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How can people celebrate ethnic cleansing?
by blahh
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 4:46 PM
On April 17th 2002, UC Berkeley students gathered to celebrate Israeli Independence Day. While celebrations in Israeli itself this year were grim due to the increasing brutality of the war, Berkeley students were on the whole upbeat about the mass killings. While many signs said that "Israel wants Peace" it was clear by the anti-Palestinian rhetoric(calling Palestinians terrorists and praising Sharon’s actions) that this Peace would be that of an apartheid state over a conquered people.
Whatever one thinks about the events of 1948 and 1949, the death and destruction are hardly things that should be celebrated.

"As a consequence of the fighting in Palestine/Israel between 1947 and 1949, over 700,000 Palestinian Arabs became refugees"

"One Israeli military intelligence document indicates that at least 75 percent of the refugees left due to Zionist or Israeli military actions, psychological campaigns aimed at frightening Arabs into leaving, and direct expulsions. Only about 5 percent left on orders from Arab authorities. There are several well-documented cases of mass expulsions during and after the military operations of 1948-49 and massacres and atrocities that led to large-scale Arab flight. The best-known instance of mass expulsion is that of the 50,000 Arabs of the towns of Lydda and Ramle. The most infamous atrocity occurred at Deir Yasin, a village near Jerusalem, where estimates of the number of Arab residents killed in cold blood by Israeli fighters range from about 125 to over 250.


Here is a map of Palestinan refugees worldwide from :

Here is a map of Palestinain refugees in the Middle East:
§Acknowledgement of mass transfers
by blah
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 4:59 PM
While taking in refugees is usually a good thing, Israel's policy of taking in anyone who is Jewish is intended more as a way to guarantee a Jewish majority than to protect immigrants. The shear number of those being brought into Israel is a number the proIsraeli crowd celebrates but in any other country it would be seen as a form of ethnic cleansing (since its making up for a local population that was pushed out). It would be in many was comparable to apartheid South Africa having come up with a policy to take in millions of white immigrants to guarantee white rule.
§Doing the Ethnic Cleansing Shuffle
by blah
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 5:03 PM
§Wrapping oneself in the flag
by blah
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 5:11 PM
After 9/11 the American people were told by the media that flying American flags was a way to show mourning for the deaths in New York. Quickly it became apparent that this was not the case and the patriotism was used to rally support for carpet bombing of Afghan civilians. ProIsrael groups in the US are doing the same with the Israeli flag. Flying the Israeli flag has nothing to do with being Jewish and opposing antisemitism and has everything to do with making Palestinians in the US feel unwelcome. For a Palestinian, seeing an Israeli flag on a US campus is a hate crime every bit as painful as it would be for a Jewish student to be forced to see others rallying with Nazi flags.
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by Abulka
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 5:11 PM
Maybe the falafel just didn't cost any money? Not all things free are necessarily demanding liberation from an opressor regime.
by idunno, U tell me
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 5:14 PM
by the burningman
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 5:15 PM
There should have been a riot.

Those people are monsters who are traitors to every thing decent Jews have fought for. They are fascists who celebrate a culture of death, but are so racist they can't even recognize it.
by Zionist Oppressor
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 5:16 PM
Hundreds of UCB students who have no affiliation with either side have in the course of a week gotten to see the Palestinian supporters take over a building and hold angry protests. Now they get to see pro-Israel kids having fun and calling for peace.

Hehehe, preaching to the choir may feel good, but winning the battle for public opinion feels even better. Good job SJP, Palestine is lucky to have you!
by shannon
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 5:18 PM
Everyone was having a riot watching the Palestinian group protest a party. They looked like asses!
by Anti-Zionist
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 5:22 PM
I agree, the PR is great. Serious Palestinian supporters versus clueless Israel supporters who are more MTV-addled than conscious of political realities. This is the same dynamic seen in the region, with Israeli's dancing at a disco while a war rages on not more than 20 kilometers away.

The world sees Israeli citizens as brainwashed and kept ignorant. Does their lack of seriousness or thoughtfulness do anything to fight this perception?
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 5:25 PM
Check out that nice ass in the zionist T-shit in the lower right of the ethnic cleansing shuffle. I wish I had been there.
by Ariel Sharon
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 5:25 PM
You can tell yourself that all day long, but at the end of the day, all of us 'clueless kids' are whooping ass in every arena where it ounts.

The sad lament of the loser is a pathetic thing indeed.

Free Palestine! Free Falafel! HAHAHAHA
by DA Real Thing Buddy
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 5:26 PM
Zionist girls are hot. the left one is way nicer!
by Your mom
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 5:32 PM
Dude, don't talk that way about my mama.
by Your mom
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 5:32 PM
Dude, don't talk that way about my mama.
by Susanna
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 5:33 PM
It's really a pity that leftists choose to focus their efforts on the Palestinan issue while the Arab slave trade in Sudan continues virtually unchallenged.
by Look at this one!
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 5:33 PM
Oh ya, i love those naughty girls who strap bombs to their bodies and detonate on buses. this one is hot!
by Daniel Warner
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 5:57 PM
"It's really a pity that leftists choose to focus their efforts on the Palestinan issue while the Arab slave trade in Sudan continues virtually unchallenged."

If there is a slave trade in Sudan, then that is awful. That certainly does not receive a lot of press, I have not heard anything about it, and I'd certainly like to hear more. Why don't you give it some? Indymedia is an open forum.

The thing is, if there is a slave trade in Sudan, I doubt American money is going to it, and if there is, I say we start campaigning to end it. But I doubt there is any Ameican money in it.

In the meantime about $6 billion in American taxes goes to Israel's military annually. I don't want to fund a theocracy in Israel for the same reason I don't wanna fund a theocracy in Saudi Arabia or any Islamic theocracy. Israel is a theocracy. Admit it. I could convert to Judaism and go there whenever I damn well pleased. I have a relative who lives in Israel, a native of the U.S. and a Christian. She is free to live there while many Palestinians are denied that freedom. I've talked to Israelis online who've said they don't want Arabs in Israel because they don't want it to become "like Bosnia." Quite frankly, I don't like subsidizing racism.

I find all targets on civilians disgusting. Neither Israeli children nor Palestinian children created this conflict, and they certainly have no power to stop it. The fact that they are targeted by both sides is sickening. I've seen enough pictures of Palestinian children with gunshot wounds to the head to know that the IDF targets children the same way Hamas or Islamic Jihad does. Don't deny it. I'm just glad that my money isn't going to Hamas, Islamic Jihad, or al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, and if it were I'd certainly try to stop it the way I'd like to stop the flow of money to Israel. Which is the goal of leftists who "choose to focus their efforts on the Palestinian issue." The Palestinian issue many of us are focusing on is not support for Arafat, the PNA, Islamic Jihad, Hamas, or an Islamic state in Palestine. We just don't want our hands bloodied by Israel's actions.
by easy solution
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 6:05 PM
Don't pay taxes.
by Daniel Warner
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 6:18 PM
I could refuse to pay taxes and rot in jail and the money will flow unhindered to Israel. Or I could pay taxes and have some semblance of a say in where they go. Which is more effective? Be realistic.
by Daniel Warner
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 6:20 PM
...Henry David Thoreau tried that. It didn't work.
by deflator
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 6:23 PM
I love how numbers just change. Israel receives 2.7 Billion dollars a year, not 6 billion. Egypt recieves 2 billion, Jordan recieves 400 million, and the Palestinian Authority 75 million. The entire US foreign aid budget is 5 million. If we want to seriously understand the middle east then let's speak in realisitic terms.

Yes, there is a slave trade in Sudan, there are even more human rights abuses committed in Egypt (homosexuals are hanged in Egypt) than in Israel. In Saudi Arabis, 14 school girls died in a school fire when firemen would not let them out because they were not in proper Islamic dress. The Palestinian Authority has hung about 12 people in the past year for doing activities contrary to Arafat's agenda. The PA receives 75 million a year. Lebanon does not give work permits to people of Palestinians descent adn the list goes on...If we want to talk about withholding money from those who commit human right abuses, then let's take a serious survey of the middle east.
by easy solution
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 6:26 PM
>I could refuse to pay taxes and rot in jail

That depends on how you go about doing it. Make a display of yourself, and the government will make an example of you. But work off the books, and who's to know?

by Daniel Warner
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 6:37 PM
What budget are you talking about? The federal budget to Israel? What about state budgets? What about state investments in Israel? Remember that money comes from many different sources. Some of the money going to support apartheid in South Africa was from bonds invested by state colleges. A lot of money is under the table.

I've not heard of any financial support to the PA before. If that is true, then thank you for drawing light upon the subject. It's not entirely surprising. We ought to oppose aid to all these regimes, Israel, PA, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Jordan, Pakistan (where "President" General Musharraf can be President without holding elections. For some -strange- reason Bush sympathizes with this), and on and on.
by Daniel Warner
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 6:43 PM
Exactly how do I go off the books? I'd honestly like to know. Is there a website that explains this? I still pay taxes every time I purchase something. Am I expected to steal everything?
by a jordanian
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 6:43 PM
there aren't any dinasaurs on the earth anymore and I sure don't miss them. should the palestinians cease to be, i doubt i'll miss them either. it would be best if they would just mix in with the other arab countries, but my country doesn't wnat them either. the question comes, where are they to go? i hear somalia is nice this time of year.
by anon
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 6:45 PM

Congressional researchers have disclosed that between 1974 and 1989, $16.4 billion in U.S. military loans were converted to grants and that this was the understanding from the beginning. Indeed, all past U.S. loans to Israel have eventually been forgiven by Congress, which has undoubtedly helped Israel's often-touted claim that they have never defaulted on a U.S. government loan.

December 1997:
For many years the American media said that "Israel receives $1.8 billion in military aid" or that "Israel receives $1.2 billion in economic aid." Both statements were true, but since they were never combined to give us the complete total of annual U.S. aid to Israel, they also were lies--true lies.

Recently Americans have begun to read and hear that "Israel receives $3 billion in annual U.S. foreign aid." That's true. But it's still a lie. The problem is that in fiscal 1997 alone, Israel received from a variety of other U.S. federal budgets at least $525.8 million above and beyond its $3 billion from the foreign aid budget, and yet another $2 billion in federal loan guarantees. So the complete total of U.S. grants and loan guarantees to Israel for fiscal 1997 was $5,525,800,000.
by Daniel Warner
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 6:48 PM
Jordanian's words (if they really are a Jordanian) demonstrate exactly why we ought not to fund any of the regimes in the Mideast. If Palestinians are not welcome anywhere in the Mideast they ought to be welcome in the U.S.
by Daniel Warner
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 6:51 PM
Thank you for clarifying my point, that a lot of this money is under the table. I've even heard that U.S. money has gone to Hamas to undermine secular nationalism in Palestine. If true, it's still not surprising.
by Tm
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 7:09 PM
"If Palestinians are not welcome anywhere in the Mideast they ought to be welcome in the U.S."

