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Indybay Feature

Timber cutting continues in and near the Sequoia National Monument!

by Mike Robe
Despite a recent federal court ruling, timber cutting continues in and near the Sequoia National Monument. Sierra Nevada Earth First! activists were in the woods again this past weekend surveying timber sale units in the Frog, White, and Ice sale areas. Pictures illistrate the story told.
Despite a recent federal court ruling, timber cutting continues in and near the Sequoia National Monument. On September 9th, Justice Charles Breyer from the US District Court for the northern district of California halted logging on a 2,000 acre commercial logging project called the Saddle fuel reduction sale. However, the ruling left open the fate of the Ice, White, and Frog timber sales, all of which are areas contiguous with or in the immediate proximity of the Saddle project. The focus of Breyer’s ruling was the absence of credible scientific evidence in the Forest Service’s guidelines for these timber sales. Of particular concern was the critical condition of the Pacific fisher population in the southern Sierras. Further decrease in canopy cover and disruption of fisher habitat could likely bring about the extinction of the species (the Bush administration has refused to accept the recommendation of scientists for listing the southern fisher as an endangered species). In addition Breyer held that the Forest Service had not established a credible scientific basis for cutting trees up to thirty inches in diameter (94 inches in circumference). Given the growing conditions in the Sierras trees of this size can be up to two hundred years old.

Sierra Nevada Earth First! activists were in the woods again this past weekend surveying timber sale units in the Frog, White, and Ice sale areas. The following is one activist’s account (the activist preferred to remain nameless):

We were finishing two days of surveying; we had seen some areas of uncut, healthy forests and some dried out, damned forests that had already been lost. On Sunday at 5 pm, in one of the Ice units, we witnessed helicopter logging first hand. We were all nearly in tears. In fact, it made us sick to our stomachs. We had just hiked through pristine forest, some of the best, oldest and most beautiful forest we had seen so far--heavy canopy cover, cool and damp down below with lots of moss and lichens, an open forest floor without too much undergrowth or small trees—these were steep slopes with old, rotting trees, a thick forest carpet, big trees. Perfect habitat for the endangered pacific fisher, and a home to innumerable animals and plants. Then we heard the choppers and headed up the road. I remember seeing a golden eagle soaring up above—she must have been crying too. We moved in carefully and watched as an identical forest area, a half a mile or so away from where we had just been, was torn to shreds. A red and white helicopter swept in low; men in orange vests hooked up the big trees to the helicopter’s cable and the chopper flew them out to the loading area. With a few limbs still attached, the poor trees looked like corpses, or lynching victims, or cows with hooks in their heels, hanging above the killing floor, waiting to be slaughtered. You don’t think too much about how much a ninety foot tall, 200 year old Ponderosa Pine weighs. But you sure do when a chopper drops it in the loading area and the ground just shakes.

We’re a pretty loud and outrageous crew of forest defenders, but nobody had much to say after seeing that level of chaos and destruction. The car ride down the mountain was pretty fucking quiet. Maybe everybody was thinking what I was thinking—“what are we doing to ourselves?” Or maybe they were wondering what anybody could do against that level of an attack on Mother Earth. Or maybe they just couldn’t think of any words to fit the magnitude of that destruction. I know we were also meditating on how to stop it, cause that’s all that counts.

The forests up here are criss-crossed with hundreds of miles of logging roads. Quads, dirt bikes, and off-roaders hurl around spewing up dust. Hunters blast away at whatever animal is “in season.” But I have never, ever seen anything like what I saw yesterday. I don’t think the fisher has a chance.

Readers are urged to contact the Sierra Club (information [at], Earth Justice (info [at], and/or Sequoia Forest Keeper (ara [at], and encourage them to petition the court to stop all logging in the fisher habitat of the Sequoia National Forest.
§Fuck capitalism not your Mother!
by Mike Robe
§Working hard to kill our forests.
by Mike Robe
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Comments (Hide Comments)
by mike robe
Reasonable Person: assuming your comment was genuine and not just baiting, you should consider a few facts. First, the eagle will quite likely have better opportunities to hunt, and that's exactly the problem. If loss of forest canopy allows it to more successfully hunt the pacific fisher, then the fisher is likely to disappear. I'll be optimistic and bet that you probably do care about the disappearance from the face of the earth of animal species. If so, you better join us because the court's ruling was specifically concerned with loss of canopy cover and the likely demise of the fisher. But I imagine that you are really concerned with human ego--the opportunity of humans to profit from the forest without a care for the fisher or the trees or the forest as a whole.

As for the trees I confess to being sympathetic. I like trees. They're beautiful. I like the sound of the wind in the trees. I like how they smell and how the color of the bark contrasts with the blue of the sky and the green of the needles. I like thiniing about the physics involved in such a massive, heavy creation standing upright, especially in powerful sierra storms. I like lots of trees--the more the better. And so do all the species that interact in the web of life that makes up a healthy forest.

Just say it like you mean it the tree is a tree "nothing more and nothing less"--what you mean to say is that the tree--in and of itself-- is nothing. Its only meaning can lie in how it is useful to humans.

You are a victim of ego-centrism and anthropocentrism (look it up). You live in a dream like matrix believeing that all of this natural beauty was meant for humans to use and abuse. We can tear it up, chop it down, hunt it--it doesn't matter because it was all designed for us in the first place. Well, I can't argue that people with that point of view rule the world. And that's why the last few islands of nature are still being exploited.

But the reality of bio-centrism (look it up) is beginning to bite back. We're just a part of Life, not the masters. And if we don't get hip to that pretty soon the effects of our ignorance will be our undoing.

We are just human animals, nothing more and nothing less. Our interests are no better or worse than the interests of trees, eagles, and fishers. They have just as much right to live as any human does. As a matter of fact, humans could disappear and the biosphere would be none the worse for it. Actually, it would be much better. Compare that with what would happen if ants disappeared! No, I don't hate humans, just our ignorant actions that destroy more and more of life.

We have unique traits that make us special, and so do they. It is the life of each and the life of the whole that is precious. Come to think of it, if you believe in the Bible, you'll recall that God put an everlasting fire around the tree of life so that humans couldn't get their hands on that.

Maybe we will learn that some day.

Finally, for what it is worth, I probably pay more taxes than you do; I haven't gathered up the courage of Thoreau (look it up) to stop supplying the government with funds for illegal war and more subsidization of oil drilling. But that's another story.

Wishing you some deeper capacity for reason.

by Atheist
It's obvious from the photos that they're thinning stagnated stands of small trees. Helicopters yarding is low impact because it doesn't gouge the ground. Whatever the ecological concerns are, the impact of the thinning harvest is nothing that could compare with a catastrophic fire caused by overcrowded, sickly trees.
by abomb
Dear Atheist:
You are wrong. Point blank, your post wreaks of capitalistic ideals....
The earth and you are to live in harmony, the earth is NOT your slut!
Let us put you in one extreme… Atheist, i am guessing you are a Christian and have a firm belief in God. So then God created all, right? What right would you have to not only harvest for your splendor (gluttony), but to rape the earth of its resources? It is amazing the total selfish disregard for life, in a world which you were created to live in harmony? HOLD ON...!!! Wait Atheist.... I can hear God calling you now.... He said, "AAAAAAAAtheist, AAAAAAAAAAtheist... my child, yooooou are going to hell wearing a short bus helmet."
anyway, my point is this: whether you are an atheist, a Buddhist, or a pedestrian we must survive. To survive we must live in harmony with our environment. Destroying forest floors and thinning the forest canopy to less than 40% is NOT harmony.
I think a good starting point to our solution of harmony would be if we stopped sales in and around the Sequoia National Monument.


