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lierre keith gets pied at the anarchist bookfair SILENT VIDEO

by peterbower1
here it is
Copy the code below to embed this movie into a web page:
musical soundtrack and looping have been removed from original at
by not true
first, there was nothing "rubbed" into her eyes. as the video makes clear, at most some fell into her left eye from the pie that landed on the top of her head or maybe the second one that came in from the side. the third pie hit her back.

in this post by a guy who called the pieing "barbaric" ( he notes that "over 24 hours" after the pieing she told him that her "eyes are still puffy" - BUT there's no puffiness or even red eyes visible in this picture taken maybe 20 minutes or so after the pieing (

for all of those who are reaching new levels of hyperventilation over this, please remember what real battery actually looks like ( and although many of Keith's fans are pro-police and will probably justify this beating of women demonstrators

as a stark contrast, consider the classy reaction of Medea Benjamin to a pieing versus ultimate victim Lierre Keith:

To Those Who Threw a Pie in My Face, Let’s Swap Recipes
by Medea Benjamin

On the eve of the closing of the first ever US Social Forum in Atlanta, CODEPINK hosted a reception in the Peace and Justice Tent. We raised our glasses in a toast to the historic gathering and the wonderful activists from around the country. We belted out “Ain’t gonna study war no more” and other peace songs in three-part harmony. We laughed raucously as we enjoyed each other’s company. And we closed with a congo line that snaked out of the tent. Suddenly, while basking in the warmth of the camaraderie, I felt someone’s hand smashing into my face. It was so quick I didn’t have time to even close my eyes. With goo dripping down by face and my eyes burning, I realized I had been “pied.” I invite you to see the photos and video that my attackers posted online. You’ll see how our merrymaking was spoiled by not-so-merry pranksters guilty of a pie-by hit and run.


note that Medea says her eyes burned. almost any liquid in your eyes will at least temporarily because it doesn't match the PH of your eyes. even water will sting as we all know. yet Keith plays up pepper being in the pie (true or not) to make herself out to be a uber-victim. Medea was also pied very directly, having had the pie pushed straight in the face (see the video linked here with the pie-er holding Medea's back), whereas Lierre got pie only on the top and side of her head (see video above). vegan haters everywhere have been acting like pepper was rubbed directly into her face, almost as if it was punched into her face, completely smeared. Lierre has dishonestly ginned this up - it's what she does, for profit, stir up hate against vegetarians. Kieth's was a typical pieing, but she has her worshipers all worked up into a frenzy now. did Medea immediately yell out, "call the police?" did she say, "I don't care about anarchists?" nope. and nope. she took it in stride and even made a funny post about it later, which is just so much different from the humorless vegan-hating Keith.
"the goop they used got inside of her ear and she now has an ear infection"

her followers should remember that she actually said hearing the cheering at the bookfair was worse than the supposed pepper

"My eyes are still puffy and blurry, but the pain is definitely better. I think the worst part was hearing people cheer my assailants while I was being assaulted. I don’t want to live in a world where people cheer while someone has cayenne rubbed into their eyes."

the hyperventilation posse should keep that in mind before they let their heads explode over pepper that may or may not have had contact with her eye

if you have a minute check out Deanosor's two comments at another related thread regarding disability and the responsibility of bookfair organizers ( and
by yeah right
seriously, this is the best you can do, hitting people in the face, on the head, etc., up close and personal and then downplaying every single thing they say about how they feel about the attack. we're supposed to listen to indigenous people, that's fine... i have no problem listening to indigenous people, anything they say that happens to them or how they feel about it is supposed to be valid. same for people speaking for animals in labs, we're supposed to take their words at face value. but when a woman speaks up and says "this sucks and it hurts and you harmed me" you laugh at them.

the only ones who made keith a victim are the people who hit her and the people who are mocking her. she hasn't done anything to make any kind of victim out of herself. she has the spine to stand up and speak up about a twenty-year lifestyle choice that harmed her and all you can do is assault her and laugh at her.

thanks for convincing me to go vegan OR identify as an anarchist. clearly you're a bunch of morally bankrupt, misogynist bullies and as a cisgendered woman i would have no place with you whatsoever. except as bed entertainment maybe, or a punching bag. with her degenerative diseases keith would make a poor bed buddy so i guess you picked her other role for her. way to go.
by The Last Great Pool Party (repost)
Private Business of the Secret Veg*n Society

“Bound Together Books and PM Press continue to try to prop up and foist veg*n antagonist Lierre Keith onto the radical community in the Bay Area. Today, at the 15th Annual San Francisco Anarchist Bookfair, where she was scheduled to be a featured speaker, Keith was served her just desserts for her obnoxious attacks on veg*ns in The Vegetarian Myth. She was pied in the middle of her speech in the main auditorium at the SF County Fair Building in Golden Gate Park.”

Assault is not the way to go, and yet I crack a tiny smile because in addition to being a veggie-hating loon, she’s also a trans-phobic loon affiliated with RadLesFes, which “is ‘unalterably opposed’ to 1) anyone, but specifically lesbians in the context of RadLesFes, who in the slightest endorse BDSM or pornography, and 2) trans people, specifically referring to all trans-related health interventions pejoratively as ‘mutilations’.”

Keith also claims to be an anarchist; when she was pied at the Anarchist Bookfair, though, she called the fucking cops.

Read the rest at IndyBay.

Note: veg*n is blogosphere shorthand for vegan/vegetarian.
by TrueAnarchist
A few masked cowards assaulted a sickly woman who's probably twice their age, because they couldn't come up with a good refutation of the points she was there to make. That's really pathetic.

But there's a few in every crowd; what's more pathetic is all these future-stockbroker, summer squatter trust fund babies sit there and have NO reaction to a woman being assaulted other than to cheer. Not one single person in that audience had the guts or respect for freedom of speech to say or do anything? Those ain't freedom fighters, ain't anarchists, they're just spoiled, self-righteous little prigs, no different from the "godhatesfags" people except with a different cause.
by Observational
If you scroll through the video very slowly, it looks like you can see the highlight of a right breast. Also, that person has a tad heavier upper thighs, or is "hippy-er."

Not that men don't sometimes have those characteristics, or that pie person number 2 and 3 couldn't be really skinny women, just that generally speaking the lead pie person has a more traditional female shape.

