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UC Administration supports Israeli occupation: students protest
by z
Thursday May 2nd, 2002 3:27 PM
On May 2 2002, about 500 students gathered in Sproul plaza in Berkeley to protest against University of California support for Israel and the UC administration's attempt to destroy the Palestinian movement on the Berkeley campus.
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As the Palestinian people remain steadfast and fierce in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, in refugee camps for still another trying day throughout the Arab world and as third-class citizens in Israel proper, they also inspire us all to continue our work in the States and all over the world. In response, powers that be are doing their utmost to silence us. The Students for Justice in Palestine-UC Berkeley's movement to divest from Israel and hold our university accountable has become too loud and too powerful for the administration to ignore us anymore and rather than sit down and negotiate our demands with us they are trying to tape our mouths shut and kick us out of school. As you may have already heard, the University is now building a case to suspend SJP on campus. That means that we cannot table on campus, we cannot distribute literature, we cannot hold rallies or teach-ins, we cannot hold meetings oncampus; essentially we have no freedom of speech or assembly. Why? Because we held a non-violent march and rally that culminated in a sit-in.

This type of response is unprecedented and it is definitely representative of the University's own economic interests and pro-Israeli bias. But that's not all, the University's case also seeks to suspend 41 students involved with the organization for an entire academic year, sending the clear message that our movement is not wanted on campus. Where in Palestine voices of dissent are literally murdered, we are now witnessing the symbolic murder of similar voices on our university campus. The Students for Justice in Palestine demand that the University of California, Berkeley divest their holdings in Israel, stop using our tuition to massacre Palestinian civilians We demand that UC Berkeley condemn the Israeli military siege around our Palestinian sister school, Bethlehem University. We demand that all charges are dropped and that we may continue to exercise our freedom of speech on campus. We are now waging a struggle to get these charges dropped and to remain morally conscious and socially active students at UC Berkeley. To win this struggle we need your help. This week we will be engaging in a number of events that will only be powerful with your support and presence.

Students for Justice in Palestine, Berkeley, California

http://www.justiceinpalestine.org

justiceinpalestine [at] yahoo.com - (510) 496-1269 x1948 - vm/fax
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Comments  (Hide Comments)

by Salah
Thursday May 2nd, 2002 6:19 PM
As a Palestinian, I must protest the inclusion of a homosexual group in this afternoon's rally. Gay people have no place in society, whether in Palestine of in the US.
by TOB
Thursday May 2nd, 2002 7:07 PM
Hey, did everyone see the video of the Palestineans staging a funeral. It turns out that the cameras were on too long and the person that they were suposedly burrying got up and walked away on his own two feet. I guess if the Israeli's didn't kill mass Palestineans as Palestinean's have claimed than it is OK to just make up the funerals. Credibility Problem???
by suspicious
Thursday May 2nd, 2002 10:13 PM
Then you're a minority in your struggle, and you should know that. Most Palestinians who really want freedom are willing to accept the fact that there are other people who are different, and embrace their differences without resorting to dehumanizing. Noone cares to hear about your homophobia problems.

... and what's more I wouldn't be surprised if you were just a fake trying to stir up shit. Whatever the case, shaddup... most people just ignore the trolls anyway... I guess I was just bored
by keanu reeves
Thursday May 2nd, 2002 10:22 PM
did you guys see the people with the KEANU REEVES 4 CHANCELLOR and REHIRE TOM HOLMOE posters? those were the true protesters.
by You Freak
Thursday May 2nd, 2002 11:30 PM
Go fuck you goat.
by Salah
Thursday May 2nd, 2002 11:35 PM
Was addressed to Salah. Is Salah arabic for freak of God?
by Gabriel
Friday May 3rd, 2002 12:29 AM
How pathetic that UC Berkely, of all Universities in America, is moving through the courts (a la George Bush) to deny freedom of speech and assembly and quite dissent. For a school renowned for it's liberal and anti-establishment stance, this is such a shame. UC Berkeley is nothing of what it used to be. Now it is ruled by wealthy Zionists.
by carlos sempere
Friday May 3rd, 2002 1:35 AM
UC Berkeley revoked the organization's priviledges because they entered classrooms and disrupted classes. In doing so they broke one of the rules established for student organizations, so what else was the university going to do?

Really, there is such thing as going to far (at least when you're not going to directly solve anything). Many people were upset to have their classes interrupted, even people who agree with the SJP were offended at having rhetoric forced down their throats while in class, including myself.

I'm disassociating myself with Berkeley's political activism. I've had great times in it but even true messages delievered in Jerry Fallwell style are disgusting. Some of us are here to study first, be active second.
by Anne
Friday May 3rd, 2002 6:43 AM
Boy, the left sure is mixed up these days.
by bic
Friday May 3rd, 2002 7:04 AM
"I'm disassociating myself with Berkeley's political activism. I've had great times in it but even true messages delievered in Jerry Fallwell style are disgusting."

"Having great times" is, after all, what it's all about, isn't it? It couldn't possibly be about accomplishing anything useful or getting an education. At least not the way you geniuses carry it out.

