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Helicopter Pictures of SF Demo
by Peter Maiden (pmaiden [at]
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 5:48 AM
The ANSWER Coalition sent up a helicopter with this intrepid indymedia photographer during the 1/18 demonstration. These pictures are the result. My estimate of the size of the demo? 125,000+. It was shoulder to shoulder in the Civic Center and back nearly to the foot of Market Street.
§From the helicopter
by Peter Maiden (pmaiden [at] Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 5:48 AM
§From the helicopter
by Peter Maiden (pmaiden [at] Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 5:48 AM
§From the helicopter
by Peter Maiden (pmaiden [at] Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 5:48 AM
§From the helicopter
by Peter Maiden (pmaiden [at] Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 5:48 AM
§From the helicopter
by Peter Maiden (pmaiden [at] Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 5:48 AM

Comments  (Hide Comments)

by iratemix
(iratemix [at] Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 7:07 AM
Hello ANSWER "leaders", don't you think spending all that money on renting a helicopter just to verify the success we all know is evident in these Anti War marches is a waste? Why not send that money to groups like Voices in the Wilderness instead, where their "human shield" actions might actually save 1000s of lives if there is a war. Just because you got this money does not mean you can waste it for useless purposes
by War Is Not the Answer, But Neither Is ANSWER
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 7:13 AM
They probably got the helicopter from Slobedan milosivich, or whatever his dumb ass name is.

Fuck ANSWER. They suck.
by PlayaHata
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 7:25 AM
I guess since they "wasted" so much money and resources building a popular anti-war movement they figured they could "waste" a little more to force the major media to report the truth, that Americans are against war. Something most groups could never do.

Whats wrong with you people? Don't you have someone better to pick on or are obvious targets too blase?

ANSWER is a group of dedicated people working with very little money or resources, little media coverage and no corporate grants. Unlike some of the other major anti-war groups.

If you don't think a large public display against war affects public opinion here and around the world in a major way, you have a peter pan mentality.

But thats just my opinion.
by ziggy
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 7:29 AM
Regardless of the merits of renting a helicopter, the photos are helpful in laying to waste some of the lies we see in the media. Look at this case study with the San Francisco Chronicle:

In any event, people bemoaning ANSWER is getting a bit old. Get off your duffs and organize. ANSWER has been a strong force only because others haven't done the hard work. I don't like ANSWER, but they have done a pretty good job getting people organized, and they even manage to keep their agenda in the background for the most part (the fact that you don't see most people in the peace marches wondering about ANSWER's history is proof positive of that very point).

Frankly, I get the feeling that at least half the people that bother to post flames about ANSWER only do so because they have an agenda of dissin the peace movement.
by spectator
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 7:29 AM
In my opinion, the helicopter and photos provide dramatic evidence of the success of the march that would otherwise come down to a matter of verbal opinions by people who literally lacked the perspective to see the full extent of the size of the demonstration. I doubt that the expense was that much. It's part of self-sufficiency to not have to rely on, say, a police estimate to see how many protestors the march drew. By the way, I'm not connected with the march organizers in any capacity, don't know them personally, and I'm not even a member of the political Left. I'm just someone who's always wanted to see a photo of a demonstration like that for myself. I've attended- and even spoken at, or helped organize- demonstrations that drew many fewer people- even been rained out- and I've never considered any of them failures, but democratic protest is to some extent a game where success is measured by the numbers of people attending.
by black star liberation
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 7:33 AM
ANSWER sure has allot of money. Instead of spending all of it so people can go out and hold picket signs, why don't they funnel that money into grass-roots community projects which take direct action towards stopping "the war", instead of march after march, protest after protest, we chant "stop the war" only to see "the war" agress more, not only on Iraq, but all around the world. From the streets here at home where pigs occupy our communities, to the West Bank where tanks chase down 8 year olds. Protest after protest, chant after chant, we continue to recognize the authority of a system were supposedly against by begging to it on our knees. Fuck that. Protesting is fun, but revolution won't come by limiting ourselves to a political arena confined within the legitimate systematic policies of liberal reform and social patriotism. If you really want change, drop the picket sign and pick up a ...


by PlayaHata
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 7:44 AM
How about drop the computer keyboard and pick up your ass down to the answer office and start organizing some real grassroots projects. I know they could use more help and are open to ideas, that is if you are willing to put in the footwork to accomplish them.

Yes, I am an ANSWER volunteer. So sue me.
by R2J
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 7:51 AM
what is ANSWER's agenda anyway? do they actually have a strategy for "ending the war on Iraq?"

and yeah, it's quite cool that these photos are available...who gives a damn if the helicopter cost some cash. it's like the breakaway march...respect ANSWER's ability to get the huge crowds, but don't let their six block march and virtually endless supply of as-long-as-they're-anti-war-but-the-rest-of-their-politics-might-suck speakers represent the burgeoning anti-war movement.
by Great Pics
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 8:10 AM
I used to live on Potrero, but now live in eastern Orgeon. I've been reading about the big demos on SF indymedia, but couldn't find any pictures or coverage showing the size of the demo on (corporate) media news sites. These photos are truly encouraging, and lay bare the PR shill claims of American support for a war on Iraq. You've successfully bypassed the corporate media, and exposed to the world the strength in the voice of the American people against the war. This is a real Indymedia success!
by Safe-Surf COINTELwaatch
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 8:41 AM
Typical COINTELPRO tool: associate patriotic citizens exercising their free speech rights with the media-manufactured bad guys of yesteryear. Poor little freeper.
by Xylem Tavar Galadhon
(msgill [at] Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 9:14 AM
Man oh man -- i am so glad Answer spent the $ for that copter. i do wish the copter guy would've gotten in a little closer at least once to do what i thought Answer was going to do with the pics: make a much tighter estimate, by counting the # of people in a square, then the # of squares in Civic Center Plaza, but the far off pics are too hard to do that for. still, i am quite certain there were at *least* 150K people there (there is an estimate on the DC site of 265K people there, and i think if you use the same methodology in SF it would come out to 150-200K).

and i'm totally with the people supporting Answer, i'm glad the Answer volunteer is right here fielding the criticisms -- you guys have been doing *awesome*, you've ignited the start of this wave, and it will be gathering more and more people. and i'm glad Answer isn't taking credit for all either, on their website they admit that the Feb 15 rally is organized by others, and Answer is just supporting.

anyway -- i love the pics. i will download some, and send them to friends.

and rallying is only the beginning -- beyond this, the resistance must be brought into our communities, and the cost to the State ratcheted upwards so it is ever more difficult for them to easily begin this war. this time, we have a lot of European counterparts standing with us.

Power to the Peeps---
by Kathryn Kealy
(Circe078 [at] Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 9:48 AM
I went to the last demonstration in october in san francisco which was an awesome experience tons of people stating their feelings in a NON-destructive,peaceful rational way...I couldn't make it to the protest today (1/18/03) but going to work in the financial district tonight I walked by all the newspaper stands knocked over in front of the transamerica building and the graffiti that read STOP THE WAR...I'm 24 years old and I was sooooo fucking disappointed that the people of my generation and those older and younger can actually believe that doing destructive things gets you any further in the crusade for peace!
these things might get you media noterity they might get you noticed but will do nothing to further the goal!
our president and past presidents have been bullies, our capatalist corporations have exploited every race in this country and every cheap third world country around the globe, why? oil and money and to support those causes our bullies will employ any means necessary in force to accomplish it. Hello???????? look to history being the EMPIRE with a mad king george will only bring the people think of the things that will make out society better for us and act on them but 10 bucks says knocking over shit and tagging will get you NOWHERE be more MATURE than our leaders.
by Anarchist
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 10:02 AM
These pictures are great. Answer has terrible politics but what they are doing is working in a common goal towards preventing the war and dealing a heavy blow to Cheney and Co. I agree, if you think having 200,000 people march against war doesnt have a real impact, you arent thinking right.

On the same token, if you think that militant protests which attack the institutions you all claim to be against isn't effective or help the greater cause of stopping the war, you are also not thinking right. Almost all major social goals are achieved through militant protesting, including Gandhi who advocated theft from the British Empire.
by l.,
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 10:47 AM
The fifth picture down is By Far The Most
potent and Should be the only one that is released to the larger Press.
by one of the editors
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 3:07 PM
A comment by "wd" was hidden. It contained a truly awesome pic that everyone should see. It also contained the following text:

"Why such small pix? If ever there was a necessity for posting really biggies, it's at marches such as this. So what if it takes a bit longer to download"

Download time is a class issue. Many of our readers can't afford fast, new computers. To burden them with glacial download times is insulting. It also pretty much guarantees that a lot of them will never see the picture.

Oversize pictures also screw up the wrap. This, too, is a class issue. Many of our readers can't afford big screens. When you screw up the wrap with oversize pics, or long URLs, you make the text in the entire thread extremely difficult to read.

In the future, do *NOT* post oversize pics to this site. Post them to another site, preferably your own. Then post a link here.
by Heidi
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 3:25 PM
That's what i've been looking for. Thank you SO much for posting these.

by to me.
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 3:27 PM
The "black bloc" adolescents that rampaged are agent provocateurs, working for the SFPD to give the Media something to cover.
by dr. No
(no [at] Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 4:23 PM
I've been watching KRON and the other networks. They are only giving verbal reports of the demonstration. This is exactly the same as refusing to cover the pro-Chavez demonstrations in Venezuela. If it doesn't appear on CBS it didn't happen!

Thank god for Indymedia.
THANKS for these photos. I, and others, will be copying them, posting them, and forwarding them. Overhead photos, or photos from buildings are the only way to really estimate crowd sizes.

And, in my opinion, rallies without such photos are not noticed as much, because no one really knows who to believe concerning crowd sizes. The mainstream media and the participants often give wildly incorrect and different numbers.

I especially thank Indymedia for posting one of the photos on the FRONTPAGE where it actually will be noticed. I rarely have the time to look at all the photos to find the overhead ones.

I suggest putting a list of links on the FRONTPAGE to the pages here with good overhead photos. I suggest ALL INDYMEDIA SITES do the same. It would blow away the maintstream media lies, and would attract many new people to Indymedia sites on a permanent basis.

I used such an overhead photo on some Venezuela news compilations to blow away the lies of the opposition to President Chavez. Pro-Chavez rallies have been HUGE too. See links below:

Venezuela's oil coup-strike-lockout for the rich. Help President Chavez!

In 1974 80% of oil income went to the state. Today 80% of Venezuelan oil income goes to the rich, and to "operating costs." Only 20% goes to the state. Chavez reforms will help reverse this in 2003. This is why the coup-plotters are in such a hurry to overthrow the fairly-ELECTED Chavez government, to prevent these reforms, and to reverse others already-implemented. Reforms that help the poor and lower middle class. Massive corporate-media disinformation, destabilization campaign going on inside Venezuela. Support President Chavez! Progressive news search form, news sites, search shortcuts, and compilation of Venezuela news excerpts. Older version. Comments add latest Venezuela news sites, search shortcuts. --Later version with more excerpts from articles. --Media war. Cisneros media empire, etc..
by Darla Reynolds Sparks
(drsok1937 [at] Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 5:27 PM
The 21st Century is issuing in a new truth-gathering via the internet! No longer will moneyed despots with control over most information services be able to hide the truth! Accept my profound thanks for these photos and appreciation of your involvement.
by Ryon Harms
(lovewords10 [at] Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 5:28 PM
I smell a Revolution in the air. This the time for our generation to step up to the plate and change our government. Enough with globalization and down with G.W. Hitler! I congratulate all of those in S.F. and hope that the struggle against war continues. A million gallons of oil are not worth 1/10 of any American, or Iraqi's life.
by Lyk0s
(sub-cmdr-lycos [at] Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 5:43 PM
While some may redicule ANSWER for sending up a copter and not giving the money to VITW. We MUST remember that Joe Sixpac in Cleavland doesn't care about what VITW says. He watches FOX. We may not be able to disuade him from totally believing the NewsSpeak directed to him, but thes pictures WILL put a chink in the process. Get thes pictures out to the media. Get them out. Call your news papers, write to and ask them why they are publishing propaganda and not the news!!!
by Cecile Dobelbower
(cmwdms [at] Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 5:51 PM
These photos are extraordinary, fantastic, magnificent and overwhelming! How very wonderful it is to see people expressing their feelings in a very patriotic manner about bad government policy. I am truly heartened and was there in spirit.
by Jerry Greenberg
(ajerrygreenberg [at] Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 5:55 PM
"Washington - From Bahrain to Brazil and at a national rally in Washington, protesters worldwide are shouting "No" to U.S. war plans for Iraq.

Buses rolled into Washington from many parts of the country, delivering thousands for a weekend of dissent that organizers promised would be peaceful, and nature conspired to make cold."

Thanks for those photographs . They bring back memories. I once lived near that area, in the town of San Bruno. I had a small aircraft, a little 150, "The Flying Ignatz" that I had tied down at half moon bay, and every once in awhile I would fly north, past San Francisco towards Petaluma or other places. I never got very close to the center of San Francisco since that would infringe on the Airport traffic area and they frown on little 150's infringing on their zone. But I still remember flying past the San Francisco skyline and pointing towards mount Tam, which is a large landmark in the area . Anyway I appreciate those pictures ; thanks a lot.

by palika
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 6:06 PM
There are many essential tasks in changing a paradigm, a government, a civilization. The many tasks make up the whole and complete approach to solving a problem. We can take a lesson from the success of corporate moguls here. They have a specialized department to "fight" their battle and insure success funded and mangaged from every possible angle and pr is certainly not the least of them. Organizing a march and documenting its attendance is crucial - especially in a world where media is controlled by wealthy corporate syndicates that only report what serves their point of view - in this case "its just a few crackpots who oppose a war in Iraq", "the war is to eradicate evil leaders and countries who don't "know" what success and the blessing of the one true God looks like", and "we" (entitled westerners) are innocent and good". The good fight/resistance against, global capitalism, ruthless destruction of the natural earth and its balance, the eradication of sexism, classism. racism, and materialism are inextricably one and the same and will only be won by various strands of one dynamic web. Direct action is vitally important in communities and environments and media; the espousing of and sharing of alternative ideas on a large scale is absolutely essential as well in a ever increasing media frenzied and hyper linked world.

We've got one helicopter????? Well they've gotten tens of thousands - media and military and they use them both ruthlessly to prove their point of view, to try and convert you and the majority of folks that their way and their ideas are yours and are divinely right. That's why if you read any major newspaper of the day after the marches, you get no substance of the anti - war movements point of view, no real information like you find on indy media about our gluttonous use and thirst for oil as the sole motivation for the US governement to control the land of Iraq and all that around the Caspian Sea region and the facts that we are already there already bombing and will continue to do so until we have direct control over that land or a leader who will do our bidding.

My only complaint is that the aerial photos are not splashed on the front page of every major newspaper and web site accompanied by the point of view of the folks who knew it was important to be there and intelligent informed deconstruction of the lies that are fed to the general masses.

As for ANSWER, thankyou for your service, everyone has a responsibility to fulfill in this multi-faceted struggle to save humanity from their small minded, grasping and its definite spiral toward self destruction.
by Jim Severdia
(nvmtnman [at] Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 7:00 PM
I agree with the estimates of this writer--as minimums. The mainstream media has it way too low...

The march began at 12:10 PM at around 6th and Taylor--where I stationed myself to watch the procession pass--not trusting the media to come up with any real numbers. The march participants at that point stretched all the way back to the foot of Market Street--a distance of about 6300 feet--and that did not include the people in and around Justin Herman Plaza, the side streets and those who went direct to Civic Center.
It is not unreasonable, given the width of Market Street to assume that, on average (the street was packed!) 15 people abreast were waiting to walk to the route. Assuming also that the loose "rows" of people were spaced about 2 feet apart, then simple arithmetic says that 15 X 3150 or 47250 people were there waiting alone to march.
However, in addition to that mental number, I stood at the starting point and allowed the entire march to pass, periodically estimating the flow by me, in people per minute, to arrive at an estimate of 68,000 - 88,000 people who passed by me! The march took 2 hours and thirty minutes to pass. The first 80 minutes seemed fairly uniform, allowing me to refine my initial estimates of people per minute passing me by to 400-600 ppm. Then for twenty minutes, the march picked up a little speed, as well as stretching almost unbroken across all of Market Street, plus one sidewalk--for that 20 minutes it seemed almost a continuous tight 30 people wide--as opposed to the nearer to 15-20 wide average when it was confined to the 4 lanes of the street.
I felt that I now had a good grasp of the estimating of the numbers and for the next 50 minutes my every 10 minute sample gave rates of 600, then 400, then 300, 400, and 300ppm.
This produces the numbers of 68K - 88K as the number who *passed by me*. It does not include the numbers who may have been on side streets paralleling the march, nor the ones who went direct to Civic Center--and at least one account indicates Civic Center as being half full before the march began--a number I will attribute to be from 10,000 - 30,000. Another person said to me that the Center was full half an hour after the march started arriving (30 minutes @ the 400-600ppm initial passing rate is 12,000 to 18,000 people) which also explains why the end of the march found it so difficult to enter the Center from McCallister, when it finally arrived at 3:00PM. People were left half a block out on the sidestreets such as Larkin and Hyde, unable to reach the Center, until the earlier masses had begun to filter away.
Civic Center and its adjacent streets form a rectangular box 600 x 750 feet in dimension. 450,000 square feet. Assuming a density of one person per square yard, and three for every two yards *minimum* is more likely from the pics--the numbers would be 50-75,000 in the Center alone...
Who is the media really reporting for...hmm?
by skeptic
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 7:01 PM
These "photos" are just photoshopped arial images. They're no proof of crowd sizes. Besides how could I get crowd sizes from an image anyway? How many people fit in a pixel? Also, so what if so many people oppose the war? Bush is our elected leader, he governs constitutionally and unless you are talking about overthrowing representative democracy and replacing it with something else then he governs according to YOUR rules.

Please, get real people.
by jpl
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 7:04 PM
About larger image files: download speed is for the most part unrelated to actual computer speed. A 56K modem is slow enough that all but the oldest (Mac 512K anyone ?) computers will be waiting on the modem, not the other way around. As to formatting and display problems, it's dirt simple to publish thumbnail indices with links to the full size ones, so folks don't need to wait for downloads of images they may not care to see. The index page will be a lot tidier as well.