Oh yeah! We all want to live next door to people who will blow us up if they think we looked at them funny sideways. If you do consider buying a house next to a Palestinian, make sure you have a survey done first. Last thing you want is to get into a property line dispute with one of these nuts.
by Daniel Warner
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 7:14 PM
You seriously believe all Palestinians are suicide bombers? If that were the case there wouldn't be any Palestinians. Use your brain.
by —†—†—†—
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 7:15 PM
"Oh, Susanna,
Oh don't you cry for me!
For I come from Eastern Europe
Now I'm enslaved by Israelis"

<<It's really a pity that leftists choose to focus their efforts on the Palestinan issue while the Arab slave trade in Sudan continues virtually unchallenged.>>

It's really a pity that Zionists choose to focus their efforts on the Sudan issue while the sex slave trade in Israel continues virtually unchallenged

Women trafficked from Eastern Europe, were stripped and sold naked as slaves to Tel Aviv traders for US$500-1,000. Smuggling, fraudulent documents, collaboration between police and brothel owners are involved. There are routine brutal beatings and sexual abuse. (New York Times 11 January 1998)

While trafficked women are frequently arrested as illegal workers, the men who brought them to Israel -- many of whom are Israeli citizens -- are not. Justice Ministry spokeswoman Etty Eshed said the government would think about making legal changes to address trafficking in the "near future" but had no date or plan for doing so. (Elisabeth Eaves, "Israel not the promised land for Russian sex slaves," Reuters, 23 August 1998)

Police in Israel say they are powerless to stop the flow of trafficked women until the laws change. "They (trafficked women) are very much afraid to come to the police and complain, so the police really can't do anything," said spokeswoman Linda Menuhin. "The problem is there is no law against trafficking people, and no law against prostitution." Rachel Benziman, legal adviser to the Israel Women's Network, said there are a variety of crimes -- rape, abduction, battery, deceit and theft -- which the authorities rarely bother to prosecute for, even though they have the power to do so. "It's not a problem of finding the right section in the criminal code. It is more a problem of finding the women who will testify and finding the motivation. When it comes to drug dealing, the police don't wait for someone to come into their office and say they have found drugs. They look for it. We expect them to do the same thing for the trafficking of women -- but they don't," she said. (Elisabeth Eaves, "Israel not the promised land for Russian sex slaves," Reuters, 23 August 1998)

Israel does not have a specific law against the sale of human beings. (Michael Specter, "Traffickers’ New Cargo: Naive Slavic Women," New York Times, 11 January 1998)

If trafficked and prostituted women are caught they are deported. Since 1994, not one woman has testified against a trafficker. (Betty Lahan, director of Neve Tirtsa Prison, Michael Specter, "Traffickers’ New Cargo: Naive Slavic Women," New York Times, 11 January 1998)

Lyubov, 17, arrived in Israel from a Russian coal mining city only to be sold into prostitution. Now she sits in a prison cell awaiting expulsion as an illegal worker. Six months ago, a man in Lyubov's hometown told the young woman he could get her a plane ticket, a visa and a job abroad. She entered Israel with a tour group and was met by a hotel owner who befriended her and gave her a job as a cleaner in exchange for a room. The hotel owner introduced her to friends, showed her around and taught her some Hebrew until one day he told her to get out of his car and into another. Then he drove away. "At first I didn't know I had been sold. Then my owner told me he had bought me for $9,000," Lyubov said in an interview in a prison office. Her new "owner," as she calls him, told her she would work as a call girl. It was the beginning of a stint as an unpaid prostitute -- part of an international crime phenomenon which women's groups see as a modern slave trade. Lyubov's "owner" kept her and eight other women in two apartments. He never paid any of them but instead said they were indebted to him for their plane tickets and every expense incurred, from doctors' visits to haircuts. Transported to clients by drivers and often under guard, Lyubov had sex with an average of six men a day for about $75 an hour. All she could keep were tips. She worked round the clock, seven days a week, with no holidays except for Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the Jewish calendar. (Elisabeth Eaves, "Israel not the promised land for Russian sex slaves," Reuters, 23 August 1998)

There are over 10,00 women in prostitution in Tel Aviv. (CEDAW Report, 8 April 1997)

Men pay for 25,000 acts of prostitution every day. There are 250,000 foreign male workers who help create a demand for prostituted women. Women are held in apartments, bars and brothels where they are bought by up to 15 men a day. They sleep in shifts, four to a bed. (Police officials, Michael Specter, "Traffickers’ New Cargo: Naive Slavic Women," New York Times, 11 January 1998)

The Russian mafia has moved into Israel to profit from trafficking and prostitution. Police in Israel have been keeping around 30 organized key crime suspects under surveillance. (Kevin Connolly, "How Russia’s mafia is taking over Israel’s underworld," BBC, 3 April 1998)

The Tropicana in Tel Aviv is one of the busiest brothels. The women are all Russian. There are 12 cubicles where 20 women work in shifts, 8 during the daytime, 12 at night. Buyers are Israeli soldiers, business executives, tourists, and foreign workers. The brothel owner said, "Israelis love Russian girls. They are blonde and good looking, and they are desperate. They are ready to do anything for money." (Michael Specter, "Traffickers’ New Cargo: Naive Slavic Women," New York Times, 11

by Daniel Warner
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 7:32 PM
Still exists in practically every country in some form, illegal or not. It is a disgusting practice wherever it exists. Pointing a finger at one country where it exists and ignoring another is silly. Fight it wherever it occurs.
by case in point
Wednesday Apr 17th, 2002 9:05 PM
Laki Bali Reddy is a case in point so yes the slave trade exists everywhere, but is it based on religion is the question? the slave trade in Sudan occurs when Muslim slavetraders go and look for christians to sell as slaves because they are infidels anyway. That's messed up.
by Susanna
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 12:11 AM
I can't believe you don't know that there is a slave trade in Sudan. Do you know where Sudan is? Do you even know where Israel is? Today's young people are under-educated and over-opinionated.

By the way, why aren't you guys out there protesting American aid to Egypt (a homophobic and sexist bully-praetorian regime) and Jordan (an oppressive monarchy)? Both receive substantial US funding.
by Susanna
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 12:35 AM
Perhaps then you should focus your energy on eliminatung the Russian mafia. Oh, and re: your song...don't quit the day job, honey.
by Hosanna
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 1:05 AM
Interesting it is, that a Zionist ("Susanna") attempts to deflect criticism of Israel's ethnic cleansing and wholesale slaughter of Palestinians by introducing the unrelated issue of slavery in Sudan, when in actuality, the abhorrent practice of _buying_and_selling_ human slaves is practiced in Israel by Israeli citizens.

by Says who?
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 1:08 AM
IF you make a BS claim like that I expect to actually see proof and substantiation.

Slavery is illegal in Israel -- plain & simple.

Now I can definitely prove that the religious police in Saudi Arabia kept 14 girls from surviving a fire lest they be seen indecently without their shawls. Where are all the humanitarians on this issue? Why isn't the UN Human Rights Commission sending inquiries of finding in? Why aren't you complaining about it.
by debate coach
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 1:12 AM
Alright. class, it's time for a pop quiz.

What kind of logical fallacy is this?
by Hosanna
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 1:38 AM
"Slavery is illegal in Israel -- plain & simple."

Sorry. Although it's as obvious that you are a liar, it's not so
plain and simple.

"Slavery and the buying and selling of persons are not
criminal offences.
The [Israel] Ministry of Justice is
reportedly in the process of drafting a provision to
criminalize the buying and selling of persons." [emphasis added]
Source: Amnesty International
by urh from slovenia
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 1:57 AM
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 2:00 AM
by Eric McLeod (pweent [at]
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 2:03 AM
I suspect they are exposed to a lot of propaganda, like we are. I suspect many of them have not even really been told what the occupation is. I doubt many have seen it. Remember, those fences are designed to keep the Palestinians out of Israel as much as they are supposed to keep the Israelis out of Palestine.

That's why they shoot at journalists...

Can't have people seeing what you're really promoting...

So let them have their stupid party.
by 1
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 4:07 AM
remember the images of the 'dancing palestinians' so heavily broadcast after 911? well above you have some lovely images of dancing jews as arab bodies lie buried beneath the rubble of jenin.

you're losing credibility, israel, as the world gets wise quickly to the horrifying truths of your policies. it's hard to keep squeezing the image-machine for public support when the world sees tanks, rubble, body parts, and terrified civilians as the counter-argument.

so keep singing and dancing; keep those smiles up long enough & soon your faces will start to crack, showing what's really underneath.
by israel is committing genocide
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 4:39 AM
wealthy americans with no understanding of this conflict making fun when there is a genocide going on in the Middle east??What a fucking bunch of fascists!!
by California taxpayer
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 4:55 AM
Don't these rich kids have any school work to do? When I was in school, from grammar school through and including college, I had lots of homework. College homework for liberal arts majors consisted of required reading of several books for each of 5 courses, writing a term paper for each which meant spending lots of time in the library researching and taking home books to read for the term paper. Since those were the days before computers and before readily available photocopy machines, references were kept either on index cards or separate sheets of paper. My papers were typed on a manual typewriter with carbons for copies, as electric typewriters were a new in the late 1960s-early 1970s, and of course, I had what was old, not being able to afford new things. I also worked part-time while I went to college full time so as to assist in paying living expenses. Photocopy machines were also new then and not so readily available. There were no large photocopy places like Kinko's, etc. I managed to get to the large peace demonstrations as the Vietnam War was raging then, but I certainly did not have time to waste, and that is what it appears these rich kids are doing.

Coming from a Holocaust workingclass family, I am horrified at Israel and we all always have been. I am firmly committed to boycotting all Israeli products and events. I am also committed to never voting for any pro-Israel politician, which is all of the Democrats and Republicans at all levels of government.

It might interest the rich kids dancing around in these pictures that the workingclass has a strong presence on this website. UC is of course our blood, sweat and tears, reserved mostly for the rich. In fact, it functions as a finishing school for the rich. Sometimes the workingclass gets in, but these days, the workingclass schools no longer can prepare the students for UC, that is, the school work required by UC. I remind all the rich kids playing around at UC that the workingclass is the majority by definition and when we see this playing around, we are very bitter, and we vote.
by Mr. Jones
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 5:40 AM
I remember the non-stop images of the 'dancing Palestinians'

"EFF has confirmed that CNN has blocked use of the word "IndyMedia" in
its online discussion groups, perhaps in response to a report that
appeared on IndyMedia charging that footage of Palestinians celebrating
in the wake of the September 11 terrorist attacks were recycled from older coverage."

"Palestinian President Yasser Arafat took part in a popular
campaign in the Palestinian territories to donate blood
and to show solidarity with the people and the government of
the United States, which was exposed to the worst terror act
in modern history on Tuesday."

"Vehicle possibly related to New York terrorist attack.
White, 2000 Chevrolet van with New Jersey registration with
'Urban Moving Systems' sign on back seen at Liberty State
Park, Jersey City, NJ, at the time of first impact of
jetliner into World Trade Center.

"Three individuals with van were seen celebrating after
initial impact and subsequent explosion. FBI Newark
Field Office requests that, if the van is located, hold for
prints and detain individuals."
Five men detained as suspected conspirators
by Bob Kz
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 6:12 AM
The workingclass don't have time to bang out posts on this web site, they're too busy working. People who are truly part of the workingclass have a lot less time on their hands than they did in college. Ca. Taxpayer sounds like another "trust fund" child who can't fathom that somehow people are able to manage their time in order to do things that they see as important just because he couldn't. Calling these kids rich is just a cover, and a pitiful one at that. Are we to also believe that the pro-Palestine students who protested a week or so ago were also "rich kids"? And why weren't they in the library, Ca. Taxpayer?

Here's something to vote on Ca. Taxpayer. It cost $15,000 to send a kid to Cal, $11,000 paid for by the taxpayers of California. Find the candidates who will eliminate the students needing to pay the other $4,000, make going to Cal "free" for all students, and vote for them. Oops, I forgot, "Sometimes the workingclass gets in, but these days, the workingclass schools no longer can prepare the students for UC, that is, the school work required by UC." Can't handle the workload. Tisk, Tisk. I think you're underselling these kids. But hey, it's that strong encouragement from people like you that make them believe they can never be more than just the "workingclass".

I admire people who do an honest days work for an honest days pay. I'm not sure you do.
by smitty
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 6:20 AM
Celebrating??? Urban Moving Systems???