P.S. Here are some photos of stump/tree trunks that have been or are marked to be cut. The legal limit of a stump that can be cut is up to 30 inches in diameter. Circumference is legal up to 90 inches. Here are some photos that show trees marked or cut illegally.
by immortal technique
Reasonable Person--your comment should not have been removed. Editor should restore it. Respond to Mike Robe rather than evading the main points.

Atheist--go up to the forests. check it out for yourself. see if these are little sickly trees. i think you represent the forest disservice or the timber companies. both those people and their king guru idiots mark rey and george bush know that the only way they can defend this level of destruction in the forests is to claim they are preventing even greater destruction--forests fires. "have to cut down the forest in order to save it"--sounds like mylai.

ok--so go look for yourself. i wish they were taking out little sick trees. i'd help them. they're not. actually they are often leaving little and sick trees behind and taking out healthy 100 inch diameter trees, as a-bomb's photo shows.

why? cause these bring big dollars to sierra pacific forest products. same reason they waited to log and the forest disservice gave them extensions--to wait for timber prices to rise. so, the bottom line is: fuck the forest, take the money.

sure aint nothin divine about that--hence your moniker a-theist, against the divine.

do you even give a shit about anything except money.
by Atheist
abomb - An atheist one who does not believe in any god. That means no Christian god and no enviro-fundamentalist god.

30" DBH, 90" circumference trees aren't old growth. The picture of the landing shows loads of small logs. Why no pictures of big logs? They'd be posted if they existed, since it would be a much better visual. There is no harvest mark visible on the picture of the 100" circumference tree. Are you trying to put one over? 40% canopy retention is high retention, especially since after thinning canopy closure increases at a typical rate of 2%/year.

immortal technique - you obviously don't know the difference between circumference and diameter. 100" DBH trees are not being harvested.

You guys have no objection to spongeing money, only to earning it.
by of forests, wetlands, childrens lungs, etc..
Coming from the coastal regions where forest defenders are strugling to save the less than 5% old growth redwoods from the corporate butchers of Maxxam/PL, the evidence is cleary against the corporate timber hacksquad and in favor of forest defense activists..

The myth of the Bush regimes "Healthy Forest Initiative" is that thinning the forests involves removing underbrush, not old growth conifers. Underbrush vegetation is the fire ladder that takes over former forest habitat following clearcuts. Underbush causes superhot fires that damage the conifers who are resistant and dependant on low temperature ground fires that were suppressed for decades by forest mismanagement..

Corporate timber cannot make any money from harvesting underbrush, their goal is to cut the largest conifer trees standing in a cut, ironically the ones with the broadest canopy that provide the greatest shade and moisture protection from superhot fires. The Bush regimes actual forest plan would be more adequately named the "Unhealthy Forest Initiative that Benefits Corporate Timber"..

Recognize that corporations are a recent creation of capitalist society and do not represent anything natural or even rational..

Also recognize that indigenous people lived in these same forests for THOUSANDS of years without being destructive forces. People also had the need for safe warm housing, yet they avoided the complete destruction of forest ecosystems because they wanted their seventh generations in the future to enjoi the same beauty and biodiversity of the old growth forests. European immigrants have accomplished the destruction of almost 95% of the original forest cover in less than 500 years!!

How's that for accomplishment of the supposed superior culture? The concept "Manifest Destiny" is based on some colonialist eugenics fantasy of one world culture under European Christian culture, the reason the current Bush regime is giving these hydrahead timber corporations free reign of the remaining forests. It is an effort for society to control and "civilize" the old growth forests, turning them into plantations for corporate profit, replacing what was created by nature with something controlled by men with massive egos. Destruction of forests follows the path of imperialist societies from Babylon to Rome to Britain to the US..

Indigenous people of California were not Christians, though they were not athiests either. They recognized the importance of nature as sacred and vital to their way of life. They treated every living being in the forests, deserts, wetlands, etc. with both appreciation and respect. This is the most important point that both Christians and nuclear obsessed athiests have forgotten. No, not everything is relative, a nuclear plant can never replace an old growth forest, no matter how many TV screens it lights up..

In this current capitalist police state forest defenders and other activists are outgunned both in numbers and in the media. What we do have is the support of all the living beings of the forest and other ecosystems who don't want to become extinct, and all the little children in Iraq, Palestine, Houston, LA, etc who are tired of being attacked by bombs, military colonialists, smog, pollution and cancer from imperialists and their genocidal culture..

To all you fervent capitalists who continue to support the illegal Bush regime and their countless corporate minions, may you spend all eternity roiling in your graves clutching your precious worm infested US currency. Don't believe in curses? Too fucking bad, your naivity and willful ignorance of the spirit realm is your greatest weakness..

If u want a way out of the capitalist colonial curse, just look around at the beauty of nature and reject the imperialist doctrine of the Bush regime. Hug a tree, it may help u heal..

love and solidarity,

luna moth
by immortal technique
Atheist--"put one over?" that's something you people know a lot about isn't it? I'll tell you who I am. I am an Earth First! activist. Who are you? Timber company owner? Forest service bureaucrat?

There is no harvest mark in the picture because it is a close-up, idiot. The harvest mark is on the tree right above the tape and at the base of the tree. What does the picture show? 102" circumference, well above the 30" dbh allowed. the fucking forest service can't even follow its own ILLEGAL rules. maybe that's because they work for the timber interests. i mean, who did Bush appoint as the forest service director? mark rey--lifelong timber lobbyist. fox guarding the henhouse or should we say timber ceo guarding the trees?

and we found lots more stumps and uncut trees over the illegal limits.

yes--30 inches diamter breast height and even the ones you cut above that are not "old growth." all the old growth was hauled out of the forest years ago. but you people are never satisfied.

great about the canopy cover--reduce it to 40%. no scientific basis for saying this is adequate. forest service just pulled it out of thin air. anyway, at 2% a year, in 120 years the forest will be back to normal. except that you greedy bastards will find some excuse for cutting it again.

making money--well, you're right. i don't make money, at least not at the expense of the pacific fisher and forest ecosystems.

face it atheist--the days of exchanging the beauty and life of the forests (and rivers, and air, and meadows) for money are numbered. we'll either have the wisdom to stop or big mamma will stop us. i am thinking it is probably going to be the latter.

immortal technique for earth first!
by Reasonable Person
It is a tree. You cut it and it grows back. Why is that so hard to understand. As far as animals or birds being impacted, prove it. And for the anit capitalist and pro indian types (luna moth I am talking to you) the indians you talk about burned forests, murdered people and treated captured prisoners from their own indian wars as less than human.

I would rethink trying to portray indians as this noble people that loved mother earth. They used it as they needed to and as they could based on the technology of the time.

So to all those getting worked on about these trees being cut, relax, they will grow back, the forest will be healthier and in 40-60 years this area will be ready to harvest again.

Thats right I said harvest, it is a crop we are talking about.
by billious
If the trees are crops then why are we talking about forests? Really we should be talking about fields. And why should we worry about threatened animals. Shit, let's use some pesticides and get 'em the fuck out of the way. It's not the forest's health that we're interested in, it's the yield. So cut all the crops down and regrow them as fast as possible. I mean let's quit fooling around here.

As for the indians, well we got rid of most of them a long time ago to make room for fields and crops, not to mention suburbs and shopping malls. They didn't take hot showers or shoot pool or watch sitcoms so they deserved to die anyway. But reasonable person is basically right. All cultures would become just like us--fields, crops (even fields of tree crops), shopping malls, parking lots--if they just had the technology we have.

