vote for our cops!

I agree with you and I must add that the people most high up are probably the most responsible for creating the police state. Nixon, Reagan, Clinton and both of the Bush's have been responsible for the buildup of arms against the American people. An excellent read is Micheal Parenti's book Lockdown America.

Really, I don't think it is the High Ups, the Government, the Man, or the They that create the police in this country. I also question your definition of a police state if you think this country is currently in a police state.

In this country, the main reason for the existence of cops is because communities require and appreciate the service they provide. Cops keep us, our children, our family, and our friends safe from stealing, raping, murdering predators. Without the presence of law enforcement, there would be nothing to deter these criminals from injuring the rest of the community that has chosen to be civilized and obey the laws.

In other countries with a more volatile political climate, I might agree that the government is the cause for a police state, but not here.

The only people who have a total dislike for law enforcement are criminals. There are plenty of them here on indymedia and they are part of the reason I am glad for the existence of police. Of course, there will always be incidents of police brutality, but that needs to be dealt with on a per case basis. Most cops are decent and are doing a tough job. They are protecting our communities and deserve some credit for it.

I agree that the police are responsible for protecting millions of innocent Americans. I must also correct myself, Christian Parenti wrote the awesome inside scoop on the buildup of the police forces in this country, Micheal Parenti is his father. I suggest you do a bit more research instead of basing your opinion on just hearsay. There are many incidents of police brutality, and it's on the rise. There are huge numbers of cops using violent force against peaceful protesters. This country was founded on protest and the right to dissent. If you consider protesters criminals, you might want to re-evaluate what kind of world you live in. Most of the people in prisons are African-Americans, and I would have to contest that there are an equal number of white predators out there. Most serial killers are white, why this inequality in prison demographics? I hope that someone who has read up on the issue will post so that we can have a more informed debate. Maybe you don't percieve this to be a police state because you're white and priveleged.

well, well I never heard that communities wanted to be protected from cops. This country is the most totalitarian country of the world and the use of the cops is for the protectection of private property, if robert is not able to see this, I may suggest to him to look around this country and see for himself. Cops are not in there to protect the society from criminals, it is only marginal, they are in there to keep the status quo. In any way is moron way of thinking that civilised societies need cops, these people are not even elected from us. Society do not need cops, societies need freedom and social justice. I do not think we are even nearly of one of these premises. If cops are against any criminals well way they do not go to arrest Reagan, Bushes and Clinton? They steal from people and they created crime against humanity.
No, we do not need cops they are criminals.

There is a war on the poor and those people who won't go along with the consumerized and corporatized culture of America. The prison industrial complex is becoming more and more privatized. Corporations that own these prisons are making a ton of money off of incarcerating people. This war on drugs feeds the prisons. Reagan and Bush Sr. were responsible for the Panamanian massacre. Those presidents used Noriega to be a middle man for drug smuggling from Columbia. Widely known is that the Vietnam war was funded by heroin sales.
So, one can deduce that our government is the trixter. They have a hand in dealing and busting people. Sounds like an undercover, doesn't it.

Oh heavens, if I carry more than $300 on my person then the cops can take it away and throw me in the joint? Those bastards won't even let me do my illegal narcotics without giving me a hard time man! And soon the corporations will own all the prisons and they will slap chains on all the free people and make us work at their license plate factories!

You guys are Starr Trekkin across the universe...

There's Klingons on the starboard bow, Get 'em off Jim!

You can not chang the laws of physics, laws of physics JIM!!!!

IT'S WORSE THAN THAT, HE'S DEAD JIM!!!!!!!!

Always goin' forward cause we can not find reverse!!!!

http://home.wanadoo.nl/~sytze/sttrekkin/

Drugs and simple offenses are just excuses that the government uses to arrest people to get them in their grips. I don't do or endorse the use of drugs. Most drugs are mind control substances. Eric, let's have an adult conversation sometime, it might be fun.
In California, the police can take you to jail for merely being in groups of more that two people or for having written to a "known gang member". The police are allowed to decide who is and isn't a gang member. Remember that laws are written to oppress or control certain segments of the population.
I happen to love living outside, yet it is illegal for me to sleep anywhere that isn't indoors and not in a designated camping spot. I love to be free and wild. Living in the wild is good, being a slave in a box kills my soul.

Ok, let's have an adult conversation right now. I'll behave. Let me start off by saying that I disagree with about 90% of what you've written. Police officers go out and put their lives on the line every single day of the week, for crappy pay and no benifits. Why do you suppose they do that? Because they get jollies out of harrassing innocent people? Please get a clue. Drug use is not a minor crime. People that do drugs end up stealing, robbing, and raping to get more cash to do more drugs. Peddlers are out on the streets trying to sell these drugs to mine and your children. Do you condone that?? By saying the things you do, I assume that you do. You can not have it both ways. Just last week, right here where I live, the police set up a routine traffic stop. A fugitive pulled up to it, pulled out his gun and killed a police officer. That mans children are fatherless now. Why? If the guy who shot him was capable of doing that to a cop, what do you suppose he was cappable of doing to you? I am certain he could do much worse things to you that you may not (or may?) have enjoyed.

