Saturday: Protest at a Time & Place of Our Choosing

Keep your eyes glued to that set..
Your corporate burger, beer, and boob-tube
will numb your mind, and ruin your body.

The corporate-state puts you out to pasture, pacifiying your mind with schlock, drivel, and sensationalism. All the while It fattens you up on artery clogging fast food.

Pretty soon your type will be too dumb, slow, and fat to stand up for your rights.

perhaps pretty soon is now.

you are probably a slave to the state and dont even know it.

Put your head in the sand, go back to watching your corporate sponsored news.

Why don't you seek help? You're obviously disturbed by people's right to self-expression. Our ancestors fought long and hard for the right to protest, from the Revolution to Civil Rights. What you are seeing now is that same tradition. We are not thugs. We are decent people committed to the ideals of justice and peace through non-violence and there are millions of us. We are not sitting back on our asses watching the world on TV. We understand history, believe in the sanctity of human life, and respect the rights of other people to their own self-determination. What Bush & Co. are doing is an international crime, and what the protesters around the world are doing is completely legal. According to our Constitution, people have the right to peaceful assembly. Maybe you should move to Russia, where after decades of communism (and depression), people believe that self-expression through political protest has no value. You might feel right at home. It's certainly not the world I want to live in.

Kiel, you're taking the high-road here and supposing that none of us are well-paid professionals with advanced degrees making damned good salaries and living responsible, modest lifes. Well, some of us are. Are you? I doubt it. Your stereotyping is shameful. Why are you so proud to flaunt your own ignorance and arrogance? You must be a serious dolt.

The idiot FReeper who wrote "cut the wires" is just trying to incite someone to hurt him/herself.

Take an old pair of shoes, tie them together, and toss them up and over the wires if you want to disable the Muni buses.

I'm not a hateful person..
I just HATE you fools...
You cry about the war and protest the war to no end..
Now you cite the Constitution..Where the hell would you be right now if the soldiers didn't fight for your right to bad-mouth the President and the US.
Why don't you protest Sadam and the way he's treated his own people..
Arn't you glad the US won't gas you like he did to the Kurds?
How about some of his loyalist who will kill you and your family because you spoke bad of the President.
It was a war that established the US and do you think that they protested back then..
Your just a idiot who listens to the drivel that the Berzerkly school of Idiots teach...stupid leftist and even dumber commies..

If you don't like what the US is doing why don't you leave..nothing is stopping you..maybe your just as stupid as I think you are...

Try protesting some of the actions that Sadam had done to Iraqii people...

You'd be fertilizer now..

All protest that occur in Iraq are government sanctioned..they control everything..At least here you can protest without fear of being killed..maybe hit but not killed.

Why don't you protest the actions of Sadam...afraid? try protesting in Iraq...are you afraid of doing that.?.why didn't you go join the human shields..afraid...?

Don't cut the MUNI cables!!! That does serious damage to the city and they won't permit any marches after that kind of stunt. (Plus, I need MUNI to get home and so do a lot of the protesters!) Non-violence and non-destruction is the ONLY way to go here. Everyone is documenting all this with video cameras, which does us a lot of good considering how fucked up the cops are acting. Let them discredit themselves. They're doing it right now anyway. We don't need to do anything but peacefully protest and we'll get our message across, just like the millions of other protests around the world. Chill...

I make a very large chunk of bank every two weeks..
Factually, I enjoy all the protests as I make a lot of money..
Are you thinking I'm a cop..??well your close..I sell munitions to the cops..and you fools are making me rich!!!!....
Keep up the great work..I have some new stuff that I'm trying to sell to the cops..
You think the stuff out there now is bad wait until a department buys this new stuff...
You guys will wish you were dead.!!!
Thanks for paying for my new SUV..

