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VIDEO: Israel's Apartheid Wall stretches all the way to Rafah in Gaza. Impact on civilians
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This video shows the effect of Israel's occupation on the city of Rafah in the Gaza Strip where Rachel Corrie was murdered trying to defend a Palestinian family. In the beginning of the video, Israeli tanks are caught on video firing live rounds into Palestinian homes and other homes are shown riddled with bullets.
Before being murdered, Rachel Corrie was trying to set up a sister city program between Rafah and Olympia, Washington.
ISM is seen at the end of the video making there presence felt there.
It's too bad CNN refuses to show these images.
Before being murdered, Rachel Corrie was trying to set up a sister city program between Rafah and Olympia, Washington.
ISM is seen at the end of the video making there presence felt there.
It's too bad CNN refuses to show these images.
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This is from World Link TV's Mosaic news program which rebroadcasts translated Arab news programs.
Clean up needed...
Hahaha I love videos where you have no idea what's REALLY ACTUALLY HAPPENING other than "some guys shooting at something" and then some jackass randomly attaches his own text explanation to it.
Hey guys, guess what, that's actually video of troops in Turkey shooting at space aliens who shacked up in one of those houses.
Hey guys, guess what, that's actually video of troops in Turkey shooting at space aliens who shacked up in one of those houses.
In his book "Der Judenstaat", Theodor Herzi, also known as the "father of Zionism" talks about a wall in Palestine constituting part of the wall of Europe against Asia, describing it as an "outpost of culture against barbarism".
Ahem??
In today's Israel, Ariel Sharon is busy, busy doing his bit towards fulfilling Herzi's wish. He has convinced the people of Israel that this wall is a good thing, so to speak; likewise he's convinced the majority of the Israeli government. He then told George W. Bush, emphatically and disdainfully, that the wall will continue as planned. (Don't you just love the way Sharon is following the terms and conditions of the road map, I ask sarcastically here?)
The civilized amongst us, watching from a distance as this monstrosity continues its evil meandering through Paletsinian towns and villages, are justifiably appalled. We know, and we have always known , that this is not a "security wall". It is something much more sinister.
What it is, tragically, is another land grab by Israel. Security be damned! A marvellous excuse, of course, and one which Israel has used effectively since 1948, but an excuse nonetheless. It's astonishing what Israel has been able to do (and continues to do) under the guise of "security".
As a silent international community watches, this "evil wall" (as Uri Avnery describes it) confisicates more and more Palestinian homes and lands We hear comparisons between Israel's Wall and the East German wall. There is one major flaw in that comparison, however.
The wall dividing East and West Germany had borders that were set by international agreement (between the Soviet Union and its western allies) following World War II. The wall was built completely on this line.
The Israeli wall has no borders, no international agreement. Whilst the world thought at first that it would be built either on, or inside, the Green Line, it isn't. There is no straight line. In fact, it meanders in and out of Palestinian towns and villages, destroying as it goes.
In his recent article "First of All the Wall Must Fall" (30-8-03) Jewish journalist and peace activist, Uri Avnery, whose crusade for a dignified and just peace for the Palestinians is legendary, talks about what is so "special" about this wall which he considers to be "inhuman".
He mentions the anonymous planners, sitting in their air conditioned offices, with their "special map", "special" in that it only shows Jewish settlements and bypass roads.
"The Palestinian towns and villages do not appear on it at all. As if the ethnic cleansing that many in Israel (and in the Sharon Government) are longing for has already happened".
He goes on:
"The planners have completely ignored the existence of non Jewish human beings. They took into account hills and valleys, settlements and bypass roads, but they totally ignored the Palestinian neighbourhoods and villages, their inhabitants and their fields, as if they did not exist."
And this means what? For the Palestinians it means more untold misery, oppression, desperation. It means this nasty monstrosity will effectively stand between children and their school and university, patients and their doctors, villagers and their water supply, peasants and their fields, tragically parents and their children.
It is clearly aimed at cutting into, and crushing, the very fabric of Palestinian life.
In effect, it's "a creeping transfer", suffocate them, and they will move on. Make life so intolerable for the Palestinians that they will once again flee in terror. That is what this wall is all about.
In his article entitled "The Evil Wall" (3 May 03) Mr. Avnery states::
"The Evil Wall is not only an instrument for dispossessing the Palestinians, not only an instrument of terrorism masquerading as a defence against terrorism, not only an instrument of the settlers disguised as a security measure. It is, most of all, an obstacle facing Israel, a wall blocking our way to peace, security, and prosperity".
As if this wall is not creating enough misery, hardship, and dispossession for the Palestinian peoples, Sharon is also planning another one, this time the "eastern wall", one that will cut off the West Bank from the Jordan Valley. Upon completion, the entire West Bank will become an island surrounded on all sides by Israeli territory, cut off on all sides.
Naturally, as was said many times before, this is exactly what Sharon has in mind when he prattles about 'a Palestinian state" . Some state! Several enclaves surrounded by Israel without an external border with Jordan and Egypt!
Sharon has been working on this vile plan for decades. All one has to do is check out the number of "settlements" that sprang up during Sharon's tenure as Prime Minister and during his term as Agriculture Minister.
"It has nothing to do with security", Mr. Avnery writes in "The Evil Wall". "It certainly will not bring peace. It will only bring more hatred and bloodshed. The very idea that an obstacle of cement or wire could stop the hatred is ludicrous".
Israel, today, is being compared more and more to apartheid South Africa and with justification. There, as we know, the racist government set up several black "homelands" called Bantustans, supposedly self-governing territories, whose black leaders were appointed by the white government, and each Bantustan was completely surrounded by the terrirtory of the racist state, cut off from the rest of the world.
"A state that surrounds itself with a wall is nothing but a ghetto state", says Mr. Avnery. "A strong ghetto, for sure, an armed ghetto, a ghetto that frightens everybody in the neighbourhood, but a ghetto nevertheless, that feels safe only behind walls and barbed wires and watch towers. We shall not achieve peace unless we overcome this ghetto mentality".
And we, the civilized peoples of the world, are going to do what?
My post above deals specifically with the bloody wall that is causing additional grief to the Palestinian peoples. This is what the thread is about. The Wall.
It is not about Islam, or about Pakistan, or about anything else. It is not about me.
If you can't counter my remarks with respect to this topic, then run along. You're wasting my time.
Prove what I said, and what Uri Avnery said, is false re this "evil wall"..
There will be other threads, I'm sure, dealing with Islam and who knows, perhaps even Pakistan, and much else besides. When they pop up on the board I will look at it.
It's time you got a perspective yourself. I haven't heard any official Hamas comments with respect to this "evil wall", so being a spokesperson for them is not too bright an idea on your part.
In fact, you mentioned "the wall" when? Where?
If you can find someone who "supports" the wall, and yet still agrees with the uri's facts, it would provide for a better argument. if we see somthing from uri we know we are just getting one side of the story and by itself one side of the story is useless.
>the actual palestinian terrorists who sneak in and blow up buses of innocent people, THEY aren't evil and inhumane?
They are neither more nor less humane than the Jewish terrorists who snuck into the Mandate and blew a hotel full of innocent people.
All these people are doing is giving Israelis a tase of their own medicine.
They are neither more nor less humane than the Jewish terrorists who snuck into the Mandate and blew a hotel full of innocent people.
All these people are doing is giving Israelis a tase of their own medicine.
I'm on your side against Angie, but am requesting you to use your own material from now on.
I know you slightly modified my post from the "Two Palestinian and Israeli professors discuss the injustices against the Palestinians" thread.
Thank you, my friend.
I know you slightly modified my post from the "Two Palestinian and Israeli professors discuss the injustices against the Palestinians" thread.
Thank you, my friend.
What the Palestinians don't want is a puppet state in which they are oppressed by Israeli proxies instead of the Israelis themselves.
Your attempt to change the issue by pulling out occurances from mandatory Palestine does not contitute an answer.
Worst still, your abysmal excuse for Palestinian terrorism is pathetic. Morally speaking, you're totally off the deep end.
Worst still, your abysmal excuse for Palestinian terrorism is pathetic. Morally speaking, you're totally off the deep end.
What are you going on about at all?
I've just spent several minutes reading not one, but perhaps five posts you' ve directed to me, and you're crying because the editors deleted one? According to the length of the last one here, I can't imagine what I've missed in any deletions.
Let me tell you a wee secret, Ralph. NO ONE, but NO ONE is as civilized as I am. In fact, I am so civilized it's bloody disgusting.
However, I do have red hair and a flaming temper, and when I read enough of this rhetoric addressed to myself, I might just erupt. You would not like that, dear Ralph. You would not like it at all.
Now as this thread deals with the wall, and I have no intentions of any further deviation from same, let me ask you a question.
What would happen if the Palestinians were to rise from their hovels and shout:
"That's it! We are not going to be oppressed and slaughtered by this terrorist state and its deadly army any longer. WE ARE GOING TO BUILD A WALL to keep these assassins out. We want safety and security for ourselves and our children. We've had enough of bulldozers, tanks, guns, and missiles. A wall will make it that much more difficult for them to reach us".
Now supposing the Palestinians miraculously managed to commence their wall, taking in lots of Israeli lands, bulldozing Israeli homes, erecting settlements hither and yon and installing their own militants to keep their "settlers" safe from the IDF.
And suppose a Palestinian journalist wrote articles condemning this "evil wall", and halfway across the world a civilized lass read what he said, and agrees with him, and writes a post to SF Indymedia joining him in his condemnation of this Palestinian wall?
And supposing you were a Palestinian reading that post, and you said, listen to her. She's vilifying us for wanting to protect ourselves against these evil Israelis who are nothing but terrorists. And you write a letter to the Board and accuse me of being on the side of "terrorists" because I didn't agree with you view on the palestinian wall.
Ah, poor Ralph. I wrote the above as a wee dream sequence; something you'd understand, living, as you are, in a dream world.
Incidentally, I thought I'd said goodbye to you in another thread. The similarity between yourself and "Anti Angie" is too much to be written by two different people. Even down to your sulking off the Board, lamenting as you go, my lack of brain power.
Giggle/grin/chuckle/etc. If you only knew, laddie. If you only knew!! Shall I tell you another secret??
I've just spent several minutes reading not one, but perhaps five posts you' ve directed to me, and you're crying because the editors deleted one? According to the length of the last one here, I can't imagine what I've missed in any deletions.
Let me tell you a wee secret, Ralph. NO ONE, but NO ONE is as civilized as I am. In fact, I am so civilized it's bloody disgusting.
However, I do have red hair and a flaming temper, and when I read enough of this rhetoric addressed to myself, I might just erupt. You would not like that, dear Ralph. You would not like it at all.
Now as this thread deals with the wall, and I have no intentions of any further deviation from same, let me ask you a question.
What would happen if the Palestinians were to rise from their hovels and shout:
"That's it! We are not going to be oppressed and slaughtered by this terrorist state and its deadly army any longer. WE ARE GOING TO BUILD A WALL to keep these assassins out. We want safety and security for ourselves and our children. We've had enough of bulldozers, tanks, guns, and missiles. A wall will make it that much more difficult for them to reach us".
Now supposing the Palestinians miraculously managed to commence their wall, taking in lots of Israeli lands, bulldozing Israeli homes, erecting settlements hither and yon and installing their own militants to keep their "settlers" safe from the IDF.
And suppose a Palestinian journalist wrote articles condemning this "evil wall", and halfway across the world a civilized lass read what he said, and agrees with him, and writes a post to SF Indymedia joining him in his condemnation of this Palestinian wall?
And supposing you were a Palestinian reading that post, and you said, listen to her. She's vilifying us for wanting to protect ourselves against these evil Israelis who are nothing but terrorists. And you write a letter to the Board and accuse me of being on the side of "terrorists" because I didn't agree with you view on the palestinian wall.
Ah, poor Ralph. I wrote the above as a wee dream sequence; something you'd understand, living, as you are, in a dream world.
Incidentally, I thought I'd said goodbye to you in another thread. The similarity between yourself and "Anti Angie" is too much to be written by two different people. Even down to your sulking off the Board, lamenting as you go, my lack of brain power.