Maybe you should try better to understand and exploit the media technology you are using before throwing around loaded phrases like "class issue".
by Jeff Gould
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 8:27 PM
PHOTOSHOPPED INDEED, as far as I am concerned Bush governs according to corporate rules.
I am proud to have been one of 100,000 who participated in this awsome event ! If Your are a skeptic so be it ,but don't lay that facist dogma on others.
Please try to soak up someone elses view of history in the making!!

I ask: What is glory?
Is greed ok?
Who are we?
by Jack Straw
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 8:36 PM
Bush was not elected, Mr "skeptic", he was "selected" by 5 Supreme Court "justices", 2 of whom had close relatives working in his campaign. It's rare that this many people take to the streets of any city, but the marches in SF, DC, the record march in Portland (20,000+ by *police* estimates*),...should give you a clue.
I generally find ANSWER's politics pathetic. But all this carping about the helicopter is downright foolish.
by Pat McCollum
(dotman [at] Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 8:46 PM
Thanks for those great pix. The money could not have been spent better.

Still laughing about 'photoshop'. That is not, of course, a feeble delusion offered in defense of the official lies. It's 'skepticism'. Nothin but a blowed up cat, folks.
by Andy Miller
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 8:48 PM
If you'd been there, you would certainly believe the photos. And he wasn't elected, bozo, he was selected
by Shari
(d_pixie2u [at] Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 8:51 PM
Bush may be our "elected" president, but he is not the United States itself. Constitutionally, he does NOT decide whether to go to war or not. Congress has that right. That was put into the Constitution in order to make sure that the people were accurately represented in the decision to go to war. After all, the President's job is supposed to be to represent the people in his decisions. Does "governmental elections by the people FOR the people ring a bell"?
So, What we have now is a man who has no checks or balances on him, making decisions for Millions of people. We are simply here to tell a representative of ours how we want his decision to be made.
by Alex Newman
(alex777 [at] Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 8:53 PM
1) Scrap your SUV. Yes, recycle it. Buy a hybrid vehicle. Walk to the store.
2) Fit low-energy lightbulbs. Lighting uses the most electricity in your home. Save yourself money, and save a lot of resources and pollution. Very smart.
3) Visit and get to work. There's plenty out there.
4) Fit solar panels.
5) Understand hemp. It's not just for hippies, y'know.
6) REMEMBER THIS. Money is not wealth. If you poison the air to make a billion dollars, how rich will you be when you can't breathe? Money has become more important than human life, than soil quality, water quality, air quality. PROBLEM! Don't believe me? Go to . AND NO I AM NOT A BLOODY COMMUNIST!!!! You think now is bad? Wait till the water wars start! (I do not jest.)

(And if you don't know what any of this has to do with war, then you really should get a passport and visit some other countries outside America...)
p.s. Turn off your television. Click. Ahhhh!
by skeptic
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 9:05 PM
jpl, you don't get it do you? If you're using a 56k modem it takes a long time to download lots of high-bandwidth pictures. It's not anything to do with "the computer waiting for the modem", it's to do with BEING CHARGED FOR BEING ON THE PHONE. Plus when you're online with a modem noone else in the house can use the phone. Publisihing high-bandwidth images on indymedia means that you cut off access to lots of people.

Second as regards all the reaction to my post. As it happens I believe that there were well more than 200,000. But I don't know and that picture doesn't prove it to me. I am more convinced by actual counts made by people like "Jim Servedia" above. I can tell next to NOTHING from the photo.

Third, as regards all the stuff about Bush. I don't accept him as a leader, but all the folks on here whining about him and trashing the Black bloc at the same time are part of the system that got him into power. The name of that system is Representative Democracy. So go on out and Vote away your life in the next elections. Turn over your power and decision making to Mr.Nader or Mr.Lieberman or whoever. It's your system bozos and you keep supporting it. Dragging your sorry ass out to complain once every couple of years when Bush/Lieberman/Nader takes the power that YOU ceded to him does little. If you really don't want war then you'd better implement democracy for the first time ever. Otherwise you'd better start polishing up your platitudes and practicing your hand-wringing.
by Alex Newman
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 9:39 PM
Good points skeptic, but please (for those of us who must have missed something) explain what you mean by "implement democracy". Are you referring to impeachment?

>If you really don't want war then you'd better implement democracy for the first time ever. Otherwise >you'd better start polishing up your platitudes and practicing your hand-wringing.
> Preemptive Impeachment
> Law Professor Stands Ready To Draft
> Articles For Any Member Of The House
> By Kéllia Ramares
> Online Journal Contributing Editor
> 1-14-2
> While the United States will constantly strive to enlist the support
> of the international community, we will not hesitate to act alone, if
> necessary, to exercise our right of self defense by acting
> preemptively against such terrorists, to prevent them from doing harm
> against our people and our country . . . -The National Security
> Strategy of the United States of America
> "We sentenced Nazi leaders to death for waging a war of aggression,"
> says International Law Professor Francis A. Boyle of the University of
> Illinois, Urbana-Champaign. By contrast, Prof. Boyle wants merely to
> impeach George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and John Ashcroft
> for their plans to invade Iraq and create a police state in America.
> Boyle is offering his services as counsel, free of charge, to any
> member of the House of Representatives willing to sponsor articles of
> impeachment. He is experienced in this work, having undertaken it in
> 1991 for the late Rep. Henry B. Gonzalez (D-TX), in an effort to stop
> the first Persian Gulf War. It takes only one member to introduce
> articles of impeachment. Of course, it will take many more than that
> to vote for impeachment, which will culminate in a trial in the
> Senate. Boyle is confident that, once the articles are introduced,
> others, including Republicans, will co-sponsor them. But we have to
> convince our Representatives that impeachment is necessary for the
> country and politically safe for them. This non-violent,
> constitutional process may be our best way of stopping World War III
> and saving our civil rights.
> Grounds for Impeachment Article II Sec. 4 of the Constitution states
> that: "The President, Vice President and all Civil Officers of the
> United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for and
> Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and
> Misdemeanors." Boyle says that waging a war of aggression is a crime
> under the Nuremberg Charter, Judgment and Principles. "It's very
> clear," he adds, "if you read all the press reports, they are going to
> devastate Baghdad, a metropolitan area of 5 million people. The
> Nuremberg Charter clearly says the wanton devastation of a city is a
> Nuremberg war crime."
> The United States is a party to the Nuremberg Charter, Judgment and
> Principles, and thus is constitutionally bound to obey them. "The
> Constitution, in Article 6, says that international treaties are the
> supreme law of the land here in the United States of America. So all
> we would be doing here, in this impeachment campaign," Boyle says, "is
> impeaching them for violating international treaties, as incorporated
> into the United States Constitution, as well as the Constitution
> itself."
> Bush Cabal Repudiates Nuremberg Principles
> We don't have to wait for the devastation of Baghdad to impeach the
> Bush cabal because they have already repudiated the Nuremberg Charter
> via the so-called Bush Doctrine of preventive war and pre-emptive
> attack. "This doctrine of pre-emptive warfare or pre-emptive attack
> was rejected soundly in the Nuremberg Judgment, " Boyle says. "The
> Nuremberg Judgment . . . rejected this Nazi doctrine of international
> law of alleged self-defense." The Bush Doctrine, embodied in the
> National Security Strategy document, published on the White House web
> site, is appalling, Boyle says. "It reads like a Nazi planning
> document prior to the Second World War."
> The Fruit Doesn't Fall Far >From the Tree
> As Rep. Henry B. Gonzalez explained on the floor of the House in 1991,
> his articles charged the elder Bush with:
> 1) Violating the Equal Protection Clause by having minorities and poor
> whites, who were the majority of the soldiers in the Middle East,
> "fight a war for oil to preserve the lifestyles of the wealthy."
> 2) Violating "the Constitution, Federal law, and the UN Charter by
> bribing, intimidating, and threatening others, including the members
> of the UN Security Council, to support belligerent acts against Iraq."
> 3) Violating the Nuremberg principles by conspiring to engage in a
> massive war against Iraq that would cause tens of thousands of
> civilian deaths.
> 4) Committing "the United States to acts of war without congressional
> consent and contrary to the UN Charter and international law." (This
> refers to the lack of a formal declaration of war, as required by the
> Constitution).
> 5) Committing crimes against the peace by leading the United States
> into aggressive war against Iraq, in violation of Article 24 of the UN
> Charter, the Nuremberg Charter, other international instruments and
> treaties, and the Constitution of the United States.
> Boyle believes that the articles he drafted for Gonzalez' effort to
> impeach George H. W. Bush, the father, could still serve as a basis
> for impeaching George W. Bush, the son.
> Are the People Ready for Another Impeachment? Impeachment has the
> advantage of bypassing the U.S. Supreme Court, which illegally
> installed Bush in the Oval Office. The same "Justices" would have the
> final word on legal challenges to constitutional abominations, such as
> the USA PATRIOT Act and the Homeland Security Act, both of which the
> White House rammed through a Congress frightened by the September 11th
> attacks and the as yet unsolved anthrax attacks on Capitol Hill.
> But no matter how blatant the violations of constitutional, statutory
> and international law are, impeachment is still a political process.
> Republicans control the Congress and many Democrats, fearful of being
> labeled "soft on terrorism" might be unwilling to challenge the Bush
> cabal. It would take tremendous public pressure to get a reluctant
> Congress to impeach. Still, Boyle thinks he can garner public support
> by adding an article of impeachment against John Ashcroft.
> "We know for a fact that there are Republicans and Democrats and
> Independents and Greens, even very conservative Republicans, such as
> Dick Armey and [Bob] Barr, who are very worried about a police state."
> Boyle says that an article against Ashcroft would make clear "that we
> don't want a police state in the name of an oil empire."
> It's Up to Us
> Unfortunately for the impeachment campaign, Armey has retired and
> Barr, who spoke out against some of the most draconian proposals for
> what eventually became the USA PATRIOT Act, was defeated in the
> Republican primary. Boyle is still waiting for the one member of
> Congress willing to introduce articles of impeachment when the 108th
> Congress convenes on January 7.
> Since Bush has indicated that he is not likely to go to war before the
> end of January or early February, Boyle thinks we have a month to stop
> the war by impeaching the chain of command: Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld,
> along with police state enforcer Ashcroft. Time and the Internet are
> advantages Rep. Gonzalez did not have in 1991, when the Persian Gulf
> War was launched the day after he introduced his articles.
> Boyle is asking the public to push for impeachment in two ways. First,
> contact your own member of Congress to urge him or her to introduce
> articles of impeachment, and tell the member that he or she may
> contact Prof. Boyle for assistance in drafting the articles. Second,
> demand impeachment by engaging in non-violent direct action, in
> exercise of your First Amendment rights to free speech, peaceable
> assembly and petition for redress of grievances. Boyle was pleased
> that 100,000 people marched around the White House last October 26 to
> protest the impending war on Iraq. But he says one million people need
> to peaceably take to the streets with signs, banners and voices
> shouting, "Impeach Bush!"
> "The bottom line: it's really up to you and to me to enforce the law
> and the Constitution against our own government," he says. "We are
> citizens of the United States of America. We have to act to preserve
> the republic that we have, to preserve our Constitution, to preserve a
> rule of law. This is our responsibility as citizens. We simply can't
> pass the buck and say 'Oh, some judge is going to do it somewhere.'
> It's up to us to keep this republic."
> Copyright © 2003 Kéllia Ramares. For fair use only.
by deop
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 9:48 PM
Thank goodness for the people of San Francisco. For those of us in other parts of the nation, especially those of us who once lived there, you remain a beacon of outspoken truth. Keep it up.
by 56k
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 10:44 PM
Now you're talking.
by Scott
Sunday Jan 19th, 2003 11:37 PM
<i>How very wonderful it is to see people expressing their feelings in a very patriotic manner about bad government policy. </i><p>
Take another bong hit<p>
<img src="">
by kaci
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 12:00 AM
The antiwar rallies are primarily being organized by the International ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism) Coalition. Past rallies by ANSWER have included significant anti-Israel propaganda, including claims that Israel is guilty of "war crimes" against Palestinians and that Israel is a "racist state." The group was responsible for last year's largest anti-Israel rally, the "National March for Palestine Against War and Racism" in Washington on April 20, 2002, which served as a forum for supporting violence and terror organizations, and a proliferation of anti-Semitic expression.
by lester poehner phd
(poehnerphd [at] Monday Jan 20th, 2003 12:23 AM
The figure of about 88K sounds right to me. We have lots of civic events in this plaza, some up to 1,000,000 and it sure was not that, but it was far over 50K. I was there, and have been at every one of the rallies in SF since 9/11. What is important is not just the raw numbers, and the pix look about right, no photoshop, no need, but that each of these events gets about twice as many people as were there before. And where the first ones were strictly "round up the usual suspects" events - you can get 1,000 people here to show up to a protest to protest protests - the range of people showing up for the last two has been very diverse. Its a promising start. LP
by Barbara
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 12:52 AM
Is it true that the SF Chronicle provided no advance notification or logistical information to its readers yesterday's deomonstration?

To offer another measure of the size of the crowd: I was at the Embarcadero and in the line of march for almost four hours before reaching the Civic Center, and people continued arriving for about half an hour after that.

Wonderful street theatre took place, both on the stage at the Embarcadero and all along the line of march by self-appointed performers, most of them young, as the majority in attendance appeared to be. My far and away favourite stage performance was by Dance Mission women in black stretch pants and sports tops, barefoot, bright shawls tied about their hips, long fringes flying as they swung their arms athletically and gracefully, playing large drums

My favourite street performance was three men in suits and Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Kissinger masks together with a very effectively impersonated young Saddam Hussein, saying "I love these guys, I love'em; I couldn't have done it without 'em!"

There was elsewhere a line-up of four or five Bush impersonators in a row, glad-handing with various funny routines, and with comic comments dangling as mobiles around their heads, suggesting that Bush should be a one-term [p]resident.

I couldn't go near the Civic Center stage as the amplification was too painfully loud.

Some signs I noticed:

Gung Ho for Peace!

United We Sit on Our Asses and Watch TV!

Got Oil? Got Apathy? Got Terror?

Who Would Jesus Attack?

If the Twin Towers were in Baghdad, would they be on the target list?

Bush -- an Empty Warhead

In a free society, some are guilty, but all are responsible. <Rabbi Herschel>

Jews say, "Oy vey! Enough war already!"

Jews and Arabs Alliance for Peace (with website)

You can bomb the world to pieces but you can't bomb to Peace.

US-imposed Sanctions are the Weapon of Mass Destruction of Children

STOP World War W

Stop Shopping! Start Thinking!

the shopping bag flag graphic that appeared everywhere after Sept 11, 2001, a bomb visible in it, the letters at the bottom saying, "Don't Buy It!"

A large flag carried reverently on wooden staff with eagle finial, pinned to it a sign: Don't Drag the Flag in Oil!

You Are Responsible for What Your Flag Stands For

Iraqi and American children need Peace

held by an elderly man in a carefully preserved uniform: 84 and opposed to war

Afghan Vet for Peace

Peace by Any Means Necessary

Ask survivors of Wounded Knee about domestic terrorism

Casualties of US Terrorism (double column of countries' names followed by figures of tens or hundreds of thousands, or millions), a website credited in the lower corner
Feel free to pass on this message widely.

January 18 2003. 200,000 at San Francisco rally. Overhead PHOTOS by helicopter!

Awesome overhead helicopter photos of January 18 2003 peace rally in San Francisco. or

Helicopter Pictures of SF Demo
by Peter Maiden • Sunday January 19, 2003 at 05:48 AM
pmaiden [at]

An excerpt from the top of the page:
"...It was shoulder to shoulder in the Civic Center and back nearly to the foot of Market Street."

One of the photos (in thumbnail form) is on the San Francisco Indymedia homepage:

Click the thumbnail photo to go to the compilation page of all 6 photos and comments.

The 6 photos are also posted here:

There are many more rally articles, photos, video, comments, etc. at San Francisco Bay Area Indymedia:
by Flarg
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 1:55 AM
<i>Past rallies by ANSWER have included significant anti-Israel propaganda</i>

ANSWER is not the rally. The rally was only organized by ANSWER. Just because past rallies have included propaganda does not mean that the rally itself is anti-Israel.

I was at the rally with 4 of my close Jewish friends. My Jewish neighbors were there. While I saw some anti-Isralli posters (and they were rare), I never witnessed any anti-semitism.

I really have no idea who ANSWER is, and I wasn't at the rally to support ANSWER. I was at the rally to push for peace in the latest phase of this oil war.
by Pinky
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 2:04 AM
I didn't know their was so many gay and lesbians in the bay area. I need these kind of people in my life. As soon as I can save enough for a bus fare I'l join these loving and concerned people.
by Brian
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 2:35 AM
My wife and I got to the march at about 11am. We got off at Montgomery BART, as Embarcadero was backed up down to the trains. The march actually started moving around 11:20am; we got to the Civic Center at a little after 1pm. We listened to the many great speakers until about 2:30, then started walking back up Market towards Embarcadero Center. At this point people were still marching into the Civic Center, and the tail of the march passed SF Center around 3:15. It was truly awesome.

Regarding the helicopter, I have sent hundreds of dollars to ANSWER over the last year (I wonder how much support, monetary or otherwise, the astroturfers and critics have given), and I am thrilled that they used it to get their own helicopter and get some decent pictures from above.