Assumptions about the gender of these people should not be taken as a given.
by mc
but what i really want to see is the talk given by the greeks at the BASTARD conference. with audio, preferably.
i thought i saw someone videotaping this. did they?

it was one of the best talks i have ever seen and would love to watch it again.
by Maginn Blue
I was in attendance at Lierre's talk, and witnessing the pie attack by these close minded vegan extremists caused me to lose any interest I previously had for their cause. I currently do not eat meat, however my canine roommates do (please don't pie them!), and whenever possible I cook them stew using grass fed beef and organic veggies from the farmers market. There will always be animals that eat meat, including humans. It is part of nature and cannot be avoided. Animal rights activists should really focus on ending the torture and enslavement of these beings, and this is something Lierre actively supports. There are so many people who openly abuse and torture animals (for example, those who run factory farms or, like NASA, experiment on monkeys) that truly do deserve a peppered pie to the face, that it makes no sense to go after someone who is also working towards ending this unnecessary suffering.
by exveg
1302 and RISING. Nice work vegatards. You succeeded in alienating many potential recruits and many of your allies are now former allies. Thanks to your monumental idiocy and unmitigated arrogance, more and more people are going to read this book. IT'S SELLING BY THE CASE. (I know you "evolved" and "superior" people don't give a rat's ass (oh sorry, I meant "don't give a strand of corn silk") about such an imperialist measure of success, but you have to admit it wilts your collective hard-on just a little.


by calling out BS
pah-lease, you and every other Keith follower here were sent here from your fad lo-carb diet websites just aghast at the rape/beating/crucificion that Keith received in those pies. it's was the worst thing ever in your privileged little perspectives

you were never going vegan in a million years. get real

so it's not a great loss if you lemmings run out and buy a seriously flawed book that validates your ignorant prejudice anyway. dumb people don't seek out challenges for themselves. they seek the comfort of the familiar and whatever society tells them is right and good no matter how wrong it might really be.

you should know that Atkins weighed almost 300 pounds when he died. have fun with your heart attacks, colon cancer, and erectile dysfunction.

by assuming they do actually read books
What will they think when they learn that Keith is a fan of genocide of most of the worlds population at the hands of electrical grid saboteurs?

They'll be like, uh...
by cp
yeah - is there video of the other speakers? Some of us couldn't be multiple places at once that day.

by the Pied Piper
lierre keith gets pied.
Ok, selling out it's deserved. She had it comming

But has any one proved or disproved her statement of the Pepper laced Pies?
putting any kind of stuff like this in a pie takes this to a bad place if the Pie masters are cought.

Now that being said, when are we going to direct this action to a worthey target.
Di-Fi, Nancy Pelosi or how about our old buddy Gavin?

I think that $10 would be a good donation to indy bay,if some one sends a pie to one of the
Political Misfits that ignore the will of the people

(not that I would ever do such a thing) but I would give a C-note to see it!
by Tim Jessop

Bakers Without Borders

I look forward to your next act of social action.
by Adam Cohen (info [at]
Jendi Reiter has it right:

"I have no opinion on the great vegan debate. I simply think that it trashes the credibility of the left-liberal and anarchist movements to allow young men to assault and silence women, and then publish the video as entertainment. If we want to reduce the power of the state, we need to show that we're fit for self-governance, not acting like kindergarten bullies."
by me
I'm embarrassed to even be associated with this scene.

How about the 10 million unemployed? health care? immigration or financial regulation?

You ever wonder why you get older and the "movement" never goes anywhere?
by 000

>>I'm embarrassed to even be associated with this scene.

That's exactly how I felt when I watched the pie-ing go down. I was appalled at the childishness and the lack of an ability to have a discussion. It confirmed all my deepest fears about my 20 year association with anarchist politics, that it was a youth scene and a fashion movement, that the worst thing that ever happened to anarchism was punk rock. That these people couldn't organize themselves out of a paper bag. That they could never really be serious about the politics because they act like little children, selfish little individualistic children.

But it's also true there were good people there. You can't forget that. It's true that a few little bastards managed to redefine this movement for the population as a Benny Hill stunt. They are a joke, no doubt about it.

>>You ever wonder why you get older and the "movement" never goes anywhere?

All the time. I think my experience in Europe gives me a little more hope. The Greeks made it clear in the 90s that your choice of music or dress is irrelevant if you want to join the movement, what matters is your commitment to the community. Sadly, we haven't had that cultural shift. The Bay Area movement is a cesspool of lifestyle and individualism and the "narcissism of small differences".

It's fucked. And this incident made me want to cry, because it left me feeling alone amongst a sea of black fashionistas which at its core is extremely individualistic. There is no accountability and without that, there is no unity.
by loyal Fan
Gavin, Gavin, Gavin, Gavin, Gavin, Gavin, Gavin, Gavin,
Gavin, Gavin, Gavin, Gavin, Gavin, Gavin, Gavin, Gavin,
Gavin, Gavin, Gavin, Gavin, Gavin, Gavin, Gavin, Gavin!
by cry me a river
I can think of 10,000,000 sadder things than Keith getting pied for writing an obnoxious book, but if that's all it takes to just about bring you to tears, well, then, I'm just not sure what to say about that.

sounds like you already had some issues with things and you're piling it all onto this one event, just like Keith is doing

"If this is what is considered radical action," Keith said, "this movement is dead."

sounds like she's a real fighter. one road bump and that's the end of it all. or maybe she's just into melodrama

as for the "sea of black fashionistas," well what were you wearing? let me guess... ALL black!

if you're not feeling it, stop wearing the uniform. add a little green or red or blue into your wardrobe. consider that maybe you'd be more comfortable hanging out with all of the drama kings and queens over at the low-carb diet websites instead of here

whatever you do, dry your eyes and get on with it already. sheesh. you'd think somebody was murdered at the bookfair with all of your fretting over this.
by 000
Yeah, it's fucking sad being in a room full of people that have no common ground for struggle, where single issue politics dominates. It's fucking pathetic. It gives me no hope for changing this sick and murderous system, and certainly not from the Bay Area anarchist scene, which is heavily dominated by white men.

Excuse me for being sad. Excuse me for not sharing your pathetic middle class experiences. And by the way you fucking asshole, I am not a meat eater, in fact have been veg for over 20 years.