Giggle/grin/chuckle/etc. If you only knew, laddie. If you only knew!! Shall I tell you another secret??
the Palestinian terrorists who commit homicidal suicide bombings are more evil and inhumane than the Jewish terrorists in mandatory Palestine, who never resorted to this tactic and others, like rearing their children to do the same.
Honest people knowledgable of history must arrive at that conclusion. There's simply no escaping it.
Honest people knowledgable of history must arrive at that conclusion. There's simply no escaping it.
I'm ***NOT*** Ralph, you miserable idiot. If your reading comprehension skills aren't horrifically on the short end, you can see I addressed him on the 02:24 PM post.
Are you a paranoid dumbell to proceed to try denying it?
Are you a paranoid dumbell to proceed to try denying it?
Two can play the same wee game when time permits, Ralph. Time permits right now.
R: Don't worry, Angie.
A. I am not worried, thank you, Ralph.
R. As you can see my post was deleted.
A. I can't see that. I said I was civilized not psychic.
R. Because I corrected several inaccurate statements that you wrote.
A. And I'm sure you did correct my "inaccurate statements", but, you see, lad, they are not "inaccurate" to me".
R. And neither you nor others here are interested in reality and a balanced perspective based on facts and the actions of both sides.
A. I've said the same thing a million times, Ralph. There are those on this Board who believe that the Palestinians do not even exist. You're not one of those, are you?
Oh, my!! Let me see what else you're prattling on about. Onward to the next thread from Ralph or one of his aliases.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PS: An aside to someone I admire tremendously on this Board: Now that, my friend, is about as even-handed as I'm likely to get in this life time without having God strike me dead on the spot.
R: Don't worry, Angie.
A. I am not worried, thank you, Ralph.
R. As you can see my post was deleted.
A. I can't see that. I said I was civilized not psychic.
R. Because I corrected several inaccurate statements that you wrote.
A. And I'm sure you did correct my "inaccurate statements", but, you see, lad, they are not "inaccurate" to me".
R. And neither you nor others here are interested in reality and a balanced perspective based on facts and the actions of both sides.
A. I've said the same thing a million times, Ralph. There are those on this Board who believe that the Palestinians do not even exist. You're not one of those, are you?
Oh, my!! Let me see what else you're prattling on about. Onward to the next thread from Ralph or one of his aliases.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PS: An aside to someone I admire tremendously on this Board: Now that, my friend, is about as even-handed as I'm likely to get in this life time without having God strike me dead on the spot.
Just a note of warning. I don't cut and paste, so if you're thinking I'm going to sit here and retype your missives, think again, okay?
The fact is that right now (and yesterday and years and years ago) the main enemies of the Palestinian peoples were/are the Israeli government of the day and its killing machine known as the IDF.
Spokesmen and women for the Government of Israel appear on news broadcasts woefully claiming self-defence for every atrocity, and then there is Ariel, the Wicked, (hey, look at that! Ariel the wicked, think I'll use that from henceforth) gleefully gloating about the July 2002 bombing of a residential dwelling which saw fourteen killed including nine children. "it's our best operation to date", he beamed, barely able to refrain from hitting the floor in a victory dance.
Sorry, Ralph. You're going to have to do much more convincing than this when it comes to look at how evil they are, and how very good you are.
And why, pray. are you sneering at the belief held by the Palestinians that God is good, great, etc.
Surely that is not going to become something else to condemn the Palestinians for, is it?
Just because this guy, Uri Avnery, is Jewish and agrees with my "idiotic and dishonest views" doesn't mean he's wrong.
If Israel wants to become a ghetto state surrounded by a mass of concrete and wires, and God knows what else, fine. I haven't a problem with that.
My problem, and it's a major one, is where this wall is being erected, which is deep into Palestinian territory. It is not a security wall, Ralph. Far from it. It's an attempt yet again to latch onto as much land as it can at whatever expense to the Palestinians. It is, in fact, a blatant example of ethnic cleansing under the guise of security. Call it what you want, but it doesn't follow the Green Line, does it? Hardly!
My problem, and it's a major one, is where this wall is being erected, which is deep into Palestinian territory. It is not a security wall, Ralph. Far from it. It's an attempt yet again to latch onto as much land as it can at whatever expense to the Palestinians. It is, in fact, a blatant example of ethnic cleansing under the guise of security. Call it what you want, but it doesn't follow the Green Line, does it? Hardly!
Ralph sulked off the board, lamenting my lack of brain power, as if he thought that by so doing, I would not respond to the massive piece above. I thought I'd gotten to them all, but alas.
God, this is tiring.
1. Don't shout at me, man. After dealing with the rest of your stuff above this afternoon, my head has a mind of its own. I am not IGNORING anything. I can read, and i have a brain that hasn't been washed for a life time with propaganda. However, you and your ilk have to blame the Palestinians for EVERYTHING, every real and imagined wrong because how the hell else can you justify Israeli's atrocities against them?
2. Don't tell me I'm wrong with respect to Netanyahu. If I am, so too is world renowned miltary anlayst, Gwynne Dyer. Read his 6 January 2003 article re Suicide Bombings. I'm sure you can find it. He's published all over the world. And a damn good thing too!
3. With respect to the outposts, Sharon removed what? Six, eight? And with the TV cameras rolling and great activity, and then the next day they were erected on another hill top. There has been no freeze on settlements, and whereas you say the Road Map didn't refer to the wall, that's very curious, isn't it, considering the fact the even GWBush expressed displeasure re same.
And realizing the fact that the only thing GWBush expresses displeasure about is "terrorists", that was quite an admission by him.
4. Informed readers can, and will, form their own opinions. I'm not concerned with "informed readers", My concern is people like you who rant forever with the same old crap, saying nothing, but taking up page upon page upon page.
5. Are you implying here that Israel wasn't supposed to do ANYTHING re the road map??? How very nice for you.
6. If my recent memory serves correctly (and if it doesn't, I can always check back over the news tapes), the hudna lasted for nine weeks, and during that time the assassinations of Hamas militants and others continued, together with the incursions, and home demolitions. So you are saying, therefore, that while it is quite perfectly okay for the Israelis to defend themselves against the Palestinians, the same is not true for the Palestinians? You're the one with the wretched morality here, man. Very wretched.
7. There's no earthly (or otherwise) reason to yell at Uri Avnery. Long before I knew of him, I was quite capable of having my own views (his just happen to coincide with mine) but only discovering him to my great joy last spring you're quite incorrect in blaming him for my thoughts and feelings. Don't forget, as I indicated before, I have never been brainwashed.
8. Who doesn't want peace? Well, surprise! The Likud party and its not so illustrious leader do not want peace. They've never wanted peace. Read your own history. The settlers in all their righteous fanaticism certainly do not want peace. Where did you say you were living again?.
9. Me? In denial? Insane? (We must learn to laugh at this or get upset about it so I've been told, and it's working I can laugh at it). However, Ralph, you'd best cease this spiel soon, or I am quite possibly going to lose my temper, and as i indicated to you in an earlier post, you would not like that.
10. Oh, and Ralph, I doubt very much if you meant to write the following:
--------------------------------------------------
"Your determination to place the blame on the Palestinians is sickening whether you know it or not".
-------------------------------------------------------
Well, well, no doubt a typo there, Ralph, and I shouldn't bring it up, but, hey, as Nietzsche would chant, I'm "human all too human". And for a little while, before you issue a correction once you've noted this, we are in agreement, blessed agreement.
11. Sharon does not want a Palestinian state. He does not want peace. What he does want, and what he's always wanted, is to drive the rest of the Palestinians living in the Occupied Territories OUT. That's what the "Bulldozer" wants. (I'm told his friends and fanatics - if there's a difference? call him that!))
And peace without dignity and justice is not peace at all.
12. The report about Arafat's pending "explusion", (such a much more friendly word than "murdered") has been on our news casts for the past few days.
13. I've had enough of this now. There's nothing you've said here that I haven't seen before either addressed to me or others like me. It's time for a late dinner. You've taken up more than enough of my time today, Ralph, and don't expect it to happen again any time soon.
Good night to you (or whatever it is where you are).
PS And it would be wise to avoid pointing out the so-called biases of any one else until you've dealt with your own.
God, this is tiring.
1. Don't shout at me, man. After dealing with the rest of your stuff above this afternoon, my head has a mind of its own. I am not IGNORING anything. I can read, and i have a brain that hasn't been washed for a life time with propaganda. However, you and your ilk have to blame the Palestinians for EVERYTHING, every real and imagined wrong because how the hell else can you justify Israeli's atrocities against them?
2. Don't tell me I'm wrong with respect to Netanyahu. If I am, so too is world renowned miltary anlayst, Gwynne Dyer. Read his 6 January 2003 article re Suicide Bombings. I'm sure you can find it. He's published all over the world. And a damn good thing too!
3. With respect to the outposts, Sharon removed what? Six, eight? And with the TV cameras rolling and great activity, and then the next day they were erected on another hill top. There has been no freeze on settlements, and whereas you say the Road Map didn't refer to the wall, that's very curious, isn't it, considering the fact the even GWBush expressed displeasure re same.
And realizing the fact that the only thing GWBush expresses displeasure about is "terrorists", that was quite an admission by him.
4. Informed readers can, and will, form their own opinions. I'm not concerned with "informed readers", My concern is people like you who rant forever with the same old crap, saying nothing, but taking up page upon page upon page.
5. Are you implying here that Israel wasn't supposed to do ANYTHING re the road map??? How very nice for you.
6. If my recent memory serves correctly (and if it doesn't, I can always check back over the news tapes), the hudna lasted for nine weeks, and during that time the assassinations of Hamas militants and others continued, together with the incursions, and home demolitions. So you are saying, therefore, that while it is quite perfectly okay for the Israelis to defend themselves against the Palestinians, the same is not true for the Palestinians? You're the one with the wretched morality here, man. Very wretched.
7. There's no earthly (or otherwise) reason to yell at Uri Avnery. Long before I knew of him, I was quite capable of having my own views (his just happen to coincide with mine) but only discovering him to my great joy last spring you're quite incorrect in blaming him for my thoughts and feelings. Don't forget, as I indicated before, I have never been brainwashed.
8. Who doesn't want peace? Well, surprise! The Likud party and its not so illustrious leader do not want peace. They've never wanted peace. Read your own history. The settlers in all their righteous fanaticism certainly do not want peace. Where did you say you were living again?.
9. Me? In denial? Insane? (We must learn to laugh at this or get upset about it so I've been told, and it's working I can laugh at it). However, Ralph, you'd best cease this spiel soon, or I am quite possibly going to lose my temper, and as i indicated to you in an earlier post, you would not like that.
10. Oh, and Ralph, I doubt very much if you meant to write the following:
--------------------------------------------------
"Your determination to place the blame on the Palestinians is sickening whether you know it or not".
-------------------------------------------------------
Well, well, no doubt a typo there, Ralph, and I shouldn't bring it up, but, hey, as Nietzsche would chant, I'm "human all too human". And for a little while, before you issue a correction once you've noted this, we are in agreement, blessed agreement.
11. Sharon does not want a Palestinian state. He does not want peace. What he does want, and what he's always wanted, is to drive the rest of the Palestinians living in the Occupied Territories OUT. That's what the "Bulldozer" wants. (I'm told his friends and fanatics - if there's a difference? call him that!))
And peace without dignity and justice is not peace at all.
12. The report about Arafat's pending "explusion", (such a much more friendly word than "murdered") has been on our news casts for the past few days.
13. I've had enough of this now. There's nothing you've said here that I haven't seen before either addressed to me or others like me. It's time for a late dinner. You've taken up more than enough of my time today, Ralph, and don't expect it to happen again any time soon.
Good night to you (or whatever it is where you are).
PS And it would be wise to avoid pointing out the so-called biases of any one else until you've dealt with your own.
You stop yelling at me, mister.
I thought you said you were leaving after your last attack on me. Afraid you'd miss something?
Get one thing straight. Your damn post was not present here when I tuned in hours ago to answer the MANY replies from Ralph. So how the hell could I know you were, or were not, one and the same. You all sound alike to me anyway.
I can't read a post that's not there.
So put a bloody lid on it, sir. A more "paranoid dumb bell" than yourself will never appear on this board.
I thought you said you were leaving after your last attack on me. Afraid you'd miss something?
Get one thing straight. Your damn post was not present here when I tuned in hours ago to answer the MANY replies from Ralph. So how the hell could I know you were, or were not, one and the same. You all sound alike to me anyway.