I also am amused by the inherrent humor of gays marching for the freedom of the palistinians. That is so funny I bust a gut laughing at the thought.

Personally, I'd never send my kids to Berkeley. That University had better wise up before no one does. Expeling this rule breaking palestinian activist organisation should be the first step. Then next time maybe they'll remember that they...

"are here to study first, be active second."

by Steve D
Friday May 3rd, 2002 7:45 AM
Does Berkley have any history requirements for its students? Do the students there (especially the gay ones) have any idea that once the radicals in the middle east are through repressing their own people and murdering the Jews, that there will be no tolerance at all for foolish little things like.... oh say... freedom of speech or assembly or the press or womens rights or gay rights or religious freedom or dissent of any kind etc... etc...

I -CAN- see the two sides of the argument. Being completly against the Jews and in favor of Palestine is pure foolishness and a very poor reflection on the standards at Berkley. May Jesus or Allah or Buddah or whatever diety you prefer please help us when you graduate and optain positions of real power.
by Bernie
(berniec56 [at] attbi.com) Friday May 3rd, 2002 7:45 AM
Salah, as a homosexual I must protest the inclusion of a gay bashing Palestinians in a liberal and open society. Palestinian homophobes have no place in society, whether in Palestine of in the US.
by Christopher
Friday May 3rd, 2002 8:09 AM
I'd like to thank Salah and Johnny Walker for showing the true faces of Islam -- bigotry, racism, homophobia, and intemperance. To all the protestors at UC Berkeley: please name one -- just one -- Muslim country that wouldn't kill you and your families for anti-government demonstrations. Please name one Muslim country worth living in. War, bloodshed, repression, tyranny, and above all else, hatred: the cardinal virtues of Islam.
Its not really worth arguing or taking offense at any of the comments on this site since there is a relatively large group of right wing people who constantly post and try to be disruptive.

Provoking division between factions, trying to pit cultural liberals against antiimperialists, etc... is all par for the course when it comes to disruption by rightwing wingnuts. Dont let any of these comments fool you.

A specific note on the gay/Palestinian thread which is obviuously some proIsrael jerk trying to mess with people. The West Bank and Gaza are among of the more secular societies in the Middle East and much of this is a result of diversity within the Palestinian population (which is both Christian and Muslim). Gay activists go to Palestine all the time to work with Palestinian groups and are accepted in the struggle along with everyone else.

No person who supports the Palestinians would try to discourage someone from participating in the Palestinian struggle. No protesters were offended by the relatively mild SJP protest. To keep a movement strong we need unity and the right will always try to play up our divisions.

Long live Palestine.
by Shaikh
Friday May 3rd, 2002 8:24 AM
You people are completely clueless.
by jben
Friday May 3rd, 2002 8:26 AM
For the person who asked where to find the video of the Palestinian "martyr" who, thinking the camera was off, then got up and walked away from his "funeral", here is the link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1960000/video/_1963226_jenin01_wood_vi.ram
Yes, you are right. We are here. It's our way of protesting against liberals.

See any similarities between us coming on IndyMedia and protesting and you doing it out in the streets? I do.

You have your causes to protest against and we have ours. You protest against Israel, and we protest against you. You say "Let's take to the streets!" and we say "Let's take to the internet!"

IndyMedia is a perfect place for us rightwingnuts to protest. Perfect. We can be as disruptive as you liberals. Hit 'em where it hurts. Flame wars, disinformation, separate alliances, propaganda, disruptiveness. Looks like we have some common ground after all.

Gays for palestine! hahahahahahahahaha!

what will they think of next?
by VivaZapata!
Friday May 3rd, 2002 8:49 AM
I gotta agree with many here, the "Queers for Palestine" has got to be one of the most hilarious slogans I have ever witnessed in my life !

Somebody here said Palestine is one of the more secular societies in the middle east. Well, whoohoo, that means nothing when you've got Saudi Arabia and the like to compare against.

If this society is so secular, how come I haven't seen any "secular" suicide bombers leave secular death messages before they blow up. Instead, we see them deliver nationalistic but ultimately religous messages and quotations before they go on their little martyr trip.

Please.

I dare this UC Queer group to go to Palestinian territory and have guys holding hands and french kissing each other, and see what type of reaction they get from the opressed people down there.

Please, do it !
by inglizi
Friday May 3rd, 2002 9:12 AM
Its obvious that there are people on this message board (zionazis) who are trying to divert attention from the legitimate Palestinian struggle for regaining their land and freedom. On almost every message board on the web, you will find them using the same tactics. Palestinians welcome support from all groups,creeds and people in their noble goal to overcome the zionist entity and its racist,nazi-like agenda.Together we will rebuild the Holy Land, free from Israeli terror.
by VivaZapata!
Friday May 3rd, 2002 9:30 AM
Wow, I didn't know I'm a Zionist. Here I am a Hispanic immigrant who is Catholic, and I get accused of being a Zionist, ah, the ironies never stop !

The truth is, that as far as anybody can tell, the Palestinian society or whatever is left of it is not as tolerant as other wish it would be.

