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The Sad Decline of Indymedia
by Chuck0 for InfoShop news
Monday Dec 9th, 2002 12:37 AM
It was a great idea when the Independent Media Center opened up its first website for the Seattle anti-WTO protests in December 1999. The first IMC website came out of years of alternative and grassroots media activism. By a strange quirk of fate, the Seattle IMC also included something called the "open newswire," an experiment that allowed every reader to be a reporter, if they wanted to get involved in DIY, participatory media production...
December 8, 2002

It was a great idea when the Independent Media Center opened up its first website for the Seattle anti-WTO protests in December 1999. The first IMC website came out of years of alternative and grassroots media activism. By a strange quirk of fate, the Seattle IMC also included something called the "open newswire," an experiment that allowed every reader to be a reporter, if they wanted to get involved in DIY, participatory media production. The IMC network recently observed its 3rd anniversary and the 100th IMC went online, but the IMC project is facing some serious problems which, if they aren't addressed by the supporters of the IMC network, will eventually destroy the wonderful idea that is Indymedia.

There are some that would argue that the Indymedia network needs a stronger organization to address its current and persistent problems. This may be somewhat true, but those of us who have pressed for reforms find ourselves at the mercy of a network of people who are afraid to step forward and make tough decisions. It might help if there were some more organized processes, but I see the chief problem with Indymedia these days to be a political one, not an organizational or technical problem.

The IMC Network has a statement of principles and so do most local IMCs. However, the political orientation of the IMC has never been firmly established. Other IMC volunteers and myself have strongly argued for a series of regional IMC meetings and conventions to resolve these questions. The problems with the IMC's vague politics is not so much what ideology it should embrace, rather what ideologies and content the IMC Network rejectsand opposes. This vagueness on politics has allowed an international network of right wingers and racists to abuse and disrupt the IMC websites, which has harmed the IMC's functionality and reputation in ways that may not be fixable without stepping on lots of toes.

If you are a regular visitor to the IMC-Global website (http://www.indymedia.org), you may have noticed some big changes earlier this year. The "open" newswire was moved off the front page for a variety of reasons. The most diplomatic reason was that many felt that the features being created by local IMCs should be featured on the Global website. This was a solid idea and should have been implemented despite the other reasons. The messier reason why the open newsire was relocated was because the IMC Global volunteers were fighting a losing campaign against right wing disruption of the website. This disruption aimed to establish "free speech" space on the Indymedia websites for right wing views and racist posts--the people doing this knew that the liberal free speech attitudes of most IMC volunteers would paralyze them from implementing consistent moderation. This right wing attack also included the posting of constant anti-semitic content, right wing op-eds and articles (carefully stripped of their source infromation), conspiracy theories, and other crap designed to ruin the reputation of the Independent Media Network.

I was part of the IMC Global Newswire collective during this period and made proposals concerning a process to deal with this problems. I also painstakenly documented the attack patterns by the right wingers and showed that certain individuals were posting similar content at the same time to various IMCs. This campaign by our enemies was successful because the IMC volunteers refused to implement aggressive moderation and otherwise dragged their feet until the changes were made earlier this year.

What did we lose when the right-wingers won? First, we lost the Indymedia network as a public space for our activists. If you remember what the IMC websites were like in the year after Seattle, you will remember them as places where activists came together to talk about issues. After the right wingers had their way for a year, you would commonly hear activists complain about Indymedia and say that they didn't bother with Indymedia anymore.

Secondly, the inability of the IMC network to take aggresive action against racist and anti-semitic posts further damaged the Indymedia's reputation with Jewish people and people of color. We understand that some pro-Israel extremists think that anycriticism of Israel is anti-semitic, but the IMC network became a hotbed of just plain anti-Jewish articles, opinions, and comments. Part of the problem within the IMC network is that most activists refused to stand up to the free speech totalitarians within the network, who argued that everything posted should stay visible to the public.

I've been a free speech advocate for many years and often considered myself to be a free speech zealot, but not even I would argue that our websites should provide anyspace for right wing and racist views. The racists have their websites--we don't need to use our limited resources to promote their hideous and offensive views.

The net result of this inaction is that racist and anti-semitic views became normalizedon Indymedia websites. Sure, newswire moderators would remove the occasional racist rant or picture, but lots of stuff was left online. This normalizationof racist content showed the racists and right wingers that they could have their way with Indymedia. It also alienated lots of potential Indymedia supporters. Why should a Jewish activist participate in an alternative media project that tolerates hate speech against that person?

I'm also convinced that the right wing posted lots of conspiracy content to ruin the repuation of Indymedia. I have no problem with the occasional conspiracy-type article posted to an IMC website, but I think there was good circumstantial evidence that the right wing was posted conspiracy content with the aim of damaging the reputation of Indymedia, not just in the eyes of the public, but in the eyes of the chief stakeholders: the activist community (and movements).

I still remain a big supporter of the Indymedia project. The Indymedia project has become a revolutionary force that has greatly empowered DIY journalists, rank-and-file activists, and average working people. This essay is not meant to criticize IMC volunteers, rather to call out to supporters of alternative media projects to speak up and demand that the IMC make some tough decisions to address these vexing and persistent problems. The Indymedia project has great potential. Let's not throw out the baby with bathwater in our efforts not to step on toes.
by just curious
Monday Dec 9th, 2002 12:38 AM
I couldn't agree more
by ...
Monday Dec 9th, 2002 1:06 AM
Many of the most blatantly "anti-Semitic" articles are probably from extremist supporters of Israel who try to eliminate discussion of the Palestinian/Israeli issue -- this is discussion that cannot happen on any other media; it's discussion about the historical accuracy of what we've always been told about the Palestine/Israel conflict through our media, how our billions in "aid" is being used by Israel, how Israel gets by far the most aid of any country in the world from us, etc. I agree that blatantly anti-Semitic posts should be removed (and they are when they are found).

In addition to anti-Semitic posts there are also anti-Arab posts (many of which are genocidal in tone). These don't seem to garner the same amount of hand-wringing as the other kind (no mention of this above). Up above, a complaint is made about "anti-Semitic" articles not being deleted (which is not true, they are when they are found), but no complaints about some of the anti-Arab. Is anti-Semitism so much worse than anti-Arab hatred that we should make special allowances for this but no other type of hatred?

It is my opinion that anti-Semitism in this day and age is marginalized and not much of a threat -- the way it should be. Anti-Arab racism is so prevalent that it often goes unnoticed -- like the air we breathe. If you don't believe that, take something said about Arabs that might sound innocuous to you and replace the word "Arab" with the word "Jew" and see how it comes out sounding. With this technique, you can uncover a great deal of hatred you would never have noticed before.

Fair is fair -- both anti-Semitic and anti-Arab hatred as well as any other type of blatant hatred should be removed. Treating anti-Semitism as special is...well racist.
by Lapis
Monday Dec 9th, 2002 1:16 AM
I think the people that are meant to get and understand the messages provided my Indymedia, will get them. I also believe that with intelligence comes discernment, so many can see through the rightwing barrage. In fact I think they actually wound themselves with their obvious display and help bring about a deeper resolve to those who truly understand the issues presented here.
by a
Monday Dec 9th, 2002 6:51 AM
The solution of local and global newswires seems to have solved alot of the above mentioned problems. We may not catch everything racist or sexist but at least it doesnt end up in the most visible areas...

At the same time we are open enough to get new ideas and let people argue which for the most part has given many lefties tougher skin (which is probably a good thing)
by ???
Monday Dec 9th, 2002 7:09 AM
Why does he do these bulk postings when every IMC is different and not all have the same problems... As a bulk post it also makes it hard to respond since I doubt he actually checks in on all of these posts...

Anyway, in response I agree that Indymedias are having problems with alot of right wing and antiSemetic posts but the best way to deal with that is by hiding things and making everyone know that the open sections of the site are open... (and the local global thing at SF seems to work well too)

Some AntiSemetism is fake but Ive seen some of this stuff on antiwar listservs and it should be confronted

The Indymedia seems to be doing very well with many nonEnglish IMCs being pretty safe from the right wingers who I doubt speak any other languages except English.

Anyway, I get annoyed with posts like this since its dealing with every Indymedia globally as if they are all the same and doesnt really offer constructive criticisjm with suggestions. Does Chuck0 think all Indymedias should be moderated? Many are...
by Mark Konrad
(VanguardNN [at] uboot.com) Monday Dec 9th, 2002 8:21 AM
SOUNDS LIKE A LONG WINDED AND COWARDLY WAY OF CALLING FOR CENSORSHIP

What is a "Free Speech Totalitarian" ???

I don't fear a thing you have to say, but you fear what perhaps I and others do. If you are able to argue effectively against points made on Indymedia, then please do it. If you are unable to, well then, ask yourself why you cannot, and reflect upon that, rather than demand those points be censored.

