What you won't see on indymedia

FYI:

I, works for me, have been an active member of the Palestine indymedia site for many months (go to http://jerusalem.indymedia.org/ and do a search for "works for me"). I am not anyone else, and certainly not "smash the left" -- I do not approve of spamming, but neither do I approve of censorship.

most of the reactionaries who come to this site are just jackasses who have *way* too much time on their hands. some, like smashtheleft, have some odd vendetta against their fantasy-land idea of what berkeley is and how sf indymedia needs to be about "free speech," whatever that is in real life, so they spam the site over and over and over and over and over again in some prepubescent attempt to prove a point. others, like Racer X, don't seem to spam so much as to just accuse the site of censorship when it's really about hiding spam, and generally add little to any dialogue. "works for me" at least has some very valid points. that person is able to dialogue, doesn't get rabidly irrational and upset at some strawman idea of what "leftists" are the the two aforementioned conservatives, and is generally alright it seems.

anyway, what exactly is free speech in the real world? conservatives like to be "realistic," so i'd love it if one were able to give me a really well thought out argument and explanation for pure, unadulterated "free speech" in a forum like sf indymedia or indymedia overall.

Could someone please explain how my "hidden" comment meets the requirements for editing as descrbied by Nessie:

Nessie: "We are not in favor of censorship, we are in favor of free speech. If you want to post racist, sexist, homophobic propaganda, go right ahead. But don't do it on our site. It's a big net. Put that crap somewhere else. We wont interfere. We couldn't if we wanted to."

My "offensive" comment:
"Nessie--
Then by your own words, you are suggesting the judge in this case was "crooked" because her legal ruling differs from your opinion. Say, did you pass the bar in the California or another state?"

How is this racist, sexist, or homophobic? I admit it is sarcastic, but I fail to see why a site that promotes independent voices would object to my commentary. Please, tell me I'm not crazy and that sfindymedia is editing the independence out of its site.

If you really have done anything with the Palestine site you will note how the spam made it unreadable for awhile. We have to hide the right wings posts or nobody else will post, but when we dont have much time and are doing this quickly, other stuff might get hidden. Also, I think there was briefly some filter thing on the site to deal with spam and that may have hidden your comments. Anyway, once all the right wing trolls go away there shouldnt be as much of a risk of real posts/comments being hidden.

The community here has a very definite bias that tends towards overt censorship. What is sad is that it is unrecongized in this forum -- at least publicly by those who wield the power.

I am not a right-winger, and as I believe I have stated in this forum in the past, I am not a Republican, I have never voted Republican in a presidential election, and have seldom done so otherwise. To categorize any opinion different than yours as "right-wing" says a lot about your view of the world.

You should also understand that for the rest of us see the distinctions you can not, your actions paint you as prejudiced as the hard-core "right-wingers" you so vehemently denounce.

If you believe your ideas to be the most potent and truthful, then I do not see why any "right-wing" rhetoric or any dissenting opinion should ever be hidden. All that does is suggest your ideas are weak and need censorship in order to survive.

The idea that because you've never voted Republican you're thus not right-wing is absurd.

Have you ever heard of the "Libertarian" Party?
Have you ever heard of Sam Nunn?

The far-right's attacks on Clinton have been successful in concealing the fundamental nature of Clintonianism. Clinton was Wall Street's man. He pushed austerity just as the bond markets demanded. He gave Robert Rubin, the millionaire investment banker, top slot. He pushed through NAFTA, and cheered Argentina's "market miracle" (oops!). I could go on. It's only in America that someone holding these views could be seen as anything but "right wing".

As far as I can tell, 'works for me', you're a true Clintonian.

Clintonites, like "libertarians", like to fashion themselves as social liberals because they support abortion rights and don't believe gays should be assaulted. But then they explain that on "non-social" issues they are "more conservative" (read: they wish to promote capital accumulation virtually at all costs).

But a little question: What could be more 'social' than production under capitalism?

Well at least you admitted your bias--that's a postitive step.

nessie--

As we both now, the hiding of comments are not just limited to Smash, JoJo, and most recently myself.

I can attest to having been called names and "suffering" attacks on my commentary not much different from Smashes diatribes against the Left. I believe turn-about is fair play--one standard fits all. Do you?

Further, while I might agree that certain posts from Smash deserve to be hidden, Smash has also posted genuine political dissent which is undeserving of such treatment. I thought the indymedia moderator policy allows the censoring of specific kinds of comments but does not permit banning individuals altogether?

:: sigh ::

It's happening again. This rather innocuous thread has been targeted for removal by preventing the accurate updating of its commentary status. Why?
http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/07/136412_comment.php#136413

It would be great if we could read through posts and figure out if they are pure drivel or good arguments but with the spam attacks, a lot of the hiding is just trying to determine if the poster is one of a few known spamers and then hiding all of their posts.

The standard for comments has to be something like this since we really don’t have that much time to filter the site (I hid 100 comments and posts mostly by STL last night but I only took 15 min to do it so it was bound to take away some of STLs occasional well thought out posts.)

For comments I think we tend to be pretty nonideological when it comes to taking them down. As for posts we tend to hide things that are right wing in any form but I would call that moderation more than censorship since it keeps the direction of the site.

Moderating indymedia is a little controversial but looking at the comments and use stats for the site, I think its a necessity. STL, JoJo and company were using a bulletin board that did not censor before they started attacking our site. If you look at that site (before it got shut down) it was almost 90% JoJo, Smashy, Eric etc.. making racist statements and threatening to kill Leftists. You could try to argue with the trolls who take over sites like this but they always seem to have a lot of time on their hands and the end result is a site that exists solely for them (nobody else posts since nobody wants to wade through the drivel).

