Local Critical Mass Activist Urges FBI to Investigate ISM

"Send them straight to Guantanamo!"

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/09/1646064_comment.php#1646307

So nice to hear from a true supporter of Israel and John Ashcroft. But is this the type of person we want as a friend....? Oy Vey!

please remove this disinformation

Maybe the person posting this was looking for the Free Republic web site and just hit the wrong button. This misinformation does not have a place on Indymedia.

It would be wise for those of you, hello Mike, who support peace in the middle east and justice in Palestine to look deeper at the original post instead of reflexively jumping to conclusions.

The post isn't an endorsement of the ideas expressed, rather than an exposure of someone in the "progressive community" who is advocating for the worst measures brought on non-violent activists for peace and justice.

Look at it carefully again, and realize that it was posted not by a "freeper" but someone who is attempting to expose the tactics of the hardcore zionists.

At little less knee-jerking from our side would be appreciated.

...that give Critical Mass a bad name.

What does Critical Mass have to do with your fruitcake call to jail nonviolent peace activists? If you want to criticise the ISM, leave CM out of it.

... is spicier than the regular newswire. I'm going to go here first from now on.

i don't want to hear anyone BS about zionism or anti-zionism. we want to get cars off the streets and make them safe for bikes. don't let anyone hijack our momentum to free mumia or leonard peltier or put them in jail as the case may be

Posting Dan Kliman's photo like this is akin to the anti-abortionists posting photos of the doctors they are targeting. This is disgusting and uncalled for, just as disgusting as the character assassination aimed at him. This is a true witchhunt atmosphere, a kind of fascism that doesn't belong in Indymedia.

If someone is outed as a Zionist who is spreading lies, are they not allowed to be in CM? Who decides?

I'm not trying to support this person. I also jumped to conclusions when I first read it. And zionists who spread lies about ISM are the worst type. But does that mean that people won't let him ride?

I don't do CM since I don't really ride a bike, but I walk a lot. I don't know what the CM rules are.

peace activists are not peaceful if they expose zionism.

Dan Kliman's is absolutely right in his observations of not allowing terrorists to operate in the us

they run the country.

at CM are there are no rules.
Except talk fast, ride slow.

you wrote:
"Posting Dan Kliman's photo like this is akin to the anti-abortionists posting photos of the doctors they are targeting. This is disgusting and uncalled for, just as disgusting as the character assassination aimed at him. This is a true witchhunt atmosphere, a kind of fascism that doesn't belong in Indymedia."

That is complete and utter bullshit and the worst kind of disinformation.

I am a LONG time pro-choice person who participated against Operation Rescue in the early ninties, was in their face at their demos, followed them from doctor's house to house, attended clinic defense trainings, and generally learned all I could about the anti-choice extremists, their history of violence, and their connection to right-wing and other racists ideologies.

Back then we also posted pictures of the opposition so that people could watch out for them, get to know them, know who they are when they acted out violently, and learn who the shotcallers were... and this is no different.

However, as a student now of the zionist movement, I can very well tell you that the hatred, the intimidation, the "God-ordained" call to violence and the harrasment isn't coming from ISM or the so-called "pro-Palestinian" side, but rather it is the Christian and Jewish zionists, many of whom are the exact same people who were encouraging the bombing of clinics and harrasment of women back in the hey-day of the anti-choice summer rides across America.

Take a close look at their communications and what is revealed is an intense hatred of Arabs, Muslims, and anyone who stands between them and their mad plans. They are not non-violent, but they will be the first ones to accuse real peace activists of violence. It's called spin and deception and they are masters at it.

People like Dr. Dan will lash out against the ISM for protecting school children, but wholeheartedly welcome members of outlawed, Jewish terrorist organizations like Kahane Chai and the Kach party into their homes. They will hiss at Brian Avery laying on his death bed, but exalt the 3 Hebron settlers just convicted of attempting to blow-up an Arab girls school.

But back to your original comment:

Even to this day, the people posting pictures of abortion doctors are posting pictures of people who are doing nothing but legally providing a medical necessity to women of all backgrounds. The websites often contains these names listed beside names that are crossed out, because those names belonged to people murdered by their supporters, and this is a very obvious attempt to encourge the murder of more.