Well said Kiel, except for a few logical errors. First, a person full of hate for a particular sect of the population could be aptly called a hateful person. Second, there is a great difference between a war for freedom and a war for imperialism. Never has Saddam Hussein threatened the freedom of Americans. Kuwaitis? Yes. Israelis? Definitely. Not you or I however.
Third, it is difficult for me to understand why Americans would protest the actions of their governors if they weren't interested in creating a better nation. To say that they merely hate America is a little short-sighted. Fourth, the American government provided Hussein with weapons for an entire decade even while he was gassing the Kurds. And yes, they did know that this was happening.
Fourth, you seem to be confused about the potential effects of a peaceful resolution to this conflict with Iraq. The loss of civil rights including the right to protest is not something that Hussein is threatening Americans with. Your argument about "try protesting in Iraq" is nonsensical, at best. True, Hussein is a brutal dictator, but the U.S. has supported many a brutal dictator in its history.
Lastly, while the U.S. did have to fight a war to win its independence, protest was widespread at that time. Not all colonists were for the war or for independence. Furthermore, before the U.S. declared independence there were many acts of protest and civil disobedience because of the French and Indian War and because of the unjust policies of the british imperial gov't. Acts of CD such as the boston tea party that established our freedoms are very similar to the acts of CD that bay area residents are practicing today.
Get your facts straight before you start spouting your usual line of profane accusations. Thanks.

Kiel belongs to the same little group the Unabomber came from. Just a sad lonely person divorced from reason and feeling, with delusions of grandeur. Kiel doesn't represent any sane person's point of view. It's probably better not to reply.

Actually, kiel, I did protest Saddam in the late 80's. More specifically I protested the support Saddam had from the US to "gas his own people."

The logic of Saddam is bad, so therefore we are good to invade Iraq is equivalent to a murdering saying "hey, they guy I killed was BAD. What's the problem?"

This particular type of righteous logic is exactly what tyrants, despot, and empires always say.


... Oh yeah, don't go after public transportation. After all, public transportation reduces the amount oil we use. You know... the Blood for Oil thing.

Judging from your remedial command of the English language, U.S. history, etc., you must be either:
(a.) a cop
(b.) a thirteen year old boy, or
(c.) a massive middle-aged loser still living at home.

Brain power. That's what those folks at Berkeley have and you don't. They're creating scientists, scholars, and educators and what do you do? Drive an SUV? Just like the commercials on TV?? Wow, how original and exciting!!!

If you hate us all so much, then why not fuck off and go elsewhere? I think we're all done wasting our time with you, dimwit.

REAL AMERICANS ...

... support protesters, because this country is founded on revolution and protest

... support protests even so far as overthrowing a government that is corrupt, because thats what the Declaration of Independence says is morally right

... do not bootlick the government agents

... do not kiss the ass of rich people -- all people are equal

... do not support martial law, or police state tactics, or suppression of political protest

MY SUGGESTION TO RIGHT-WINGERS AND OTHERS WHO OPPOSE THE PROTESTS?

GO TO A COUNTRY WHERE YOUR ATTITUDE IS APPRECIATED. THE TALIBAN GOVERNMENT HAS A SIMILAR OUTLOOK ON DISSENT AS YOU DO. I THINK YOU NEED TO GET THE FUCK OUT OF *MY* AMERICA AND GO JOIN A COUNTRY WHERE GOVERNMENT BOOTLICKING IS WELCOMED.

YOU ARENT AN AMERICAN YOU ARE A COWARD

I AM NO PATRIOT
BUT I LOVE AMERICA
AND I LOVE AMERICANS
DOWN WITH THIS GOVERNMENT

You claim that you love America yet you claim dissent..
I am an American and I believe in whats occuring.
Yes, I am a Patriot...
If you think I'm bootlicking then your wrong.because you claim that your allowed to protest your government..What gave you that right?
Who fought for you to have that right..??
It was the soldiers that fought and died for that right which you are abusing right now.
Yes, you do have the right to voice your displeasure..
But when you take to destroying property and injuring law enforcement your rights just faded..

Protest all you want but as I've said what good does it do?? It make you feel good..nothing else.

As to where you learn this drivel Berzkely is a good place to start.. You claim that Berzkely enriches your thinking...but some of the instructors are commies and have the socialist thinking..
Your young and impressionable and really haven't lived.

The fools are also trying to teach you that the Holocaust never happend..try asking someone who is Jewish and lost family..
Some are treaching that Hilter has a great man..

And you claim that I don't think..I truly think that your the clueless one and should take your head out of the sand.

yes. you are right.

and it's amazing how vehemently some will argue that this is not the case.

We will be too fat, to stupid, and too poisoned by our own filth.

I would really recommend everyone check out the onion http://www.theonion.com . They have some really poignant commentary about the war, such as

"Supreme Court Deems American People Unfit to Govern"

and

"US forms own UN"


To everyone angry at Keil...

now, now play nice. He's just ignorant and pity-able. He's been brainwashed just like the military and police. Poor Keil...