This was a fantastic march; I hope the bush-cheney-rumsfeld axis of evil takes heed.
by another 56k'er
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 4:18 AM
I have a 56K modem. another friend has a 28.8K. what do we do? we WAIT. the pix are well worth it. thumbnails would be nice tho.

a) the march was huge. the corporate media are way underestimating the size of the crowd.

b) given that the corporate press says there were 500K people in DC yesterday...I wonder how many there really were?

c) the SFPD estimated the crowd at about 55K. how did the chron and others get 44,000 people as a number for our march?
by Commie Hater
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 4:50 AM
The truth about answer

Those that support ANSWER are FOOLS.

by Clueless as the rest
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 5:09 AM
ANSWER is a group of dedicated people working with very little money or resources, little media coverage and no corporate grants. Unlike some of the other major anti-war groups.
by Seth Lorson
(sethlor [at] Monday Jan 20th, 2003 5:09 AM
Some fellow peace activists and i drove to the bay for the weekend to pay our respects and outrage. Amazed when we exitted the BART, (and even had to go to the Montgomery exit, because the first was too full) the first glimpse of sunshine and there were protesters as far as the eye could see. About 5 minutes later the procession reached us. At one point i counted across one line and counted 25. This procession passed us for about 2 hours, and when there was still no end in sight we joined. There must have been at least 200,000 peaceniks from a diversity of experience coming together for a common cause. It was beautiful. Keep organizing and be the change you want to see!
peace and love,
by George Orwell
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 5:49 AM
From the streets here at home where pigs occupy our communities
And probably pay your wages, too. What's the local McDonald's pay these days anyway? Or do you take your wages in barter? That's it! You take your pay in roaches huh?
If you really want change, drop the picket sign and pick up a ...
Woo Hoooooo sounds like a Second Amendment fan to me. I love the smell of capped Socialist in the morning.
our capatalist corporations have exploited every race in this country and every cheap third world country around the globe,
Because everybody knows how very much better off these poor third worlders would be had we not INVESTED in their backwater outhouses. I've yet to see/read/hear the workers piss and moan about the wages they earn. Could it be because without the big corporations they would be starving? Nahhhh just my imagination.
I smell a Revolution in the air.
Get over yourself. Mildly interesting but hardly revolutionary. The pictures show nothing more than what people already knew about California - land of fruits and nuts. Soviet Berkeley and its satellite communties is nothing new nor newsworthy.
as far as I am concerned Bush governs according to corporate rules.
And the problem with this is............ exactly what? Corporate rules sure have helped artificially pump up your property values. Corporate rules allow for you to open your gaping pieholes to regurgitate communist propoganda. In case you didn't notice, socialism failed. Soviet Union - dead. 21st century calling 19th century IndyMedia - come join us.
Re: impeachment (for educational purposes) - I received this via email the other Alex Newman
Helloooooo - can you say material breach on the cease fire signed by Saddam? Can you say thrown out of court as a frivolous lawsuit? Except in your 9th circuit court part of the country that is. Never fear the Supreme Court would overturn it as it has almost half of all 9th circuit decisions already.
All just and moral people are anti-Israel,
Take another hit of acid nessie - you lost touch with this world a long time ago. The answer to A.N.S.W.E.R. Never - NEVER - have I seen this many stupid, self-indulgent, narcissitic people in one place in my life. We aren't evolving - we're DEvolving and this is the proof.
by mary
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 6:01 AM
Crowd estimates are notoriously bad. Pictures help capture the spirit and spread the messasge. Wish I were there!
by War Is Not the Answer But Neither Is ANSWER
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 6:08 AM
answer is not the question but neither is question.
by Jesse Luscious
(jayteeten [at] Monday Jan 20th, 2003 6:34 AM
1- I was at the march in Frisco on Saturday. There was a TON of people. At the time, I assumed at least 100,000. We stood in one place from Noon-1:30 at New Montgomery/Market. Then, we started walking to warm up a bit.

2- But other posters are right. None of us on the ground could estimate by ourselves the extent of the crowd, but if you combined everyone's experiences, you could probably come up with a decent estimate. According to this site, people were still leaving the starting point (Embarcadero) at 2 pm (30 minutes after we started walking), so they probably got to New Montgomery at 2:20-2:30. How many people was that? Hell if I know exactly, but definitely a lot more than 55K (the SFPD estimate according to the SF Chronicle - )!

I'd add that Market Street held at least 20 abreast, plus another 5-10 on both sidewalks moving in the same direction, at a minimum. Don't know the math, but hopefully that helps.

3. The roar of the crowd, rising from Embarcadero, through our spot, and up into the distant Civic Center, was chilling because there were SO MANY PEOPLE. I've been to a lot of events, usually sports, with thousands of people, and this was larger than all of them. The largest one was Live Aid in Philly in 1985, what was that, 40,000?
by Suzie
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 6:51 AM
Imagine, for a moment, that the Republic of Ireland suddenly began occupying Wales. They moved in a bunch of troops, started building houses and displaced hundreds of people. Now imagine that you and I are having a light lunch together. “Gosh, that Wales occupation thing is awful,” I say. “I think that it’s wrong that Ireland did that.”
Now, close your eyes and imagine what would happen next.

Probably you didn’t imagine yourself leaping to your feet and exclaiming, “You’re anti-Catholic! ANTI-CATHOLIC! I knew it! You’re prejudiced!” Of course you wouldn’t, although Ireland is a Catholic country and Wales isn’t. Of course not, because Ireland is just that: a country, with government and policy and military and a seat in the UN. And any country, from Canada to Chile to Cambodia, is open to criticism here in the good old, free-speakin USA.

So why on earth is it impossible to criticize Israel without invoking the “You are anti-Jewish” response? Israel is a country. Yes, a country. A place of historical and religious significance, true; a special place, true; a spiritual place, true. And a country. With a government and policies and military and a seat in the UN. And as we just covered, countries are open to criticism, even when they are our best friends, here in the USA (hmm, the USA: supposedly devoted to the separation of church and state...)

So let’s go ahead and speak our minds. The Israeli occupation and invasion of Palestine is WRONG. It is illegal, unjust and violent. Israel is in defiance of international law. Israel, like the US, has a foreign policy based upon aggression and fear and like the US, their society is becoming a militarized one. The obscene, ridiculous, embarrassing amount of aide from the US to Israel is WRONG: 3 - 5 Billion a year, and my high school is still using history textbooks from the 1970s.

It’s simply unfair to bully and silence people from valid critisms of one country’s foreign policy by calling them racist. As we observe Martin Luther King, Jr. day, let us think about what racism really is. Racism is here all around us, in the terrible schools of our innercities, in the huge economic gap in this country between the rich and the poor and in the disproportionate number of minorities in prison and on death row. Racism is in the policies of Israel towards Palestinians and in the policies of the US towards just about everyone. Racism is in stereotypes, like Native American mascots or ethnic slurs - or like believing that one voice represents everyone in a race or religion - like thinking that Israel represents all Jewish people, or that all Jewish people represent Israel.
by one of the editors
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 6:54 AM
That's you. Other people don't want to wait. Yet others don't mind waiting, but resent being forced to wait.

Oversize pictures also screw up the wrap. Don't screw up the wrap, it's rude.
by another editor
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 7:00 AM
Its kinda our fault for not having thumbnails and we shouldn't scare off someone giving good evidence of crowd count
by owner of a small screen
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 7:11 AM
people who want to read the comments without having to scroll back and forth horizontally, which makes reading the comments virtually impossible, especially on a small screen.

There is no need for pics that big. Either shrink them or post an URL to where they can be found like nessie did.
by ep
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 11:12 AM
More pictures of the January 18th March in San Francisco, at my site. Taken from about 1pm to 3pm along the walk from Steuart Street to Civic Center.
by ep
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 11:13 AM
More pictures of the January 18th protest in San Francisco, at my site. Taken from about 1pm to 3pm along the walk from Steuart Street to Civic Center.
Parade route map for the January 18 2003 San Francisco peace rally of 200,000 people. It has been rotated and cropped it so it fits even in the 480 by 640 resolutions of small monitors.

The original uncropped route map was found at San Francisco Indymedia here:

I am posting here a slightly narrower version than the one linked above at

Below is a copy of David Chandler's original message. I suggest deleting his original comment and original image since the image isn't rotated or cropped, and so this causes the text of many comments to overextend past the edge of the screen to the right. Even on my 17 inch monitor set at 1024X768.

-----David Chandler's comment begins----

An independent count
by David Chandler • Monday January 20, 2003 at 06:52 AM

I teach physics and math, so I took as my project for the SF demonstration to do my own crowd estimate to see whether the organizers or the media were giving a better version of the numbers.

We arrived early and started our march from Embarcadaro. By 11:00, the nominal starting time, the street was packed to the point where you couldn't easily move around in the crowd without people squeezing out of the way to let you by. Some people who had walked ahead and scouted out the parade route said they had gone 15 blocks and still couldn't see the front of the crowd. They estimated that the entire parade route was essentially filled from the start. It was an hour and a half before we started to move.

My estimate of the stationary crowd density was 500 people for 10 feet along the parade route. That's 1000 people per 20 feet or upward of 10,000 people in the first city block. To make that more conservative, allowing for lack of uniformity, I would allow a factor of 2 margin of error. That makes my initial estimate 5 thousand people in that first block. The blocks don't appear to be the same length, the first one being about 100 m long, but it is easy to see that a 20 block stretch would put the numbers in the 100,000 range.

When I got home I downloaded aerial photographs of Market Street from . Based on the images Market Street is about 34 m across and the parade route was 2.7 km long. This put the total area of the parade route, not counting the square at Civic Center, at 92,000 square meters. For comparison, the first block was about 100 m long, so its area was 3400 sq.m. If we use the 5000 people per block estimate of the crowd density, that makes it about 1.5 people per square meter. If you place a bunch of people 1 m apart you will see this is fairly loose packing, so 1.5 per sq.m is not very far off. Once we got walking the spacing increased somewhat, but not by much. The moving crowd was almost stationary much of the time. It took us about 3 hours to amble a mile and a half.

Using that density for the parade route, not counting the square at the civic center, the count would be 138,000, which I would round down to 100,000, again just to be conservative. The kicker is that when we arrived at the civic center there was an announcement that the end of the parade was back where we had started! In other words we filled the parade route twice. 200,000 people is not at all out of line.

With numbers like these, news reports of "10's of thousands" (CBS, SF Chronicle, etc.) come across as pretty blatant counter-movement propaganda, especially considering that the news agencies had helicopters. Reports that ranged from 100,000-250,000 (which I understand included some of the major media outlets) seem to be honest efforts, but I would go with numbers in the 200,000 range myself.

The numbers were only one piece of the picture. The major contribution of the rally was bringing the West Coast branch of the peace movement together in a very positive, upbeat atmosphere. It was very uplifting. On the other hand, we apparently live in a time when many of those who would like to rule in our name don't count bodies any better than they count votes.

----end of David Chandler's comment----

by Christopher
(infinityedge [at] Monday Jan 20th, 2003 2:34 PM
Printing large posters of the overhead shot of Market street would be a wonderful fund raising for indymedia/sf.indymedia/answer whomever.

Underneath the picture put a slogan, something like,

"I'm not alone. I can make a difference."

I personally know many, many people who would buy one.
by Martha E. Ture
(marthature [at] Monday Jan 20th, 2003 3:58 PM
Thank you, David Chandler. I wonder if it is possible to get helicopter photos and satellite shots, like these, from the DC march. I would post them to one of my news sites.
Martha E. Ture
Legislative Affairs Editor
Native News Online
by Michelle
(mishmosh [at] Monday Jan 20th, 2003 4:51 PM
Aren't there any photos of the opening rally from Justin Herman Plaza? I saw the helicopters flying around the Ferry building. There must be some good shots of the opening crowd.
by Peter Abramowitsch
(axonsys [at] Monday Jan 20th, 2003 4:53 PM
I agree with the 200,000+ count.

I stood on Market street and counted an average of 35 people spanning the street and moving past me at around 1.5 seconds per "row" on average. This continued for 2 hours 45 minutes. My count is therefore about 230000, and this does not include those that arrived at Civc Center directly.
by Ruth
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 4:58 PM
Thank you ANSWER, for hiring a helicopter. We have to put the facts out, not depend on the corporate media. I am writing a generous tax deductible check to Progress Unity Fund so you can keep up the good work.
by Lionel Heredia
(vblionel [at] Monday Jan 20th, 2003 4:59 PM
Do you have a shot showing the entire corridor from the capital building to the beginning of the march?
by Arpi Kupelian
(as_kupelian [at] Monday Jan 20th, 2003 5:31 PM
RE: "Heil" and "Money to Burn"

Both of you need a basic education, to begin with; then you need to watch a little "news" to understand the helicopter and the work of Internation A.N.S.W.E.R. Last time I checked, none of the major networks -INCLUDING radio (NPR, namely) covered these rallies accurately.

You think the helicopter is showing off? You think I.A. sucks? Then go live in Texas or Florida where one can eventually be executed for a couple grams of coke.

Plus, if all of us did more -EVERY DAY- to fight militarism and corporate welfare (both the Dems and Reps are responsible for) then massive rallies like this one may not be necessary. But I am damn glad it happened, and I will keep missing work to attend these functions; keep arguing till I'm blue in the face with those that think the U.S. will be "liberating" Iraq (from our weapons, of course); keep donating money for organizations that lead the U.S. away from this ridiculous charade of Freedom and Democracy.

Yours Most Truly,

Arpi S. Kupelian
by LG
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 5:39 PM
I'M looking at these pictures and listening to CNN with Bush talking at an all black church. HE IS TELLING THEM ABOUT AFFIRMITIVE ACTION AND HOW MUCH NEEDS TO BE DONE and these christians are believing the LIE this man is given them.
When I was in SF, I didn't see that many black people and I wondered why?

by lolly vee
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 6:03 PM
You guys at Answer are doing a FANTASTIC JOB!! The media has tried to portray us as weak and ineffectual. They have consistently undercounted the numbers of people at demonstrations. Your photos prove that there were hundreds of thousands at the march!! Sadly, I wasn't one of them. As a Los Angeles resident, I was determined to attend this great demonstration just as I'd attended the last ones in L.A. and in San Francisco. Unfortunately, I got sick and couldn't go. So, I intend to donate the $100 to Answer that I would have spent on driving eight hundred miles round trip.....THANKS FOR ALL OF YOUR HARD WORK!!! Lolly V.
by Rebeca K
(rkeck [at] Monday Jan 20th, 2003 6:34 PM
Thanks for your awesome effort to get valid and accurate counts of the SF protest crowd. This has been validating to my friends and myself who were there, knowing that our perception of 100,000+ is accurate. This also provides a record of proof that cannot be refuted. Nice work!!!
by James Quesada
(jquesada [at] Monday Jan 20th, 2003 6:38 PM
Why Numbers Count

by Lee
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 6:45 PM
A guy on 645 AM radio in Sacto at about 11:15 said that the demo was nothing but a riot...that people destroyed banks and ATM machines as we son, who attended the march with me and my grandson called minutes ago to tell me about this program...I'm glad my sons went with me and can now tell the people at his work and in his community the truth...thanks for all your wonderful work and communication....
by Fred Greissing
(singfred [at] Monday Jan 20th, 2003 6:57 PM
Blessed are the peacemakers of Janruary 18th.

Martin Luther King is dancing on a cloud!!!!

by common man
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 7:32 PM
What's terrible about opposing war, racism, and
oppression in general? Can you answer without
red-baiting? Read about MLK's last three years
and you will find that he came to have similar
politics. Albert Einstein, Helen Keller,
Bertrand Russell, and many other bright
productive human beings were Socialists.

Let's work together; all this sniping and broad-brushed innuendo is exactly what the right wing and the
corporate behemoth want to see. Stop acting against
your own interests and those of the person next to
by Sal Del Mundo
(saldelmundoentertainment [at] Monday Jan 20th, 2003 7:39 PM
that's me! Right next to the Peace Circle. With the blue jacket and 3 hole face mask. Thats me! Thats me! Soy famoso! Soy infamoso!

by Jesse
(jayteeten [at] Monday Jan 20th, 2003 7:49 PM
Dubya's administration loves to see the left and other anti-Dubya people argue about ANSWER's politics

When I went to the protest Sunday, I went protesting Dubya's planned war, NOT supporting whomever printed up flyers and organized much of the march. When there's no crisis of this magnitude going on, the Left can discuss what's good and bad about ANSWER, INDYMEDIA, whomever, but the way to change our country for the better is to unite against the real enemy. I'll be one to bicker away later, but right now I think that kind of crap is selfish navel-gazing.

Thank you, palika, for your uncommonly sage words.
I remember being at a conference on the media where
Robert Sheer berated the audience for being there
(as if he weren't) rather than doing a number of other things, when the people who sponsored the meeting
were in fact involved in doing all those other things at
exactly the same time. All this "instead" nonsense
is divisive and, I suspect, often intentionally so.
People should put their time, energy, and resources
where they think it will do the most good, and not
berate others who make different decisions.
That's the way of community, diversity, and democracy,
rather than self-centered Procrustean megalomania.
by common man
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 8:02 PM
> Bush is our elected leader

He isn't, actually.

> he governs constitutionally

He doesn't, actually.

> and unless you are talking about overthrowing representative democracy and replacing it with something else then he governs according to YOUR rules.

Just what does this have to do with posting photos,
"photoshop", skepticism, estimating crowd size, or showing up for a peaceful demonstration? I suggest that you first need to be skeptical about your own reasoning, or lack of it.

No photo is, by itself, proof of anything. In fact, nothing
you see or hear is proof of anything. The world is not
so convenient as to provide proofs to people too lazy to
employ reasoning, analysis, and judgment. Every
conclusion you reach is a gamble, a risk -- you always
might be wrong. "skepticism" that fails to embrace
rational conclusions because they aren't proven
is intellectual nihilism and cowardice.
by Susie Q.
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 8:12 PM
Thank you for providing us with the true numbers for Saturday's march. I was there, and I know there were many times the numbers that were reported. It was an exhilirating experience, and gratifying to see large numbers of young people, as well as all age ranges, raising their voices in defiance of the U.S. government's criminal and immoral military actions. My family's next step is to explore the possibility of retrofitting a diesel operated automobile to enable it to run on vegetable oil. No blood for oil!
by common man
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 8:23 PM
Whoa! skepticism is anything but "fascist dogma".
Opposing fascism requires great skepticism about
the corporate-controlled message all around us,
a message that, among other things, understates
the size of crowds and popular movements and their
support and importance. It also requires skepticism
about identifications of terrorism and evil, of who was
and wasn't elected, of whether the U.S. is a democracy,
etc. etc. Skepticism is an essential tool of critical
thinking. Skepticism can help you avoid unnecessary
surgery just because a surgeon insists it's the best or
only way; it can also help you avoid giving your
money to corporations by buying the latest fad at the so-called "health" food store, or a stroke
from chiropractic "subluxation" quackery. But a suggestion that these photos were faked isn't skepticism, it's an abdication of reason.
by common man
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 8:37 PM
> Past rallies by ANSWER have included significant anti-Israel propaganda, including claims that Israel is guilty of "war crimes" against Palestinians

That's the truth. Your calling it "propaganda" without
offering any argument to the contrary is itself propaganda.