I can't read a post that's not there.
So put a bloody lid on it, sir. A more "paranoid dumb bell" than yourself will never appear on this board.
Look, why don't you go ahead and research the wall, where it is going, what it is doing, and get back to us. I've contributed my bit.
You are beginning to irritate, and I don't like irritate.
I spent considerable time this afternoon courteously answering your posts addressed to me. I could have done what most others would have done and ignored them. I don't do that.
And what do I see? "Dishonest". For God's sakes, man, what is it with you? That is the only comment you can make?
The IDF is a killing machine. They kill with impunity. Two Palestinians dead here, another five shot dead over there, missile blast kills four on a crowded street, and on and on and on ad infinitum. That to me is a killing machine. We do have international news here you know.
Don't drag the heat wave in France (and the rest of Europe) into this thread. It's not part of it, and making such ridiculous comparisons solves nothing. Nothing at all.
Now, Ralph, go away. I'm tired, and i intend to eat my dinner.
I'm disappointed in you. I thought you might have something to offer, but alas. Another one goes the way of the many others.
I spent considerable time this afternoon courteously answering your posts addressed to me. I could have done what most others would have done and ignored them. I don't do that.
And what do I see? "Dishonest". For God's sakes, man, what is it with you? That is the only comment you can make?
The IDF is a killing machine. They kill with impunity. Two Palestinians dead here, another five shot dead over there, missile blast kills four on a crowded street, and on and on and on ad infinitum. That to me is a killing machine. We do have international news here you know.
Don't drag the heat wave in France (and the rest of Europe) into this thread. It's not part of it, and making such ridiculous comparisons solves nothing. Nothing at all.
Now, Ralph, go away. I'm tired, and i intend to eat my dinner.
I'm disappointed in you. I thought you might have something to offer, but alas. Another one goes the way of the many others.
You never said one thing in your post that indicated Israel had a role to play in the so-called road map. Did you? If you did, show it to us. I may well have missed it considering the amount of material you left there for me.
Don't be so totally asinine, man. This afternoon you've accused me of lying, being dishonest, being stoned, having a wretched morality, having an IQ of about 70, now I'm thick headed, and much else besides.
As I said earlier, Ralph, go away. Come back tomorrow if you must, but just leave it, will you? I will not be here until much later, if at all, so bear that in mind, okay?
Don't be so totally asinine, man. This afternoon you've accused me of lying, being dishonest, being stoned, having a wretched morality, having an IQ of about 70, now I'm thick headed, and much else besides.
As I said earlier, Ralph, go away. Come back tomorrow if you must, but just leave it, will you? I will not be here until much later, if at all, so bear that in mind, okay?
>suicide bombings are more evil and inhumane than the Jewish terrorists in mandatory Palestine, who never resorted to this tactic
So they only blew up other people, not themselves, and this is more humane, how?
So they only blew up other people, not themselves, and this is more humane, how?
Because they were offered a state in name only. It was really an archepelego of discontinuous Bantustans, surrounded by Zionist tanks and barbed wire. It was no more a state than was the Warsaw ghetto.
What a bloody nasty individual you turned out to be. Don't ever direct a post to me again.
Your final comments following your initial post above certainly sounded like someone sulking or throwing a temper tantrum. I don't know, nor do I care. This is important? My God, you're scraping the bottom of the barrel, aren't you?
If what I'm saying is "unproven accusations" direct me to someone who will disprove or prove same.
Gwynne Dyer is actually VERY familiar with Israel, having devoted part 4 of his "War" to your country. Are you telling us that we shouldn't pay anything to his critically acclaimed, insightful documentary re Israel?
Oh, please. It says a lot about me that I put :"terrorists" in quotation marks? What? I am quoting the Israeli government, its IDF, and you and your ilk. It's the only word you seem to know, and you toss it about with abandon. It says more about you, sir.
You were so busy shooting off your face about the Palestinians and their requirements to the Road Map you didn't, to my knowledge anyway, indicate what you feel Israel had to do re the road map. There's no point shouting at me. I already know..
YOU accused me of having a "wretched morality". I am simply throwing that rather incredulous phrase back at you. It doesn't fit here.
I will maintain that if Israel wanted peace, it was there for the taking many, many times. It is not peace the government of Israel wants. If it is, let them prove it. That is not my role.
Why would Israel want to live next to a state of -- what was it you said? I can only ask you why would the Palestinians want to? God knows the IDF et al has caused more grief than most people see in a lifetime.
I mean, one could go to bed and never wake up. It's happened, hasn't it, Ralph? Over and over and over.
Removing Ariel Sharon permanently from the Israeli government after he stood idly by and allowed the massacre at Sabra and Shatila to take place would have done wonders for the state of Israel, itself, and the world in general. Definitely a safer, more happier place. (And I'll refrain from mentioning his many other misdeeds here. They are too numerous!)
You accuse me of not knowing you (nor would I want to, of course), yet you have accused me of not wanting peace (prove it), of not wanting good things to happen to everyone (prove it).
As for me throwing facts, logic, and honesty out the window, that's made me smile.
Because you see, Ralph, you would never be able to take logic, facts, and honesty and thorw them out the window or anywhere else.. Why? Because you ignore facts, you have no logic, and you have no honesty.
Thus ends that foray into the world of NASTY.
Your final comments following your initial post above certainly sounded like someone sulking or throwing a temper tantrum. I don't know, nor do I care. This is important? My God, you're scraping the bottom of the barrel, aren't you?
If what I'm saying is "unproven accusations" direct me to someone who will disprove or prove same.
Gwynne Dyer is actually VERY familiar with Israel, having devoted part 4 of his "War" to your country. Are you telling us that we shouldn't pay anything to his critically acclaimed, insightful documentary re Israel?
Oh, please. It says a lot about me that I put :"terrorists" in quotation marks? What? I am quoting the Israeli government, its IDF, and you and your ilk. It's the only word you seem to know, and you toss it about with abandon. It says more about you, sir.
You were so busy shooting off your face about the Palestinians and their requirements to the Road Map you didn't, to my knowledge anyway, indicate what you feel Israel had to do re the road map. There's no point shouting at me. I already know..
YOU accused me of having a "wretched morality". I am simply throwing that rather incredulous phrase back at you. It doesn't fit here.
I will maintain that if Israel wanted peace, it was there for the taking many, many times. It is not peace the government of Israel wants. If it is, let them prove it. That is not my role.
Why would Israel want to live next to a state of -- what was it you said? I can only ask you why would the Palestinians want to? God knows the IDF et al has caused more grief than most people see in a lifetime.
I mean, one could go to bed and never wake up. It's happened, hasn't it, Ralph? Over and over and over.
Removing Ariel Sharon permanently from the Israeli government after he stood idly by and allowed the massacre at Sabra and Shatila to take place would have done wonders for the state of Israel, itself, and the world in general. Definitely a safer, more happier place. (And I'll refrain from mentioning his many other misdeeds here. They are too numerous!)
You accuse me of not knowing you (nor would I want to, of course), yet you have accused me of not wanting peace (prove it), of not wanting good things to happen to everyone (prove it).
As for me throwing facts, logic, and honesty out the window, that's made me smile.
Because you see, Ralph, you would never be able to take logic, facts, and honesty and thorw them out the window or anywhere else.. Why? Because you ignore facts, you have no logic, and you have no honesty.
Thus ends that foray into the world of NASTY.
If Israel wants to wall themselves in they should put the Wall on the Green line (pre 1967 Borders)…
Them the Settlers who are living in the West Bank can choose to move to Israel proper if they do not feel safe where they are…There by leaving land for the Palestinian State being discussed in the Wonderful Road Map…
In order for this Conflict to end we need a Palestinian State with reasonable borders, this will not happen if there is a wall or fence dividing the Palestinian Areas up in such an insane way.
To end the resistance to the Occupation you have to end the Occupation that allows for the resistance….
People are dying, but who is killing whom???
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
For there to be Peace we need that Palestinian State (Road Map???) now, where the Palestinian People can live in Peace and with Freedom (Did I hear GW Bush say he was for Freedom for all People) How about freedom for the Palestinian People who are under Israel Brutal Occupation and Oppression???
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
Them the Settlers who are living in the West Bank can choose to move to Israel proper if they do not feel safe where they are…There by leaving land for the Palestinian State being discussed in the Wonderful Road Map…
In order for this Conflict to end we need a Palestinian State with reasonable borders, this will not happen if there is a wall or fence dividing the Palestinian Areas up in such an insane way.
To end the resistance to the Occupation you have to end the Occupation that allows for the resistance….
People are dying, but who is killing whom???
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
For there to be Peace we need that Palestinian State (Road Map???) now, where the Palestinian People can live in Peace and with Freedom (Did I hear GW Bush say he was for Freedom for all People) How about freedom for the Palestinian People who are under Israel Brutal Occupation and Oppression???
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
Angie's nonsense: "If the "average Israeli" wanted a Palestinian state for a "long time now", there would be one. "
No!!! The problem is the Palestinians themselves didn't want it, and you deliberately ignore this fact!!!
Angie nonsense: "the Oslo Accords (which Netanyahu deliberately left lying around for over three years)"
Wrong!!! He tried to make the Palestinians deliver on their undertakings after Israel had taken big strides in its own undertakings. This is what seemed to you and many others like a deliberate non-progress by Netanyahu. You also conveniently forgot Netanyahu signed the Wye accord and handed almost all Hebron to the PA.
Angie's nonsense: "there is the Road Map (which Sharon never intended to accept despite his blatant lying to Bush et al)."
This is a lie you've picked up from your guru, Uri Avneri. You don't have proof for your contention from reliable non-biased sources.
Angie's nonsense: "Because the Map obliged Sharon to stop the building of the wall..."
Is this your lie or Avneri's? The road map stipulates no such thing!!! Check it out! The wall isn't even mentioned in the road map!
In light of this lie, how should informed readers treat the rest of your "spiel"?
Angie's nonsense: "We are looking at close to 40 years of oppressive, cruel occupation of the Palestinians, and the theft of their lands, and the destruction of their homes."
The Israeli control of the West Bank and Gaza strip has been on of the least oppressive and brutal in history, if not the least. And you know full well not the Palestinians' homes at large are demolished but rather their terrorists', you liar.
Angie's nonsense: "Quite frankly we are tired, in fact, sick and tired, of the old time worn excuse that there would be peace if it were not for the leaders of the Palestinians especially Arafat. It's garbage, and you know it. "
You and you ilk are intent on averting your eyes from reality in order to blame Israel for certain things which are entirely out of her control. Get sick and tired all you want, because WE won't help you with it. Your determination to place the blame on the Palestinian leaders is sickening, whether you know it or not, and if you won't help improve the situation other than venting counterproductive anti-Israeli frustrations detached from reality here, I for one won't parrot that the trash you spout.
Angie's nonsense: "Back in 1995/96 when Prime Minister Rabin was determined to work out a peace plan with an equally determined Yasser Arafat..."
Again one of Avneri's lies, huh?? Arafat NEVER gave a rat's ass on making progress toward real peace with Israel in its pre 6/1967 borders minus the "right of return".
Angie's nonsense: "It's been the same from the beginning. Whenever there is the remotest chance of peace, Israel is the one to render it useless. "
You meant "the Palestinian leaders were the ones to render it useless.", unless you're in total denial of reality and insane.
Angie's nonsense: "Despite those terms and conditions, Israel kept up its assassinations its daily incursions into Palestinian towns and cities, until the Palestinians responded with suicide bombers."
The Palestinians were to halt their terror, including suicide bombings, immediately at the outset but didn't do so. But you're expecting israel to abstain from protecting its citizens and not assassinate terrorists. What a wretched morality you possess.
Angie's nonsense: "While we were hearing nothing much about the Israeli killings and incursions, we heard plenty about the suicide bombings, the propaganda machine, which is the israeli media, ensured that with help from the US like-minded media."
I guess your stupid characterization of the Israeli media is one more of Avneri's lies / canards. I reside in Israel, and fyi, the Israeli media is mostly leftwing slanted; if at all, it's a leftwing propaganda machine, as the Oslo process period from 1993-2000 proved (among other examples).
Angie's nonsense: "Thus we get the impression that it was the militant groups who disrupted the peace process."