Mark Konrad
VNN
by Eric
Monday Dec 9th, 2002 8:46 AM
I want to know why you liberals make such a big deal out of having to tolerate "your enemies" voices on these bullplop propaganda wires? It's such a terrible thing, freedom of speech, isn't it? You leftists are champions of tolerance and diversity, as long as the opinions of contributors agree with you own, aren't you.

You are such a bunch of insignificant hypocrits. How pathetic.

So a few right-wing conservative types scribble all over your lil' forum. What a travesty! You'd have thought we were a-kin to some liberal minded IMC militant that decided to go out and murder a cop in the name of anti-globalism.
by gehrig
Monday Dec 9th, 2002 11:21 AM
"a few right-wing conservative types"

An intentionally diffuse euphemism, especially given that the post right above yours is signed by a member of "VNN" -- "Vanguard News Network," the net presence of the neo-Nazi National Alliance. There used to be a Vanguard type named Eric Busse robo-posting in alt.revisionism -- any relation?

The original poster asked why Jewish activists would even consider involvement with the IMC movement. I wonder that too, when so many IMC sites display posts whose antisemitic content is open or only slightly veiled, and where those antisemitic posts are routinely blamed on "the Zionists (wink wink)" as well, adding insult to injury the Nessie way.

It's a good point. I'm here for essentially one reason -- to help clarify the difference between antisemitism and anti-Zionism. I'm not going to change any minds on Israel vs. Palestinians, given that moderates on both sides have sadly been driven out of the debate here (leaving only those who rant at me that "blood is dripping from my fangs"). But I hope I can get people to take a closer look at what's behind their rhetoric.

Antisemitism and anti-Zionism aren't apples and oranges, even though that's one of the bumper-sticker-level arguments that get rehearsed here frequently. It's more like apples and yellow fruit. All apples aren't yellow, but only a fool would say that an apple _can't_ be yellow "because apples and yellow fruit are two different things."

But there are those who act as though any comment whatsoever is automatically certified 100% antisemitism-free as long as it doesn't use the word "Jews" -- even if it consists of applying age-old antisemitic archetypes against Israel.

Examples: changing the _Protocols_' "the Jews completely control the press" to "The Zionists completely control the press"; changing the blood libel to that infamous SFSU poster showing a Palestinian child "killed according to Kosher rites"; changing the "secret Jewish cabal that controls nations" to "Bush's advisors, of whom I will only name the Jewish ones and hope you don't notice"; that kind of thing.

Those of you who remember the infamous Willie Horton ad know that you don't have to explicitly name an ethnic group in order to exploit the related stereotype. The above examples do a "Willie Horton" but on a different ethnicity.

Unfortunately, there are those who can't be bothered with such distinctions. They don't know the boundaries (or else believe their self-righteousness indignation alone gives them an excuse to ignore them), don't know when they've crossed them, and then find themselves unable to explain why they're being called antisemitic after they plow right through them. So they respond -- and God knows how many times we've all seen it -- "They're only calling me 'antisemitic' because I've attacked Israel."

Which makes me chuckle, since it's essentially quoting poor befuddled Pat Buchanan.

The Arab-Israeli conflict is complicated. Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something.

If he sez the Palestinians are e-e-evil, he's oversimplifying. If he sez the Israelis are e-e-evil, he's oversimplifying. If he sez Palestinian nationalism is the root of all e-e-evil, he's oversimplifying. If he sez Zi-i-i-ionism is the root of all e-e-evil, he's oversimplifying.

And if he says that anti-Zionist rhetoric is never antisemitic, he's oversimplifying.

@%<
by Chuck0
(chuck [at] tao.ca) Monday Dec 9th, 2002 2:49 PM
I only posted my essay to Infoshop News. I have no idea who posted it to IMC websites, but I've started looking around to see how many websites it was posted to.

Evidently somebody liked the essay enough to post it on several IMC websites.

BTW, I'm not calling for more moderation of newswires in this essay--I'm calling for the Indymedia network to address these issues more seriously.
by D
Monday Dec 9th, 2002 2:53 PM
"It is my opinion that anti-Semitism in this day and age is marginalized and not much of a threat -- the way it should be. Anti-Arab racism is so prevalent that it often goes unnoticed "

Not true. When hundreds of Arab and African immigrants marched through the streets of Paris last year shouting "Death to Jews" (Take note it wasn't "death to Zionists) there was no outrage from your anti-racist activists nor was it mentioned of IMC. An Egyptian gas station owner in Michigan painted a mural over his business describing Jews as "bloodsuckers" and "pigs" and celebrating the holocaulst....there was no protest in the largely African American neighborhood where it was promenently displayed. Imagine the same mural, directed at African Americans- they would have protested.. as would have all the IMC "anti-racists"

The writer also makes it clear that Anti-arab remarks are taken more seriously by assuming none of them are "fakes" while assuming that some or many anti-jewish remarks are part of that ol jewish plot to manipulate the masses.
by double standards hater
Monday Dec 9th, 2002 3:46 PM
The new book by Jewish writer Robert Spencer is a smear against Islam yet completely tolerated, in the media, taken seriously . No outcrys from anyone. In my opinion, as a Christian, it is no better than any book David Duke writes, which is not to be found in any book store. The same should be true for Spencer's inflammatory book "Islam Unveiled".
Show us a picture.
by Eric
Monday Dec 9th, 2002 5:09 PM
>You apparently need a grammer lesson. "I want to know why" is a statement, not a question. Statements end in periods, not question marks.

He's been on a grammar rampage as of late. I don't know what's been stuck up his ass. I was sort of starting to feel bad about my poor grammar skills, until the schmuck followed up with:

>Perhaps you should take a remedial English course at your local community college

and forgot the period at the end of the sentence. Where is your college degree from again Einstchmuck? Is that a question or a declarative statement there Einshmmucck?? Should I oughta use a period or a smegma-colon here Einshmmuckstien?

Dumb-schmuck sticks his foot in his mouth yet again.
by mike
Monday Dec 9th, 2002 7:39 PM
<It is my opinion that anti-Semitism in this day and age is marginalized and not much of a threat -- the way it should be. Anti-Arab racism is so prevalent that it often goes unnoticed>

I think it is more correct to say that anti-Semitism IN THE UNITED STATES is marginalized; the enormous prestige of the Jewish religion in this country and the extraordinary success of American Jews are among the U.S.'s greatest contributions to world history.

Outside the U.S., unfortunately, anti-Semitism (or, more precisely, anti-Judaism) does indeed flourish, especially in the Arab world, owing in large part to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the backwards educational and religious institutions in these countries.

However, it is wrong to use Arab anti-Judaism as an excuse to whitewash Israeli brutality towards the Palestinians or to discount the rising tide of anti-Arab racism in the U.S., much of which is being encouraged by elite Jewish opinion makers like Daniel Pipes and the editors of Commentary magazine.

And it certainly doesn't excuse the stranglehold the "Israeli lobby" has on public debate in this country. By "Israeli lobby," by the way, I don't mean "Jewish lobby." Jews would be much less effective on Israel without the Christian fundamentalists at their side. Many of these fundamentalists are anti-Semitic, a dirty little secret apologists for Israel decline to acknowledge.
by Ex-anarchist Eric
Tuesday Dec 10th, 2002 6:28 AM
>That was a typo.

Nice disclaimer.

>You, on the other hand, made the same grammatical error two sentences in a row, indicating that you apparently don’t know a question from a declaration.
And you don’t know how to spell “Einstein”. See:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2001/12/111243_comment.php#111382

oh, and here:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2001/12/111816_comment.php#112064

again here:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/05/126289_comment.php#126404

and yet again, here:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/09/150111_comment.php#150302


So what is your point? Is my mere lack of grammatical attention while posting to the “propaganda wire” as significant as your obvious inability to correctly spell the name of perhaps the most brilliant man to have ever lived? See, unlike you, I don’t dwell too much on the errors of others. I certainly recognize them when they occur, but I knew whom you were referring to every time you misspelled that name. It didn’t bother me that much. Unlike you, I have my inclination towards OCD under control. Perhaps you should try medication. Here are some available options you might look into:

http://understanding_ocd.tripod.com/medication.html

My apologies for tying up your feeble, little mind with my flippant and inappropriate use of the question mark in unwarranted sentences. I’d much prefer your focus be on the content of my remarks. But if you feel you must, take the customary “minus two points” off my final grade, and let’s move on.

Here. Allow me to re-phrase, or as they say on Jeopardy, “state the answer in the form of a question.” It was:

>Why do you liberals make such a big deal out of having to tolerate "your enemies" voices on these bullplop propaganda wires?

There. Is that a question now? Now address that. Try to avoid searching for grammar errors and problems with sentence structure, and see if you can “understand” the gist of where I’m coming from.

>Now answer the questions. Are you the same Eric…

It’s always funny when you act like you don’t know me. You’d think you’d be able to recognize my persona by now, regardless of the moniker I use. After all, we’ve been corresponding for quite a long time. You’ve even sent me love letters via snail mail for G-d’s sake. I’d have thought you’d know everything about me by now Nessie. You’re not as attentive as you’d have us all believe, now are you?