Your post is indicative of what I am talking about. No compassion, no empathy and the willingness to excommunicate people who fuck up your happy life. It's why most young anarchists are a fucking joke, because it is a sub-cultural fashion statement for them ( not all of course, but it's dominated by that sentiment in the U.S.)
by thank you very much
yes, I've seen your posts. I'm well aware of you saying you don't eat meat. fine. nothing in my comment had anything to do with if you did or not, although I do believe once you said you were considering giving it up because you hate vegans so much or something loosely to that effect, and you're whining like those low-carb assholes, so I thought you might want to consider bedding down with them. I'm just trying to throw out ideas to stop your pathetic sobbing

hey crybaby, you're the one soooo down on the movement. I'm not the one making this SINGLE EVENT into the end of the world for the struggle/movement/whatever. that's you, sir ("That's exactly how I felt when I watched the pie-ing go down" -- that was you, right??)

it's bizarre really. you use constant broad generalizations to attack whole swaths of people in the movement, oputting assuptions on to them that you have no idea if they actually apply or not (single issue, blah, blah), and then you are taken aback when people object, just like Keith. now you're going to cry again because I didn't take kindly to your dead-ender talk. snap out of it. god. you're almost as big a victim-wallower as keith and you didn't even get hit by a pie

I didn't excommunicate you, you fucking drama queen. that's not within my power (or my desire). you're excommunicating yourself. you said you felt alienated from virtually everyone in the main room at the fair. fine, if that's how you feel, but you said it, not me

I'm just telling you to quit fucking crying about a goddamned pie and get on with it. unless you just prefer victim mode and being ineffective. jeezus, man, no one was murdered. there was no blood, not even a bruise. clearly she was fine like 20 minutes later, and she seems quite happy that her book sales have gone up. yet you wallow and wallow. maybe you just need a break from things for a while, a little walk away from the struggle, until you can regain perspective
by 000
I am curious how old you are, what your skin privilege is (I am sure you are male and white, and probably early 20s). Cuz only a real self-absorbed asshole would say the shit you do.

Getting into this subject came from the person commenting on american anarchists, and how pathetic this whole drama really is. I agree. How fucking immature it is, and how egotistical and pointless white men that dominate this movement are - and you are a perfect example.

>>I'm not the one making this SINGLE EVENT into the end of the world

It's a culmination of events. It's a pattern. It's a continuation of what Bookchin articulated pretty damn well in the 90s after a lifetime dedicated to this movement. It's the same lifestyle vs social anarchism debate, those dedicated to their razor ripped jeans vs those dedicated to a grounded and mass based revolutionary movement. Those capable of only talking to their peers that act and look the same vs. those that reach out beyond their safe zone to "normal" folks, with the goal of radicalizing people for struggle.

>>generalizations to attack whole swaths of people in the movement

No not really, just against white male domination, fascist tactics, and the lack of accountability that exists in subcultures like anarchism.

>>I didn't excommunicate you, you fucking drama queen.

Never said you did. Why are you taking this personally? Who's the drama queen here? Your the one using all this nasty language. I just said i was sad. Guess your privilege keeps you from being sad. BTW, I am not the only one who felt alienated judging by the posts here over the last week.

>>I'm just telling you to quit fucking crying about a goddamned pie and get on with it. unless you just prefer victim mode and being ineffective. jeezus, man, no one was murdered. there was no blood, not even a bruise.

Let me rephrase that for you: "Just get over it cry baby, women get assaulted all the time, i mean they don't get murdered most of the time? I mean the assault was bloodless and no bruises were showing. I mean it's kinda cool to get pepper sprayed cuz you can brag to all your friends about it."

>>she seems quite happy that her book sales have gone up.

I would be too, regardless of how I feel about Keith. As for taking a break, I don't have the luxury as apparently you do.

by uh, well
95 percent of the posters here have been white middle to upper-class low-card diet fadists that don't give a flying fuck about anarchism or revolution. if you're going to through argumentum ad populum at me, at least be honest about who you are citing

I don't need a break because I'm not the one having an identity crisis over a pieing. and if you were aware of similar issues in the 90s why on earth are you so crushed now?

it was a pieing and not the massive gang rape assault you and the Lierre posse make it out to be. I've seen people pepper sprayed. I've been gassed by cops. I've gotten cayenne pepper in my own eyes cooking. and I don't believe there was pepper in the pie. medea benjamin was pied once and she reported a stinging in her eyes, but she didn't call the cops and she didn't say things about it being like someone kicking a cat. medea laughed it off and wrote about trading recipes with the pie-er

and you know that your paraphrase of me is dishonest. that's the same type of straw man shit you keep doing here. you're not even being facetious -- you seem to really mean it even though you know it's a load of crap

again, try to get things in perspective MAN. there was no blood and there were no bruises or broken bones. criminy, do you conflate everything in your world like you're conflating this? I don't know how you make it through the day without being about to distinguish between the severity of different offenses.

apparently it makes you feel better if you can try to put me into a little oversimplistic box rather than just dealing with the things I say here. you have no idea who I am so stop guessing because your powers of telepathy are seriously lacking
by really 000
you talk about single issue, identity oriented people being this huge problem and then you yourself have a difficult time logically debating with someone unless you can peg them as this or that. ideas beyond identity seem tough for you

thought that was interesting enough to point out
by 000
>>95 percent of the posters here have been white middle to upper-class low-card diet fadists that don't give a flying fuck about anarchism or revolution.

There has been little talk about anarchism for sure, but most of the posts are about the assault (not on diet per se) first and foremost.

>>I don't need a break because I'm not the one having an identity crisis over a pieing. and if you were aware of similar issues in the 90s why on earth are you so crushed now?

Wow, you are a presumptive little fucking asshole to say things like that about me. "crushed"? Really? As to why my response, I'll write it down for others, not for you because I think you are a little arrogant shit.

It's because there has been zero growth in the level of maturity, in the level of serious commitment, and in the level of tactics, and in concentrating less on infighting, and more on solidarity and unity. I don't know how you fabricate an identity crisis with feelings of being sad while watching the assault. I think that is a normal healthy human reaction. I've seen a lot of violence in my life. I am not a pacifist, but I really don't want to see any cowardly attacks at events like the bookfair.

>>I've seen people pepper sprayed. I've been gassed by cops. I've gotten cayenne pepper in my own eyes cooking.

Wow! aren't you cool. Wow, what a man you are! Do you have youtube videos so i can see how strong and heroic you are? ( a first hand witnessed who posted on the other indybay thread says she was in the bathroom with Keith after the attack and verifies the pepper in the pie)

>>there was no blood and there were no bruises or broken bones.

That's exactly what abusive men say when they attack women. It was an essentially pepper spray (cop like) attack.

>>you have no idea who I am so stop guessing because your powers of telepathy are seriously lacking

that's exactly how privileged white men always respond.
by huh
this is largely anonymous, meaning you can't believe shit here

I believe the photo of Keith talking to the cops int he other thread

and I believe my own experience, dumbass. I wasn't bragging, I was saying the photo of Keith taken shortly after this *horrendous* pepper attack show ZERO signs of pepper. if you'd ever seen someone peppered or hell even gotten it into your own eyes, you'd know damned well that the persons face and eyeballs are red afterward for hours, not pale and WHITE within 15-20 minutes.

even IF there had been some form of pepper, it wasn't *smeared* into her face as she and so many have claimed (check the video) and keith herself said the cheering in the crowd was worse, so any supposed pepper couldn't have been anything at all like having cops or whomever actually spray it straight into your face, mo matter how much you wish to exaggerate it as such.

medea benjamin (who did not call police after being attacked) reported stinging in her eyes from a pie crammed straight into the front of her face, so pies apparently sting and evidence points to that's what happened here, but it suited keith's purposes more to make it seem like an uber-evil brutal beat down rather than simply a humiliating pieing. the monstrosity of vegans fits right into her bogus thesis, and it's paying her well now

but you like your self-validating assumptions more than empirical evidence and you'll believe anything a known liar says because she's buds with a guy you worship (aqain, why did jensen say the book saved his life when he was never veg?)