As well as Arafat.
Angie's nonsense: "From the very beginning of the hudna Sharon and his military were determined would not last"
Sharon calls the shots for the military and the latter doesn't have an equal share in the decision process. But your wrong about Sharon, otherwise he would have sabotaged the Hudna from its very beginning, Avneri's opinions and lies notwithstanding.
Angie's nonsense: "we hear now that Israel wants to "expel" Arafat from Ramallah, and what does this mean? It sure as hell doesn't mean from his compound or from Palestine. It means from this world. In other words, have him murdered. And I'm sure they will do it in such as way as to blame someone else (preferably an Arab) for so doing."
Did you hear this from Avneri? In any rate, why should the readers at large believe you? Do you have inside information I don't??
Angie's nonsense: "We are, after all, becoming more and more familiar with the Israeli antics, having had so much experience with them over the years."
That's YOUR opinion heavily clouded by your anti Israeli bias.
Angie's nonsense: "So let's not talk about anything as asinine as peace and a Palestinian state here. Ariel Sharon doesn't want it."
Sharon may not want a Palestinian state but I see no reason to conclude he wants no peace.
Angie's nonsense: "After all, we've heard him prattle on enough about Abbas not doing enough to "rein in the militants", as if Sharon was busy "reining in" his murderous army."
You can always be counted on to excuse Abbas and the Pallys at large for their road map violation of having avoided dismantling their terror infrastructure and clamping down on their terrorists.
Angie's nonsense: "And what is the wall all about but reduced borders; in fact, no borders. An enclave surrounded by Israeli territory is still a damn enclave"
The wall is about security for Israel and the main blocks of Jewish residents in the West Bank. Blame the enclave problem on the Palestinian leaders and terrorists or shut up.
Avneri's arguments in the excerpt you enclosed are unfounded balderdash.
Angie, you've wasted enough of my time so run along. I'm sick and tired of reading your lies, half truths and unfounded self-righteous anti-Israeli rhetoric, so please refrain from replying unless you can view reality without your Uri Avneri crutches!
Angie's nonsense: "If the "average Israeli" wanted a Palestinian state for a "long time now", there would be one."
They do want one. They are much more reluctant when you start telling them an exact set of conditions (but then again that is always true that is what negotiations are for)
As I said earlier there is no need for you to "guess" or "infer" what the israelis or the palistinians think . To continue doing so in the face of facts is bad form.
Angie's nonsense: "How much longer must the Palestinians wait? There was the Fourth Geneva Convention in 1949, the numerous UN resolutions, the Oslo Accords (which Netanyahu deliberately left lying around for over three years), there is the Road Map (which Sharon never intended to accept despite his blatant lying to Bush et al)."
The palistinians as noted above have a fairly all or nothing bargaining position. It is not just the israelis preventing these things from working.
Angie's nonsense: " Not one of those obligations were carried out. Not one!"
Really? seems there has been some progress on those obligations (although not complete). anyway how about palestinians obligation not to kill isaelis under the road map? (or any other obligations they had have they followed through on anything?)
Angie's nonsense: "Quite frankly we are tired, in fact, sick and tired, of the old time worn excuse that there would be peace if it were not for the leaders of the Palestinians especially Arafat. It's garbage, and you know it. An excellent excuse, of course, but garbage just the same."
- on what grounds do you say that it is garbage?
Back in 1995/96 when Prime Minister Rabin was determined to work out a peace plan with an equally determined Yasser Arafat, he was murdered for his efforts, and by a Jewish extremist, NOT a Palestinian.
That is one of the reasons why yasser arafat doesnt want to compromise - it is your own extreemists you have to be most scared of. anyway Barak was more liberal than rabin in terms of meeting an agreement as far as I know.
Angie's nonsense: "until the Palestinians responded with suicide bombers."
The suicide bombers never stopped.
Angie's nonsense: "Thus we get the impression that it was the militant groups who disrupted the peace process. Utter rot."
so suicide bombing "encourages" peace dose it?
how can you sit there seriously and say that militant groups are not disrupting peace by killing people??????? And yet just above that is pretty much what you did.
Angie's nonsense: "It sure as hell doesn't mean from his compound or from Palestine. It means from this world. In other words, have him murdered."
Really? You have leaped to an assumption.
And I'm sure they will do it in such as way as to blame someone else (preferably an Arab) for so doing.
No the point is YOU would blame israel no matter who did it. I can see you preparing to do that already. I dont blame hamas for rabin dying but if hamas killed arafat you'd be all over israel probably. (crazy) This "it is israels fault" permiates all of your points which means that thy hold no weight at all since you cannot support your basic assumption that israel is behind everything bad.
Angie's nonsense: "So let's not talk about anything as asinine as peace and a Palestinian state here. Ariel Sharon doesn't want it."
Sharon wont be head of the government for ever especially if the terrorism slows down and israel is given a chance to elect a labour leader. Wait for that if you want. Arafat on the other hand could lead palestine for another few decades
Angie's nonsense: " An enclave surrounded by Israeli territory is still a damn enclave, and it cannot, or must not, be allowed to pass as a state."
Are you promising to deny the palistinians a state unless it looks exactly like you want it to?
Angie's nonsense: "Go talk to your people, Ralph. This is not, nor has it ever been, as you want us to believe. Or why don't you try living in an enclave surrounded by a racist state, and see if you would refer to it as 'a state". I doubt that, my friend."
The suggestion that you would refuse a state because it is too small or doesnt have enough land et etc... Anyway East Timor is a state isnt it? Indonesia is kinda racist (towards javaneese) hmm you want timor to surrender its statehood and restart terrorism?
No!!! The problem is the Palestinians themselves didn't want it, and you deliberately ignore this fact!!!
Angie nonsense: "the Oslo Accords (which Netanyahu deliberately left lying around for over three years)"
Wrong!!! He tried to make the Palestinians deliver on their undertakings after Israel had taken big strides in its own undertakings. This is what seemed to you and many others like a deliberate non-progress by Netanyahu. You also conveniently forgot Netanyahu signed the Wye accord and handed almost all Hebron to the PA.
Angie's nonsense: "there is the Road Map (which Sharon never intended to accept despite his blatant lying to Bush et al)."
This is a lie you've picked up from your guru, Uri Avneri. You don't have proof for your contention from reliable non-biased sources.
Angie's nonsense: "Because the Map obliged Sharon to stop the building of the wall..."
Is this your lie or Avneri's? The road map stipulates no such thing!!! Check it out! The wall isn't even mentioned in the road map!
In light of this lie, how should informed readers treat the rest of your "spiel"?
Angie's nonsense: "We are looking at close to 40 years of oppressive, cruel occupation of the Palestinians, and the theft of their lands, and the destruction of their homes."
The Israeli control of the West Bank and Gaza strip has been on of the least oppressive and brutal in history, if not the least. And you know full well not the Palestinians' homes at large are demolished but rather their terrorists', you liar.
Angie's nonsense: "Quite frankly we are tired, in fact, sick and tired, of the old time worn excuse that there would be peace if it were not for the leaders of the Palestinians especially Arafat. It's garbage, and you know it. "
You and you ilk are intent on averting your eyes from reality in order to blame Israel for certain things which are entirely out of her control. Get sick and tired all you want, because WE won't help you with it. Your determination to place the blame on the Palestinian leaders is sickening, whether you know it or not, and if you won't help improve the situation other than venting counterproductive anti-Israeli frustrations detached from reality here, I for one won't parrot that the trash you spout.
Angie's nonsense: "Back in 1995/96 when Prime Minister Rabin was determined to work out a peace plan with an equally determined Yasser Arafat..."
Again one of Avneri's lies, huh?? Arafat NEVER gave a rat's ass on making progress toward real peace with Israel in its pre 6/1967 borders minus the "right of return".
Angie's nonsense: "It's been the same from the beginning. Whenever there is the remotest chance of peace, Israel is the one to render it useless. "
You meant "the Palestinian leaders were the ones to render it useless.", unless you're in total denial of reality and insane.
Angie's nonsense: "Despite those terms and conditions, Israel kept up its assassinations its daily incursions into Palestinian towns and cities, until the Palestinians responded with suicide bombers."
The Palestinians were to halt their terror, including suicide bombings, immediately at the outset but didn't do so. But you're expecting israel to abstain from protecting its citizens and not assassinate terrorists. What a wretched morality you possess.
Angie's nonsense: "While we were hearing nothing much about the Israeli killings and incursions, we heard plenty about the suicide bombings, the propaganda machine, which is the israeli media, ensured that with help from the US like-minded media."
I guess your stupid characterization of the Israeli media is one more of Avneri's lies / canards. I reside in Israel, and fyi, the Israeli media is mostly leftwing slanted; if at all, it's a leftwing propaganda machine, as the Oslo process period from 1993-2000 proved (among other examples).
Angie's nonsense: "Thus we get the impression that it was the militant groups who disrupted the peace process."
As well as Arafat.
Angie's nonsense: "From the very beginning of the hudna Sharon and his military were determined would not last"
Sharon calls the shots for the military and the latter doesn't have an equal share in the decision process. But your wrong about Sharon, otherwise he would have sabotaged the Hudna from its very beginning, Avneri's opinions and lies notwithstanding.
Angie's nonsense: "we hear now that Israel wants to "expel" Arafat from Ramallah, and what does this mean? It sure as hell doesn't mean from his compound or from Palestine. It means from this world. In other words, have him murdered. And I'm sure they will do it in such as way as to blame someone else (preferably an Arab) for so doing."
Did you hear this from Avneri? In any rate, why should the readers at large believe you? Do you have inside information I don't??
Angie's nonsense: "We are, after all, becoming more and more familiar with the Israeli antics, having had so much experience with them over the years."
That's YOUR opinion heavily clouded by your anti Israeli bias.
Angie's nonsense: "So let's not talk about anything as asinine as peace and a Palestinian state here. Ariel Sharon doesn't want it."
Sharon may not want a Palestinian state but I see no reason to conclude he wants no peace.
Angie's nonsense: "After all, we've heard him prattle on enough about Abbas not doing enough to "rein in the militants", as if Sharon was busy "reining in" his murderous army."
You can always be counted on to excuse Abbas and the Pallys at large for their road map violation of having avoided dismantling their terror infrastructure and clamping down on their terrorists.
Angie's nonsense: "And what is the wall all about but reduced borders; in fact, no borders. An enclave surrounded by Israeli territory is still a damn enclave"
The wall is about security for Israel and the main blocks of Jewish residents in the West Bank. Blame the enclave problem on the Palestinian leaders and terrorists or shut up.
Avneri's arguments in the excerpt you enclosed are unfounded balderdash.
Angie, you've wasted enough of my time so run along. I'm sick and tired of reading your lies, half truths and unfounded self-righteous anti-Israeli rhetoric, so please refrain from replying unless you can view reality without your Uri Avneri crutches!
Angie's nonsense: "If the "average Israeli" wanted a Palestinian state for a "long time now", there would be one."
They do want one. They are much more reluctant when you start telling them an exact set of conditions (but then again that is always true that is what negotiations are for)
As I said earlier there is no need for you to "guess" or "infer" what the israelis or the palistinians think . To continue doing so in the face of facts is bad form.
Angie's nonsense: "How much longer must the Palestinians wait? There was the Fourth Geneva Convention in 1949, the numerous UN resolutions, the Oslo Accords (which Netanyahu deliberately left lying around for over three years), there is the Road Map (which Sharon never intended to accept despite his blatant lying to Bush et al)."
The palistinians as noted above have a fairly all or nothing bargaining position. It is not just the israelis preventing these things from working.
Angie's nonsense: " Not one of those obligations were carried out. Not one!"
Really? seems there has been some progress on those obligations (although not complete). anyway how about palestinians obligation not to kill isaelis under the road map? (or any other obligations they had have they followed through on anything?)
Angie's nonsense: "Quite frankly we are tired, in fact, sick and tired, of the old time worn excuse that there would be peace if it were not for the leaders of the Palestinians especially Arafat. It's garbage, and you know it. An excellent excuse, of course, but garbage just the same."
- on what grounds do you say that it is garbage?
Back in 1995/96 when Prime Minister Rabin was determined to work out a peace plan with an equally determined Yasser Arafat, he was murdered for his efforts, and by a Jewish extremist, NOT a Palestinian.