Yes, good old technology. Boy I'm glad to be the one with the technology. Once we all get clear that people like reasonable person have the truth about these things then we can use this technology to do what it was meant to do: look at porn and play video games. Or read about species that used to exist.

Really it all boils down to manifest destiny. Go figure.
by Reasonable person
Can you list any species that have died off in the last 100 years? I will be waiting.......

And lets remember, bad old technology has saved alot of indians also, provided them glasses to see, dentistry, medicine, health care, wood houses, running water, hot showers, indoor plumbing, the automobile, aircraft, and even toilet paper....So lets not be so critical of advancement, I enjoy the fact that we live tend to live alot longer than we did almost 100 years ago.

And remember, trees do grow back. They always have and they always will. So celebrate forestry and harvesting, wood is a truly renewable resource.
by Foresters are sub-human lying scum
Of all the lies this asshole is pushing, this one

"wood is a truly renewable resource."

Is the most toxic. Like all forms of modern industrialized agriculture, the current state of forestry is NOT sustainable. Soil is not this magic stuff that just keeps growing more shit forever no matter how fast or how much you take from it. A tree of old-growth size has pounds and pounds of mineral nutrients (Phosphorus, Potassium, Magnesium, Molybdenum, you name it) bound up in its flesh. Within the forest's nutrient ecology, these elements are irreplaceable. Every other commodity of plant biochemistry (sunlight, water, CO2, oxygen, nitrogen) can be replaced readily, but these are literally precious metals, and they are crucial. Look at what lives in the heart of a chlorophyll molecule, for example

Some of these elements may be locally abundant, but the full range needed by plants almost never is. Their accumulation in a given environment is a geological process, i.e. requires geological time-spans. Relative to the area spanned by the roots of an old-growth tree, the minerals in that tree represent tens or hundreds of thousands of years of accumulation, possibly millions, and this is possible because forests -- WHEN LEFT TO THEMSELVES -- recycle these minerals with mind-boggling efficiency. THEY HAVE TO

But when you cut the tree down and haul its flesh away, that mineral treasure trove is lost forever. Normally the tree would rot back into the ground and return its entire nutrient load to the forest ecology. The idea that leaving dead trees in the forest to rot is "wasteful" is just one of the many nasty fallacies foresters have built their entire profession on. Of course, they believe their own lies religiously because foresters, you see, are some seriously dishonest tree-hating assholes. Everything they'll tell you about their ethics is an exact inversion of how they actually think

The first wave of old-growth harvesting was incredibly destructive this way. Not only were the giant trees clearcut, often on steep terrain, but then the duff (the humus layer, sometimes two feet deep) was generally burned off to prevent ground fires. And THEN erosion left nothing but subsoil. These soils will take tens of thousands of years, minimum, to return to what they were, and so will the forests that live on them. The two things are inseparable.

The logging industry's marketing pitch that it replants more trees than it cuts so therefore everything's just fine is yet another of their disgusting lies. 1) softwood monoculture is a biological wasteland compared to a naturally diverse forest and 2) such plantings will NEVER achieve the scale of the trees they replace. Long before they get that big, they'll get sick from having exhausted the available precious metals, and then they'll croak and fall over -- which is just fine in and of itself. If this cycle were allowed to proceed without intervention about a hundred times the forest's nutrient ecology might actually recover

But now, you see, GP/Maxxam's subhuman tree hit-men don't allow this cycle to proceed AT ALL. They swoop in every fucking time and "harvest" those "resources" so they don't "go to waste." Someday people will finally recognize this language as the native tongue of psychotic demons. These assholes make Nosferatu look like something you'd want to have babysit your six-month-old daughter

And they get away with this "forests are renewable / replanting fixes everything" jive because you'd have to live for 500 years minimum to know what you were really sold.

The no. 1 thing to know about foresters is they are greedy fucking LIARS. Science in general has become super-corrupt and money-driven and the "science" of forestry is one of the all-time best examples. It's one of the earliest purest examples of an industry capturing its regulator (the original generation of US foresters eg Gifford Pynchot were actually sincere conservationists). Half of what foresters get paid for now is to lie to the public on behalf of Big Lumber.
by all that you are not
"Can you list any species that have died off in the last 100 years? I will be waiting......."

Ever heard of the Passenger Pigeon, fuckhead? About 100 years ago when assholes like you wrapped up your "honest work" of totally destroying this continent's most significant forest, this and many other old-growth-dependent species disappeared forever

If you like getting your teeth smashed down your pig gullet half as much as I like doing it, by all means challenge me to list more species.
by Reasonable Person
Not a forester, just someone who can see that there are more trees growing now than in any time in history. All you have to do is look at old pictures of the Sierra's and you will see far more dense groves of trees now than before. So as I said before, cut the trees, make it easier for more trees to grow and then cut them again. It isn't that big of a deal. Your grandkids will see great trees and then they can be cut for more houses or fuel or paper.
by Tia
Can you list any species that have died off in the last 100 years? I will be waiting.......

Sorry. Really dumb comment.

There have been many extinctions- not just cute furry charismatic mammals, but birds, amphibians, fish and plants. And partial extinctions- where an animal disappears from the entirety of its historic range. This still has tremendous biological implications.

Here's a list for you:
by Reasonable person
It was a bad link. That is so much b.s. it is all hype, just like global warming, you can not prove any animal extinctions, and you can't prove any linked to forestry, water use, or anyother human activity. I mean all human activity pails when you think of natural disasters like hurricanes and volcanic eruptions. Mother Earth is much worse on herself than any human could ever be.
by sorry for the bad link
Extinction is very real. And permanent.

Longjaw cisco, Great Lakes, 1970s
Deepwater cisco, Great Lakes, 1950s
Blackfin cisco, Great Lakes, 1960s
Yellowfin cutthroat trout, Colorado, 1910
Silver trout, New Hampshire, 1930s
Thicktail chub, California, 1957
Pahrangat spinedace, Nevada, 1940
Phantom shiner, New Mexico,Texas, Mexico, 1975
Bluntnose shiner, New Mexico,Texas, 1964
Clear Lake splittail, California, 1970
Las Vegas dace, Nevada, 1950s
Snake River sucker, Wyoming, 1928
Harelip sucker, Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Indiana, Kentucky,Ohio, Tennessee, Virginia, 1900
Tecopa pupfish, California, 1942
Shoshone pupfish, California, 1966
Raycraft Ranch killifish, Nevada, 1960
Pahrump Ranch killifish, Nevada, 1956
Ash Meadows killifish, Nevada, 1957
Whiteline topminnow, Alabama, 1900
Amistad gambusia, Texas
Blue pike, Great Lakes, 1971
Utah Lake sculpin, Utah, 1928
Lake Ontario kiyi, New York, 1967
Alvord cutthroat, Nevada, Oregon, 1940
Maravillas red shiner, Texas, 1960
Independence Valley tui chub, Nevada, 1970
Banff longnose dace, Alberta, 1982
Grass Valley speckled dace, Nevada, 1950
San Marcos gambusia, Texas, 1983
Large-beaked shark

Relict leopard frog, Arizona, Nevada, Utah, 1960
Golden coqui, Puerto Rico, 1980s
Web-footed coqui, Puerto Rico, 1980s

St. Croix racer, Alsophis sancticrucis, St. Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands, 1900s