I'll tell you what privilege is, its WHITE keith immediately yelling out "call the cops." sorry but poor and those of color do not automatically think of police as friends or saviors. they'll take help if it's really there, but police serve the privileged and they know that. keith thinks cops are there for her and expects then to put together a team and put out an APB to catch the pie-ers because she's just that special
by check it
in the other thread

maybe you can rephrase her comment for her, something along the hyperventilating lines of your previous attacks here...

>>Let me rephrase that for you: "Just get over it cry baby, women get assaulted all the time, i mean they don't get murdered most of the time? I mean the assault was bloodless and no bruises were showing. I mean it's kinda cool to get pepper sprayed cuz you can brag to all your friends about it."

right? she's poo-pooing the worst crime against any woman of all time?

punkin pie said: You wipe the crud off your face and go on.

I've been trying to say that to you, but you feel compelled to play the DA here and pump up the charges against the pie-ers beyond ridiculous. and anyone, like me, who argues for perspective in the big scheme of things is an anti-woman, racist, privileged, whatever, blah, blah blah

by 000
I wrote this in the other thread too:

"To not do something to stop that is, well, genocidal, or ecocidal. Now, as to how to do that? well, i dunno. I do know taking out the power grid is a fucking brain dead stupid idea. But at least they are challenging us with something, acknowledging the destruction. And lets get real here, it's all talk by Keith and Jensen. They are full of shit because they will never do it because Jensen's cop-out line is that "I am only a writer, you don't want me handling explosives". Yeah right. How fucking convenient.

The other issue is that given the FBI infiltration of the ELF type groups, they won't accomplish much. On top of that, they have a culture of ratting each other out when faced with jail time. So lets get real here, Keith, Jensen and Co. are loud mouths, but Jensen's ideas are really fucking good, logically, in that he draws the right conclusions about this death culture needing to be stopped.

Lets look at this with nuance and recognize the hard choices. The more I hear about Keith, the more I see her patterns of extremes, vegan then, meat eater now, the more they create a constant line of excessive mouth talking BS. It's linearly consistent."

I don't want to be seen as defending everything Keith says and does. I don't. I just don't think the way the attack went down, the context it went down in, was acceptable.

I also said in the other thread that calling the cops was unacceptable, especially given her rhetoric about direct action. It just looks foolish, and nothing was gonna be done about it by them. On that I agree. Sadly, it also raises the issue of safe spaces for people (especially people like Keith), and what I see as the lack of accountability.
by ohmmmm
I hear ya on safe spaces, but I don't think this represents a whole lot more than what it is

Keith is a rhetorical bomb thrower. when she threw one at a (what I think is a) key group of allies in the movement, she should have expected some backlash, especially in that animal lib folks have a history of direct action themselves

we can disagree about the pie/peppe/whatev, but she was deliberately provocative and she knew that there would be a bad reaction. (again, she doesn't just say "science shows this" or whatever -- she goes overboard calling vegetarians ignorant and so forth, very directly insulting)

anywho, it was rather predictable that if she was to speak at a place that normally is one of the most veg-friendly conferences around, with one of the highest percentages of vegans concentrated in one spot, that there was potential for trouble

normally, the bookfair people don't bring in speakers so directly offensive to a core group of enthusiasts

I honestly have no idea what PM is thinking in publishing the book and promoting her to a known hostile audience like that

obviously, the lo-carb people like her much more (even though they aren't familiar with her anti-civ stuff yet which will offend their middle class sensibilities)

anywho, I think this is a relative rarity and the bookfair doesn't need to go psycho on security etc in the future
by 000
ok fair enough. i am with on all of that. it's easy to work yourself up in front of a computer screen sometimes. some of the stuff she says seems very rhetorical bomb-shell like, i agree.

if the tryptophan comment she allegedly made on some TV news show the other day is true, that is just BS (i.e. the lack thereof = angry, especially when you don't need to eat meat to get it). the other issue is that it appears that the effects of diets differ significantly for different people. to presume that her response to a vegan diet applies universally, if that is indeed what she is assuming, that is just unscientific. you would really have to have a clinical trial with control to determine this kind of thing. perhaps her book addresses that, but i highly doubt it.
by both in both
regardless of veracity of TV interview, the tryptophan thing is in the book. that's how terribly researched it is

there is no science about her illness in the book. some chi doctor or something told her to eat meat (not in book). she doesn't even document exactly what she ate as a vegan. maybe she was malnurishing herself. who knows? but she pretends that only vegans get it, which is ridiculous, and that all vegans are suffering healthwise and mentally unstable. it's hugely offensive

she's basically feeding ill-informed people back their own prejudices against vegetarians and making cash off it. not getting rich probably, but she's certainly getting paid
by how can you be mad at that?
here's a March 17th SF Bay Area TV interview where she's lying about tryptophan again:

so, she was pied because of a non-existent deficiency by mentally deranged vegans

it had nothing to do with the fact that she's written an enormously dishonest and unfounded attack on all vegetarians
by 000
Someone on these threads mentioned this book. I just got The China Study. I plan on reading that first before Keith's book. It's a scientific study conducted by two researchers. Dr T. Colin Campbell's bio reads:

"For more than 40 years, Dr. T. Colin Campbell has been at the forefront of nutrition research. His legacy, the China Project, is the most comprehensive study of health and nutrition ever conducted. Dr. Campbell is the Jacob Gould Schurman Professor Emeritus of Nutritional Biochemistry at Cornell University. He has more than 70 grant-years of peer-reviewed research funding and authored more than 300 research papers"

I found it on Amazon, but got it a local small bookstore.

Excerpt of a review:

"The main point of this book is that most nutritional studies that we hear about in the media are poorly constructed because of what the author terms "scientific reductionism." That is, they attempt to pin down the effects of a single nutrient in isolation from all other aspects of diet and lifestyle."

That says it all. Diet is as complex as our bodies are. One nutrient (tryptophan) isn't going to make or break someone. It's absurd to think it would, putting aside the ridiculous argument that Veg*ns don't get it in their diet. I am sure Keith's book doesn't have the depth that this one does.
by Palpatine
He weighed 258 pounds, and 60 of those pounds was from severe fluid retention after he went into a coma from hitting his head when he slipped on the ice.