I'm not saying there are not corrupt police officers. There certainly are. What that Inglewood police officer did to that kid was in-excusable. The fact that his partners didn't prevent it, or stop him was also. But the police act in good faith most of the time. I know plenty of police officers. They are good people trying to do a difficult job. You have no idea what they have to deal with. NONE. And for them to have to put up with people like these liberals sceaming "PIGS" and "FASCISTS" is uncalled for! Is that what you call an "adult" conversation.

Why don't you tell me what YOU do for a living, Solidarity.

"Remember that laws are written to oppress or control certain segments of the population."

So let's just do away with laws. Then I can tote my Glock around and plug liberals at will. I agree. Sounds like fun.

"I happen to love living outside, yet it is illegal for me to sleep anywhere that isn't indoors and not in a designated camping spot. "

Yes. Let's allow everybody to live outdoors. Every bum can piss and shit anywhere he/she likes. To problems. Throw your trash in my yard and I'll shower in your birdbath.

"I love to be free and wild. Living in the wild is good, being a slave in a box kills my soul. "

Oh! You're a free spirit! Take off all your clothes and frolic down the streets! Oh the wonder! Oh the glory!

If you want to have an adult conversation, then get serious. Don't blather on with this lunacy.

Quit trying to romanticize what the cops do, Eric. They actually tend to make very good money with plenty of benefits. Course, that varies from place to place, city to city. But, most start out making around $40,000-$50,000 a year. That's more than most people, including teachers and nurses. That by itself reveals the priorities of the system. Cops are paid to oppress the poor. "Good cops" end up leaving or quitting cause they see how corrupt and racist it is.

Solidarity will deal with you.

"But, most start out making around $40,000-$50,000 a year. "

State your source.

Police and sheriff's patrol officers had median annual earnings of $39,790 in 2000. The middle 50 percent earned between $30,460 and $50,230. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $23,790, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $58,900. Median annual earnings were $44,400 in State government, $39,710 in local government, and $37,760 in Federal Government.
In 2000, median annual earnings of police and detective supervisors were $57,210. The middle 50 percent earned between $43,630 and $70,680. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $34,660, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $86,060. Median annual earnings were $74,070 in Federal Government, $57,030 in local government, and $53,960 in State government.
In 2000, median annual earnings of detectives and criminal investigators were $48,870. The middle 50 percent earned between $37,240 and $61,750. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $29,600, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $72,160. Median annual earnings were $61,180 in Federal Government, $46,340 in local government, and $43,050 in State government
Police and sheriff's patrol officers had median annual earnings of $39,790 in 2000. The middle 50 percent earned between $30,460 and $50,230. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $23,790, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $58,900. Median annual earnings were $44,400 in State government, $39,710 in local government, and $37,760 in Federal Government.
In 2000, median annual earnings of police and detective supervisors were $57,210. The middle 50 percent earned between $43,630 and $70,680. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $34,660, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $86,060. Median annual earnings were $74,070 in Federal Government, $57,030 in local government, and $53,960 in State government.

In 2000, median annual earnings of detectives and criminal investigators were $48,870. The middle 50 percent earned between $37,240 and $61,750. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $29,600, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $72,160. Median annual earnings were $61,180 in Federal Government, $46,340 in local government, and $43,050 in State government
Police and sheriff's patrol officers had median annual earnings of $39,790 in 2000. The middle 50 percent earned between $30,460 and $50,230. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $23,790, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $58,900. Median annual earnings were $44,400 in State government, $39,710 in local government, and $37,760 in Federal Government.
In 2000, median annual earnings of police and detective supervisors were $57,210. The middle 50 percent earned between $43,630 and $70,680. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $34,660, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $86,060. Median annual earnings were $74,070 in Federal Government, $57,030 in local government, and $53,960 in State government.

In 2000, median annual earnings of detectives and criminal investigators were $48,870. The middle 50 percent earned between $37,240 and $61,750. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $29,600, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $72,160. Median annual earnings were $61,180 in Federal Government, $46,340 in local government, and $43,050 in State government
http://stats.bls.gov/oco/ocos160.htm#earnings

Here in Oakland is a good example. Cops/Pigs make around 45k-50k while teachers make 30k. That's bullshit!

"Police and sheriff's patrol officers had median annual earnings of $39,790 in 2000. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $23,790. Median annual earnings were $44,400 in State government, $39,710 in local government, and $37,760 in Federal Government."

Not a whole lot of money to risk getting your ass shot off, is it che-wah-wah? I think it was you that said $40k a year wasn't enough for families in this country, wasn't it?? Oh, yes, here it is:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/07/136379_comment.php#136913

For an engineer, you're not very good with numbers. Then again, they are probably just paying you so well because you know how to kiss company ass.

Median family income includes the salaries of both parents, you dumbass! That means, as individuals, both the mother and father in most american families are averaging around 20k-25k. Man, you're a moron. Cops obviously make more than most individual parents.

