Magistrate Judge Seeborg orders handwriting samples of AETA4

You keep claiming they had no part in the death threats, physical assault, or printing of flyers with implied death threats. So providing a handwriting sample will only exonerate them.

....Right?

fuck off dude. it's intrusive and harassing, and it's not anything that anybody should have to put up with for merely exercising his/her right to free speech and free expression.

this entire case is an assault on dissent

no, I think the surveillance tape at Kinko's showed that they did the flyers left at the cafe. The attorneys Tony Serra et al. seem to be using a free speech defense, and isn't trying to claim that they aren't animal activists.

But they are trying to say that there is no evidence that they were the ones involved with the incendiaries at the environmental health professor and stem cell researcher's houses, and that other cell biologist a few months where there was a scuffle on her porch. They are claiming that a bunch of other folks, who perhaps shared similar objectives, were the ones who did that.

Isn't the handwriting sample supposed to show who wrote various scraps of paper found at their house or something?

I don't see why anybody thinks is a bad idea. Handwriting analysis is a strong science, and this could be very strong exculpatory evidence for the defense. Pretty simple: since they didn't do this stuff, their handwriting won't match. This will therefore totally screw up the prosecutor's case and create a "reasonable doubt" for the jury.

It's a win-win!

Handwriting analysis is not a "strong science." All law journals demonstrate this. In fact, there is huge debate on the Daubert issues of handwriting in the Ninth Circuit.

The above comment from "AETA4 Support" is not from anyone affiliated with the AETA4 Support Team. This is a long-standing COINTELPRO tactic of sending false letters and messages, and is documented very well in the work of Ward Churchill and Jim VanderWall.

ps. distrust of or refusal to cooperate with a fucked up, coercive, invasive legal system is not evidence of guilt

If I were sitting on a jury and the defendant refused to provide a sample of their handwriting, i would see guilty written all over the defendant's face. The thing is the AETA4 are guilty and just trying to delay the inevitable. If they were innocent this would not be an issue.

the defendants haven't refused anything, troll.
I see you commented the same sort of nonsense on past posts about the case, with nothing to say, just trolling for an arguments. I was just pointing out the simple fact that refusing to cooperate with a fucked up system is not evidence of anything.

Realistically, we shouldn't be debating "innocence" or "guilt" here as that is not is what at issue. What IS at issue is what types of crimes are being criminalized as part of the "Green is the New Red" paradigm which is intended to stifle dissent.

We're talking about outlawing chalking, protesting, chanting and in the Feds words, that while they were disrupting an animal enterprise they "placed a person in reasonable fear of death of, and serious bodily injury to that person, a member of the immediate family of that person and a spouse and intimate partner of that person by a course of conduct involving threats, vandalism, property damage, criminal trespass, harrassment, and intimidation".

Sidewalk chalking? Chanting? Threats? "Harrassment?" What ever happened to free speech? These are crimes now?

Threats and harassment have never been part of free speech, and there have been a number of SCOTUS decisions reflecting that. Say what you will about the dubious constituional status of the AETA, but don't pretend like invading someones home and assaulting them is somehow protected speech.

The debate is still open as to whether or not handwriting analysis is accurate enough to convict any individuals based upon similarities in handwriting to a siezed document. Neither side of the "pro vs. con" arguement is correct if only extreme positions are argued; "Handwriting samples are always 100% accurate.", or the opposing view; "Handwriting samples are NEVER accurate." Sorry, both sides of this extreme positioning are wrong.

SOMETIMES handwriting analysis can be used in court to connect an individual to a particular written letter. That is one reason that professional criminals (kidnappers, real terrorists, etc...) and other amatuer lawbreakers (who DO NOT want to be caught!!) use letters cut from magazines that are then glued to blank paper to avoid either handwriting analysis capture or typewriter/computer printer recognition and capture.