Have fun with your diabetes or hypoglycemia.
by believe everything you read?
here's the info linked to, and Atkins, even from this, didn't sound like a very healthy fellow. and sorry, but I don't buy that Atkins gained 60 pounds of fluid weight in two weeks. that strange "fact" was reported by an Atkins representative, who obviously had an interest in protesting the the embarrassment that Atkins was seriously overweight. without an independent and scientific source, not an Atkins hack, I call this out as BS. and that representatives attack on the messengers, PCRM, was BS as well because they merely passed on the real, legitimate coroner's report, they didn't make it up from whole cloth. anywho, that someone would point to the following as evidence that Aktins wasn't s sickly overweight pig who promoted a bullshit fad diet is laughable at best. here goes:

The below report from the New York City medical examiner--which was inadvertently provided to a Nebraska doctor who is vehemently anti-Atkins--shows that the 72-year-old physician had suffered from a heart attack, congestive heart failure, and hypertension. According to his death certificate, the "immediate cause" of Atkins's death last April was "blunt impact injury of head with epidural hematoma." He was critically injured when he struck his head in a fall on an icy Manhattan street. The references to Atkins's medical history are contained in handwritten notations on one page of the ME's document--"MI" for myocardial infarction, "CHF" for congestive heart failure, and "HTN" for hypertension. The document, first reported on by The Wall Street Journal, also lists Atkins weight as 258 pounds. However, an Atkins representative, Dr. Stuart Trager, today attacked the Journal for reporting that the physician was obese, contending that after Atkins lapsed into a coma and lay in the hospital for two weeks prior to his death, his 6' frame became severely bloated--by 60 pounds--due to liquid retention. Trager also criticized the dissemination of the document to the Journal by the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, which Trager described as a "group of Vegan and animal rights extremists." The Washington, D.C.-based organization, which is allied with People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, was provided the medical examiner's report by Richard Fleming, an Omaha, Nebraska doctor and Atkins diet critic. Fleming obtained the confidential report in late December after he simply sent a letter to the New York City ME asking for records on Atkins. In his letter, Fleming did not represent himself as having ever treated Atkins. Ellen Borakove, an ME's spokesman, told TSG that the document's release to Fleming was a "mistake." She added that New York officials today sent a letter to Nebraska's Health and Human Services System, which disciplines doctors, to make them aware of Fleming's recent actions.
by Palpatine
...because when vegans get their worldview challenged they just put their fingers in their ears and screeeeaaaam and screeeeaaaam and screeeeaaaam, but here it is anyway...

"In 2000, Dr. Atkins developed cardiomyopathy, an incurable heart condition which has quite a few different causes. His was thought to be from a viral illness, and his physician stated at the time that there was no evidence that his diet contributed to the condition. His coronary arteries were reported to have been checked at that time and found to be free of blockages.

"Cardiomyopathy makes it more likely that a person will have a cardiac arrest (heart stopping), which happened to him two years later. Again, the cardiac arrest was not thought to be diet related. His cardiologist stated that (other than the cardiomyopathy), Atkins had 'an extraordinarily healthy cardiovascular system'.

"William Leith, an writer who interviewed him around the time of his cardiac arrest stated that 'he looks to be just under 6 feet tall and around 200 lbs – not skinny, not thin, but definitely not fat.' A report from Atkins Nutritionals states that he played tennis competitively and that his weight was frequently checked, and in the years before his death was below 195, and six feet tall. And a medical report at the time of his admission to the hospital, which was later made public by his widow, states that he was 195 lbs on admission to the hospital. "

Happy Screaming! :-D
The medical report released is about the only thing I find remotely credible in all of that you just listed.

Sorry, but anyone making money off of Atkins or otherwise feeling loyalty to him, including his personal doctor, are not credible in this matter, not unless they released actual scientific test results which none of this appears to be reporting. Your really believe too much of this, without adequate substantiation, because you WANT to believe apparently. I'm looking for independently credible sources, not just whatever validates my worldview.

Funny, that Atkins wife was releasing a medical report they liked, but when one they didn't like was released they were screaming bloody murder.
I can speak for myself, but I stopped eating animals because roughly 95% of them in this country come from animals raised in factory farms, the motivation being to significantly decrease the amount of cruelty in this world that I personally contribute to

any health benefits were a secondary consideration, but for you and the Atkins cult you're own personal weight loss was the only consideration. the rest of the world be damned

yes, you can lose weight with Atkins in the short term, but I do not think there is anywhere near the science needed to even begin to truly say it's healthy. most research shows increased colon cancer, heart attacks, etc for diets that include too much meat
by Men Against Misogyny
This is about a disabled women being assaulted in front of a room full of people who claim to be "anarchists," but did nothing to stop it from happening. These people aren't anarchists. Marusya Nikiforova was an anarchist. These people are poseurs.

by 000
As someone present in the room, I can assure you that there was no time to react. I opposed this cowardly attack as you can see from all my posts on this thread.

So lets be fair about this, a lot of people opposed it, but the way it happened, it would have been nearly impossible to act to prevent it. I was in the back of the room watching and trying to figure out who these people were. It happened in about 3 seconds. At first I just thought someone was making their way down the stage. Before you realized what had happened it was over. And then the shock set in for a minute. by the time I comprehended what had happened they were gone. They were also masked. So identifying them wasn't going to happen.

Lets not generalize about everyone present. I am sure there were vegans there who opposed this action too.
and you are the ultimate authority on who gets to be in your anarchist club and who not?

how about Keith? she's about as big a poseur as they come. and I'm not even calling her an anarchist poseur because obviously she isn't one when she says things at the bookfair like "I don't care about anarchists." what she is is she's a giant radical environmentalist fraud.

she's for the end of capitalism, but gets giddy when her amazon ranking goes up (amazon has hurt countless small bookstores). she very clearly advocated for major sabotage that she hopes would force us to instantly adopt another lifestyle (for those who survive the attacks on infrastructure), but she calls the police when some people pie her. she claims to be against industrial agriculture, but buddies up with low-carb folks in order to attack vegetarians (low-car folks eating more factory farmed meat than anyone, therefore being far at the top of the industrial farming consumer pyramid), but she doesn't say peep to them about what they eat. she claims her book is backed up by science, but it is largely anecdotal and much if not most of the science is poorly handled and simply inaccurate, if not deliberately and dishonestly twisted to suit her needs
by anarchist
By definition, an anarchist is someone who consciously practices anarchism. Anarchism is the sum total of what all anarchists believe in. If only some anarchists believe in it, it's not anarchism. Veganism, primitivism, and animal rights, for example are not anarchism. Only those things that ALL anarchists believe in can be truly considered anarchism.