The answer is yes. I am the same Eric to which you are referring. I certainly didn’t chortle at the death of David Mobilio. I never take pleasure in the death of another human being. To do so would be bad, bad, bad. I’m not a bad person, and therefore, by and of that fact, I’d never engage in such bad activities.

I merely pointed out to you and “the collective”, in my standard antithesis, antagonistic persona, that IMC could possible get into deep shit for the actions of Andy Mickel. That’s all.

And I was right too. I noticed a bit fear in your follow up comments during the aftermath. But you guys are handling it very well. Excellent continuance plan. Have to hand it to the collective! Bravo!

Distance yourselves as far as possible from this manic to avoid further implication. Great plan guys!

A NOTE TO ALL POTENTIAL IMC MILITANT ACTIVISTS:
They will prod you to action, and then disavow knowledge of you entirely. Make sure you re-read nessie’s post above (two up) before taking these jokers seriously.

>>>>>>>>>>>>snip>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Secondly, McCrae was not an “IMC militant.” That rant of his was the very first thing he ever posted here. We’ve never met the guy and neither have any of our friends. We have a lot of friends. They are distributed across the entire globe and are active in a wide variety of movements. If this guy was an activist, somebody we know would have heard of him. At best, he is a wannabe activist who doesn’t know how to go about it. At worst, he is a Manchurian Candidate. Either way, he’s not one of us.
We’re not even entirely sure McCrae actually posted that rant…
>>>>>>>>>>>>snip>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Your militant, activist, reactionary, so-called “friends” will turn their backs on you when your ass is on the line. This usually occurs just after you shift attention from “words” to “action”. These guys are Judas’ of the highest order.

Oh well. So much for the radicals.


by ...........
Tuesday Dec 10th, 2002 6:33 AM
"A NOTE TO ALL POTENTIAL IMC MILITANT ACTIVISTS:
They will prod you to action, and then disavow knowledge of you entirely."

Paranoia is an important symptom of dementia.

You say you are an ex-anarchist. Perhaps you were involved with some juveniles and you did something stupid that they did not approve of?
by Curt Cobain
Tuesday Dec 10th, 2002 6:45 AM
don't mean they're not after you.
by ............
Tuesday Dec 10th, 2002 6:49 AM
It doesn't mean you aren't demented, either.
by Eric
Tuesday Dec 10th, 2002 6:58 AM
It's rampant on indybay.org. Chicken Little and "the sky is falling" all over the place. We like dementia. Lunacy is our friend. Embrace the darkness and join the party.

It's fun. Really.

Pass the Absinthe and let's go make some hats Dorothy.
by .............
Tuesday Dec 10th, 2002 7:00 AM
Obviously you speak for yourself.
by Eric
Tuesday Dec 10th, 2002 7:09 AM
I mean, really. I'm trying here. So entertain me already. Don't just come back at me with hollow remarks. Put a little umph into it. I'm getting bored.

So entertain me already.
by ..............
Tuesday Dec 10th, 2002 7:17 AM
You seem to do a pretty good job entertaining yourself.
by Eric
Tuesday Dec 10th, 2002 7:24 AM
My life is so ... blah. Let's talk about you, my darling. Tell me about yourself. What do you do? Attachments? Romantic involvements? Do you prefer red or white wine? Dance the Cha-cha? Tango? Eat meat? Prefer hot or cold? Coke or Pepsi? Creamy or chunky?

Lighten up a bit my sweet. Take off your coat, relax and get comfortable. Now tell me darling, of you and yours...
by ............
Tuesday Dec 10th, 2002 8:23 AM
"My life is so ... blah."

Apparently so.
by Eric
Tuesday Dec 10th, 2002 8:27 AM
If so, then why are you here playing paddle-ball with me?
by ................
Tuesday Dec 10th, 2002 8:54 AM
How do you know I'm not you? Maybe you're just paddle-balling yourself.
by Eric
Tuesday Dec 10th, 2002 10:31 AM
Simple.

I'm not as boring as you are.
by Eric
Tuesday Dec 10th, 2002 11:57 AM
“Thinkos.” Interesting word. A “thinkographical” error. For instance “you being a liberal” is a “thinko”. Well, I suppose I could qualify that and call you what you like to be called. Left of liberal? Radical? Activist? Dissenter? Socialist? Anti-Americanist? Anarchist? Hell, I don’t know.

In my opinion, in America, these are all just liberals. Nothing more, nothing less. Insignificant, and without a prayer of ever achieving political realization in this country. Haven’t you heard? It’s a two-party system. Dissent all you like. The machine continues to function with, without, or in spite of, you.

I’m sure it’s entertaining and passes the time, to imagine that you are some sort of “unique” political specimen. But it’s not very practical. I prefer to play the game. To play the game you have to know the rules, or you have to be the one dictating the rules. That’s why I’d rather choose sides. There’s strength in numbers, and strength is power. Power is might, and power is what dictates the rules of the game.

Nothing says you have to be evil just because you are the one dictating the rules. That’s a gray area. Some will say you are, some will say you aren’t. Who care’s what either of them thinks? Not you. Not if you’re the one dictating the rules.

>That you noticed our fear in no way proves that we did get in trouble.

Never said you did. I said you possibly could. You didn’t commit a logical fallacy here. You’ve just been presumptuous. But that on par with your persona, so I won’t hold it against you.

>Cite a single example of our having ever prodded anyone to kill a cop. Go on. I dare you. Post the URL.
Who exactly shall I cite? You personally? Another member of the collective? Do you take responsibility for you website? What about the comments made by your readers?

I argue that “you” are negligent. Negligent in that you provoke hatred against police officers by posting articles such as:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/04/125023.php
http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/04/125020.php
http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/04/120270.php
http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/02/116392.php
http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/02/115304.php


(ad nauseam)

Negligent in that you post these blatant misrepresentations, disinformation, and propaganda in an attempts to incite militant action against the police (as well as the government, and even innocent people such as myself) simply because you don’t agree with the prevailing and predominant ideologies of America. You are not negligent because you’ve told people to go out and kill. Of course not. You couldn’t get away with that! On the contrary, you subvert any potential action against you by goose stepping around it. By hiding in the bush, like a terrorist cell, afraid of how things would work out it you really stepped up to the plate and announced to the world how you feel. Basking in the glory of the tremendous anonymity of the internet to conceal you. What a coward you are.

You are negligent because you condone violence by pandering to it, indirectly instigating it, and failing to silence it on your website.

I bet you don’t agree with that last one. I bet you think that it’s not your responsibility to filter out comments posted by your readers that might condone violence against the police. You think it’s freedom of speech. You’d argue that your readers should be allowed to write whatever.

But let’s explore that. Let’s say Joe Reader clicks on one of you anti-police articles, reads it and gets upset about it. He thinks “Michigan” or whatever *is* becoming a police state and it pisses him off. So he post’s:

“Fuck the cops. All fucking pigs must die.”

Would the collective allow that? Sure they would. It falls right in-line with their anti-police state agenda. Negligent.

Andrew Mickel comes along and reads it and poof. One cop dies.

But let’s get more extreme. What would you do if say, Joe Antiamerica comes along and posts:

“Fuck George Bush. That bastard must pay.”

Now we’re getting into a touchy area. You guys know damn well where the line is and you take it as close as possible to that line.

Certainly if someone comes along and threatens the life of a political official, say GWB for instance, you guys would be all over deleting that one. Don’t need that kink of attention do you? No, of course not.

>That wasn’t me. Look at the postmark.

Well whoever it was, it was nice of them to send me that five bucks. I thought about sending it to SF IMC. I mean this forum does provide me with a lot of entertainment. You liberals are a load of laughs. You know I wouldn’t hang around if you guys were boring.

But then I thought about all the truly “evil” things that have been said here. And the opportunistic things. The flag burning and the pedophile enabling. It turns my stomach. I mean, I’m as firm an advocate of free speech as you should ever want to meet in your life. But with power, comes responsibility. SF IMC is lacking tremendously in the responsibility department. You guys should really go out and hire some ethics majors or something and maybe a PR guy to handle things like this Andy Mickel ordeal. You guys really looked like shit on that one. Maybe clean things up a bit and I’d quit giving you such a hard time. Not that I expect you to. I guess you honestly think you’re handling things the right way. Seems pretty demented to me, but we all have our own skewed perceptions.