When looking into solutions for Indymedia spam I came across a lot of articles written for nonpolitical web sites. Even for sites with logon and ratings, trolls are a serious problem. On purely tech sites there are people who try to make friends with people and start divisions just for the enjoyment value of creating conflict. A normal way of creating this conflict is to act inappropriate (posting porn to a linux discussion thread for example), complain about censorship and then try to rally half of the site against the other half pretending that the issue is free speech. In most cases the goal is just disruption.

I have no way of knowing if you are really bothered by censorship or if you are trying to waste peoples time for political reasons (or just for fun). If you are really worried about ideas being hidden just write good comments and argue about those issues. Occasionally during a serious spam attack, slightly right wing posts may be hidden by accident since its really hard to tell who is posting. Its easy to ask us to only hide their really bad stuff but when they post things on other sites and this site about how their goal is to take over and disrupt the site…

I personally (speaking separately from any role I play in Indymedia SF) think that the goal of Indymedia should be movement building, networking and outreach on the moderate to radical left. Censoring things has issues from both the outreach side (how can you convince people when you cant argue with them) and also can create divisions in the left if censoring becomes too ideological (I may not agree with the Green Party, PETA, the Teamsters etc.. on many or even most issues but I think part of the role of movement building is to get discussions happening in a few easy to find locations) Of couse Indymedia also functions to distribute local news so nonpolitical local news also seems like something that should be encouraged.

I fail to see how a thread with two comments is taking focus away from the site. There's no flaming in the thread, it's not being hit with repeated spam, in fact it would probably drop off the radar on its own accord -- so why even bother with such a minor thread?

Censorship, from wherever it originates, whatever the intention, is morally unjust. I fail to see how a site which promotes justice resorts to such tactics.

Perhaps the moderators need to drink less coffee and spend more time doing yoga. Take a minute and read the posts! There's nothing harmful in the thread other than the management it is receiving.

I think the most honest thing that can be done to promote/clarify what sfindymedia is and what its goals are is to remove "independent" from the site's name.

Independent media implies freedom of thought, of viewpoint, of censorship. It does not imply the pomotion of any specific agenda or issue -- at least that's what I naively thought. I'm willing to bet the many (most?) of us believe the same.

In all seriousness, perhaps renaming the site to "anarchistmedia", "labormedia" or "antiglobalismmedia" would remove the site's implied moral obligation to be fair to any other idea than its own.

It doesnt mean "independent" as in not bound to any preconceived mission. It means it is independent from corporate media. Like an independent music label. It isnt going to put out nazi punk rock albums. But it is still independent. Understand?

"Censorship, from wherever it originates, whatever the intention, is morally unjust. I fail to see how a site which promotes justice resorts to such tactics."

That sounds great in theory but have you ever looked at a truely uncensored discussion thread. A few remain ok for awhile until the spammers find it but sooner or later they become unreadable (like usenet, or even worse the message boards on CNN and Reuters)

As for spending awhile hiding things, thats not too realistic. Indymedia is all volunteer and most of us have full time jobs etc.. and there are more pressing tasks like basic sysadmin and code related issues that also needs to be dealt with.

I am only involved with Indymedia since I think a nonsectarian radical left discussion thread helps build radical political movements. Right wing people (LIbertarians, Christian Conservatives etc..) tend to have more time on their hands and more computer access than the rest of the population. There are plenty of uncensored Bay Area discussion boards (like Craigs List etc..) but I spend time doing Indymedia activities since it tends to focus more on the activist community.

To be fair, sfindymedia doesn't target the activist community, but a subset of that group with a very specific viewpoint.

Indymedia clearly has a hard time resolving my viewpoint, yet I am an activist (albeit of the online variety). The moderators would do well to consider that they are not THE representatives of the activist community any more than Sharon is THE representative of Judaism.

You might want to consider, during the next rally in San Francisco with a few hundred participiants, where is everyone else? They're probably at home, excluded from "your community" because it no longer supports independent thought -- it no longer is inclusive.

imcista --

Even "independent from corporate media" implies truly independent thought. As an original thinker, I may come to similar conclusions that appear in some main-stream media, or I may not. Chomsky is mainstream, so if I agreed some of Chomsky's ideas, would I also be main-stream.

Your standards regarding independent thought are highly dubious and are in desperate need of reflection.

Works for me's an original thinker...

and George W's a genius.

Nessie, I happen to have it on good authority that what you said is not the opinion of other moderators -- let's just say a little birdy told me.

You don't represent Indymedia anymore than I do, the difference is that you have power and you wield it in exactly the same manner as those you are against.

You really ought to listen to the more moderate voices -- your approach is righteous in all the wrong ways.

What work?

Be specific.

I don't consider it work though. Dialoging here is nothing more than a recreational activity.

Work is applying a force over a distance. Work is completing assigned tasks on time. Work is collecting a paycheck, providing for a family, and being tired at the end of the day. Work is being thankful you have a job. Work is being a productive member of society. Work is feeling good about yourself.

Don't call what you do here something it is not. Call it what it really is:

Entertainment.

Work is not having any power in your life. Is where you are overworked and underpaid. Makes you tired so you can't come home and play with the kids. Is where you get shit on by your asshole supervisors all day. Is what you don't have, if you are a victim of the recession and the crappy economy.

This is for most people anyways. I don't think this applies to Kenneth Lay and Co.