But look at this page again. Are you really serious in saying this is the same? I would doubt anyone's credibility if they honestly thought so.

Dr. Dan Kliman is not an abortionist but he is, however, guilty of spreading very false and malicious information, not only to his community, but encouraging them to report false information to the FBI, hoping to encourage the most repressive police tactics (the kind we saw in COINTELPRO) to be used against non-violent activists. "Send them to Guantanamo?" What kind of person would take pride is this sort of statement?

A lot of the right-wing use the term "anti-American", but if you ask me, what Dr. Dan is doing is the core of anti-Americanism, because he is essentially attempting to silence speech and lawful activity simply because HE doesn't like it. That is fascism, and truthfully, that is the trademark of the zionist movement.

Of course, it is disgusting, low, and not a trait I would want from a person who is encouraging me to bike to work more. Some in Critical Mass say they don't care about the ideology of their fellow riders and I see their point. However, they SHOULD be concerned with anyone, bike riders or not, that encourages government clampdowns on activists who are doing nothing but exercising their constitutional freedoms...and since you asked me, activists who are some of the bravest people on earth. (VIVA ISM!)

If Dr. Dan wants to jail people because they stand between the IOF's illegal demolition of homes and from shooting defenseless Palestinian children, he should make an honest case, bring it before a judge, and await the decision.

Otherwise, he should shut the fuck up and get on his bike.

AZ SF, are you putting this individual on trial with the backing of the ISM or have you taken your own initiative to do it?

If this witch trial has been initiated by yourself alone then you need to list your own name and contact information so your charges can be verified.

This is Dan's header used on his CM mssg list postings/

"What is anti-Zionism? It is the denial to the Jewish
people of a fundamental right we justly claim for the
people of Africa and freely accord all other nations
of the globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my
friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is
anti-Semitism."

This he quotes as words from Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Which is probably a hoax.
The following article offers an alternative
perspective on the MLK quote .
Fraud fit for a King: Israel, Zionism, and the misuse
of MLK
Tim Wise, Zmag.org, 25 January 2003
http://electronicIntifada.net/v2/article1113.shtml

Another really good article about Israel,
Anti-Semitism and the Left:
http://www.joelkovel.org/newreadings.html#antisemitism

Dan, that link-less info prooves only that Kliman believes that anti-zionism is anti-semitism. It does nothing to proove that Kliman went to the FBI to snitch on the ISM.

AZ SF mentions COINTELPRO. One of the most effective techniques of COINTELPRO was the "snitch jacket." An FBI informant would accuse an activist of informing and place a "snitch jacket" on him or her. The accuser was usually the FBI operative him/herself.

http://www.radio4all.org/aia/sec_cointelpro.html

In short, it's pretty easy to throw around COINTELPRO accusations but almost impossible to proove them. Again, is AZ SF exposing this individual with the ISM's backing?

Or has AZ SF instituted this witch hunt on his/her own initiative. If so, then AZ SF has a responsibility to leave contact information so that these accusations can be verified.

he should be outed in public

or, do people who think otherwise believe that he should be able to anonymously make false claims about an organization to instigate a federal investigation?

I had a similar experience with this where I live. at the time, I served on a commission that oversaw a public agency

one of the other commissioners didn't like the Executive Director, so she went to the sheriff and make false claims that he was involved in the illegal use of agency funds

of course, she wouldn't sign a complaint, because she could be sued for libel and slander

the only reason I heard about it was because the sheriff knew one of the other commissioners, and asked about it

look at this guy, if that really is an e-mail sent by him, he's encouraging people to make claims against any organization that he himself isn't willing to make, he can always file a complaint with law enforcement, and sign off on it

but, of course, people who do this don't, because they, more than anyone, knows that their claims are BS. they are into harassment, not criminal investigation and prosecution, just like the woman on my commission was

by the way, this also shows why the Patriot Act is so bad, it empowers people to try to instigate investigations of people for their legitimate political activities

This post probably wasnt COINTELPRO, if activists know how to do one thing to ourselves its divide and conquer.