"According to the complaint, on or about September 14, 2001, Suter departed from the United States and left no one acting as an agent for Urban."

by NC
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 6:34 AM
"I celebrate ethnic cleansing with a dish of steak and lobster accompanied with a bottle of the finest champagne." - Norm Chomsky, circa March 2002

Keep those checks coming and the master continues to thank you for your patronage.
by NC
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 6:37 AM
For those who wonder, Norm is Noam's twin brother. But they both share the same philosophy, just Noam won't say so. Hurts his image, you know.
by israel is committing genocide
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 8:17 AM
Please provide an url or any other proof that this qoute isnt just made up by you.Thank you.
by palestinains are committing homocide
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 8:28 AM
Isn't it obvious that the postings by NC are a joke? And you want a url? Just how stupid are you? Nevermind.
by Laughing Skeptic
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 9:34 AM
How is it that when students support Palestine, the Taliban, the Sept. 11th bombings, Iraq, and other "noble" causes, they are called activists and freedom fighters while those supporting the US, Israel, and "ignoble" causes are called brainwashed Nazis? Very simple. Hypocriscy. You all are so convinced that your view is blameless and correct that you are blind to the facts. If you can prove that a suicide bomber's killing a Jewish child is somehow more noble, and more worthy, than a soldier killing a known terrorist, you will be a remarkable person indeed.

Don't you think, Jews who support Palestine, that they would kill you in a heartbeat if it advanced their cause? Tell them to prove it otherwise, and they won't be able to.
by Freepers are inbred
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 9:35 AM
They fill up IMC servers with mindless rantings about how they're so patriotic and everyone who opposes them are communists and other crap. If you really want to have fun, go out and find some right-wing message boards and give them a taste of their own medicine. Post LARGE (10-20k) messages made up of your favorite writings over and over till they either stop allowing posts or crash.

The sheeple keep on calling it a war, so bring the war to their front door.
by debate coach
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 9:51 AM
>How is it that when students support Palestine, the Taliban, the Sept. 11th bombings, Iraq, and other "noble" causes, they are called activists and freedom fighters while those supporting the US, Israel, and "ignoble" causes are called brainwashed Nazis?

When people support Palestine, they are not supporting the Taliban, the Sept. 11th bombings, or Iraq.

To learn more about logic, click here:
by neo
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 11:17 AM
Hey Susanna, has nobody ever told you to believe half of what you hear?

"...local villagers are rounded up to pose as slaves when Christian groups arrive with briefcases full of money. The "slave traders" are sometimes disguised rebel soldiers from the Sudan People's Liberation Army (SPLA). A retired Italian missionary told the IoS he saw his own parishioners posing as slaves. A European aid worker saw children she knew pretending they were in bondage. And a former rebel commander said a relative, also a soldier, had been forced to pose as a slave trader."

"In reality, many of the "slaves" are fakes. Rebel officials round up local villagers to pose for the cameras. They recruit fake slavers - a light skinned soldier, or a passing trader - to "sell" them. The children are coached in stories of abduction and abuse for when the redeemer, or a journalist, asks questions. Interpreters may be instructed to twist their answers.",1113,2-11-997_1150119,00.html

by neo
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 11:22 AM
Hey Susanna, has nobody ever told you to believe half of what you hear?

"...local villagers are rounded up to pose as slaves when Christian groups arrive with briefcases full of money. The "slave traders" are sometimes disguised rebel soldiers from the Sudan People's Liberation Army (SPLA). A retired Italian missionary told the IoS he saw his own parishioners posing as slaves. A European aid worker saw children she knew pretending they were in bondage. And a former rebel commander said a relative, also a soldier, had been forced to pose as a slave trader."

"In reality, many of the "slaves" are fakes. Rebel officials round up local villagers to pose for the cameras. They recruit fake slavers - a light skinned soldier, or a passing trader - to "sell" them. The children are coached in stories of abduction and abuse for when the redeemer, or a journalist, asks questions. Interpreters may be instructed to twist their answers.",1113,2-11-997_1150119,00.html

by Dave
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 11:28 AM
It is sad how liberal jews at places like Berkely fight racism, genocide, ethnic cleansing and Apartheid -- unless they're committed by Israel. Someday, try reading the warnings David Ben Gurion wrote on the occupation of Palestinian lands.
What was the Karine A -- a cruiseline or one of many boats smuggling heavy weapons from Iran to the Palestinians?

An article in Slate documents that the Palestinian Security forces legally have 12,000 Kalashnikov rifles. Yet thousands of M-16s which were not legal under Oslo, machine guns and Stinger missles have turned up which certainly were not covered under the Oslo agreement. The Palestinans also have a seemingly endless stash of explosives as demonstrated by their killing power at the Passover Seder, at Sbarro, the Dolphinarium, and YES also in Jenin.

SO don't claim this is genocide -- It isn't. The Palestinians are attacking unarmed Israeli kids and senior citizens. Israel is striking back militarily against Palestinian terrorist and paramilitary forces. Big difference from the Nazis exterminating the Jews systematically and the Jews only fighting back against Nazi soldiers in the last extremity.

I guess it needs to be repeated that pro-Palestinian supporters should stop shutting down history classes and start learning from them!
by Arthur Donoshaytis
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 1:43 PM
nice arafat picture..... except HE'S TOO OLD TO GIVE BLOOD, ANYONE WHO THINKS HE ACTUALLY GAVE BLOOD IS A FOOL. Congrats on the berkely rally. We had one here at Purdue.
by James Matt Picola
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 2:12 PM
Flying the Israeli flag has nothing to do with being Jewish or fighting anti-semitism? While I agree that the state of Israel may be associated with ethnic cleansing, the people of the Jewish diaspora have a right to pick anything they want as a symbol of their identities, and the Israeli flag contains the star of David which is the ultimate Jewish symbol, regardless of the tyrannical state it currently represents. I don't think that an Israeli flag is a symbol of hate. I think that Sharon's head is a symbol of hate.

In order to stop instigating violence we must separate Ariel Sharon and his state from Jews worldwide, even if many of them support his genocidal mission. I am 100% for an Israeli pull out and sometimes I am confused as to why we back Israel so adamantly and why Israel exists in the first place.

However, among my Americans friends I have heard emotionally charged reactionary rhetoric from both Jews and Palestinians. As bystanders those of us who are niether Palestinian or Jewish must take the role of mediators, not Pro-Palestinian. The Palestinian people are being genocidally terminated right now but I still cannot condone the suicidal bombings of civilians in the Occupied Territories.

During Sharon's attacks the Bush Adminstration waited as the international community demanded US intervention. Powell admitted that they couldn't see where Sharon is going with this. Its obvious Sharon is not trying to stop terrorism. Each act of terrorism against Israel is another welcome excuse to attack Palestinians. The ultimate end if Sharon continues is the systematic extermination of Palestinians and the dissolution of the little political power they have gathered.

We can get involved here by protesting US military intervention abroad no matter where it happens and mediating between Jews and Palestinians in our communities. We must remember that as we support the Palestinian cause, anti-semitism is a not so distant memory and current threat to the civil rights of many Americans.

James Matt Picola
by Gabriel
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 3:11 PM
There is only one solution: arm the Palestinians. Until the Palestinians can truly defend themselves and have a territory of their own as sanctuary against the Jewish/Israeli persecution there will be no lasting peace. Israel is responsible for killing over 1500 Palestinians compared to over 400 Israelis. And this is without counting the hundreds (maybe around 500 or more) that were massacred in Jenin and other towns in the past few weeks on top of that. This includes babies, children, pregnant women, elderly people and teenagers of both sexes. And not only that but the permanent destruction of their homes even while people were still inside the buildings!! Hundreds of dead Palestinians rotting on the ground while others are put inside mass graves. Of course, the army seals the entire areas to relief agencies and news reporters so that there are no foreign witnesses or live footage. Even the Red Cross has accounts of being shot at, and we all know about the foreign reporters who have been shot and killed while taking pictures. No one in the world supports Israel, except of course America, with it's constant bombardment of pro-Israeli, Jewish-owned media.

The Jews keep mentioning the Holocaust, which the Europeans and not the Arabs were responsible for, as their justification for Israel on and on for the last half-a-century. They were innocent civilians being persecuted by racist and religiously-intolerant supremacists with a star as their symbol of unity. Their only hope being an independent state with political and military autonomy where they could build a safe sanctuary. Unfortunately, no one was willing to give them some land so they took it from the Palestinians by force. Now it has come full circle and the persecuted refugees have become the horrible Nazis (Zionists -- don't they sound similar!) while the Palestinians have become the Jews of the Holocaust. This is how the Holocaust started more than 50 years ago against the Jews and now it's all back... although the Palestinians are now the victims. And guess what? They are the evil Nazis now. So much for all your Holocaust rhetoric in all your Hollywood movies! You are heartless and ruthless like the Nazis always were. Won't you dare see yourself in the mirror and see Hitler!!!

Bush, the White House, and conservative America have rallied on behalf of Israel. Everybody can see through Bush and Powell's hypocrisy. America will always support Israel for Israel is its creation. There is little difference between the two when it comes to their political and colonial ambitions. They are working together. Israel won't stop until it has taken over most of the Middle East, little by little. At least that's the Zionist's dream. They see themselves as the "chosen" people as their Bible tells them, dismissing Jesus as a fake prophet. Even the Muslims believe in Jesus, but not the Jews, for it would displace them from their most vain desire -- to be God's chosen ones. And the crazy right-wing conservative American Christian fundamentalists believing that to support Israel is to follow with God's plan of a Jewish nation coming to being in the end times with the good Jews accepting Jesus at long last. Yes, all these reasons are pretty stupid indeed but they actually do believe them! Amazing! If you can believe all that crap you can surely believe killing innocent Palestinian women and children is perfectly ok. And these lunatics are the ones who run the world! You have Kissinger, Greenspan and Spielberg (all Jews) telling you what's best for the nation, where to put your money, and replaying the Holocaust from "Shindler's List" to "Chicken Run" wonder Americans and Israelis are so brainwashed and naive.

No, the only lasting solution if for the Palestinians to be able to defend themselves. Just like the Jews believed decades ago that the solution was a state with a strong military, the same goes here. ARM THE PALESTINIANS. And they will finally have a fair chance of protecting themselves. At the very least, Israel will be forced to find other more peaceful ways of dealing with it's neighbors. It will be an effective deterrent. If the US doesn't stop their financial and arms support for Israel then Europe and the Middle East must take action. Israel is not in the interest of Europe or the Middle East, but only of itself and America. There is no other way. European and Arab countries must support the self-defense of Palestine and the only way to do that is through arms. Now that Egypt and Jordan have distanced themselves from Israel, Libya, Lebanon, Syria, Iran and even Kuwait, Iraq and Saudi Arabia must join together with some support from Europe to arm the Palestinians and put a stop to Israel and America's Middle-East meddling.

Support the arming of Palestine!
by Rogus
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 3:37 PM
Why don’t we just eliminate all foreign aid to all countries and concentrate helping our own first before we stick our noses in other country’s business. There are plenty of problems here that this money will be better suited for. This should make both sides happy and stop the whining and complaining about how this country gets this much but this country doesn’t.

Of course despite politicians political views, they are way to busy catering to special interest groups and grabbing as much money for themselves to really care about the plight of anyone other than their own bank account
by 1
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 3:45 PM
>"What was the Karine A -- a cruiseline or one of many boats smuggling heavy weapons from Iran to the Palestinians?"

so what's the name of the vessels which bring in apache helicopters & f-18s into israel? think they're cruise lines? think they're bringing in those weapons (for which kalashnikovs, m-16s, & even stingers are no match) to shine them up & put them in museums?

>"An article in Slate documents that the Palestinian Security forces legally have 12,000 Kalashnikov rifles."

and how many weapons is israel legally allowed to have?

>"The Palestinians are attacking unarmed Israeli kids and senior citizens. Israel is striking back militarily against Palestinian terrorist and paramilitary forces."

think no palestinian seniors and kids were killed by the IDF in the last two weeks? think they were all armed, all terrorists?

perhaps you too need to be referred to the website above to learn more about logic.
A Palestinian military is just about the last thing neighboring countries like Egypt, Lebanon, and Jordan want to see just over their borders. Anybody who thinks that (better) arming the Palestinians, much less funding a military for them (more so than has already been funded) is any sort of answer is simply ignoring or completely oblivious to relations between Palestinians and other Arab countries. Most Arab countries have their own long, brutal histories with the Palestinians, and for that reason alone do not want to see these people any better armed or more militant than they already are.
by Van
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 4:19 PM
A similar pro-Israel rally occured yesterday in Santa Cruz.