That is one of the reasons why yasser arafat doesnt want to compromise - it is your own extreemists you have to be most scared of. anyway Barak was more liberal than rabin in terms of meeting an agreement as far as I know.
Angie's nonsense: "until the Palestinians responded with suicide bombers."
The suicide bombers never stopped.
Angie's nonsense: "Thus we get the impression that it was the militant groups who disrupted the peace process. Utter rot."
so suicide bombing "encourages" peace dose it?
how can you sit there seriously and say that militant groups are not disrupting peace by killing people??????? And yet just above that is pretty much what you did.
Angie's nonsense: "It sure as hell doesn't mean from his compound or from Palestine. It means from this world. In other words, have him murdered."
Really? You have leaped to an assumption.
And I'm sure they will do it in such as way as to blame someone else (preferably an Arab) for so doing.
No the point is YOU would blame israel no matter who did it. I can see you preparing to do that already. I dont blame hamas for rabin dying but if hamas killed arafat you'd be all over israel probably. (crazy) This "it is israels fault" permiates all of your points which means that thy hold no weight at all since you cannot support your basic assumption that israel is behind everything bad.
Angie's nonsense: "So let's not talk about anything as asinine as peace and a Palestinian state here. Ariel Sharon doesn't want it."
Sharon wont be head of the government for ever especially if the terrorism slows down and israel is given a chance to elect a labour leader. Wait for that if you want. Arafat on the other hand could lead palestine for another few decades
Angie's nonsense: " An enclave surrounded by Israeli territory is still a damn enclave, and it cannot, or must not, be allowed to pass as a state."
Are you promising to deny the palistinians a state unless it looks exactly like you want it to?
Angie's nonsense: "Go talk to your people, Ralph. This is not, nor has it ever been, as you want us to believe. Or why don't you try living in an enclave surrounded by a racist state, and see if you would refer to it as 'a state". I doubt that, my friend."
The suggestion that you would refuse a state because it is too small or doesnt have enough land et etc... Anyway East Timor is a state isnt it? Indonesia is kinda racist (towards javaneese) hmm you want timor to surrender its statehood and restart terrorism?
Someone calling himself/herself "Hangel" has combined Ralph's posts and one of Scottie's to make the above.
I don't know what your game is, sir, madam, but I can't imagine anyone being impressed nor can I imagine anyone with a brain being thus.
I don't know what your game is, sir, madam, but I can't imagine anyone being impressed nor can I imagine anyone with a brain being thus.
Also some of my points have been incorporated into HANGEL's post. See the beginning and compare them to my post on the other thread ("Two Palestinian and Israeli professors discuss the injustices against the Palestinians"). Hopefully your wee detecting abilities will arrive at this conclusion.
You've waisted enough of our time with your nonsensical delusional rants, so run along and stop waisting our time. Go away! I'm fed up of your garbage!
You've waisted enough of our time with your nonsensical delusional rants, so run along and stop waisting our time. Go away! I'm fed up of your garbage!
I'm the one who has been going about this board for the past few hours posting denials to pathetic crap published in my name.
How dare you prattle on about my wasting your time, being delusional and nonsenical when you were the one who attacked me?
Believe me, you are not half as fed up with me, as I am with you. Kindly go play with someone else whose mentaliity is equivalent to your own.
How dare I?
I'll do whatever I damn please. You think you're my mother or something? Do you have any kids of your own? If not, you should make one so you'll be able to order around someone other than posters on this board, some of whom are possibly older than you are.
The mentalty of myself and my ilk is by far preferable to yours. So I think I'll take you up on your urging. Just scram and don't make me come back here to reply to additional nasty provocations coming out of your keyboard. You may want to go shopping or watch TV. Bye!
I'll do whatever I damn please. You think you're my mother or something? Do you have any kids of your own? If not, you should make one so you'll be able to order around someone other than posters on this board, some of whom are possibly older than you are.
The mentalty of myself and my ilk is by far preferable to yours. So I think I'll take you up on your urging. Just scram and don't make me come back here to reply to additional nasty provocations coming out of your keyboard. You may want to go shopping or watch TV. Bye!
Maybe HANGEL is setting up a web site of detailed "angie rebuttals" he will need to negotiate alot of server space.
"Because they [Arafat and the Palestinians in 2000] were offered a state in name only. It was really an archepelego of discontinuous Bantustans, surrounded by Zionist tanks and barbed wire. It was no more a state than was the Warsaw ghetto."
You're uttering a vile and flatout lie through your bloody teeth and parroting propaganda to boot.
You're uttering a vile and flatout lie through your bloody teeth and parroting propaganda to boot.
No, I'm not. I'm describing what I saw on the map. If you've seen a different map, please post it that we may see, too.
But, of course, one would not expect those busy gleefully annouoncing the resignation of Abbas to say anything about it.
Hours following the resignation of Mahmoud Abbas, an Israeli warplane dropped a 250 kilogram bomb on a Gaza City apartment in a botched attempt to kill several top Hamas leaders, including the Islamic group's founder, Sheik Ahmed Yassin, who escaped with a minor wound.
Talk about provocation!
"No Hamas official is immune", declared an Israeli Defence Ministry spokesman, Gideon Meir, adding there will be "other chances" to go after Hamas leaders.
Meanwhile back to Abbas. He resigned because he felt "abandoned by all sides".
Reading from a prepared speech, Mr. Abbas explained by he quit.
"Israel", he said, "had not carried out its obligations under the Road Map. the United States had not enforced Israeli compliance, and his detractors at home had constantly undermined him with harsh and dangerous incitement".
Hours following the resignation of Mahmoud Abbas, an Israeli warplane dropped a 250 kilogram bomb on a Gaza City apartment in a botched attempt to kill several top Hamas leaders, including the Islamic group's founder, Sheik Ahmed Yassin, who escaped with a minor wound.
Talk about provocation!
"No Hamas official is immune", declared an Israeli Defence Ministry spokesman, Gideon Meir, adding there will be "other chances" to go after Hamas leaders.
Meanwhile back to Abbas. He resigned because he felt "abandoned by all sides".
Reading from a prepared speech, Mr. Abbas explained by he quit.
"Israel", he said, "had not carried out its obligations under the Road Map. the United States had not enforced Israeli compliance, and his detractors at home had constantly undermined him with harsh and dangerous incitement".
According to BBC World news, and CBC World, Palestinian President, Yasser Arafat, has announced that Parliamentary Speaker, Abu Ala, will become his new Prime Minister. Described as "pragmatic" and "a businessman", Ala was one of the chief negotiators in the Oslo Accords in '93. He sits on the Central Committee of the mainstream Fatah faction.
There will be more info on this later as events occur.
There will be more info on this later as events occur.
Uri suggests the wall is "an instrument of terrorism"
---incorrect refer to the previous discussion on terrorism
" masquerading as a defence against terrorism"
incorrect go look at any israeli discussion of the wall they at very least THINK it will stop terrorism. Most likely it will in the long run maybe not in the short term.
(just using some logic here but this isthe domain of psychology)anyway refer below...
the rest for the most part I accept as his opinion and he might be correct for example that it is standing in the way of a negotaited peace.
It is hard to tell if what he says is true about the "eastern wall"
it seems to be a story circulated by our infamous TABLOID newspaper Yediot Aharonot. the security grounds on which this wall might be built are obviously pretty dubious. And it seems that noone has said anything more about this plan. there is a good chance that it is a rumor or possibly a "pipe dream".
"Naturally, as was said many times before, this is exactly what Sharon has in mind when he prattles about 'a Palestinian state" . "
On practical level it helps noone to have a crippled palistinian state on the edge of israel. No one wants to boarder on a 'afganistain"
'Sharon has been working on this vile plan for decades. All one has to do is check out the number of "settlements" that sprang up during Sharon's tenure as Prime Minister and during his term as Agriculture Minister. "
these two plans are different. one plan is to anex parts of palestine via settlements the other is some odd idea to cripple palestine and seperate it from israel.
if you want to say they are part of an evil plot you will have to intergrate them better.
"It has nothing to do with security", Mr. Avnery writes in "The Evil Wall".
Of course it does. If you live next to a palistinian village and you are scared of them (as many people are) a wal will provide a sense of security. that is one of hte reasons you would support it. So of course it has somthing to do with security.
"It certainly will not bring peace."
this is a different question. Many of these israelis dont expect peace they are happy with "damage minimization". years of terrorism have destroyed their faith in peace and so compromising to arafat and then getting shot by hamas doesnt appeal to them.
" It will only bring more hatred and bloodshed. The very idea that an obstacle of cement or wire could stop the hatred is ludicrous"."
As I said the wall isnt designed to stop hatred it is designed to stop its manifestations. You will notice that most of hte people here including you sem to think the roadmap doesnt stand a chance.. well neither do they. they dont expect a peace settlement so they want a wal to protect them from the results of the failed peace. then the government just provides what the people want (the government doesnt expect peace either by the way since they know arafat would get assasinated if he gave up peace, refer to public oppion polls, and so he isnt going to do it).
---incorrect refer to the previous discussion on terrorism
" masquerading as a defence against terrorism"
incorrect go look at any israeli discussion of the wall they at very least THINK it will stop terrorism. Most likely it will in the long run maybe not in the short term.
(just using some logic here but this isthe domain of psychology)anyway refer below...
the rest for the most part I accept as his opinion and he might be correct for example that it is standing in the way of a negotaited peace.
It is hard to tell if what he says is true about the "eastern wall"
it seems to be a story circulated by our infamous TABLOID newspaper Yediot Aharonot. the security grounds on which this wall might be built are obviously pretty dubious. And it seems that noone has said anything more about this plan. there is a good chance that it is a rumor or possibly a "pipe dream".
"Naturally, as was said many times before, this is exactly what Sharon has in mind when he prattles about 'a Palestinian state" . "
On practical level it helps noone to have a crippled palistinian state on the edge of israel. No one wants to boarder on a 'afganistain"
'Sharon has been working on this vile plan for decades. All one has to do is check out the number of "settlements" that sprang up during Sharon's tenure as Prime Minister and during his term as Agriculture Minister. "
these two plans are different. one plan is to anex parts of palestine via settlements the other is some odd idea to cripple palestine and seperate it from israel.
if you want to say they are part of an evil plot you will have to intergrate them better.
"It has nothing to do with security", Mr. Avnery writes in "The Evil Wall".
Of course it does. If you live next to a palistinian village and you are scared of them (as many people are) a wal will provide a sense of security. that is one of hte reasons you would support it. So of course it has somthing to do with security.
"It certainly will not bring peace."
this is a different question. Many of these israelis dont expect peace they are happy with "damage minimization". years of terrorism have destroyed their faith in peace and so compromising to arafat and then getting shot by hamas doesnt appeal to them.
" It will only bring more hatred and bloodshed. The very idea that an obstacle of cement or wire could stop the hatred is ludicrous"."
As I said the wall isnt designed to stop hatred it is designed to stop its manifestations. You will notice that most of hte people here including you sem to think the roadmap doesnt stand a chance.. well neither do they. they dont expect a peace settlement so they want a wal to protect them from the results of the failed peace. then the government just provides what the people want (the government doesnt expect peace either by the way since they know arafat would get assasinated if he gave up peace, refer to public oppion polls, and so he isnt going to do it).
Anyone who doesnt resign is unworthy of the position.
If Israel wants a wall, if they want to live in a ghetto state, fine. I have no problem with that.
I do have a MAJOR problem with where this wall is going, what it is doing to Palestinian tows, villages, and families, a way of life. Had the damn thing been built inside, or on, the so-called Green Line, I may have been more accepting. It isn't. So I'm totally against its existence. As if the Palestinians didn't have enough oppression already!
Right now, you can talk about security all you want, but those of us who are outside looking in, see it not as a security instrument at all, but as a blatant land grab, a "creeping transfer", as Uri said, an ethnic cleansing under the guise of security.
If I got up tomorrow morning and I could not access my farm because a damn wall cut through it, denying access to my land and my livelihood, don't think I would accept it.
If I wanted to visit my doctor, and a wall divided me from him/her, if I wanted to send my children to school, (if I had any, which I don't), and I could not do it because of a wall, if I wanted to visit my family and couldn't do it because of a wall, you're damn right I'd be reacting, and reacting, and reacting.