> and that Israel is a "racist state."

That's the truth. Your calling it "propaganda" without
offering any argument to the contrary is itself propaganda.

> The group was responsible for last year's largest anti-Israel rally, the "National March for Palestine Against War and Racism" in Washington on April 20, 2002, which served as a forum for supporting violence and terror organizations, and a proliferation of anti-Semitic expression.

Palestinians are semites, you xenophobic jackass.
I'm a Jew and I oppose the racist and oppressive
policies of Israel. Racist Jews like you who can't even imagine Israel being in the wrong, who refer to all
Palestinians and supporters of Palestinian rights as
terrorists, who conflate opposition to Iraeli policy with
"anti-semitism", make me sick.
by common man
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 8:49 PM
> Those that support ANSWER are FOOLS.

No, those who mindlessly are swayed by red-baiting
are fools. Those who read their history know where
the 40 hour work week and child labor laws came from,
and it wasn't from the likes of "Commie Hater"
and other red-baiters.
by common man
Monday Jan 20th, 2003 8:55 PM
... was a socialist, you git.

"Never - NEVER - have I seen this many stupid, self-indulgent, narcissitic people in one place in my life"

You forget that time you visited the hall of mirrors.
by Patrick McBride
(ppmcbride [at] Monday Jan 20th, 2003 9:04 PM
Thank you Jim Sevrdia for taking the time to make a real count. This could have been refined by getting a few people to help you at the spot. This can be further refined after the marchers reach the civic center by polling to see the density of the marchers in the civic center. I will be up there for the next rally and I would like to work with you to make a count of that rally.
by William M. (Bill) Mandel
(wmmmandel [at] Monday Jan 20th, 2003 10:54 PM
YOu write that your photograph showed the crowd from Civic Center extending almost to the foot of Market St. That means you took the shot late in the day as the parade was approaching its end.
By my observation, it took four hours for the parade to pass a given point. Except at the start, when it had not yet filled the 1.7 miles of Market St. to Civic Center, and at the end, when the same was true in reverse, that distance was jammed constantly, yet constantly in motion, as all traffic had been rerouted. Most of the time it filled that very wide street (four parallel streetcar lines in earlier years, plus two automotive lanes then, plus very wide sidewalks then and now) from building front to building front, not sidewalk to sidewalk). Certainly for the first hour the ranks were as close as possible without treading on the heels of the person in front or being stepped on by the one behind. Someone can probably compute an accurate figure from this. When a speaker said 350,000, I didn't think that was impossible. Later speakers used 200,000. I have seen stupendous demonstrations: May Day in Moscow in 1932 when people came freely; the second anniversary of the Cuban Revolution in 1960, when the estimate was a million and no one challenged it; nationwide gatherings in Bologna and in Paris; demonstrations of 100,000 in NYC in the 1930s; a quarter-million against the Soviet regime in Moscow in 1990. Until someone comes up with a mathematical computation based on the rate of motion of the crowd and the number required to fill that 1.7 mile at a given moment, I'll remain convinced that it was somewhere between 200,000 and a third of a million.
by William M. (Bill) Mandel
(wmmmandel [at] Monday Jan 20th, 2003 11:28 PM
My wife spoke Yiddish before she spoke English. At her memorial a year ago, I confined myself to reading her last published letter to the editor. It opened: "I am an 84-year-old Jewish woman sitting here crying because I am physically unable to join the Women In Black protesting Israeli treatment of the Palestinians."
I am 85. In 1956, when Israel joined England and France in an invasion of the Suez Canal to take it back from the Egyptians, I was teaching a Current Events class at the N.Y. Guild for the Jewish Blind. I told them that, unless we Jews were racists, we had to understand that the Arabs, who outnumbered the Israelis manyfold, would some day have education, skills, and arms with which they could destroy Israel. Asked: "what should they so?", I replied: "Withdraw." To my amazement, that is exactly what Pres. Eisenhower and Soviet leader Khrushchev ordered all three invaders to do, and they did so.
I happen to have known Ella Winter, widow of the most famous of American journalists, Lincoln Steffens. In 1918 (I knew her in the 1940s), she was secretary to Felix Frankfurter in the Zionist Commission in London to set up the Jewish state. One day Chaim Weizmann, who became the first head of that state, came in. Frankfurter introduced her, and she listened to them talk. In her autobiography, AND NOT TO YIELD, she excerpts from that conversation: "'The Arabs will be our problem for a long time,' Weizmann said, 'it's not going to be simple. One day they may have to leave and let us have the country'." (p.49) That's Zionism.
by Timothy Gianakos
(TimothyGianakosLive [at] Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 12:22 AM
I think it is great that ANSWER decided to create their own media, since the corporate media is trying to down play the protests, even now when they can no longer avoid reporting what is growing beyond anyone's expectation.

We have to have pictures like these to report what is historically unprecidented and must be documented with pictures for the future.

by Suzy
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 12:26 AM
Regardless of what you think about ANSWER's politics or tactics, the helicopter photos were necessary in this case. The Boston Globe's cover story on the protests numbered the participants at 1000, two orders of magnitude below what those helicopter photos prove. Without them, it would only be our word against theirs.

by Paul Sinn
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 12:36 AM
the 'media' is reporting the demonstrations in the meekest light. get more photos out!
Free Palestine Now.
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 12:51 AM
The story from the Boston Globe and most other mainstream papers is simply the AP wire story. Whatever happened to reporters covering events for each newspaper/magazine?

Welcome to the downsized-new-world-order of media!

The AP story speaks of a huge protest on Saturday, but gives no numbers. They focus on 16 arrests on Sunday. They are not interested in our story, except to ignore it. They are not interested in truth or about opening debates. This is why the obvious questions around 9/11 and other issues are not being asked by the mainstream media.

We must not let them frustrate us. The bigger this thing gets, the more apparent their scam will become to the general public and the faster things will move along.

In many ways, it is better for them to ignore us!

Still the photos are important and I am glad ANSWER went to the trouble to get them. Too bad there weren't any for Washington, DC. Something to think about in the future.
by Stuart M. Chandler
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 12:52 AM
THese photos are so encouraging. I could not get out due to the fact that I take care of my mother
who had Alzheimers Dimentia. IT almost better than being there. THe utterly corrupt majors
would never show these. They are nothing more than sops to the m\illitary-industrial-congressional
complex. I can continue with more strength due to these photos.
by Carol McLaine
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 1:09 AM
It is a joy to have photographs of the anti-war movement, so that the media can no longer underestimate the number of people who don't want the blood of more Iraqi people on our hands.
by Pete
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 1:46 AM
I only trust the news from Canada and the UK. The American Press is Lazy and out of touch with reality.

Then again who in the American Press/ NY Times, CBS ,NBC, ABC, CNN has a kid in the Military. Think hard, Dan, TOM and Peter are Multi Millionairs. Their Kids and Grand Kids will never be in a fox hole fighting for Big Oil! Only the little people go into the Military. Not the Sons and Grand Sons of Meat Puppets.

by McLean
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 2:32 AM
The photos of the marchers show how many Americans have no idea what dictatorships are like and how they operate. The Marchers should show some support instead of wasting their effort on their poor judgement. The push has not reached shove, yet...
by Basheer Khan
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 2:48 AM
I know that major broadcasting corporations like NBC, CBS, ABC etc are either wholly or partially owned by American Jewish community and employ several of their fellow Jews in key positions. Besides this, there are a number of Jews working at key positions in Hollywood and American Government. With all this control, it is no wonder American foreign policies are hugely favorable to Israel. Truly speaking, American policies should be designed in such a way as to make America a secure country which has good relations with all the countries and which fight against opression and help UN remove poverty from the world.

Instead, America is literally used as a means towards some other nations political goals. Why the tax dollars of America be spent in such causes?

It would be interesting to know how many American Jews are there in American military. I know there are bunch of Muslims and Christians working in the US armed forces both at the command and the soldier level.

by Algorythm
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 2:52 AM
Paul Maiden, your pictures are fantastic! Thank you and Answer so much! Can you tell us please, if all the pictures were shot within a short time frame? In order to best estimate the size of the crowd I need to know if the market street shots were done at the same time as the civic center shots. Minutes? Hours? what?

Peace and No WorldWarW!

Hermanos de USA,
Estoy muy contenta que gente de USA, gente como tu y como yo denunciemos y protestemos por maniobras terrorificas de USA. Ya basta, estoy muy feliz porque quiere decir que hay mucha gente despierta y que grita NOT IN OUR NAME. Creo que la informacion como esta no la encontre en medios de comunicacion de USA, solo en paises como Mexico, Canada e Inglaterra. Solo veo en las noticias soldados que se van a la guerra y los ven como heroes. Sigamos en la lucha para terminar de una vez por todas el terror y la injusticia que este país reparte en cada lugar del planeta. Porque creo que hay gente BUENA Y DESPIERTA.
by Rene
(rdvalery [at] Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 4:06 AM

Today were the peace rallies all across the country. I think they were amazing... it was incredible to see the number of people in San Francisco alone; I can just imagine how things went in other larger cities. But I have to say... a bit of sadness overcame me when I realized that my tomorrow, a large number of the people that attended will go back to their regular daily routine and forget the impact that they caused today and more importantly, the impact that they could KEEP ON CAUSING in their life.

I don't really believe that WAR is the answer for anything, but I think that up to a point WE, OURSELVES have brought this situation up on ourselves. How? Well... for starters, we know how our daily behavior affects our planet, the people in it, and ourselves, and yet... we do nothing about it...

-We know that we pollute the environment, and yet, continue driving thoughtlessly
-We know that our garbage is destroying the earth, but don't really care about it
-We know that smoking promotes various types of cancer, but don't stop smoking
-We know what the 'bad foods' are and yet, continue eating them
-We know that we can make an impact in the world, but are too lazy and complacent to get off our couches

I believe that we have forgotten our responsibility to the world, and have deposited our lives in the hands of politicians--allowing them to make our decisions and, so that OUR comfort is not disturbed, do not bother to constantly question what they do in our name. Furthermore, we have forgotten that EVERYTHING that we do has an impact on the entire universe... not only in our own little/private world.

Everyone... I am writing this e-letter not an activist, but as someone who today more than ever, realized how much responsibility I HAVE for what's happening in the world, and how little I have assumed this responsibility. Today I realized how putting out a business proposal at my job or going to they gym has been more important than taking a few minutes of my time to write to my representative in congress and to the White House itself. Today I realized how beautiful and fragile the world is, and how quick it can be gone. You know... I like, nay, I LOVE where I live. I love the blue skies and the freshness of the air; I love my family and my friends; and I love me. I would have to have all these things taken away from me, especially when I didn't do anything to prevent it.

As I said before, I don't believe that war is the answer for anything--but we have to realize that it might be happening and soon... and that we have a lot to do with it. Think about how you can make a difference not only to avert this event (write, don't email Congress and the White House and if you are abroad, write to your leaders as well), but in the world in general... starting with yourself.

I wish the best of the world to all all all of you!!!!!!! and my apologies if with my words I have offended anyone--that is not my intention in the least.


To contact your Congress Representative, you can go to:
by Jo'Ann De Quattro
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 4:12 AM
TY for the photos from the air. I was there. I knew it was far bigger than media reports! Peace!
by Hali
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 6:19 AM
Reply to Basheer Khan: Maybe Israel also needs its independence from USA warmongers and ideologues ;) I can't help but think that if the entire country behaved towards its neighbors they way the kibbutzniks at Kibbutz Metzer do, or the refuseniks or the peaceniks like Uri Avnery and Rabbis for Human Rights, then their neighbors would welcome them in return.... and then they would have no use for U.S. weapons, money, or hegemony. And without a dangerous Israel to focus attention on, how many dictators could stay in power in the Middle East?

There's a pretty active peace group in the SF area - A Jewish Voice for Peace - did you see them at the rally?
by luya
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 6:54 AM
We should all be proud to see so many people from the west coast representing for peace...I was at the DC march and it was twice the size of SF's. So now is the time to get even more people out for February's rally!
by Sonia Baur
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 7:07 AM
It's the most people I have ever seen at an SF march (including the last anti-Vietnam marches). Thanks for the photos.
by Eva Quintana
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 2:53 PM
Californians are so politically smart!
by Phil Rockey
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 3:18 PM
You are 100% correct! Now let's go out and do more than we have been doing... I have run the bay to breakers (80,000 or more) and this event was way larger! One person can make a difference--one person at a time...
by Agnes Dickson
(soulwork [at] Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 3:43 PM

Thanks for this encouraging picture
by Brian O'Connor
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 3:52 PM
Heard over KFOG this AM: the SFPD has raised their estimate of the crowd on Saturday up to 150,000 or more.

I can't beleive Nessie still posts...
by lindy hop
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 4:10 PM
Kudos to the organizers for pulling off an incredible event!

Kudos to all who participated, just for showing up, and for everything else people brought: beautiful diversity, humor, cleverness, incisive analysis, irony, theatre, graphics, costumes, banners, handouts, stickers, songs, chants, goodwill, solidarity, and courage.

Let's just notice (and repeat to others as we continue to talk about our experience): this time, vs demos in Gulf War I (and the anti-Vietnam war movement to which we are now so often compared, usually unfavorably and IMHO quite unfairly):
* they're on the same size scale (I have been to all of the big ones, and many others, since about 1988)
* the war has (officially) not STARTED yet!
* this time, *we* had the helicopter and have the
very important for the usual 'numbers wars' waged
against us. We *know* it was more than 'tens of
thousands' and we can prove it
* media coverage was better this time (didja see the
Chronicle the day after?)
Contrary to our detractors on national TV, who say we "could all use a shower" and "need to unify our message/are all over the place," I saw a huge, diverse crowd from all over *unified in our diversity*. That's the truth, and that's our power. 'They' (those in power whose policies we oppose) will never tell us (even if this is the truth), "Gee, that was a huge, peaceful demo! You really represent a lot of people, not just the long-term activists and youth we're so fond of belittling and harassing. We can't believe you can get so many people out already. Not to mention all the other actions in the rest of the world. You're making us reassess the political cost of our war plans! Our propaganda is clearly not working as well as we'd hoped. Please, stop now!"

See you out there in February and before, and meanwhile, keep on spreading the message!

peace among us
love from the deepest part of our souls
solidarity forever
by A war hater
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 4:15 PM
As a city dweller for most of my life who has enjoyed a few inspiring months living among the mountain canyons and hiking through the wonderful forests of the lake tahoe,ca. area these pix represent for me an equally inspiring experience! As I walked with so many kindred spirits thru the canyons of the financial district in SF 1/18/03 I was struck by the natural beauty of such a strong and growing slice of humanity ....

Thank you so much to everyone involved and to those
who will, in the future, find their way to the anti-war movement.
by Carole Kessel Kenney
(captcarole [at] Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 4:18 PM
Interesting to see that the Left Coast media can skew the numbers as well as the more conservative Establishment East Coast. I was at the DC rally Saturday. Same skew: they reported "tens of thousands", and DC police claimed 30,000. AOL was equally off- they claimed 500,000. Truth is somewhere in the middle, with one estimate of similar crowds in the same area as 70,000. In that biting cold [25° at most], all I can say is that we were a brave lot, and that there would have been lots more if the temperature had been higher!
by Arpi S. Kupelian
(as_kupelian [at] Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 4:19 PM
This weekend, many issues came to light for me and my family; AND YES!!! THE HELICOPTER WAS TOTALLY NECESSARY (for all you dipshits that think it was an "extra" expense)!!

I found people around me who were compassionate and intelligent, knowing full well that this war is not about Freedom or Democracy, but about the
OIL-iligarcy that is driving so much of U.S. foreign policy in conjunction with Israel/Sharon.

If anyone still has any doubts about the connection between Israel and U.S. policy abroad, pick up the book, "Troubled Waters." The book talks about the relationship between Israel and the "stans" of the Caspian and its oil reserves, of which Afghanistan is a stepping stone.

I've lost friends over arguments concerning 9-11, Mid-East policy and this war; that is the extent of my convictions over the atrocities being committed in the name of the American people. But I'm always surprised at how many think as I do but are often afraid to speak out for fear of being demonized and even hurt. But as a result of this march/rally I feel I can now do that rather than remain silent. At this point, there is not much else left as options.

by Michael Priddy
(priddy_michael [at] Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 4:54 PM
What was wonderful about the SF 1/18/03 march was the theme of end to war and racism. The diversity of the ground certainly represented that. I'm a verteran of the 1960/1970's anit-war marches and I find the spirit continues. I'm very disappointed that racist comments from Mr. Basheer Khan were printed. Jews and Muslims are not our problems. The politics of power are our problem. Let's keep our eyes on the prize, end to war and racism.
I also need a link to the updated San Francisco Police Department estimate of the crowd size. Last time I read that they were up to 150,000 people.

Please distribute widely.

Pages with overhead rally PHOTOS from helicopter! Also a parade route map; and comments and calculations about rally size. 

January 18 2003 San Francisco peace rally of 200,000 people.

The 6 helicopter photos are posted together at these 3 locations:  --Full-size.  --Full-size  --Page of thumbnails linked to full-size individual photo pages.

Full parade route map. It has been rotated and cropped it so it fits even in the 480 by 640 resolution of small monitors. Here are direct links to the route maps:  --Narrow.  --Narrower.  Route map and article explaining it. 

Copy of Jan 20 2003 homepage with many great worldwide rally links and photos.  This message kills the corporate media disinfo Beast!