And finally…my life is just fine. It’s no more or less than that of anyone else’s. But thanks for reading my play posts with …………. He’s such a fun individual to chat with.
by cp
Tuesday Dec 10th, 2002 1:41 PM
<quote>But then I thought about all the truly “evil” things that have been said here. And the opportunistic things. The flag burning and the pedophile enabling. It turns my stomach. I mean, I’m as firm an advocate of free speech as you should ever want to meet in your life. But with power, comes responsibility. SF IMC is lacking tremendously in the responsibility department. You guys should really go out and hire some ethics majors or something and maybe a PR guy to handle things like this Andy Mickel ordeal. You guys really looked like shit on that one. Maybe clean things up a bit and I’d quit giving you such a hard time. <end quote>
----------------------------------
This would tend to indicate a significant level of cognitive dissonance. In this rest of sf-imc, right wingers keep harping on how indymedia keeps censoring them too much, even though hardly anything gets deleted except for spam, pornography, obvious reposts from major newspapers, and posts advocating genocide or racist violence.
From what you said above - you think that sf-imc has 'power'? What do you mean by that? Also, your entire comments indicates that you think that sf-imc actually writes the material that appears here? Why would sf-imc (which is basically a small group of editors and photographers and programmers) have 'responsibility' for the speech of others? Why don't people who write or say things have responsibility for the things they write all by themselves?
This isn't exactly a monitored AOL chatroom designed for 12 year olds. Do you ever visit any 'forum' or mailing list or chatroom type places on the rest of the WWW? Do you have an experience widely contrasting with everyone else in which you never encounter people swearing and making offensive statements? If you ever looked at 'usenet', you would find taht most of the content seems to be abusive argumentation, spam, and unmoderated rumor.
by Eric
Tuesday Dec 10th, 2002 2:20 PM
"even though hardly anything gets deleted except for spam, pornography, obvious reposts from major newspapers, and posts advocating genocide or racist violence. "

Bulldung. Read this and then scroll down (if they haven't censored it already):

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/12/1547127_comment.php#1549229

"you think that sf-imc has 'power'? "

We all have power. Most significantly, the power to persuade others to our ideals and beliefs. I don't consider sf imc as being powerful, but they are certainly a medium for communication of ideals and beliefs.

"Also, your entire comments indicates that you think that sf-imc actually writes the material that appears here? "

No it doesn't. And no I don't. They allow it to be disseminated on their nickel.

They censor the perspectives of some, and none of those of others. This action alone constitutes ownership of the materials and statements presented on their website.

"Why would sf-imc (which is basically a small group of editors and photographers and programmers) have 'responsibility' for the speech of others? "

Because the venomous material being disseminated on their nickel is provoking and/or catering to, violence. Case in point:

Andy Mickel killed a cop and posted the following:

>snip
Everyone!- Remember that the authorities will lie to you. They will try to make you distrust one another. Trust each other in spite of the disinformation they feed you. Don’t believe any rumors you hear until they are confirmed. Different views and different tactics are okay, but communicate with one another! Especially when you are two autonomous groups collaborating. Communicate and don’t believe rumors.
Communicate with the liberal press, and with ...

indymedia.


Manifest the World you want to live in!
Do this for yourselves.
If this be treason, make the most of it.

>snip

>Why don't people who write or say things have responsibility for the things they write all by themselves?

If I used you as a mouthpiece for my thoughts and beliefs, would you mind?

IMC does. For instance, if I came here and posted:

"Check out this cool new orgainzation I joined! SF IMC members are welcome to join too!"

and then posted the website for the American Christian Falangist Party, even as docile as that website may be, the so called "editors" here would censor you right out.

But they certainly don't mind being a mouthpiece for anti-american, anti-police, anti-corporate, or anti-government ideals.

"Do you ever visit any 'forum' or mailing list or chatroom type places on the rest of the WWW?"

yes.

>Do you have an experience widely contrasting with everyone else in which you never encounter people swearing and making offensive statements?

No, I blend right in where ever I go! And no one ever swears at me! I am your typical conformist. A "yes man". I fall right in-line, goose-step and boot-lick, and kiss butt all day and all night. My behavior right here on IMC is a testament to that fact.

No one said anything about "swearing" or "offensive statements" on IMC. Try again.

>If you ever looked at 'usenet', you would find taht most of the content seems to be abusive argumentation, spam, and unmoderated rumor.

Gee, I could make a few changes and re-phrase that sentence to describe IMC exactly:

If you ever looked at 'IMC', you would find that most of the content seems to be abusive argumentation, anti-American propaganda, and censored...errr...edited rumor.


by your father, aaron
Tuesday Dec 10th, 2002 4:37 PM
you should take your act to the insomnia ward -- i think you've developed a cure.

btw, how's the economic recovery coming along? are Bush's new appointments gonna be as befuddled and addled by ideology as the ones they replaced? let's hope so!
by Eric
Tuesday Dec 10th, 2002 4:49 PM
Well, the DOW was up yet *again* today, 100 points at 8574. More than a 1000 points up from when we were last debating this. My portfolio is looking good. My AT&T stock just split, and I got shares of the splinter AT&T/Comcast broadband, which are doing well. Thanks for asking dad.

How's the piano moving business?
by mike
Tuesday Dec 10th, 2002 6:59 PM
<Thanks for asking dad.>

Oh, and dad, thanks for getting that trust fund up and running for me; oh, and thanks for paying for my girlfriend's abortion before you went off to the Right to Life convention; and thanks also for letting your company's accountants "loan" me that $2 million which I'll be sure to pay back right away (wink wink); and thanks for getting me out of that little jam I was in over that tiny bit of cocaine; and Dad, thanks for raising me as a Republican; and teaching me the values of self-reliance and hard work; I agree that it's time those welfare receipients looked after themselves and stopped expecting somebody else to bail them out.

by Eric
Wednesday Dec 11th, 2002 7:09 AM
This is exactly what I’m talking about:

>That doesn’t mean they should kill them. Killing cops is a waste of time.

Statements like that, which you frequently make, trivialize hatred, violence, and even *murder* committed against the police. You know it. I know it. And anyone with an inking of intelligence knows it.

The problem is that there are a lot of idiots reading indybay.org that don't know it and with nothing better to do with their time.

Killing cops is not simply “a waste of time”. It’s murder.

What is a waste of time is to sit behind a keyboard and attempting to “fight the system” by pretending to be a pretentious anarchist.

>Of course I could get away with it.

I challenge you to try it. Just as an experiment. Let’s see what happens there, G. Gordon Nessie.

>You gotta be kidding, right? I’m telling the world how I feel right now.

You must feel awfully brave doing it too. You’re a hero. A legend in your own mind.

>Do you have any idea how many people will eventually read this? … You must know that. I can’t imagine a guy like you wasting all of those keystrokes on something only I and a handful of my friends would read.

Your ego is galactic. That’s the difference between you and I. Our motivations for doing this are completely different.

See, I could care less if *anyone* other than you ever reads this. When I write things here, it’s not because I have to, in order to promote my website.

I do it because I’m motivated by something *someone* says, or because I’m addressing *someone’s* position or opinion. The key word there is *someone*. The root word is *one*.

You on the other hand, have to post here because of ownership and ego. If my ego was a large as yours, I’d surround myself with people that would help me keep it inflated too. I certainly wouldn’t be pecking away at the keys for the benefit of IMC, unless of course, I was an insignificant liberal with a fat, high-maintenance ego.

No, I suspect very few will ever read our rants here. Perhaps just you and your “friends” at the collective will sit around on Thursday night at the “meeting” and read them aloud for shits and giggles, and that will be about it.

But that’s more than I would have ever needed to motivate me to type. See, I only need one person to read what I write. This time, it happens to be you. Don’t let me down, ok?

>You have your faults, but that stupid you’re not.

Thanks for the compliment. You’re absolutely right about that, and you’ll get no argument from me there.

>You condone violence buy paying taxes to support America’s imperialist aggression.

This isn’t about the faceless masses of starving African children or the multitudes of potential Iraqi citizen-casualties.

This is about David Mobilio. You shouldn’t trivialize a specific murder by obfuscating with generalities, ambiguities, conjecture, and opinion for opportunistic political gains. It’s rude.

>That’s right. We obey the law to the letter. Do you have a problem with that?

What are you saying here nessie? That you blatantly disregard your “journalistic” responsibilities of presenting unbiased facts to your readers, but as long as it’s legal then there’s no harm and no foul?

Legality is a matter for the courts to decide, and you guys are walking a fine line. Many, many publications have been sued and lost big time for presenting crap far more responsibly than you twerps have.

I imagine if you weren’t just a bunch of penniless lowlifes, somebody would have already had your asses in court.

But the laws are getting tighter. That's as a direct result of people like you and orgainzations like indybay.org who ignore their responsibilities and abuse their privileges. Yes, I said it. Privileges.

See it's only the right of people like you to spew venom in this country until people like me get fed up and enact laws to prevent it. That makes it a privilege. Sort of like having a drivers license.

The irony of the whole situation is that you liberals are undermining the exact same privileges you hope to protect. Funny, huh?

>That’s what the Nazis used to say, and the Bolsheviks, and the Romans and the the Sumerians before them.

The Romans enjoyed hundreds of years as the dominating force in the world and the Sumerians enjoyed nearly a thousand. Frankly, I don’t see the US losing it’s world dominance anytime in the foreseeable future. But feel free to let know if I’m wrong.