As I said here yesterday when GWBush allows something other than :terrorists" to occupy his mind, we can only assume the man is displeased, and he was obviously displeased about the Wall.
It's unfortunate for all concerned that his displeasure did not extend to reining in Sharon the Wicked (my new title for him, don't you all just love it??) and calling a halt to the damn thing. Had he done this, it would certainly have improved his standing in the Arab world. Alas, as always, he backed down.
NOTE: I appreciate you coming back with something here, Scottie. Thank you.
Please do not just summarize the abu mazen thing as "felt abandoned by all sides." The SPECIFICS are directly quoted from Mazen and other cabinet members. Read the quotes, straight from Abu Mazen to the Associated Press. This is not propaganda, this is straight from the mouths of Abu Mazen and other palestinian officials. This is how Arafat and Palestinians in general treat the first Palestinian leader to act like a moderate and genuinely push for two peaceful neighbor states:
An official said the choice for the Palestinians is between the road map and a two-state solution, or Arafat, terrorism, and no Palestinian state.
"The Palestinians have to choose a different strategy," the official said. "Now they are choosing Arafat, and will get nothing but Arafat stuck inside his Ramallah compound."
The official warned that if Arafat, who he said has done everything possible to undermine Abbas, overplays his hand, Israel will once again debate whether to expel Arafat, and the US may then be willing to "remove its protective shield."
Abbas said his resignation was the result of "harsh and dangerous domestic incitement" against his cabinet and a lack of support for its actions.
Speaking at a closed-door meeting of the Palestinian Legislative Council shortly before his resignation, Abbas accused Arafat of undermining his position and hampering his efforts to implement reforms in the Palestinian Authority. He also accused Israel and the US of failing to take measures to strengthen his cabinet.
Abbas lashed out at Arab satellite TV stations for creating the "false impression" that his cabinet was on the verge of collapse.
One of the legislators who attended the meeting told The Jerusalem Post that Abbas seemed to be deeply offended by suspicions voiced by many Palestinians that he is an American puppet. On Thursday, about 200 Palestinians demonstrated at the entrance to the PLC building in Ramallah, chanting anti-Abbas slogans and vowing to "redeem, with blood and soul, our leader Yasser Arafat."
The meeting was called to discuss the achievements of the Abbas cabinet in its first 100 days in power. At least 18 PLC members submitted a request for a no confidence vote in Abbas's cabinet. Abbas seemed certain to lose the vote, originally scheduled for later this week.
Masked members of Fatah's al-Aksa Martyrs Brigades also participated in the protest, screaming that Abbas and his Minister of Security Muhammad Dahlan were guilty of treason and spray painting the front of the building with signs that said, "Down with Abu Mazen's [Abbas's] government."
Leaflets distributed over the past 48 hours by Fatah activists strongly condemned Abbas and Dahlan as "CIA agents and Israeli collaborators." The leaflets urged Abbas to resign or face being punished and ostracized by his people.
A visibly shaken Abbas told some legislators after Thursday's stormy PLC session that he had had enough and was considering resigning. "As a man who served the Palestinian cause for more than 40 years, he couldn't put up with the fact that Palestinians were now accusing him of being a traitor and a CIA agent," explained the legislator.
"The events of the past few days left a scar on Abu Mazen," said Kadoura Fares, a legislator and top Fatah activist who acted as a mediator between Arafat and Abbas in recent weeks. "Abu Mazen is not built to take such a thing."
An official said the choice for the Palestinians is between the road map and a two-state solution, or Arafat, terrorism, and no Palestinian state.
"The Palestinians have to choose a different strategy," the official said. "Now they are choosing Arafat, and will get nothing but Arafat stuck inside his Ramallah compound."
The official warned that if Arafat, who he said has done everything possible to undermine Abbas, overplays his hand, Israel will once again debate whether to expel Arafat, and the US may then be willing to "remove its protective shield."
Abbas said his resignation was the result of "harsh and dangerous domestic incitement" against his cabinet and a lack of support for its actions.
Speaking at a closed-door meeting of the Palestinian Legislative Council shortly before his resignation, Abbas accused Arafat of undermining his position and hampering his efforts to implement reforms in the Palestinian Authority. He also accused Israel and the US of failing to take measures to strengthen his cabinet.
Abbas lashed out at Arab satellite TV stations for creating the "false impression" that his cabinet was on the verge of collapse.
One of the legislators who attended the meeting told The Jerusalem Post that Abbas seemed to be deeply offended by suspicions voiced by many Palestinians that he is an American puppet. On Thursday, about 200 Palestinians demonstrated at the entrance to the PLC building in Ramallah, chanting anti-Abbas slogans and vowing to "redeem, with blood and soul, our leader Yasser Arafat."
The meeting was called to discuss the achievements of the Abbas cabinet in its first 100 days in power. At least 18 PLC members submitted a request for a no confidence vote in Abbas's cabinet. Abbas seemed certain to lose the vote, originally scheduled for later this week.
Masked members of Fatah's al-Aksa Martyrs Brigades also participated in the protest, screaming that Abbas and his Minister of Security Muhammad Dahlan were guilty of treason and spray painting the front of the building with signs that said, "Down with Abu Mazen's [Abbas's] government."
Leaflets distributed over the past 48 hours by Fatah activists strongly condemned Abbas and Dahlan as "CIA agents and Israeli collaborators." The leaflets urged Abbas to resign or face being punished and ostracized by his people.
A visibly shaken Abbas told some legislators after Thursday's stormy PLC session that he had had enough and was considering resigning. "As a man who served the Palestinian cause for more than 40 years, he couldn't put up with the fact that Palestinians were now accusing him of being a traitor and a CIA agent," explained the legislator.
"The events of the past few days left a scar on Abu Mazen," said Kadoura Fares, a legislator and top Fatah activist who acted as a mediator between Arafat and Abbas in recent weeks. "Abu Mazen is not built to take such a thing."
geezz if i was him I would resign too.. Id be thinking of applying for refugee status.
For heaven's sakes, calm down here. Presumably, after quoting a brief portion of my post above, you are referring to me and condemning my "summary" of the resignation of Mr. Abbas.
The man stated:
"Isreal had not carried out its obligations under the Road Map; the United States had not enforced Israeli compliance; and his detractors at home had constantly undermined him with harsh and dangerous incitement".
This is what Mr. Abbas stated. This is what I spoke about. If you want to go into details beyond what hs said, fine.. Or are you saying that he never uttered the remarks above?
My apologies for not getting your "title" right there. I do, however, recognize that frantic style.
I'm perfectly calm and didn't mean to appear otherwise.
You mean "a map". Most probably a map printed by a pro-Palestinian biased publication, so it would be far better if you go ahead and post the map you allude to.
It's really quite obvious.
If there are settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip (which there are and they contain something like 400,000 Jewish settlers along with Jewish only roads) then the West Bank and Gaza Strip cannot become anything other than a non-contiguous set of Bantustans.
Worse, we are paying for the settlements which are still expanding.
This is expansionism little different than Nazi Germany's expansionism and we US taxpayers are paying for it.
The reason 9-11 happened can be found in the oldest refugee camps in the world which are inhabited by Palestinians (that, along with the genocidal sanctions on Iraq which are in turn based on American hatred for anything Arab).
If there are settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip (which there are and they contain something like 400,000 Jewish settlers along with Jewish only roads) then the West Bank and Gaza Strip cannot become anything other than a non-contiguous set of Bantustans.
Worse, we are paying for the settlements which are still expanding.
This is expansionism little different than Nazi Germany's expansionism and we US taxpayers are paying for it.
The reason 9-11 happened can be found in the oldest refugee camps in the world which are inhabited by Palestinians (that, along with the genocidal sanctions on Iraq which are in turn based on American hatred for anything Arab).
We were discussing what Ehud Barak offered the Arafat and the Palestinians during 2000. You strayed from the topic.
Barak would have dismantled all the Jewish settlements except for those near the green line had Arafat accepted the offer. The Palestinias ould have gotten a state on 90%-97% of the territories.
In light of your unfounded argument that "This is expansionism little different than Nazi Germany's expansionism" I can only bemoan how tax money from US taxpayers has failed to be sufficiently allocated to the educational system to adequately enlighten indoctrinated ignoramuses who level such charges.
I suggest you stop paying part or all of your taxes if you truly believe what you do.
But remember many US taxpayers (not necessarily uninformed) see things differently. For example, fact is the majority at Rainbow coop decided through a democratic vote not to boycott Israeli products; I've read one non-Jewish employee's post here where s/he insisted s/he was informed and berated the rabid anti-Zionists for their attempts to intimidate and sow guilt amongst Rainbow employees with the same stance.
Barak would have dismantled all the Jewish settlements except for those near the green line had Arafat accepted the offer. The Palestinias ould have gotten a state on 90%-97% of the territories.
In light of your unfounded argument that "This is expansionism little different than Nazi Germany's expansionism" I can only bemoan how tax money from US taxpayers has failed to be sufficiently allocated to the educational system to adequately enlighten indoctrinated ignoramuses who level such charges.
I suggest you stop paying part or all of your taxes if you truly believe what you do.
But remember many US taxpayers (not necessarily uninformed) see things differently. For example, fact is the majority at Rainbow coop decided through a democratic vote not to boycott Israeli products; I've read one non-Jewish employee's post here where s/he insisted s/he was informed and berated the rabid anti-Zionists for their attempts to intimidate and sow guilt amongst Rainbow employees with the same stance.
--"I can only bemoan how tax money from US taxpayers has failed to be sufficiently allocated to the educational system to adequately enlighten indoctrinated ignoramuses who level such charges."
Bemoan away.
Actually, Zionists already allocate sufficient funds into textbooks and the media to "adequately enlighten" us "ignoramuses" with your Zionist ideology.
That's why most people side with you despite your racist attitude towards Arabs. In fact, most of us have internalized Zionists' racism towards Arabs.
BTW, "history buff" and I are two different people.
Bemoan away.
Actually, Zionists already allocate sufficient funds into textbooks and the media to "adequately enlighten" us "ignoramuses" with your Zionist ideology.
That's why most people side with you despite your racist attitude towards Arabs. In fact, most of us have internalized Zionists' racism towards Arabs.
BTW, "history buff" and I are two different people.
The following is a music video by Arab musicians who are trying to bring to public attention the enormous suffering caused by Israel and US policy.
This VIDEO contains scenes of Israel's bombarment of Lebanon as well as human rights abuses in the Occupied Territories among other things:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/09/1642019.php
This VIDEO contains scenes of Israel's bombarment of Lebanon as well as human rights abuses in the Occupied Territories among other things:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/09/1642019.php
"Zionists already allocate sufficient funds into textbooks and the media to "adequately enlighten" us "ignoramuses" with your Zionist ideology. " ; "your racist attitude towards Arabs"
For one, you don't only brand American Jews and non-Jews supportive of Israel's existence Zionists, but even American Christians with a neutral stance regarding Israel's existence, or even anti-Zionists who aren't sufficiently extreme by your standards.
Secondly, there's no monolithic Zionist ideology and you don't know exactly what I subscribe to.
Thirdly, you don't know me so don't jabber about my being racist toward Arabs, o psychic.
"That's why most people side with you despite your racist attitude towards Arabs."
In light of what I've explained above, your statement is a fallacy. Nevertheless, I think most Americans can sort facts from propaganda. That's why they don't side with Hamas and co., or even with Arafat against Israel.
For one, you don't only brand American Jews and non-Jews supportive of Israel's existence Zionists, but even American Christians with a neutral stance regarding Israel's existence, or even anti-Zionists who aren't sufficiently extreme by your standards.
Secondly, there's no monolithic Zionist ideology and you don't know exactly what I subscribe to.
Thirdly, you don't know me so don't jabber about my being racist toward Arabs, o psychic.
"That's why most people side with you despite your racist attitude towards Arabs."
In light of what I've explained above, your statement is a fallacy. Nevertheless, I think most Americans can sort facts from propaganda. That's why they don't side with Hamas and co., or even with Arafat against Israel.
How it is that there is no objection from the international community with respect to the path this wall is taking. There's been all kinds of rantings, but there's not been any explanation.
This I can only assume, without evidence to the contrary, that the land grab by Israel is the correct answer.