Pictures and commentary:
by Mr. Jones
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 4:41 PM
Farting Artie, the Purdupe Soilermaker fool, shouts while soiling

Another Zionist apartheid apologist telling bold face LIES!

There is no upper age limit for donating blood.
Source: American Red Cross (

"Palestinians donate blood
in Gaza hospital for
victims of Tuesday's attacks
in the United States."

by Gabriel
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 4:45 PM
It is irrelevant if some Arab governments would not support arming Palestine. Pro-Palestinian sentiment and anti-Israeli sentiment are all over the Arab landscape as well as much of Europe. Iran and Sirya would have no problem arming Palestine to fight Israel. Others would join in and hope to plant some seeds within Palestinians but in the end it would be about helping their Arab and Palestinian brothers defend themselves more effectively and restraining Israel's expansionism. Most of the ill-will between Arab governments has been fueled by the US in a divide-and-conquer approach. This was done between Iran and Iraq, Iraq and Kuwait, Sirya and Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia... but now Iraq and Kuwait are talking, Iran has pledged to support Iraq if America attacks it, Egypt and Jordan have turned their backs on Israel and criticized America's role in the struggle. Even Europe and Russia have expressed support for the Palestinians. The tide is turning my friend. As long as Israel keeps attacking Palestinian civilians indiscriminately and with overwhelming power, world opinion will start looking at the Israelis and Zionist Jews as the bullies and oppresors and not as innocent victims as they have been portraying themselves for decades since WWII. Soon, there will be no more moral justification for enforcing an arms embargo on the Palestinians and everyone will join in the struggle. The US will take Israel's side, Europe and Russia will have mixed feelings, and Arab and Muslim nations will pull together. Even I was surprised when Egypt and Jordan took a stand against Israel and America. There will be no Arab support for attacking Iraq or Iran until this problem is settled and I don't see a solution coming anytime soon. Bush will have to do some more theatrics before he looses all credibility. The tide IS turning!
by jk
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 5:14 PM
But the world isn't going to see a (better) armed Palestinian militia/military anytime soon.
And the Arab countries, and most other countries you mention, have been saying similar things for years. It's all talk, just it has been for decades, and the simple fact remains, and will remain, that there is no interest in the neighboring Arab governments to give the Palestinians their own military. There wasn't 50 years ago, when the Arab countries could have easily created a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, complete with an army, and there isn't now.
Jesse, before you start lecturing on history, you maybe should take some introductory classes.

There was an Arab role in the Holocaust! Haj Amin, the Mufti of Jerusalem, and I believe a relative of Arafat's spent WWII in Berlin, egging on Hitler and Eichman to murder the Jews. He stopped the Horthy offer to release some 40,000 Jews to Palestine, and the result was almost all of them died. He also trained Moslem a unit of the Waffen SS in Bosnia that was involved in the slaughter of the Jews of Yugoslavia (around 90,000). Amin also got Hitler to commit to exterminate all the Jews of Palestine, in case Hitler ever got that far into the Middle East. So, don't tell me that the Palestinians have never considered committing ethnic cleansing or genocide.

Syria also gave safe haven to Nazi war criminals, including Alois Brunner who killed 100s of thousands of Jews in France, Slovakia and elsewhere, and was one of Eichmann's most notorious lieutenants. So don't tell me that there was no Moslem complicity in WWII and the Holocaust!

Lebanon recently hosted a major conference of groups denying the existence of the Holocaust. Holocaust denial is of course a recurring motif which has been repeated throughout the Arab world -- much like the insidious blood libels, from the Damascus Blood Libel of 1840 to Saudi papers and Arab Media suggesting that Jews commit ritual murders for Passover and/or Purim.

The Allies refrained from offering haven to Jews in part on the basis of Arab animosities which they argued ruled out large scale evacuations of Jews to North Africa. There is no telling how many deaths this caused although the numbers are sure to be in the 100s of thousands.

Nice try at revisionist history, Jesse. Now that the record is set straight, what do you have to say to that?

And before you go asserting that Jenin is evidence of genocide, my understanding is that a mere 40 bodies have been pulled from Jenin and that only 3 so far appeared to be civilians, as the others were combattants armed to the teeth with explosives and firearms or booby-trapped. Given the rampant Palestinian terrorism against innocent unarmed children and elderly at religious ceremonies, ice cream parlors and discoes, Israel has a right to go after armed personnel striking at its civilians day and night. The Nazis methodically slaughtered 6 million Jews -- mostly unarmed and passive. Nothing the sort has happened in the West Bank. This despite the fact that the Palestinian population is armed to the teeth, that it has been indoctrinated by propagandistic textbooks and mass media to believe that all Israelis and Jews are evil and to think that suicide bombing is a noble endeavor.

Some innocent Palestinians have died at Jenin and elsewhere and that is a tragedy. But the fact is that Israel has shown far more restraint in defending its civilians than the US would have and has under similar circumstances. The US would have pounded a like location with cruise missles and B-52's (witness Yugoslavia or Afghanistan). Believe me, there was probably smaller loss of innocent lives than there would have been had Israel taken measures against the terrorists in the fashion the US did. That despite the fact that Israel suffered more casualties by doing things the way they did.
by Gabriel
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 8:40 PM
The Holocaust, the Holocaust, the Holocaust!!! Can you ever hear anything but the Holocaust. Oh, the Holocaust justifies any and every action we take from then 'til eternity. The Holocaust is the reason for taking Palestine from the Palestinians so that Jews can have a safe sanctuary. The Holocaust is the worst event in human history. Please, STOP!!!

The Holocaust does not justify everything. Jews and Israelis don't have a blank check to massacre civilian populations who are simply trying to secure a life of some hope for the future. The Israelis have killed (officially) some 1500 Palestinians as opposed to over 400 Israelis. This does not count the hundreds that have been certainly killed in the secrecy of the last two weeks. WHo's doing most of the killing here? Isn't it plain and obvious? The Holocaust is not a justification for taking the land from the local Palestinians by force and forcing them to become refugees and live night and day under Israeli control and oversight. The Holocaust is not the worst event in history: more Russians died in WWII than Jews (around 7 million), tes of mlions of native American Indians died at the hands of British and American colonists and many more millions at the hands of the Spanish conquistadores. And on and on.

Palestinians have a right to defend themselves and that includes the right to bear arms (don't we have that inelianable right here in America?) and fight their Israeli oppresors. The Israelis and Zionist Jews have killed thousands of Palestinians including civilians, women and children and in their own homes in the decades following the creation of Israel. Hitler would of been proud if he was a Zionist. Hell, maybe he was. It is no secret that Zionists of the time decided to tacitly support the Holocaust as it would had serve as an excuse to demand a land for the Jews in Palestine. You can choose to deny the facts, much like the Nazis did, but Israel will never have peace when it constantly attacks and imposes its will on its Arab neighbors. And don't forget and twist the facts around: It was the Nazis with European support that killed the millions of Jews. Don't shift the blame to the Arabs to justify your current massacres.
by 1
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 9:24 PM
>"my understanding is that a mere 40 bodies have been pulled from Jenin and that only 3 so far appeared to be civilians, as the others were combattants armed to the teeth with explosives and firearms or booby-trapped."

that's funny, according to my news sources, the israeli government itself has stated that 250 palestinians were killed in jenin. other estimates have put the death toll at up to 900.

as for how many were armed and how many civilian, i guess it's difficult to tell when the bodies have been buried, burned, or decimated beyond recognition.

"armed to the teeth"? come on. in comparison to the IDF? come on. why then was the victory so swift and so complete? again, according to my news sources, the only israeli deaths during the operation resulted from an ambush situation, which again required a 'suicide bombing.' if you want to see "armed to the teeth" take a look at the israeli 'settler' population, which legally possesses the right to bear arms, unlike the palestinian population.

>"Israel has a right to go after armed personnel"

what has happened to all the unarmed men who were asked to come out of their homes and taken away, stripped naked, and imprisoned. every male in the territories (many with families to care for) was part of a paramilitary organization?

and the big question which you seem to keep avoiding, my friend, is the WHY question. why are the palestinians willing to attack civilians? why are they willing to sacrifice their lives? is it to cause aggression or is it in reaction to aggression?

if you are willing to accept the fact that palestinians are human beings, you must grant them the quality of human intelligence, of human instincts, and even a cursory knowledge of psychology reveals, surely, that only one pushed to the point of desperation would be willing to give up one's life, one's very existence.

the idea that one would die simply to commit an act of aggression seems preposterous.

i refer you once again to the website above to learn more about logic.
Anger is the way of the dark side.

I'm not shifting anything. You made an unfounded statement, saying that Arabs had no involvement in the Holocaust. This was factually false, so I disproved it. It was fair game because you made an innacurate assertion which undermines significant portions of your reasoning.

You have not refuted it back. And another logical fallacy of yours: just by the numbers and the fact that the Palestinians are and have been armed and attacking innocent civilians on a regular and large scale -- while the Jews weren't for the most part and didn't attack innocent civilians during WWII-- that proves that this isn't a genocide. To paraphrase Rob Morse, you need to stop blockading history classes and start learning from them.
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 9:51 PM
Well, I would say that the leader of the Palestinians during the 1940's, Haj Amin al-Husseini had some invovlement. he spent the war in Berlin with his mentor in Jew killing, goold old Adolph.
by chop
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 10:07 PM
why is the u.s. even involved the middle east? oh yah oil. how about ditch the car habit. also i've heard that israel receives over 5 billion with over 2.8 bill of that never leaving the u.s. ie.... going for arms to defense contractors who have people in high positions of power. money, greed, black gold, water. it isn't about humanity for goodness sake. hey u.s. leave the kids alone. i think pink floyd said that.
by Franky
Thursday Apr 18th, 2002 11:56 PM
I don't think that picture can stand the test of any verification attempt.
For a better documentation of work done with Adolf Hitler one would be better off opening the old books of the Ha'varah project of Zionists.
As for the many diversions the pro-fascists are creating it really is strange that many an educated mind cannot see how trivial the argument is when it is based on "Arabs persecute Palistinians elsewhere, why are you picking on Israel", or "there are other problems in other countries, I don't hear you saying anything about them" and when all fails according to the endoctrination of the immoral Hillel organization, shout "Anti-Semitism" and finish by dropping the bomb "Hitler".
Being a spartan solves the problem for a while, but it will come back and you will have to face it sooner or later. Stand up and fight for common sense.
The association between Haj Amin & Hitler is well-documented. I'm sure some around here are ashamed to admit it, but know it to be true. You obviously can't handle the truth.

You also provide no evidence for saying that Hillel is immoral.

I don't agree with a lot of what the Moslem Student Association does on campus, but who am I to tell them how to represent their community as I am not Moslem and they don't represent me.

But who appointed you GOD and gave you the right to pontificate that the association of Jewish Community Centers around the country's university campuses is immoral. It provides a social activities and clubs, religious support, cultural activities and on some campuses even one free meal a week.