You can blame it on the US , the Jews, Zionitst, Arafat, whatever, but that's just how it is. The Middle East is full religious intolerance and fanaticism, and Palestinians are not inmune to that.

For all the faults of Israel, you can tell if you are honest with yourself , that is it a much more open society internally than that the Palestinians "enjoy".

As a matter of fact, I keep seen Israeli Arabs have businesses, I see Arabs be part of the Israeli government, I see opposition parties, I see anti-Sharon protests *INSIDE* of Israel and by Israel.

What do you see in the Palestinian side ? Where is the "opposition" to Arafat ? Nowhere. Once in a while, you do see some opposition, "collaborators" dragged , killed and hung by mobs.

So please, let's be honest about things and stop portraying Palestianian society as something it's not. Yes, they have legitimate grievances against Isreal, yes they have suffered a lot, but please, STOP romanticizing them to the point of ridicule. It doesn't make your arguments more valid or their cause more just.

If you wish to keep calling people who disagree with you Zionazist or whatever, please keep it up. Doesn't change my mind, and doesn't make your arguments any more valid.
by Ocka
Friday May 3rd, 2002 9:43 AM
Hey, you Nazi fuck. When you say "wealthy zionists"...I wonder what you mean. Do you mean that Jews control money and institutions of power surreptitiously? By means of guile, cunning, and dishonesty? Just making sure. You accidentally dropped your swastika, you fucking anti-semite. I'm sorry that you're disappointed in Berkeley for not burning synogogues like they do in France or firebombing them like they do in Tunisia. I'm sorry that you mourn that Jews are safe in America and Israel. We ain't going out like that. This time, we'll Dresden your ass before the pogrom. You're fucked.
by Rational Thinking
Friday May 3rd, 2002 9:53 AM
So, Mr. Sallah, could you please let me know if beheading gays is the "muslim value" when it comes to homosexuality? This is what they have been have been doing in Holy Saudi Arabia.

I am surprised that you implied the lack of intolerance towards homosexuality is an exlusive "western value". Well, many countries ranging from Thailand to South Africa are very tolerant to gays (even more than the US), and I am sure that was not imposed by some "imperialists".

Anyway, I am now convinced that hatred for homosexuals is an muslim value.
by BalancedView
Friday May 3rd, 2002 10:06 AM
A memo to American Muslims

Excerpts from an open letter to fellow muslims by a muslim scholar. The complete letter is at
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2001/10/18/muslimmemo/print.html

- - - - - - - - - - - -

By M. A. Muqtedar Khan

Oct. 18, 2001 | In the name of Allah, the most Benevolent and the Most Merciful. May this memo find you in the shade of Islam enjoying the mercy, the protection and the grace of Allah. I am writing this memo to you all with the explicit purpose of inviting you to lead the American Muslim community in soul searching, reflection and reassessment.
(....)
Muslims, including American Muslims, have been practicing hypocrisy on a grand scale. They protest against the discriminatory practices of Israel but are silent against the discriminatory practices in Muslim states. In the Persian Gulf one can see how laws and even salaries are based on ethnic origin. This is racism, but we never hear of Muslims protesting against them at international forums.

The Israeli occupation of Palestine is perhaps central to Muslim grievance against the West. While acknowledging that, I must remind you that Israel treats its 1 million Arab citizens with greater respect and dignity than most Arab nations treat their citizens. Today Palestinian refugees can settle in the U.S. and become American citizens, but in spite of all the tall rhetoric of the Arab world and Quranic injunctions (24:22), no Muslim country except Jordan extends this support to them.

While we loudly and consistently condemn Israel for its ill treatment of Palestinians, we are silent when Muslim regimes abuse the rights of Muslims and slaughter thousands of them. Remember Saddam Hussein and his use of chemical weapons against Muslims (Kurds)? Remember the Pakistani army's excesses against Muslims (Bengalis)? Remember the mujahideen of Afghanistan and their mutual slaughter? Have we ever condemned them for their excesses? Have we demanded international intervention or retribution against them? Do you know how the Saudis treat their minority Shiis? Have we protested the violation of their rights? But we all are eager to condemn Israel; not because we care for the rights and lives of the Palestinians; we don't. We condemn Israel because we hate "them."

Muslims love to live in the U.S. but also love to hate it. Many openly claim that the U.S. is a terrorist state but they continue to live in it. Their decision to live here is testimony that they would rather live here than anywhere else. As an Indian Muslim, I know for sure that nowhere on earth, including India, will I get the same sense of dignity and respect that I have received in the U.S. No Muslim country will treat me as well as the U.S. has. If what happened on Sept. 11 had happened in India, the world's biggest democracy, thousands of Muslims would have been slaughtered in riots on mere suspicion and there would be another slaughter after the culprits' identity was confirmed. But in the U.S., bigotry and xenophobia have been kept in check by the media and political leaders. In many places hundreds of Americans have gathered around Islamic centers in symbolic gestures of protection and embrace of American Muslims. In many cities Christian congregations have started wearing hijab to identify with fellow Muslim women. In patience and in tolerance ordinary Americans have demonstrated their extraordinary virtues.