Greater Amakihi, Hawaii, 1900
Laysan Apapane, Hawaii, 1923
Lanai Creeper, Hawaii, 1937
Eskimo Curlew, Texas, 1962 §
Heath Hen, Massachusetts, 1931
Black Mamo, Hawaii, 1907
Laysan Millerbird, Hawaii, 1923
Hawaii Oo, Hawaii, 1934
Molokai Oo, Hawaii, 1915
Virgin Islands Screech Owl, Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, 1980
Carolina Parakeet, Missouri, 1905 §
Louisiana Parakeet, South-central U.S., 1912 †
Culebra Puerto Rican Parrot, Culebra Island, 1899
Passenger Pigeon, Ohio, 1900 §
Laysan Rail, Hawaii, 1944
Hawaiian Brown Rail, Hawaii, 1964
Wake Island Rail, Wake Island, 1945
Santa Barbara Song Sparrow, California, 1967 †
Texas Henslow's Sparrow, Texas, 1983 †
Amak Song Sparrow, Alaska, 1980 †
Dusky Seaside Sparrow, Florida, 1987 § †
Lanai Thrush, Hawaii, 1931
Edgington's Lesser Titmouse, continental U.S., 1900
Bachman's Warbler, South Carolina, 1962 §
San Clemente Bewick's Wren, California, 1927 †

Puerto Rican shrew, Puerto Rico, 1500
Puerto Rican long-nosed bat, Puerto Rico, 1900?
Puerto Rican long-tongued bat, Puerto Rico, 1900?
Puerto Rican ground sloth, Puerto Rico, 1500
Penasco chipmunk, New Mexico, 1980
Tacoma pocket gopher, Washington, 1970
Goff's pocket gopher, Florida, 1955
Sherman's pocket gopher, Georgia, 1950
Pallid beach mouse, Florida, 1946
Giant deer mouse, Channel Islands, California, 1870
Chadwick Beach cottonmouth, Florida, 1950?
Gull Island vole, New York, 1898
Louisiana vole, Louisiana, Texas, 1905
Southern California kit fox, California, 1903 †
Florida red wolf, Southeastern United States, 1925 †
Texas red wolf, Oklahoma, Texas, 1970 †
Kenai Peninsula wolf, Alaska, 1910
Newfoundland wolf, Newfoundland, 1911
Banks Island wolf, Banks and Victoria Islands, 1920
Cascade Mountains wolf, British Columbia, Oregon, Washington, 1940
Northern Rocky Mountain wolf, Idaho, Montana, Oregon, Wyoming, 1940
Mongollon Mountains wolf, Arizona, New Mexico, 1942
Texas gray wolf, New Mexico, Texas, 1942
Great Plains wolf, Great Plains, 1926
Southern Rocky Mountains wolf, West-central United States, 1935
California grizzly bear, California, 1925 †
Wisconsin cougar, North-central United States, 1925
Caribbean monk seal, Florida, 1960
Eastern elk, Central and eastern North America, 1880 †
Merriam's elk, Southwestern United States, 1906
Badlands bighorn, Montana, Nebraska, North Dakota, South Dakota, Wyoming, 1910
by some people
some people think other people just sit around makin up species all day long, just so the gummint can mess with their [reverential pause] Property Rights (all bow).

such selfish idiots who cant see beyond their own pricks may yet be the deaths of us all.....

have a happy happy day.
by Raycraft Ranch killifish
Are you doubting the existence of the Raycraft Ranch killifish?

Admitedly, my life is no poorer for the loss of this species- however, biodiversity is important for the survival of our planet. And our last ditch attempts to save some species (like the California Condor)- have lead to a narrowing of genetic diversity which makes the ultimate survival of the species questionable, at best.

"Sweet is the lore that nature brings
Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things
We murder to dissect."


by that "reasonable guy"
is just making it all up.

notice he offers not a single corroborating source for his claims.
by To: reasonable person
First, sorry, shouldn't have jumped on you for giving a bad link. That happens.

That's ok. Believe me, its not the worse I've heard on Indybay. Not by a long shot. : - ) And I apologize for giving a bad link.

Your thinking is still wrong, but I should still be polite, I am a reasonable guy after all. Anyway, how about this little factoid, critters are going extinct at no greater rate than history shows they have gone historically. In fact, Eastern North America was cleared of its deciduous forests from 1750 to 1900, yet suffered few known extinctions.

There wasn't as much documentation of species diversity in those years. But I can also provide you with a list of species that became extinct during that period, if you'd like.

So you really can't link forest activity to animals dying off. Remember evolution and such. As far as global warming, all you need to do is read the book State of Fear, it is a fictionional story, but the facts used it in are true. No such thing as global warming, in fact we are in a cooling trend. Also remember the guy from Green Peace, you know one of the six or seven founders, he now talks about the myths of global warming and species extinctions. Saw him speak, very sharp fellow, even though it took him a while to come around to logic.

The objective evidence- the melting of the glaciers, the melting of the polar ice caps, the increasing temperatures- how is that explained?

But he made a great point, using wood products will ensure that companies continue to manage forests in a sustainable manner. In fact he said the more wood we consume, the more private business will grow to meet that demand. It makes since and it is true. Especially when you consider that California has more trees growing now than it ever has, I guess the market place is really good for enviromentalism. And just so you know, I consider myself to be a true enviromentalist. I love the outdoors, I use what God (you, and the indians that now run all the casinos might call him Mother Earth) has provided us, I enjoy the forests, love to swim and fish and love to hunt critters for food from time to time, just started that, how fun. And I love toilet paper, writing paper, my wood house, and all of the other things I get from those trees SPI cuts down.

And so do I, but I still think we should all try and reduce our impact on the Earth. We can all enjoy these things and still "leave no trace"- I guess you weren't a boy/girl scout. We should avoid buying products with excess packaging, or single use items for example. Reduce, reuse, recycle, rot....Small changes can make a big difference

So think about that as you try and respond. I will be back in a while, I have to go fill the gas tank of my Ford Expedition, I think I might even take the gas can for the lawn mower to. Oh and by the way, how about that Great Election in Iraq. Nothing like seeing democracy prevail.

Well, I wasn't the original poster- i jumped in towards the end- so you can't torment me with these comments. I hear good things about the Prius, by the way....and even better things about Cannondale bicycles, if you ever want to try and change.

by mike robe
Damn. The conservatives get just about everything wrong (democracy in Iraq!) so I shouldn't be surprised that they've gotten the "culture wars" wrong too. It's not the battle of the books between classicists and relativists. The real culture war is being fought out verbally right here in threads like this one and up in the forests--whether in Cascadia or in the Sierras. If culture is the basis of shared meaning then what's our culture? Unchecked consumerism rooted in resource depletion, fossil fuel dependence, a continuing extinction crisis (see excellent post above for list--and 529 listed threatened or endangered plant and animals in California currently) and various ecological threats? Or an emerging sense of sacredness of Life rooted in an attempt to end corporate/state capitalism and live lightly on Mother Earth?

I saw that the Grizzly Bear was on the list. Well, we do have some in cages in the Fresno Animal Prison (aka, zoo). And we named a minor league baseball team after it--so, I guess it's really not extinct, right reasonable? My elder Chuckchansi friend tells me that, according to his grandmother, when a tribal member committed a mortal crime against the tribe the punishment would be banishment from the tribe and thus exposure to predation by the Great Bear. I guess that would be a reminder of respect for the people, both human and non-human.