To make a blind blanket judgement about Jews and Jewish institutions DOES make you an anti-Semite. When you are arbitrarily and reflexively critical of another community that is reflective of prejudice and I will call a spade a spade no matter how much you whine about it. Don't be all high and mighty as to how even handed you are being when you are railing against and smearing one religious and cultural group with all your might on behalf of the underdog "du jour."
by .
Friday Apr 19th, 2002 12:34 AM
by Gabriel
Friday Apr 19th, 2002 7:26 AM
Why do you bring up the minimal Arab involvement in the Jewish Holocaust during WWII? We all know it was primarily Europeans who committed the crimes. The Holocaust has nothing to do with the present situation in Palestine. We are talking about Israel and it's armed aggression on the Palestinians. So some Arabs supported the Holocaust... so did many Americans and Europeans, far more than the Arabs did. That has nothing to do with the current situation. Why do Jews keep bringing up the Holocaust over and over to justify all their violence? Because that's the only thing they can cling too that has enough weight on it. But it's time is over. You don't go around blaming America and Europe for Israel's current situation but you keep bringing up this unrelated event against the Palestinians. It makes no sense. Long past and mostly irrelevant when it comes to today's Palestinian refugees. So some Arabs supported the Holocaust during WWII, although far less than Americans and Europeans, so what? Probably most of the world supported it. It is a sad situation that people support the massive murder of innocent people, in those days the Jews and now the Palestinians. Read some Nazi propaganda and all it does is fuel hatred and blame toward the Jews. Now Israel is doing the same against the Arabs and Palestinians to justify their massacres.

I know my history. I don't know every little detail but I know a lot. Now I know that some Arabs supported the killing of Jews in WWII. What about the killing of Palestinians during WWII by Jewish settlers? Jews are proud to say they settled the land with a plow on one hand and a riffle on the other. This was way before WWII. Jews have been trying to take Palestine by force since the late 19th century. They used Britain's colonial hold on Arab lands to start the infiltration. In the beginning it started slowly and on friendly terms with the Palestinians but as soon as they had a foothold on the land they started coming in droves. Then the Palestinians started getting upset. It's ok to allow a few foreigners in your country but to start being displaced by them is not. So then the Jews started bringing in the guns to impose themselves. Very similar to how the early British/American colonists took the land from the Native Americans. With some support from Britain they kept doing it but they knew that without a very strong reason Britain would keep them on a leash. Then, lo and behold, the Jews start being persecuted. What an opportunity! The Zionists of the time, not many by then yet and with not much support from the Jewish community (even Albert Einstein didn't support the idea of a Jewish state), started tacitly encouraging the white supremacists to keep doing their persecution. The Zionists now had a great excuse to plead to Britain their case for a mass exodus of Jews to Israel. Britain still would not go for it but it allowed more numbers to pass through. The Zionist propaganda machine started spewing it rhetoric to the European Jews and soon enough the majority of Jews started supporting the idea. Better to go fight some Palestinians under British rule than the well-armed and influential Nazis. The Zionists kept allowing and encouraging more atrocities against fellow Jews and gaining momentum for their cause. In their eyes, the Holocaust was a necessary evil. So, everyone supported the Holocaust... the Europeans, the Americans, the Arabs and even the Jews!!! The Jewish Zionists supported the Holocaust. Maybe not all but those that made the tough decisions did. In the end, they will be heroes since they delivered their people from the claws of evil into their God-given land.

What a pretty story.
by Dolly Dagger (dollyd [at]
Friday Apr 19th, 2002 8:16 AM
Even more so then Haj Amin, the Industrialist Henry Ford II was a rabid anti-semite (that's why I don't believe the rumors that Jerome B. Wiesner was his golf caddy as a kid) , who had profoundly intimate dealings with Hitler. This is all well documented. I'm sure some around here are ashamed to admit it, but know it to be true. You obviously can't handle the truth.

Therefore and furthermore, the American goyim must be occupied and ethnically cleansed. Forget the USS Liberty, Remember The S.S. St. Louis!!!!!!!!
by DD
Friday Apr 19th, 2002 1:17 PM
First of all: Look at the Palestinian Media and Education System run by the PA for classic examples of hatemongering and bringing up a prejudiced populace.

Most Israelis I know believe there are two sides to the issue and that a two-state solution with Palestinians having the West Bank, Gaza and Arab E Jerusalem is the answer. Critical thinking is not the hallmark of a biased society. Yet Israel actively promotes that, which explains the significant political influence of the "doves" until many became disillusioned by the continued brainwashing of young Palestinians in the PA media and the relentless wave of suicide bombings targeting defenseless innocents.

By contrast the PA media and the Arab media generally incites the population with the insidious blood libels, with Holocaust denial, claiming that it was an fabrication to justify the Jews' immigration from Europe and by saying that Jews are infidels with no redeeming virtues. The PA media and many Arab media outlets glorify suicide bombing and martyrdom and do not distinguish between Israelis and Jews.

Also, for you to think that Zionists viewed the Holocaust as a means to an end is preposterous. If the Nazis succeeded, they had already committed to the Palestinian Haj Amin that they would wipe out every Jew settled there.

My understanding is that the Zionists only dealt with the Nazis to the extent they could save lives, as saving life is a sacred principle both religiously and culturally to Jews. And though many of these efforts were unsuccessful, towards the end of the war some thousands of lives were probably saved by their intervention.

And I still insist that pointing out Haj Amin's role in the Holocaust and Syria's role in harboring mass-murderers of Jews is relevant.

It is also not a diversion from the issue to say that well before the Holocaust, in 1921 and 1929, before the massive pre-Holocaust wave of immigration that resulted from Hitler's rise to power, Palestinians rioted violently and often mercilessly against the Jews, even though it is a fact that Jews had a continual presence in the region.
by Mansoor
Friday Apr 19th, 2002 1:39 PM
Regarding Gen. Musharraf being in power without election: Previous governments of Nawaz Sharif and Benazir Bhutto, who were elected officials were several times more corrupt than Musharraf (and have done immense damage to to already poor struggling country) if he is corrupt at all. The infrastructure for US/Western style democracy to work does not exist in Pakistan. I agree that our tax dollars should not go for any support for any foreign potentates at all. It's about time these countries learn to earn their own living.
by Gabriel
Friday Apr 19th, 2002 5:44 PM
Israel says thay want peace. They say they want the Palestinians to have a state that includes Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem. They say they are doing all they can while the Palestinians do nothing. The fact is they are not being very honest. Everybody wants peace, but at what terms is the real question?

They keep colonizing (settling, they call it) the West Bank and Gaza with arms and military support while they talk about gving it up. The truth is they don't want any true autonomy for the Palestinians because that would mean they would not be able to take any more land from them. The offer at Camp David was a sham. They offered little under many conditions favoring Israel including posts all over the place and full military control as they see fit. They wanted a puppet state. Of course the Palestinians would deny such a cheap deal. In the same way Britain had offered the early Zionists land in Africa and they refused and pushed for Palestine as their future home.

Everyone villifies their enemies. America does it to the Muslims. Jews do it to the Arabs. Arabs do it to the Jews. Nothing new here. Israel is not innocent here and neither are the Palestinians. But it is hard not to when the majority of Israelis and Jews support the massacres and state terrorism by Israel on their people. It is like no villifying the WWII Germans that supported the Nazis during the Holocaust. There is no question as to who has the military, financial and political supremacy here and who is doing the colonizing and the attacks on the civilian population. The suicide bombings are a sad response to both parties. Young University student girls don't go and become suicide bombers or martyrs for no reason. It is desperation fueled by the hopelessness Israel has put the Palestinians under. But their spirits are unbroken and they sacrifice their lives for their people in an act of defiance and war. If they had tanks and helicopters and missiles and a military they would have no need to do this.

That is why I urge everyone to support the arming of the Palestinians as the only true solution to Israel's oppression. They should have a right to defend themselves and the right to bear arms. They should not be denied that. If Israel has it, it is only fair they do to. And that is why I say once again (as in previous comments above):

by Gabriel
Friday Apr 19th, 2002 5:48 PM
by Nuna
Saturday Apr 20th, 2002 5:36 AM
I was appaled when I saw the Israeli flag hanging as part of a flag collection in the San Jose Main Library while the Palestinian flag was excluded. I contacted the administration but they will not take it down or add the Palestinian flag. At any time since 1948 it would be obvious to anyone that this is a political statement that will upset many people. With this attitude at the foundation of our communities how insensitive are they molding us to be?

Attached is the response from the library

Thank you for your question about the inclusion of the Palestinian flag in
our Ralph Brown Memorial Flag Collection. To give you some history, the
collection was donated in 1990 by the San Jos
by Nuna
Saturday Apr 20th, 2002 6:27 AM
Arthur Donoshaytis (earlier message) claimed Arafat is too old to give blood.
Pleeease educate yourself before blabbering nonsense. There is no upper age limit to donating blood.
by bert
Saturday Apr 20th, 2002 10:51 AM
It's war in Sudan since 40 years. The central (islam) government is fighting against the opposition in the (catholic) south of the country.

When Sudan was a British colony, the British divided the country in 2 parts: the north was islamic, but they baptised the south to catholics and so created '2 sorts of Sudanese people'.
They organised a different administration for the two parts. Foreign businussmen came to the south, but sudanese businessmen (from the north) were not allowed to settle.

After its independence a military government started the islamisation of the entire country in 1956. The south protested and fought for independence. In 1972 this north-south-conflict ended. As one part was not strong enough to oppress the other, they lived together.

But then oil was found in the south of the country. The conflict started again as the elite of the north wanted to exploit the oil for their own profit. The government in the north, led by general Numieri, was supported by the US. And they liked Numieri as they liked Mobutu in Congo. And the IMF was pleased to: privatisation, less money for education or health care etc.
The Sudanese people became very poor. Ther were big riots for food in Khartoum in 1985.
But the US and others western countries supported this (islam) regime: none of them cared about poverty, hunger, death, slavery, nor about religious fundamentalism... It's the oil that is important.

But then the Sudanese government supported Irak and not the US in the war against Irak in 1990-1991.
So the US changed their policy. They now support the rebels in the south to fight against the islam government.

So the war in Sudan is still going on, still many deaths, many refugees, starvation, ...
And the US are taking part, they want 'their' oil.
by WeiBing
Saturday Apr 20th, 2002 1:59 PM
1. The Sudan was poor even when the British were there.
2. The British did not really divide the country. They took a two areas and administrated it as one, based in part on some rivalies and trade offs with the French. The South is primarliy Black while the North is more mid-eastern in appearance. If you ever go to K'toum (and I hope you don't have to. Its pretty nasty) you'll notice you can spot the two groups rather easily.
3. The British did not 'baptise the south as Catholics'. Why would a Protestant country during the nineteenth century spread Catholicism? It makes no sense. In addtion the British were never aggressive in the religion area. They allowed missonaries into their colonies and tried to enforce freedom of religion but except for specific cases such as the Thugs and wife burning in India, by the time they reached Sudan they generally stayed out of religion - even by then in Ireland.

The above are historical facts. Some of yours were wrong.

Regarding your opinions, I can only give mine and respect yours. I think the attention on Sudan is due to their support of exporting terrorism. That is somewhat different from simple support of Iraq. The sad part is that when the Sudan government (a nasty group of military tough guys) got scared and tried to take action against the terrorists within their country, the US,probably through pure incompentence, paid no attention. One result was Clinton's famous and immoral cruise missile attack on the city.

Regarding earlier posts onslavery in Sudan (on other threads I think). Sure, the southern rebels have proably tried to exploit the North's trading in slaves just as some Palestinians may be exploiting Isreal's incursions (by exploiting I mean making some 'sound bite events'. etc) . But the inescapable fact is that slavery does exist in Africa as, I imagine, attrocities have taken place on the West Bank. Sadly (and merely to point out a fact, not to damn a religion) this slavely is concentrated in the North where Islamic slavers take Christians or animists from the south. While not approaching the numbers of earlier centuries it does exist and should not be dismissed so glibly with a couple of quotes as some earlier writer tried to do.
by lostguy
Saturday Apr 20th, 2002 4:18 PM
The sloganeering present here demonstrates the real motivation for the fury against Israel. People are so prejudiced against Jews that they happily leap at any opportunity to campaign against their right to exist.

Learn the history of Transjordan, Palestine, and Israel, learn about the treatment and rights of Arabs in countries other than Israel, learn about US grants and loans to other countries in the region, and learn about the propaganda and violent incursion perpetrated by the moslem theocracies around Israel.