One should never initiate the use of force. But force should be used against those who do. Consequently the US brief, but intense use of force against one of the world's great tyrants is certainly justified. Just ask the millions who have suffered beyond what any Berkeley liberal could possibly imagine....In any case these "civil disobedient" protests are, thankfully, just pi$$ing in the wind. Enjoy your urine soaked clothes....I'll just make sure not to be in the city this weekend.

NOTICE TO PEACE OFFICERS: If your integrity permits you compassionate discretion, then for love of liberty & humane neighbourliness, extend mercy to the gentle, even the gently obstinate... ordered to charge and beat people, or charge & surround people, perhaps you'd move without menace, and slowly. Give people a chance to escape... and while we appreciate your committment to rule & order, we fear your forbidding other ways before you. Cut slack, please, not people. As to "untimely & incivil" provocation from within our gathering, rather than beating the lot of us for it, give us a beat to set ourselves right... who'd betray our safety, & subvert our purpose... such as these, we'd not have them with us, but rather in your care. And especially don't shoot a priest; it might be I.

that's the sort of person at an ivy league school? That was a bundle of cliches with no logical thread. He was saying that the US went into Iraq for humanitarian reasons. However, this was not the reason cited for going in. It was because Bush claimed that Iraq possessed WMDs that posed a threat to the US. The people of the U.S. don't support 'progressive' wars to straighten out the internal affairs of other countries, because there are about 40 other dictatorships that should have been intervened in at the same time.

Defense is the only reason for the U.S. to declare war. Have any WMDs been used, or even been found? There is a distinct absence of reports about the nuclear facilities that Bush was warning us existed, but that the inspectors couldn't find. Where's the smallpox? duh

I became very upset after reading what was posted here. People like Kiel accuse the protesters of being ignorant, and they do the same to him. It seems to me that all this name calling bullshit frm both ends is ridiculous. It gets us no where. It seems to me that we are all ignorant about this war, no matter how much we have read, heard or seen. I have been studying U.S. - middle eastern relations for the past year and a half, and despite everything I have learned,the only thing that seems relevant now, is that people are dying in this war. No one knows what the fuck to do. Protesting is within our rights as citizens, as is "supporting our country". I personally oppose this war. But instead of being angry at those who don't, I try to understand why. If that sounds like hippy bullshit, I'm sorry. I am only 16 and I would think that those of you who posted would be a little more mature.

I have been studying U.S. - Middle East relations since 1976, and I still feel ignorant about it. Ask any expert in the field and they will tell you: The only thing you can be sure about the M.E. is that you cannot make predictions.

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Look bez, this is the way it works on a website where political views can be posted anonymously:

Dissidents discuss strategy, share information, and plan community activities - lately these have been quite globally politcal in nature, but in the past they have also centered around community events and planning too.

The snipers begin posting agitprop. Almost entirely in direct proportion to confrontational actions perpetrated by riot police against protesters. They may or may not be cops, but they are definitely cop-supporters, especially when they're beating and suppressing legal assemblies.

Notice how name-calling back and forth arguments are almost always initiated by these people. Notice how often their posts include personal threats ("i.e. you're going to wish you were dead!!!... " and "why don't you go be a human shield"). Notice also, how often these comments invariably include race-baiting comments, "dirty pinko commie" baiting, and inexplicable class-baiting references to how much money people make or what jobs they have.

Notice that the sniper comments usually have the effect of initiating self-justification. It is because these are attacks, often personal attacks, and really just thinly veiled insults.

The general thrust of them is "go home and die" or "love it or leave it". What is it about the right-winger barin that prohibits it from making an argument without attacking the character of the other person? Why is it so difficult to make your point without bringing bodily fluids or excrement into the picture?

Please notice how OUR responses to people like "Kiel" or "A. Rand" are *almost* always peppered throughout with some attempt at factual assertions and reasonable arguments. Arguments which, even for a 16 year old must be considered legitimate ones, n'est pas?

The reason the FBI and domestic counterintelligence forces put these people here for us to reckon with is because their policy has been, since the initial directive of J. Edgar Hoover, to foment dischord and hatred along class, race, and sex lines within communities of dissent. It works, or at least it used to.