Isn't it the NRA, supported by the Republicans, that disolves regulations on gun control most of the time? The drug war increases violence in neighborhoods. By using such brute violence and longterm jail sentences the violence rises in part because the supply becomes more difficult even as demand rises. So in turn more money becomes involved. Of course I don't want my loved ones influenced by harmful drugs, but I also don't want poor neighborhoods infiltrated and instigated by the police.There is also a lot of evidence to say that police do racial profiling on routine traffic stops.
My grandfather was a police chief for a very long time, so I do have respect for the people themselves that take on jobs as law enforcement. He would take the keys away from drunks, drop them off at home and give them their keys the next day.
Of course this was before and only slightly after the police buildup of the sixties.
As for being a "free spirit". Are you implying that it's a good thing to be enslaved? I'm sure that you like to camp or fish so I'm sure that you can understand. If you don't, camping is a great family bonding experience and will make you feel good.
I believe in direct and true democracy where all citizens take an active part in the decisions government makes. I vote and write letters to my representatives yet I feel very unrepresented by the mostly white, wealthy and corporately influenced government that is currently in power. I happen to be white, yet I grew up in a lower income neighborhood and have friends from around the globe. I have compassion for all people of this earth. Even you, Eric.

"Median family income includes the salaries of both parents ... Cops obviously make more than most individual parents. "

No kidding? Really? Is that what that means? No shit Dick Tracy. I didn't dispute the fact that police make more than average. But that average individual income you so diligently champion comes from numbers across the board. It doesn't factor in education, training, or the type of work performed you pathetic moron. So it should be intuitively obvious to even the most casual spoiled little Hispanic hypocrite from the valley that a policeman should be paid more than say a "Do you want fries with that?" fast food drive through food service clerk, a janitor, or an indybay board operator. If you ask me, an extra $10k to $15k a year for having to wear a bulletproof vest, get you balls grabbed on by some little punk that you want to slam his head down on the hood of you car, or dealing with the literal scum of the nation, is not worth it. They couldn't pay me enough money to do that job. And as for whether or not the cops are any worse than you (or I for that matter), well they're just people. They don't like the idiots they have to deal with any more than you or me. And we both know what would happen if you and I met on the street. It would be more like a Rodney King ass whoopin' for you than an Inglewood on the hood in the 'hood pile driver. So I can't really blame them for cutting loose on some of these idiots now and again. If you don't like it, go out and tell one of 'em so. Preferably a big one.

“Let's have a picnic Eric”

If you wanna have a picnic with me, you need to get that dementia under control first. I like the women I associate with to be on a stable plane of thought, and your grasp on reality appears to be, to put it as nicely as I can, feeble.

“Isn't it the NRA, supported by the Republicans, that disolves regulations on gun control most of the time?”

If we outlaw guns then somethin’ somethin’ (How does the rest of that go?)

“The drug war increases violence in neighborhoods. By using such brute violence and longterm jail sentences the violence rises in part because the supply becomes more difficult even as demand rises.”

Cuckoo for cocoa puffs. It sounds like you want to do away with drug laws? You want your children buying these drugs? You want to be driving down the same highway with some dope fiend strung out on smack?

“Of course I don't want my loved ones influenced by harmful drugs,”

YOU CAN NOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS

“but I also don't want poor neighborhoods infiltrated and instigated by the police.”

Poverty has nothing to do with it. You’re criss-crossing 2 distinct issues. Police infiltrate neighborhoods where the dope pushers thrive. If it also happens to be a poor neighborhood, what is the connection? Where are all these poor people getting money to buy drugs from their neighborhood peddlers?

“There is also a lot of evidence to say that police do racial profiling on routine traffic stops. “

I’m all for it. Racial profiling is a tool like any other. Every citizen should have no problems fully cooperating if he/she has nothing to hide. When you are sitting at the blackjack table, you don’t hit on 20. You play the odds. That’s what racial profiling does, and it should be utilized effectively. If the majority of the dope peddlers, terrorists, and deviants were clean cut white suit wearing males in their 30’s, I’d have no problem with police offers checking out my suspicious actions and detaining me for questioning. Certainly not unless I was guilty of something.

”My grandfather was a police chief for a very long time, so I do have respect for the people themselves that take on jobs as law enforcement.”

So why don’t you go tell your family about your “fascist pig” of a grandfather. I bet you wouldn’t say those things to his face. If you would, then you are a disgrace to your entire family.

“He would take the keys away from drunks, drop them off at home and give them their keys the next day. “

This isn’t the Andy Griffith Show we are talking about honey. This is real life. You really should learn to differentiate.

“As for being a "free spirit". Are you implying that it's a good thing to be enslaved?”

No, I’m implying that self-restraint is a good thing. Every law is on the books for a reason, no matter how stupid it may seem. Somewhere, somehow, some idiot did something he shouldn’t have done that jeopardized someone else’s freedom.

“I'm sure that you like to camp or fish so I'm sure that you can understand. If you don't, camping is a great family bonding experience and will make you feel good. “

There are plenty of places to camp. It doesn’t mean we should just allow vagrants to set up home where ever they choose.

”I believe in direct and true democracy where all citizens take an active part in the decisions government makes.”

How do you propose we do that here in this country of more than 350 million people? You want me imposing my beliefs on you? I certainly don’t want your imposed on me?

“I vote and write letters to my representatives”

I’d bet a paycheck you vote strictly a Democratic or socialist ticket. You are a liberal.

“ yet I feel very unrepresented by the mostly white, wealthy and corporately influenced government that is currently in power.”