The most basic principles of anarchism include, solidarity, mutual aid and feminism. Not one of these was put into practice by the people who witnessed this atrocity and did nothing about it.

"It all happened too fast," is not a valid excuse. As the Youtube video clearly shows, it didn't happen any faster than the first moves of a typical bar brawl. But in a bar brawl, half the patrons are involved before the first guy hits the floor. And they're drunk. Drunks are slow. What are you, slower than a drunk? I don't believe it.

Real anarchists wouldn't have needed time to figure out what was happening and decide what to do. A woman got hit. What else do you need to know? That more than enough for any real anarchist, or for that matter, any human being with even a shred of righteous honor. When a man hits a woman, and especially when three men hit a woman, the die is cast. Solidarity, mutual aid and feminism all demand that anarchists act, immediately and decisively. Would Durruti have sat around wondering what he should do? Would Makhno? Would Marusya?

>how about Keith?

Nothing about her is relevant except that she is a woman, she is disabled and she was assaulted. Stop making excuses. There is no valid excuse, ever, for assaulting any woman, or any disabled person, ever, ever, ever, no exceptions, not even one. Stop trying to make one. It's disgusting to listen to. Even if she was a complete asshole, it wouldn't excuse assaulting her, least of all for saying something you didn't like. Assaulting women and disabled people is not acceptable behavior, ever. Neither is assaulting people who say something you disagree with.

Speaking of which:

Most vegans don't like this woman because they heard somewhere that she bad mouthed their eating disorder. It's true, she did. It's about damn time somebody did. But if any of these people had actually read the book they would know that what she said about vegans was a very small part of the book, and by no means its primary thesis. The book is not about vegans or veganism. They barely rate a mention, compared to the real topic, which takes up most of the book.

This book is about the depredations of monoculture, not just factory farmed meat, but the wheat, soy and corn farming whose damage to the environment exceeds that done by factory farmed meat by orders of magnitude. That's why she was invited to speak. That she happens to also piss off food fascists is just icing on the cake.

Food fascists suck. They're cowardly, authoritarian bullies, as this incident so clearly demonstrates. They're the same kind of people who voted the Nazis into power because the Nazi party platform contained a strong animal rights plank, and because Hitler claimed to be a vegetarian. Don't think for a moment that if these people had state power that they wouldn't send their version of brownshirts to kick in your door, denude your fridge of "incorrect" food, and rip off your beloved animal companions to "free" them. That's the kind of people they are. That's what they believe. They admit it in public, in print and repeatedly. The only reason they aren't doing it already is they haven't the power. So instead they resort to cowardly acts of terrorism like this deplorable assault. There's a reason they throw paint on rich women's furs but not on bikers' leather jackets. They're chicken-shit hypocrites.

The first step to totalitarian society is to sit back and tolerate people with totalitarian mindsets when they act out in public like this. Instead, their cause should be nipped in the bud, ASAP and BAMN. It is the precise opposite of anarchism. Anarchism is about solidarity, mutual aid, feminism and above all, liberty. Liberty, in case you haven't figured it out yet, includes the ability to choose your own diet, without being force fed by roving gangs of masked cultists.
by hello
I recognize that blither blather. Seen the same comment typed 1000 times before, or copied and pasted from some dusty locker of personal anti-social dysfunction. Decided to pop your head up out of that Scottish Loch, did ya?

Since you're here lurking around - in most obvious tired old form with that last comment, without honestly addressing your own role in this debacle - don't miss these comments calling the bookstore to task and addressing the whining about Lierre's "disabilities."
by and?
How about eco-fascists such as Keith? It's certainly relevant to look at Keith's naive and dangerous politics if you going to smear an entire category of people based on their value system, and not just condemn the pie throwers for their action.

Keith is cool with saboteurs taking out the electrical grid. Everything you just said about kicking down doors to police refrigerators is made up BS, but Keith has publicly stated she's down for people to independently determine exactly what type of world we live in. That's a million times more egotistical and self-righteous than any of the made up crap you try to throw at vegetarians. Keith understands that shutting down the electrical grid without even notifying people about the action would lead to civil unrest and she says cities only have about 13 days worth of food.

How many disabled people will die if anyone ever takes her advice? How many women would die? How many hundreds of thousands or millions of people total would die in the food shortages and chaos such an action would bring? Keith feels like that's okay, she knows best, but three pies are the worst crime in the world and worthy of working with police.

These questions do not even to get into the incredible amount of naivete involved in that she thinks if such an action were taken, forget about all of the deaths it would directly cause, that the resulting world would magically fall into place as she fantasizes about and not inadvertently set into motion a nation of warlords who despoil the ecosystem more than anything before.
by you just don't get it, do you?
Nothing about her is relevant except that she is a woman, she is disabled and she was assaulted. Stop making excuses. She wasn't hurting anybody. She was talking. There is never an excuse to put pepper in the eyes of a disabled woman who said something you didn't like, no matter what it was that she said. People who make excuses for behavior like that are exactly the kind of people who go around kicking in doors once their friends in high places give them a uniform and the orders. Read history. Nazi brownshirts were already trashing animal labs before Hitler even became chancellor. That's exactly who these miscreants are acting like. They already use terrorism to try to enforce their dietary choices on others. They're every bit as anti-choice as the anti-abortionists. They just focus on a different kind of choice, that's all. They even threaten the families of chefs who prepare food they disapprove of.

And it's no secret that they want to do away with humans having animal companions. They say so in their own propaganda. In 1986, in the Washingtonian, PETA founder Ingrid Newkirk described humans having animal companions as an "abysmal situation." Two years later, in Harpers, she said, "Eventually companion animals will be phased out . . ." Her fellow PETAphile, author John Bryant, said, "The car, like the dog, must disappear . . . ."

Either the animal rights movement's leaders and spokespersons are lying, or they intend to separate us from our animal companions as soon as they have the power to do so.

It is irrational to believe that people who are willing, even eager, to put pepper in a disabled woman's eyes because she said something they didn't like, would somehow find it too extreme to kick in our doors to "rescue" our animal companions.