Are people like Kiel working for the FBI? God only knows, but why not assume it until we see proof otherwise. When forums for discussion are hi-jacked by loutish brawl-starters, systematically, in predictable patterns, it is up to you to decide if these people are one-man missions of right-wing vengeance, or if they're sociology majors who took the lure of a steady govt. job. Memebers of the latter often found themselves infiltrating dissident gorups int he 60s and even frequently becoming the very leaders fo such groups. Their goal was always the same: prmote a rapid increase in militancy, force the expulsion of the rational, moderate, productive members of the group, and create a situation where police force could be brought to bear against the group without question. The same happened with the editorial staffs of underground newspapers and magazines. The same policy was used against the Black Panthers, Martin Luther King Jr., and Malcolm X, for the siple reason that those leaders were seriously considered viewed as agents of the USSR working within the USA.

Most people don't believe that such email post snipers are actually agents. They're probably right, but as the trends we see continue, more and more of them will be. Boston Indymedia seems to have been completely take over by such people and now "anonymous" posts are being traced back to their IPs of origin, allowing a coordinated intimidation of posters.

It's only a short matter of time before anti-wr protesters are characterized as "terrorist sympathizers" in exactly the same tone of hysteria with which "communist infiltrators" were once sought out. So people who come on this board and post messages like "I hope you die" and "I'll kill you" are going to be met with some modest amount of piss and vinegar back at them. This is exactly what they desire, to whip up into a frenzy and make us feel somehow demoralized, and that America is against us. They will try to get the whites, blacks, and hispanics at each other's throats, and they will try to get the middle class and the working class (what's the difference anymore?) to suspect each other's commitments.

But never mind the FBI, CIA, or NSA, or TIA. Fuck all that. The reason GOD put these snipers here, is so that we newcomers to dissent in America can hone our rhetorical skills picking them off one by one. When cops are trained, they go through exercises where their buddy comes at them simulating crazy, angry drivers, criminals, and even protesters. The point of the exercise is that the cop should keep his or her cool and execute their best options in as controlled and safe a manner as possible. This is what we do to. Loner weirdo "commie-pinko" types come at us with the most naked & idiotic provocations, and we by and large keep our cool, then trounce them with the truth.

If there weren't so much *overwhelming* evidence, documentation, and clear moral purpose behind the anti-war movement, a lot of us wouldn't be out here. But the fact is, it's not really a quesiton of "which side are you on"? - there is only one side, and that is the side of the law. The anti-war protesters are trying to uphold the law, pure and simple. It's not an argument that people can be "convinced" by, it is a straightforward execution of justice which we are fully and righteously ordained by the Constitution and our laws to do. The pro-war people HAVE NO ARGUMENT, they have merely a pack of slogans, postures, and "attitudes". The one thing they desperately lack are FACTS or FULLY FLESHED OUT ARGUMENTS. That is why, in the court of this domestic uprising, in the arena of public opinion - THEY ARE SUPPORTING A SINKING SHIP.

We're not out here protesting because we think we have a clue as to what's going on in the Middle East, but because we are ABSOLUTELY SURE that the war in Iraq has and will continue to have very very detrimental effects on our actual lives here and now. Don't give me that "we can't know all of the story" as some kind of excuse for not having an opinion.

This isn't some kind of balanced debate, in case you haven't noticed. The situation has deterioirated into a point where people are paying with their lives for these unknown reasons you speak of, and also we are paying for it here with the sacrifice of the rights which people in this country fought and died for are being destroyed and stolen from us.

The situation has deteriorated to the point where people actually are resorting to street protests to try to make their opinions heard because we have come to a place where we really feel we are not being listened to as a population. This is unprecedented on this level, these are the biggests protests domestically, and internationally, the world has EVER seen.

Now before you write off all those people, realize that it takes a lot of brains to care enough about to be informed enough about foreign and domestic policy to actually disrupt your own life to go out and protest. It can be very embarrassing if you'r enot used to it, also very frightening when the riot cops show up with armor, batons, and "Gear". Seeing yourslef slandered in the press, and encountering taunts and provocation from "right-wing" types is not easy. People who suggest it is really don't know. There is a tremendous concentration of smart people in this movement, and that's why it's not self-destructing along class/race lines as the snipers keep hoping it would. Nor is it going to go away any time soon, as our corporate paymasters are hoping it will. Why? Cause this shit stinks to high heaven and what's more our economy is dragging our real, tangible quality of life into the mire. It's just too much too fast. People are really pissed.

