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JEWS UNITED AGAINST ZIONISM -What is the Neturei Karta?
Neturei Karta opposed the establishment of and retain all opposition to the existence of the so-called "State of Israel"! The world must know that Zionists have illegitimately seized the name Israel and have no right to speak in the name of the Jewish people! The world must know that Zionists have illegitimately seized the name Israel and have no right to speak in the name of the Jewish people!
What is the Neturei Karta?
Neturei Karta opposed the establishment of and retain all opposition to the existence of the so-called "State of Israel"!
Neturei-Karta is the Aramaic term for "Guardians of the City. The name Neturei-Karta originates from an incident in which R. Yehudah Ha-Nassi (Rabbi Judah the Prince) sent R. Hiyya and R. Ashi on a pastoral tour of inspection. In one town they asked to see the "guardians of the city" and the city guard was paraded before them. They said that these were not the guardians of the city but is destroyers, which prompted the citizens to ask who, then, could be considered the guardians. The rabbis answered, "The scribes and the scholars," referring them to Tehillim (Psalms) Chap. 127.
(Jerusalem Talmud, Tractate Hagiga. 76c).
The name was given to a group of Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem who refused (and still refuse) to recognize the existence or authority of the so-called "State of Israel" and made (and still make) a point of publicly demonstrating their position, the position of the Torah and authentic unadulterated Judaism.
The group was founded in Jerusalem, Palestine in 1938, splitting off from Agudas Yisroel. Agudas Yisroel was established 87 years ago for the purpose of fighting Zionism. Gradually lured by money and honor they sold out to the "Golden-Calf" (see Exodus, XXXII) of Zionism. Those who wanted to maintain their faith and continue the struggle against Zionism, dissociated themselves from Agudas Yisroel and associated parties.
Over the years, a number of Neturei Karta activists and followers settled outside of Palestine. Some of the reasons that these individuals abandoned the country in which they and their families had lived for many generations (having lived there many years prior to the establishment of the illegitimate so-called "State of Israel") include; ideological refusal to live under the illegitimate heretical "Israeli" regime, them being exiled by the Zionist government for their insistence of remaining independent of the illegitimate heretical regime or them being unable to live a normal family life due to them and their families being persistently harassed, repeatedly incarcerated and many times even physically tortured by the Zionist police and agents.
This dispersion resulted in the emergence of various Neturei Karta establishments on the broader international scene. These establishments include synagogues, educational institutions, publishing houses and organizations.
The establishments in New York include three synagogues in Brooklyn (Boro Park and Williamsburg), three upstate, and organizations include the Friends of Jerusalem in NY, NY.
Neturei Karta is not - as is often alleged - a small sect or an extremist group of "ultra-orthodox" Jews. The Neturei Karta have added nothing to nor have they taken anything away from the written and oral law of the Torah as it is expressed in the Halacha and the Shulchan Aruch.
The Neturei Karta are fighting the changes and inroads made by political Zionism during the past one-hundred odd years. Guided by the rabbis of our time and under the inspiring leadership of the late Reb Amram Blau, the Neturei Karta refuse to recognize the right of anyone to establish a "Jewish" state during the present period of exile.
There are those who wish to play down the Neturei Karta and its' Torah-true beliefs. This has been attempted many a time by stating that the Neturei Karta is a minority group and that compared to other Jewish groups the Neturei Karta aren't even noticeable in terms of number.
The name Neturei Karta is a name usually given to those people who regularly pray in the Neturei Karta synagogues (Torah Ve'Yirah Jerusalem, Torah U'Tefillah London, Torah U'Tefillah NY, Beis Yehudi Upstate NY, etc.), study in or send their children to educational institutions run by Neturei Karta, or actively participate in activities, assemblies or demonstrations called by the Neturei Karta. Although it is true that the number of families which could be classified as Neturei Karta members or activists per-se is relatively small (several thousand), the number of Orthodox Jews who believe in the anti-Zionist ideology which Neturei Karta is known for, number in the hundreds of thousands.
Neturei Karta oppose the so-called "State of Israel" not because it operates secularly, but because the entire concept of a sovereign Jewish state is contrary to Jewish Law.
All the great rabbis who in accordance with Jewish Law opposed Zionism at its inception did not do so merely due to consideration of the secular lifestyles of the then Zionist leaders or even for their opposition to Torah heritage and rejection of its values and practices, but due to the fact that the entire concept of a Jewish state is in direct conflict with a number of Judaism's fundamentals.
Condemnation of and segregation from anything connected to or affiliated with the so-called modern day "State of Israel" is based on the Talmud, the key fundamental doctrine of the Oral Tradition handed down by G-d to Moses on Mt. Sinai.
The Talmud in Tractate Kesubos (p. 111a), teaches that Jews shall not use human force to bring about the establishment of a Jewish state before the coming of the universally accepted Moshiach (Messiah from the House of David).