Well, I’m sorry. Democracy is a bitch, ain’t it?

“I happen to be white, yet I grew up in a lower income neighborhood and have friends from around the globe. I have compassion for all people of this earth.”

Beautiful. Simply eloquent. How cliché. Well, I suppose one good cliché deserves another.

Compassion must be balanced with indifference, freedom with discipline, and love with hate. I understand that is what liberals are all about, an attempt to balance the overwhelming desire to punish evil and serve justice, held by the masses. The problem is, we don’t want it. We want safety and security for our children, friends, families, and selves. We could care less about saving the trees, seals, helping those who refuse to help themselves, being nice to thugs, criminals and drug dealers.

“Even you, Eric.”

Oh yes. Your condescension is much appreciated. Crucify yourself for my sins Jesus! Save me from myself!

Honey, I hate to tell you this, but I’m as close to pristine as anyone you’d ever like to meet in your life. I guarantee that you’d much rather me walk up on you in a dark alley late at night when you’re stumbling around lost than most of those you purport to feel compassion for. I’d put you in a car and take you home. Most of them would put on a pile of trash, do dirty things to you, cut your throat, and take purse and jewlry.

Cops deserve better pay cause of their training? Yea, that makes sense. Regular policeman only have to have a high school education. In fact, the politicians are constantly fighting against any requirements against them having more of an education cause they want the cops do be so damn dumb. It tends to make them more willing to go along and support/protect the status quo. Pretty insightful as to the working of the system that teachers (who need to have at least a 4 year college degree and are responsible for teaching the next generation of children) get paid less then cops. The govt. is much more willing to put kids behind bars than educate them. Course, that suits you just fine, Eric the racist, cause that means less people for you to "compete" with for a job.

You're such a fucking reactionary, it's incredible. I wish more politicians would reveal their true colors, like you do, so we can hurry up with the class war.

By the way, legalizing drugs would not lead to more kids on drugs. Legalizing them would make them safer, easier to regulate, easier to educate people about and less a "rebelious thing to do." Course, if we do that, then the govt. and cops would lose their "war on drugs" plan which they like to use to prop up murderous regimes in Colombia and terrorize blacks and latinos with. That's why they're so against it.

And I'm all for the right to bear arms. People like Eric need to be vanquished. haha

"teachers (who need to have at least a 4 year college degree and are responsible for teaching the next generation of children) get paid less then cops. "

Teachers only work 9 months out of the year. And not all states require a 4 year degree to teach. Not that a degree means any fucking thing at all. It's just a piece of paper saying you paid adequate tuition. A degree from Berkeley is a piece of paper that says you paid way too fucking much tuition and probably still don't know shit.

"You're such a fucking reactionary, it's incredible."

I feel the same way about your liberalism.

Since the courts have found that the police cannot be held responsible if they fail to protect someone, can they be sued for failing to uphold the law if they were present and failed to act?

Obviously I'm on Eric's side on this issue. The real truth here is that many people on Indymedia totally oppose cops and not just police brutality. Trying to argue with them is absolutely futile. It does not matter though, really. Their views of anarchy and chaos replacing civilized, orderly living will never get far in this country. They are living in a dream world.

There is absolutely NO way communities will turn on their police. Police provide a community with a vauable service that most would never choose to live without.

On the point of police brutality, it is good that people are watching. I won't argue with that. Although I find that the cop watchers at Indymedia go way, way overboard at times.

On the point of police training & salary, I think they are probably underpaid. Yes, they only required to have a highschool diploma. However, they do get much specialized training and must maintain a decent level of physical fitness. Becoming a cop is not easy. Also, these guys are putting their lives on the line every day. Don't they deserve some hazard pay for that?

Finally, to get back to the article, I think it is a bit silly to suggest that we vote for our cops. Most americans have no idea what it takes to be a cop and have very little understanding of the skills one must possess. Since America is about the laziest country I can think of, there is no way that a normal person could judge the physical abilities of a prospective officer. This decision should be left to the experts, senior officers.

Course people are going to be convinced most of the time that they are going to need protection from the state or cops at a time of desperation or whatever. That's just out of practicality and state propaganda. When someone gets shot, you need to call the "authorities." The fact of the matter is, though, that poor people and people of color know damn well that the cops are not their friends and that they're just as likely to harass you, frame you, beat your ass as they are to "help" you. That's cause cops are racist. You can't be a cop and not be racist, internalize racism. That's what happens when your job is to mainly go after people of color and the poor. And most people would say that they'd much rather have money be spent on schools, childcare and good jobs than on cops. With more of those things, you don't need as many cops.