Should Dan be brought to task for smearing the ISM and proposing using the police against them? Of couse.

On the other hand Im guessing the reason for the post was a typical divide and conquer strategy within the left. The intention was to smear CM as much as to talk about Dan. This is something Ive noticed a lot of in SF and it really makes little sense. Its not that the people who want to smear CM hate bikes, its that they see bike activism as a diversion so they see smearing bike activism as a way to get people to focus more on "real issues".

The fact that someone who was proWar in Chicago also happened to be probike (and somehow thought that biking by Haymarket and antiwar protests was just an accident?) , really has nothing to do with bike activism.

Activist fundamentalism has one main effect. It causes people to become less involved with all issues. When an activist fundamentalist decides to trash animal rights, bikes, environmentalism, local elections etc.. what do they expect the result to be? Do they expect people to focus more on class, race or whatever is supposedly fundamental as a result of having their pet issues trashed? If another activist cares about the war but also about bikes are they more or less likely to work with an activist fundamentalist if that activist fundamentalist is engaging in name calling all the time.

Its interesting to see how strange activist fundamentalism can get in terms of local election issues. The posts to this site against Ammiano are probably from the Newsom campaign attempting to get a few extra points in the election by alienating some of the far left. But it could also just be an activist fundamentalist who has decided that since Ammiano isnt perfect its better to help Newsom than to settle for something less than perfect.

The comments to the Berkeley Bowl unionization posts making fun of the workers for not going far enough, could be antiunion types taking pot shots. Or they could be real activists with no sense of tact somehow thinking that making fun of people will make them more rather than less radical.

The reason I would see this post in the light of activists working to destroy unity is that Dan wasnt/isnt a Bay Area critical mass organizer and SF and East Bay critical mass have taken fairly open antiwar stands.

Fascism lacks faith in humans to take care of themselves. Fascism maintains that humans need to be controlled and that there is always a set of natural leaders who should rise to the top, run things and suppress those who can't fit in. Fascism feeds on fear. They whip up some hysteria about this, that and the other thing and then, take control, round up and jail all the opposition. Dan is a fascist. He would rather round up and jail people than check the facts. He prefers to generalize about the members of ISM and to paint them all with one brush. (Don't get me wrong - I'm no fan of theirs either ... but, "send them to Guantanamo?") - that is fascist. Which brings up another big problem with fascists - they overlook the giant problems of people that are in authority and of people that run big businesses. So, the glaring confilct-of-interests that arise out of Halliburton (Dick Cheney's company) running the camp at Guantanamo and all the other non-competitive bids that are going on right now - you see a fascist like Dan will never be bothered by any of that because that is only natural. There are sheep and there are wolves. Halliburton just happens to be a wolf with a lot of bureaucratic support from our government. There is no problem or contradiction with them winning all these government contracts ... they must have the right (genetic) stuff ... they have risen to the top. If Dan has any Jewish relatives that were prosecuted by the Nazis in Germany, they are turning over in their graves. Their progeny is now pointing the finger and turning people in to the SS. Shame on Dan. Shame on all you fear-riddled idiots that go along with Homeland Security and advocate the incarceration of people you know nothing about. Someday justice will come and Tom Ridge and Dan will be on trial at Nuremberg. Let's hope we can save as many innocents as we can, while these idiots are having their little day of fear in the aftermath of the plane attacks that other fascists in this country knew were coming.

Death to Sharon and to all zionists. Long live a free Israel and a free Palestine. Let freedom replace fear. Let sharing replace greed and then we all can live in peace - until then, snitch-butts like Dan better hide.

Val Karie

critical mass is cool, but 'whatever', like so many CM enthusiasts, wildly overstates its political significance.

the typical CM zealot isn't a radical, but an insufferable moralist who sees all the world through the lens of bicycling. my own experience with bike fetishists is that 9 times out ot 10 they're not simply indifferent to class politics, but pointedly antagonistic to them.....

there's something pretty objectionable about yuppies who can afford to live in San Francisco (and therefore bike to work) acting like their transportation lifestyle is the solution to all the world's problems.

That his MLK quote is fake? He really shouldn't be spreading that around.