Furthermore it states that we are forbidden to rebel against the nations and that we should remain loyal citizens and we shall not attempt to leave the exile which G-d sent us into, ahead of time.
Jews are not allowed to dominate, kill, harm or demean another people and are not allowed to have anything to do with the Zionist enterprise, their political meddling and their wars.
Neturei Karta forbid any participation with the so-called "State of Israel" or any of its subsidiaries. Neturei Karta followers do not participate in "Israeli" elections nor do they accept any aid from "Bituach Le'Umi" (Social Security), and the educational institutions of the Neturei Karta reject any form of financial support from the so-called "Va'ad HaYeshivos" (equiv. to Department of Education).
The Zionist state employs a set of chief rabbis and uses religious parties to ornament their state with a clerical image. They study the Torah with commentaries altered to clothe the words with nationalistic nuances.
Our rabbis have countless times proclaimed that it matters little which individuals or parties govern in the Zionist state because the very establishment and existence of the state itself is to be condemned and to be deplored.
The true Jews remain faithful to Jewish belief and are not contaminated with Zionism. The true Jews are against dispossessing the Arabs of their land and homes. According to the Torah, the land should be returned to them.
Neturei Karta deplore the systematic uprooting of ancient Jewish communities by the Zionists, the shedding of Jewish and non-Jewish blood for the sake of Zionist sovereignty and the Neturei Karta favor a peaceful transition from the present Zionist rule to a non-Zionist entity.
According to Judaic Law the Torah has the last word. There is no such thing as a majority of Jews who happen to be Jewish by birth who can alter Torah Law in any way.
In fact even the greatest rabbi or as Maimonides writes, "even the greatest prophet" [referring actually to an authentic prophet], has no right to distort or amend even one letter of the Torah.
Rabbi Blau stated shortly before his death that the acceptance by the United Nations of the Zionist state as a member state constituted a grave injustice to the Jewish people. Neturei Karta hope that this great error will be corrected at the earliest opportunity. The Neturei Karta regret that the Zionist state has usurped the holy name of Israel and that the Zionists so often pretend to speak in the name of the Jewish people and assume the right to act on our behalf. Only those rabbis who have not been affected or influenced by the poison of Zionism, can be considered the spiritual leaders of today's Jewry.
The world must know that Zionists have illegitimately seized the name Israel and have no right to speak in the name of the Jewish people!
Frequently Asked Questions
1 What is the purpose of your organization?
2- What is the basis of your position?
3- What was the Orthodox reaction to Zionism?
4- What is your position on the Palestinian people?
5- What is your position on the State of Israel?
6- What are your concerns besides anti-Zionism?
7- What is the purpose of your organization?
It is misleading to refer to Neturei Karta as an organization. Neturei Karta is the term used to describe those Orthodox Jews who have maintained the traditional Jewish opposition to Zionism.
What is the basis of your position?
Jewry always viewed their exile as a Divine punishment for sins. Thus, exile is the result of metaphysical forces. It cannot be rectified by force, political efforts or any other this worldly means. Jews yearn for the Biblically promised redemption of the entire world to be ushered in by the Heavenly appointed Messiah. This yearning manifested itself over the centuries only in prayer, good deeds and a spirit of penitence. This is the only Divinely sanctioned methodology to end the punishment of exile. Zionism, at root, rejected this sacred view of history. Its vision was and is limited to material cause and effect. Hence, to the Zionist mind -- which has come, tragically, to dominate much of contemporary public discussion -- exile was simply the result of Jewish political weakness. Their solution was to establish political sovereignty over the Holy Land. In order to do so they agitated politically and eventually launched a military conquest in order to capture the Land. Blind to both Torah imperatives and elementary justice they disregarded that a people was already inhabiting the land. Thus, their efforts required the dispossession those who had lived there for centuries, the Palestinian people.
What was the Orthodox reaction to Zionism?
It was overwhelmingly negative. A battle has raged between the forces of Zionism and Torah Jewry for the past century. After the founding of the state some Orthodox Jews have tried to make the best of a bad situation by working within the state to protect religious interests. Hundreds of thousands of Jews worldwide oppose this position. We stand among them. By participating in the state one implicitly recognizes its legitimacy and thus denies the reality of Divine exile and Messianic redemption.
What is your position on the Palestinian people?
Our exilic mission is to live humbly and at peace with all nations. The Zionists have violated the terms of exile by behaving in a consistently barbaric manner towards the Palestinians. We believe that contemporary sovereignty over the Holy Land belongs to those who have lived there for centuries, the Palestinians. If they would be disposed to allow some Jewish communities to live peacefully in their midst is entirely their decision, not ours. After the coming of the Messiah questions of political "rights" will be rendered irrelevant. All men will join together in the joyous worship of their Creator.
What is your position on the State of Israel?