About the 6 helicopter photos. On the first photo one can see the curved building on the corner where people were turning onto the long march route on Market Street. See the 6th photo to see that curved building. 

by John
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 5:18 PM
Note the disinformation on US media (NY Times only mentions "thousands" of protestors and shows a very obscured photograph, but KPFA 94.1 FM and Pacifica Radio were at both the DC and SF demos covering the events LIVE with running commentary.

EVERYONE who doesn't yet know about Pacifica raido, which has just survived a Neo-Liberal takeover, should send in their $, labor, love and listen in, on radio, or online to a Pacifica station for progressive news, and a wide variety of music and commentary!
by Biko Casini
(bikountiy [at] Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 6:02 PM
People get ready, it is just the beginning of a long road. This battle will become hotter before it cools down. Take courage! Stand up for what you believe in!
Remember, there are people all over the world who are with us. One Love One Light One People and One shared destiny. We shall Overcome!
by Joe America
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 6:34 PM
Why can't any of you pea-brains on this page figure out that "Title (required)" does NOT mean "Mr.", "Ms.", "Dr.", or "Sir"?

It means the title of your posting. Idiots!

I was NOT in this "convergence" or "mobilization" or "action" or whatever you idiots call it on Saturday. But just from a 10-minute read of some of the postings on this page, I can now say confidently that you are some of the most self-righteous, unintelligent people I have ever encountered.

The next time you feel the urge to waste your time and "converge" or "mobilize" or whatever, do yourselves a favor and educate yourself. Follow the money trail that ends at A.N.S.W.E.R. You're not going to like where it starts. (For the intellectually impaired among you, here's a hint: A.N.S.W.E.R. is not a grass-roots movement, as many of you idiots would like to believe.)

by Ms. Charlie Toledo
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 6:56 PM
Say YES to life yes to sharing global resources, say yes to eco-friendly oil alternatives. Dance in the streets, sing from the heavens, say YES to life and NOOO to war taxes, put a STOP PAY to those who would kill in our name!

love'nlight CAT
by Joe Z.
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 7:21 PM
Perhaps as a result of these photos, the police have now revised the crowd estimate to 150,000. I guess they realize that, in the face of the photographic evidence, their original estimate doesn't pass the "straight face test."

Here's the story

by eco man
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 7:23 PM
I am not from San Francisco and only after I saw a street map did I understand people's descriptions of the march route, locations, and directions.

I now understand that the march STARTED at the end of Market Street near the waterfront, and went 2.7 kilometers to 7th Street where people turned off Market Street to walk the last few blocks to ARRIVE at the Civic Center Plaza.

The red star on the map is at 7th and Market Street, San Francisco, California. The map is from
by Art
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 7:43 PM
My what hostility. Jerks like you most likely voted for Bush. Want to talk about idiots. That's a sure sign. Maybe you should get yourself squared away before you comdem anyone who is'nt in your little mind "as brilliant" as you. You go out now and find some water to walk on.
by Evelyn Velson
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 7:46 PM
The march on Saturday was huge, believe it was at least three times larger than the October 2002 demo. What was outstanding about this demonstration was the diversity: race, age, ethnicity, etc. and the marvelous individuality of the signs. Also, harmony reigned. A suggestion to the fabulous organizers at ANSWER: 1) More music, bands should be used at intervals. 2) Suggest that people using BART t ry to purchase their tickets in advance. 3) That veterans of previous wars lead the demo. 4) That contingents meet at adjourning streets (believe some of this was done) and that others congregate further up the line, as at Montgomery Street or Powell Street. Heartfelt thanks to all who helped to organize this tremendous event. All of us need to do more and more and more. Peace.
by JeanReif
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 7:54 PM
You could do something better than call people names. But, of course, if that's all you can do, we will excuse you.

by Peace
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 7:56 PM
Ok. Joe America. If you're so C-A-T smart, why don't you enlighten the rest of us as to the supposed money trail. Of course I could not find this information on the ANSWER website. If you've got nothing real to share, you're worse than the people whom you claim to be so ignorant. You big dork.
by RD
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 7:57 PM
Hey, Joe. You think you're a clever guy? Man, you got it all wrong.
We don't care about ANSWER money as well as about someone else's money. Actually, it doesn't matter, you clever man:) People didn't come to this action because of money. They came to it because of coming war. Only a number of people who came matters. A number. Of course, someone earns money on this movement, some politicians will make a career on this movement. Same thing happened to the movement against war in Vietnam. Educate yourself , man. I'll say let them make a career, let them grab all the money in the world if it helps to stop the war and violence.

by Laura, an American
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 8:01 PM
Posting Mr. as a "title" is a funny mistake to see people make, but it's not an indication of stupidity, just a lack of familiarity with the posting system here.

It sounds to me, Joe "America" like you came to this site looking for a reason to find fault with the people who protested on Saturday. As a participant in the march, I can vouch personally for the fact that many (indeed probably most) of the protesters present did not come out in support of ANSWER, but instead were ton the street to protest against the possibility of war. There were many, many different organizations walking, many of them voicing very different opinions. It was a great experience to be there and see hear a variety of voices united in protest. It was a truly American scene of dissent.

Finally, as far as internet posting sites go, I think that this page is pretty interesting. If you want to see a bunch of self-indulgent and immature posters, just follow the link after a Yahoo news article.
by Jean Reif
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 8:04 PM
Surely you could do more than call people names. But then, if that's all you CAN do, we will have to excuse you.
by Algorythm
(dshortresearch [at] Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 8:33 PM
Yes to Peace, Yes to Love, Yes to Intelligent discourse, Yes to the Environment, Yes to Social Programs, Yes to the Poor, Yes to the World. and most of all... Yes to the World.

Please write :) I was in SF, I love to share the experience. And, we went down in an alternative fuel vehicle too :) heh

Blessed are the peacemakers... : )
by Algorythm
(dshortresearch [at] Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 8:40 PM
Isn't it funny how the term "Tens of thousands" has appeared in the NY TImes, Washington Post, LA Times, and even the SF Chronicles headlines? Almost like... They want people to remember "Tens of thousands" and not the HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS that actually WERE there!!!

PLEASE post this URL to Everyone you know who cares about America. Who cares what Bushco Inc. is doing to our country, our freedom, our free press, and to people of the world.

Help everyone to see that WE ARE BEING LIED TO, and LIED ABOUT TOO!

IMPEACH BUSH< CHENEY and the LOT of THEM and this time NO PARDONS!

Blessed are the peacemakers...
: ) That's us.
Don't argue with the Freepers, it just causes an exponential increase in conversation that has no real meaning. Ignore them, and talk to your brothers and sisters. I've spent a lot of time trying to argue Freepers down in political chat rooms. I've come to the conclusion that some of them are paid to do it. So... save your energy to be positive, and rejoice in this event!!! It was HUGE it' was AWESOME it was FREEDOM!!! God Bless us All, God Bless America, God Bless the Children of the World. : )

Blessed are the peacemakers...
It's good enough for me

Wouldn't it be great if the corporate media had to refer to indymedia for the truth about the crowd size? Wouldn't it be nice to see them eat crow about their propaganda and their out and out lies?

Blessed are the peacemakers
for they shall be called the children of God.

by El Nino....
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 9:48 PM
So. I want to thank one and all that posted commentary on this site. It has been very entertaining. Part of me wants to reach out to poor 'Joe America' and help him with his myopia and rage issues. On the other hand, what disdain others must feel towards such a brutal, survival of the fittest world we live in. (aparently a world where one helicopter rental has ruined a chance at world peace) whomever posted the first comment:

I wish you hadn't bought that pack of gum last week! What a waste when there are worthwhile efforts growing and in need of your support! Thanks!
by Giorgio Stern
(giorgio.stern [at] Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 10:03 PM
Congratulation...many, many, many

I should be glad to be there, with you

Next time I will be, I hope


giorgio stern - Trieste - Italy (north east)

by Sheila Baker
(pedal4mother [at] Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 10:30 PM
Unbelievable! Inspiring! Beautiful! Thanks for doing this and sharing.
by katherine bock
(lowincomeselfhelpctr [at] Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 10:44 PM
Thanks to the organizers of a splendid march and demo. I think most are underestimating the size.
\We arrived on buses, organized by Students for Justice, from San Jose a little before 12, listened a little at the Embarcadero and then tried to join the march. (As we listened to the last of the speeches we kept hearing the great roars coming from the waiting marchers. It was exciting. And, it was wonderful to hear from deverse speakers, including young people. Another thing I noticed on our bus and at the march were many people who said they had never marched before, but they had to this time. And, we were all generations, ethnicities, and etc. Cool! )
When we tried to join the march, it was at a complete standstill. It inched along for three hours. We didn't even make it into the Civic Center until after 3. I think we were only able to finally get there because some of those in the Civic Center left, some went on the sidewalks and some took side streets. We think 200,000-300,000. The photos don't show the length of the stalled march, although they are pretty snazzy. I say let's celebrate a victory and solidarity with each other. Thanks, again, Sí se puede! The People United Can Never be Defeated!
by Katherine bock
Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 10:50 PM
Finally saw Market Street pics, Thank you. katherine
by John Delevoryas
(bolsero [at] Tuesday Jan 21st, 2003 11:10 PM
Fantastic photos from the helicopter! I am glad my little contirbution made the flight possible.
We must not stop now!!
by Jacqui Showell
Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 12:02 AM
Thanks. This is the side NOT in Australian media -that in the US too the anti war movement is so big. We are shown mainly the war mongerers
From Page A-15 of the January 21 2003 San Francisco Chronicle is an article called

Protest numbers don't add up / Police now say 150,000 safe guess

Click the small image and you get a larger image with this quote:

"On Saturday, police said 55,000 marched to Civic Center Plaza. A spokesman now says 150,000 is a safe estimate and 200,000 is possible. Chronicle photo by Michael Macor."

From the article:

"Police estimates of 55,000 demonstrators came from a counting of people in Civic Center Plaza and did not include marchers who were backed up along Market Street, said Jim Deignan, San Francisco police spokesman.

"Aerial photographs show a packed plaza and masses stacked back along streets leading in. If Civic Center Plaza were filled and Market Street were lined all the way to Justin Herman Plaza, a 200,000 estimate could be accurate, said Deignan."
200,000 easily! Here is one page with a link list of the best January 18 2003 San Francisco peace rally-march aerial photos, aerial and street maps, crowd calculation comments, police estimates, etc.. The simple 42KB street map is there too. Pass on the links there, or just this one link:
by caxcan
Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 3:53 AM
so, whats the point of this pictures? who's paying for this? are the funds coming from the barrels strategically stationed around the civic center? if so, those were the last dollars i donate to international answer. one thing is to cover expenses for the march and another is to hire an helicopter to take pictures. that money could be used wisely. ANSWER could pay to run anti-war commercials in main stream media. so, are the pictures usuful to stop the war? i don't think so. they just build on the ego of certain marchers who look for pictures to say, "yeah, i was there." wars are stoped by direct action towards the system that creates them. that action could be jut walking down market street towards the civic center like the mayority did or it could be taking the streets like the black bloc did or since theres thousands already at the doors of the civic center, why not take over the city government and declare the Independent Republic of San Francisco? oh, by the way, don't helicopters use gas? and, aren't we opposing a war for oil?
by Savvy
Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 4:36 AM
Not only does it back the media into a corner, it helps open the eyes of the public at large to media lying.

by A march participant
Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 5:19 AM
I have a 56K modem, and it wasn't hard to view the photos...

My favorite sign at the march..."We said 'Raider Nation', not 'Raid Our Nation'"

by RasJon
(ras_jon [at] Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 6:59 AM

Having been to all four of the antiwar demonstrations in SF since the first one on 9-29-01, I have been able to assess the progress of the movement via its geometry in growth. It has always more than doubled until now - when it has exploded! Consider that we are way ahead of the curve vis a vis the Vietnam War; The first demonstration had 10,000. The second had between 25,000-30,000. The third demonstation had between 55.000-60,000. And on January 18, 2003 we had around 200,000. A people united will never be defeated! In Solidarity! RasJon
by Joe America
Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 7:29 AM
So.... A show of hands, please.

How many of you drove a car to get to the "mobilization" on Saturday?

One, two, three,...,ten-thousand, ten-thousand-one,...,two-hundred-thousdand.

Ahhh..I see...

That's all I needed to know.

by Jane Ng
Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 8:24 AM
Yes, plenty of people drove to the event, though I'd bet you most people either car-pooled or sat in a bus to get there, coz it would have been impossible to park. Did you see how ridiculously packed the BART stations were? Also, it's not like there'd be no war crisis if we all stopped using our cars. It's about being sensible. Car-pooling and reducing car-usage is sensible. Spending billions on a war for oil is not. Cutting cars out of lives is also not.

By the way, while it may seem an excessive expense to hire a copter to photograph the event, it's extremely important to document any social movement, especially when it's being ignored by the Government and the mainstream media. These pictures is a testament to the efforts and passions of that day, and it will last forever as visual proof no matter what, for the world now and generations hereafter. A few thousand flyers and word of mouth can easily beat a TV ad that has no usage after being aired.

by Stuart Alexander
Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 9:11 AM
Ok, the money could be spent on that, but protests & rallies get minimal press coverage usually, I think it's a good thing to have a helicopter, it spreads the message further and allows people round the world to see how many people turned up.
And you think that these stop the war rallies are effective!? Why are we still going to war then?
by Smarty Pants
Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 3:16 PM
If you want to stop this war you gotta rip the city down. With all those people out there they could of easily. Protesting aint gonna do it. It never has. The US invasion of Vietnam was stopped by the Vietcong not by a bunch of hippies protesting. When dealing with the state you have to talk via the only language that they know...Violence.
by Algorythm
Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 3:51 PM
I agree with you friend, and I detest the property destruction, because it just gives the news media something to focus on while they deflect our attention away by using headlines like "Tens of thousands march". That being said, you have to understand that when you have crowds this huge, you are going to attract every type of person imaginable. And, lots of us are angry. I'm angry, but I choose not to express it in violence. Perhaps others choose to do so, and probably some just can't help themselves. Unfortunately, when Bush starts the "Real" war, the ranks are going to swell very fast, and peoples anger is going to be much more raw. Try not to focus there, march your own march sister and be thankful, as I am that we are all one in opposition.

Blessed are the peacemakers,
January 17, 2003

Draft Impeachment Resolution Against President George W. Bush
professor of law, University of Illinois School of Law

108nd Congress H.Res.XX

1st Session

Impeaching George Walker Bush, President of the United States, of high crimes and misdemeanors.



January __, 2003

Mr./Ms. Y submitted the following resolution; which was referred to the Committee on Judiciary.



Impeaching George Walker Bush, President of the United States, of high crimes and misdemeanors.

Impeaching George Walker Bush, President of the United States, of high crimes and misdemeanors.

Resolved, That George Walker Bush, President of the United States is impeached for high crimes and misdemeanors, and that the following articles of impeachment be exhibited to the Senate:

Articles of impeachment exhibited by the House of Representatives of the United States of America in the name of itself and of all of the people of the United States of America, against George Walker Bush, President of the United States of America, in maintenance and support of its impeachment against him for high crimes and misdemeanors.


In the conduct of the office of President of the United States, George Walker Bush, in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in violation of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, has attempted to impose a police state and a military dictatorship upon the people and Republic of the United States of America by means of "a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations" against the Constitution since September 11, 2001. This subversive conduct includes but is not limited to trying to suspend the constitutional Writ of Habeas Corpus; ramming the totalitarian U.S.A. Patriot Act through Congress; the mass-round-up and incarceration of foreigners; kangaroo courts; depriving at least two United States citizens of their constitutional rights by means of military incarceration; interference with the constitutional right of defendants in criminal cases to lawyers; violating and subverting the Posse Comitatus Act; unlawful and unreasonable searches and seizures; violating the First Amendments rights of the free exercise of religion, freedom of speech, peaceable assembly, and to petition the government for redress of grievances; packing the federal judiciary with hand-picked judges belonging to the totalitarian Federalist Society and undermining the judicial independence of the Constitution's Article III federal court system; violating the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions and the U.S. War Crimes Act; violating the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination; reinstitution of the infamous "Cointelpro" Program; violating the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, the Convention against Torture, and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; instituting the totalitarian Total Information Awareness Program; and establishing a totalitarian Northern Military Command for the United States of America itself. In all of this George Walker Bush has acted in a manner contrary to his trust as President and subversive of constitutional government, to the great prejudice of the cause of law and justice and to the manifest injury of the people of the United States.

Wherefore George Walker Bush, by such conduct, warrants impeachment and trial, and removal from office.


In the conduct of the office of President of the United States, George Walker Bush, in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in violation of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, has violated the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution. U.S. soldiers in the Middle East are overwhelmingly poor White, Black, and Latino and their military service is based on the coercion of a system that has denied viable economic opportunities to these classes of citizens. Under the Constitution, all classes of citizens are guaranteed equal protection of the laws, and calling on the poor and minorities to fight a war for oil to preserve the lifestyles of the wealthy power elite of this country is a denial of the rights of these soldiers. In all of this George Walker Bush has acted in a manner contrary to his trust as President and subversive of constitutional government, to the great prejudice of the cause of law and justice and to the manifest injury of the people of the United States.

Wherefore George Walker Bush, by such conduct, warrants impeachment and trial, and removal from office.


In the conduct of the office of President of the United States, George Walker Bush, in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in violation of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, has violated the U.S. Constitution, federal law, and the United Nations Charter by bribing, intimidating and threatening others, including the members of the United Nations Security Council, to support belligerent acts against Iraq. In all of this George Walker Bush has acted in a manner contrary to his trust as President and subversive of constitutional government, to the great prejudice of the cause of law and justice and to the manifest injury of the people of the United States.

Wherefore George Walker Bush, by such conduct, warrants impeachment and trial, and removal from office.