Eric isn't only racist but he's sexist too. Please don't call me honey.
I don't like drugs or guns because I think that they inevitably lead to violence. White people are mostly responsible for corporate crimes that have recently crippled our country, being mass murderers, and drug dealers. Don't mean to alarm you, but large numbers of suburban raised children in middle and high schools are doing drugs. Columbine and the school murders have been committed by white kids.
Face it, the minorities of this country are oppressed. The black people were brought over here shackled and enslaved. Granted, many beautiful black people have managed to pull themselves somewhat out of the pit of poverty, but have you ever been to Philly? The FBI dropped a bomb on the MOVE 9,( a peaceful community organization), put Mumia Abdul Jamal in jail, and killed Martin Luther King Jr. This is a highly racist country.
My grandfather didn't police in the days of the recent police state. We've only moved into a true police state since Bush's fascist regime took power by rigging the elections and letting 911 happen (they knew 911 was going to happen, they even admitted it).
I feel that my opinions are as valid as yours. Are you, Eric, trying to imply that because I'm a radical woman that I'm not logical or well balanced? Get real. I feel that some of the things you say exhibit juvenile, sexist, racist, and uneducated thinking. Yet, I believe that because we live in a country that is governed by the people you have the right to say them.
Anarchy means the freedom from authoritative rule. A Democracy is supposed to be of the people. Is this other guy so stupid that he needs other "experts" to tell him how he should live?

Acsuse me but I happened to grow up in south philly(home of Larry Fine and Sly Stallone) and if you talk to anyone from west philly(were osage ave. was) nobody liked MOVE. They cursed and spat on everybody including the black community that lived there.The FBI had little to do with the bombing,it was BLACK mayor Wilson Goode that orderd it and was resposeable for the fiasco that followed.Move fired and killed and wounded a few fireman and policeman during the raid and refused to be helped .I wachted the entire thing on T.V.in 1985 and spoke to a lot of people that were there.
Move never preached or practed peace.

Solidarity, you can't be for real. Let's get real here, a little personal. Tell us who YOU are? What do YOU do for a living?? Where do YOU live?? When was the last time YOU personally were oppressed by the police? What were the specifics of that situation? Back up you ridiculous mantras with a little personal testimony. Let us know that you're not just another faker. I bet you won't because that's exactly what I think you are.


"Eric isn't only racist but he's sexist too."

Funny how you liberals always resort to the same tired old name calling. The champions of tolerance and diversity. Just a post ago you were telling me how much you cared for me and now I'm racist and sexist.

Well, I'll be honest. I'm not racist, but I am definately sexist. I mean, let's, again, get real here. Women are, without question, inferior to men. I mean, all other things being equal, the average guy is physically stronger and more capable than the average woman. That makes women inferior, doesn't it? I think it does.

"Please don't call me honey."

Ok sweetie, I promise, I won't let it happen again.

"White people are mostly responsible for corporate crimes that have recently crippled our country, being mass murderers, and drug dealers."

Hurry, hurry, step right up! Witness the ramblings of dementia!

"Don't mean to alarm you, but large numbers of suburban raised children in middle and high schools are doing drugs."

Oh, so we should just legalize it. Give them access to it since some of them are going to do it anyhoo. You really should seek psychiatric counseling for your symptoms, sweetie.

"Columbine and the school murders have been committed by white kids."

Really? Well that justifies everything you've said! I am convinced! Legalize drugs and let the homeless sleep on your lawns! Down with corporate America!

"Face it, the minorities of this country are oppressed. The black people were brought over here shackled and enslaved...This is a highly racist country."

That rant is has one tremendous flaw. Anyone in this country that feels repressed is granted the ultimate freedom, should they choose to invoke it. That freedom is the "right to leave". American passports are relatively cheep. $60 at your local post office. And the cool thing about having an AMERICAN passport is that you can EASILY be granted access to practically any other country on the globe with it. So to anyone who feels oppressed here in America, please feel free to choose another country, and be sure to send the State Department a letter renouncing your American citizenship when you get to the motherland. Long live Freedom of Leaving!!!

"We've only moved into a true police state since Bush's fascist regime took power by rigging the elections"

So which is it. Have we been a police state since the 60s or just in the last two years?? Dementia.

You liberals just don't have any ideas do you? The people are so fed up with your ridiculousness. Oh well, November 5th is coming. Won't be long and we will be a REAL police state. Then you'll have something to rant about. But at least the majority of people will be happy.

"and letting 911 happen (they knew 911 was going to happen, they even admitted it)."

Dementia. How much does indymedia pay you? HOW MUCH?? It's just so hard for me to believe there are actually people out there with such mental dysfunction. Well, I guess it should be so surprising what with 5 year old girls getting kidnapped, raped and killed and whatnot. Your type are just the enablers.

"I feel that my opinions are as valid as yours."

That's because you are fantastically mentally disturbed.

"Are you, Eric, trying to imply that because I'm a radical woman that I'm not logical or well balanced?"

Ummmm....hmmmmm.....

Yes.

"Get real."

You must be kidding.

"I feel that some of the things you say exhibit juvenile, sexist, racist, and uneducated thinking."

Yes. I admit it. I am uneducated. Hooked on phonics did not work for me.

Juvenile? Maybe. I just refuse to waste energy responding to such depravity by actually digesting it with mental factions and then responding with acumen. Think of me as a computer, sweetie. Garbage in, garbage out.

"Yet, I believe that because we live in a country that is governed by the people you have the right to say them."

Well thank you my Queen, her majesty of greatness, virtue and all that is compassionate, merciful, and kind. I kow tow in your presence and kiss your feet.

Get the fuck out of here. I'll say whatever the fuck I choose, whether you like it or not. I don't get my freedom from you. You get yours from me. See, I am in the majority. You're a liberal. That's what Democracy is all about! Isn't it wonderful??