We are, obviously, opposed to its very existence. In practice, we shun any participation in the state and refuse to accept its benefits, financial or other, in any form. In practice we frequently protest against the state's actions and, more importantly, its very existence. We have often joined Palestinians in protests and demonstrations. Our speakers are available to address any organizations on the subject of Zionism. We have often spoken to and visited Arab groups in America and in the Holy Land.
What are your concerns besides anti-Zionism?
In reality all our concerns are one. As Jews throughout the centuries our sole concern is obedience to the Will of G-d as revealed in the Torah. We are, as are all Jews, concerned with any matter which touches on this mission. For example, we are very much involved in efforts to oppose the arrogant demands (often accompanied by threats) by Zionists and others that European nations surrender to them millions of dollars for "reparations" and assorted other payments. This is neither in keeping with the humility demanded of us by exile nor does it square in many cases with the actual facts. Anti-Zionism is simply another part of a G-d centered, sacred world view.
http://www.netureikarta.org/
Neturei Karta opposed the establishment of and retain all opposition to the existence of the so-called "State of Israel"!
Neturei-Karta is the Aramaic term for "Guardians of the City. The name Neturei-Karta originates from an incident in which R. Yehudah Ha-Nassi (Rabbi Judah the Prince) sent R. Hiyya and R. Ashi on a pastoral tour of inspection. In one town they asked to see the "guardians of the city" and the city guard was paraded before them. They said that these were not the guardians of the city but is destroyers, which prompted the citizens to ask who, then, could be considered the guardians. The rabbis answered, "The scribes and the scholars," referring them to Tehillim (Psalms) Chap. 127.
(Jerusalem Talmud, Tractate Hagiga. 76c).
The name was given to a group of Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem who refused (and still refuse) to recognize the existence or authority of the so-called "State of Israel" and made (and still make) a point of publicly demonstrating their position, the position of the Torah and authentic unadulterated Judaism.
The group was founded in Jerusalem, Palestine in 1938, splitting off from Agudas Yisroel. Agudas Yisroel was established 87 years ago for the purpose of fighting Zionism. Gradually lured by money and honor they sold out to the "Golden-Calf" (see Exodus, XXXII) of Zionism. Those who wanted to maintain their faith and continue the struggle against Zionism, dissociated themselves from Agudas Yisroel and associated parties.
Over the years, a number of Neturei Karta activists and followers settled outside of Palestine. Some of the reasons that these individuals abandoned the country in which they and their families had lived for many generations (having lived there many years prior to the establishment of the illegitimate so-called "State of Israel") include; ideological refusal to live under the illegitimate heretical "Israeli" regime, them being exiled by the Zionist government for their insistence of remaining independent of the illegitimate heretical regime or them being unable to live a normal family life due to them and their families being persistently harassed, repeatedly incarcerated and many times even physically tortured by the Zionist police and agents.
This dispersion resulted in the emergence of various Neturei Karta establishments on the broader international scene. These establishments include synagogues, educational institutions, publishing houses and organizations.
The establishments in New York include three synagogues in Brooklyn (Boro Park and Williamsburg), three upstate, and organizations include the Friends of Jerusalem in NY, NY.
Neturei Karta is not - as is often alleged - a small sect or an extremist group of "ultra-orthodox" Jews. The Neturei Karta have added nothing to nor have they taken anything away from the written and oral law of the Torah as it is expressed in the Halacha and the Shulchan Aruch.
The Neturei Karta are fighting the changes and inroads made by political Zionism during the past one-hundred odd years. Guided by the rabbis of our time and under the inspiring leadership of the late Reb Amram Blau, the Neturei Karta refuse to recognize the right of anyone to establish a "Jewish" state during the present period of exile.
There are those who wish to play down the Neturei Karta and its' Torah-true beliefs. This has been attempted many a time by stating that the Neturei Karta is a minority group and that compared to other Jewish groups the Neturei Karta aren't even noticeable in terms of number.
The name Neturei Karta is a name usually given to those people who regularly pray in the Neturei Karta synagogues (Torah Ve'Yirah Jerusalem, Torah U'Tefillah London, Torah U'Tefillah NY, Beis Yehudi Upstate NY, etc.), study in or send their children to educational institutions run by Neturei Karta, or actively participate in activities, assemblies or demonstrations called by the Neturei Karta. Although it is true that the number of families which could be classified as Neturei Karta members or activists per-se is relatively small (several thousand), the number of Orthodox Jews who believe in the anti-Zionist ideology which Neturei Karta is known for, number in the hundreds of thousands.
Neturei Karta oppose the so-called "State of Israel" not because it operates secularly, but because the entire concept of a sovereign Jewish state is contrary to Jewish Law.
All the great rabbis who in accordance with Jewish Law opposed Zionism at its inception did not do so merely due to consideration of the secular lifestyles of the then Zionist leaders or even for their opposition to Torah heritage and rejection of its values and practices, but due to the fact that the entire concept of a Jewish state is in direct conflict with a number of Judaism's fundamentals.