In the conduct of the office of President of the United States, George Walker Bush, in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in violation of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, has prepared, planned, and conspired to engage in a massive war and catastrophic aggression against Iraq by employing methods of mass destruction that will result in the killing of hundreds of thousands of civilians, many of whom will be children. This planning includes the threatened use of nuclear weapons, and the use of such indiscriminate weapons and massive killings by aerial bombardment, or otherwise, of civilians, violates the Hague Regulations on land warfare, the rules of customary international law set forth in the Hague Rules of Air Warfare, the Four Geneva Conventions of 1949 and Protocol I thereto, the Nuremberg Charter, Judgment, and Principles, the Genocide Convention, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and U.S. Army Field Manual 27-10 (1956). In all of this George Walker Bush has acted in a manner contrary to his trust as President and subversive of constitutional government, to the great prejudice of the cause of law and justice and to the manifest injury of the people of the United States.

Wherefore George Walker Bush, by such conduct, warrants impeachment and trial, and removal from office.


In the conduct of the office of President of the United States, George Walker Bush, in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in violation of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, has committed the United States to acts of war without congressional consent and contrary to the United Nations Charter and international law. From September, 2001 through January, 2003, the President embarked on a course of action that systematically eliminated every option for peaceful resolution of the Persian Gulf crisis. Once the President approached Congress for consent to war, tens of thousands of American soldiers' lives were in jeopardy - rendering any substantive debate by Congress meaningless. The President has not received a Declaration of War by Congress, and in contravention of the written word, the spirit, and the intent of the U.S. Constitution has declared that he will go to war regardless of the views of the American people. In failing to seek and obtain a Declaration of War, George Walker Bush has acted in a manner contrary to his trust as President and subversive of constitutional government, to the great prejudice of the cause of law and justice and to the manifest injury of the people of the United States.

Wherefore George Walker Bush, by such conduct, warrants impeachment and trial, and removal from office.


In the conduct of the office of President of the United States, George Walker Bush, in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in violation of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, has planned, prepared, and conspired to commit crimes against the peace by leading the United States into aggressive war against Iraq in violation of Article 2(4) of the United Nations Charter, the Nuremberg Charter, Judgment, and Principles, the Kellogg-Brand Pact, U.S. Army Field Manual 27-10 (1956), numerous other international treaties and agreements, and the Constitution of the United States. In all of this George Walker Bush has acted in a manner contrary to his trust as President and subversive of constitutional government, to the great prejudice of the cause of law and justice and to the manifest injury of the people of the United States.

Wherefore George Walker Bush, by such conduct, warrants impeachment and trial, and removal from office.

(In memory of Congressman Henry B. Gonzalez - R.I.P. - and H. Res. 86, 102nd Cong., 1st Sess., Jan. 16, 1991.)

Francis A. Boyle, Professor of Law, University of Illinois, is author of Foundations of World Order, Duke University Press, The Criminality of Nuclear Deterrence, and Palestine, Palestinians and International Law, by Clarity Press. He can be reached at: FBOYLE [at] LAW.UIUC.EDU

This came from

Blessed are the peacemakers,
by Manasvi
Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 4:14 PM
Great you publish these photos ! At least it eases the feeling of helplesness regarding all these power brokers who are not shy to talk freedom while imposing war.
by Sherry Reson
(sherry_reson [at] Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 4:30 PM
re the class issue involved in downloading pics: I view and very occassionally print big pictures at my public library. They have the technical capacity, they have the machines. I can walk in and, within an hour at most, be on a machine for 20 min to an hour. If your public library doesn't have a bank of computers with internet access, start organizing! Makes a big difference.

by Sherry Reson
(sherry_reson [at] Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 4:30 PM
re the class issue involved in downloading pics:

I view and very occassionally print big pictures at my public library. They have the technical capacity, they have the machines. I can walk in and, within an hour at most, be on a machine for 20 min to an hour. If your public library doesn't have a bank of computers with internet access, start organizing! Makes a big difference.

by Jared Dreyfus
(dreyfusj [at] Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 4:56 PM
I was at the demo in part as reporter and one of my principal preoccupations was to estimate the size. I arrived early and interviewed various people and as march time drrew near, walked to the front of the march which was a couple of blocks up Market from the Embarcadero.
As the march progressed I dropped in and out to catch some detail. I finally decided to get back to the front, but never made it. By the time I got to Civic Center the central area was about 1/3 full at it was about 12:30 PM. By one o'clock the central area was full and I was standing on the sidewalk on the north side. Marchers were still coming in a steady stream up McAllister.
I wanted to see the final crowd and kept waiting for the end of the march to arrive. At about 2:30 I asked a man with a vantage point point down McAllister if her could see the end. "Still solid", was his reply.
At 2:45 I got access to a radio a heard KPFA reporting the end of the march at Market and Main !
This reporter thinks 200,000 is a conservative estimate of the crowd.
If there is any chance of getting the times the various photos were taken I would find that very valuable.
Jared Dreyfus
by Arlene Fuller
(fuller4h [at] Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 6:57 PM
Hi, I was just wondering how does one estimate the total number of bodies? There must be some sort of grid analysis: like 5 people per square yard. Let me know.
I think the low estimate is just another ploy to divert the attention and down size, down play the impact of thousands of peoples voices. It is amazing how peaceful and organized the masses can be when drawn together for a common purpose.
I noticed that the Santa Rosa Press Democate gave the demonstration a small column on the front page followed by color photos and larger story inside. It should have been larger on the front page for my liking. And what about the lack of television coverage for the SF march? disappointing to say the least. Keep the peace. Arlene Fuller
by John Delmos
(nrthrd2000 [at] Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 7:37 PM
I was there, and someone said there was 200,000 people there. We were crammed in the BART like sardines!! It was very peaceful, didnt see any fighting or arrests, no negative stuff at all.
It was definately historic.
I noticed the regular news media made a big deal abouit a few people who decided to break some windows, but I never heard about it until I was back in Berkeley on the "news".
by John Delmos
(nrthrd2000 [at] Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 7:38 PM
I was there, and someone said there was 200,000 people there. We were crammed in the BART like sardines!! It was very peaceful, didnt see any fighting or arrests, no negative stuff at all.
It was definately historic.
I noticed the regular news media made a big deal abouit a few people who decided to break some windows, but I never heard about it until I was back in Berkeley, on the "news".
by Ruth
Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 9:00 PM
I rode with a disabled friend. Then I rode back on a school bus to Santa Rosa with 650 others from Santa Rosa, then I rode home with 4 other people in a Subaru.
by mbc
Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 10:56 PM
You can read my personal account, and see more photos and video here:
by J.Johnson
Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 11:20 PM
To those who believe they need to break things, destroy, rage, etc. What gives you the right to such self indulgence? I'm in a rage about what has happened to our country as well and this certain-to-be war is disgusting beyond belief. I would like to displace my anger onto something as well, given that I can't personally punch George Bush out BUT I'm not going to. It makes me really mad that some very small number of people who have no impulse control are going to make it even more of an uphill battle than it already is for the anti-war message to get out. to the rest of America. Those of you who riot are going to get all the press coverage that will be given to the anti-war movement and that is selfish beyond belief. Given that we already know the press is playing down the anti-war movement AND given that we can only stop this thing if we can win the hearts and minds of many, many more Americans, YOU WHO RIOT will be grabbing all the coverage that will be given. Shame on you. Grow up.
by J.Johnson
Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 11:20 PM
To those who believe they need to break things, destroy, rage, etc. What gives you the right to such self indulgence? I'm in a rage about what has happened to our country as well and this certain-to-be war is disgusting beyond belief. I would like to displace my anger onto something as well, given that I can't personally punch George Bush out BUT I'm not going to. It makes me really mad that some very small number of people who have no impulse control are going to make it even more of an uphill battle than it already is for the anti-war message to get out. to the rest of America. Those of you who riot are going to get all the press coverage that will be given to the anti-war movement and that is selfish beyond belief. Given that we already know the press is playing down the anti-war movement AND given that we can only stop this thing if we can win the hearts and minds of many, many more Americans, YOU WHO RIOT will be grabbing all the coverage that will be given. Shame on you. Grow up.
by no violence
Wednesday Jan 22nd, 2003 11:28 PM
Click here:
by raven
Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 12:08 AM
As someone who attends the gay pride march every year I can tell you that the media usually estimates (probably an under estimation there too) that there are a quarter million people there, and this crowd was at least twice that size! so if we take that idea and estimate that there were a half million people there, it might not be too much of an over estimation at all!
by Bassil Ali Haydar
Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 12:45 AM
We do not choose where we are born or who are parents are. I was born in Iraq, but I consider myself to be a citizen of the world and as such I always look to the big picture of the interest of all that is good in humanity. I applaud those who voiced their descent against this war. Though it is true that Saddam Hussein is a horrible tyrannt he remains a strictly Iraq problem at this point in history. It is not up to the U.S. administration, which has lost it's moral compass to decide who will lead the Iraqi people just as much as it is not up to the people of Iraq to decide who will lead the U.S. As a youngster growing up I always idealized America. I thought the word "American" meant "human being." Perhaps I was naive to believe that since the history of this nation is riddled with the suffering of others. It was not the majority that decided that slavery was wrong, nor was it the majority who admitted that the natives who lived here were short shrifted nor the hundreds (if not millions) killed in south east Asia deserved our collective compassion. As an admirer of Dr. King, I remember when he was also villified, I do think it is a matter of non-violence or non-existence. Though I write in very broad terms here it does stem from a lifetime of global experience and extensive research in Middle Eastern affairs. Let me assure everyone who reads my comments that we all should look to the endgame (the net result) of any policy that advocates killing others to gain security, peace, justice and a host of other slogans advocated by this administration. Yes, the U.S. will win this campaign. The Iraqi people will be humiliated. Hundreds of thousands will needlessly die whose name is not "Saddam Hussein." There will be celebrations and people will soon forget. However, the wounds of this campaign and the generations still to come will not easily forget or forgive. The cycle will worsen beyond the scope of our lives. We should look to others as our allies. Blood also runs through their veins. Our policies should be pro-active and engage the ideals in others. Change will only happen from constant engagement and a shift in the human heart. As it stands, the American people in general do not care. They are not in the streets by the millions protesting the inevitable death of other human beings including their young who will not defend this countries security nor it's long term interests. America's security is at home. America is not God on earth to have it's military everywhere and refer to itself as a superpower. Such arrogance is not welcome. America will not really liberate Iraq but simply install a regime who could not do the job itself. Those who wish to overthrow Saddam merely wish to trade places with him. As Saddam sought approval to overthrow his mentor and before then to overthrow the pervious regime, so will this lot. Are they all bad? No, but those who seek to kill their own people to gain power should not be viewed as morally credible especially when they seek others to do their dirty deed. The solution lies in lifting the sanctions and then allowing the Iraq people a respite where an opposition can over time overthrow this monster and his cronies. Saddam will not live forever and his sons will not gain the approval that he did, despite his brutal record. Justice for the Palestinians must be a priority and Israel should accept it's historic blunder and responsibility for it's actions. The endgame should never be about who wins more, but about repairing the wrong of the past. Unfortunately, Israel's leaders brought their sons and daughters into harm's way by forcefully claiming what was not theirs. History cannot be changed. The future can be sought with inclusiveness and not an exclusive existence as many in Israel seem to advocate. A bandaid solution without justice will not last long. These are complex questions that demand creative visionaries that love humanity and could care less about "us' verses "them." Direct engagement and real first hand knowledge should govern political attitudes and not mere heresay and old prejudices. We can "imagine" as John Lennon once stated and realization should not be far behind. Keep up the protests!
by salim
(zala [at] Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 1:19 AM
Desde Venezuela,les deseo la mejor de las suertes en sus actividades en favor de los vecinos de la ALDEA GLOBAL ( PLANETA TIERRA )
hoy nuestro pueblo venezolano lucha contra una elite que discrimina , excluye y goza de priviligios osiosos para cualquier Estadounidense, Venezolano o ciudadano del mundo, Y sabemos que los que hoy En Estados Unidos, impulsan la guerra como forma de comunicacion entre los pueblos, son espiritualmente identicos a los que en Venezuela quieren la GUERRA PARA LOGRAR LA IMPOSICION DE SUS IDEAS RACISTAS, al punto mde habre causado con actos terroristas la interrupcion de combustible al pueblo americano Estadounidense, yhan diesmado los infresos del Estado Venezolano, obligandonos a estar sin nuestros salarios sin la provision de medicinas a los hospitales publicos, a las escuelas publicas que atienden a 7 millones de niños, a pesar de un llamado a la incorporacion de las actividades escolares y a desoir alos terroristas que escudadndose en un entelequico derecho a HUELGA desconocen y pisotean decenas de Deechos humanso, entre ellos el PRONCIPAL EL derecho a la vida ( ESTO NO LE PARECIO IMPORTANTE AL FLAMANTE PREMIO NOBEL DE LA PAZ CARTER )
by Smarty Pants
Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 2:06 AM
"Given that we already know the press is playing down the anti-war movement AND given that we can only stop this thing if we can win the hearts and minds of many, many more Americans, YOU WHO RIOT will be grabbing all the coverage that will be given. Shame on you. Grow up."

Shame on you for allowing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi people to die in the next few weeks.

Thats a good German Jew! Maybe they'll even spare you if you push the other jews into the gas chambers. What would of happened to the German state if every Jew picked up a gun or knife tried to kill the SS soldiers coming for them instead of trying to flee or hide. It would of severely crippled the German Police State. The German army would of had to send soldiers from the advancing lines back to Germany to try and control the situation (if they could).

Learn from history...don't repeat it!

Start here:
Pacifism As Pathology: Reflections of the Role of Armed Struggle in North America by Ward Churchill
by Smarty Pants
Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 2:15 AM
"we can only stop this thing if we can win the hearts and minds of many, many more Americans"

One more thing. Winning the hearts and minds ain't gonna change nothing. Wars are unpopular...they always are. Thats why they bring in the draft. This one is already unpopular. But business controls America (and most of the world) and they decide what happens and what doesn't happen. Until you take over industry and resources ain't nothing gonna change.
by Jennifer Epps
Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 2:59 AM
I was at the march and I can well believe there were 125,000 or more. I chatted with some cops and they asked me how many people I thought were there! I said "150,000" and one cop said "You're probably right. This is much bigger than the Million Man March in Washington." I love these aerial shots and I'm so glad ANSWER had a helicopter. Bravo. That's exactly what we need to counter the mass media, who like to say "thousands" or at best "tens of thousands." But we need to show these pics to the media and announce our estimates of numbers on the same day as the event so they will write their stories with accurate estimates of the numbers rather than the devious police low estimates! Can we use a grid system to calculate the numbers with these aerial shots???!!
by Gerard
(vegan [at] Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 3:12 AM
It surprises me that indymedia would report a number the same as the chronicle. Why is the mainstream media argueing over 55,000 or 200,000 people?
I have attended many huge events including five pride parades where estimates were closer to one million.
The crowd on the 18th easily surpassed any pride and the only reason I can think that real estimates are not reported is that the rest of america would not believe it.
by I've seen this before
Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 3:56 AM
Hey this looks just like my ant farm.
by fuck bush
Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 5:50 AM
clearly the "people" believe the opposite of the "government". organizers need to create autonomous decision making processes for the masses, that are not controlled by the government. the constitution gives us the right to assembly. if the zapatistas could do it , let us also do it here. how about a Bay Area Peoples Assembly, something that can represent 250,000 or more people directly. something that bypasses bullshit like "electoral colleges " etc. WHO WILL ORGANIZE DIRECT DEMOCRACY? will it be the commies? autonomous anarchists? the green party? Nader? ...
by Grrrl
Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 8:23 AM
I was picked up on a bus to go to the march and countless other students and community members were as well. When was the last time you rode a bus, or rode a bike? As for me, I am as conscious of the environment as I am of the political state of affairs, and I took a bus along with 50 other people. Plus, many of the protestors were residents of the bay area, and simply walked or took the BART to the protest. If you were REALLY conscious of the environment, you would not attempt to undermine the actions being taken to prevent a war that would certainly harm it.
by alexander
Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 9:41 AM
si tu eres un vecino que todos los dias molesta a alguno de tus vecino, llegara el dia que todos tus vecino se uniran para darte una leccion, el tiempo del imperio se esta acabando son demasiado los atropeyos que estados unidos le ha hecho al mundo a esto se suma las faltas morales ante Dios Ser suplemo que ha alargado su misericordia sobre esa nacion pero, afirmo su tiempo se esta acabando.
by Carolyn Zaremba
(ZarembaZwoman [at] Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 3:11 PM
I think that it was money very well spent to get those aerial photographs of the march! After having to listen to the government-controlled media understating the numbers and attempting to relegate the marchers to the ranks of crystal-sniffing whale watchers, anarchists, or worse, a showing of the sheer massiveness of the turnout of people from every conceivable life situation is long overdue. Next: I want satellite pictures! But I'll bet the government has those already. That would certainly demonstrate the scope of the dissenting public!
by now you're talking
Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 3:19 PM
When? Where?
by Sam
Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 4:18 PM
Isn't there a similar protest scheduled in February?

by Andrea Luna
(hello [at] Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 4:50 PM
Keep It Going!!!
by Andrea Luna
(hello [at] Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 4:50 PM
Keep It Going!!!
by Andrea Luna
(hello [at] Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 4:50 PM
Keep It Going!!!
by Andrea Luna
(hello [at] Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 4:50 PM
Keep It Going!!!
by Fran E.
(frantastic2hands [at] Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 5:12 PM
by Fran E.
(frantastic2hands [at] Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 5:12 PM
by mypayfundsyourdismay
Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 8:20 PM
Losers on Parade!! It's too bad that the majority of people were working to provide your welfare state...
by Algorythm
(dshortresearch [at] Thursday Jan 23rd, 2003 11:41 PM
Regardless of the actual body count at the march, I believe that these photos prove what those of us who were there already knew. Although somewhat bigger than the last march in October, which was huge, this one was gigantic. The people are marching, yelling, screaming, drumming and placarding their objection to this military action. Don't back off now brothers and sisters! Keep the pressure on, make the false leaders duck and cover, after all, almost all of them are known chickenhawks and cowards. They're only going to keep doing what they're doing as long as they think they can get away with it. Lets show them that the People are going to call them to account!!! Lets Impeach Georgie the lesser, Arrest George the Elder, Arrest Dirty Dick Cheney, and throw out ALL the other bums that this administration is foisting on us!!! And, lets start organizing some Massive actions at CBS, NBC, CNN, Fox, TBS, and ABC for starters... It's going to be hard for them to broadcast their pro-war propaganda with 100,000 people screaming their opposition to their lies, and pounding on their doors and windows!!!

