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Indybay Feature

SF-IMC Are Now Hiding Comments

by FREE SPEECH
Censorship reveals weakness.
It's bad enough that the SF-IMC Collective hides or deletes all posts that in any way challenges their twisted "world- view" ( a.k.a. propaganda).

But now they have decided to hide the comments as well.



by imc-sf-tech
No need to worry.

We are in the process of moving comments to a second page. We are also making it possible to upload multiple images in one post(which will all appear on the first page). Eventually you will see titles for all comments on the same page as the post. This is intended to make the site easier to read.

For the next hour or to, things may look weird but thats just because we tend to mess stuff up during deployment.

I hope you understand.
by anonymous
Lies lies lies! It is all a plot by SF-IMC to propagate their worldview in an effort for world domination. Oh the horror!
by Det Demo
New features, hey? Cool. Another feature that would be cool, that's related to the comments, would be to have the comments sections that follows the articles "fold" into seperate pages after a set number of comments/posts (20-40, perhaps). The reason I suggest that, is the lengthier comment pages take a long time to download all at once, for folks making due with a slower dial-up modem. For example, http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/03/118760.php has almost 250 comments now. Somebody could take a look at the php code of software like vbulletin (I think they have a free version at their site), to get an example/idea of how to do it, and maybe incorporate into this sites scheme?

Anyway, keep up the great work. I like the features that are already available, and the option to upload files to your server is 'specially cool, and actually quite generous that such large files are allowed.
by imc-sf-tech
So we just added code to make local and global posts multipage with the comments on a 2nd page. We calso added a new multiupload feature. While we did test all of thsi code before updating the site, if you see any obvious bugs feel free to email the tech email list or just email sf [at] lists.indymedia.org.
by SF IMC supporter.
Both of the following 2 sites get millions of page views per month. I much prefer the comments being on the same page.

CannabisNews.com
http://cannabisnews.com
has comments on the same page as the article and gets tons of comments.

MAP/DrugNews has comments on a different page from the article being commented on and gets relatively few comments on articles.
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/

The comments to the MAP/DrugNews articles end up on pages in these 2 MAP forums:
http://www.drugpolicycentral.com/phpBB/viewforum.php?forum=2&77 and
http://www.drugpolicycentral.com/phpBB/viewforum.php?forum=1&80

I have a request about comment titles. There are not enough characters allowed. I suggest allowing the same amount of characters as for articles. It makes it a lot easier to browse through comment titles in the search engine to find ones of interest.
Oops. Looks like I am thinking of other IMC sites. It looks like there is plenty of room in the title space for comments. I count 90 characters allowed maximum.
by anonymous
Ok, so the reason we moved comments to a seperate page is mainly due to request we have goten from community groups that use the site. The dialogue on the site is great and we are not trying to hide it from those who want to see it, but we also want to make it easy for people to post pictures from an event and send the link from that event to their friends. Since we normally dont filter comments that much, porn and the like has been a constant problem for those seeking to link to posts on the site. With the new multipage comment system it will be easier for a group whose event is covered to link to the post without forcing them to also look at porn posted as comments etc...
We are still fixing many of the links to teh comment page so links form search/latest comments etc.. will all go to teh page with comments when everything is fixed.

We also have left the comments on the same page for nonlocal/global posts since we tend to leave things in this category if the post is more discusion oriented than it is news.
Sorry about the last comment title. It was a test. But it made the text go too far to the right on my old 14 inch monitor.

That's because the article and comments page is enclosed in a table, I believe. I think wide images in a table will cause similar problems?

I don't have problems on my web pages as long as I avoid long URLs or wide images in a table. The text in subsequent paragraphs wraps to the screen fine.

Maybe put articles in a page without side bars? Put all site links on the top and bottom?

This might help pages load a lot faster too, since I believe large amounts of material in a single table has to completely load before it will show up.
by anonymous
Yep, if you post a really long string without any breaks or a really wide picture it can mess teh formatting up for teh whole page. There are a few things we can do to fix this but the page does need to get wider if someone has a wide image so its mainly an issue for the centering of other comments (rather than teh wide one itslef). Anyway by having comments on a seperate page this is less of an issue since the main post will stay well formatted and comments tend to be text so its less of an issue when you are viewing those.
by imc-sf-tech
So now the comments should be a little more obvious. New entries in the latest comments page will all link to the comment page for the post with an anchor on the latest comment. Also after you add a post, the link back to the post will anchor you to the comment you just posted.
by Eric
I was just reflecting on some of the things I've written in the IndyMedia forums. In some cases I've been abrasive and harsh. I think this forum brings out some steeped emotions in me that leads me to unleash on the people here that run the show. It's like a borderline schizophrenic collective mentality that both amazes and amuses me. As JoJo Gunn has said,

"Leftists are fantastically mentally disturbed."