Reasonable person is like the lawyer for a a powerful drug dealer who has gotten addicted to his own product and gone suicidal: he still carries so much weight that people have to fear him, but deep down it's pretty clear he's doomed. The lawyer spins out tales meant to keep those fighting to build a better community from knocking drug dealer/drug addict off his perch 'cause, after all, drug dealer/addict pays defense lawyer. So lawyer goes to court and says "cutting down the trees is good, global warming is false, western civilization--as Ghandi said, 'it would be a good idea'--was good for the first nations, etc."

But really I wanted to respond to foresters are lying scum's excellent post. If you want to aid yourself, your forests--these are "public" lands (yes, reasonable lawyer i hear your tittering), and Sierra Nevada Earth First! in doing some forest defense, go up to the Ice timber sales. Take some soil samples. First from uncut units, then from recently cut units and then from units cut in the past few years. Send your results to Earth Justice or Sierra Club. Or to us at and we'll pass 'em along. fals' post is exactly on target. Basically what is rich, dense, fertile soil is reduced to dry, lifeless powder in the continuing war on the forests. Combine infertile soil with ozone pollution and with bark beetles and you have yet another wave of the effects of the dominant cancer culture.

Peace to the peaceful. Peace to the planet.

Mike Robe
by foresters are sub-human lying scum
Thanks for the nod, guy. I'm very eager to participate in forest defense and to build the case that what the greed-devils are doing to forest soils is irreversible. I think this is an unsung grand argument. Unfortunately I'm not on the West Coast. I can do the same thing locally however.

The evidence of this soil issue is overwhelming. Give me a person with eyes to see and I can show them places where "forests" have been trying to succeed on devastated remnant soils for the past 60-80 years. They make the New Jersey Pine Barrens (soil naturally impoverished) look like a rain forest -- no exaggeration. You can still plainly see the last plow traces amidst tortured stunted trees that have attained six inches basal diameter at most in all the intervening years. This is in places that definitely had good soil once and where rainfall is 40+ inches/year. There should be more plant biomass in these places by a factor of 50. It gets worse: in some places the "soil" supports nothing but lichens that will also grow on bare rock. This was done mostly by old-time agriculture and overgrazing, but logging does it too. Every prevalent form of Western mechanized soil-parasitism ("agriculture") arrives at this same final destination -- insane parasites always kill their hosts. It's just a question of how long.

It amazes me that people can look at the British Highlands and the Mediterranean basin today and not understand that those rocky wastelands were mantled with forest 5,000 years ago. They had good soils. That's why Rome and Greece thrived and expanded. Those areas are barren today because the succession of logging, farming, and grazing made them that way. They will never recover within any timescale I expect "civilized" humans to see.

This is what "reasonable person's" Death Cult will do to the entire planet. We've been telling these maniacs this for 30 years now, but there's no reaching them. They worship only themselves, even when their Creator towers over and around them at all times, totally manifest. Could there be a purer form of insanity? No. Your Chuckchansi friends knew this about the European Death Cult from the first generation of contact.
by mike robe
The best discussion of ice age cycles and global warming that I have found on the net is the following:

The gist of the discussion is that, based primarily on various forms of empirial evidence and using the tilt of the earth's axis (Milanktovich) as the main independent variable, we should expect the Earth to be entering a significant cooling period (tilt equals less solar radiation equals lower temperatures). This is not happening. Latest articles--2005 will displace 1998 as hottest year on record and arctic ice sheet is massively reduced--open shipping lanes year around in Arctic predicted.

This last fact is crucial. Global climate turns out to be a very sensitive matter with many other factors besides earth's tilt coming into play. One of the most important is co2 atmospheric content--past periods occurred with higher co2 and much higher temperatures. The basic factor seems to be ice sheets. These reflect solar radiation and reduce temperatures. But co2 creates the greenhouse effect, trapping heat and causing ice sheets to melt. Feedback kicks in and reducing ice means even higher temperatures.

Well, read it for yourself. Or look at the evidence.

Anyway, for me, the first nations had it right (except, perhaps, for those that became great agriculture empires). Act today so that the seventh generation will have what they need to live well on this Mother Earth. Seven generations ago we had much better ancestors than ourselves. Only those today trying to act wisely rather than greedily will make very good ancestors.

It's no wonder the Lakota word for Europeans is "wasicus"--fat takers. Or as Quinn puts it in "Ishmael"--taker cultures versus leaver cultures.
by result of US expansion & commercial profit
Many of the recent species extinction occurred post colonialism in north and south america. That indicates that the indigenous people of turtle island (the americas) were able to live in harmony with their ecosystem. The provisions needed for housing, clothes food, tools, etc were all gained from the surrounding ecosystem. Everything was taken in balance, and overharvesting was discouraged by the council of elders. One of the reason that the early European settlers massacred large amounts of bison and left them in a huge burial heap, since the native peoples of the Great Plains depended on bison for food, clothing, shelter, etc. by decimating the bison the European colonialists found it easier to wage war against the midwestern people. Looking at the rainforests in south america and temperate rain forests of north america, we see a similar pattern practiced by timber corporations like Weyerhauser. The indigenous tribes of Minnesota were severely effected by the replacement of a healthy diverse forest with plantation forestry by Weyerhauser. Follow the same pattern with Maxxam/PL, Sierra Pacific Industries, Roseburg, Plum (scum) Creek, etc..

Winona LaDuke talks about traditional ecological knowledge and the Menominees certified Green Cross forestry operation in Wisconsin. Very different from the clear cutting and plantation forestry practiced by short tern financial fixated corporate timber barons like Weyerhaeuser, Maxxam/PL, etc..

"There's another example of indigenous thinking tied into a broader context, which is the Menominees in Wisconsin. They have a reservation. If you look at a map of northern Wisconsin you'll see farmlands and then an area that's just trees. That's Menominee. They have the same amount of trees standing and the same age span and the same diversity as they had a hundred years ago. They have a full-scale forest in operation. They only do selective cutting. They're very careful. The interesting thing is, I don't know very much about international certifications, but they are the only Green Cross certified forest in North America. I think there's something to be learned from that.

Perhaps the best knowledge about forests is, I heard a story about the Haidas in Alaska. The Haidas used to make plank houses. They still know how to cut a plank off the side of the tree and leave the tree standing. I figured that if Weyerhaeuser could do that I might listen to them. That is traditional ecological knowledge."

Xaaydaa Hlk'iiyan K'aaws Kyaang.aay Laa
(People who look after the Forest)

Not sure how the topic of Israel entered this thread, but since someone brought it up..

The manifest destiny dogma of European Christian colonialism has extended itself into the Arab world via Israel. The so-called Zionist State of Israel represents a Eurocentric colonial outpost designed to wage war on Islam and the Arab diaspora. The Jewish people are being forced onto the frontlines in Zionist Israel by the Christian Zionists like GW Bush and his financeers (Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, etc.) The Zionist's goal is creating a man-made Armageddon battle where all non-Christians are converted to Christianity by a force called "Rapture". The religious dogma is then escalated by fundamentalist Wahhabist sects in Islam, and many of the world's nations are drawn into this global conflict. Control of the remaining world's petroleum (Saudi Arabia, Iraq, etc.) then becomes a secondary issue as people fight for their respective religious convictions..