Then come post here with your anti-Jew rhetoric.
by Javani Singh
Saturday Apr 20th, 2002 6:18 PM
What do Edward Said and Robert fisk say about Arafat?

“Why don’t we admit that he can neither lead, nor plan, nor take a single step that makes any difference except to him and his Oslo cronies who have benefitted materially from their people’s misery” Edward Said, New Left Review.

Robert Fisk:

Fisk INterview

Ques: So does Arafat now, for his own cynical reasons, encourage or support the suicide bombings inside Israel as the Israelis insist he does?

Answer: Arafat is a very immoral person, or maybe very amoral. A very cynical man. I remember when the Tal-al-Zaatar refugee camp in Beirut had to surrender to Christian forces in the very brutal Lebanese civil war. They were given permission to surrender with a cease-fire. But at the last moment, Arafat told his men to open fire on the Christian forces who were coming to accept the surrender. I think Arafat wanted more Palestinian "martyrs" in order to publicize the Palestinian position in the war. That was in 1976. Believe me that Arafat is not a changed man.

I think that if he ever actually sees a wounded child, he feels compassion like any other human being. But he's also a very cynical politician. And he knows that Sharon was elected to offer security to the Israelis. And Arafat knows that every suicide bombing, every killing, every death of a young Israeli, especially inside Israel, is proof that Sharon's promises are discredited.

On the one hand, he can condemn violence. He can be full of contrition. And in the basic human sense, he probably means it. But he also knows very well that every suicide bombing hits at the Sharon policy, and realizes how that helps him.

by John
Saturday Apr 20th, 2002 6:36 PM
Ok, the original idea for a "corporate american" flag is from adbusters, but i like what you did with it.....but...why playboy (in yours and adbusters( whats wrong with playboy...sexual liberation and the rejection of monotonous relationships/marriage/etc is supposted to be left-wing, not corporate???
by trowup
Sunday Apr 21st, 2002 6:52 AM
90 % of the Palestinians are antisemitic asses!!!!
by Gabriel
Sunday Apr 21st, 2002 7:23 AM
99% of Jews are anti-Arab pieces of shit!
Sunday Apr 21st, 2002 6:56 PM


by Solomon
Monday Apr 22nd, 2002 9:24 AM
It used to be independent websites were about discussing political issues with an inclination to the Left. What are all these Jews trying to spew their arrogance and lame old arguments in favor of Israel doing here? Don't they have enough with ALL the corporate mainstream media on their side? Now they have to come here and tell their lies again. Wake up! We've herad all this before. That's why we come to independent media like this so we can escape your right-wing, corporate, pro-Israeli propaganda!!!

Get out of here!!!!!
by dido
Monday Apr 22nd, 2002 2:50 PM
Dr. Israel Shahak
By Richard H. Curtiss
June 1989, Page 19

"There is nothing that frightens Israeli society so much as Palestinian moderation. Yossi Sarel has said that the reason Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 was because the PLO held its fire for 11 months."

—Dr. Israel Shahak, 1989

For persons knowledgeable about the state of Israel, a conversation with Dr. Israel Shahak, who in June will be making his second visit of 1989 to lecture in the United States, can be extremely informative. But for those unfamiliar with the current state of the Zionist state, Dr. Shahak's candid observations about his troubled and troubling country can be shocking, irritating, and profoundly disturbing.

This Warsaw-born concentration camp survivor, who until this year was a professor of chemistry at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, has lived in Israel since its creation in 1948. His broad powers of observation are matched only by his ability to convey, in vivid, carefully crafted phrases and anecdotes, arresting and unforgettable pictures of the Israel society in which he lives. His monthly "Translations from the Hebrew Press," painstakingly selected to convey the essence of issues that now perplex a deeply polarized Israeli public, provide the most illuminating reading on contemporary Israel available to non-Hebrew speakers.

In preparing these insights, and presenting them on lecture tours in Europe and the United States, Shahak violates a basic canon of the Jewish diaspora: Don't discuss Jewish problems outside the Jewish community.

This does not deter Shahak, a self-motivated, human rights-obsessed 56-year-old academic turned prophet. He acknowledges no contradictions among his obligations as a loyal citizen of Israel, a good Jew, and a believer in universal human values. He brushes aside suggestions that Israeli authorities may someday devise a way to muzzle his candor.

"Israel is still a democracy for Jews," he explains impatiently The problem is that the civil liberties Israel so zealously protects for its Jewish citizens are not transferable to others. In seeking to change that, Israel Shahak has no doubt that he is serving the best interests of Israel, and that his way offers Israel's best hope to assume its self-appointed role as "a light unto the nations."

Shahak's parents were Polish middle-class, orthodox Jews who became Zionists and forbade their sons from speaking Yiddish. He lived in the Warsaw ghetto from 1940 until the Jewish uprising against the Nazi occupiers in the spring of 1943. Then he was transported with his parents to the Poniatowo concentration camp. His mother escaped with her son just long enough to bribe their way onto a register for Jewish citizens of foreign countries. When they were re-arrested, they were sent to a compound for foreign nationals in the Bergen-Belsen extermination camp. Although not subject to the "selection" procedures which led to the gas chambers, Shahak watched heaps of naked corpses being dragged daily to the crematorium.

He was near death from starvation when he and his mother were liberated by American troops in April 1945. His father had died in the camps. His elder brother, who had joined the Royal Air Force, had been killed in the Pacific. Israel Shahak was 15 when he traveled with his mother to Israel in 1948.

He was 23 when, during Israel's 1956 war with Egypt, he was shocked to hear his erstwhile hero, Prime Minister David Ben Gurion, say Israel had undertaken the campaign (which aimed to draw in Jordan as well) not for "defensive purposes but to establish part of the Kingdom of David and Solomon * , '

By the early 1960s, he had become critical of Zionism "for both Jewish and general human reasons. " After Israel seized the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Shahak began publicly criticizing "the suffering that was being inflicted on the Palestinians." He explains:

"After 1967, when I ceased being just a scientist and became a political being, my first reason was that after 1967 the Israeli aim was to dominate is the Middle East, which every rational human being knows i impossible. My second reason was that there must be a Palestinian state. It can come into being with a minimum of bloodshed, or a maximum of bloodshed. Even if the intifada were defeated, it would only cause a delay.

Shahak joined the radical opposition and, in 1970, he was elected chairman of the Human and Civil Rights League, formed by Jews and Arabs in 1937 to support a prisoners' hunger strike against the British colonial administration.

'The platform of my election was that you have to oppose torture, and that whatever you say inside Israel you must say outside," Shahak explains. When he is accused, just as are American Jewish critics of Israel, of being a "selfhating Jew," he responds with first-hand knowledge.

"That is a Nazi expression. The Nazis called Germans who defended Jewish rights self-hating Germans."

Shahak peppers his lectures with such illuminating observations as these:

-Israel's ideological division is made on internal Jewish affairs. The question of opening of Israeli cinemas on Fridays is more important than the killing of Palestinian children.

-Israelis must choose whether to adopt Khomeinism or imitate the West. Half of society believes very strongly that the land of Israel belongs to the Jewish people. Half the people don't believe this and want to imitate the United States. This is not for the sake of the Palestinians, but because the other way will give too much power to the rabbis.

-Israel is in the midst of its worst economic crisis. The kibbutzim alone now owe $3 billion from bad management and from playing the stock market very badly. Such speculation was not only against all of their socialistic principles, but they went bankrupt in the process. The weight of the crisis has fallen upon institutions connected with the Labor Party. This is the chief reason Labor has remained in the government. The Labor Party sold itself to Likud for money. For its part, Likud needs Labor to obtain money from the US.

-By doing this, Labor has betrayed its own supporters and its own peace policy The Labor Party has collapsed morally and intellectually. It is a dead body that just takes up space. People are voting Labor only from hatred and fear of Likud. The poor vote Likud or the religious parties. Even the majority of the workers in the Histradrut factories vote for Likud.

-To get the money it needs from the United States, Israel can go in one of two ways. It can move toward peace, which it has rejected. Or it can use blackmail. The present government will begin to threaten moderate Arab states. The first state will be Jordan. Israel will say "Jordan is the real Palestine" and tell the US "we will stop only if you give us money."

-Alienation between Israeli society and American Jews has never been greater. The feeling among Israeli Jews that they have to go it alone is especially great. American Jews are not going to have any influence on Israel except for those who support right-wing fanatics like Meyer Kahane, who draws most of his backing from the United States. Israelis will not be upset about anything that upsets American Jews.

-What will trigger expulsion is a cold-blooded decision by the Israeli government. No excuse is needed but if one is sought it will be provided by the Israeli death squads and settler underground ... We will hear that troublemakers are being expelled to "establish quiet." We will hear that we are not expelling Palestinians because "Jordan is Palestine. We are only transferring them. " Every Palestinian will be obliged to sign a declaration that he is moving of his own free will.

As Israeli society has become increasingly polarized, many of Israel Shahak's formercritics now agree that Israel cannot remain a Jewish state, a democracy, and an occupying power. The dispute now is over which two of the three incompatible elements Israel should retain.

Characteristically, Shahak, who realized all this 20 years ago, is presently concerned with reaching what he considers the inevitable two-state solution.

"What is the future for Israeli-Palestinian contact?" he asks rhetorically. "The long way is through change in Israeli society. The quick way is pressure by America, which provides $5 billion a year to Israel."

Richard H. Curtiss is chief editor of the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs.
by Stop Jew Bashing
Monday Apr 22nd, 2002 8:01 PM
Arafat began his reign of terror with the Palestine Liberation Organization before one Israeli ever stepped foot into the West Bank or Gaza Strip.

Theodor Herzl wrote that Zionism's twin goals were to allow the Jewish people to "live at last as free men on our own soil, and in our homes peacefully die." And Zionism has achieved the first: a democratic, modern, liberal society, curious, scientific, on the cutting edge of medicine, accountable, transparent, and extremely plural. (Whatever hardships Arab citizens of Israel endure, they are mostly attributable to the unremitting enmity to Israel of their cousins in the neighborhood; and they are, still, the freest Arabs in the region.) Still, the second goal remains elusive. The Jews of Israel still cannot be sure that they will be allowed to die peacefully in their homes. In fact, the angel of death has intruded on their ordinary civilian lives for more than one century now.The killings of Jews by Palestinians predated the establishment of the state of Israel.

The killings of Jews by Palestinians -- and, earlier, by Arabs who didn't yet consider themselves Palestinians -- predated the establishment of the state of Israel. The killers did not differentiate among their targets. They just had to be Jews, random Jews, any Jews: socialist farmers on some remote kibbutz in the Galilee, working people in Haifa, or ultrapious (and, for that matter, often anti-Zionist) men and women from a town like Hebron where Jews had lived innocuously and continuously since several centuries before Mohammed set foot on this earth.

Nor, for that matter, is the specific phenomenon of suicidal murder altogether an innovation of contemporary Arab and Muslim fanatics. This has been a hot subject in historic Islam for centuries, and it remains so in the mosques and schools of higher Muslim learning today, pro and con. The widespread adulation of Al Qaeda and the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, of Osama bin Laden and Yasir Arafat, of Mohammed Atta and the young man on his way to paradise because he perpetrated mass murder in Tel Aviv, is evidence of the deep roots that this practice has in the culture of the Arab and Muslim world. And let us name the phenomenon honestly. When pampered Saudi princes praise the "martyrs of Palestine," and when Arafat himself says (more than a bit insincerely) that he wishes to die a shahid, they are (as Shimon Peres has pointed out) countenancing the idea of human sacrifice as an active agent of modern politics.What Arafat wanted then was to liberate not Hebron or Nablus or Gaza but Haifa and Tel Aviv, the plains of Sharon, and the Negev desert.