It is time that we acknowledge that the freedoms we enjoy in the U.S. are more desirable to us than superficial solidarity with the Muslim world. If you disagree, then prove it by packing your bags and going to whichever Muslim country you identify with. If you do not leave and do not acknowledge that you would rather live here than anywhere else, know that you are being hypocritical.

It is time that we faced these hypocritical practices and struggled to transcend them. It is time that American Muslim leaders fought to purify their own lot. For over a decade we have watched as Muslims in the name of Islam have committed violence against other Muslims and other peoples. We have always found a way to reconcile the vast distance between Islamic values and Muslim practices by pointing to the injustices committed upon Muslims by others. The point however is this -- our belief in Islam and commitment to Islamic values is not contingent on the moral conduct of the U.S. or Israel. And as Muslims can we condone such inhuman and senseless waste of life in the name of Islam?

The biggest victims of hate-filled politics as embodied in the actions of several Muslim militias all over the world are Muslims themselves. Hate is the extreme form of intolerance and when individuals and groups succumb to it they can do nothing constructive. Militias like the Taliban have allowed their hate for the West to override their obligation to pursue the welfare of their people and as a result of their actions not only have thousands of innocent people died in America, but thousands of people will die in the Muslim world.

Already, half a million Afghans have had to leave their homes and their country. It will only get worse as the war escalates. Hamas and Islamic Jihad may kill a few Jews, women and children included, with their suicide bombs and temporarily satisfy their lust for Jewish blood, but thousands of Palestinians then pay the price for their actions.

The culture of hate and killing is tearing away at the moral fabric of the Muslim society. We are more focused on "the other" and have completely forgotten our duty to Allah. In pursuit of the inferior jihad we have sacrificed the superior jihad.

Islamic resurgence, the cherished ideals of which pursued the ultimate goal of a universally just and moral society, has been hijacked by hate and calls for murder and mayhem. If Osama bin Laden were an individual, then we would have no problem. But unfortunately bin Laden has become a phenomenon -- a cancer eating away at the morality of our youth, and undermining the spiritual health of our future.

Today the century-old Islamic revival is in jeopardy because we have allowed insanity to prevail over our better judgment. Yes, the U.S. has played a hand in the creation of bin Laden and the Taliban, but it is we who have allowed them to grow and gain such a foothold. It is our duty to police our world. It is our responsibility to prevent people from abusing Islam. It is our job to ensure that Islam is not misrepresented. We should have made sure that what happened on Sept. 11 should never have happened.

It is time the leaders of the American Muslim community woke up and realized that there is more to life than competing with the American Jewish lobby for power over U.S. foreign policy. Islam is not about defeating Jews or conquering Jerusalem. It is about mercy, about virtue, about sacrifice and about duty. Above all it is the pursuit of moral perfection. Nothing can be further away from moral perfection than the wanton slaughter of thousands of unsuspecting innocent people.

I hope that we will now rededicate our lives and our institutions to the search for harmony, peace and tolerance. Let us be prepared to suffer injustice rather than commit injustices. After all, it is we who carry the divine burden of Islam and not others. We have to be morally better, more forgiving, more sacrificing than others, if we wish to convince the world about the truth of our message. We cannot simply be equal to others in virtue, we must excel.

It is time for soul searching. How can the message of Muhammad, who was sent as mercy to mankind, become a source of horror and fear? How can Islam inspire thousands of youth to dedicate their lives to killing others? We are supposed to invite people to Islam, not murder them.

The worst exhibition of Islam happened on our turf. We must take first responsibility to undo the evil it has manifest. This is our mandate, our burden and also our opportunity.


- - - - - - - - - - - -

About the writer
Muqtedar Khan is a political science professor at Adrian College in Michigan. He is on the board of the Center for the Study of Islam and Democracy.


by al-fatiha
Friday May 3rd, 2002 10:07 AM
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There is no contradiction in being gay and a Muslim.

http://www.al-fatiha.net/

http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/Qurannotes.htm

http://www.ilga.org/Information/europe/out_and_muslim_in_the_united_kin.htm
by BalancedView
Friday May 3rd, 2002 10:14 AM
In Saudi Arabia, 24 Filipino guest workers were sentenced in 1996 to 200 lashes for "homosexual behaviour". A year earlier, the Saudis beheaded an 18 year old gay man, Neil Tubo. His family claim he was framed on charges on raping two women, and the real reason for his execution was his homosexuality.

Two lesbians were sentenced to 90 lashes each in the United Arab Emirates city of Sharjah in 1995. They were also jailed for one and two years respectively for "taking part in illegitimate relationships and attempting to practice indecency".

The Bangladeshi writer, Taslima Nasrin, had to flee into exile in Sweden in 1994 after she was condemned to death by Muslim fundamentalists for advocating the revision of Islamic law to protect the rights of women. Issuing a fatwa against Nasrin, they offered a bounty to anyone who would kill her.