We can win this!!!

by Peacenik
Friday Jan 24th, 2003 12:42 AM
Here's a little something to do before the next anti-war march:

ORGANIZE a demonstration for peace at your local gas station, on February 4th. On that day, hundreds of gas stations across the country and around the world will be targeted as we send a clear message that access to oil is not worth war.

Leafleting, vigils, street theater, and other forms of nonviolent direct action are all encouraged. Our intent is to communicate through education and peaceful confrontation that clean energy alternatives to oil exist, and that they can increase our security and give us true energy independence.

More info here: Target Oil
by S.P. Wakil
(arvada [at] Friday Jan 24th, 2003 4:45 AM
I know one thing: those of us who were there were the winners by the very fact that we were there. Those who unhappily could not get there felt deprived of the opportunity to "stand up and be counted" alongwith their winner brothers and sisters.

I am a trained and professional researcher in the Social Sciences. Take my word that what I say is correct. I am sure that there would have been some individuals of the opposite opinion but even they had concerns about the relevance of Iraq as a threat to our national security as well as economic cost of thw war to the Nation at this time. You'll be surprized that a goodly number felt that many European countries will contribute money, as will Japan to the war effort -- those who are suffering from "Iraq's embargo on export of its oil" ... to countries that need it and whose transportation needs [air transport] are being hurt e.g., Germany, France, England, and Italy.

Go gigure!
by Nelynda F.
Friday Jan 24th, 2003 8:33 AM
Obviously you are not too concerned about the importance of making accurate and valid public statements. Of all the people I know (which are many) that were present for, or involved with the organization of the peace movement currently sweeping the nation, there is not a single case of welfare support. In fact all are employed and also funding what you referred to as a welfare state. Hopefully, there aren't too many people who are as hoodwinked by the current police state dynamics that our country is now faced with. If there are we are doomed. Please get a clue.
by Bryan
Friday Jan 24th, 2003 9:06 AM
I'm sorry that you feel you "had to work" the day that most of us "welfare" cases were out parading around. You'll be happy to know that many, if not the majority of us, are working stiffs just as yourself...(so, you say). Perhaps the next time something as important as this roles around, you'll have the foresight to stand and be counted. I'm a professional firefighter and paramedic. What is the essential job that you perform which kept you from exercising your right to free speech?
by Gary G.
Friday Jan 24th, 2003 2:31 PM
I'm jealous of all who got to go and participate. Me? I, along with about twenty others, were waiting standby hoping to get a spot on one of the buses from Atlanta to DC. Unfortunately we didn't get in. I'll be there next time though. And as an aside, I'll throw out there the question of what politicians fear? Certainly not violence-- that only allows them to look macho while cracking down harder. Raised awareness-- especially through comedy-- that not all blindly follow the official word just might persuade public opinion (and in the politicians' minds-- voters) just might slow down that runaway freight train some call pResident.
Hey kaci, go educate yourself :

visit .... where you can read :

"... During the operation, Israeli soldiers repeatedly used indiscriminate and excessive force, killed civilians willfully and unlawfully, and used Palestinian civilians as human shields. IDF troops also inflicted damage to homes, businesses, and government offices; looted and stole in the course of searches; coerced civilians to assist military operations, and detained at least 4,500 Palestinian men and boys, many of whom reported ill-treatment during arrest and interrogation. From March 29 to April 19, the Israeli authorities impeded the entrance of outside observers, including journalists, human rights activists, United Nations representatives, and the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC). These violations reflected patterns of abuse that--partly reflecting the effective impunity enjoyed by Israeli soldiers--had progressively worsened since September 2000. .... "

Ariel Sharon : go screw yourself !!
by history buff
Friday Jan 24th, 2003 3:31 PM
Tell that to Louis XVIII, Nicholas II, Hitler and Tojo.
by Shrub wants war!
Friday Jan 24th, 2003 6:18 PM
Let's try it and see what happens.

Place 1/2 c. uncooked rice in a small plastic bag (a snack-sized bag or sandwich bag work fine) Squeeze out excess air and seal the bag.

Wrap it in a piece of paper on which you have written "If your enemies are hungry, feed them. Romans 12:20 Please send this rice to the people of Iraq; do not attack them."

Place the paper and bag of rice in an envelope (either a letter-sized or small padded mailing envelope - both are the same cost to mail) and address them to

President George Bush
White House - 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
NW Washington, DC 20500

Attach $1.06 in postage. (Three 37 cent stamps equal $1.11)
Drop this in the mail TODAY.

It is important to act NOW so that President Bush gets the letters asap, preferably before the report from the inspectors comes out on the 27th. In order for this protest to be effective, there must be hundreds of thousands of such rice deliveries to the White House.

We can do this if we all forward this message to our friends and family. If every peace loving household sent one of these, and the tens of thousands of persons who think war is a mistake also send them...we are hundreds of thousands of people!

There is a positive history of this protest!

Read on! "In the mid 1950s, the pacifist Fellowship of Reconciliation, learning of famine in the Chinese mainland, launched a "Feed Thine Enemy" campaign. Members and friends mailed thousands of little bags of rice to the White House with a tag quoting the Bible, "If thine enemy hunger, feed him." As far as anyone knew for more than ten years, the campaign was an abject failure. The President did not acknowledge receipt of the bags publicly; certainly no rice was ever sent to China.

"What nonviolent activists only learned a decade later was that the campaign played a significant, perhaps even determining role in preventing nuclear war. Twice while the campaign was on, President Eisenhower met with the Joint Chiefs of Staff to consider US options in the conflict with China over two islands, Quemoy and Matsu. The generals twice recommended the use of nuclear weapons. President Eisenhower each time turned to his aide and asked how many little bags of rice had come in. When told they numbered in the tens of thousands, Eisenhower told the generals that as long as so many Americans were expressing active interest in having the US feed the Chinese, he certainly wasn't going to consider using nuclear weapons against them.

" From: People Power: Applying Nonviolence Theory by David H. Albert, p. 43, New Society, 19.
by Gerald Hill
Friday Jan 24th, 2003 7:12 PM
you suck bad!!!!
by Big Bob
Friday Jan 24th, 2003 7:16 PM
Yep. Hes right.
by Dave Joy
(davejoy999 [at] Friday Jan 24th, 2003 8:13 PM
God, I would give anything to be a copy editor in this city!!!
by Conser
Friday Jan 24th, 2003 9:58 PM
...they are not, but think about it when you drive your car, fly plane to vacation,e.t.c. you moron
by Markie
Friday Jan 24th, 2003 11:26 PM
The SF march was awesome! We'll be back again next month.

You trolls better get your sorry rejoinders ready! You have a whole month. Think hard. Or, visit your local recruiter for some terrific opportunities.

BTW, if you have broadband and Quicktime, please view the movie I made at:


by Markie
Friday Jan 24th, 2003 11:33 PM
One other thing:

Some of you trolls are beaching about the cost of helicopters.

Well, the sky was controlled by three (3) CHP copters and one (1) CHP single-engine plane.

How much do you suppose that cost our deficit-ridden state?

Trolls: write the CHP today and demand an end to wasteful spending of tax $$'s.!!
by Heretic
Friday Jan 24th, 2003 11:34 PM
DEAR MERCIFUL LORD!! I am so happy to see factions of wacko's from the far left arguing with other wacko's from the far left! Woo Hoo!

Keep it up, you naughty little leftists!! You're doing just fine!!


P.S. Never underestimate the stupidity of people in large groups!
by Bebe Faircloth
Saturday Jan 25th, 2003 2:37 AM
You spelled etc. wrong, you moron!
by Benito
Saturday Jan 25th, 2003 2:57 AM
The fact that many of us use automobiles do not mean that we have to kill for oil. We should develop others means of energy. I will prefer to walk than support a killing for oil.

by Joe G
Saturday Jan 25th, 2003 6:05 AM
I told you fools this was not the election to get all "let's have a 3 party system". but everyone had there leftist academic ivory tower arguments.
by Peacenik
Saturday Jan 25th, 2003 6:29 AM
This just in:

To avoid conflict with the pre-planned Chinese New Years Parade in San Francisco, the sponsers of the next anti-war march have move the march up one day to Sunday, Feb. 16th. Same time, location & route as last time. I don't know if they've got the updated info on their websites yet but International ANSWER and United for Peace should have more info in the next couple of days.
by Peacenik
Saturday Jan 25th, 2003 6:29 AM
This just in:

To avoid conflict with the pre-planned Chinese New Years Parade in San Francisco, the sponsers of the next anti-war march have move the march up one day to Sunday, Feb. 16th. Same time, location & route as last time. I don't know if they've got the updated info on their websites yet but International ANSWER and United for Peace should have more info in the next couple of days.
by andrea
Saturday Jan 25th, 2003 2:34 PM
Nader said he was running to present progressive issues and he did. (Even Gore at his Demo convention was forced to step slightly to the left in his speech.)
He said he was running to further the movement, not just the Green Party, and he did BOTH. (Green Party enjoyed a 500% increase in voters voting for them and elected more than half of the candidates they ran; the progressive movement has protestors active far earlier than happened for the Vietnam War and the numbers are increasing rapidly.)
He said he would challenge the media corporations and he did. (He forced their hands by setting up SRO rallies that neither the Demos or the Repubs ever came close to setting up number-wise.)
Even though DC and the media tried to kill him off after the Florida coup, he's back and talking and still WOWing them at rallies. Nader's legacy will live on long after these greedy oil slicks occupying the White House are dead and buried. Nader saved millions of lives while these parasites on the republic murder millions in their quest for oil.
by cp
Saturday Jan 25th, 2003 4:56 PM
by Chris C.
Saturday Jan 25th, 2003 4:59 PM
hey i teach people how to use photoshop professionally and am astounded at the quality of the pictures... very good work..... i had to look very hard to see how the pictures had been doctored. that copy and paste shit works wonders doesn't it? if you look closely, you can see patterns... patterns of color in the crowd... that could have been worked out a little better but hey who's looking that close right? ain't computers amazin'?
by Partisan
Saturday Jan 25th, 2003 5:30 PM
These photos are not doctored in any way. Anyone who was at the march would know that. You don't know shit about photoshop are anything else, you are a fraud, a pathetic fraud.
by now
Saturday Jan 25th, 2003 10:14 PM
70 green parties around the world have called for an EXXON BOYCOTT.! when will the US greens start promoting it? when will ANSWER? when will the speakers call for it at rallies?of 250,000 people prbably many go to exxon every day, voting with their dollars to starve iraqi kids. EXXON and chevron are planning to run the iraq oil fields. read the DOD contingency plans for after the war. candidates who know they will lose shouldnt run, no matter how good their ideas. the govt. doesnt care how we vote , but the rockefellers aka EXXON will care if the left ever gets around to show how they are behind every war and every fascist CIA dictatorship.
by Meg brizzolara
(nutmeg55 [at] Sunday Jan 26th, 2003 1:24 AM
Anyone who thinks these photos were doctored by Photoshop WASN'T THERE. You couldn't move! The agoraphobic in me became panicky at the throngs and throngs of people. Does the Chronicle or the NYTimes use Photoshop? They're pictures are equally breathtaking.
by Meg Brizzolara
(nutmeg55 [at] Sunday Jan 26th, 2003 1:31 AM
Where are the huge numbers of people the media would have us believe support this war? Looks like a handful of reporters to me.
by David Fuller
Sunday Jan 26th, 2003 4:06 AM
It should be obvious we need to create an alternative civilization. Every dollar we spend for oil or through our taxes goes toward global tyranny.
by David Clerest
(dcpfanclub [at] Sunday Jan 26th, 2003 9:25 PM
I'm a Rock musician who has been writing anti-war songs since 1980s. Those were the era when people didn't care about such things as peace and all was about sex, drugs and rock n' roll. It's so amazing to see people are finally awakening to the truth of what's happening in the world, and maybe it is time to find some appreciation for my work. Please visit the website. to see where I've been.
Love & Light..... David Clerest
by Miles
Monday Jan 27th, 2003 1:43 AM
You appear to be ga-ga over Ralph Nader by making wild claims like, ?Nader saved millions of lives,? and, ?he forced their hands(the media).? I really don?t believe anything has changed in the media since Saint Nader?s holy name graced the ballot in 2000. In fact, it is far worse. Nader was so wrong to paint Bush and Gore as the same person and I regret voting for him. With W we are now on the war march, mining and chopping our wildlands and could possibly be seeking abortions in alleys sometime soon. Additionally, you attempt to somehow credit Nader with the anti-war effort that is building every day, instead of crediting the real people behind the evolution of the current movement, like Ramsey Clark and other individuals like you and me. I don?t recall seeing Ralph Nader?s name on the signed resolution. Ralph Nader had nothing to do with me deciding to attend the last two protests on SFO, it was my choice and the emails I received from ANSWER. Attempting to compare the anti-war movement of the Vietnam War to today?s movement is very simplistic. The current impending war is a rapid buildup with massive international attention, therefore lending us the time neccesary to build opposition before it starts. We also have modern tools like email, cell phones, internet, etc., which make it easier for people to network and organize. The start of the Vietnam War was much more amorphous. It took years to slowly reach a horrible level, but when it did the protests were massive, and they pervaded many aspects of art and music. Instead of drafting SUV drivers, like you propose, lets not draft anybody and try to live in peace.
by Jay Hubbell
(hubbell [at] Monday Jan 27th, 2003 3:09 AM
Photo Shop doctoring?

Not a chance in your "color pattern" delusional hell! I was THERE. You obviously were not. The crowds were easily a quarter of million packed shoulder to shoulder most of the length of Market Street AND the Civic Center Plaza. If anything, the organizers are under-estimating the count.

I was in the middle of the march. I did not leave the Embarcadero rally until about 12:30 pm. I arrived at the Civic Center Plaza about 2:30 pm as a massive stream of participants was exiting. Marchers were still arriving at 3:30 pm. As the photos correctly evidence, marchers were filling many side streets from Market to the Civic Center as many ignored the barricades to take various alternative routes to the Plaza.
by Dan D. Gutierrez
Monday Jan 27th, 2003 6:28 AM
I wish I could have attended the SF anti-war protest. Instead, I and a handful of other peace advocates kept the faith here in Los Angeles for a gathering near downtown. We need to keep up the pressure, and not let a madman lead our country to ruin. Still, I think his mind has been made up, and I fear what will transpire once the first bombs start to fall on Iraq. The wrath of the "real" terrorists, Osam Bin Laden and Al Qeada, will begin. Bin Laden is laughing at Bush right now. Bush is doing Bin Laden's bidding.
by Bradley Mayer
Monday Jan 27th, 2003 8:09 PM
I take it, Photoshop wizeguy, that you are shipping out to the Middle East any day now? Or are you just another courageous chickenhawk? Let's hope that it is the former, so that we may say: "See Ya" - and don't come back!
by Bradley Mayer
Monday Jan 27th, 2003 8:45 PM
Hey "Orwell": its off to Middle East boot camp for you, chickenhawk! Seeya!
by Robert M. Taylor
(rmt_1_2000 [at] Monday Jan 27th, 2003 11:44 PM
When I take a look of those photos from: San Francisco, it reminds me of how October 26, 2002, went in my mind, and how now! January 18, 2003, was, I hope another one of these can occur soon again!
by zack the mack
Tuesday Jan 28th, 2003 6:40 PM
why is there so much bickering and infighting in these forums?
forget your beef with ANSWER or Nader or whatever, get together, and DO SOMETHING. Your infighting only hurts us and i have to wonder which one of you are shills.
by Jason the Lion Heart
Tuesday Jan 28th, 2003 11:04 PM

I would like to point out to you guys that you are in the minority ;-)... This was published recently in leading new periodical....

289 Million Americans Avoid Peace Rallies
(2003-01-19) -- Police across the nation estimate the crowd that avoided yesterday's anti-war demonstrations at about 289 million. Americans from coast-to-coast voted in absentia against criticizing the Bush administration for Iraq's failure to comply with U.N. resolutions.

Anti-anti-war demonstrators gathered in grocery stores, shopping malls and private homes to proclaim their disagreement with protestors marching in the streets of Washington D.C. and San Francisco.

"Going about my regular Saturday routine is my way of saying I disagree with the radical left-wing agenda of the anti-Bush crowd," said college student Melanie Sampson, who spent the day preparing a term paper for a literature course.

Police reported no unusual problems with the droves that stayed away from the protests.

"It was a normal Saturday in America," said one Sheriff's deputy.

Wednesday Jan 29th, 2003 5:03 PM
Hi Zack,
I'll "forget my beef" with Nader when I hear him take responsibility for the fact that these scary fundamentalist Christians are in power because he stayed in the presidential race. And when he acknowledges that even though they're far from who we might want them to be, our only hope to restore some measure of sanity to this country and therefore the world is to support the only viable alternative, the democrats. To those who still don't believe there's enough difference between Republicans and Democrats - PLEASE - do you homework and think for yourselves. We're in the middle of a national and global nightmare - but wait - there's a small light at the end of the tunnel. In one year we begin the process of electing a new president. We can change things in the blink of an eye. Imagine Bush voted out of office in 2004. Cheney gone, Ashcroft gone, Rumsfield gone.Those of us who share a vision of a better world will always need to work for change, but with the democrats in office we at least have an ear for the causes dear to us.
by Michael Folta
(michael_folta [at] Thursday Jan 30th, 2003 2:01 AM
Ple fwd photo to:
<halinaf [at]

by Michael Folta
(michael_folta [at] Thursday Jan 30th, 2003 2:01 AM
Ple fwd photo to:
<halinaf [at]

by Paul
(paul [at] Thursday Jan 30th, 2003 5:06 AM
Here's my photos and some descriptions:

I just had to do a ballpark estimate of the numbers, see the link for my rough figures. I tried to show the more moderate participants as there were many of those present.
by Sondra
Saturday Feb 1st, 2003 5:42 PM
Your message is well taken,
BUT PLEASE make some effort ot improve your
spelling and grammar!
by SAM
Saturday Feb 1st, 2003 5:59 PM
Fun you should mention Hitler. What would this world be like if he would have died of old age? Oh, by the way Hitler ever did anything to the good old USA. We had "PEACENIKS" marching for Hitler at that time. Today, they march for Sadam. God bless Presidents who know when to act !!!

ps.Just for fun let's all fly to Bahgdad an have a "GET SADDAM OUT OF OFFICE" rally. We'll only need a one way ticket. God Bless George W.
by Clayton Stouffer
(special [at] Thursday Feb 6th, 2003 1:23 AM
Since the police always give highly questionable estimates it is important to verify the actual count as that reinforces the positive image of a demonstration. Plane rentals are cheap. I have rented them to tow signs for as little as $600. Helicoptors cost more, but are well worth it as a means of verifying the size of the turnout.