"Work is not having any power in your life."

Nice hyperbole. Ridiculous, but imaginitive.

"Is where you are overworked and underpaid."

An example of "worker power" can be applied here. It's called "looking for a better job".

"Makes you tired so you can't come home and play with the kids."

Yep, that's what life is all about, playing with the kids. Play with the kids on time off, holidays, and weekends. Life isn't supposed to be about getting enough "playtime". One day you might learn that.

"Is where you get shit on by your asshole supervisors all day."

Bitter, bitter, bitter. Work your way up the ladder and become the "asshole supervisor". Or stay here, on indybay, and just be an asshole.

"Is what you don't have, if you are a victim of the recession and the crappy economy."

This is where the second word of the day comes into play. Education.

Capitalism is all about fucking the other guy over to feel better about yourself. But since everyone is doing this nobody ever really ends up on top. Not only can most people not work their way up, but even if you do, things dont get that much better. It’s kinda like a shit sandwich, more bread makes it easier to stomach the shit but in the end your still eating shit.

I must comment on some points.

>Our attempt to promote justice will fail if we permit it to be shouted down by a couple morons with Tourette’s Syndrome.

I still maintain that if your message is strong enough, all the shouting in the world couldn't drown it out. The message is either strong enough to be heard over the voices of dissent, or...it...is...not.

I am in total agreement that this site is in the hands of those who contribute. In that regard, I am wondering, of those who do more of the work at SF-IMC, do they in turn get more of the say as to how things are done?

>It’s not censorship. It’s editing.

I call it censorship for the reason I gave above. But this is just a difference of opinion.

>I can attest to having been called names...

I agree. I've determined recently not to participate in that anymore. Attacking my commentary is open season. The name calling thing is just uncalled for.

>If your work doesn't entertain you, don't succumb to alienation. Do something else.

I once had an older gentleman tell me that his secret of life was that he enjoyed his work, and that if I didn't enjoy what I was doing, get out of it, find out what interested me and go at it full force. I think that's good advise for anyone who is able to do so. It's not about money, it's about desire. Do what you love, the money will follow.

Che, find out what you love, man, and go at it. I wish you the best.

>Capitalism is all about fucking the other guy over to feel better about yourself.

I disagree, anon. I don't believe most people think that way. If that's the case, no one here needs to be active about destroying capitalism. Just sit back and let it happen. Anything you do to try to assist its fall will probably only gum up the works.

Oh, you have your corporate climbers. Some do it honestly, others don't. What else is new. Some machine operators in the factory work hard, others are looking for quitting time and pay day. What else is new.

It's the individual. I don't believe most people are out to "fuck(ing) the other guy over to feel better about yourself." In the end, that's untimately self-defeating.

Hmm. I've worked at the corporate HQ of over 50 Fortune 500 companies as a software development consultant and I never saw one company where hard work could get you anywhere. If you are good at what you do, they won't promote you exactly because your good at what you do(if they promote you they just lost a good worker). Promotions happen to people who are not good at what they are doing but shmooze after work with higher ups over drinks. Managerial capitalism is a zero sum game, where the competition is mainly personal and even the profits of the company itself are secondary (at least for middle management where the numbers are vague anyways).Once you get near the top the board is supposed to care about profits but since people only look at the short term, its all about moving around money and announcing "revolutionary" changes in direction that usually amount to paraphrasing stuff from business magazines.

Yea, you have the "freedom" to choose where you work. You have the "freedom" to work at this shitty job or that shitty job. In the US, most individual people are making around 25k a year. If they are lucky, you can get benefits. A 1/4 of the people in the US have no healthcare. The ones that do are getting their premiums raised or their coverage decreased. Only 9 percent of workers in the private sector are in Unions. Most people don't have the protection of a Union. Even before the current recession, real wages were decreasing or stagnant the last 20 years. That's a fact, worker. So, I don't know what kind of "worker" you are. But, obviously someone who is in management or a kiss ass management wannabe who wants the right to hire and fire people at will.

And I'm not against working hard, ya dumbass. I work plenty hard and so do most people. I'm against the overworked, underpaid, more than 40 plus hours a week kind. People should have more vacation, decent childcare, a 35 hour work week and money to spare to buy nice things. They shouldn't have to try and compete with their fellow workers to get ahead.

>Promotions happen to people who are not good at what they are doing but shmooze after work with higher ups over drinks.

While I'm sure your prespective holds a great deal of weight for you, I have to wonder if the ones being promoted are really not good at what they do. How many businesses survive by saying "Hey, I'm going to find ass kissers who don't know their left hand from their right and promote them." There's a recipe for disaster.

It is possible to become so good at a particular job that it is in the best interest of the company to keep you there. If I were in that position, they need to make sure they pay me considerably, or I'm going down the road to the competition and help put my former company out of business. But, I'm that way.

>Managerial capitalism is a zero sum game.

I've never found that to be the case.

>..the board is supposed to care about profits but since people only look at the short term,..

This is an example of a board who will bankrupt the company.

anon, we must agree to disagree, but I do appreciate your imput and insight.

"How many businesses survive by saying "Hey, I'm going to find ass kissers who don't know their left hand from their right and promote them." There's a recipe for disaster. "

Of course it’s a recipe for disaster, look at the state of the world. Anyway, its not a question of businesses saying "how can I find a good ass kisser?", its a question of business men saying "how can I promote someone without jeopardizing my own position". How do businesses survive if this is how they work? The success or failure of a business is usually up to the workers and most managers just get in the way.