"Anarchy means the freedom from authoritative rule."

Oh, now the true colors are coming out. You're an anarchist. Why does that not surprise me?

What a joke.

"A Democracy is supposed to be of the people."

What is your point? I don't get it.

"Is this other guy so stupid that he needs other "experts" to tell him how he should live? "

Liberal name calling again. You guys really have nothing, don't you?? Your so egotistical that when people don't agree with you, you hope to badger them into submission by calling them "stupid". Ann
Coulter is right. Liberals are nothing more than a little high school girl clique, exclusive to those who are "cool". Personally, I think of you more as a sick, twisted, perverted death cult.

This is great! You, Eric, keep showing us your hate and trying to justify yourself with attacks. Who is really the name caller?
Why in the world would I tell you my personal information? Want my SS# too? I don't trust anyone that spills forth with hate and violence.
Instead of jailing drug offenders, why doesn't the state send them to a rehabilitation center instead?
Just because the majority of men are stronger than women , that doesn't make them inferior. In school, most of the women scored a lot higher on tests and the SAT's. Men and women compliment each other nicely, strengths and weaknesses balancing out. I know a woman that is 6'2" and she can do work that some men can't do.
Not everyone votes in this country, so how do you know that the Republicans are in the majority. The Republicans didn't gain the White House because they are in the majority, they stole the election.
We are entering the true definition of a police state, before this the police were just being built into what they are becoming. I don't think that everyone will be or is happier under the Bush regime. 700,000 people have been layed off since last year and the number keeps growing. Most of our rights and social services are being taken away and our public school system is crumbling. Not to mention, that the "war on the world" to create the New World Order is murdering thousands of people as we speek. That the Palestinian people who are living on their homeland is being wiped out just as the white settlers came and commited genocide on the Native American populations that were here before them.

Bush's ass would be impeached already. It's pretty amusing that fucking pathetic rightwingers like Eric think this country is on the Right just cause Bush is still in power. Is that the same Bush who most people in this country didn't vote for? Is that the same Bush who is up to his neck in the corporate scandals that people despise? He is riding the wave of jingoism right now. But he is extendng the war and govt. powers too far and in time, the war will be descredited.

Ya, liberals are a high school girl clique. That' s a good one. I guess that makes Ann Coutier (or whatever or sorry ass name is) a frat boy, old boy's network member.

You guys are right. I think I wanna become an anarchist. Where do I sign up? I mean, your logic is irrefutable. You people are the shit. I am in awe of your self-awareness and grasp of reality.

I am also immensely bored. (yawn)

Is that all you can say? You don't impress me with any of your arguments, or lack there of. The only words that spill out of your mouth are garbage. I hope you teach your children critical thinking skills., or if you can't I hope our school system can.

How old are you?

Oh Eric, I'm so glad your on-line tonight. I thought that you would be a little bit more entertaining, but you're a few hours ahead of me so you're probably tired. How about if you guess how old i am? I'll give you a clue. I'm old enough to vote (which doesn't seem to do much good) but I'm not old enough to legally be president. I am old enough to have been abused by the police. How old are you. I'll guess first. How about 30's? Not that it matters.

Good guess, not considering the fact that I've posted my age publicly on indybay several times, that I've spent 12 years in the military, or any number of things that could have tipped you off. But more specifically, I'm 32. Anything else you want to know? Unlike most of these boisterous liberal loudmouths that post here on indybay, I'm not frightened to reveal my "personal" information.

So you want me to guess your age? Fun little game, I'll bite. Let me see, hmmmm...

Well, there's quite a few telling signs. The most obvious is a desire to play the age guessing game. The only people that like to play that game are young adults who take pride in the fact that they act older than their real age, and older men who look much younger than they actually do. You're probably not the latter, so that gives me age boundaries of 22 to about 26. Your anarchist idealism leads me to believe you're closer to 22, as most 26 year olds have jobs and more pressing lives than to rant about how terrible the police are on the internet all day. So, I'll take a stab and say 23, although it's quite possible that you're younger.

Vigor for Utopianism gives you away. That will pass with age and you'll become more "practical" though. Let's have this conversation in about 10 years. I bet you won't nearly feel the same as you do now.

good guess! It's funny that you call me idealistic, I call myself an educated, hardworking student. I doubt that I'm going to favor a police state and martial law in a few years. You're enslaved and sit behind a desk all day, your life is a model example of how one can waste their years away working to make other people a shit load of money while they throw you a bone. I love to work for things that matter, like growing food or helping elderly people live fuller lives.
I know many people in the area that I live in that strive daily to make this country a better place to live in and some of them are in their eighties! This area is full of activists of all ages. Why does age matter to you so much? Are you trying to invalidate me just because of my age? Good try but many people do amazing things in their 20's because their not afraid to live. Of course I will learn more than I know now, but that's a given. So is it fair to say that "just because you're in your 30's" you couldn't possibly know enough to make change? You probably won't because it doesn't seem like you leave any room for personal growth. How much does your boss pay you to surf the internet?