To return to the topic of forests, just look at the Israeli treatment of Palestinian's olive tree groves. Many of these drought tolerant olive tree groves were tended by Palestinian families for several generations. Then the IDF comes in with Caterpillar bulldozers and demolishes their trees, citing "terrorism" as their motivation. This effects the economy and health of the Palestinian people, similar to the US government encouraging mass slaughter of bison to engage in genocide against indigenous north americans (Lakota, etc.). Imperialism kills, maims and destroys with no regard to life. Under capitalism and colonialism we are encouraged to think of this as reasonable behavior, while the future world for the children becomes a trash heap of death and destruction. All under the guise of supporting the profits of billionaires like GW Bush, Rockefeller, DuPont, Hurwitz, etc and their corporate minions..

Volunteers can help Palestinians remain safe as an international observer for the 2005 (Oct 15 - Nov 15) olive harvest in occupied Palestine;

Forests everywhere are under continuous attack. The heavily logged tropical rainforest in Africa is continuously logged by French multinational logging corporations, continuing colonialist patterns in Africa. Ironically the French and the US imperialists forgot their bickering about Iraq to join forces in oppressing their former colony of Haiti, another sensitive habitat suffering from deforestation. The US tire corporations (Firestone, Bridgestone, etc.) thought Haiti's steep slopes would be good rubber plantation habitat, though the results were soil erosion and no mas trees. After the invention of petroleum based synthetic rubber, the plantations were abondoned and the soil never replaced..

We will defeat the death cult of US imperialism. Biodiversity is a stronger and healthier energy than monoculture and consumerism. The US economy is a sand castle on the beach and the tide is coming in. We will celebrate and dance on the ruins of multinational corporations!!

luna moth
by blimey
once these ignoramuses started wearing fig leaves and thinking they knew everything, creator put a ring of fire around the tree of life. let these nincompoops get their hands on the tree of life and the shit will really hit the fan.

well...anyway, this thread started out about trees up in the sierras and now they're talking about mid-east politics. jesus! tell you what, let's make a deal: y'all go ahead and get raptured, but hurry up about it! get up their with your sky-god, maybe he can knock some sense into you. just promise the rest of us that you'll leave us alone to clean up the god-awful mess you've left behind. mother earth, our first mother, can heal herself and that will happen fine when you sky-god marauders are out of here.

maybe tia can stay behind since she at least has a brain.

in the meantime, let's stick to the topic. which includes the fact that forests are carbon sinks; cutting them down exacerbates global warming.

diddo to the idea that the best test is to go up and compare cut with uncut units. go look at uncut ice units and compare them with frog, white, saddle or ice units that have been cut. i guess if you just want to lie to yourself you can say that cut is beter than uncut. the fisher knows better. and so do you.

no more lies.

by Atheist
I believe this thread has gone off on a tangent.

Immortal technique still hasn't produced a picture of any large cut or marked tree, and his mathematical skills are terrible. 2%/year canopy recovery from a 40% baseline theoretically reaches 100% closure in 30 years, not 120 years. Natural canopy closure will always have some opening due to crown competition and die-off.

FYI - I'm neither a Forest Servce guy or a timber executive. I'm just a guy who knows more about forest ecology than immortal technique or the other Earth First! hacks that are so full of themselves. I also am concerned about global warming, resource depletion, and mass extinction.

This business about native people practicing stewardship of forests is nonsense. They burned off large areas of forest with profound consequence to local ecology to increase big game range (and they killed those big, doe-eyed critters), and to increase the supply of acorns, berries, and tubers. They also caused mass extinctions when they migrated to North America. The only thing that prevented them from having more impact was that they lacked the means.
by another tangent
"If you like getting your teeth smashed down your pig gullet half as much as I like doing it, by all means challenge me to list more species."

Log the threat. We're trying to get this troll kicked off the website for repeated threats of violence. Make sure this one is noted as well.
by immortal technique
Well atheist we agree on one thing. The palestine israel stuff belongs on the palestine page. Everything else...

First of all, regarding big trees, 30" dbh is a huge tree. Since your such a forest expert you ought to know that. So tell us atheist. How tall is a 30" dbh incense cedar or Ponderosa pine or jeff pine or sequoia? How old is it? How much does it weigh? How many board feet of your prescious wood products comes off of one tree? Most of the trees in the picture of the loading area are nearly that size or over.

The pic of the tree 102" in circumference (8" above usfs limit) was taken off of this page, I don't know why. As I explained before, it was a close up and couldn't include the harvest mark. If you are saying I am a liar, a.) fuck you and b.) go up in the forest and see for yourself; the forest service violates its own illegal rules by marking trees in excess of its illegal rules (illegal by rule of the 9th circuit court).

You're right I calculated incorrectly regarding cover. But the Judge (Breyer) accepted expert scientific testimony that 40% canopy cover was insufficient for the fisher. Besides do you really think that Mark Rey's forest service is not going to log these areas again?

You're apparently not just an expert on forests but on indians too. Right. So let's start with some terms. Indians? LOL. Your as correct as Columbus. You can't even name the bands from the area. They sure did use fire, a naturally occurring force in the forests. Whereas we have supressed fires and now are using the results of that fire supression as a shield for more intensive cutting. Pathetic.

Here is what the "indians" also did. They intentionally checked their population growth to balance it with the extant resources. They taught and still do teach those who actually seek to learn that plants tell us how they should be properly used and that their voices should be listened to and respected. They teach that humans could not possibly hear, see, smell, run, and fight as well as anaimals and that animals allow themselves to be killed so that humans can live. For that they should be respected. I wouldn't even mind so much if you hunted with natural traps, snares, bow and aroow. But you probably eat factory produced, genetically modified, steroided, anti-bioticked animal units from corporate agri-business. Pathetic. Anyway, you have never bothered to learn anything from "the indians." You probably don't even know any "indians." You just continue the racist ignorance.

Oh, I forgot to mention. Those same "indians" sustained what has been called the serenghetti of the United States--the great central valley. Read the settler accounts atheist. Rivers and wetlands teemed with fish and waterfoul. The skies were darkened with migratory birds. Great herds of pronghorn antelope and tule elk dotted the grasslands. The grizzly bear and, yes, the bigfoot along with many other mammals large and small populated the foothills and mountains.

In one hundred years the wasicus have turned this into a dead zone.

As far as mass extinctions caused by big game hunters. There is as much evidence and logic for this as there is for the Baring strait land bridge theory. None. Cite me one source, atheist, that provides empirical evidence for either the land bridge or the mass extinctions. No self-repsecting scientist could even refer to these as theories. Science, right? What a joke. No logic, no evidence, just a desparate attempt by pathetic wasichus to prove that the "indians" are just as bad as they are. Pathetic. Try reading "Red Earth White Lies" by Vin Deloria and open your eyes, brother.

You know, if you actually ever read any first hand accounts you would discover that tribes were blown away by the willingness of wasicus to swear by their God that they would honor treaties. And then break every one of them. Pathetic.

Ok, finally, you make the empirically and logically unsupportable claim that first nations would wreak as much havoc as us if they just had the tools. In the short time that indigenous people had before they were the victims of genocide they selected certain aspects and tools of European culture and rejected others. This varied significantly by tribe and even by band. Like any other people with a unique culture, they were guided in their selection by the themes that gave them meaning as a people. For example, Plains nations, who had reverted to a much more nomadic lifestyle once they obtained horses had no use for just about any of european civilization. Red Cloud, Sitting Bull, Dull Knife, Crazy Horse, Black Elk--read accounts by them or of them Atheist--they had almost no interest in wasicu culture. Quite the opposite. The final killing fields in the Plains genocide were spurred by the emergence of the Ghost Dance (originated in Pyramid Lake among the Paiutes, uto-aztecan ancestors of the Aztecs). The Ghost Dance was predicated on the rolling up of the earth, the disappearance of the whites, the reemergence of the buffalo, and the restoration of the natural, free, wild way of life that the people had lived since they were placed on this turtle island by the Creator. Hardly a desire for white culture. Your techno-determinism is false.