Does he even know, yet, that he's posted here?

It must be pretty funny, someone's reaction when they see a post like this, and filled with comments too, even about ALF . . . wonder what Dan thinks about the animal rights people. I guess if they aren't trying to push Israel into the sea, he's probably not interested.

Arabs have 20-something states.

Jews have one state and 20% of it's citizens are arabs.

It's funny that the world still yells that jews are hogging too much land.

Arabs control over 99% of the middle east.

Jews control under 1% of the middle east.

Muslims who are israeli citizens have just as many if not more rights than muslims who live under islamic rule.

But you "peace" activists want israel broken up. You need to change your stupid views.

AZ SF responded to my comments that posting Kliman's photo is akin to anti-choice extremists doing the same to doctors who perform abortions:

"That is complete and utter bullshit and the worst kind of disinformation."

My point was validated by someone calling themselves Val Kyrie who posted what amounts to a death threat on this page, calling for "death to all zionists" and warning that "snitch-butts like Dan better hide."

If anything should happen to Kiiman Indymedia should be held criminally responsible.

I can't wait to see how AZ SF parses this death threat. I hope to God the person who pasted that threat is arrested and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

I also am taken aback by "Val Kyrie's" desire to commit genocide ("death to all zionists"). Since most Jews in the world support Israel, and are thus de facto if not de jure Zionists, I fail to see the difference between such a slogan and the Nazi's program for a "Final Solution to the Jewish Question" aka the Holocaust.

All this points to a major problem in the progressive community. Until progressives purge the fascist anti-democratic and even anti-Semitic thinking that is so pervasive in its ranks, we are not going get anywhere politically.

You're born a Jew. You stay a Jew. You become a Zionist. You can renounce Zionism. You can't renounce being a Jew. To be born a Jew is luck of the draw. To become a Zionist is an act of conscious will.

So you suport the notion of "killing all zionists"?

This is a progressive position? Sounds like mass murder to me.

"You're born a Jew. You stay a Jew. You become a Zionist."

I thought by Zionist yall meant Jews. If becoming a Zionist a matter of signing a card or joining an organization?

I tried looking up Zionist on google and found the following organizations: Do you mean http://www.zoa.org/join.htm ?
Or http://www.azm.org/joinazm.html ? Or http://www.israelmybeloved.com/ICZC/index.htm ? Or http://www.geocities.com/zincisrael/index2.html ? Or http://www.rza.org/rzaformb.htm ? Or http://my.brandeis.edu/clubcenter/one?group_id=363 ?Or http://www.yavneholami.org/join.htm ?
Or http://www.zionist.org.uk/jointhezf.htm ? In the last case people may have just joined to get 50% discount on hotels and a free rental of mobile while being a tourist. Does that make someone worthy of being killed?

by debate coach Wednesday September 24, 2003 at 03:36 PM

"That's a straw man". ?

if you don't have anything to say...proper manners dictate "don't post drivel"

-Simon Cowell

50% discount... Think they'd let Methodists join? Or would I have to convert, first?

http://www.zionist.org.uk/jointhezf.htm

"50% discount... Think they'd let Methodists join? Or would I have to convert, first? "

You dont even need to support Sharon or the Occupation to become a Zionist. Zionists in the Israeli airforce have been refusing to attack the West Bank since they view the orders given them to be war crimes. Their opposition to the government doesnt make them any less Zionist. All Zionist means is that you support the idea of a state where Jews can live safely.

"All Zionist means is that you support the idea of a state where Jews can live safely"

That is right. Funny how so many "progressives" would never question the right to self-determination of any people EXCEPT the Jews.

Everybody that wants national self-determination can have it, except the Jews.

I don't get it. Must be because we Jews are just soooo special...

Israel is not safe for Jews. it's the only place on the planet where Jews are routinely killed, just for being who they are.

"Funny how so many "progressives" would never question the right to self-determination of any people EXCEPT the Jews."

No one is questioning the right to self-determination of the Jews. They are questioning the right to have a nation-state based on a religion which purports to also be a 'democracy,' but which is actually creating an apartheid state for those not of that religion.