Clay Stouffer
by Sharon
(sjadams1 [at] Thursday Feb 6th, 2003 3:38 PM
I've been a life long Democrat (and that's a long time) and I always said the Democrats were the alternative. But, then I read in The Chronicle that the Democratic Senator from "liberal" California, Ms. Feinstein, says "the Security Council must . . . compel compliance or the council does in fact become irrelevant". In political speech she means "we must go to war" . I say I will never vote for her again. I don't care if she's a Democrat. I'm voting Green.
by annalisa
Tuesday Feb 11th, 2003 2:03 AM
I got to this page from a link on a page posted by someone offering an alternative to a blackbloc "call to arms" strategy (for the 2/16 protest). And in the same way that blackblocs deeply disturbs me, so do some of the comments on this page. I f you mask your face at a protest (the way some blackbloc "members" do), you are not truly standing up for what you believe in. Face the truth! In a similar way, although I do not condone Israel's policies, I think suicide bombing is cowardly. (I think Israel is cowardly as well.) However, to Basheer Khan, if you read this, there are many jews in the military. And so what if there are lots of jewish people in high positions. I know my family came to this country from Russia to escape oppression and worked hard to get what they have(whickis still not much compared to the WASPS). So many people in this comment area are too quick to compare Israelis or Americans to Nazi Germany or even Hitler. Think about it. Can you even fathom what it must of been like? And "Sam" is right, to a certain extent. Although it is debatable why the Americans entered WWII, they did! And poeple didn't do it soon enough. Saddam is not a Hitler(yet). The American Government is not fascist (yet). But it is our civic duty to monitor these things rationally and not to point fingers at eachother. I get so upset when I see people throw around hateful words. Please, let us not repeat our mistakes. The roots of racism still run very deep!
by love is in the air
Tuesday Feb 11th, 2003 2:37 AM
we must keep positive and love each other as best as we possibly can, understand differences, and show compassion. left, right, muslim, jew. in the end, none of this pointing the finger method will really matter. we must affect people in our everyday lives in order to cause change.
by love is in the air
Tuesday Feb 11th, 2003 2:41 AM
we must keep positive and love each other as best as we possibly can, understand differences, and show compassion. left, right, muslim, jew. in the end, none of this pointing the finger method will really matter. we must affect people in our everyday lives in order to cause change.
by Sharon
(sjadams1 [at] Wednesday Feb 12th, 2003 9:24 AM
My college lover was jewish. His mom kept a kosher kitchen. Now, I find myself on the other side of the aisle from many jews. The palestinians and others seek the demise of Isreal. We know this. We also know that jews were not the only victims of "ethnic cleansing". Africa - the hutus and tutsis. The Balkans - serbs, croatians, muslims. Yes, Saddam Hussein is a threat to Isreal. And, North Korea is a threat to South Korea. The only reason the USA is in Iraq is oil, and the US is exploiting the racial tensions in the region to gain control over oil. The US is using Isreal to gain control of the region and THAT'S WRONG. The tradegy of the holocaust is not a reason to support Isreal.
by Tyler Cheney
(huntingsux [at] Thursday Feb 13th, 2003 9:00 AM
Why do you patriots think every one is protesting for? There protesting because all we hear on tv these days is The US starting wars for money and greed! So thats why people protest its because War is wrong.
by Jeff Grant
(JGrant2705 [at] Saturday Feb 15th, 2003 9:48 AM
You bunch of lowlife, communist style, Hitler like
anti amercan, unpatriotic idiots. We need this war and
Saddam Insane and his regime must be ousted as well the terrorists who want nothing more than kill americans. This includes you bunch of idiots.

Can't you see and understand this. Open your shaded eyes. See the truth to which you are blinded. If we sit back and do nothing, this country will see terrorism much worse than what the WTC was. You people need to wake up to reality and fantasizing about dream. A dream of peace with those who commit hanious acts of vilence against their own and threaten to do so against americans. Of course a dream may rise once the evil has been dealt a mighty blow. You idiots and the few around the world who oppose this war are pussies and further endanger to this country and the world.

Your website says and I quote "Join us as we
assert our autonomy from the laws and lawmakers that perpetuate war and poverty.

Well, the only thing perpetrated here is terrorism by
your organization. Wake UP!!

If this demonstratoin continues, I will seek petition
to file a lawsuit against your oganization for breach
of my peace for you actions cause great distress to
myself and the good and wonderful people of the great
nation and further concerns and fear of terrorist
actions by the factions already present in this land.

Lasty,on bahalf of those who support this war, a
majority of this nation, we assert our autonomy from
your organization and those idiots who perpetuate
terrorism against the american people. You are a
disgrace to this country. And look what you bunch of unamericans did to our national flag. You disgraced it like you disgrace this country. You are an abomination to mankind. And some of the signs depicted in the pictures of your Oakland demonstration of absurdity, shows how ignorant you people really are.

As with our government, myself and those who favor
this necessity, hereby, disapproves your actions. Your
BS demonstration is NOT permitted. Consider it and
outlawed action.

Go to hell and if you are lucky, may God have at least
a little bit of mercy on your sorry souls.

Jeffrey S. Grant
Veteran of the US ARMY
by we've heard it before.
Saturday Feb 15th, 2003 10:23 AM
Now crawl back under your rock, you evil, blood thirsty, war mongering abomination.
by de-program
Saturday Feb 15th, 2003 8:14 PM
You are probably supportive of the illegal Coup D'etat that currently runs this country. You express your blind obedience to those that control you every thought. Its hard to imagine the rage and fear perpetrated upon you during your service to those who would profit from your hate and destruction.

Lets not forget Oklahoma City, mmmm let me think, what was that soldier's job?

Dont even be bothered by this psuedo conintelpro bs, its so pathetic at this point...
by astaplatz
Sunday Feb 16th, 2003 7:51 AM
...Our war veteran has forgotten what the first amendment and the constitution represents.

You would hope that our country´s soldiers at least knew what the principles of our natrion suposedly were before they willingly placed their life on the uranium wire;... for country and nation.

by kusno supriyadi
(kusno_supriyadi [at] Sunday Feb 23rd, 2003 2:27 PM
It is really good websites for you:
it is disturbing to me that you would use the name af a pretty intelligent guy(and a socialist, something you seem to be against) to make such ridiculously unintelligent "backwards" remarks. well...
by Profiler Jack
Saturday Mar 15th, 2003 1:28 AM
I was completely disgusted by ANSWER's crappy treatment of volunteers...and lack of gratitude towards those of us who helped them out at previous demonstrations......any group that cant say THANK YOU to people who donate thier time and money to help them isnt worth spit in my opinion, and i would be hard pressed to think of a reason to support them in the future......
by stay focused
Saturday Mar 15th, 2003 1:34 AM
It's about the war. It's not about who's against it. Stay focused. We don't have time to infight right now. Put it on hold. Stop the war first. Infight later. Lives depend on it, a LOT of lives.
by cp
Saturday Mar 15th, 2003 8:27 AM
yes, it's true that it's important not to infight at this point - we can do that next month after the escalation. But can you provide any details? I've heard a few things like that they tend to hit volunteers up for a lot of money. Was it just the member of the ANSWER bureaucracy who was administering volunteers in your task area, or was it the whole group? I mean, they sort of look like they suck to me. Organizing is a skill not everyone has, but at least 30% of people are capable of organizing something.
by rumor control
Monday Mar 17th, 2003 8:42 AM
that radical Queers will attack freepers with bar darts dipped in HIV blood. You'll be safe as milk. Come on down.
SF Indymedia has never advocated, nor do we now advocate violence. What we advocate is that both violence and non-violence be accurately portrayed in the media. The corporate media refuse to do this. It omits the overwhelming bulk of the story, and distorts the rest beyond recognition. Indymedia picks up their slack. Whatever happens, be it non-violent, violent, or (more likely, both), you’ll read about it here, on SF IndyMedia.

We, personally, intend to commit no violence. But we’re not going to stop anybody, either. We couldn’t if we tried. To a certain extent, no one can. What we are going to do, is give you the part of the story that the corporate media doesn’t. We’re going to do it, for the most part, with the actual words of eyewitnesses and participants. This you will not get from corporate media. Not only wont they tell you the whole truth, they couldn’t if they wanted to. They lack our access. Eyewitnesses and participants have been lied to, and about, by the corporate media to ever trust it again. Us, they trust. We don’t lie about them. We encourage them to tell their own stories, and provide them with a way to do it.

As events unfold during the next several days, we will also provide pictures, video and audio, from the center of the action, live on the ground, in the very front lines. San Francisco is home to small army of radical videographers. They are very well organized. You’ll see what they see.

But so much will be going on at once, and in so many places, that they need help. If you are a videographer, or even just have access to a camera, you can help. If you are not linked into their network, you can still contribute pictures, audio or video to SF IndyMedia’s documentation of the events currently going on around here. If you don’t know where to position yourself to get the best shots, not to worry. Enemy Combatant Radio is here to help.

When the bombing starts, tune into 93.7 for tips as to where the good photo ops happening. Then get out there and shoot. Then go home, edit and upload. Upload short (2 min) clips, so as to not strain our bandwidth.

For the first few days, we are primarily interested in police brutality shots. Save the shots of cute faces, people chanting, clever signs, your personal friends, and all the rest of the human interest stuff until the following week. That’s not what needs to be going out first. What needs to go out first is whatever most closely resembles the famous Rodney King footage. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to get some Rodney King type footage, and post it to SF IndyMedia. This is what we need most to get out first. Everything else can wait. Edit with this in mind. Two minutes is plenty.

Shooting this kind of stuff safely, can be tricky. Watch your back, and always have at least two escape routes in mind. If do you happen to capture some footage like this, leave the scene immediately. Get away as quickly as possible. Get the footage away safely. Don’t hang around to shoot any more footage. Your mission is accomplished. Get to a safe place and upload it. Thanks in advance. Good luck. Stay safe.
(kusno_supriyadi [at] Thursday Mar 20th, 2003 10:07 AM


The child in the picture was one of two killed just last week when a bomb from a Coalition aircraft mistakenly hit a residential area of Bazra in Southern Iraq.

On the eve of a new war with Iraq, the crusader allies have gone out of their way to assure their skeptical public that civilian casualities will be kept to a minimum. They have boasted that their precison guided bombs will only target military targets and residential areas will be left unscathed.

These are just the same damn old lies that were often repeated by crusader forces in Afghanistan and elsewhere to conceal the murky reality of a vicious war they wish wage on the Muslims of Iraq.
by S Sheth
(sagar21sheth [at] Thursday Mar 27th, 2003 7:57 PM
I find it unfortunate that people see use in picking on the words and acts of man during times of war. War is a characteristic of human-kind that leaves every person involved truly helpless and emotionally reactive. The desires for morality and enlightenment must be put aside. How can any person expect to judge right and wrong when the world is forced to take part in such loss. No sane person enjoys defeat on either side. To be anti-war or pro-war is a useless thought. Few in this world I am certain are "pro-war". To expect that civilians could ever be spared no matter the precision of modern weapons is ignorant. Such is the consequence of war, pointing fingers certainly proves valid arguments to produce hatred and justification, but this is what created war in the beginning. We are all human, and we are all at loss together. It is in hope, that together we see that dispite the fault and truth on either side, that the world is a better place at the end. It must rain to see the rainbow when the sun does finally rise.
by Scott M. Gray
Saturday Mar 29th, 2003 11:36 AM
It seems the Iraqi leadership has just relieved the Air Defense Commander, as it has been determined (if you can trust any news around the world) that it was Iraqi Air Missles that came back down on the Baghdad Market Place. You can visit here for fair news: All opinions are accepted, read and replied too.
by somebody
Friday May 2nd, 2003 9:49 PM

Okay, it's hardly worth responding to this comment, Mr. Scott M. Gray, because it's mostly a plug for your undersubscribed website. But lest anyone be concerned about this report, it has not been proven that the missiles at the Shula or Al-Shaab marketplaces in Baghdad were from Iraqi forces. In fact, the media doesn't seem to have followed up on either story since reporting the military's spin that it "might" have been Iraqi missiles. Anybody got updates from real sources, post em here.
by Linux to the rescue
Saturday Sep 13th, 2003 11:24 PM
Not with this for a wireless webcam platform we wont.



This whitepaper from Intrinsyc describes how engineers at IBM's Pervasive Computing Advanced Technology Laboratory created an embedded Linux based intelligent, high-level remote control system for a model airplane as a way to showcase Gateway Server technology.


A "gateway server" is a system that acts as a bridge between the Internet and an intranet of local devices, allowing you to talk to and control any connected device. For example, a home gateway server could connect to various devices in the home to allow you to synchronize your lawn sprinklers to weather reports on the Internet. From your wireless PDA, you could turn on lights, set your VCR, monitor your alarm system, or even fly a plane. The range of applications is virtually unlimited.


by two can play that game
Sunday Sep 14th, 2003 10:55 AM
Look! Up in the sky! It's a spybot.


AATD: Vigilante On Secret Mission?
David S. Harvey
11/09/2003 21:00

Advanced Technology Inc’s Vigilante ultra-light sport helicopter is basis of another family of UAV solutions being studied at AATD.

One mission being looked at, for instance, is a so-called ‘poster child’ project to fit 2.75 inch Hydra rockets with a laser seeker -- a contest recently won by British Aerospace (over Raytheon).

But the Vigilante -- which started life as a helicopter so light it could be flown in the civilian world in the ‘experimental category’ - now has a secret existence far from the madding crowd, perhaps with the CIA.

The U.S. Army’s Aviation Applied Technology Directorate (AATD) officials confirmed during a briefing ‘another agency’ was now flying the aircraft on some type of clandestine sensor mission -- most likely biological agent detection.

When and where was not revealed, but the ‘early entry’ status the aircraft gets as a result could be a boost for its VTOL UAV future.
by Look up. Smile. Wave.
Monday Sep 15th, 2003 1:42 PM
And speaking of spybots in the sky, check this out:

Northrop Grumman Begins Development and Production of Next Generation Global Hawk

WASHINGTON, D.C., Sept. 15, 2003 (PRIMEZONE) -- U.S. and allied war fighters can look forward to a new larger, more capable model of the U.S. Air Force's Global Hawk unmanned aerial reconnaissance system. Northrop Grumman Corporation's (NYSE:NOC) Integrated Systems sector, the Global Hawk prime contractor, has begun developing and producing the new RQ-4B model following a recent $30.1 million award by the Air Force for advanced procurement activities and long lead hardware.

The new RQ-4B configuration provides a 50-percent increase in Global Hawk's payload-carrying capacity while retaining its ability to meet the Air Force's operational requirements for altitude, endurance and range. The added capacity also expands Global Hawk's intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance capabilities to now include signal intelligence (SIGINT) payloads.

Northrop Grumman will produce three RQ-4B air vehicles at its Palmdale, Calif., manufacturing facility as part of the third lot of Global Hawk's low-rate initial production. The air vehicles will be delivered between 2004 and 2005.

"We've significantly improved its utility to the war fighter while maintaining overall system performance," said Carl O. Johnson, vice president and Global Hawk program manager. "The RQ-4B's ability to carry multiple sensors not only expands its value to the Air Force's command and control constellation, but also positions it to meet emerging requirements for the U.S. Navy and potential international customers."

Besides carrying additional SIGINT and ELINT payloads, the RQ-4B will be able to carry the Multi-Platform Radar Technology Insertion Program (MP-RTIP) payload currently being developed by Integrated Systems. It also will accommodate payloads that are being evaluated for the Global Hawk Maritime Demonstration scheduled for 2005 during the Fleet Battle Experiment-Mike activities.

Compared to the current Global Hawk, the RQ-4B has a larger wingspan (130.9 feet versus the current 116 feet) and a longer fuselage (47.6 feet versus the current 44 feet). Northrop Grumman has also improved the RQ-4B's electrical output power by 150 percent through the implementation of a new generator and minor changes to Global Hawk's current high performance Rolls-Royce AE-3007 engine.

The new LRIP Lot 3 contract also includes long-lead funding for one RQ-4A production air vehicle with the current integrated sensor suite (EO/IR and SAR), one launch and recovery element, and one mission control element.

Northrop Grumman Integrated Systems, headquartered in El Segundo, Calif., is a premier aerospace and defense systems integration enterprise. As one of Northrop Grumman Corporation's seven sectors, it designs, develops, produces and supports network-enabled integrated systems and subsystems for U.S. government, civil and international customers. Integrated Systems delivers best-value solutions, products and services that support military missions in the areas of intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance; battle management command and control; and integrated strike warfare.

by dc
Friday Oct 31st, 2003 1:22 PM
So you think your so intellegent. is that what makes you so arrogent , selfish and egotictical??(much like the Government !!!) No wonder you support the Corporations and ass kissers.
F#@k Off.
by mikwww
Friday Jun 24th, 2005 7:04 PM
Oh my god you stupid idiot. Two years later you must realize how stupid this comment is. The portests were undercounted by 100,000 people in a bald faced lie to diminish the credibility of the protests. And those human shield ideas were worthless!
Liberals lost because of the stupidity you represent.
by William Reyes
(cessna172 [at] Tuesday Jun 28th, 2005 4:35 AM
Why rent a chopper? I am an Iraq vet against the war. I'll fly you guys for free if you need pics. I'm sure there are pilots for peace in your area too!