As for being able to use ones status as a good worker to get ahead, that only works if there is a huge difference between workers and if the employee has other alternatives. If a manager needs to find someone to manage the making of widgets, and one worker seems smart but isn’t a great widget maker they are an obvious choice. The rest of the widget makers don’t get anything out of this since unless they were to act as a group (through a Union for example) they individually have little power. Changing jobs could also be an option, but it’s hard to find a job without taking time off to look, and people usually have enough commitments that this is not an option.

In some jobs the situation is even worse. A worker on a H1 visa, for example, cant change jobs(in some cases this even applies to promotions) without risking deportation. Companies will even use their sponsorship of the Visa to make it so the employee will owe that money back if they leave.

Now if you're feelin' kinda low 'bout the dues you've been paying
Future's coming much too slow
And you wanna run but somehow you just keep on stayin'
Can't decide on which way to go
Yeah, yeah, yeah


I understand about indecision
But I don't care if I get behind
People livin' in competition
All I want is to have my peace of mind.

Now you're climbin' to the top of the company ladder
Hope it doesn't take too long
Can'tcha you see there'll come a day when it won't matter
Come a day when you'll be gone


I understand about indecision
But I don't care if I get behind
People li vin' in competition
All I want is to have my peace of mind.

Take a look ahead, take a look ahead, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah...

Now everybody's got advice they just keep on givin'
Doesn't mean too much to me
Lot's of people out to make-believe they're livin'
Can't decide who they should be.


I understand about indecision
But I don't care if I get behind
People li vin' in competition
All I want is to have my peace of mind.

Take a look ahead, take a look ahead. Look ahead.

Born down in a dead man's town
The first kick I took was when I hit the ground
You end up like a dog that's been beat too much
Till you spend half your life just covering up

Born in the U.S.A.
I was born in the U.S.A.
I was born in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.

Got in a little hometown jam
So they put a rifle in my hand
Sent me off to a foreign land
To go and kill the yellow man

Born in the U.S.A.
I was born in the U.S.A.
I was born in the U.S.A.
I was born in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.

Come back home to the refinery
Hiring man says "Son if it was up to me"
Went down to see my V.A. man
He said "Son, don't you understand"

I had a brother at Khe Sahn fighting off the Viet Cong
They're still there, he's all gone

He had a woman he loved in Saigon
I got a picture of him in her arms now

Down in the shadow of the penitentiary
Out by the gas fires of the refinery
I'm ten years burning down the road
Nowhere to run ain't got nowhere to go

Born in the U.S.A.
I was born in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.
I'm a long gone Daddy in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.
I'm a cool rocking Daddy in the U.S.A.

"I've worked at the corporate HQ of over 50 Fortune 500 companies as a software development consultant and I never saw one company where hard work could get you anywhere."

Why should we believe you? No evidence and therefore, no credibility.

"You're a kiss ass, not a worker."

What the hell would you know about working?

"In the US, most individual people are making around 25k a year."

Guess what? In Cameroon the average household income is less than $2000 per year. Consider yourself lucky.

"If they are lucky, you can get benefits. A 1/4 of the people in the US have no healthcare. The ones that do are getting their premiums raised or their coverage decreased. Only 9 percent of workers in the private sector are in Unions. Most people don't have the protection of a Union. Even before the current recession, real wages were decreasing or stagnant the last 20 years."

You are a whiner. Someone could give you a job taste testing crème-puffs for 15 minutes a day at a salary of a million dollars a year and you'd whine that you'd still have to pay taxes on it, that your tongue is sore, and all the empty calories are making you fat.

"And I'm not against working hard … . I work plenty hard "

Really? Don't you work in an office? Does your boss know you spend so much time debating mindlessly on the internet? For someone who works sooo hard I can't imagine how you have so much time to post your drivel here.

"People should have more vacation, decent childcare, a 35 hour work week and money to spare to buy nice things"

And jobs taste testing crème-puffs. Don't you have some fruit to pick or something?

"A case can be made that what we need to do most is not destroy capitalism, but to build alternatives, so that it’s collapse wont be fatal to the economy."

When exactly, are we anarchists expecting this "collapse of capitalism" to occur. I'd like a heads up so I can get a jump cashing in my T-bills if ya don't mind.

Oh, and while we're posting songs:

Oh, I'd like to teach the world to sing,
In perfect harmony.
I'd like to buy the world a coke,
And keep it company.
(That's the song I sing).

Oh wait. Here's a better one:

EMINEM LYRICS

"If I Had..."

Life.. by Marshall Mathers
What is life?
Life is like a big obstacle
put in front of your optical to slow you down
And everytime you think you gotten past it
it's gonna come back around and tackle you to the damn ground
What are friends?
Friends are people that you think are your friends
But they really your enemies, with secret indentities
and disguises, to hide they true colors
So just when you think you close enough to be brothers
they wanna come back and cut your throat when you ain't lookin
What is money?
Money is what makes a man act funny
Money is the root of all evil
Money'll make them same friends come back around
swearing that they was always down
What is life?
I'm tired of life
I'm tired of backstabbing ass snakes with friendly grins
I'm tired of committing so many sins
Tired of always giving in when this bottle of Henny wins
Tired of never having any ends
Tired of having skinny friends hooked on crack and mini-thins
I'm tired of this DJ playing YOUR shit when he spins
Tired of not having a deal
Tired of having to deal with the bullshit without grabbing the steel
Tired of drowning in my sorrow
Tired of having to borrow a dollar for gas to start my Monte Carlo
I'm tired of motherfuckers spraying shit and dartin off
I'm tired of jobs startin off at five fifty an hour
then this boss wanders why I'm smartin off
I'm tired of being fired everytime I fart and cough
Tired of having to work as a gas station clerk
for this jerk breathing down my neck driving me bezerk
I'm tired of using plastic silverware
Tired of working in Building Square
Tired of not being a millionaire