"good guess! "

Obvious really. You're pretty transparent, as are most liberals. You'd be amazed at what I can tell about people. But I've yet to find anyone on indybay as masterful at it as myself. Liberals are too quick to scream "fascist, racist, homphobic" etc. ad nauseum to really figure out with whom they are speaking. I on the other hand, put a great deal of effort towards it. The credibility of the dialogue is proportional to the credibilty of the source.

"It's funny that you call me idealistic, I call myself an educated, hardworking student."

You give yourself too much credit. Another flaw of liberal minded thinking. Reevaluate.

"I doubt that I'm going to favor a police state and martial law in a few years."

And given to hyperbole. Another flaw of liberal minded thinking.

"You're enslaved and sit behind a desk ... while they throw you a bone."

Assuming. Yet another flaw.

"I love to work for things that matter, like growing food or helping elderly people live fuller lives."

Tell me about some of your hard work in the fields of agriculture and gerontology. I'm all ears.

A person can only be a slave for as long as he allows himself. And I certainly do work for what matters -my family. -

"Why does age matter to you so much?"

With age comes wisdom.

"Are you trying to invalidate me just because of my age?"

No more than you are trying to invalidate me, by calling me ageist. People of all ages do amazing things. One of the most amazing is self-evaluation and self-actualization.

"I will learn more than I know now, but that's a given. So is it fair to say that "just because you're in your 30's" you couldn't possibly know enough to make change?"

All I am saying, is that you have a long road ahead. The path of arrogance is a bumpy, cobblestone one.

I'm sure there have been things in your life to make you feel bitterly towards the police. People develop bitterness for a lot of groups, for a lot of reasons. I have quite a bit myself, against liberals. But I recognize it and accept it.

Since I played your silly little game Solidarity, perhaps you'll indulge me and play mine. Why do you suppose a rightwing fascist such as myself posts in this leftwing forum with such regularity, persistence, and alacrity?

"You probably won't because it doesn't seem like you leave any room for personal growth."

If you believe that, you truely have underestimated me.

I base this opinion on the fact that I've seen a profusion of guns and drugs in this country and we aren't a peaceful nation. Not to say that anyone who does drugs or owns a gun is violent, just that these things seem to be conducive to a violent perspective.

I base this opinion on the fact that I've seen a profusion of guns and drugs in this country and we aren't a peaceful nation. Not to say that anyone who does drugs or owns a gun is violent, just that these things seem to be conducive to a violent perspective.

The same analogy can be applied to countries with nuclear capablilities. And I couldn't agree more.

Eric, I'm glad that you post so that we can have this interesting dialogue. I find all kinds of people interesting, I don't hate anyone. I would certainly love to see our nation reclaim itself for the people rather than for the corporations. So, you work for your family? No, you work for a corporation to feed your family. Admirable in a lot of ways because a lot of fathers in this country skip out on child rearing duties.
To what lengths would you compromise your own morality?
I work on many farms and local gardens to grow organic tasty food. I love to help my elders and have worked for the state as an in-home care provider. I also have elderly grandparents that I visit as often as possible. You say you know me oh so well. I happen to understand where your coming from also. My father is a computer engineer and so is my step-mother. She actually makes more money than he does, which is interesting. Everyone is a hypocrite and I recognize this in myself as well. I'm continually working on myself so as to make the world a better place. Do you ever admit to when you're wrong or change your mind? I do. Although I still feel that you are justifying your enslavement. You say that I've assumed something about you that isn't true. What may that be? You clump everyone under this title of "liberalists". That is so presumptuous of you. "Liberals" are all very different people with different ideas. Does this simplification make life easier for you? I don't really like to label myself. The world isn't as linear and black/white as you were hoping.
I understand that parenting is the toughest job and my life would be very different if I had children.
Right now I'm able to live with no money and just barter and trade for everything that I need. I also live in an amazing place where that is possible. Everyone lives in different ways. Maybe you can appreciate people for who they are and what they can offer? Have a good day.

Thank you Nessie. I see your point and shall ponder. The only thing is that a lot of guns are used against their owners or children living in the house. I guess that goes back to responsibility. It is about the money and the prohibition should end. The prohibition in the 20's created a violent atmosphere and allowed people like Al Capone to gain such power.
My father taught me how to use a gun, but I would be worried about being able to get to a gun, if I owned one, in time to protect myself.
Then there is the point that in Europe their is much less gun related crime because they have much stricter laws.

No desire to play my game, eh? How unfair of you.

I don’t believe that you do hate anyone, even though you are so given to name calling and attempting to undermine the police, government, and those whose philosophies with which you disagree. I realize your agenda for these actions, but I feel they may be more politically motivated than perhaps you even realize. It’s quite possible that you’re simply being manipulated by the left, perhaps without even knowing it.

Yes, I work for a corporation to provide for my family. No one is forcing me, or anyone else in this country to do that. Some people simply choose to make things easy and participate in a system that works, far better than any other in history. Some people choose not to participate and force themselves into believing those who do are pawns. The greatest thing about the system is that it allows an individual the freedom to choose.

As far as compromising my morality, that’s a deep question. The only suitable answer I can give to you, is “no more than you, I suppose.” As you’ve said, “we are all hypocrites” to some degree or the other.

I applaud your work; you definitely deserve recognition for your actions. But I’d suggest that you don’t expect everyone else to live up to your high standards; to do so is condescending. It’s the same as when a Jehovah’s Witness comes to your door and attempts to convert you. People will plug their ears and run away.