Condemnation of and segregation from anything connected to or affiliated with the so-called modern day "State of Israel" is based on the Talmud, the key fundamental doctrine of the Oral Tradition handed down by G-d to Moses on Mt. Sinai.
The Talmud in Tractate Kesubos (p. 111a), teaches that Jews shall not use human force to bring about the establishment of a Jewish state before the coming of the universally accepted Moshiach (Messiah from the House of David).
Furthermore it states that we are forbidden to rebel against the nations and that we should remain loyal citizens and we shall not attempt to leave the exile which G-d sent us into, ahead of time.
Jews are not allowed to dominate, kill, harm or demean another people and are not allowed to have anything to do with the Zionist enterprise, their political meddling and their wars.
Neturei Karta forbid any participation with the so-called "State of Israel" or any of its subsidiaries. Neturei Karta followers do not participate in "Israeli" elections nor do they accept any aid from "Bituach Le'Umi" (Social Security), and the educational institutions of the Neturei Karta reject any form of financial support from the so-called "Va'ad HaYeshivos" (equiv. to Department of Education).
The Zionist state employs a set of chief rabbis and uses religious parties to ornament their state with a clerical image. They study the Torah with commentaries altered to clothe the words with nationalistic nuances.
Our rabbis have countless times proclaimed that it matters little which individuals or parties govern in the Zionist state because the very establishment and existence of the state itself is to be condemned and to be deplored.
The true Jews remain faithful to Jewish belief and are not contaminated with Zionism. The true Jews are against dispossessing the Arabs of their land and homes. According to the Torah, the land should be returned to them.
Neturei Karta deplore the systematic uprooting of ancient Jewish communities by the Zionists, the shedding of Jewish and non-Jewish blood for the sake of Zionist sovereignty and the Neturei Karta favor a peaceful transition from the present Zionist rule to a non-Zionist entity.
According to Judaic Law the Torah has the last word. There is no such thing as a majority of Jews who happen to be Jewish by birth who can alter Torah Law in any way.
In fact even the greatest rabbi or as Maimonides writes, "even the greatest prophet" [referring actually to an authentic prophet], has no right to distort or amend even one letter of the Torah.
Rabbi Blau stated shortly before his death that the acceptance by the United Nations of the Zionist state as a member state constituted a grave injustice to the Jewish people. Neturei Karta hope that this great error will be corrected at the earliest opportunity. The Neturei Karta regret that the Zionist state has usurped the holy name of Israel and that the Zionists so often pretend to speak in the name of the Jewish people and assume the right to act on our behalf. Only those rabbis who have not been affected or influenced by the poison of Zionism, can be considered the spiritual leaders of today's Jewry.
The world must know that Zionists have illegitimately seized the name Israel and have no right to speak in the name of the Jewish people!
Frequently Asked Questions
1 What is the purpose of your organization?
2- What is the basis of your position?
3- What was the Orthodox reaction to Zionism?
4- What is your position on the Palestinian people?
5- What is your position on the State of Israel?
6- What are your concerns besides anti-Zionism?
7- What is the purpose of your organization?
It is misleading to refer to Neturei Karta as an organization. Neturei Karta is the term used to describe those Orthodox Jews who have maintained the traditional Jewish opposition to Zionism.
What is the basis of your position?
Jewry always viewed their exile as a Divine punishment for sins. Thus, exile is the result of metaphysical forces. It cannot be rectified by force, political efforts or any other this worldly means. Jews yearn for the Biblically promised redemption of the entire world to be ushered in by the Heavenly appointed Messiah. This yearning manifested itself over the centuries only in prayer, good deeds and a spirit of penitence. This is the only Divinely sanctioned methodology to end the punishment of exile. Zionism, at root, rejected this sacred view of history. Its vision was and is limited to material cause and effect. Hence, to the Zionist mind -- which has come, tragically, to dominate much of contemporary public discussion -- exile was simply the result of Jewish political weakness. Their solution was to establish political sovereignty over the Holy Land. In order to do so they agitated politically and eventually launched a military conquest in order to capture the Land. Blind to both Torah imperatives and elementary justice they disregarded that a people was already inhabiting the land. Thus, their efforts required the dispossession those who had lived there for centuries, the Palestinian people.
What was the Orthodox reaction to Zionism?
It was overwhelmingly negative. A battle has raged between the forces of Zionism and Torah Jewry for the past century. After the founding of the state some Orthodox Jews have tried to make the best of a bad situation by working within the state to protect religious interests. Hundreds of thousands of Jews worldwide oppose this position. We stand among them. By participating in the state one implicitly recognizes its legitimacy and thus denies the reality of Divine exile and Messianic redemption.
What is your position on the Palestinian people?