But if I had a million dollars
I'd buy a damn brewery, and turn the planet into alcoholics
If I had a magic wand, I'd make the world suck my dick
without a condom on, while I'm on the john
If I had a million bucks
it wouldn't be enough, because I'd still be out
robbing armored trucks
If I had one wish
I would ask for a big enough ass for the whole world to kiss

I'm tired of being white trash, broke and always poor
Tired of taking pop bottles back to the party store
I'm tired of not having a phone
Tired of not having a home to have one in if I did have it on
Tired of not driving a BM
Tired of not working at GM, tired of wanting to be him
Tired of not sleeping without a Tylenol PM
Tired of not performing in a packed coliseum
Tired of not being on tour
Tired of fucking the same blonde whore after work
in the back of a Contour
I'm tired of faking knots with a stack of ones
Having a lack of funds and resorting back to guns
Tired of being stared at
I'm tired of wearing the same damn Nike Air hat
Tired of stepping in clubs wearing the same pair of Lugz
Tired of people saying they're tired of hearing me rap about drugs
Tired of other rappers who ain't bringin half the skill as me
saying they wasn't feeling me on "Nobody's As Ill As Me"
I'm tired of radio stations telling fibs
Tired of J-L-B saying "Where Hip-Hop Lives"

But if I had a million dollars
I'd buy a damn brewery, and turn the planet into alcoholics
If I had a magic wand, I'd make the world suck my dick
without a condom on, while I'm on the john
If I had a million bucks
it wouldn't be enough, because I'd still be out
robbing armored trucks
If I had one wish
I would ask for a big enough ass for the whole world to kiss

You know what I'm saying?
I'm tired of all of this bullshit
Telling me to be positive
How'm I 'sposed to be positive when I don't see shit positive?
Know what I'm sayin?
I rap about shit around me, shit I see
Know what I'm sayin? Right now I'm tired of everything
Tired of all this player hating that's going on in my own city
Can't get no airplay, you know what I'm sayin?
But ey, it's cool though, you know what I'm sayin?
Just fed up
That's my word

Eric, as you said It’s better to do something about your problems at work than complain. Unions are one option but if they take that away that there is always sabotage.

Lets say we could get sysadmins into top positions at major US corporations (shit most geeks are at least libertarians so we already have that one down). First time activists are best since they can pass background checks but most background checks cant pick up most things anyway. Now lets say the company where you work decided to do something that you can't stand. Random errors in a given department are pretty easy and a job threatening shutdown is always a possibility nationwide when shit really hits the fan (like a US invasion of Iraq). The funny part about that is that a shutdown is LEGAL, all you have to do is leave your job and since most big companies only have one person per machine, once anything goes wrong a new sysadmin would have to take weeks to figure out how things worked. Since average employment periods tend to be pretty short these days there wouldn’t even be any risk for future jobs; just don’t list that job on your resume and say you took some time off.

The great part about corporate infiltration is that its a win-win situation. When companies try to ferret out rogue employees, the quality of their employees drop off due to the much smaller pool to choose from. And by making employees feel less welcoming due to the paranoia, the end result of a backlash is that you suddenly have more employees willing to break things.

Since many workers in the US tend to hate their companies far more than activists on the outside, this type of action is possible and already occurring on some level in most industries. Especially during downturns and layoffs.

I’m not sure about Cameroon but Nigerians know how to exert pressure:
------------------------
From the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_2118000/2118097.stm
------------------------
Hundreds of Nigerian women have stormed an oil plant in Escravos island, off the south-western coast.
They have disrupted operations but oil is still being exported, according to Reuters news agency.
ChevronTexaco has confirmed the incident in a statement but has not revealed the reason for the protest.
Such incidents are common in Nigeria's oil-producing areas.
Locals often kidnap oil workers and demand ransom money from the oil companies.
Sometimes they also demand infrastructure, such as roads, schools or clinics.
Jobs
The hostages are usually released unharmed but the oil companies deny paying ransom money.
Unnamed Chevron officials have told Reuters that the women were demanding local facilities and jobs and contracts for their children.
"The protesters who barricaded key installations in the tank farm, have disrupted very important operational activities at the facility," the Nigerian branch of ChevronTexaco said in a statement.
In April, 43 oil workers were taken hostage at a nearby ChevronTexaco oil plant.

You should get out more and meet "regular" people, with lives and kids and mortgages. They're not the seething embers of revolution you seem to think they are. Get this, some of them even consider the people they work with family!

Now, if you really cared about the success of any idea you believed in, you would want to look at it from a completely objective viewpoint and openly acknowledge all weakness. Anarchists (at least in sfindymedia), like all other failed political movements--believe their ideology is flawless.

Meetings and flags and pamphlets are really nice, but when you don't have anything to show for your beliefs, how can you expect the public to take you seriously?

If workers DID start to see each other as family it would be much easier to organize since scabs are clearly not family.

These days the only people who consider their jobs family are those with little life outside of work. Executives who spend too much time at work think everyone else sees them as family (and HR tries with their group building activities) but behind every corporate smile is someone waiting for the right moment to slip the knife in and get a promotion.