I think reading and posting here perhaps akes me feel the way a frustrated psychiatrist might feel when dealing with his high-intellect schizophrenic patient. I'm amazed by the brilliance and in awe of the disorder. It's a unique experience to say the least.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't really think you activists are ignorant, idiotic, moronic, or any of the adjectives I've used to describe you previously. Those are words of frustration. Frustrated that there are such intelligent people in the world, people that want so much to participate in the course of human events, and yet this desire manifests itself in the form of anarchism, socialism, communism, anti-americanism, anti-government, anti-police, and a general rebellion against authority.

And since there really is no battle for them to fight, no war to wage, no enemy to defeat, in most cases they fabricate one. I think it is brigg "the troll" that makes reference to Don Quioxte in these instances. The IndyMedia activists build straw warriors and then valiantly slay them! It's both admirable and ludicrous. Fantastically disturbed.

Anyway, there's not much more of a point I have to make than that. I think my main objective is to get onto Nessie's "troll" list. How about it Nessie?? Pleaaasssssssse??????
by SF IMC supporter
nessie, you are really condescending at times. You have no clue what many of the posters here do in the way of activism. You generalize way too much.

But back to the point. I don't have a problem with making people who comment have a registered "handle" or "alias." Most successful forums I have seen require this. It is based on an email address, and not a name, so anonymity remains.

And the email address is not required to be public. It is used only on initial registration. After that it is usually just an alias and a password in order to post. And both of those can be optionally put in a cookie.

I don't think original article posters should be required to register, since there is already a system in place to hide racist, sexist, etc. articles. It is comments that are being discussed in this thread.

I can point you to some VERY successful activist forums that do 50+ gigabytes a month. They don't really have a problem with trolls because they are ridiculed if they continually disrupt, and can lose their registration if things get bad enough. Problem solved. But most trolls actually aren't a problem in these forums due to the fact that they can't hide under multiple aliases.

I would much prefer this system than putting the comments on a separate page, because that will be the end of most comments. People shouldn't have to click multiple times just to see if there is a new comment. Registration also allows people to ask that email be sent to them when there is a new comment. This is very useful.

*urban75 forums - powered by vBulletin. This is a popular set of forums. On many topics. These are mainly UK-based message boards. But there are many people from outside the UK who post there, too. There is a drugs forum, too.
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/

FORUMS. Drug War, etc.. Message boards, Indymedia, etc..
http://corporatism.tripod.com/forums.htm
by imc-sf-tech
"People shouldn't have to click multiple times just to see if there is a new comment. "

Now the title of the latest 10 comments appear at the bottom of the noncomment page. :)

As for registration, at some point that may be posible but user management will require a lot of code and user sessions would put a fairly heavy load on the server.
by Jerry
They seem to also be just plain deleting posts they dont like too.
by just wondering
And this is bad, why?
by Eric
"And this is bad, why?"

Well, in America we call it "censorship." See we have this thing called a "Constitution" here and it has what we call "Amendments" and the very first "Amendment" guarantees something we like to call "freedom of speech" which means no reprisals for presenting your point of view. Now while I understand that you don't have "freedom of speech" over there in Iraq where you live, it is typically "practiced" it in most "freedom" loving countries of the world. The exception of course being by those "organizations" that desire to "supress" opinions "contrary" to their own.

Tell Saddam I said hello.
by Eric
"No we don't. We call it "editing." "

Is this an open discussion forum or is it a newspaper or magazine?

There's a fine line between censorship and editing. A rose by any other name...Call it whatever you like.

"If you don't like our editorial policy, go somewhere that has a policy you like better."

Nah. Just keep on censor...er...I mean, editing.

by Eric
"It's whatever the people who run it say it is."

As I said in the first post in reguards to who or what doesn't practice free speech in freedom loving nations...

"The exception of course being by those "organizations" that desire to "supress" opinions "contrary" to their own. "

"If you want to help run it, come to meetings, follow process, do some actual work, and participate in the decision making process."