>It might outlive me, but it wont out live history.

Oh it will definitely outlive you. It will outlive me. It’ll outlive my children and my children’s children. Probably there’s too. After that, it won’t much matter. I’ll be long since forgotten. So will you.

Hopefully by then, something better will have come along to replace it. I imagine it’ll be much the same thing as it is here, but on a global scale. Maybe those starving African children will be able to get a meal. Perhaps the Iraqis will be free and able to express themselves without the fist of a despotic regime cracking the whip.

I’d like to imagine things are getting better and not worse. I look to history for proof of that.

I mean just look at the Nazis, the Bolsheviks, Romans and Sumerians. They all went the way of the dinosaur and got replaced by something better. Yes, better.

Nobody is forcing me to build him a statue to honor him, or to work by beating me with a whip or at gunpoint. I get enough to eat and have a nice place to live. 20 years ago, all I had was a room in my parent’s house, and they never gave me a thing after I left home.

You can’t fool me. I’m a walking, breathing, living testament that the system works, provided you “work the system”.

I imagine that you are too, when it comes right down to the nitty-gritty.

>has just demolished your arguement, eric.

Go ahead and bolster his ego. Prop up each other's feebleness. Whisper sweet nothings in each others ears and reassure each other that you'll each be there at the his beckon call.

But don't forget to deny each other before the cock has crowed thrice, after the signal for action is given. You don't want to be implicated in something like what good old "Andy" did. No, no, of course not. Killing cops is merely a wast of time. Andy's efforts were simply an excercise in futility. No need to waste precious time, now is there?

My arguments stand in and of themselves. The proof is in the pudding. The system stands and your ideologies are simply that. Unimplemented, unrealized, and unrecognized by the people. Essentially, worthless.

Type all day long. At the end of the day, I’m still winning and you’re still losing.

by nl
Wednesday Dec 11th, 2002 8:17 AM
In order for there to be a decline, SF-IMC must first ascend. While the leftist and anarchists do provide a lot of hot air, the truth with the big needle keeps popping the balloon.
by ...........
Wednesday Dec 11th, 2002 9:43 AM
"Oh, my bad, despite being a life long left y, I am a right wing disrupter because I oppose Zionist crimes throughout the world."

Hardly. You want no one to be able to distinguish Jews from Zionists so you can promote your freakish little marginalized neo-nazi agenda.
It's not working. I don't see the Internet 'ablaze' with condemnation of the 'Jews' though there is alot of criticism of Israel and Zionism. Maybe you should stop spending all your time on white supremacist sites. They're vocal, but nonetheless, a tiny fraction of the online debate.
by Bostich
Wednesday Dec 11th, 2002 11:26 AM
I noticed these little truffles of contrasting ironic statements in nessie's above post.

>I’m a journalist. I would be negligent to *not* tell the truth, especially if I did so to protect criminals whose depredations are committed under color of law.

>That’s right. We obey the law to the letter. Do you have a problem with that? The police don’t.

Funny how the pot always like calling the kettle "black", isn't it?

by ...............
Wednesday Dec 11th, 2002 12:18 PM
What makes you think cops prevent riots? Last time there was a really big one nearby ( i.e. in LA), it was BECAUSE of the cops !
by Eric
Wednesday Dec 11th, 2002 12:29 PM
There's screwed up liberal thinking for you. Idiots get mad because they don't like something the cops did, use it as an excuse to go out, vandalize, steal, injure, and kill...

then the liberals blame the cops.

I don't like your last post. Would you mind if me and my friends come over to your house, beat you up, trash your car, raped your wife, raid your refrigerator, and then blame the whole thing on you for posting that stupid comment?
by one of the editors
Wednesday Dec 11th, 2002 12:56 PM
The posts entitled “Yeah, not a good idea.” and “Check out the real world Chuck 0” were removed because they were racist propaganda. Racist propaganda is not allowed here. Take that crap elsewhere. And yeah, anti-Semitism is racism. It’s no worse than any other kind of racism, but it’s no better either.

Pretending to be a leftist while you mouth this crap doesn’t float, either. So bug off.
by arf
Wednesday Dec 11th, 2002 1:17 PM
You haven't seen .........'s wife, have you? Better to shave his dogs butt and teach it to walk backwards.
by Scotch
Wednesday Dec 11th, 2002 1:30 PM
Mr. Editor:

Why do you guys get so upset when someone uses the N-word but it's perfectly acceptable for me to post something like...

"all fucking cops must die"

hmm?

Hate speech is hate speech, isn't it?
by pigs out
Wednesday Dec 11th, 2002 1:36 PM
I have always looked at any pig or anyone who
works for this system (such as pig departments,
Department of Corrections, military, etc.) as my
enemy and looked upon them with total and
complete disrespect.

Lately, several things have been going on that
have caught my attention. I have been reading in
bourgeois newspapers about how the U.S. government
has been putting out a campaign to get young
people and other people to join its military and
pig forces by offering to pay for college
education and other shit. The other day, I read in
a newspaper ad put out by the neo-racist Indiana
Department of Corruption about how if a person
would become a prison pig for two years, the DOC
would pay that person's college tuition, etc.

I didn't really pay too much attention at first to
those ads of deceit. But then someone who I am
really close to and love very much laid up and
joined the army of this neo-fascist government.
This threw me all off of my square. Cuz I have a
loyalty to the struggle for revolution, but I also
love my family. When I asked why, I was told that
she joined the army (of our enemy) cuz she needed
to pay for her college and had nothing to fall
back on, and that she needed money to support
herself, etc.

What could I say? Many times I have heard that
line said by a lot of pigs who work for these
death camps. That they are only working for these
death camps cuz they need the work to put food on
the table for their families, etc. And I have
always blown it off as bullshit excuses, but this
act committed by this person whom I love and care
for has forced me to take a serious look at what
I've so long considered "bullshit excuses." And
this disturbs me a lot!

This is something about which I need feedback and
which is a reactionary tactic put down by this
united snakes government to draw unconscious
people into its trap. I feel that this needs to be
seriously brought to light. How is this to be
dealt with? I've had to face reality that people
need to survive and to support themselves, and the
only way that they are going to do that is if they
have a steady income to bring in. And because of
the way this system is set up, the only way for
them to do that is either have a job or do
something else to make money. And there are barely
any jobs out there, and here we have the beast,
amerikkka, offering to pay for these people's
college and other stuff. Anyone out there who is
unconscious is gonna grab at that.

What is to be expected of people who are scraping
to survive and sees a chance of making better for
himself/herself? This needs to seriously be
addressed, cuz at this rate, by the year 2000, the
pig system will have nearly everyone in its trap,
and this needs to be countered by political-
progressives.

I've had pigs come up to me alone and ask for me
to at least look at them as a human. I've had this
one female pig tell me she thinks she treats
everyone with kindness and respect, and that she
does what she does (as in finding people guilty of
write-ups, etc.) cuz if she doesn't, she'll lose
her job, etc. And a lot of times, I want to smack
them for being so stupid and trying to feed me a
line of bullshit, but now that a loved one has
also fallen into the enemy's ranks, I've had to
think and try to do a self-analysis concerning
this.

I refuse to betray the struggle, but I ask myself
how do I look at these people, are these people
guilty of siding with the enemy in the enemy's
campaign to forever oppress all people and
therefore to be brought to revolutionary justice;
or are these people just guilty of being
unconscious and falling for a trap in their
struggle to survive and support themselves.
by rex
Wednesday Dec 11th, 2002 1:48 PM
you should move to Iraq. Or China. Possibly North Korea.

Spoiled little rebellious liberal bitches make me wanna blow my lunch.
by .............
Wednesday Dec 11th, 2002 2:20 PM
"There's screwed up liberal thinking for you. Idiots get mad because they don't like something the cops did, use it as an excuse to go out, vandalize, steal, injure, and kill...
then the liberals blame the cops.
I don't like your last post. Would you mind if me and my friends come over to your house, beat you up, trash your car, raped your wife, raid your refrigerator, and then blame the whole thing on you for posting that stupid comment?"

Sorry, Eric, but can you show me where the LA riots were because of a police comment? Last I heard they were because of a beating and a long history of unfair treatment of minorities ....
I'm waiting for you to show me even the flimsiest of evidence that the LA Riots started over just a comment.
Not holding my breath, though ROFLMAO
by you don't say
Wednesday Dec 11th, 2002 2:28 PM
Sure they did. The jury "commented" that the police were not guilty and some fine upstanding citizens from South Central didn't like the "comment". So they did what many of their ancestors of the Moteassir, Hodedor, and Moanback tribes did and rioted.
by .............
Wednesday Dec 11th, 2002 2:37 PM
Sorry. A court verdict is not a comment. It is a ruling. I'm still waiting.
by fuck bigots
Wednesday Dec 11th, 2002 2:39 PM
>Why do you guys get so upset when someone uses the N-word but it's perfectly acceptable for me to post something like...