Of course everyone has friends at work but a lot of what you do with friends is complain about how much you hate the boss/company. Hense the huge popularity of FuckedCompany.com and the like. Just about every company has a hate site by employees and some companies have 3 or 4 sites set up by employees to vent.

You have a real attitude problem . Are you one of those people who projects their personal issues onto the "spiritually bankrupt" world at large?

I really feel sorry for you; having to carry such misplaced anger and letting it sour your experiences--such a waste.

"You have a real attitude problem . Are you one of those people who projects their personal issues onto the "spiritually bankrupt" world at large? "

Hmm, aren’t you the one hanging out on a Left wing discussion board looking for conflict...

Anyway, if you are surprised or feel sorry about a normal hatred of ones job you would probably get really depressed if you tried to read http://www.fuckedcompany.com or any other site where people don’t pull punches and are angry for nonpolitical reasons. I personally get less depressed when I read those sites since corporate greed helps build radical movements much better than anything we can do.

The whole idea of treating ones work as family sounds very much like something that went out in the 50s or 60s. These days, economists talk about how lifetime employment held Capitalism back and people should get used to changing jobs (hence getting laid off) every few years. There is a good amount of talk in business magazines about a decline in employee loyalty, but companies can not have it both ways. Getting “lean and mean” destroys loyalty among remaining employees. Quick booms and busts created by VCs that know they can come out ahead even if 2 out of 3 of their investments go under, creates instability among workers and undermines any ties a worker might have to their company. Even the most conservative Republican voting employees I know (who are right out of school and trust their managers), have no feeling of being tied to their current job (they always seem to be looking for better jobs online). These days employees may feel a bond to their coworkers(who they may see at future jobs) or their industry, but this in no way resembles loyalty to ones boss or company.

The main challenge this presents to radicals is not getting people to dislike Capitalism; once people start having commitments, the instability of the work world does that for us. The challenge is to figure out ways that industries (rather than workplaces )can be organized. Also the new level of cynicism among workers can be a challenge too (there is a “this the worst of all possible systems except for any other” mentality that makes organizing challenging).

You got that right. Do you know what the fouth largest industry in Nigeria is? Mail fraud. It's called the Nigerian 4-1-9 scam and it's endorsed by the corrupt Nigerian government. You anarchists and anti-government chawbacons would fit in nicely over there.

http://home.rica.net/alphae/419coal/

These guys come up with some really creative stories to scam you out of your money and their are a lot of idiots that fall for it. It's a billion dollar industry in Africa. They look at it the same way we have telemarketers here. Only difference is telemarketers are trying to sell you a product or service. These guys just wanna rip your dumb ass off.

Thanx for the info, Eric. I've gotten bunches of those and had heard about what they were, but the info you provided is great.

Just like the people who run money scams on older people, especially widows, these people need to be strung up.

I did have a buddy of mine who actually had cooresponding e-mail with one other these mailers who claimed they needed his bank account number to deposit millions, and of course he'd get 10% no questions asked. They wanted him to fly to London or Paris and to buy a ticket and meet them there. He told them if they had so much damn money why couldn't they buy him the ticket. He received no more cooespondence.

Wow, now there is an original way to bring hard needed money into the country. Hell, if its wants for two bit swindlers there wouldnt be the large corporations we have grown to love today. As a supporter of free enterprise and "pulling one's self up by ones bootstraps" I would have thought you would be excited by the redistribution of money from the US to Nigeria through mail fraud rather than international aid.

"Some of the greatest names in American history made their fortunes through shameless chicanery—Vanderbilt, Morgan, Rockefeller, Stanford, Gould, Kennedy. But you don't have to be a blue blood to succeed at financial swindling. America is the land of opportunity, a place where a poor Italian immigrant named Charles Ponzi could rise from rags to riches by inventing a scam so beautiful that it still bears his name. "
http://hypocrisytoday.com/crooks-r.html

Scam artists are not exclusive to the USA. They are plentiful throughout the world and throughout history. Someone's always wanting to beat the system to make a quick buck.

Interesting article on Ponzi. There seems to be a lot of heat lately on the Securities and Exchange Commission over the latest corporate cheats. When FDR set up the SEC, does anyone remember who the first Chariman was? It was Joseph Kennedy. The modern day equivalent of that would be to put Tony Saprano in charge of the SEC. In the Saprano's, they call it "pump and dump". It was called "stock pooling" in Kennedy's day, but its essentially the same thing. Several were up in arms when FDR appointed Kennedy as Chairman. Why would you want the fox guarding the henhouse? FDR's explanation was essentially it takes a crook to catch a crook.

If there as some of you who want to try and pin corruption and crooks on the USA or capatilism, go for it. But, your pissing into the wind. It's been going on under monarchy's, socialism, communism, capatilism, fascism, republics, and every other "ism" you can name. It would happen under anarchy, too. It not the system, it's the individual.

I feel no jealosy towards the super-rich. Some of these people are the most miserable people who have ever lived. They must worry constantly about those who would try and steal their fortunes. Their every thought is money, money, money. To me, that's a sad existance. The others I feel for are those who want to strip the rich and redistribute wealth, making everyone equally as miserable as everyone else. Should it ever happen (as similar things have happened many times in history) it will be short lived. Things just don't change that much. There's nothing new under the sun.

No, thanx. I'm quite happy just being Joe Average.

You're far from being "Joe average", Brigg. Most people in the US don't make nearly as much as you do and have an interest in overthrowing this crappy system. You said you're in the finance industry, right? Quit trying to sound so humble. People in the financial industry know the game is fixed.