If you think i am lying and being a troll, maybe i could find some online info where handwriting analysis was used by police to convict some other people of various crimes. This doesn't only apply to animal rights activists, these methods of capture are old and were used often enough that people devised other methods of leaving messages.

Have lost my patience with "leftists" in general because one cannot tell these people anything without being accused of being an FBI agent, infiltrator, agitator, instigator or some other tyoe of troll who enjoys pointing out the mistakes of others. Even if it is in their own best interest, the leftists do not like being "told what to do", though they keep on making mistakes that cost the movement time with constant efforts of jail support.

Yes, the FBI will try whatever means are available to arrest and convict animal rights activists for whatever it is they are doing. This will include handwriting analysis, so for future actions, PLEASE try the method of cutting and pasting letters (from magazines) for ANY communiques or messages, even if it takes longer and is a bother, being tied up in court is an even worse bother and consumer of time.

It is not enough to talk about fairness when dealing with the feds. Of course they are not being fair, they never were fair to any other activists either! What gets me is the display of shock and surprise from the activist community that the feds are now using another old trick to capture animal rights activists.

Nor is it fair for the CIA's unmanned drone planes to fly over villages in Afghanistan and bomb local civilians along with a few Taliban fighters who happen to be standing around together outside waiting for food, water or some other delivery. Or being in a funeral march. This system of government has NO RESPECT for ANY person who decides to challenge their authority, so don't act so surprised when the feds try another tactic that was in their playbooks for years!!

Maybe i am just a depressed cynic who has given up on activism, and sees activists as silly positive thinkers who are wasting their time fighting an industrial system that is doomed to fail in a matter of time. Am now more into the "end times" theory of global catastrophe that will end all forms of institutional oppression once and for all. Once the system collapses, all people will find themselves sharing a status of equality with one another AND the animal kingdom. That is truly universal justice for one and all! We spend too much time on "fixing" the problems, when the Earth has had enough of human activities, we will all be dealt with!

Once the Earth gets a makeover from sea level rise, the courts and police in general will be far too busy chasing looters and rioters to try to decipher some activist's handwriting samples!!

Yes, I suppose you could be called cynical.

1. you assume that the people targeted with handwriting analysis did anything. that's fucked up because it could have been anyone and the feds just seemingly picked 4 out of a hat. for example, all the demonstrations the aeta4 were accused of being present aat allegedly were attended by dozens of others.

2. this is a newswire and thus the original posted news about the case. I don't know why you assume the person is shocked or surprised when they simply wrote a short post. Many AR activists are well aware of the other fucked up things the government does, the abuses of the prison industrial complex, militarism, sexism, etc.

What happened to the handwriting samples? Were they messages or just scraps of paper? Maybe i didn't read the entire statement! Internal criticism isn't always initially cynical, though confusion after repeated attempts at understanding result in apathy and tiredness..

Best wishes in your struggles. All i was saying is try to be careful and leave as few verifiable clues as possible. Don't be surprised when the feds use small fragments of evidence, maybe that is all they have. The mistake to try to disprove handwriting patterns as junk science could be easily avoided by taking care to not leave any samples there to begin with!

People don't want to lose their freedom over some instances where three activists go and do something, then one or two turns on the other in order to get a lighter sentence. No wonder why i'm avoiding any and all animal rights activists like the plague! Never can tell who is who these days!!

We are told if only we try harder and fight til our last breath will conditions improve. We heard that the "hope" brought by Obama would free us from endless protests against U.S. military occupations in Iraq and Afghanistan, and we get more of the same!!

Same goes for industrial animal feedlots and pharmaceutical animal testing labs that use toxic and outdated science to further promote their products. Yet we canot dismantle and deconstruct the industrial feedlot system or we will be taking away jobs and livelihoods? We cannot replace industrial feedlots and agribusiness with natural hunter and gathering systems or people will starve? We need to dispell the myths that traditional pre-industrial ways of food gathering are obselete..