Where in the world did you get the idea that I might be interested in helping to run this propaganda machine?

"Or sit home and complain. "

Quote one single solitary complaint that I made you over-generalizing goof.

"Either way, people will judge you by your actions."

"Judge not, lest ye be judged" - Jesus Christ

"Maybe you don't mind being thought of as a selfish, lazy whiner. Maybe you do. Time will tell."

Maybe you don't like to be though of as a over-generalizing goof. Maybe you do.

by Eric
"It costs time, money and energy, and none of it's coming from you."

You got that right buddy. BTW, now who is whining?

"How dare you presume to have a say in what happens here?"

Ok, so now quote me where I presumed anything about having a say in what goes on with IndyMedia ogg.

"Volunteers have a say. Volunteers deserve a say. Volunteers earn it. Selfish, lazy, do nothing, air wasting, mouth running, useless, rude whiners do not."

How dare you ogg. The nerve! Insulting me! I thumb my nose at you. I challenge you to a duel. Pistols, ten paces at dawn!

"No work, no say. That's how it is here. Get used to it."

Gee daddy, can I still go school dance on Friday?

At the next meeting, why don't you make a motion to have me banned from the site. After all, I'm a useless spammer attacking the collective. That's contrary to the "editorial" policy, right? I dare you.

Or to put it in language you might understand...
"If you strike me down I shall become even more powerful than you can possibly imagine" - Obi Wan Kenobi

you OGG.
by you wish
by Paul
Jojo was a man who thought he was a loner
But he knew it wouldn't last.
Jojo left his home in Tucson, Arizona
For some California grass.
Get back, get back.
Get back to where you once belonged
Get back, get back.
Get back to where you once belonged.
Get back Jojo. Go home
Get back, get back.
Back to where you once belonged
Get back, get back.
Back to where you once belonged.
Get back Jo.
by sdajflk
For all I care, let SF-IMC censor/edit. They keep saying that our posts do us more damage and them more good than any editorial they could write regarding the subject, yet for some reason they feel they must "hide" certain things. We may call it censorship, they may call it editing. What it boils down to is there are certain things we post that they want off the front page ASAP. The reason they do this is the same reason they would give why the mainstream media would want to marginalize their point of view. These people have stated objectives like all other organizations/collectives, and that is to advance their cause. They aren't the first organization/collective to advance their cause by censoring/editing/hiding their competition. They won't be the last. I say let 'em go at it.
by ghost dancer
Maybe these whiners could make their own site, but that would take some work and whiners are lazy and no account. Nessie you make a lot of sense. You're right about jojo looking bad, but there's nothing new about that. That's the only talent he has.
by yoyo gump
Never mind that. Jojo has convinced me. I want to be just like him... So first I got rid of my brains. Then I watched a lot of cartoons and listened to talk radio. So now I'm all ready. Shocking am I not? Stunningly magnificent. Just like my hero, joke joke, errr I mean dodo err I mean nono errrr.
I am ignoring the nessie-the-left-wing-troll versus the right-wing-trolls battles. I can go to Fox News for that waste of time.

The overriding interest I gather in putting comments on a separate page is so that other websites, email messages, organizations, individuals, etc. can safely link to articles without later having to explain to their mainstream funders, members, and friends why they are linking to articles followed by comments with porn, profanity, inanity like the nessie wars, racism, sexism, etc..

So if this is the case, then even just putting the titles of comments on the article page may be a problem.

I personally am not bothered at all by most porn and profanity, or the nessie wars, but I don't want to give any prime media space at all to racism, sexism, etc. They get way more than their share already on the mega-media. I don't want them censored either, but I do want them hidden into less accessible space, so that I can concentrate more on progressive stuff.

Here is another solution. Is it possible to have 2 URLs? One for the article alone, and one for the article plus comments. I know that in FrontPage I can combine and separate web pages through "include" pages. In other words have an article page and a comments page. Default setting would combine them into an article+comments page.

Leave the default setting the way it is now: articles+comments. Then on that page clearly point out the URL for the article-only page, and tell people they can link to it. Problem solved. And without discouraging people from making comments. As would certainly greatly occur if the default setting was to have comments separated from the article.