And believe what you want about how corruption is "inherent" in all socieities and governments. That's an easy excuse and/or reason to use to try and justify inequality around the world.

I appreciate your prespective. I'm not rich comparitively to others in the USA, I'm not poor comparitively to others in the USA. I'm middle America. I'm Joe Average.

Some folks is even blacker than me,
Some folks is ever whiter than me,
I got myself caught in the middle somewhere,
And that's just where I want to be.

-- Todd Rundgren - Something/Anything - circa 1978?


Compared to the rest of the world, the USA is rich. I'm thankful to be here. I think we as Americans have a unique opportunity to try and lift others up. That may seem hokey to many of you, but that's OK. It's just another viewpoint.

And I'm not trying to "justify inequality around the world". I'm just pointing out how it is. The wealthy and those in power have been rooted-out over and over again. It's just always short lived. For that reason, I don't see how redistributing wealth will work. Human nature takes over. People are drawn to those who have leadership abilities, magnetic personalities or some other intangibles. These people become prominent. The process starts all over again.

I understand your fustration. I'm not happy there are people on earth starving or oppressed either. But, I don't think a revolution is going to change that. Oh, it may in this corner of the world for a while, and that corner of the world for a while. But, where people are winning over oppression in one place, it's starting in another. The best thing I can do is help my neighbor. If everyone who is able would help their neighbor, eventually those who have been helped can in turn help their neighbor. One person at a time. That's what I'm saying. But making everyone equal as far as possessions, etc... or like John Lennon's "Imagine" with no countries, no possessions, no religion,... I just don't see it happening, and if it did, I don't see it making things any better. If it weren't those things, it'd be something else. It's not throwing in the towel. I'd just rather deal with what I do see.

Che, you seem very sincere in wanting to make things better. I would say in your lifetime, if you were to help make even 10 or 20 individuals lives better, you could say you were productive person. Best to you.

Median income for families with two working parents is around 44K a year. That comes to around 23-25k as individuals. If you make 100,000 dollars or more a year, you're in the top 5% income bracket. If you make 6 figures, you are in the tiny minority. Course, then there are the grossly rich, the millionaires and billionaires that make their money off the back of their workers and don't get taxed nearly enough. Where one is on the economic ladder influences their willingness to fight. I bet you're near the top. That would explain your attitude and politics.

"Most people in the US don't make nearly as much as you do and have an interest in overthrowing this crappy system. "

Damn Che, what fantasy land do you live in? Take a look at all the fat asses around your that are stuffing their faces with croissants and Starbucks double mocha lattes. Do they look like they have any interest at all in overthrowing the country? Why don't you walk up to the line at McDonalds and say, "Hey, all you overworked, underpaid fat slobs! I plan to undermine capitalism and restore freedom in this country of ours!! Who's with me??" and then watch them as they chuckle at your dumb ass and order Big Mac value meal with a diet coke.

I'm not talking about yuppies who spend all afternoon at Starbucks stroking each other's egos. As far as people who eat at McDonald's, that's what people do when they don't have time to cook. That's what happens when you have to work 40 plus hours a week and don't have the time or energy to cook for your kids. Course, most people would love to eat healthier or cook better meals for themselves, if they had the time. It's not out of choice that they dont eat right. The fight against corporate greed- better wages, Unions- is a fight for the environment and our health. Most people have an interest in fighting for all of those things.

You're a fucking elitist asshole, Eric. I don't expect people like your ass to challenge the system nor do I give a damn talking to people like you out on the streets. In fact, I'd probably just open a can of whoop ass on you.

Even fast food is most definitely a matter of choice. Not to delve to deeply into a tangent to a tangent, but various low fat / calorie items have been introduced in all of the big franchises with very few successes.

For example, about five years ago Taco Bell came out with a separate "light" menu of tacos, burritos, and fajitas. They used different tortillas, low fat sour cream, low fat cheese, etc. for apx. 50% reduction in fat as 20% reduction in calories for an additional 10 to 20 cents per item. It lasted about a year.

People eat fast food primarily because it's cheap, convenient, and most importantly, tastes good. There is plenty of space in the free market for a healthier venue of fast-food, but the catch is it must be equal to or surpass traditional fast food in the qualities consumers look for.

Yet you blame capitalism system for the result of free choice in our culture. Well, there are plenty of capitalist countries with fast food and despite this, the culture has a better diet. Using an economic system for political purposes to address social problems is convoluted to say the least.

A fair economic system is one that is "amoral" (to use nessie's description) in the same way that all infrastructure should be. Access to the economy should be rigorously expanded to ensure equally opportunity for all, but the choice on how to uses those opportunities should be left up to the individual -- even if their choices do not meet with your approval.

--And to hehe--
You're only half right about my motivations -- there is a side of me that wants to see/create/participate in ideas that are designed to succeed, ex. Habitat for Humanity. I was hoping an indymedia site based in San Francisco my provide me what I was looking for, but then I found this sad state of affairs. The other side you to acknowledge the flaws in your hopelessly romantic notions of utopian society. I guess that part of me is trying to goad you into putting your ideas into practice, knowing that you will fail or compromise; becoming a capitalist by choice. Once that happens, you'll be more open to what me and other non-Marxist/Anarchists have been saying.

You think that big corporations like Taco Bell that try to market a "healthier" alternative is proof that there is room for "better food" in the market. You're a joke and not even worth debating. I doubt there is anything healthy at all from Taco Bell or any other fast food place for that matter. And I'm talking in terms of calories, nutrients, fat and carbohydrate content. All that fast food junk is filled with preservatives, high in fat (even the "light" fajitas) and fried, to top it off. And, of course, there are fast food companies in other countries. It's called imperialism. It's what you love.