Our exilic mission is to live humbly and at peace with all nations. The Zionists have violated the terms of exile by behaving in a consistently barbaric manner towards the Palestinians. We believe that contemporary sovereignty over the Holy Land belongs to those who have lived there for centuries, the Palestinians. If they would be disposed to allow some Jewish communities to live peacefully in their midst is entirely their decision, not ours. After the coming of the Messiah questions of political "rights" will be rendered irrelevant. All men will join together in the joyous worship of their Creator.
What is your position on the State of Israel?
We are, obviously, opposed to its very existence. In practice, we shun any participation in the state and refuse to accept its benefits, financial or other, in any form. In practice we frequently protest against the state's actions and, more importantly, its very existence. We have often joined Palestinians in protests and demonstrations. Our speakers are available to address any organizations on the subject of Zionism. We have often spoken to and visited Arab groups in America and in the Holy Land.
What are your concerns besides anti-Zionism?
In reality all our concerns are one. As Jews throughout the centuries our sole concern is obedience to the Will of G-d as revealed in the Torah. We are, as are all Jews, concerned with any matter which touches on this mission. For example, we are very much involved in efforts to oppose the arrogant demands (often accompanied by threats) by Zionists and others that European nations surrender to them millions of dollars for "reparations" and assorted other payments. This is neither in keeping with the humility demanded of us by exile nor does it square in many cases with the actual facts. Anti-Zionism is simply another part of a G-d centered, sacred world view.
http://www.netureikarta.org/
For more information:
http://www.netureikarta.org/
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Shalom, adoro al Neturei Karta. Me parece que tienen toda la razon. El sionismo ha robado el nombre del judaismo y eso ha hecho kedar mal esta maravillosa religion. Solamente escribo este articulo porque apoyo 100% este movimiento. VIVA EL NETUREI KARTA
Neturai Karta is a small but highly self-publicizing group who no more speak for what "real Judaism" means than any of the other far-Orthodox sects, most of whom have no theological problem at all with the existence of the state of Israel. So if -- because of the carpet-bombing of the Neturai Karta stuff here -- you want to believe that they're the norm, or somehow representative of anything but fringe religous tenets, whatever you do, don't check out the rest of Orthodox Judaism, or else you'll discover that Neturai Karta is just a very loud fringe group. And one that's always good for a chuckle whenever someone sez, "Look, here's what Judaism _really_ sez!!" and then points to the Neturai Karta as if they were somehow definitive or capable of declaring what "real Judaism" is. Neturei Karta, if anybody’s interested, also believes that the Holocaust was punishment on the Jewish people for trying to establish the State of Israel and for “antagonizing” the German; they’ve also spewed other hateful rhetoric against Israel and Zionism, and associated with terrorist groups. It’s one of the reasons they’re such good friends with thugs like Yassir Arafat and Louie Farrakhan, who trot them out whenever they need to “prove” their good relations with the Jews.
... Neturai Karta is small fish indeed -- but a handy tool for those who want to "prove" the pecularly tangled stance that nationalist movements are only illegitimate when we're talking about the Jews.
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Sorry for the deja vu.
Not a problem.
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Neturei Karta may be small - but what about the Satmar sect? They espouse many of the same oppositions and are known to be rather large in number.
http://www.awa.com/w2/DAC/dac-1.11.html
http://www.awa.com/w2/DAC/dac-1.11.html
Yet still they do not represent Hasidism as a whole, much less Orthodox Judaism as a whole, much less Judaism as a whole. And it's awful damn rhetorically convenient to point to the comparatively small fraction of Judiasm these guys represent, while ignoring the much larger fraction of Judaism that _is_ Zionist. It's convenient, but it happens all the time on the IMCs. It's part of the pecular twilight-zone sensation I get here: "oh, yeah, the IMC, that's the place where people think Judaism and Zionism are opposed to each other."
There are more Satmar Lubovitchers than there are Naturei Karta, for sure, but there is _much_ more to Judaism -- even Orthodox Judaism -- than the Lubovitchers. And, unlike, say, Roman Catholicism, there is no official organization capable of presenting an official Jewish dogma. Of course, this doesn't stop groups like Neturai Karta from proclaiming that what they say is the _true_ Judaism and other versions are false. And it doesn't stop anti-Zionist propagandists from trying to make the most of the Neturai Karta's proclamations as if they were somehow definitive theological statements.
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There are more Satmar Lubovitchers than there are Naturei Karta, for sure, but there is _much_ more to Judaism -- even Orthodox Judaism -- than the Lubovitchers. And, unlike, say, Roman Catholicism, there is no official organization capable of presenting an official Jewish dogma. Of course, this doesn't stop groups like Neturai Karta from proclaiming that what they say is the _true_ Judaism and other versions are false. And it doesn't stop anti-Zionist propagandists from trying to make the most of the Neturai Karta's proclamations as if they were somehow definitive theological statements.