In neighbouring Pakistan, an illiterate 14-year-old boy, Salamat Masih, was sentenced to die in 1994 for allegedly writing words offensive to the prophet Mohammed on the wall of a mosque. Although saved by a last minute reprieve, he was forced to seek refuge in Germany after Islamicists threatened to hunt him down and murder him.

On the Philippines island of Mindanao, Muslim militia have been terrorising gay men -- beating them up, ordering them to leave the region, and threatening them with castration.

In 1995, Islamic extremists in Algeria assassinated the feminist leader, Nabila Diahnine. Previously they had killed the theatre director, Abdelkader Alloula. These are just two of the tens of thousands who have been murdered by Algerian fundamentalists over the last three years. Other victims include gay couples who violate the strict Islamic taboo against same-sex love, students and academics who refuse to study within a religious framework, and journalists who write the truth uncensored by clerical fanatics.

The Islamicist hard-liners in Algeria have also targeted women who fail to confirm to the Muslim tradition of subservience and modesty. Wives risk death if they go out to work instead of staying at home and waiting on their husbands. Other women are being killed for studying at university, wearing make-up or short skirts, and attending mixed schools or swimming pools. Any female behaviour deemed 'scandalous' by the militants can have lethal consequences, as 16-year-old Katia Bengana discovered. She was shot dead on her way home from school for refusing to wear a veil.



The common goal that unites Islamic fundamentalists the world over is the establishment of a religious state where every aspect of life is determined by the principles of the Koran and Muslim tradition. This means the creation of a state where homosexuality is illegal and punishable by death.

Same-sex relationships are currently outlawed in 26 Islamic countries: Afghanistan, Algeria, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Bosnia, Iran, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Malaysia, Mauritania, Morocco, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria, Tajikistan, Tunisia, Turkmenistan, the United Arab Emirates and Yemen.

Islam is also a significant and growing influence in Senegal, Nigeria, Chad, Somalia, Turkey, and the southern Philippines. In these states, the social opprobrium heaped on lesbian and gay people is very severe: beatings and disownment by their families are common place, driving some to depression and suicide. Those not caught out, usually feel pressured to deny their sexuality and force themselves into tragic, loveless marriages.

In only three Islamic-dominated nations are there no laws against homosexuality: Egypt, Indonesia and Iraq. Nevertheless, even in these countries public attitudes remain hostile and gay people are subjected to periodic police victimisation.

Of the Islamic states that ban lesbian and gay sex: Iran, Mauritania, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Yemen enforce the death penalty. Pakistan specifies two years to life imprisonment, plus flogging. In Malaysia the maximum sentence is 20 years and in the United Arab Emirates it's 14. Bangladesh and Libya are considered fairly moderate in Islamic fundamentalist terms, with punishments of seven and five years' jail respectively.

Iran is the most zealously homophobic Islamic country. Since 1980, when the fundamentalists came to power under the leadership of Ayatollah Khomeini, over 4,000 lesbians and gay men have been executed, according to estimates by the exiled Iranian homosexual rights group, Homan.

In the early 1980's, for example, 70 people were executed after they attempted to set up a lesbian and gay organisation. Nearly 100 homosexuals were sentenced to death in 1992 following a raid on a private party.

It is notoriously difficult to be certain about the exact number of lesbians and gays killed because some executions take place in secret, and the relatives of those killed often try to cover up the true reason, due to the strong social stigma associated with homosexuality. Another factor preventing an accurate estimate is the regime's resort to false allegations of homosexuality against political opponents, in a bid to discredit them. Trumped up charges of homosexuality were levelled against a Sunni Muslim leader, Dr. Ali Mozaffarian, who was executed in Shiraz in 1992.

The methods of killing lesbians and gays in Iran include: beheading with a sword, stoning to death, burning alive, and throwing from a mountain top or high building.

The death penalty applies not only to sodomy, but to repeated offences of lesser sexual acts such as mutual masturbation and body rubbing. The mere act of two people of the same sex lying naked together "without any necessity" is a crime punishable by up to 99 lashes. One man kissing another, even "without lust", merits 60 lashes. These floggings are so severe that they can cause permanent injury to internal organs, gross open wounds, and sometimes death.

The Iranian authorities stepped up their crusade against homosexuality in 1990, with a wave of public executions. On the first day of the new crackdown, three gay men were beheaded in a city square in Nahavand, and two women accused of lesbianism were stoned to death in Langrood. Justifying these killings, the Iranian Chief Justice, Morteza Moghtadai, declared: "The religious punishment for the despicable act of homosexuality is death for both parties".

Simultaneously, Ayatollah Ali Khameni denounced "homosexuality, male and female". He condemned Britain and the USA for promoting gay relationships, falsely claiming the two countries had legalised marriages between people of the same sex. Homosexuality was, he said, a symptom of the decay and corruption of western culture.

According to BBC monitored reports, his colleague, Ayatollah Musavi-Ardebili, demanded the strict enforcement of Islamic punishments for lesbian and gay behaviour. Describing the procedures for the execution of homosexuals, he told students at Tehran University in 1990:

"They should seize him (or her), they should keep him standing, they should split him in two with a sword, they should either cut off his neck or they should split him from the head. ... After he is dead, they bring logs, make a fire and place the corpse on the logs, set fire to it and burn it. Or it should be taken to the top of a mountain and thrown down. Then the parts of the corpse should be gathered together and burnt. Or they should dig a hole, make a fire in the hole and throw him alive into the fire.