Hack? Look in the mirror. Keep working on your intellect and your spirit. One people, one first maker, one earth, one truth.

Immortal technique for Earth First!
by Atheist
First, I didn't use the term "Indian." I know the likes of immortal technique well enough to not leave the opening for that cheap shot. But he went ahead and pretended I had. With regard to the use of the term "Indian": when I lived in Humboldt County I worked on a tree planting crew with people from the Yurok and Hupa nations. They referred to themselves as "Indian" with pride. They probably wouldn't appreciate the condescending romanticism of immortal technique. Folks are folks, and like to be regarded as individuals, not walking myths.

Anybody with any knowledge of the geology and archaeology of North America knows that there is plenty of evidence for a Bering Strait land bridge when the sea level was lower some 18,000 years ago. How does immortal technique think the first migrants got here? Did they have wings? Some "politically correct" version of fundamentalist creationism?

The first migration south was coastal, and the migrants developed some pretty impressive maritime skills. That tradition continues in the Nootka and Haida nations. The inland migration (Athabaskan language group) occurred after the retreat of the continental ice sheets. There is PLENTY of evidence for mass extinction associated with these migrations, cited in introductory ecology and natural history texts. The example I'm thinking of is Colinvaux's Introduction to Ecology, which I highly recommend. The best known example of extinction associated with this migration is the Woolly Mammoth. The migrants saw them as walking meat lockers and they couldn't run as fast as the ungulates, so they didn't survive. Humans in tactical alliance with wild dogs, and later with domesticated hunting dogs, made a combination that was more lethal to prey than anything the world had ever seen. Pretending that the mass extinctions didn't occur in order to preserve the myth that first migrants were tending some sort of Garden of Eden in North America is dishonest at best, and resembles delusional cult thinking. This business of plants talking and critters letting themselves be killed to sustain humans is anthropocentric garbage. FYI - natives didn't use fire to maintain forests, they used fire to clear forests. A lot of the grasslands that were present in mixed forest/grassland areas at the time of Euro-american settlement existed only because the natives systematically burned them to suppress the trees.

Living in harmony with Bigfoot? Gimme a break! The only explanation for the Bigfoot legend that makes any sense is an early group of hairy hominids that got wiped out by the first migrants and lives on in legend, and even that is speculation since there are NO bigfoot remains on record. Competing bands of hominids and Homo sapiens throughout pre-history history have not been very nice to each other and would wipe each other out if they saw it to their advantage. Native tribes waged wars and enslaved each other. More advanced tribes dominated less advanced tribes. War, disease, and sometimes famine limited native populations. Smallpox introduced to North America by Euro-migrants wiped out more natives than bullets. Euro-migrants played the same game with the natives that native tribes played with each other, only more effectively. Sorry to pop your romantic balloon, immortal technique, but the choice is between drawing conclusions based on evidence and believing in some sort of "politically correct" magic world where plants and critters talk and make a choice to let themselves be killed, and everything done by native peoples is done in the name of Truth, Peace, Harmony, and the Creator. The Aztecs made human sacrifices in the name of the Creator. Native people acted in self-interest, either enlightened or not enlightened, just like people all over Europe, Africa, Asia, and Australia. That's just what humans do. Calling historical and anthropological evidence "lies" in order to prop up your romantic myth is like covering your ears and saying "lalalalala" when you're being told something you don't want to hear. Same for Vin Deloria.

Now, back to the trees. The picture of the 101" circumference tree without a harvest mark is still posted. Why haven't you posted a picture of a big tree either cut or with a harvest mark by now? The trees in the landing photo are obviously not over 30" DBH. A few of the bigger ones look to be over 12" DBH. You're not going to convince anyone with such transparent lies, immortal technique.

I am not a forester, so I cannot comment on the board footage of the trees being harvested.

You're only making a fool of yourself, immortal technique. Pull your head out, get a job, and learn something.
by immortal technique
Worked on a tree planting crew...maybe you were out there for arbor day, eh?

Who said there was no evidence of a land bride? Obviously the ice age would have lowered sea levels to create a "bridge." What I suggested is that you cite one, single, solitary scientific journal article or book that includes empirical evidence that people crossed this "bridge" to get here. It doesn't make much sense, does it? Why would animals or people venture into such forbidding conditions? I don't claim to be an expert but Ice Ages generally refer to Ice. So there were interglacial periods right? But then wouldn't the ice have melted away thus putting the "bridge" under water? And if they took up their belongings and followed the animals--where there was no vegetation--during the time of the "bridge" they would have faced mountain ranges deep in snow and ice. Hmmmmmmmm. Desparate for a justification of Euro conquest and ecological decline you create a lie that the first nations were marauders.

How did they get here? The burden of proof is on you to prove that. I am simply pointing out that you have no empirical evidence for the land bridge.

What we do have empirical evidence of is the oldest human setlement in the americas--around 12,000 years ago when your big game hunters were first chasing big game across the frozen tundra. It is in Monte Verde Chile. How did they get there, atheist? fly? maybe they caught a plane in anchorage and flew to Cuzco and then took a bus down? And those Monte Verdeans were pretty strange big game hunters--they didn't hunt big game. They used cultivated plants, medicinal plants, textiles, trade items, and lived in frame houses. Kind of implies that they had been there awhile doesn't it. Maybe the Euro god men challenged them to a running race to the tip of south america!

Oh, you also cited no evidence for the mass extinction thing. My understanding is that a change in climate--probably your ice age, altered plant conditions and kiled the big game. There's no evidence--unless you can cite some--of big piles of animal carcasses with clovis points stuck in 'em. Again, seems pretty strange. Why would anyone go wantonly killing huge, dangerous animals? Hmmmmm. I forgot. These are bloodthirsty and merciless savages we're talking about, right? No, you didn't say that, but that's what is underlying this desparate need for natives to be as bad as euros.

Regarding fire, I only know from the oral tradition of the people in the vicinity of the southern sierras. But big white man know all atheist doesn't believe in the oral tradiotns or teaching of the people he knows so much about. All I know is that the settler accounts are clear. Ecologically, the valley, foothills, and forests were in better shape then than now. By a factor of what--fifty million? one hundred million? I guess it would be impossible to say.

It is not either-or. History is history. We can't "go back." But maybe we could learn smoething from the living traditions of people who related to the land in an intellectual and spiritual way. That is the definition of biocentrism--that we are a part of life. You are the anthropocentrist pretending that nature is just stuff; it's all put here as material "resources" to be used and abused by humans. You're more than atheist, you're a nihilist. Of course you did say you cared about global warming and resource depletion and what not. Why? Since you don't seem to believe in anything except the idea that humans with sufficient intelligence (same old racism, eh?) use tools to manipulate resources, then what is the point, outside of satisfying the human ego? Why do you care?

By the way, you also apparently don't know any of the names of the tribes or bands in the areas we are talking about. Yokuts--Tachi, Chuckchansi, Choinumni, Wukchumni--and Mono. Get to know some of them--the traditional people. You have a lot to learn.

Maybe you could also figure out who immortal technique is. Look me up, I'm on google. LOL!

Immortal Technique For Earth First!
by Atheist
I'm sure the real Immortal Technique wouldn't appreciate some chickenpoop whiteboy using his name to post with. Jeez, at least I don't call myself Ice-T of Mick Jagger.