Yasir Arafat, of course, has never been finicky about terrorism, and his long history on that score mocks America's calls for him to renounce the only craft he has ever truly known. Arafat's debut on the world stage coincides with the beginning of the Palestinian revolution, which, it is urgent to recall, commenced at least three years before the Six Day War. This means that Arafat started the Palestine Liberation Organization before one Israeli ever stepped foot into the West Bank or Gaza Strip -- or, for that matter, prayed at the Western Wall in Jerusalem or walked in the city's ancient Jewish Quarter. There were no "occupied territories" back then, and there weren't really any disputed territories either -- except in the heads of the Palestinians. What Arafat wanted then (and what I believe he still wants now) was to liberate not Hebron or Nablus or Gaza (which in 1967 were in Arab hands) but Haifa and Tel Aviv, the plains of Sharon, and the Negev desert. Or, as military historian Victor Davis Hanson put it in The Wall Street Journal, "the current Arab-Israeli war -- at least the fourth fought since 1948 -- is fought over the West Bank: but that is only because... the Arab world lost the first three wars to destroy Israel proper."

From the beginning, Arafat's tactics of terror were audacious: blowing up airplanes in midair; taking children hostage in schoolhouses; skyjackings; hijacking of buses; shootouts and bombings in crowded airports, theaters, terminals, markets, beaches, restaurants, wedding halls. His most daring moment was during the 1972 Munich Olympics, in which eleven Israeli athletes lost their lives. (It was also the first moment when Peter Jennings showed himself to be oh, so understanding of Palestinian terror.) But this terrorism occurred only sporadically. It wasn't until the Oslo agreements and the handshake on the White House lawn that Arafat's terrorism became a routine feature of life in Israel. Israel obliged itself in 1993 to provide the Palestinian Authority weapons (augmented, of course, by the armaments the Palestinians smuggled and illegally manufactured themselves). And those weapons became the instruments of Jewish death. The closer the Israelis came to meeting Palestinian demands, the more intense the terror became. Suicide bombing, in fact, didn't become the Palestinians' chosen mode of day in, day out terror until the year 2000, when Israel offered Arafat more than the old butcher probably ever expected.

Even my friend Tom Friedman, generally much too credulous about Arafat's intentions, recently wrote that the Palestinian president and his compatriots "have not chosen suicide bombing out of `desperation.'" The Palestinians, he says, were offered "a peace plan that could have ended their 'desperate' occupation, and Yasir Arafat walked away." He goes on to say that the Palestinians "want to win their independence in blood and fire," and that is because "all they can agree on is what they want to destroy not what they want to build.... Let's be very clear: Palestinians have adopted suicide bombing as a strategic choice.... This threatens all civilization because if suicide bombing is allowed to work in Israel, then, like hijacking and airplane bombing, it will be copied and will eventually lead to a bomber strapped with a nuclear device threatening entire nations."

If Friedman is right -- and I believe he is -- then the solicitude for Arafat expressed by so many world leaders is itself perilous. Prince Sultan, the Saudi defense minister, called the siege of Ramallah "the greatest crime in the history of humanity." Is he out of his head? The Lebanese president's bleatings on Arafat's behalf are more than a little hypocritical given his decision to prevent Arafat's speech from Ramallah from being heard live at the Beirut summit. As for the threat by Jordan's foreign minister, Marwan Muasher, to send the Israeli ambassador back to Jerusalem, he is playing an old, and silly, game. The Hashemites know all too well that Israeli intelligence is their first line of defense against their menacing Arab neighbors and that the Israeli military is their second. That has been clear since at least 1970, when the Israelis turned back Syrian tank divisions heading toward Amman. Israel guarantees Jordan's survival. The king and his Cabinet can express their "deep anger" at Israel's treatment of Arafat; but, in truth, he is a threat to them as well, and as such they wish him nothing but ill. King Abdullah and his advisers surely don't want Israel to give Arafat all the territories captured from them in 1967, and they were desolated when it seemed that Ehud Barak would do just that. They want the Jordan Valley in Jewish hands -- as a buffer between emergent Palestine and their own country and also to prevent chaos among the West Bank Palestinians from spreading to the Palestinians in their own kingdom.

Arafat's most sincere partisans are not in the Arab world; they are in the nations of Europe, whose leaders routinely threaten Israel with retribution when it seeks to defend itself. Some of this is domestic politics: European leaders must now cater to ever larger, and more militant, Arab and Muslim populations within their own borders (a fact that should give pause to Americans who wish to indiscriminately admit immigrants who would bring their old hatreds to their new home). In the diplomatic strutting of European states that once deployed real force around the world but now no longer can, there is probably also some nostalgia for empire. Who really cares, after all, what Belgium thinks about Israel's conflict with the Arabs? The European states and, for that matter, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan are structurally incapable of truly influencing events on the ground in Israel, the disputed territories, or the rest of the Arab world. They cannot produce a real concession from Israel because they cannot produce -- and haven't -- even a symbolic concession from the Palestinians. And, for all their patronage and nurturing of Arafat, he has never given them even a diplomatic crumb to take to Israel.

The European country that has hectored Israel the longest and most obsessively, of course, is France. And why should we be surprised? After all, President Jacques Chirac and Prime Minister Lionel Jospin's attacks on the Jewish state have accompanied a frightening intensification of anti-Semitism in France.Arafat has no grand vision of human affairs whatsoever, no desire other than territory to serve as a launching pad for war against the Jews.

Then there is the left -- like the people who went to be with Arafat inside his compound this month. These "progressives" are not a new phenomenon in world affairs: They and their ancestors have been worshiping bloodthirsty leaders for more than half a century. But with Stalin, Mao, and Castro, there was, for a time, at least a veneer of brutal idealism. Zionism was an expression of European liberalism, and there were Arab intellectuals who imagined that their nationalism also would be nurtured by that source. But, in practice, Arab nationalism has become a very nasty business, defined everywhere by dictatorship. Palestinian nationalism is no different. Arafat has no grand vision of human affairs whatsoever, no desire other than territory -- and territory not as the seedbed for an inspired vision of community but as a launching pad for war against the Jews.

Arafat could not possibly have stirred these activists' dreams of a just society, because he has none. His scant program contains not even the deceit of egalitarianism. Arafat is a fascist, and his fascism has at its very core the hatred of Jews. And since he is unabashedly stirred by this passion, one has to suspect his admirers as well, all of them (including -- if I am permitted to go local -- the three Episcopal bishops of Massachusetts and their political adviser, a priest in a Cambridge church, who in their preaching and protests seem to think that innocent Jewish life is without value). In France, already, synagogues are being burned and cemeteries trashed. And in Israel, amidst a rage of daily terror, a young Palestinian came to the seder door and murdered 28 men and women, one pregnant with two children in her belly, never to see the light of day.
by Sick of all this BS
Saturday Apr 27th, 2002 4:20 PM
Give the Palestinians access to nuclear weapons to
"level the playing field" with Israel, and let them sort it
out, once and for all. Let the cards fall where they may!
by deb
Saturday Apr 27th, 2002 4:34 PM
palestinians arab an jews in a zionist_pigs free palestine.
by sf guy
Saturday Apr 27th, 2002 7:52 PM
Hatred of Jews - an integral part of Palestinian ideology

The following two items, the first from a televised religious sermon and the second from a Palestinian daily, are examples of the anti-Semitism common in Palestinian broadcasts and texts.

1. "...The Jews tried to kill Muhammad many times, with poison and with magic, and by throwing stones at him, and by all types of assassinations. He warned us about the Jews, and about the cunning of the Jews...He told us about the character of the Jew, in the book of Allah and in the Traditions of the Prophet, so that we would beware of them at every moment. And we know how to deal with the Jews.
...Say to those who believe not!the Jews!say to those who believe not, act according to your power, for we too are acting! And wait! For we too, shall wait.' Wait for your graves! Wait for the final battle! ...
.O Jews!.We will act to restore our rights! .You are usurpers! Your arrogance will end one of these days! .
. '[The Jew's] aim everywhere is to spread mischief through the earth and destroy crops and cattle. Allah does not love such mischief.'
[The Jews] destroyed everything: the crops, the seeds, and the birds, to the point that the environment itself is oppressed by the Jew! .
Allah, deal harshly with the Jews and those who aid them.
Allah, destroy them through their own stratagems!.
Allah, render us victorious over the Jews and those who support them!."
[PA TV, Sermon televised from protest tent in Gaza, Feb. 8, 2002]

2. A cartoon depicts the stereotypical Jew in Hasidic garb controlling world media by painting over TV screens with black paint. The text above the Jew: "The Al Aksa Intifada." The text over the TV screens, the "eyes" of the Western world: "Western Media."
by Spider Jerusalem
Monday Apr 29th, 2002 3:31 PM
Gypsies in Kosovo, Jews in Jordan, Arabs in israel, Native Americans in America, blacks in the American deep south, whites in the American inner cities, Koreans under Japanese occupation..

Ethnic cleansing is a global constant. Everywhere you go, MOST HUMAN BEINGS are either overtly or covertly racist.

It's all wrong, but selectively condemning some cases while ignoring others is why you can't win converts to your cause. No one is ever swayed by partisan politics.

by Indy
Monday Dec 2nd, 2002 4:36 PM
"There should have been a riot."
No matter what the situation, "There should have been a riot" is the absolute wrong response.
Wonder why people consider so many of the folks here freaks and losers?
The anarchy-reflex has NEVER made ANYTHING better, and by urging a riot, you show yourself to be just as (if not more) base and brutal than those you would oppose.

"There should have been a riot."
What would Ghandi or MLK have said to THAT?
Well, I say "You're a friggin' moron!"
by 21st cen nazi
Monday Dec 2nd, 2002 7:10 PM
by food
Tuesday Dec 3rd, 2002 11:04 AM
Italian. Chinese. Spanish. German. Mexican. ANYTHING but left-overs from Thanksgiving. Turkey sandwiches, turkey this, turkey that. I'm sick of turkey! I'll gladly celebrate ethnic cleaning, as long as it doesn't involve turkey.
by anti-semites?
Tuesday Feb 11th, 2003 9:56 PM
Be careful when using the term "anti-semite" that you know who the semites are.

Most Israelis are not of this lineage.

As far as the religious groups go, BOTH Jews and Moslems are semites. Anything anti-moslem is as anti-semetic as something anti-jewish.
by ........
Tuesday Feb 11th, 2003 10:52 PM
Both sides insults jews/israel

Right Wing jerks single out Jews for hatred and vitriol, demonize Jews, exaggerate Jewish faults, impute crimes of certain Jews to all Jews, concoct Jewish conspiracies to explain whats wrong with society, blame Jews for corrupting the world, claim the influence of the Jewish media is why more people don't agree with them.

Left Wing jerks single out the Jewish State for hatred and vitriol, demonize the Jewish State, exaggerate the Jewish State's faults, impute crimes of certain Israelis to all Israelis, concoct Zionist conspiracies to explain whats wrong with society, blame the Jewish State for corrupting the world, claim the influence of the Zionist media is why more people don't agree with them.

Jews, and/or Israel, will always face exaggerations, lies and scapegoating from both sides. I wish there was another planet to live on.


Palestinians have cared more about destroying Israel than about setting up their own neighbor state. That's the main problem over the last 50 years.

Palestinian leadership and main terrorist organizations made it clear for a long, long time now that they oppose Israel existing. But it isn't good publicity to announce that to the media, so they stopped saying it. And you want to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Well, hamas still say it, but you want to pretend they don't. Hamas publically states they consider all of israel/palestinian to be occupied. They're fighting the existence of israel. that's why they and the egyptian govt couldn't agree to anything 2 weeks ago when they met.

The average palestinian may just want the "occupation" to end (and they are against israel existing, obviously), but hamas and many main terrorist groups still openly admit that THE ENTIRE AREA is "occupied," and the way to end that is to kill the jews there.

That's the main problem. Despite what your ignorant, uneducated, misguided friends and favorite writers may state.


Palestinians could have had a state already, but they preferred trying to destroy Israel and fulfill their dreams of one large Jew-less state.