>"all fucking cops must die"

>hmm?

>Hate speech is hate speech, isn't it?


Big diff. You're born African American or Hispanic or Gay or whatever. You CHOOSE to become a cop.
by Eric
Wednesday Dec 11th, 2002 2:55 PM
"Eric, but can you show me where the LA riots were because of a police comment? ... I'm waiting for you to show me even the flimsiest of evidence that the LA Riots started over just a comment."

Well someone before me showed you "the flimsiest evidence", as you so eloquently put it, by relating the jury verdict to a comment, and you didn't like that "flimsy evidence apparently. So why should I bother?

I'll make you a deal. I'll provide you with the evidence you are asking for, if you'll show me where I said that ANY riot started because of a "comment" made by ANYONE ever (police or otherwise) .

Not holding my breath, though ROFLMAO!
by Eric
Wednesday Dec 11th, 2002 2:57 PM
ROFLMAO at that one too!!!!!

Let's see some documented evidence on that!
by .............
Wednesday Dec 11th, 2002 3:16 PM
Eric:

You compared the LA riots to :

"Would you mind if me and my friends come over to your house, beat you up, trash your car, raped your wife, raid your refrigerator, and then blame the whole thing on you for posting that stupid comment?"

Which is your exact quote.
This is called an 'analogy', remember Grade 4 English class?
by mike
Wednesday Dec 11th, 2002 3:34 PM
<"Would you mind if me and my friends come over to your house, beat you up, trash your car, raped your wife, raid your refrigerator, and then blame the whole thing on you for posting that stupid comment?">

Sounds like a good metaphor for Republican economic policies.

Actually, sounds like an average weekend at Trent Lott's college fraternity, which, i'm willing to bet, was disproportionately white in its racial make-up. Just a hunch.

TRENT LOTT ROCKS!!! KEEP SPEAKING YOUR MIND, TRENT!!! WE LOVE IT!!!
by aaron
Wednesday Dec 11th, 2002 3:45 PM
Conservatives claim that the American system works because of the "free market"--that with hard work anyone can succeed, pull themselves up by their boot-straps, etc etc. In an earlier post Eric (unsolicitedly) offers that he's living testiment that this is so. The funny thing is that Eric, by his own admission, got to where he's at through connections he made in the US military. Is the US military a free market organization Eric? No, it's one of the biggest government run welfare programs in the history of the world--the only pre-requirement for entry, besides dull-normal intelligence, is that one check their conscience at the door. Eric, being smarter than your average military type and eager to please his superiors, ascended in rank and was positioned to avail himself of job offers in security for Americans abroad (or so he says). I'd be curious to know more about your (new?) line of work, Eric.

Having made some extra change protecting US imperial interests, now invests in equities markets in his spare time. Eric has even conceded that this form of money-making is parasitic, but that doesn't stop him, apparently. Indeed, he equates his own success as a equities speculator with the success of the system as a whole.

Talk about chutzpah.



Having made
by aaron
Wednesday Dec 11th, 2002 7:14 PM
I'll support the cops when they strike against:

-- rousting homeless people
-- breaking strikes
-- performing evictions
-- busting street demonstrations
-- corruption and brutality within their own ranks

Short of this, I can't imagine supporting any police union.
And should "your day" come, which I doubt, then it will also go, as have all the others. And one day history will look back on "your day" and note it was one of unspeakable barbarity whose passing only the twisted, sick and evil mourn. And time will pass on. And so it goes.
by ...............
Wednesday Dec 11th, 2002 8:22 PM
This is a Grade 4 English lesson for you, Eric. Take it to heart. You're lucky. It's free tutoring.


Me: "You compared the LA riots to :

"Would you mind if me and my friends come over to your house, beat you up, trash your car, raped your wife, raid your refrigerator, and then blame the whole thing on you for posting that stupid comment?"

Which is your exact quote.
This is called an 'analogy',"

Your response: "No. It was a 'hyperbole'. "

I will now demonstrate why I doubt you have passed Grade 4 English.

Hyperbole, Eric, means exaggeration:

"hy•per•bo•le

Pronunciation: (hI-pûr'bu-lE), [key]
—n. Rhet.
1. obvious and intentional exaggeration."


What you were doing was a comparison. A form of comparison known as an *analogy*.

"













Almanacs Atlas Dictionary Encyclopedia

December 11, 2002

Dictionary
a•nal•o•gy


Pronunciation: (u-nal'u-jE), [key]
—n.,
—pl. -gies.
1. a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump.
2. similarity or comparability: I see no analogy between your problem and mine.
3. Biol.an analogous relationship.
4. Ling.
a. the process by which words or phrases are created or re-formed according to existing patterns in the language, as when shoon was re-formed as shoes, when -ize is added to nouns like winter to form verbs, or when a child says foots for feet.
b. a form resulting from such a process.
5. Logic.a form of reasoning in which one thing is inferred to be similar to another thing in a certain respect, on the basis of the known similarity between the things in other respects."



Grade 4 English lesson over.

by mercenary for 1
Wednesday Dec 11th, 2002 8:23 PM
"You do more to convince the world that I’m right than just about anything I could ever say on my own."

It's what's got the movement the trillions upon trillions of followers they have today.

"....convince the world that I’m right...."

HAHAHAHA!!!! Hey, at least you're good for a laugh. I'd keep you around if for no other reason than that. Oh, and the thing where we don't know history. Another good laugh. Damn, I wish I could live on Planet Delusion with you, but Earth will have to do.

nes, I'll miss ya when you're gone!
by pointer
Wednesday Dec 11th, 2002 11:09 PM
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-ridicule.html

(snip)

. . . mocking a claim does not show that it is false. This is especially clear in the following example: "1+1=2! That's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard!"

(snip)
by Eric
Thursday Dec 12th, 2002 5:07 AM
No I didn't. Prove it.
by me bub
Thursday Dec 12th, 2002 6:48 AM
"And should "your day" come, which I doubt, then it will also go, as have all the others. And one day history will look back on "your day" and ... mourn. And time will pass on. And so it goes."

nessie spends his whole life fighting for the cause of "anarchy" and what happens when it is finally achieved? What then? Do we all live in bliss for eternity? Does civiliztion self destruct? Does anarchy come and go, like all other social/political structures before it?

What exactly is nessie fighting for anyway?


by Eric
Thursday Dec 12th, 2002 6:56 AM
This is what I'm talking about. If you're gonna be a liberal, at least put you heart in it like this guy does. This poem says a lot...

I Am a Fascist

I thought I was a liberal, once a communist even,
Sometimes a Taoist or a Buddhist, often an existentialist,
But now I must admit that I am a fascist--
Part of a group which I profess to hate.
And I am a conservative, a Christian fundamentalist, a neo-Nazi
A Stalinist, a Muslim terrorist and an agent of the CIA.
I am all the wicked things that I do not fight against.
And I am all of the evils I have not defeated yet--
Those defects in myself, in others, in my society and in every other.
I am all men and so I am fully implicated in all men's crimes.
I have failed, first, to perfect myself. I have failed, second,
To push all other beings in a positive direction
Through education, legislation, demonstration and/or revolution.
Society's failures are my own and,
As a result of my not having cured its ills,
I am fated to be re-infected by it at best
Or completely reformulated by it at worst.
I am a criminal for just existing when I know that
Any crime is being committed anywhere
(Not crimes against law, but real crimes AGAINST life).
I am a collaborator when I am not resisting
With the full weight of my mind, body and soul.
I must fight with every breath I breathe,
Using every precious second of time
During which I have been graced to live,
Utilizing every skill, and contributing every energy I have
To push society toward the truth
As I know it, feel it, and believe it.
Otherwise, my life is just another lie
Added to this growing pile of filth.