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There are many Orthodox Jews who do not recognize Israel and many more who live in Israel and will not serve in the army for religious reasons (almost all of the ultra-Orthodox from what I hear but its due to the army being coed). Zionism as a philosophy is not universal even in Israel. Its similar to the "Manifest Destiny" philosophy in the US; most people living in the Western US do not believe in Manifest Destiny as a philosophy but that doesn’t mean that people would give up their personal land.
Are most American Jews Zionists? My family is Jewish and I cant think of one relative who considers themselves to be a Zionist (some are sympathetic to Israel but in most peoples minds Zionists=settlers and as everyone knows those people are crazy) If you broaden who you are looking at in the US to people who are culturally Jewish (practice Chanukah rather than Christmas etc..), you would probably find that most American Jews oppose Sharon and believe that the Palestinians should have a state. At many of the pro-Israel demos I’ve been to on the Berkeley campus and in San Francisco, most of the people I talked to were in support of a Palestinian state (at some point in the future).
While there has been a PR campaign to sell the American public on the idea of a Jewish right. Jewish Americans still tend to be on the Left. People may tend to support Israel more than they should, but that’s a far ways from supporting Sharon or believing that Jews have more of a right to live in the region than Palestinians.
Are most American Jews Zionists? My family is Jewish and I cant think of one relative who considers themselves to be a Zionist (some are sympathetic to Israel but in most peoples minds Zionists=settlers and as everyone knows those people are crazy) If you broaden who you are looking at in the US to people who are culturally Jewish (practice Chanukah rather than Christmas etc..), you would probably find that most American Jews oppose Sharon and believe that the Palestinians should have a state. At many of the pro-Israel demos I’ve been to on the Berkeley campus and in San Francisco, most of the people I talked to were in support of a Palestinian state (at some point in the future).
While there has been a PR campaign to sell the American public on the idea of a Jewish right. Jewish Americans still tend to be on the Left. People may tend to support Israel more than they should, but that’s a far ways from supporting Sharon or believing that Jews have more of a right to live in the region than Palestinians.
-- "Are most American Jews Zionists? My family is Jewish and I cant think of one relative who considers themselves to be a Zionist (some are sympathetic to Israel but in most peoples minds Zionists=settlers and as everyone knows those people are crazy) If you broaden who you are looking at in the US to people who are culturally Jewish (practice Chanukah rather than Christmas etc..), you would probably find that most American Jews oppose Sharon and believe that the Palestinians should have a state. At many of the pro-Israel demos I've been to on the Berkeley campus and in San Francisco, most of the people I talked to were in support of a Palestinian state (at some point in the future). "
Your mistaken assumption is that "Zionist" means "supports the settlements." The poll data here is very interesting. Did you know that the majority of Israeli Jews _want_ Israel to pull out of the West Bank? That even among Likud supporters, the majority endorse the concept of a Palestinian state _if_ it's in context of a peace agreement with secure borders? This is Zionists speaking.
They _want_ to pull out, poll after poll confirms it; they just don't think they _can_, because they've seen how Arafat runs things, and there's a legitimate (and completely rational) fear that, as things stand now, the State of Palestine would instantly turn into the State of Beltbombistan, or the Republic of Hamas -- only a few miles from Israel's major population centers.
A lot of people have fallen for the redefinition game -- the same thing Ronald Reagan did with the word "liberal": the organized program of attaching itm for propaganda purposes, only to negative and absurd things, until people become convinced that it represents some extreme version of what it actual does.
For example, most settlers aren't settling in the West Bank because they're driving by some grand ideological drive to recapture Biblical lands. Zionists, yes, but they're there simply because government housing policies give them a gigantic subsidy to _be_ there. That's why, when Begin gave the Sinai Peninsula back to Egypt, most of the settlers pulled up their stakes without any problem when the government told them to; the zealots might be more photographically interesting, but ask any Israeli and they'll tell you that most of the settlers are only there because it represents the only way they could afford a house of their own, and that this in turn is because of government subsidies. It's easy to deride them all as "crazies," and there certainly are some "crazies," but again there's more to the story, and it's a shame to be reduced to relying on overgeneralizations when the truth is readily available.
I mentioned in another thread that I've been on record as supporting an independent Palestinian state for about fifteen years. That statement was something I did as an undergrad as part of a campus organization called PZC: Progressive Zionist Caucus. If I really thought Ariel Sharon were the typical Zionist, I'd hate Zionism too. But there is much more to it than that.
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Your mistaken assumption is that "Zionist" means "supports the settlements." The poll data here is very interesting. Did you know that the majority of Israeli Jews _want_ Israel to pull out of the West Bank? That even among Likud supporters, the majority endorse the concept of a Palestinian state _if_ it's in context of a peace agreement with secure borders? This is Zionists speaking.