A dog and a cat share my home. We love each other. They can have the cat when they pry the dog's cold, dead jaws from around their neck. He'll rip any of their faces off that the dog didn't have a chance to. Then I'll start shooting. So bring it on, motherfuckers. Molan labe.
yes, you are a broken record

if you want not a focus on Keith's bizarre, dangerous, and naive political philosophy then you should only speak of the three pie people and not every vegetarian on the planet as one homogeneous group. if you are going to talk about broader issues, so are we. and we won't be browbeat into your hypocritical framing of the issues

"refrigerators and cats and dogs -- you can have them when you pry them from my dead cold hands" (tough talk!!) VERSUS Keith believing it's okay to disable the electric grid, without regard for how many people would die, meaning NO refrigerators and LOTS and LOTS of other "lifestyle" changes caused by Keith's fanatical lust to live the life of a noble savage hunter-gatherer

hmmmm, you're histrionics just don't make any sense when comparing these two things. one about refrigerators completely made up by you, one real belief that we shouldn't be breeding dogs and cats any more (not kicking down your door to take live ones), and then another publicly expressed desire to "kick down the door" of our entire civilization, something akin to Pol Pot's hatred of cities. Keith is a genocide-mongering misanthrope and you pull a random quote about not breeding cats and dogs as your big smear of vegetarians? it's laughable at best

say, speaking of dogs, have you killed any and reanimated them lately? real interesting reading last time you posted about your experiences doing such things at home
by they're enemies of all humanity
>"refrigerators and cats and dogs -- you can have them when you pry them from my dead cold hands"

That's not what I said. They're putting words into my mouth, i.e., they're lying yet again. Scroll up and see for yourselves.

>one about refrigerators completely made up by you,

Animal rights terrorists once showed up at the family *home* of a chef whose menu at his restaurant they disapproved of. His home! With his family inside!!!! After reading about a stunt like that, to say nothing of their putting pepper in a disabled woman's eyes, if you don't think the animal rights nuts aren't champing at the bit to come into your home and force their diet on you and your family, you haven't read enough history or enough psychology.

These are dangerous people. Give them an inch and they'll take over everything. Remember, Hitler said back in the 20s that he intended to kill Jews and invade Russia, but nobody believed him, so nobody nipped in the Nazis in the bud like they could have been. Instead, they put it off, and fifty million people died. Let's not make that mistake again. These people are dangerous. Either we stop them now, while they are small and weak, or sooner or later we'll wish we had. Between them and the Army of God, America has spawned its own Taliban. Nobody took the Taliban seriously, either, until they had power. Then look what they did. These people have *exactly* the same mentality. They have demonstrated repeatedly that they honestly believe they have the moral right to do anything whatsoever to force their sick, evil cause down humanity's throat.

I believe their leaders when they say they want to do away with cats and dogs. People should have believed the Nazi's leaders when they made predictions, too. Either we learn from history or we have to repeat it. When totalitarian minded people who have yet to achieve real state power act out like these bastards who peppered the disabled woman's eyes and then make excuses, as if there could ever be an excuse for such despicable behavior, are not nipped in the bud, sooner or later, it will take open war to dislodge them. That's the lesson of history. It was true of the Nazis. It is true of the Taliban. It is equally true of their spiritual brethren, the animal rights movement.

>real interesting reading last time you posted about your experiences doing such things at home

I said no such thing. If I had, this lying asshole could present proof that I did. Why do animal rights people tell so many lies? Oh, right, now I remember.


One more time. These cowardly, fascist assholes put pepper in a disabled woman's eyes! There is NO excuse for behavior like that, none whatsoever. Anyone who attempts to excuse it is any way at all, especially by citing her alleged thought crimes, is the perfect blend of villain and asshole.
not exactly. it was posted at a website that you ran into the ground, so it no longer exists or I'd happily point people to it here

who's lying now?
by dt
Funny that you cite PETA advocating for an end to breeding animals in the most disingenuous way by making it seem like she wants Nazis to kick in doors to steal dogs

And then you downplay Keith's murderous open advocacy for disabling the electric grid as merely a "thought crime" (never mind the psychological issues raised by her misanthropy)

You, sir, are a dishonest hypocrite and clearly not one worthy being taken seriously in debate in comment threads

by lies and the lying liars who sell them
see her lie AGAIN about tryptophan on the TV news and then read about why it's just a huge lie
No kidding, you're all pathetic and irrelevant. I've been active in anarchist politics for decades, and I've never even heard of this woman. Call me out of touch, but you can bet 99.9999% of the population doesn't know about her either. Some masked dopes are so threatened by Keith that they have to pie her? If the hot pepper thing is true, that's fucked up. I wish she hadn't gone to the police, but ultimately, this just speaks to the absolute impotence and irrelevance of the anarchist scene.
by marco's
So let me understand this, an author and activist. A middle aged lesbian who was invited to speak, does so at a anarchist convention and gets attacked(the method does not matter) and the jist of your defense is to belittle the victim's feelings.
Forget about freedom of speech, freedom of expression the right to live without fear, the free exchange of idea's. Apparently your version of freedom is vastly different than mine.
To me what these cowards did was no different than every other abuser out there, be they the state or the drunken redneck wife beater. And your response is no different than all the defenders of them say the old usual crap like "they didn't really mean it, or you made me cause of what you did or it wasn't that bad really".

Is this the true nature of you? Does freedom only apply when you agree with the message? Apparently so, when I heard of this I expected comments condemning the action, period. I could even understand if there are those that feel threatened by her work(this is the sign of a small mind, but apparently there is no lack of them in this crowd) but to condemnl the victim because you disagree with the message and to support violence because someone talks about what happened to her, this is beyond the pale there is not ever any excuse for either them or you.

Nough said, shamed to call myself part of your community
by marco's
I am no fan of the police, they rank right up there with heart attacks. But looking at the responses here what choice did she have? Was she to tuck her tail and meekly accept it? Wouldn't this have been the same as endorsing the action?

Yes it would have been best if she could not have needed to go to the police, but for that to have even been an option the first thing that had to happen was for the so called anarchist community to give these cowards up and then force them to do what ever Leirre needed them to do to make it right.

But ultimately our job as second hand observers is to support the victim. Where is that support.

For this has nothing to do with whether you agree with her work or not, it is all about whether you practice what you preach or you are simply a lair.
by "At first they made me feel ashamed."
The three individuals who attacked Lierre with the pepper laced pie were either modern day COINTELPRO-styled operatives trying to provoke internal conflict within anarchist circles or simply misguided trendy fools who are threatened by individuals like Lierre redefining their ideologies independent of the larger "groupthink" mentality. Either way, the dogma coming from the most militant vegans about "eating ANY meat is wrong" without any room for intelligent debate about other alternatives to CAFO factory farmed animals is a worrisome trend.

Lierre is NOT in favor of CAFO factory farming, though she feels that humans are evolved as omnivores and it takes more than vegan ideology of recent generations to overthrow our evolutionary disposition to be omnivores. Why can vegans not work together with primitivists (or indigenists), permaculture activist farmers and labor rights activists to shut down factory farms?