A theocracy is occupying and controlling an oppressed people of a different ethnicity.

It's not about the self determination of the Jews. It's about the Israeli Zionists oppressing and controlling those around them based on their ethnicity.

Self determination for ethnic groups is racism.

<<You may not be questioning the right of the jewish people, like all nations of people, to have a homeland, but many people ARE doing just that.>>

i'm an anti-state communist, and therefore anti-nationalist, but it needs to be said that nations are defined by shared language and culture, contained within a contiguous land-mass. by this standard, jews as such aren't a nation.

<<Also, as for the accusations of an "apartheid"-like state, it's confusing to many of us why the world barely utters a negative word about arab kingdoms, dictatorships...>>

all the Arab and Muslim states need to be overthrown (think how unhappy that would make the US ruling class!).
now, are you less confused when i say that Israel is an apartheid-state?

<<If the only argument "peace" groups" made was that israel should end the occupation (which almost everone including israels want to do....>>

if fear of terror were the over-riding factor, than why the FUCK does the Israeli gov't continue to move settlers onto Palestinean land? how safe is that?

<<but NOT if it means lunatics like hamas>>

you mean the same Hamas that Israel financed back in the 80s to undermine the PLO?

<<or arafat would run it)>>

arafat was more than ready--and surely still is--to preside over a neo-colonial set-up to Israel's liking but not one as humiliating as what was offered offered at Oslo (a bantustan-statelet of non-contiguous territories segmented off with Israeli-only roads and military check-points, etc.) he'd knew he'd have been killed if he had accepted that "generous offer."

<<Palestinians that fled israel during the war and left their home behind, they didn't sell their homes....>>

the Palestineans were terrorized out of their homes.

<<THere was a POPULATION EXCHANGE. Such a thing has happened TONS of times in history.>>

Palestineans who were driven from their homes and ended up in refugee camps received nothing in exchange.

<<Anyway, we israel defenders want FAIRNESS.>>

sounds like you're more interested in excusing barbarism.

. . . catching Aaron at a bad time, I would like to say his response above is not only correct but very insightful.

But, then, it's what I always expect of him.

This may be so. Then, let's apply this principle universally. However, only Jewish nationalism stands condemned, only the Jews are criticized for seeking national self-determination.

In a world that has proven itself to be hostile against Jews, or at best indifferent to Jewish suffering, the Jews have a right to demand national liberation, and to take it if it isn't granted by an unsympathetic world.

Jews historically have been a powerless people, everywhere a vulnerable minority and have thus paid the consequences dearly. Zionism is a movement of Jewish empowerment and those who advocate against Zionism are in reality advocating for disempowring the Jews, and making us once again vulnerable to genocide.

This explains the fierceness of the Israeli struggle to survive against the chauvinism and racism of the Arab nationalist cause.

All Israelis have to do is look at the way Arab nationalism has treated other non-Arabs in the region: genocide against the Kurds; apartheid against the non-Arab Berber majority in Morocco; genocide and slavery against the non-Arab peoples of southern Sudan.

Yet, progressives are generally silent about Arab atrocities. Virtually nothing is said or done to protest the treatment of non-Arab ethnic and national groups in the Middle East. The non-Arabs of the region are truly the voiceless, and the Left ought to be ashamed for not being their voices. Instead, the Left has become the mouthpiece for natinal Arab nationalist excesses, blindly supporting the most extreme form of this nationalism -- either by sins of commission, or by the deafening silence.

Instead, the Left focuses all its energies on vilifying, objectifying, de-humanizing Israelis.

The Palestinians have been mistreated by the Israelis, and this must end. I want Israel to get out of the occupied territories, evacuate the settlements and seek peace with the Palestinian people. Justice must be done for the Palestinians, but absolute justice for the Palestinians is an absolute injustice for the Jews, who would be disempowered.

If peace is the actual goal of most people on this list, then we all would be trying to find the best compromise formula that would allow the Israelis and Palestinians to partition the land they each passionately claim, and make peace. Demanding a zero-sum ending (i.e. Israel ceases to exist) is unrealistic, unjust, and ultimately will not bring any kind of peace.