This I can only assume, without evidence to the contrary, that the land grab by Israel is the correct answer.
"How it is that there is no objection from the international community with respect to the path this wall is taking. "
False allegation.
"There's been all kinds of rantings, but there's not been any explanation.
This I can only assume, without evidence to the contrary, that the land grab by Israel is the correct answer."
Logical fallacy.
For more on logic at your level, try reading Logic for Dummies.
False allegation.
"There's been all kinds of rantings, but there's not been any explanation.
This I can only assume, without evidence to the contrary, that the land grab by Israel is the correct answer."
Logical fallacy.
For more on logic at your level, try reading Logic for Dummies.
An unusual name there, but to each his own.
However, you just typed six or seven lines, and you did not tell me anything with respect to why to so called "security wall" is being built deep into Palestinian land.
Perhaps I should have stated my question more clearly.
I'm aware of the objections re the wall; even GWBush actually mentioned it; it took his mind of "terrorists" for a few moments.
But we have not been told by Israel, have we, why it did not follow inside the Green Line, or at least stay on it. I was under the impression, rightly or wrongly, that the international community thought it would be built along that line as well.
I'm aware of the objections re the wall; even GWBush actually mentioned it; it took his mind of "terrorists" for a few moments.
But we have not been told by Israel, have we, why it did not follow inside the Green Line, or at least stay on it. I was under the impression, rightly or wrongly, that the international community thought it would be built along that line as well.
Putting it right on the green line would allow palestinians to still be able to fire missiles into Israel.
Putting it many miles away makes it harder for arabs to hit Israel with missiles.
Putting it many miles away makes it harder for arabs to hit Israel with missiles.
People with independent minds laugh at this assertion. However, it serves Israel and its supporters well. The truth, however, isn't even standing on one leg here.
independence if you were able to unclog it and let the true facts flow through, unhindered by Avneri's and I. Shamir's spins.
I doubt you've heard of the problem of the Qassam rockets or missiles that have been fired from the Gaza Strip and have recently reached the city of Ashkelon. What makes you think the Palestinians couldn't launch these or missiles of longer range from Judea and Samaria a.k.a West Bank?
I'm laughing at how you speak of other people, as if your some sort of oracle for folks with independent minds. Some facts serve Israel and its backers, others serve the Palestinian or Arab side.
You may be speaking on behalf of your Truth, yet have no monopoly on the truth.
I doubt you've heard of the problem of the Qassam rockets or missiles that have been fired from the Gaza Strip and have recently reached the city of Ashkelon. What makes you think the Palestinians couldn't launch these or missiles of longer range from Judea and Samaria a.k.a West Bank?
I'm laughing at how you speak of other people, as if your some sort of oracle for folks with independent minds. Some facts serve Israel and its backers, others serve the Palestinian or Arab side.
You may be speaking on behalf of your Truth, yet have no monopoly on the truth.
Why not cease your snide remarks with respect to Uri Avnery, and, to a lesser extent, Israel Shamir, and explain to us what it is about Uri you have a quarrel with. Outline the reasons for your dismissal of him.
Can we assume from the absence of "Anti Angie" from the board that he's busy preparing a report for me as to why he's so dismissive of Uri Avnery and Israel Shamir? I just bet!
Someone above said this --
Putting it right on the green line would allow palestinians to still be able to fire missiles into Israel.
Putting it many miles away makes it harder for arabs to hit Israel with missiles.
Someone then said something like "oh, is that a fact?"
Well, YES, actually. Whether that's the reason for the placement of the wall, who knows? But yes, obviously, if you want to make it harder for missiles to hit you, keeping the missle-launchers further away from you is obviously one way to do it.
Putting it right on the green line would allow palestinians to still be able to fire missiles into Israel.
Putting it many miles away makes it harder for arabs to hit Israel with missiles.
Someone then said something like "oh, is that a fact?"
Well, YES, actually. Whether that's the reason for the placement of the wall, who knows? But yes, obviously, if you want to make it harder for missiles to hit you, keeping the missle-launchers further away from you is obviously one way to do it.
I don't owe you any explanations why I dislike Avneri and I. Shamir.
ONE OF THOSE RABID HARDCORE ARCH-ZIONISTS NAMED HIMSELF IN YOUR HONOR!: "ANTI-ANGIE"!!
GEE!! NO ZIONIST HAS NAMED HIMSELF "ANTI-JA" YET!
HOW IS IT THAT YOU RATE SO HIGHLY AND I DON'T!
YOU MUST BE DOING *SOMETHING* RIGHT FOR THEM TO HONOR YOU SO HIGHLY!
HEY RABID ZIONIST NUTCASES!!! DOESN'T ONE OF YOU WANT TO NAME YOURSELF IN *MY* HONOR???
(Angie, I came back from a late 9-11 panel tonight. Of course we all went out to eat in China town afterwards. That's why I'm home so late! Nighty-night!)
GEE!! NO ZIONIST HAS NAMED HIMSELF "ANTI-JA" YET!
HOW IS IT THAT YOU RATE SO HIGHLY AND I DON'T!
YOU MUST BE DOING *SOMETHING* RIGHT FOR THEM TO HONOR YOU SO HIGHLY!
HEY RABID ZIONIST NUTCASES!!! DOESN'T ONE OF YOU WANT TO NAME YOURSELF IN *MY* HONOR???
(Angie, I came back from a late 9-11 panel tonight. Of course we all went out to eat in China town afterwards. That's why I'm home so late! Nighty-night!)
Then shut the hell up, and leave them out of your utterances.
To be taken seriously, you need to dispense with the tortured explanations that just magically happen to fit your world view and pander to your hatred of Israel.
It's a security wall. Pure and simple. Israelis are sick of being blown to bits by desperate people that have been sold a bill of goods by their so-called leaders. Some Palestinians have given up all hope of a normal life and have been told it's all the fault of the Jews. So they hate them. They are being used as pawns in this deadly game. It's just bullshit! The two-bit dictatorial losers like Arafat can't manage their own situation, so they find the easy way out-blame the most likely scapegoats. Israel.
Were the United States to release Israel to respond to these terrorist actions as they should, there would be no more suicide bomb-ings, because there would be no more suicide bomb-ers.
Arafat neds a good old fashioned boot up his ass, the Palestinians need some real leadership to get them out of their current mess, and the rest of the world needs to exterminate Hamas and Hezbollah once and for all. The Palestinians need help, for sure, but it's not coming from Arafat or the terrorist organizations. As their terror tactics spread to Western Europe, watch how fast France and Germany jump on the side of the War on Terror!
BB
It's a security wall. Pure and simple. Israelis are sick of being blown to bits by desperate people that have been sold a bill of goods by their so-called leaders. Some Palestinians have given up all hope of a normal life and have been told it's all the fault of the Jews. So they hate them. They are being used as pawns in this deadly game. It's just bullshit! The two-bit dictatorial losers like Arafat can't manage their own situation, so they find the easy way out-blame the most likely scapegoats. Israel.
Were the United States to release Israel to respond to these terrorist actions as they should, there would be no more suicide bomb-ings, because there would be no more suicide bomb-ers.
Arafat neds a good old fashioned boot up his ass, the Palestinians need some real leadership to get them out of their current mess, and the rest of the world needs to exterminate Hamas and Hezbollah once and for all. The Palestinians need help, for sure, but it's not coming from Arafat or the terrorist organizations. As their terror tactics spread to Western Europe, watch how fast France and Germany jump on the side of the War on Terror!
BB
Every time you'll rely on them or ask me something about them I'll respond somehow. So you shut the fuck up and run away. You've wasted too much of my time on this thread. Run along!
It's not that Israel is really prohibited by the US to go all out against Hamas, Islamic Jihad and al-Aqsa Martyr Brigades, though most do get this impression. Appearances are deceiving in this matter.
Israel's actual problem is two-dimensional: one dimension is Sharon feels he shouldn't act decisively on the security/military front without a green light from the US; the 2nd dimension is that Israelis, being Jews, have plenty of profound moral inhibitions, so it's doubtful such a scenario would ever come to pass.
All Israel haters and bashers disagree with my statement concerning the moral inhibitions. I, however, have been living in Israel so I know what I'm saying.
Israel's actual problem is two-dimensional: one dimension is Sharon feels he shouldn't act decisively on the security/military front without a green light from the US; the 2nd dimension is that Israelis, being Jews, have plenty of profound moral inhibitions, so it's doubtful such a scenario would ever come to pass.
All Israel haters and bashers disagree with my statement concerning the moral inhibitions. I, however, have been living in Israel so I know what I'm saying.
So if you don't like it, you saunter off.
It might interest the poster above that you're not the only one living in Israel. So is URI AVNERY, and he sure as hell does not share your views.
It might interest the poster above that you're not the only one living in Israel. So is URI AVNERY, and he sure as hell does not share your views.
Hi, yourself, JA
When one doesn't like wearing footwear, accidents happen, and I had to spend time in Emergency this mid morning. Minor surgery, no less, and was the surgeon glad to see me hobble out on one foot!!!
So orders to "rest and elevate foot" have to be carried out sooner or later, so I'm away for a while. Glad to see you busy out and about!!
Any feelings re the "dictum" by Israel re Arafat? CBC News World and BBC carried some great coverage re same!
Later friend,
Angie
When one doesn't like wearing footwear, accidents happen, and I had to spend time in Emergency this mid morning. Minor surgery, no less, and was the surgeon glad to see me hobble out on one foot!!!
So orders to "rest and elevate foot" have to be carried out sooner or later, so I'm away for a while. Glad to see you busy out and about!!
Any feelings re the "dictum" by Israel re Arafat? CBC News World and BBC carried some great coverage re same!
Later friend,
Angie
**C'MONNN**, ANGIE!!!
(or JA, or A Concerned Zionist, or Troll or *whoever* you are!!)
****SURGERY!!!???**
YOU GOTTA TAKE *CARE* OF YOURSELF!!!
WHO WOULD THE ARCH-ZIONISTS HAVE TO GANG UP ON AND IMPERSONATE AND OBSCENELY INSULT IF YOU WEREN'T HERE!!!?
THEY OBVIOUSLY PREFER -- IN THEIR SEXIST MISOGYNIST WAY -- TO ATTACK *WOMEN* MORE THAN MEN!!
(Yes, yes, I realize that it's often just their twisted, sick, clumsy, perverted way of trying to 'hit on' you.)
YOU TAKE CARE OF THAT FOOT, IF YOU DON'T WANT PROBLEMS DOWN THE ROAD (SO TO SPEAK, AHEM).
AS FOR MY THOUGHTS ON ISRAEL'S DICTUM TO ARAFAT, WWWELLL, I DON'T HAVE ANY, BUT THERE'S A *VERY* BRIGHT GUY/GAL WHO DOES AT:
Israel decides on expulsion or the execution of Arafat
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/09/1643640_comment.php#1644689
Get rid of Arafat!
by ? Friday September 12, 2003 at 01:30 PM.
I'll repost it below for convenience.
Later lovey,
JA
(or JA, or A Concerned Zionist, or Troll or *whoever* you are!!)
****SURGERY!!!???**
YOU GOTTA TAKE *CARE* OF YOURSELF!!!
WHO WOULD THE ARCH-ZIONISTS HAVE TO GANG UP ON AND IMPERSONATE AND OBSCENELY INSULT IF YOU WEREN'T HERE!!!?
THEY OBVIOUSLY PREFER -- IN THEIR SEXIST MISOGYNIST WAY -- TO ATTACK *WOMEN* MORE THAN MEN!!
(Yes, yes, I realize that it's often just their twisted, sick, clumsy, perverted way of trying to 'hit on' you.)
YOU TAKE CARE OF THAT FOOT, IF YOU DON'T WANT PROBLEMS DOWN THE ROAD (SO TO SPEAK, AHEM).
AS FOR MY THOUGHTS ON ISRAEL'S DICTUM TO ARAFAT, WWWELLL, I DON'T HAVE ANY, BUT THERE'S A *VERY* BRIGHT GUY/GAL WHO DOES AT:
Israel decides on expulsion or the execution of Arafat
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/09/1643640_comment.php#1644689
Get rid of Arafat!
by ? Friday September 12, 2003 at 01:30 PM.
I'll repost it below for convenience.