Talk is so much more comfortable than bleeding,
So give me the fascist salute as I saunter by
On my way to the next poetry reading
Past the ghettos and the beggars, the ignorant,
The hungry, the violent, the misguided, the perpetrators,
The anti-democratic, the fooled and fucked,
The abused, the living dead, the human waste,
The mortal cogs and angelic slugs.
For I am the best reflection of this world
And it is the truest reflection of me--UGLY.
I am fascist. I am bankrupt. I am guilty.
Please hunt me down and kill me--
Tenderly.

http://members.aol.com/mediaw0rks/fascist.html

by Heike
Thursday Dec 12th, 2002 8:04 AM
Hey,
Are some of you aware of 'blogs'? If not, they may be what you're searching for in terms of discussing current events with other members of the community, and perhaps inappropriately using sf.indymedia weBlogs are often maintained by one individual, but they very commonly allow any reader to comment on the list of most recent topics and a dialogue starts to take place. Also, weblogs of a certain topic almost always tend to link to other related blogs, so quite a large community develops where people may attempt to influence each other.
For instance, here is a Berkeley blog through which you can learn a lot of local information and chat and get to meet others: http://www.angryclam.blogspot.com/

The reason I suggest this is that although there is plenty of space on the internet, and there are numerous lists and community type areas like blogs, indymedia was designed to be more of a central meeting space that many people can use to get independent news reporting. I admit, that I succumb to the knee jerk impulse to respond to every stupid comment on here, however, commenting on indymedia should really be higher quality developed thoughts- akin to letters to the editor that respond to the original newswire item. The collective wouldn't have set up the newswire this way if they didn't want discussion to take place, but imagine what this place would look like if every reader wrote more than 5 comments per day that didn't introduce any new 'news'.
by mike
Thursday Dec 12th, 2002 8:31 AM
oh, chill out! "independent news reporting" is available from a multitude of left sites as well. we're all just having fun here while we advance the cause of the true, the left and the beautiful (i'm all three, you should know, and I like poetry and quiet walks on the beach) by beating up on human punching bags like Eric the Unctuous and the LonePsycho.


by anarchist
Thursday Dec 12th, 2002 9:00 AM
Anarchy is not "achieved." It is used. It is not a place to get to, or even a path to where we want to get to. It is a way to trod that path, a process by which we progress. It's not something people do, but a way that things are done. It is not an end in itself, or even a means to an end. It is a means to a means. There is no end. Anarchy doesn't mean no government. It means self government. It doesn't mean out of control, it means out of *thier* control. There is no time "after the revolution." Revolution never ends.
by The Man With The Big &quot;S&quot; On His Che
Thursday Dec 12th, 2002 9:12 AM
"commenting on indymedia should really be higher quality developed thoughts- akin to letters to the editor that respond to the original newswire item."

AMEN!!!! The editors at sf-imc want to cut down on all the chatter and so forth they dislike appearing on here, just encourage everyone to follow the above rule. All the spam and crap back and forth starts when someone makes a comment and then someone else doesn't like what was said, and says "you're stupid......", and then the other person reacts back, and you get these strings of dumb stuff. If everyone would just react to the original topic and provide their thoughts, and if someone says something you don't like in another post you would just ignore it, then you wouldn't have all this back and forth junk. Just make your point clear enough so that any following posts cannot make void what you just said. Course, some of you make get into that, which is fine I guess. But then you get into these comments that are 60-80-100-200 comments long that end up being a bunch of one-ups testosterone matches. Whoop-de-doo!!
by captain crunch
Thursday Dec 12th, 2002 9:19 AM
Solutionman's whole comment is a comment on a comment. And this comment is a comment on his comment on a comment.
by mike
Thursday Dec 12th, 2002 9:19 AM
<All the spam and crap back and forth starts when someone makes a comment and then someone else doesn't like what was said, and says "you're stupid......", and then the other person reacts back, and you get these strings of dumb stuff.>

you say it like it's a negative thing.
Websters

anarchism - the theory that all forms of government interfere unjustly with individual liberty and are therefore undesirable.

-------------------

If all forms of government are "undesirable", that would include "self government".
by mike
Thursday Dec 12th, 2002 9:24 AM
<Solutionman's whole comment is a comment on a comment. And this comment is a comment on his comment on a comment.>

let me comment on that. i think your comment on his comment doesn't accurately reflect the comment i made before his comment interrupted your comment. I think we should do what Trent Lott does: just make the same comment once every twenty two years and hope no one notices.

by aaron
Thursday Dec 12th, 2002 9:38 AM
It's fun to pick on Eric because unlike most of the rightists he's not a complete brick-head. Smash, I'll agree, is smart and sometimes pretty entertaining, especially his songs, but he's a sociopath and incapable of dialogue. Anyway...

Eric, you employ your favorite quadrosyllabic word to describe my characterization of your ascendance in (war-mongering, imperialist, avaricious...) America. But I got all this info from you. You've said you were in the military. You've said that you landed your current job with help from the military. You admitted, in your jocular way, that your speculating is parasitic. See below, from the "Hate Radio" thread:

by Eric • Thursday November 21, 2002 at 09:20 AM
My stocks are blistering through the roof today! As they say in the business, "We've got some green on the screen!"

add your comments
ho ho ho
by aaron • Thursday November 21, 2002 at 09:31 AM

you're nothing but a parasite eric.

add your comments
Maybe, but the only differences between me and you...
by Eric • Thursday November 21, 2002 at 09:47 AM

is that I’m an optimistic parasite that is quite content with my host. You are pessimistic one that despises the host from which you leach. Other than that, we are peas in pod dear eggy!

(to which I say that I’m pleased that he’s made his admission of parasitism, but given that I work as a piano mover, writing tutor, and disabled attendant, I’m unwilling to join in. In response, Eric doesn’t bother insisting that I’m a parasite, but instead shifts gears and emphasizes his “present work”, which he contends creates value. Eric doesn’t defend equities trading on these same grounds, nor does he dispute my contention that such activity is parasitic.)

add your comments

by Eric • Saturday November 23, 2002 at 08:33 AM
I'm not an equities trader by profession. It's merely a hobby that I dabble in. My present work is as a technical security engineer for an international contractor. My previous career in the military suitably prepared me for what I do now. I design and implement security systems utilized to protect Americans abroad. I won't get into specifics, since much of what I do is classified, suffice it to say that I feel as if my work creates value too.....


The only question I guess I have now, Eric, is what were the connections, if any, that landed you your present job? Are you currently working for the government, contracted through a "private" firm?

Last thing: sure, people in the military are expected to "work". Same is true increasingly for people on welfare for the poor. My point, though, was that the milirary is a massively subsidized government entity, a fact you can't deny.
by Gorgeous George
Thursday Dec 12th, 2002 9:40 AM
>>the true, the left and the beautiful<<

Impossible!

You can be "true" and "beautiful".
You CAN'T be "true" and "left".
You CAN'T be "left" and "beautiful".
You CAN'T be "true" and "left" and "beautiful".

Example:

mike claims he's all three. But he lied. So see, he wasn't "true", he is "left" (by evidence of the lieing part), and he isn't beautiul because beautiful people wouldn't lie.

Another peice of evidence:

Hhthtlw. Seals the deal.
by fishnbarrel
Thursday Dec 12th, 2002 9:50 AM
Who cares if you think it's parasitic. I know I don't. My guess is Eric doesn't either. I would never judge myself by what you or any number of people on here think. "Oh, the people on indybay think I'm a parasite. Oh BOO HOO HOO!!!!" Oh yeah, my life revolves around answering every little bit of disinformation on indybay or trying to make a bunch of anti-capitalist like me. Geez.

If you ain't on here to laugh at and make inflammatory comments to all the left-wing and anarchist kooks, you're here for the wrong reason.
by amindisaterriblething
Thursday Dec 12th, 2002 10:05 AM
>>>You've said that you landed your current job with help from the military.

No he didn't. He said:

>>My previous career in the military suitably prepared me for what I do now.

"PREPARED". Like going from K-12 PREPARES you for the next step. "Help from the military" would mean that the military had a job lined up for him after he was discharged, and they didn't.

>I work as a piano mover, writing tutor, and disabled attendant

A "writing tutor" who doesn't have comprehension skills? Oh, lucky students.
by Eric
Thursday Dec 12th, 2002 10:13 AM
See: fishnbarrel. He summed it up better than I could.

and on:

>"Eric, by his own admission, got to where he's at through connections he made in the US military."

See:

>"My previous career in the military suitably prepared me for what I do now."

key words: "suitably prepared". Never said anything about "connections."

Do you know anyone wanting to sell a good piano by chance? I'm in the market.

by debate coach
Thursday Dec 12th, 2002 10:42 AM
This is debate, It's *supposed* to go back and forth. That's how debate works.
by aaron
Thursday Dec 12th, 2002 11:43 PM
I spoke sloppily in the above post when I said that Eric’s connections in the military got him his present job. I wasn't meaning to say that his entry into the world of super-classified high-stakes security was corrupt in any formal sense. That wasn't my point, and I kick myself for being imprecise. I don't know what the circumstances were that landed Eric a job after his stint in the military. What I do know is that Eric prides himself as a self-made vindication of the system, and as a rightist, he attributes America's, and therefore his, "success" on "private enterprise" and the market. But: Eric, himself, was helped (or "suitably prepared") by the largest government run project known to human kind to do what he now does. With government assistance -- which I suspect isn’t analogous to the average American K-12 public schoolers’ experience, as “Fishnbarrel” suggests -- Eric was in a position to get a spy job abroad, allowing him to “dabble” in equities trading in his spare time.

“Fishnbarrel” claims, as if he knows, that Eric wasn’t set-up for a job by the military. Maybe, maybe not. Nepotism can operate at several degrees of separation. Clearly, Eric knew someone somewhere that knew that he was “suitably prepared” for, and pre-disposed to embrace, such work. I completely disagree with Eric politically on just about every topic (accept for gun control, perhaps), but I will grant that he’s a smart guy. He’s also gung-ho as shit. It is such people that succeed in the military, rise in the ranks, and are then positioned to avail themselves of other opportunities in related areas.