Those who agitate for Israel's destruction are taking the most extremist position and are no friends of peace.

The only standard by which Jews can be judged to be a nation is the standard of self-identification. If Jews say they are a people, they are a people. Period. And, Jews have been saying they are a people for thousands of years.

Every people has a narrative, and the Jewish narrative is that of peoplehood. The Hebrew words Jews have used for thousands of years to describe themselves are: "ahm" or "goi" -- both of which mean "nation."

In all Jewish sources, classical to modern, the Jews have related to non-Jews as one nation relating to other nations.

Indeed, the word "Jew" in English means nothing. In Hebrew -- the Jewish language -- the word for "Jew" is "Yehudi" which literally means "Judean" (a resident or descendant of the people who lived in Judea. )

The word "Judaism" comes directly from this geographic location of Judea (or Judah -- Yehudah in Hebrew).

To argue that Jews are not a people, not a nation, is to argue from a position of ignorance, and reveals malevolent intent.

Just as every other people has the right to self-definition, so do Jews. Just as denying such a right to Native Americans or Arabs, for example, is a form of racism, likewise to deny that right to Jews is a form of anti-Semitism.

Progressives all too often dismiss Jewish self-definition, and deny Jews what they readily grant others. This is hypocritical and discriminatory and opens one to a credible charge of engaging in anti-Semitism.

aaron
actually most of us arent even arguing on the same level of analysis as you.
Many of us agree with you that extreme nationalism is a bad thing that ideally there would be no militarily defended boarders and therefore no need to fight wars.
etc etc. .
that it would be just beautiful if all the people in the middle east could merge together as a single state that behaved itself and acted as a reasonably good global citizen (like canada or somthing) had equal rights for all etc. And if that state was nominally comunist well so be it. (most of those states are islamo facist at the moment and benign-comunism may well be better than islamo facism.
So in theory we could agree with you whenever you say your theories BUT most of us consider that to be somthing that is not going to happen.
Even if it does we expect more of a stalin type of comunism without the fun. Or that the extremeists will play along right until your about to set up your state then they will kill all your friends and make a terrorist state (classic revolution stuff).

Anyway if we can just stop them from killing each other we will be doing alright.
So we want to discourage palistinian nationalism and any sort of greater israeli nationalism and see where we can go from there.

>However, only Jewish nationalism stands condemned, only the Jews are criticized for seeking national self-determination.

We condemn *all* nationalism. We do this vocifericously, repeatedly and in great detail. Nationalism is a curse and a scourge. Away with all borders. No maps but topo maps.

Anarchist... are you demonstrating against the creation of a Palestinian state?

Which part of "all" don't you understand?

Anarchist... are opposed to all forms of organized social behavior, they thrive on chaos and social unrest and seek to cause it where ever they can their goal is to send the world back into the dark ages.

In their letter, reported originally on Channel 2 television and in Yediot Aharonot, the pilots wrote: "We new and old soldiers refuse these illegal and immoral orders that have been carried out by the State of Israel. We, who were brought up to love Israel and to contribute to the Zionist ideal, cannot take part in operations in the center of populated civilian areas, and refuse to endanger innocent Palestinian civilians."

Among the signatories of the letter is Brig.-Gen. Yiftah Spector (res.), who was a squadron leader during the 1973 Yom Kippur War and is one of the IAF's most decorated pilots. Air Force officials said that of the 27 signatories, only two were in positions in which they might be asked to take part in "targeted killing" strikes against Palestinian terrorist leaders, Army Radio reported.

According to the pilots' letter, other pilots serving in the IAF who had not signed the letter were participating in a "gray refusal," in which they were avoiding signing up for combat missions which could include operations in the territories.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?K33D42606

That's a racist lie. We're not singling out "Jews" and you know it. We're singling out Zionists. Why? Because their idea of "self determination" is an aggressive, expansionist militarist state, built on Palestinian graves.

Why do you twist words in such dishonest fashion? The non-jewish zionists aren't exercising self-determination. The jewish zionists are. You're singling out the jewish zionists for establishing a homeland for themselves, one they were kicked off of originally.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/12/02/BAVE14GCD6.DTL