They _want_ to pull out, poll after poll confirms it; they just don't think they _can_, because they've seen how Arafat runs things, and there's a legitimate (and completely rational) fear that, as things stand now, the State of Palestine would instantly turn into the State of Beltbombistan, or the Republic of Hamas -- only a few miles from Israel's major population centers.
A lot of people have fallen for the redefinition game -- the same thing Ronald Reagan did with the word "liberal": the organized program of attaching itm for propaganda purposes, only to negative and absurd things, until people become convinced that it represents some extreme version of what it actual does.
For example, most settlers aren't settling in the West Bank because they're driving by some grand ideological drive to recapture Biblical lands. Zionists, yes, but they're there simply because government housing policies give them a gigantic subsidy to _be_ there. That's why, when Begin gave the Sinai Peninsula back to Egypt, most of the settlers pulled up their stakes without any problem when the government told them to; the zealots might be more photographically interesting, but ask any Israeli and they'll tell you that most of the settlers are only there because it represents the only way they could afford a house of their own, and that this in turn is because of government subsidies. It's easy to deride them all as "crazies," and there certainly are some "crazies," but again there's more to the story, and it's a shame to be reduced to relying on overgeneralizations when the truth is readily available.
I mentioned in another thread that I've been on record as supporting an independent Palestinian state for about fifteen years. That statement was something I did as an undergrad as part of a campus organization called PZC: Progressive Zionist Caucus. If I really thought Ariel Sharon were the typical Zionist, I'd hate Zionism too. But there is much more to it than that.
@%<
OK but now, why on earth did the government decide to build its cheap and affordable housing where it did, in the form of those settlements? Doesn't this policy seem a wee bit strange unless it was part of a scheme to introduce a network of control? And was it right to deprive Palestinians of their homes to build these settlements, usually located in downtown areas of towns? Couldn't the government have at least compensated those whose land was confiscated for no apparent reason? I think the settlement issue involves a bit more than mere public housing.
"there's a legitimate (and completely rational) fear that, as things stand now, the State of Palestine would instantly turn into the State of Beltbombistan, or the Republic of Hamas -- only a few miles from Israel's major population centers."
Now this I can agree with. The two state solution simply cannot work. There will be boundary disputes, disputes over compensation, etc etc etc til the end of time. Both states would have the ability to plan and prepare violence against the other without scrutiny of an independant body.
So like I have said before the only solution really feasible is a single, multicultural state with no ethnic basis, a proper Charter of Rights (with rules regarding discrimination, freedom of religion etc etc etc) and all the other traditions which have alleviated the reasons for sectarian violence in places such as the US. In other words I'm talking about a process occurring such as happenned with the dismantling of apartheid in South Africa.
"there's a legitimate (and completely rational) fear that, as things stand now, the State of Palestine would instantly turn into the State of Beltbombistan, or the Republic of Hamas -- only a few miles from Israel's major population centers."
Now this I can agree with. The two state solution simply cannot work. There will be boundary disputes, disputes over compensation, etc etc etc til the end of time. Both states would have the ability to plan and prepare violence against the other without scrutiny of an independant body.
So like I have said before the only solution really feasible is a single, multicultural state with no ethnic basis, a proper Charter of Rights (with rules regarding discrimination, freedom of religion etc etc etc) and all the other traditions which have alleviated the reasons for sectarian violence in places such as the US. In other words I'm talking about a process occurring such as happenned with the dismantling of apartheid in South Africa.
"OK but now, why on earth did the government decide to build its cheap and affordable housing where it did, in the form of those settlements? Doesn't this policy seem a wee bit strange unless it was part of a scheme to introduce a network of control?"
Not just strange but counterproductive and stupid. Not unlike the US involvement in Vietnam or the Russian involvement in Afghanstan or ...
"Now this I can agree with. The two state solution simply cannot work. There will be boundary disputes, disputes over compensation, etc etc etc til the end of time. Both states would have the ability to plan and prepare violence against the other without scrutiny of an independant body. "
Actually, you've drawn exactly the opposite conclusion I did. I'm being guided by history. Take a look at the Camp David Accord. Egypt and Israel had fought how many wars against each other? Yet Sadat was able to convince Israel that, yes, he could control his own extremists, and that Israel would not be compromising its own security to give back the Sinai Peninsula. To which the rightist Likudnik arch-Zionist Begin said: "Deal" -- as an application of Zionist principles. And Egypt has kept its word; the Sinai has not been used to stage terror attacks against Israel.
Yet it didn't take some grand merger of states for this to happen. Egypt remained Egypt and Israel remained Israel. They didn't have to become one state. Why? _Trust_. Exactly the kind of trust Arafat doesn't -- and can't -- inspire, and doesn't even enjoy among the very people he nominally "leads."
It's interesting to compare what the one-state solution demands compared to the two-state solution. The two-state solution demands that Israel let go of the West Bank -- which it wants to do -- and in exchange that the Palestians stop their terror attacks. The one-state solution sez: "Because the Palestinians cannot produce credible leadership, and because internationally funded terror organizations like Hamas are based in Palestinian territory, and because Israel is forced to build the world's only bullet-proof schoolbuses, therefore the State of Israel should cease to exist."