Every system has its (often quite competent) gung-ho yes-men. Every system has cold-blooded people like Eric who succeed. While Eric would like to present his experience as evidence that the US system "works", closer inspection suggests otherwise.
by ............
Thursday Dec 12th, 2002 11:50 PM
Alot of these trolls - who seem to spend an exorbitant amount of time blathering and whining here endlessly - seem to claim these prestigious jobs. STL was supposedly a nationally admired 'writer' with piles of money and a small palace of an apartment in Manhattan. Then there is Eric with his claims of being some sort of superspy extraordinaire.
All these individuals often speak as if they were running the country.
Delusions of grandeur, perhaps?
May I be forgiven for being skeptical, to say the least?
by who knows
Thursday Dec 12th, 2002 11:52 PM
writing under different names.
by aaron
Friday Dec 13th, 2002 12:40 AM
In the above post I meant to attribute to "amind..", not "fishnbarrel".
by Eric
Friday Dec 13th, 2002 6:03 AM
> I spoke sloppily in the above post when I said<

That was my point exactly. Thank you for conceding that, and try to be more careful in the future.

> he attributes America's, and therefore his, "success" on "private enterprise" and the market.<

Small parts of the overall equation. You’re reading far into my writings than I’ve EVER scribbled.

>("suitably prepared") by the largest government run project known to human kind to do what he now does. With government assistance…<

and hence, the system does work, provided you “work” the system.

I wouldn’t trade my military career for anything in the world. I got a lot out of it. I’m still getting a lot from those experiences. It’s certainly not a job that’s for everyone. And I’d like to thank the taxpayers. They make it all possible. Without you, I’d not be where I am today!

> Eric was in a position to get a spy job abroad<

Bordering on sloppy writing again. I’m not exactly a spy. And if I were a spy, I certainly wouldn’t expect that I’d have been such a stupid one to post my occupation on the internet. Of course not.

But that’s what I love about you liberals. I can feed you a line, and you’ll run with it. Let your imaginations carry you away.

No, no. For the record, I am not “a spy”. I provide security to Americans abroad. Technical and physical security. Primarily for dignitaries and diplomats. But there are many levels at which I function in my work. But I’m not a spy. Although, I will say that I know a few. That’s why I laugh so hard at you conspiracists and paranoid anarchists/liberals. You’re pretty far off in your guesswork, and pretty dissociated from reality. But enough about work.

> Clearly, Eric knew someone somewhere that knew that he was “suitably prepared”<

Liberals are so assuming, aren’t they?

> but I will grant that he’s a smart guy.<

Thank you arron. You’re no bag of rocks yourself.

> Every system has cold-blooded people like Eric<

Oh now that hurt. You don’t really think me cold-blooded now do you? Oh BOO HOO HOO!!! (Sorry fishnbarrel. I just liked that one too much to resist borrowing it.)

>Then there is Eric with his claims of being some sort of superspy extraordinaire.<

Imaginations at work. It’s a beautiful thing to see a human brain crafting toil, like a spider weaving it’s web. I really have an immense appreciation for the beautiful of imaginativeness.

> Maybe they are all the same person

No. Not the same. His writing is far better than mine. I’d actually like to read some more of his work. His email address is on his website. Maybe I’ll email him. Maybe he’ll come here and direct us to where we can all go and read more. But I imagine the collective would axe his post in quick succession.

STL is an unperson around here. Big Brother says, “He never existed”. He’s been vaporized, Orwellian style. Such is the consequence of speaking out against the “collective”. But they can’t fool us. We remember him. They remember him. He was a martyr.

I’m probably next.
by ful
Friday Dec 13th, 2002 9:38 AM
"He’s also gung-ho as shit. It is such people that succeed in the military, rise in the ranks, and are then positioned to avail themselves of other opportunities in related areas."

Why such fancy talk? Who doesn't do something similar?

- I went to college to study mechanical engineering, succeeded in graduating, and am now in a position to avail myself of opportunities that lie in that field of expertise.

- I went to college to study nursing, succeeded in graduating, and am now in a position to avail myself of opportunities that lie in that field of expertise.

- I went to technical school to study auto mechanics and am now in a position to avail myself of opportunities that lie in that field of expertise.

Com'n aaron, who doesn't avail themselves of chances to learn in order to obtain skills? If you're going to be a piano mover, learn all you can about it and then do your very best when it comes time to step up to the plate. That's called being successful.

"Clearly, Eric knew someone somewhere that knew that he was “suitably prepared” for, and pre-disposed to embrace, such work."

Oh yeah, when I got out of college I can't tell you the number of employers who had been keeping tabs on me and were just jumping at the bit to hire me. Bet Eric had the same problem when coming out of the military. In fact, they all wanted me to skip the lower and middle stuff and go right to the top. My own office with a view, two really hot secretaries, three hour lunches, expensive sports cars, yachts, my own plane, keys to the executive washroom, seven figure salary, etc.... Hey, as long as you're going to believe the fantasy, might as well make it a good one.

I'm not just talking to aaron here, bunches of you do exactly like Eric says, which is taking "a line, and you’ll run with it. Let your imaginations carry you away." How many times have I and others read things like "Are you saying blah blah blah? Because if you are, then blah blah blah ..............", and then you type a 30 minute diatribe about something you're "guessing" they meant. How bout going "What did you mean by that?" Save yourself some time.
by aaron
Saturday Dec 14th, 2002 10:47 AM
So, Eric, how would you ID yourself politically? All I've ever heard from you is lock-step right-wing conservativism. (Shit, you can't even bring yourself to criticize "Smash"!) That being the case, I assumed that you plead allegiance to the bedrock tropes of that creed: "private enterprise", the "free market" etc etc. If you'd prefer to be referred to as a right-wing statist -- and explicitly dispense with all that pseudo-libertarian jive about "small government" -- I woudn't have grounds to accuse you of hypocracy or logical inconsistency (on this score, at least).

As regards to political identification, you continue to refer to me as a liberal. Whatever, I'll live. But as I pointed out in a previous thread, you -- yes, you, Eric -- have far more in common with a liberal, like, say, Clinton, than I do: Support for "free trade", the death penalty, cutbacks for the poor, military adventurism, expansion in police powers etc etc. The fact that the term 'liberal' is applied (by right-wing statists like you) to everyone to the left of Rush Limbaugh renders it meaningless, both as an analytic device, and as an epithet. If you're not going to speak with precision, or in a way that elucidates, why bother speaking at all?
I ask that sincerely.

As to your job status: You have said your work is classified; that you design security system's for Americans abroad; that you'd have to kill me if you divulged information about your job to me; that you have friends that are spies -- YET to call you a spy is an example of a horribly over-fevered imagination. This coming from someone who thinks that the US should wage global war because a band of crack-pots (associated with a former ally) penetrated US air-space!

"But I’m not a spy. Although, I will say that I know a few. That’s why I laugh so hard at you conspiracists and paranoid anarchists/liberals. You’re pretty far off in your guesswork, and pretty dissociated from reality."

What "guesswork" are you referring to Eric? You sound like you're at command-and-control. You're not a spy, but spies confide in you? What does that make you Eric?

"You don’t really think me cold-blooded now do you? Oh BOO HOO HOO!!!"

I've yet to be given reason to believe that you're not cold-blooded. The above response tends to confirm this impression.


by well
Saturday Dec 14th, 2002 11:09 AM
Eric Browning wont tell you where he works since he wants to keep some anonymity. After all he probally would be pretty embarrsed if people who knew him read all the shit he posts here.

He posts all day long so I would guess Eric is now retired. SInce hes online most of the day he cant have been too rich (or he would have money to do something else with his life) so Id guess he had an average midedle class probably middle management job that left him just enough money to have something to put into the stock market after he retired....

If you are paranoid at all about Eric posting here remember he spent all day posting to a right wing site before he found this site
http://216.239.33.100/search?q=cache:9SyKl2TZgwoC:www2.bestofberkeley.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000564.html+berkeley+Eric+Smash&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Hmm maybe this is him?

http://www.angelfire.com/il/EricBrowning/running.html
A couple pics on the site have been posted here but its hard to picture Eric as a hippie

But Eric has responded to that charge already.
How believable is his response after talking about bringing down Indymedia on the cop shooting thread??

Paranoia will destroy ya
by Eric • Sunday June 02, 2002 at 05:33 PM

ok, just to clarify. The guy that posted on the "Best of Berkeley" message board named Eric Browning is not me. I have never posted there under the name Eric and nobody is hell bent on bringing down Indybay. If you haven't figured it out, JoJo, Smashy and myself enjoy coming here and stirring up you fragile souls. And that's about it. We're nothing more than your antithesis. So get a life and quit with the libel.
by Eric
Monday Dec 16th, 2002 5:40 AM
Eric Browning.

retired.

(nor ever was) a hippie.

a regular at the Best of Berkeley "right wing website".

dumb enough to post his own picture on the internet.

hell bent on bringing down imc.


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