Also, I suggest hiding comments. Just like articles are hidden. This is better than censorship, and easier than registration. Leave a link to the hidden comment. But give clear instructions as to why comments will be hidden. I.E racism, sexism, etc.. NOT just because they disagree with nessie the troll.

I have seen a forum where comments can be hidden for various reasons. Such as being very long, or whatever. The link to the hidden comment remains in the thread. AlterNet Discussion Forums is the place:
http://forums.alternet.org/guest/motet?home

I am replying to this sane comment:

fixed
by imc-sf-tech • Wednesday May 08, 2002 at 09:16 AM

"People shouldn't have to click multiple times just to see if there is a new comment. "

Now the title of the latest 10 comments appear at the bottom of the noncomment page. :)

As for registration, at some point that may be posible but user management will require a lot of code and user sessions would put a fairly heavy load on the server.
by imc-sf-tech
"..without later having to explain to their mainstream funders, members, and friends why they are linking to articles followed by comments with ..."

Um, we dont really have funders. All work is done for free, all the code (apache,php,mysql,sfactive) is open source and even our hosting is donated.

"So if this is the case, then even just putting the titles of comments on the article page may be a problem."

Well, we hope people dont get too offended by the titles but if anything is really really offensive we do have admin pages that let us hide comments.

"I personally am not bothered at all by most porn and profanity, or the nessie wars, but I don't want to give any prime media space at all to racism, sexism, etc. "

So the problem is that we dont have that much time to hide comments (its fast but the site has a lot of traffic) and if we do hide them the threads stop making sense. Right now we pretty much only hide bulk duplicate comments (someone posting 10 of the same comment) and pornographic pictures in comments.

"Here is another solution. Is it possible to have 2 URLs? "
Well what we have done is sortof like this. We link to the page with just the latest 10 titles for global and local stories. Pages are cached out to seperate files so any more than 2 pages would slow things down even more (each time you publish it writes two new cached files to disk so when you click through the right hand column you put 0 load on the DB) Right now we are kinda in a code freeze so we can roll these changes out to other indymedia sites running the SF code so we will keep track of peoples suggestions and then when we get back to adding features to the SF code we can perhaps modify the way some of this stuff works.
by wdosi
>Otherwise, stop complaining. You’re wasting your breath and making yourself look bad.

I'm not complaining. I'm encouraging you to go for it. Click, click, yeah I agree, that's easy. I just wanted to point out how at SF-IMC, it is still necessary to "attempt(ing) to be responsive to their desires." It seems in anarchy, market forces still demand that you please the customer. I still say let 'em go at it.
by Eric
"No money changes hands. You're reading this for free. "

I laugh at the thought of actually paying for it. Har!

"That is unless of course you want to donate, in which case I heartily recommend that you donate to me personally"

Har!

"worked steady since I got laid off last August. "

I would suggest getting off the computer and actively looking for a real job, but I might risk being insensitive and rude.

"But how does one donate to nessie you must be wondering"

Hahahahahahaha! He said "I must be wondering" hahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by danny thomas
value yourself by your bank account ? i have no fans nessier`. i dont seek followers as you do. i believe in myself enough that i dont let others determine my value.

the answer is none.

by Eric
Wow! He thinks I'm a fan of his! He thinks he has other fans! Quite an egotistical bugger, isn't he?!

Let me be clear about exactly how much of a fan I am of yours Nessie. My infatuation with you is as fleeting as the time it takes for my browser window to close as I click the exit button. That's right. When I turn my computer off, your thought never again crosses my mind until I happen to stumble across another diatribe on the propaganda wire. And for the 2 to 3 minutes it takes me to read and respond to your tripe, I suppose you could call me a fan. But frankly, it ends there. Not much of a fervent devotee, am I? My appologies if it dents your ego. But I'm all about the truth.

However, I think it's I that should be flattered...

>Most people I talk to think SF-IMC ought to scrape you right off our shoe. Most people I talk to can’t even imagine why you spend so much time here. It’s beyond them.

I didn't realize I had such a following! I had no idea that my innocuous presence was considered by so many of your fans! I suppose that makes them my fans too! I didn't realize so many people, yourself included, have allowed me to rent space in their minds to the degree that I would be discussed by them outside of this forum! I suppose that even makes even yourself my fan, huh Nessie? It sounds as if you and your fans should be paying me! Perhaps you owe me royalties Nessie.