"We do not have such punishments for other offences", boasted the Ayatollah. "There cannot be the slightest degree of mercy or compassion. ... Praise be to God."

Lesbians and gay men living in countries dominated by the New Dark Ages of Islamic fundamentalism cannot afford the liberal luxury of tolerating religious fanaticism. For them, the politically correct arguments about 'cultural sensitivity' smack of surrender to the extremists who jeopardise their freedom - and their lives.


Edited versions of this article were published in Gay Times, October 1995; and Tribune, 22 November 1996.

http://www.tatchell.freeserve.co.uk/religion/dark%20ages.htm
by Doobie
Friday May 3rd, 2002 11:25 AM
None of this trashtalking gets anyone closer to a political solution that allows people to live in peace.

If anyone needs an example of where this hate, all this trash talking, to one another all leads, please visit lower Manhattan. Hasn't even been a year.
by Peter
Friday May 3rd, 2002 1:16 PM
I know it's still cool out this time of year, but I have seen some hot looking babes walking around campus lately. Next protest, do you mind shooting photos of some of these hot looking babes wearing low neck shirts (preferably some clevage) or close-ups of really tight shorts or jeans? No dogs, please. That would kind of spruce up some of your photos, make it more interesting to view. Thanx.
by Yehudit
Friday May 3rd, 2002 2:12 PM
This would be a good place to remind everyone that Israel is the only Middle East country with full rights for gays and women. In fact, Arab women have more legal rights in Israel than in any Arab country. An Israeli transsexual won some international pop-singer contest a few years ago.

Re: the comment about the "secular open" West Bank -- I'll believe this when they have free open elections and stop convicting each other in kangaroo courts as collaborators. I know there are educated liberal Palestinians - Sari Nusseibeh, for example - but they aren't running the country, are they?

Oh well, nothing new ..... the Left has a long history of supporting and apologizing for genocidal dictators, going all the way back to Stalin.....
by Anonymous coward
Friday May 3rd, 2002 7:47 PM
You need RealPlayer to view the video.
by carlos sempere
Friday May 3rd, 2002 8:56 PM
"No protesters were offended by the relatively mild SJP protest. "

That's not true. People who often do take part in protests, but we're going to class at that hour on that day, were offended by the SJP protesters whose message was
"If you're not doing as we are, on our schedule, then you support the Israeli occupation of Palestine."

It was not a mild protest. They were disruptive even to sympathisers, and lost a lot of respect in the eyes of the moderate leftists (who probably comprise most of campus).
by noone
Saturday May 4th, 2002 1:04 AM
"They were disruptive even to sympathisers"

How so? The only ones blocking the paths to education were the cops. Before they locked down the area, people were freely going in and out of the building, passing through the protest.

I'm not a member of the group, but I tend to think you're being a bit callous considering there was a massacre occuring in Jenin at the time of the protest. Would you expect anything less if it were New Yorkers being deprived of food, water, medical supplies, shelter, saftey, respect, and freedom? A human is a human, and the horrors unfolding in Jenin's aftermath are unbelieveable.

Personally, I think that the alumni said it best yesterday in Sproul that "If they HADN'T been there, out in force, it would have been a disgrace to the school." What is outrageous is the claims of disruption of education. I've seen the disruption of the 41 students' education who were involved in the protest more because of beurocratic bullshit and red tape dealing with the booking/trial than there was a possible chance of in that one afternoon on 4/9/02.

They've had to miss class to sit and wait for UCPD process their ID for 3-4 hours in the middle of the day when most students had to be in class or work. They are threatened with suspention for a year... 41 students. For sitting in a hallway and chanting loudly about an issue that NEEDS to be discussed.

They weren't obstructing education... they weren't depriving anyone of access to their classes... so what exactly is the problem with sitting down and yelling about an issue that you feel passionately about? Have students at UCB not been doing this for decades? And has every group that held a sit-in been suspended and had it's members facing legal prosocution? Has ONE?

I think I made my point...

"Occupy a building, we'll ban your group and suspend your members. Occupy a nation, we'll invest $6,000,000,000"
by michael
Saturday May 4th, 2002 3:14 AM
that last post by "noone" says it all. all the rest of the posts on here seem juvenile compared to what "noone" said. the school has no basis. the right-wingers on campus look like sniveling stooges, whining because someone impinged on david horowitz's speech for years on the "free speech" issue but SJP holds a sit-in (and more importantly, highly effective non-confrontational protests on a regular basis) and every conservative on campus is ready to start the political purges. all after the nationally syndicated story about the birth of an israeli divestment movement at uc-berkeley. all at a time when uc-berkeley's *real funders* need to make the public forget about israel and get ready for a whole new front in the region with a ground war in iraq.