Later lovey,
JA
Followng up on my remarks above: "Arafat is a murdering thug", by ?, Friday September 12, 2003 at 05:34 AM:
"IF Sharon were to kill him it wd [sic] be the best possible outcome for all parties involved."
Yes EVERY suicide bmbng is Arafat's fault! Although Israel has him confined to a cple of rooms in what's left of his mostly destroyed cmpd and have bggd, tapped, and electronically eavesdropped on ALL his phones, we KNOW Arafat is behind all those suicide bmbngs!
(Have you actually LOOKED into his eyes?
WARNING!!: NOT DIRECTLY!! HE'S TELEPATHIC AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY TELEKINETIC!: HE CAN MAKE YOU BEND TO HIS WILL AND DO *ANYTHING*!!)
Arafat is an *Evile* Evile *Master* Mastermind!! We know that Arafat is responsible for EVERY cloudy day in Israel! When he is gone, the Palestinians wd just lay prone, their cowardly bellies sliding down on the ground, give up, and profusely beg Sharon for mercy at his feet! The suicide bmbngs wd ALL cease! The clouds wd part and the sun wd come out over all of Greater Israel!! Greater Israel wd finally have LABENSRAUM!! Peace wd reign throughout the land with our "MAN OF PEACE" Ariel Sharon ruling over all! Israel wd FINALLY be able to implement its FINAL SOLUTION to THE PALESTINIAN PROBLEM.
But, WHO *THEN* wd be *SO* USEFUL for Isreal to have to blame ALL the bombings on against innocent civilians (Israel's, not Palestinians). WHO *THEN* wd be Israel's nxt BIG BAD BOOOGEYMAN!? *WHO* *THEN* wd Israel use to break agreements with the PA (Palestinian Authority) any time the slightest attack (even in the illegally Occupied Territories) - let alone any *HAMAS* bombing - occurs against anyone Israeli? (Even after Israel has admittedly assassinated nonmilitary Hamas leaders who have directed *NO* bombings!) It might be REALLY *STUPID* for Israel to get rid of Arafat!!
Hmmm..., maybe Arafat is MORE useful to *ISRAEL* than to Palestinians, AFTER ALL!!
MAYBE WE BETTER *KEEP* HIM!!!
1. Arafat IS a murdering thug. He should have been gone 20 years ago. He has been the single greatest obstacle to his peoples' progress in the world. Their own gullibility is a distant second. Live and learn. Hopefully.
2. His decades of scapegoating Israel and the Jews for all the Palestinians' problems are DIRECTLY to blame for the current mood amongst not just the Palestinian Islamic Fundamentalist America and Israel haters, but has fueled the anger and resentment of others all over the Middle East. This, despite the fact that other Islamic Fundamentalist groups consistently rejected the Palestinians in their time of need. Arafat has succeeded in making the Palestinians' plight a lightning rod issue amongst all of radical Islam, in spite of the fact that they all despise their Palestinian brothers and sisters. I guess you don't need much charisma in the Middle East.
3. Israel would not need Sharon if they weren't under constant attack by the above. Barak would suffice. Hell, Mickey Mouse would suffice.
4. It continually amazes me how some of us don't learn our lessons of history, make long and complicated excuses for the truly evil characters in this world, and try to convince others that reality is nonsense and vice versa. When the foundation of one's belief system is fundamentally wrong, one has to manufacture increasingly implausible "reasoning" to support it.
It's as simple as a schoolyard fistfight. In certain settings, the only thing some people respect is pure brute force and raw power. In a very similar way, the only way to settle this fight once and for all is for Israel to squash those sworn to her destruction, and demonstrate to those that remain that she will tolerate no more attacks, but will initiate none. This approach REQUIRES the death or imprisonment of Arafat, simply because he will NEVER agree to peace under any circumstances. If he does, his power over his people is gone.
2. His decades of scapegoating Israel and the Jews for all the Palestinians' problems are DIRECTLY to blame for the current mood amongst not just the Palestinian Islamic Fundamentalist America and Israel haters, but has fueled the anger and resentment of others all over the Middle East. This, despite the fact that other Islamic Fundamentalist groups consistently rejected the Palestinians in their time of need. Arafat has succeeded in making the Palestinians' plight a lightning rod issue amongst all of radical Islam, in spite of the fact that they all despise their Palestinian brothers and sisters. I guess you don't need much charisma in the Middle East.
3. Israel would not need Sharon if they weren't under constant attack by the above. Barak would suffice. Hell, Mickey Mouse would suffice.
4. It continually amazes me how some of us don't learn our lessons of history, make long and complicated excuses for the truly evil characters in this world, and try to convince others that reality is nonsense and vice versa. When the foundation of one's belief system is fundamentally wrong, one has to manufacture increasingly implausible "reasoning" to support it.
It's as simple as a schoolyard fistfight. In certain settings, the only thing some people respect is pure brute force and raw power. In a very similar way, the only way to settle this fight once and for all is for Israel to squash those sworn to her destruction, and demonstrate to those that remain that she will tolerate no more attacks, but will initiate none. This approach REQUIRES the death or imprisonment of Arafat, simply because he will NEVER agree to peace under any circumstances. If he does, his power over his people is gone.
You know, I was going to comment on the above spiel by newcomer, "Billy Bob", but I realized that in the past five months here I've commented on this same hogwash over and over. The names may change, but the posts, regardless of how they're worded, sound the same.
I'll let someone else deal with this one -- or not!
I like it how you turn things around. You call lucid reality descriptions "hogwsh", whereas your attempts to revolt against these descriptions are the genuine hogwash.
Or maybe you couldn't summon any Avneri output to debate Bily Bob's commentary...
Or maybe you couldn't summon any Avneri output to debate Bily Bob's commentary...
YOU'RE *NONCRITICAL THINKIFIER* !!!
(When you're not impersonating another poster!)
(When you're not impersonating another poster!)
Actually that was the first time I ever used the word "hogwash". I don't quite know where it came from. Maybe my keyboard has a mind of its own. It's worth looking into at any rate.
What!? You say 'hi' to Critical Thinker, but you don't say hi to me?
(Er, I guess we're supposed to call him "anti-angie" now, so that he can slither back onto indymedia.)
Well! I've never been so miffed!
This is what I get for being up in the middle of the night for a snack break. Thanks for nothing!
(I fell asleep early about an hour early tonight, after I came back from a meeting and a late night coffeeshop break with a friend. I went to a "Jewish Voices for Peace" meeting. Also, this moderately new group, "Jews for a Free Palestine" also sent representatives. The former has a website, the latter will have one very soon. The positive energy of both were great.)
Okay, you had *NO* way of knowing I was up (right?), so I won't stay miffed. Anyway..., I hope your foot is better. And I hope you have a nice day. Well, I better get back to sleep so that I can wake up 'tomorrow' morning without feeling wiped out. Here's a toast of middle-of-the-night hot cocoa to you!
Did you see that awful post that anti-angie left for you in that other thread? He said some really mean things about me too!
:-(
Nighty-night!
JA
:-)
(Er, I guess we're supposed to call him "anti-angie" now, so that he can slither back onto indymedia.)
Well! I've never been so miffed!
This is what I get for being up in the middle of the night for a snack break. Thanks for nothing!
(I fell asleep early about an hour early tonight, after I came back from a meeting and a late night coffeeshop break with a friend. I went to a "Jewish Voices for Peace" meeting. Also, this moderately new group, "Jews for a Free Palestine" also sent representatives. The former has a website, the latter will have one very soon. The positive energy of both were great.)
Okay, you had *NO* way of knowing I was up (right?), so I won't stay miffed. Anyway..., I hope your foot is better. And I hope you have a nice day. Well, I better get back to sleep so that I can wake up 'tomorrow' morning without feeling wiped out. Here's a toast of middle-of-the-night hot cocoa to you!
Did you see that awful post that anti-angie left for you in that other thread? He said some really mean things about me too!
:-(
Nighty-night!
JA
:-)
(Anti-angie's [let's call him, for sake of argument, hahaha!] remarks were in "The Politics of Anti-Semitism" thread.)
JA just make your case as to why you think they are the same person.
Otherwise you are just wasting space and you should return to whatever you usually do around here.
Otherwise you are just wasting space and you should return to whatever you usually do around here.
JA, what are you saying? That the person publishing under the EDITORS: ANTI-ANGIE IS CRITICAL THINKER" was actually you? Well, doesn't that just take the cake and all the rest as well!
Thought it was you, actually, but I was not sure. I had no way of knowing, did I, that you were this new person on the Board. I mean, it's not as if we are, as Mr. Gehrig said last week, " folie-a-daux".
And the idea of sending off good morning wishes or any other in such circumstances was a bit too much of a risk. How awful would it have been were you not you, etc.
Don't be miffed! I don't like "miffed" especially if I'm the "miffee". I am sorry.
Had the bloody (oops, wrong choice of words there) dressing removed this a.m., amid much howling and wailing, and averted eyes. It's healing nicely I'm told, but we have to go through this again on Wednesday and Friday.
Glad you had a good meeting, etc., and I am now off to quickly scan the Board before I go to bed. It's been a rough morning to date, and it's just begun.
Just a brief note! If you're planning on using a nom de plume, you must not expect me to always recognize it's you behind same. Remember "Saskatchewan"?
PS And you think - or you are definite, rather - that "Anti Angie" is Critical Thinker Reinvented? Most interesting concept. I'll mull over it for a while. (Ahem!)
A toast to you too
Angie
Thought it was you, actually, but I was not sure. I had no way of knowing, did I, that you were this new person on the Board. I mean, it's not as if we are, as Mr. Gehrig said last week, " folie-a-daux".
And the idea of sending off good morning wishes or any other in such circumstances was a bit too much of a risk. How awful would it have been were you not you, etc.
Don't be miffed! I don't like "miffed" especially if I'm the "miffee". I am sorry.
Had the bloody (oops, wrong choice of words there) dressing removed this a.m., amid much howling and wailing, and averted eyes. It's healing nicely I'm told, but we have to go through this again on Wednesday and Friday.
Glad you had a good meeting, etc., and I am now off to quickly scan the Board before I go to bed. It's been a rough morning to date, and it's just begun.
Just a brief note! If you're planning on using a nom de plume, you must not expect me to always recognize it's you behind same. Remember "Saskatchewan"?
PS And you think - or you are definite, rather - that "Anti Angie" is Critical Thinker Reinvented? Most interesting concept. I'll mull over it for a while. (Ahem!)
A toast to you too
Angie
No matter who you are, how disgusting a person you are, if you hate the countries angie hates, she's a fan of yours.
I don't "hate" any countries, sir. In fact, "hate" is a waste of time.
I do despise the leaders/governments of several countries, and Israel is one of them. One, but not the only, one, and this is always subject to change depending on how just and democratic said country behaves.
That's the first good thing you've said in a while.
I wish you would keep that in mind more when discussing the current issues (and past history) in length.
I wish you would keep that in mind more when discussing the current issues (and past history) in length.
I did not write that stupid phrase entitled "Corrector of Angie" or whatever the hell it is. Don't you people have anything better to do? Apparently not. Go sit on it.
Now he's also suspecting "Ralph" too may be "Critical Thinker"...He has never established beyond doubt that "Critical Thinker" is "anti Angie"; he even admits there is reasonable doubt in this regard.
As one of the "Zionist posters" on this site, I don't think "anti Angie" was trying to "mess with her", but rather to get her to look at Mideast history rationally, without her inclination to automatically embrace every anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist garbage and lies.
"Ralph", if you're still posting on this site, I encourage you to keep on doing so. Don't let psychos like JA scare you away! Hang in here!! Keep up the good fight!!!
JA, I urge you once more: go get treatment for your paranoia in a psychiatric hospital or some mental institution and then try getting a life.
As one of the "Zionist posters" on this site, I don't think "anti Angie" was trying to "mess with her", but rather to get her to look at Mideast history rationally, without her inclination to automatically embrace every anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist garbage and lies.
"Ralph", if you're still posting on this site, I encourage you to keep on doing so. Don't let psychos like JA scare you away! Hang in here!! Keep up the good fight!!!
JA, I urge you once more: go get treatment for your paranoia in a psychiatric hospital or some mental institution and then try getting a life.
JA Im not here to try to provide evidence for your personal fights.
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