So ignore, or fight with the freepers, snipers, right-wingers, whatever you want to call them. That's why there here. To fight. To make people like you upset and confused about the "in-fighting" and the "name-calling". Real commitment to values means you really stand behind your views and you fight for them. When people come to you and insult you and question your legitmacy, you're going to fight back, unless you're a punk. If you're weak, you'll get flustered and resort to below the belt hits. Most of us don't.

In the days of the old BBS's this is how conversations developed on the public boards. Flaming was a common way of comunicating. In a one-on-one war of words, the intelligent usually win. No harm done. Only when the sniping freeper hacks band together and gang up on people with the support of major media money are they able to actually dominate public ideas - or lack thereof.

Bring them on. We can't make these people go away, we can't ban them - it's an anonymous board. Last week I watched one guy try to singlehandedly shut down this IMC by auto-posting "Fuck You" messages featuring Saddam and telling us we are all Saddam-lovers.

In Iraq, people like Kiel and A. Rand are the people who were members of the Fedayeen Saddam and most loyally supported the brutal policies oftheir beloved leader. You can find them in every country, always eager to be a part of mass hysteria and egg it on. They're the ones who are holding the burning torches and screaming "kill the witch" in every time period. They're the same people who are currently looting, killing and raping in the streets of Baghdad in the wake of any civil authority while US troops stand down. Yes, they are bootlickers. What's worse, they want to beat US up too, and throw all of us in jail if they could. Jails in which THEY would no doubt serve as the wardens. Bring it on, snipers! I've got something for you!

They're going to force their way in here anyway, so let's use them for target practice and "kill 'em again" like the Eric B and Rakim song.

-dumpy

well said Dumpy. Thanks for the reminders. Now, must go re-read autobiographies of black panthers...

I detect in the call for unpermitted marches that the real target of them is not the war or the warmakers, but the SFPD and the SF "establishment".

We are at a crossroads at which we can either win or lose much of the support and sympathy which we have won among broad masses of people. We will keep them if we are able to articulate appropriate goals and longterm strategies, and to explain clearly, patiently why the war was wrong, why it remains wrong, and why after it is over it will still have been wrong. By doing so we may move peple from worrying "which country is next?" to saying "None shall be next!"
We will have taken many steps backward if we allow ourselves to be perceived as tantruming

Some of this was discussed earlier by others who had some good things to say. Here is the URL to that discussion, because it is very hard to find otherwise:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/03/1589236.php

As I entitled this, several comments:

1. Who is Richard Bruce?
2. Don't put anti-government looters in te same category as the bootlickers. Some maybe, but some maybe just that, anti-government looters. We don't know enough to say either way. And the press is no help, because they are stuck between two different imperialist agendas: one: Let's just plunder this country and ,move on, and, two: What is called "nation-building" or more realistically restoration of law and order, so that we can plunder systematically.
3. Why is this Eula spam stuff still up.
4. Don't do anything tat will dsrupt the average perosn's enjoyment of life or rigth to get around. Don't disrupt MUNI period. Do direct action that will have an impact on the war and the corporate and government fuckers. Do things in the streets that trash them and their profit-centers and command and control, as they say.
Also on Monday morning go to Bollinger Canyon Road (at Sunset, immediately East of Hwy 680), in San Ramon (a short shuttle from Walnut Creek BART) to blockade Chevron/Texaco. And join people later in the month in Sunnyvale at the largest war contractor in the Bay Area, the Lockheed Marin Corporation.

Richard Bruce is a deputy chief in charge of special operations, liaison with the FBI in San Francisco. Many people saw him during the escalation protests, and his presence usually signaled that you were about to be mass arrested or someone's sound system was going to be confiscated in just a minute. He slowly cruises around in a Chevy Tahoe with FBI agents who are difficult to photograph due to the dark windows, and he wears a black hat: http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/03/1583174.php

hey I was just wondering if the marches are happening (tonight the 12th) - I wanted to get out there but I don't knbow where to go. call me if anyone knows..thanks!!
(415)531-6915

It looks like the heavy rain doused the spirits of people. Its good: we should pick our battlefields.

This war is far from over, and our war is far from over.