conservatives should be ashamed of themselves for supporting these kinds of uc-berkeley policies for political reasons. the fact is that conservatives know they cannot fight a popular battle ... instead they must resort to kissing the ass of authority.

the police in berkeley are going too far with their response to legitimate political dissent. people in the USA want to pretend like we have the free-est government, but in no european or canadian country would these kinds of police responses ever be accepted at a protest. witnessing BPD and campus police's responses to protests over the past 2 years, and especially since september 11th, there needs to be serious questions from ALL local activists about what the hell is going on.
by lanmonkey
Friday Oct 4th, 2002 10:36 AM
I am through being aware of both sides of the issue. It's hard to seriously view the other side if its actions are devoid of common sense and honesty. I promise to vomit over my TV set the very next time I hear the word "IZRAELI AGGRESSION" rolling of the tongues of Arafat, Erakat or any other clown pushing the official and highly improbable Palestinian party line. Thanks for turning me into the Zionazi I wasn't before.

Salam aleikum!
by I Love MLK
Wednesday Oct 23rd, 2002 3:58 AM
OK - get this - Martin Luther King, a leader of our movement wrote a "Letter to an Anti Zionist Friend" you can find it on the web easily. When I share this with my friends on the left they dismiss his words. What has the left come to ? Most of us just want peace to live, plant, have kids and make love. Anti Zionism is counter revolutionary, and has set our movement back a hundred years. Most lefties mean to imply anti-colonialism, but the message has been hijacked by those whose body oder smells of the burning flesh of my ancestors. Yes Hatem and Snehal I mean you. You are clearly and simply neo-facists in sheeps clothing. You don't fool me ! Many on the left should weep at thier ignorance, and how their well intentioned love has been turned into hate by following your lies and marches. I know you don't understand, let me state it plainly. Your words hurt, and make me unable to support you. Your words restimulate a fear, and a smell, they are Power-Over words. So I urge all on the left to be more sensitive to their Jewish comrades, please listen to us and turn from your cruel ways. Join with us in our quest for peace, justice and dignity. In closing I will say that I think protesting the Sharon government IS NOT anti-Jewish, Israel is a thriving multi-cultural democracy that can with stand protests and non-violent CD. I am opposed to suiside murderers, and in favor of a free and democratic Palestine, in fact we need peace there to stabalize the environment and build democratic institutions. I blame the Arafat and the world for what they have done to the Palestinian peoples, not Israel. So get with the program people, get out of the group think mentality and do your homework.
by .........
Wednesday Oct 23rd, 2002 7:11 AM
What a load. Anyone supporting a racial purist, theocratic medieval state like Israel should be ashamed of themselves. Israel is busy killing Palestinians and all you can do is harp on about minor political differences. Shame on you.
Oh please.

Things are quite simple afterall:

While the Palestinian Arabs do not constitute a separate ethnic people, everyone beleives that creating a second Arab Palestinian country (after Jordan) is a necessity. This is the only way Israel could remain a country for the Jewish people, and the only way there could be a permanent end to Palestinian terror.

However, this process can only begin and proceed in a peaceful way, which is why the Arabs have to end terror attacks before political negotiations can start.

Therefor, it's disingenious to start deminstrating for "Jusitce" in "Palestine". Secutiry is part of the Human Rights, and Israeli Jews have been denied security since it was re-established in 1948. Land for Peace also means that there will be no more Land to the Arabs without Peace for the Israelis. Terror is not peace.

Now, you pro-Palestinian demonstrators can hollor as much as you want. It won't change anything, and it certainly will not give Israelis more security, and thus, not an inch of land for the Arabs.

The best way to crreate another Arab state in the region (the 22nd in order) would be to demonstrate for an end to Arab terrorism, which would in turn change Israeli public opinion into favouring more concessions, and thus the creation of an Arab state. The opposite (demonstrating aganist Israeli security control) will prevent the creation of that state.

Are you too blind to realize this?

And finally. I never understood what was so progressive about supporting the creation of an Arab state. Democracy doesn't exist in the Arab world, and dreams to that effect only exist in the West. Even if there were to be created a democratic Palestine, this "apostate" state would find itself in constant militant conflict with the Islamists in its midst (cf all other Arab countries, incl. Algeria, Egypt etc).

It will never work. Islam doesn't accept democracy per definition (Islam rules the political life of states and its inhabitants as well as opposed to Christianity and Judaism).

The result will be that Arab residents of Judea-Samaria and Gaza will be less well off in an Arab state than they currently are (as was the case before the Israeli liberation of these provinces).

Supporting Arab dictators and future political and religious oppression is not progressive in any way. calling for an end to Arab Islamic terrorism against civilians, and political negotiations thereafter IS !
by ...........
Sunday Nov 3rd, 2002 7:35 PM
Not everyone believes that a separate state should be created. This is only the propaganda of the ruling classes and the blind masses. Also the Palestinian terrorist organizations often call for this. This is because both groups know that it will be seen as progress along the way to a solution by most, while at the same time in actuality it will only bolster the conflict on which these groups thrive at the expense of the common people.
Many oppose the 2-state solution. Many feel that Israel and Palestine both need to move past a medieval model of a state - racial and religious - and into the secular modern era.
Historically speaking, in recent times, the separate state solution to racial problems has been tried in 2 well-known cases. One would be the Apartheid ("living apart") program of the late South African white regime. This program established separate states for non-whites ("transitional" states) known as "homelands" complete with passport system etc. This was the essence of 'living apart' (apartheid in Afrikaaner) - the creation of separate ethnic states.