Your absolutely right about why I come here. I'm amazed and amused by this vehicle of propaganda called IndyMedia. That's really about it. You hit the nail on the head. I'm entertained. Of course it didn't take an "Einstien" to figure it out as I've publicly stated my reasons for hanging around more than a half-dozen times on these forums. Of course that was about ever time I was accused of being cia, fbi, police or a government disinformation agent. Oh, no, none of the above. I'm merely Joe Nobody behind a keyboard. And IndyMedia apparently has a hard time dealing with me. Scrape me off the collective's shoe! Har! That's funny! If IndyMedia can't even deal with it's "trolls", nessie, how do you suppose these "activists" will ever be able to deal with the world? Even you have a hard time dealing with me Nessie, and I'm only one lowly nobody. You and your extensive fan base. Har!

I think I've justified myself as not being a deadbeat, as you question. Oh, no, not a deadbeat at all. There's no reason for me to pay you. Or to fund IndyMedia. I owe both no more than they owe me. I contribute to the hogwash here as good as any. Mutual fanship. I of they, and they of I. It cancels and any debt wiped clean.

Of course there's the matter of me receiving entertainment by coming here, reading and posting. Do I owe for that? No, I think not. And you should think nothing of either. See, I'm amused easily. I find entertainment everywhere I go. It's just a characteristic of mine, everything being funny in this way or that. Simple minds are simply amused, right? And you wouldn't try to collect from a simpleton, would you? Not for something you really weren't owed! That would only make you a crook, right? And you're not a crook. You're Nessie, the great anarchist that ranks right up there with "Einstien". The non-adhminem as a rebuttal rebuttal maker. Don Quioxte. OGG. Condescending perhaps but not a crook. Oh no.

As for writing as a career. It is only one if you can make a living doing it. Any literate individual with a healthy imagination can write. I'm writing a book right now. Honestly, it's part of my reason for hanging around IndyMedia. Doing "research" so to speak. Of course it's not my primary reason for being here, that being previously deciphered by yourself, Nessie. But writing? No, not a career for most. Seldom does it pay the bills for most who do it. Perhaps it' s why you despise capitalism so much. You've never really participated in the system and therefore you've never been adequately rewarded. See, in a capitalist society you have the opportunity to earn your worth. Study. Learn a trade. Work hard from the bottom to the top. And one day you own land, transportation, food, and peace of mind for your family. But if what your doing does is not working, then you can try something else. You have to be smarter than the system. Otherwise you get old and bitter. Bitter at the system and blaming it for your own failures in life. Now who is the pathetic one? The old failure, bitter at the the system, or the noble youngster giving it his best go, and making his way? Hmmm. Pause for thought.

"and to think it's just little old me,
Mr. Don't-give-a-fuck still won't leave" - Eminem
by myass
word count: 854
by fkghe
>They are not customers. No money changes hands. You're reading this for free.

In order for one to be a customer, money does not necessarily have to change hands.


> ..."but I haven’t worked steady since I got laid off last August." "I'm a writer. This is my real job,..."

If someone is a *good* writer, don't those who seek to fill open positions at their magazine, newspaper, publications, etc... usually seek these "someones" out? and pay them for their work? Unemployed since August? Maybe that's a hint.





In reply to the last message by imc-sf-tech.

When I was referring to mainstream funders I was talking about funders of organizations that wanted to link to individual articles at SF IMC. I thought this was one of the main reasons to consider separating comments from articles. Outside websites wanted to link to SF IMC articles without offending their funders, readers, etc.. due to the comments that follow many articles.

"So the problem is that we dont have that much time to hide comments (its fast but the site has a lot of traffic) and if we do hide them the threads stop making sense. Right now we pretty much only hide bulk duplicate comments (someone posting 10 of the same comment) and pornographic pictures in comments."

I see your point. Well then, I still think that a good solution would be to create an additional copy of just the article alone, and provide a link to it. Just for those outside websites that want safe, stable, links to articles without comments.

But there should still remain the default setting of the article plus comments. On one page. To separate the comments from the article would, as I said previously, cause most people to stop making comments. It would be difficult to easily refer back to the article in order make sensible comments, or to quote the article. This is the same logic you make as to why hiding too many comments would make the threads stop making sense. I agree with this logic.
by Inquiring minds want to know
How do you get to the hidden articles page? I don't see the link.
by pointer
by clicking on the hypertext "view hidden posts" in the right hand column of the first page.
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