I guess palestinian "leadership" should have formed a state in 1948, or 1949, or 1950, or 1951, or 1952, or 1953, or 1954, or 1955, or 1956, or 1957, or 1958, or 1959, or 1960, or 1961, or 1962, or 1963, or 1964, or 1965, or 1966, instead of just waging war on Israel all that time when Israel was NOT preventing them from forming a state, EH?

And I guess palestinian "leadership" should not have spent 1967 to the early 1990's trying to destroy israel, EH?

And I guess from the 1990's on, when arafat FINALLY agreed that isarel has the right to exist and pretended that he doesn't want israel destroyed anymore, Palestinians should have stopped terrorist attacks against isarel and accepted one of the peace offers, instead of waging intifadas, and then attacks, and now another intifada, EH?

But sure, blame israel for every problem, single them out for everthing. That makes no sense at all, but don't let that stop you.


Why do you loons yell that Israel needs to perfect itself, but you're ok with Israel's neighbors continuing to be horrible?

In 20th century Europe, people told the Jews to, "Get out and go to Palestine!"

Today, many people tell the Jews to, "Get out of Palestine and go to Elsewhere!"

For 1,500 years Jews lived as dogs in the middle east. Jews finally rise up and form their own SMALL little state, and their neighbors respond by kicking the Jews out of their countries (blaming all Jews even if they had nothing to do with anything) and trying to kill Israel.

Stop unfairly singling zionists out. Zionism was to make a safe home for Jews when they VERY BADLY needed one. Israel's goal is to exist. Stop singling Jews out for trying to make sure they can still exist. You nutcases out there who criticize Israel should go try living with the enemy of Israel - hamas, hezzbollah, islamic jihad and all the other nutcases.

Is there any reason you single Israel out for giving special treatment to Jews, but you don't single Palestine out for not allowing any Jews at all? And you don't single Iraq out for what they did to their Jewish
population? And Syria, and Lebanon, and Iraq? Is there a reason why you are ok with discrimination against Jews that has taken place in almost every
middle east country, but you are not ok with Israel giving special treatement to Jews?

Why do you single Jews out for trying to their little state, but you don't apply equal criticism to states that have been MUCH worse in their fairness?

Don't pretend that it's not about "jews" and only about "zionists." You are singling zionists out for not being perfect while trying to protect their own people, while you do not place equal attention on other people who do much worse stuff. WHy not just admit that you have agendas beyond what you claim?

Stop lying about zionism. Focus on people who are really doing bad things, not "the Jews," not "the zionists," not any one entire group of people.

Had the Palestinians cared more about their own state than about killing Israel, a state of Palestine woudl have existed already. Don't blame Israel beacuse Palestinian leadership for decades cared more about destroying Israel than focusing on their own people. There was nothing stopping arabs from making Palestine a state from 1948 to 1967, except arabs just kept trying to kill Israel. Had they left Israel alone, they'd have had yet another arab state.

When moderate Palestians have suffered all this time, it's because their leaders have been extremists who focused on destruction rather than being a neighbor.


Why do so many of you want to lie about zionism and paint it negatively? Jews got crapped on in much of the world for a very long time, and zionism was a response, to establish a safe place. It wasn't about attacking anyone, it was about defense, and safety, and a home in a land that didn't treat Jews like pets (or cockroaches).

Those of you who focus a huge amount of attention on attacking zionism are either misinformed, or more likely informed but hiding hidden agendas. Zionism is not racist, it favors Jews who are white, black and in-between. THere is no "ethnic cleansing" since the majority of Jewish semitic people and Muslim semitic people are of the same race. Also, Israeli citizens of all races and religions are still citizens, no one group is being rounded up and deported or attacked. Israel's main fight is with people who live outside of Israel and are not Israeli citizens.

Those of you who single zionism out as something bad are misguided, or with agenda. The #1 reason zionism was formed and exists was/is as a response to what Jews were put through in much of the world for the last 2000 years. It's about a safe haven.

Currently, almost 20% of Israel's citizens are not Jewish. Hundreds of thousands of Muslim Israelis work, vote and live pretty regular lives in Israel.

Palestinians kicked every Jew out of Palestinian land.

Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Palestine and almost every arab country destroyed their Jewish communities and forced Jews to flee elsewhere. Israel took the refugees in.

Yet arab countries refused to take in Palestinian refugees.

You anti-zionist loons ignore all this, you ignore balanced reality, you single Israel out for not being a better democracy than it is, yet you intentionally ignore what most arab nations did to their jews. It's ok with you that almost every Jew suffered even if they had nothing to do with Israel or anything?

You spend a huge amount of time exaggerating or lying about zionism, acting like it's a bad thing, while intentionally ignoring really bad things that don't suit your agenda.

Many arab countries blamed any Jews living there for what Jews in Israel were allegedly doing wrong. Yet you don't care. It doesn't suit your agenda. You just want to rant about what Jews do wrong, only you pretend it's all about "zionism" and politics, and hide behind a "politically correct" lie. Why not just admit it, you want to single Jewish Israelis out for what they allegedly do "wrong," while you want to forgive or ignore what was actually done to Jews in that part of the world that plays a huge role on how Israel responds to stuff.

Try being balanced. Probably hard, I guess, when you are fueled by obsessive-compulsive, dishonest and unhealthy hatred of zionists/Israel, eh?

Zionism isn't "bad." It was about giving Jews a safe home. You may disagree with how the current Israeli government is handling things, but the lies about zionism and Israel and the dishonest and unfair singling-out of Jews and zionists needs to stop.

by and
Tuesday Feb 11th, 2003 10:56 PM
Arabs are not being "ethnically cleansed" in Israel. Israeli citizens who are arab aren't being hurt. Israel's problem is with Arabs who live nextdoor to Israel whose leaders and most popular organizations spent 40 years refusing to agree to stop attacking israel.

Palestinians were on a positive road 2.5 years ago, I guess starting "Intifada 2" when it wasn't the least bit necessary wasn't too smart. But gee, forgive them and just blame Israel, because that's the ignorant thing to do.
by you are SO clueless
Tuesday Feb 11th, 2003 11:56 PM
Only two sides? As if.
by Somebody hasn't read up on
Wednesday Feb 12th, 2003 12:22 AM
"Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict" written by the Jews for Justice in the Middle East yet. It's at Sorry if the truth hurts. But the truth will set you free.
by hahah
Wednesday Feb 12th, 2003 1:11 AM
A Jewish person (allegedly) making that website does not necessarily mean that it contains accurate information. I don't know if you've heard, but there are Jews who are accurate, and Jews who are not. THere are also Christians who are accurate, and CHristians who are not. Same with muslims, and athiests, and left-handed circus midgets, etc.
by hahah
Wednesday Feb 12th, 2003 1:22 AM
It takes ages to load. can you post your anti-zionist propeganda on another shorter thread. Would it be possible to check if during THE LAST 2 YEARS (or 10 years, or 20 years) there was any evidance for ethic cleansing or the whole case against israel is based on stories from 55 years ago ?

by C.Campbell
Wednesday Feb 12th, 2003 5:07 PM
I think everyone on this thread needs to view the documentary, "Promises" It could probably change your perspective on the whole issue. Its also one of the best docs ever done.
by x
Wednesday Feb 12th, 2003 9:01 PM
"Flying the Israeli flag has nothing to do with being Jewish and opposing antisemitism and has everything to do with making Palestinians in the US feel unwelcome. For a Palestinian, seeing an Israeli flag on a US campus is a hate crime every bit as painful as it would be for a Jewish student to be forced to see others rallying with Nazi flags."
.... In this case, so as not to have a double standard, flags from islamic countries must be banned from all public areas. THey are a symbol of oppression of everyone who is not 1) male 2) muslim 3) hetrosexual.
4) a lover of facism. Seeing these symbols of hatred remind those victumized- whether enslaved in Sudan, those killed on 9//11, Bali, women mutilated, women murdered for having deformed hymens, muslims killed for being found in posession of a bible... the list is endless and has changed the meaning of the islamic symbol in the same way the swastika was once an inocent symbol but grew corrupt with how it was used. Unfortuntaely the strong armed muslim lobbiest cry when they are held to the same standards as everyone else so we keep having to baby them in hopes that by treating them with kid gloves they will stop acting like fanatics. fat chance.
by JA
Wednesday Feb 12th, 2003 9:49 PM

"Zionism is nothing more than the belief that Jews as a people have the right to self-determination in their homeland, Israel." That's the PUBLIC RELATIONS DEFINITION of Zionism. Here are but a FEW racist Zionist quotes by Zionist founding pioneers.

All one has to do is to go read the statements of the Zionist pioneers about Palestine--they blatantly believed that they had a racially superior right to the land and their statements were definitely racist.

Here are but a FEW!!!:

Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25,1982:

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."

David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff.
From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978:

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."

Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency's Colonization Department.
From Israel: an Apartheid State by Uri Davis, p.5:

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them."

Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine, "Complete Diaries," June 12, 1895 entry.:

"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, head of the Kever Yossev Yeshiva (school of Talmud) in Nablus stated:

"The blood of the Jewish people is loved by the Lord; it is therefore redder and their life is preferable."

Yitzhak Ginsburg, "Five General Religious Duties Which Lie Behind the Act of the Saintly, Late Rabbi Baruch Goldstein, May his Blood be Avenged":

"The killing by a Jew of a non-Jew, i.e. a Palestinian, is considered essentially a good deed, and Jews should therefore have no compunction about it."

In 1923, radical Zionist Ze'ev Jabotinsky-- spiritual father of not only of Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin but of Brooklyn Rabbi Meir Kahane-- wrote:

the "sole way" for Jews to deal with Arabs in Palestine was through "total avoidance of all attempts to arrive at a settlement"-which Jabotinsky euphemistically termed the "iron wall" approach. Not coincidentally, a picture of Jabotinsky graces Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's desk. Source: The Village Voice, "Death Wish in the Holy Land," Dec. 12, 2001.

The influential Israeli Rabbi Ovadia Yosef exclaimed during a sermon preceding the 2001 Passover holiday:

"May the Holy Name visit retribution on the
Arab heads, and cause their seed to be lost, and annihilate them." He added: "It is forbidden to have pity on them. We must give them missiles with relish, annihilate them. Evil ones, damnable ones." -- Source: Ha'aretz April 12, 2001.

Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969:

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, ‘What is to be done with the Palestinian population?’ Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'"

David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson,
1978, p. 99:

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."

Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, 'Begin and the "Beasts"', New Statesman, 25 June 1982:

"We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return."

Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979. Rabin's description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet:

"We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters."

David Goldman wrote:

"We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours."

Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir's infamous quote:

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian."

Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998:

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."

Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum":

"If I was an Arab leader I would never make [peace] with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country."

And finally:

Michael Ben-Yair, Attorney General of Israel, 1993-1996 (in Ha'aretz):

"The Intifada is the Palestinian's people's war of national liberation. We [Israel] enthusiastically chose to become a colonialist society, ignoring international treaties, expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel to the Occupied Territories, engaging in theft and funding justification for all these activities.. we [Israel] established an apartheid regime."

Ehud Barak, on Israeli TV (date undetermined, but confirmed by former Israeli Knesset Member Marsha Friedman):

"If I were a Palestinian, I would be a terrorist."
(Speaking about Sharon's policies toward the Palestinians.)

Ariel Sharon, Prime Minister of Israel, commenting on the August-September 2001 Durbin Conference Against Racism (said about black South Africans and their criticism of Zionism):

"What can a people who have descended from trees teach us about civilization."

Ariel Sharon, Prime Minister of Israel (date undetermined, in an Israeli cabinet meeting):

Don't worry, we [Israel] control the United States.
(In response to concerns raised by another cabinet member about Sharon's ["the butcher of Beirut"] invasion and brutality in the West Bank.)

Also see:

Zionism Ignores Plight of Palestinian People


Zionist Claim to Israel: Modern-Day Apartheid
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