My tree planting work was with a contractor for Simpson. It was bust-ass work, but I needed work. Maybe that's why I feel more affinity for woods workers than self-righteous ignorant louts that think they know how everybody else should live.

"Immortal technique" has BS'd himself into a corner he can't get out of about glacial climates, human migration, and the North American mass extinction. The Bering land bridge was not glaciated. The climate was cold but dry, like eastern Siberia. Glaciers need precipitation to form. The Cordilleran Ice Sheet was to the east. Too cold to settle? The cold climate sure didn't prevent the settlement of the Arctic by Inuits, did it? They went ther for the hunting. And the game species followed by the early migrants were even more cold-tolerant than the migrants. Granted, those early migrants had to be pretty tough.

The waterborne southward migration occurred along an island chain that was exposed with the lower sea level, well before the Peruvian settlement, while the inland route was blocked by ice. Indications are that it was just following the food supply. The result was one of the great ancient maritime cultures. No problem getting to Peru by the coastal route, given 6,000 years. "Immortal technique" still hasn't come up with a plausible alternative explanation for pre-Columbian North American settlement that fits the archaeological evidence. Divine Intervention, perhaps?

The North American mass extinction was not associated with the glacial maximum. It was associated with human migration period. The woolly mammoth flourished during the glacial periods, but early North American migrants finished it off.

I never said that the Earth was "put here" for use by humans. That's the Creationist view. Humans just apply their instincts and ingenuity to deal with whatever they find in their circumstances. 'Twas ever thus, for whatever insignificantly short period there has been a human race. We just gotta deal with it.

"Immortal technique" clearly has his ego tied up in some idealized notion of native cultures that has no basis in reality. I'm done with that chump and I'm signing off from this thread.
by solong asshole
Immortal technique didn't "BS" himself into anything. You invented that "reality" with your contrived debate about whether or not ancient natives were environmentally conscientious. What neolithic Americans were like is TOTALLY irrelevant to the present-day logging question. What's more relevant is the more immediate contrast between recent pre-Colombian indian cultures and the face-stuffing me-me-me-o-maniacs that now cover this continent. You can twist in all the if-then technology red herrings you want to, this will again be irrelevant in the face of historical fact. The Hupas and Yuroks could have kept right on living the way they did for the next 500,000 years, no problem. Assholes like you aren't going to make it another 500

Don't let the door hit you in your fat greedy white ass
by chicken poop white boy
Richard Pryor did a piece once on how white people cuss--pretty funny. He must have had atheist as his model.

Pretty funny too that atheist looked up immortal technique. It's the old saying right, "if you don't stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything."

Well, since you looked him up, chump, read some lyrics:

"My enemy is not the average white man, it's not the kid down the block or the kids I see on the street; my enemy is the white man I don't see: the people in the white house, the corporate monopoly owners, fake liberal politicians those are my enemies. The generals of the armies that are mostly conservatives those are the real Mother-Fuckers that I need to bring it to, not the poor, broke country-ass soldier that's too stupid to know shit about the way things are set up.

In fact, I have more in common with most working and middle-class white people than I do with most rich black and Latino people. As much as racism bleeds America, we need to understand that classism is the real issue. Many of us are in the same boat and it's sinking, while these bougie Mother-Fuckers ride on a luxury liner, and as long as we keep fighting over kicking people out of the little boat we're all in, we're gonna miss an opportunity to gain a better standard of living as a whole.

In other words, I don't want to escape the plantation I want to come back, free all my people, hang the Mother-Fucker that kept me there and burn the house to the god damn ground. I want to take over the encomienda and give it back to the people who work the land.

You cannot change the past but you can make the future, and anyone who tells you different is a Fucking lethargic devil."
Immortal Technique
The Poverty of Philosophy

So, you see atheist, your ignorance is a continuation of a long, dark, ugly, genocidal history of colonialism. Did you know the U'wa people in the amazon basin are threatening mass suicide if Al Gore's Occidental Petroleum corp. drills for oil on their lands. Yes, their lands, atheist. The u'wa of today are the Wampanoag, the Iroquois, the Delaware, the Sauk and Fox, the Cheyenne, the Chumash, the Tachi Yokuts, and the hundreds of other tribes of the last few centuries of Euro colonialism.

My views are derived from my teachers--the few remaining traditional people of first nations in the southern san joaquin valley. You find these views romantic. Well I find your views ignorant and accessory to great crimes (anyway, they're really not yours--especially if you are actually working class--they are the views of the colonialist). Is a continuation of euro colonialism in its same corporate state, mass consumer form "ingenious" or "instinct" (this is your your description of humans)? It's neither. It's a level of ignorant hubris that is driving the few remaining truly indigenous people and a whole host of plants and animals including the southern pacific fisher, the California spotted owl, and the northern goshawk to the brink (here in the southern sierras) to the brink.

Your culture will soon follow because the ignorant hubris of all empires finally leads to their own demise. That's a fact of history I think that you will accept.

You think this is just some verbal sparring? I challenge you for the last and final time: go up to the Ice timber sale units. Take a few hours. Look at the uncut, steep slopes. Look and listen carefully. Now go over to some of the big cut areas in the Saddle, White or Frog sale areas. Do the same thing. Where is there Life?

We call ourselves Earth Fisrt! for a reason. See if you can figure it out.

CPWB for Earth First!
by maintains healthy forests pre-colonialism
No, i am not an editor. Nor can i answer why certain posts are hidden. My role is a person who is responding to the misinformation put forth by people like Athiest and other pro-corporate goons. Whatever their motivation is for consistently taking the sides of corporations is irrelevent, though the misinformation needs to be corrected. IMCs are one of the only free media sources available, we need to guard against the pro-corporate bias of commercial media that seems to be entering IMCs on a regular basis..

Some proof of indigenous people's environmental stewardship is recorded by early European explorers who noted the vast forests that covered the eastern seaboard and Appalachian mountains. The Great Plains were relatively devoid of trees and this was bison habitat. The western forests were also full of healthy old growth trees and a thick soil humus layer that provided medicinal and edible plants. Sometimes forests were cut in small sections and replaced with oak groves for acorn harvest. Forests were not overharvested, this is evident by their healthy condition upon time of European's arrival. Botanists like Alex Humboldt had a difficult time categorizing the infinite variety of plants and habitat they were astonished by the diversity of biota in the forests..

The term to describe indigenous methods of forestry would be traditional ecological knowledge, or "tek" for short. This combines the ceremonial respect indigenous people had for their ecosystem's living inhabitants and the practical knowledge and methods that recycled the biomass without losing biodiversity. Though wood products were used for many purposes, their careful selective harvest ensured a healthy forest for the future generations. This is where corporate timber has shown to be ignorant of their actions, the effect of large scale clearcutting results in soil erosion, something that takes many decades to develop can be lost in one season of clearcutting..

The extinctions of large mammals could also have been a result of an earlier climate shift. While hunting by earlier indigenous people also contributed to their decline, they were never proven to be the sole cause of extinction. The mastadon and other large mammals couldn't adapt to the raise in temps and eventually were replaced by smaller mammals..

We will not have healthy forests under the Bush regime's "healthy forests initiative", nor will the skies be clear under Bush's "clear skies initiative". These pro-corporate agendas result in a greater destruction of our ecosystem by the pillaging of corporations. Why anybody would defend these wealthy billionaires who profit at the expense of people today, 7 generations in the future and the entire bioweb is beyond me. There is no excuse for corporate criminals and they will be held accountable for their destructive actions in my lifetime. Plan on that..

luna moth
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