We need to overcome dogmas and disagreements within the vegan, primitivist and anarchist circles by open and honest discussions, NOT by assaulting our potential debate opponents with pepper pies. Throwing a pie in someone's face is the surest way to censor and stifle any potential dialogue with the person speaking and even the people who disagree. What COULD have happened was a spirited discussion in a Q & A session following her speech at the bookfair, but no, the pie throwers jumped the gun and in the process silenced any potential debates that could have evolved everyone there into realms of higher thinking. Of course, since when do trendyfucks like the three pie throwers ever care about intellectual evolution??

Me personally i can find points of disagreement with probably every human on Earth today, though i do NOT run around throwing pies at people just because i don't agree with them on certain points! The ONLY appropriate targets for pie throwing are corporate CEOs who are themselves stifling debate and censoring their opposition.

Of course it takes far more resolve, skill, courage and planning to pie the CEO of ConAgra (supplies grain to feedlots) than to pie some previously unknown primitivist speaking at an anarchist book fair!!

Here's a fitting song from the Subhumans 1985 "Worlds Apart" album called "Power Ames". The story of this song applies to the modern vegan movement where conformity is valued above individual thinking;

"A passing stranger dressed in black
With slogans painted on his back
Turned and stared and laughed and carried on

Another came and did the same
At first they made me feel ashamed
But then I realised what I had done

Without asking I had broke the rules
Without knowing, I had made them fools
By merely looking different

To those who knew the game
The unity was there to see
A mass of non-conformity

There's something wrong, or is it me?
But they all look just the same
They hung around in silent pairs

And gave out their derisive stares
To anyone who envied or ignored
A leaflet saying Smash the state

Work in love and not hate
Got snatched and ripped and ground into the floor
Without asking it, I had caught them out

Without knowing what it was all about
They assumed it was a wind-up or a con
Making sure with a nervous glance

They re-affirmed each other's stance
And smiled and then forgot and carried on
The passing strangers stayed that way

And rotted away in their own decay
Convinced they'ld got it right, the rest were wrong
By deriding them to gain respect

They tied a noose around their neck
And fell when something different came along
Without asking them, they were soon put down

Without knowing why, they looked around
And found a new dictatorship in power
Acting just as they had done

But on the other end it's not much fun
And all their sweet delusions soon turned sour
One man's hand is another man's fist

And so the power games still exist
And on idea is right, the rest are wrong
While such ideas as this are here

We'll never live without the fear
Of feeling that we somehow don't belong"

song found @;

The song lyrics to "Subvert City also apply here.
by really now?
Well, if you think Lierre is contributing to this intellectual evolution, then you must think it's okay to lie in print and on TV (tryptophan etc), attack others with name-calling in print (ignorant, childish, etc), and wrap what otherwise would have been a book about industrial agriculture with her own personal psychological issues of projecting her self-loathing on to ALL vegetarians as she rebukes her former self in the most public way she could.

As for group-think, did you catch how the low-carb diet trendies rallied around Keith because she validates their diet heavy in animal flesh? She made a pretty penny selling them books because they like her pseudo-scientific arguments against vegetarians. She's better allies with some of the people who are the heaviest consumers of industrial agriculture than she is with any serious environmentalists. (You know that eating animals is a very inefficient way to get nutrition when most modern agriculture is dedicated to supporting livestock for omnivores, don't you?)

Frankly, that's not a part of any "intellectual evolution" I am interested in. It's a dishonest and disingenuous intellectual evolution at best; movement splitting cointelpro at worst.
by misuse of Subhumans?
sorry, but I HAVE to call you out on this, being a fan of the band for nearly two decades

are you offering intellectual evolution or intellectual dishonesty??


You know that most of the members of most of the bands in the Crass clique were vegetarians, don't you? Now that's some serious "intellectual evolution" to quote Subhumans lyrics to make the case for an omnivorous diet.

Let's see what the singer of the Subhumans had to say on the subject...

What are your views on eating meat? I know that you are a vegetarian, can you tell me why, what made you not want to eat meat?

i must admit i gave it up at first cos my friends did! not much thought at first, but then i stopped getting indigestion and stomach cramps, and i re-read some lyrics and read more info on pamphlets at gigs and i felt just better about myself....a case of the action preceding the idealism behind the action!

mostly its as easy as life or death, killing=bad, its that basic. add to that the cruelty of farming methods and the nature of the human digestive system [not suited to meat, most of which is hanging around for 3 days in the gut], and the total waste of space used to grow say cows instead of say wheat, which would feed the starving just is a good idea!

On that note where can someone go to learn how to eat healthy with out meat? The reason I ask I just recently stopped eating meat (because I get sick whenever I do, so I took it as a sign).

health food stores, supermarkets even, eat fruit, nuts, and nowadays theres soya versions of bacon/ham/chicken/sausages/turkey so there IS 'something to chew on', and soya has a shitload of protein in it, so dont no-one gimme that 'i need my meat for the protein' bollocks! most of what you eat isnt meat anyway, and what meat there is is all replaceable
by more misunderstandings about veganism
Calling someone childish is childish. Throwing pies at someone who called your friends childish is also childish. So stop acting childish, ya'll!!

Note just how easily my intent at posting the Subhumans lyrics were twisted into claiming that Subhumans endorsed eating meat? NEVER, EVER said that!!

the lyrics of "Power Ames" was about how one group of radical non-conformists grew into critical mass until they became the dominant group-clique ideology. This could apply to anyone, in this case it is certain militant vegans who try to determine what is allowed to be said in speech and print.

NEVER would i endorse the Atkins diet, as an omnivore i advocate plenty of plant based carbs and animal based protein. Soy protein has plenty of problems, including genetic engineering. Other plant based proteins from beans and nuts are an option in certain climates, though not everywhere. Transport of food will be an issue in postindustrial society, so colder climates may need to harvest wild animals for protein.

NEVER did i claim that people should get their animal protein from factory farms! Am endorsing permaculture (free range, no hormones, no antibiotics, etc...) AND wild game hunting refuges being created today so that wild herbivores are given time to increase their population sizes so that regulated hunting will be an option in the post-industrial future we all face together.

Hope that clears things up for now, until the next words twister comes along!!
that's NOT what the above comment said either

it said that it was some serious "intellectual evolution" on your part to use their lyrics to make a case against vegetarians or for omnivores

to encourage people to eat meat today is inevitably to encourage people to eat factory farmed animals. 95% of all animals raised in America today are raised in factory farms.

free range and hunting are for the privileged who can afford or have access to those options and neither can not provide meat and dairy to the 350 million Americans who consume one or the other or both 3 times every day. there is not enough land to provide such massive amounts of meat and dairy without factory farming.
by Steve
The pie incident helped an obscure book that deserved to be obscure enjoy some temporary light in the sun. Well, looking at the amazon sales ranking, her book is now back in obscurity with a sales ranking of 20,021
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