I regularly admit to being wrong or when I change my mind. I’m not so full of hubris that I can’t admit when I’ve made a mistake. That would be foolhardy.

And we are all a slave in one way or another, I to capitalism, and you to ideology. Slavery is nothing more than a state of mind.

It’s not that I categorize people as “liberal” so much as identify liberal thought patterns, rationality, and logic. Believe me, liberalism is a very distinct and identifiable form of thinking (as is conservatism). I’m not talking politics. I’m talking mindset. It’s not the root of all evil, but sometimes I think it comes pretty close. I recognize the need for it, but I find it doing so much more damage than good. Taking the obvious opposition in an argument, and calling it “critical thinking” is not always wise. And more times than not, I see liberals doing exactly that with insufficient analysis of the perspective. As far as the world being “black and white”, I have a personal philosophy that I’ve used extensively; I call it the “gray spectrum”. You are right in that “the world isn’t black and white”.
But black and white does exist at the boundaries of a spectrum that contains infinite shades of gray. And there is a middle hue. And there is a left hue. And there is a right hue. And they are identifiable.

I’m also glad we’ve talked. I hope you also have a good day.

With the recent scandals in the newspapers as to how WorldCom, Tyko and Enron are ripping off their shareholders and workers, I would hardly call this a working system. This country is too big to manage. I wish that Ecotopia would come to fruition. I would love the Pacific Northwest to seceed from the rest of the U.S. I just went on a roadtrip and was horrified to see that corporate America is homogenizing all of the towns and cities with one stop shop gas stations, Walmarts and Denny's. I've lived in California my entire lifetime and I'm watching developers build over farmland with ticky tacky houses and shopping malls. Small farmers are being pushed out of business by agribusiness'. I'm on a boycott as much as possible of corporate America. i have a dream that we will be free once again.
I may not agree with everything you guys have to say but at least we can respect that we are walking our chosen paths.
Eric, you're the pot calling the kettle black. You've called both Che and I horrible names.

Feel free to cite at least one example where I called you (or Che for that matter) a "horrible" name without first being provoked.

Besides, it's expected of a fascist, racist, sexist, homophobic rightwing ageist like me, isn't it? After all, I am no champion of tolerance or diversity.

nessie, Do you still feel the same way about the cops being a "gang of theives"?


" the cops can take it way! "
by nessie • Wednesday July 17, 2002 at 10:03 AM

They're a gang of theives.

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/01/114770_comment.php#114793

Comparing cops to teachers is so stupid. My family is made up almost entirely of cops and teachers so I've seen how both sides live.

Teachers and cops do make about the same money when you stop and consider that most teachers only work about 8 months out of the year. Cops on the other hand only get 2-3 weeks time off and unlike teachers, they're usually required to work every major holiday for the first 3-5 years of their career. Of course they also get paid overtime which teachers do not.

Also teaching has considerably less risk than being a cop. Being a cop is dangerous work. It's not just the criminals like most people think, probably the biggest danger to a cop isn't some idiot with a gun but rather simply driving to a call with lights and sirens on. More cops get killed in car accidents because people don't pull over and yield than are shot by criminals. At the same time teachers are responsible for not just teaching kids but also for essentially babysitting them for 8 hours a day and giving them the attention their parents often don't. That's no easy task given how many truly apathetic parents are out there. Too many parents simply don't care about their children. The stress of dealing with dozens of students and their parents can't be underestimated.

As for voting for cops I'd say we should also vote for teachers! I remember in high school having plenty of completely apathetic teachers who didn't give a shit about their students. These people need to be kicked out too. Getting rid of a tenured teacher is just as hard as getting rid of cop. There are plenty of bad eggs in each profession. In many ways a bad teacher is worse than a bad cop. A bad cop can usually only abuse one person at a time. A teacher on the other hand can screw up a room full of dozens of kids and condemn them to failure by not doing a good job. Also, just as there are people who become cops because they have a sick need to be on a power trip I've seen plenty of teachers who are the same way. We need to watch and expel both bad teachers and bad cops. Both represent a serious threat to society.

Somebody else said cops get little benefits. Bull!! Cops (like teachers) have better retirement plans than most people. The average police/teacher pension package is doing better than the 401k offered to most non-government workers.

As for the person who said cops in big cities make more money, check your facts! The New York Police Department (the largest in the country) starts at $34,000. By comparison, a certified school teacher with no experience in New York City starts at $39,000.

Finally, I love how so many supposedly open-minded people consider all cops to be corrupt, racist, etc. They make huge sweeping statements about an entire group based solely on the actions of a few people. How is this any different than some redneck saying all African-Americans are gangbangers, crack dealers, etc?? Just as some cops are corrupt there are African-Americans who deal crack. Do most of them deal crack? Of course not, just like most cops are not corrupt. It's no different. Just because a few people in a given population are complete wastes of humanity doesn't mean everyone in that group is. It's funny how it's OK to make sweeping statements about one group but not another. Try acting like the open minded person you claim to be.

I'm suggesting that blanket hostility towards all cops is way out of line.

Pity you can't see that.

Neither did Andrew