Che--
The point was, if consumers went for the healthiers options, it would have encouraged fast food corporations to go even further in that direction and to compete (healthier, cheaper, faster, tastier, etc).

Consumer choice is the driving factor in Captialism and it is what upsets you the most. You don't like the choices people make -- you want to correct (control) their choices for them.

Che--

...and there is room in the market for healthier options, but as of today there is no comparable "healthy" alternative to shakes, burgers, and fries that is the equal in cost, convenience, and taste. When such an equivalent menu appears, then healthy items gain the advantage because the offer something the competing food items do not. The space is there, but the products are not.

Well if you are looking for a health alternative, you can always go to Subway, they have 7 Sandwiches with 6 Grams of Fat or less. The guy Jared loss about 250 lbs eating Subway Sandwiches.

"You're a fucking elitist asshole, Eric. I don't expect people like your ass to challenge the system"

I hate to tell you this punk, but the majority of people out on the streets are just like me. You're obviously out of touch with reality. You don't know who I am or what I believe in. I could just be feeding you to watch you run your mouth, which you're obviously very good at.

I haven't heard you come up with even a single useful idea to make things better or fix any of these problems you rant about. Basically, you've got nothing useful to say, do you?

"In fact, I'd probably just open a can of whoop ass on you."

Big talk with the anonymity of the internet as your friend. You're probably just some little 20 year old punk college student so I'll let it pass. But I really can't see some whiny little bitch like you whoopin' my ass. If you even tried it would be like another in Quebrada del Yuro. But I won't ruin your little daydream and tell you about myself. You might piss your pants.

--nessie, let me rephrase that

In my opinion, a fair economic system is without a political or philosophical agenda, a system of self-correcting equilibrium shaped by itself, ala evolution (nessie has desribed evolution as "ammoral" and I agree)

Good point, Rogus--

As soon as Subway installs drive-thru window and reduces food prep times, they may be able to go toe to toe with the hambuger and taco crowd -- but they should develop more "hot" healthy food items as well.

You mentioned the problem but, then, end up blaming consumers for the failure of the market. Yes, a company or someone would have to come in and start a business with a health food alternative that is cheap, convenient and easy or "cost effective." But, therein lies the problem. You need money to do that, a lot of money. It's expensive to break into the "market." It's not the consumers faults that this hasn't happened. It's the producers/corporations faults that the market is dominated by a very few companies. And of course they aren't going to produce healthy food, if they don't think there is money in it. Thus, you need to smash the market.

My my my, what a big, bad reactionary mouth you have. It needs to get smacked. Any sisters or female comrades want to take a whack at him?

I know how regular people are. I used to be one. I come from a working class family. My friends are regular people. I get along with regular people just fine at work and in society in general. And I talk to people about politics too and they are more in agreement with me than not. They just aren't as active as me. And you are not "regular." You're more rightwing than most. It takes quite a bit of rightwing conviction to come on a leftist site and be an asshole all day long.

I'm in my twenties and live in Oakland. Anytime you want to make a trip over here, let me know.

Yes, that's right Che. I'm a sexist racist fascist elitist rightist istist istist istist istist. I need you to come punish me big boy. Throw some of that manly strength my way sweetheart.

I still haven't heard you say anything useful.

"It takes quite a bit of rightwing conviction to come on a leftist site and be an asshole all day long."

Does it take as much left wing conviction to come on and be an asshole all day long?

"I'm in my twenties and live in Oakland. Anytime you want to make a trip over here, let me know. "

Why don't you post your address for me Che?

Or my evil twin brother.

Yawn....you rightwingers bore me. At least start coming out to protests so we can see how tough you really are.

Che--
Franchises are grown over years, not bought and built outright--come on, you know that. There's nothing stopping anyone with the know-how from starting the operation in a single store. There are plenty of "mom & pop" bbq joints and the like in Oakland -- so we know it's possible.

That's what I thought.

of small businesses go out of business. Damn the market again.

That may be true, but there's a lot that factors into that -- good location, good business plan, targeting the right audience, getting the message out, luck, etc. The nine who fail don't all make the correct analysis, but they had the opportunity to take the risk.

I could also quote the failure rate for professional athletes, writers and musicians, but that doesn't make it an indictment of sports or the arts that success requires being more than average.

1. Click the • next to your name.
2. Click the first drop down from "all" to "hidden".
3. Click "go!"

in the case of works for me i see 3 comments which probably should not have been hidden.

ok now while you're here, send us a donation for more RAM on our server - every little bit helps! IMC, 2940 16th St #216, SF CA 94103 - thanks!

Coder--

Big thanks. I didn't realize they were censoring "hiding" comments again. Again, not because they were homophobic or sexist or hateful, or even sarcastic. They were not spam nor were they thoughtless comments. Once you've read the three comments that "they" have hidden, you start to wonder about these sfindymedia people....

>Where one is on the economic ladder influences their willingness to fight. I bet you're near the top. That would explain your attitude and politics.

Oh really, Che. To say that people vote their wallets is no new revelation. So tell me, what do you think of attorneys like Dennis Cunningham, Bill Simpich, Tony Serra, Bob Bloom, and Ben Rosenfeld? Bet they make a lot of money. Probably over that $100,000/yr level you mentioned. Did they conduct the defense for the Bari/Cherney case for the money? or because of their politics? or both? or neither?