That's why the two-state solution has extremely broad international support, including US support and the support of the UN Security Council, while the one-state solution has the support of only the radical Islamic states -- the same ones who, not so coincidentally, fund the beltbombings through their proxy groups like Hamas, and are hoping against hope they can convince the average person that Israel has a moral obligation to commit suicide.
@%<
Not just strange but counterproductive and stupid. Not unlike the US involvement in Vietnam or the Russian involvement in Afghanstan or ...
"Now this I can agree with. The two state solution simply cannot work. There will be boundary disputes, disputes over compensation, etc etc etc til the end of time. Both states would have the ability to plan and prepare violence against the other without scrutiny of an independant body. "
Actually, you've drawn exactly the opposite conclusion I did. I'm being guided by history. Take a look at the Camp David Accord. Egypt and Israel had fought how many wars against each other? Yet Sadat was able to convince Israel that, yes, he could control his own extremists, and that Israel would not be compromising its own security to give back the Sinai Peninsula. To which the rightist Likudnik arch-Zionist Begin said: "Deal" -- as an application of Zionist principles. And Egypt has kept its word; the Sinai has not been used to stage terror attacks against Israel.
Yet it didn't take some grand merger of states for this to happen. Egypt remained Egypt and Israel remained Israel. They didn't have to become one state. Why? _Trust_. Exactly the kind of trust Arafat doesn't -- and can't -- inspire, and doesn't even enjoy among the very people he nominally "leads."
It's interesting to compare what the one-state solution demands compared to the two-state solution. The two-state solution demands that Israel let go of the West Bank -- which it wants to do -- and in exchange that the Palestians stop their terror attacks. The one-state solution sez: "Because the Palestinians cannot produce credible leadership, and because internationally funded terror organizations like Hamas are based in Palestinian territory, and because Israel is forced to build the world's only bullet-proof schoolbuses, therefore the State of Israel should cease to exist."
That's why the two-state solution has extremely broad international support, including US support and the support of the UN Security Council, while the one-state solution has the support of only the radical Islamic states -- the same ones who, not so coincidentally, fund the beltbombings through their proxy groups like Hamas, and are hoping against hope they can convince the average person that Israel has a moral obligation to commit suicide.
@%<
"And Egypt has kept its word; the Sinai has not been used to stage terror attacks against Israel."
Didn't Israel, last year, demolish a bunch of houses near the border claiming they were being used by terrorists operating out of Egypt for the smuggling of weapons? Isn't war an inherent function of any state? Exactly how many governments older than, say, 100 years have used military force in the past 100 years?
Two states may be supported by many states - notably, those selling weapons to interested parties in the region in question.
Nationalism has historically been regarded as a leading cause of terrorism and border disputes - implicated as the political force behind both world war I and world war 2, amongst numerous other conflicts in the past century.
I'm interested in knowing how implementing a South African style solution in Israel would be detrimental. The fact is, steps made in the direction of the two state solution have been made and did not work. Why not try a different solution?
Didn't Israel, last year, demolish a bunch of houses near the border claiming they were being used by terrorists operating out of Egypt for the smuggling of weapons? Isn't war an inherent function of any state? Exactly how many governments older than, say, 100 years have used military force in the past 100 years?
Two states may be supported by many states - notably, those selling weapons to interested parties in the region in question.
Nationalism has historically been regarded as a leading cause of terrorism and border disputes - implicated as the political force behind both world war I and world war 2, amongst numerous other conflicts in the past century.
I'm interested in knowing how implementing a South African style solution in Israel would be detrimental. The fact is, steps made in the direction of the two state solution have been made and did not work. Why not try a different solution?
"Didn't Israel, last year, demolish a bunch of houses near the border claiming they were being used by terrorists operating out of Egypt for the smuggling of weapons?"
There have been assorted small incidents every now and then, true, but the big picture since Camp David is that the border with Egypt has been quite quiet, and the Egyptian government wants it to stay that way.
Re one-state: the main problem -- other than the complete lack of international support for such a program -- is that it punishes Israel for the Palestinians' inability to get their act together. Israel wouldn't willingly go along with its own dismantlement, and the necessary international support to _force_ Israel to go along with it simply isn't there.
@%<
There have been assorted small incidents every now and then, true, but the big picture since Camp David is that the border with Egypt has been quite quiet, and the Egyptian government wants it to stay that way.
Re one-state: the main problem -- other than the complete lack of international support for such a program -- is that it punishes Israel for the Palestinians' inability to get their act together. Israel wouldn't willingly go along with its own dismantlement, and the necessary international support to _force_ Israel to go along with it simply isn't there.
@%<
Who said anything about dismantling Israel?
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