The other recent (although less so) example would be India and Pakistan, where the British divided India into a Muslim region (Pakistan) and a Hindu region (India) supposedly to curb ethnic rivalry. The great testament to the 'success' of this solution can be found in Kashmir.
by ...........
Sunday Nov 3rd, 2002 7:37 PM
Not everyone believes that a separate state should be created. This is only the propaganda of the ruling classes and the blind masses. Also the Palestinian terrorist organizations often call for this. This is because both groups know that it will be seen as progress along the way to a solution by most, while at the same time in actuality it will only bolster the conflict on which these groups thrive at the expense of the common people.
Many oppose the 2-state solution. Many feel that Israel and Palestine both need to move past a medieval model of a state - racial and religious - and into the secular modern era.
Historically speaking, in recent times, the separate state solution to racial problems has been tried in 2 well-known cases. One would be the Apartheid ("living apart") program of the late South African white regime. This program established separate states for non-whites ("transitional" states) known as "homelands" complete with passport system etc. This was the essence of 'living apart' (apartheid in Afrikaaner) - the creation of separate ethnic states.

The other recent (although less so) example would be India and Pakistan, where the British divided India into a Muslim region (Pakistan) and a Hindu region (India) supposedly to curb ethnic rivalry. The great testament to the 'success' of this solution can be found in Kashmir.

On the other hand, secularization and the abolition of racial discrimination in law can be seen in just about every succesful, peaceful country on the face of the earth. You will be hard pressed to find one of these countries that did not, at one time, struggle with ethnic conflict at some point before adopting these policies.
by sally
Thursday Jan 30th, 2003 2:10 PM
these photos are great
keep up the marches and demonstrations

the palestinian people are depending on us so please boycott israeli and american products
like
coca-cola
nestle products
pepsi
7up
etc
for more info (http://www.boycottisrael.com)










by Jim
Friday Mar 14th, 2003 9:02 PM
"Free from Israeli Terror."
Free from Israelis
Free from Jews
Judenrein
-Ya know what--Its you that sounds like the nazi-
by Bertha Blaster
Thursday Jan 29th, 2004 1:24 AM
Uh..christopher,

despite what it may seem that arab countries are the demons of the world, think for just one stinkin' moment if you can about all the damage the U.S. government has done to the rest of the world, including the middle east!!!
duh...name one true humanitarian thing America has done, besides sending over old rice and grain to starving Ethiopians many eons ago...and since then??
I can name a few uglies.
please keep reading about what really goes on. yes there are fanatics both in the middle east, in Israel/zionists are extremits by all definitions as are fundamentalists Muslims and Christians. Anyone on the extreme of their beliefs is dangerous, anyone!
but underneath the cloak of lies and propaganda, American is doing some really nasty things to the world.

peace.
by Bertha Blaster
Thursday Jan 29th, 2004 1:55 AM
None of this hysterical reactionary crap matters. The truth is that Israel stole Palestine, (and yes it existed for THOUSANDS OF YEARS before(duh) with the help of goddamn-always meddling in other people's lives-@#$@# Britain-and Israel are now are doing their damndest to eradicate Palestinians from existence without one iota of humanity. they've lost they're bloody minds in the pursuit of self-preservation!! Ever heard a Zionist speak??? not an ordinary jew, but a zionist>?!

The point is: It doesn't matter whether or not Arabs want democracy, it's their right not to. Just like it's our, U.S., right not to choose communism or a monarchy or whatever?!! It doesn't matter how they live or don't live or if they agree with what we feel or think or do according to our great white western angle on things, it's their existence! We can try to influence or help them but cannot force them to change without serious repercussions. imagine if somone tried to do that to U.S.??? we'd fight back any way we could, including terrorism! duh...
But what does matter is that Israel is sytematically destroying Palestinians just like the jews were once destroyed, without justification. persecuted. It's not a coincedence that thousands of jews around the world are also against the occupation..? they learned. others didn't.
read the signs.
So wake up Americans and various other humans, and stop supporting this genocide! Don't buy the lies, be a fool for fanaticism on another side or be swayed by the whole 'anti-semetic' cop out. Ask yourself why the U.S., is really supporting Israel?? and what they get out of it??
Oh, and Palestinians are semetic too! ha!
It's amazing what people can come up with when they are totally committed to their own cause. Even the destruction of another!
Don't wait till most of the population of Palestine are gone to realize what is really going on. Period. WAKE UP!

NOTHING MATTERS BUT WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON, PALESTINIANS ARE BEING KILLED FOR THEIR LAND. LIKE THE INDIANS, AFRICANS, ABORIGINES, ETC ETC............

-goil from jewish ancestry but not jewish...(does that even matter???)

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