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Friday's Trespass at the Metro Trial--Notes from the Defendant
by Robert Norse
Monday May 18th, 2009 8:40 PM
Below are some of the trial details and my account of how the city, county, and Metro District are spending public money to justify the behavior of their security services--in the face of law and common sense. I've described last November's harassment by Metro Security guards and SCPD before (most recently "City Takes Broadcaster to Court for Chatting at the Metro" at ). The sage continues...
The trial began around 2:15 pm. Friday and lasted around an hour and a half. About a dozen people were in the courtroom watching the trial—including Sentinel reporter Jennifer Squires (who wrote a small clip about the case at ).

Presiding was Judge Ariadne Symons in Dept. 1, a former lead Santa Cruz County D.A. As Superior Court judge, she was found “unqualified” by the Commission on Judicial Performance before she was elected last spring. When she appealed that ruling, she was again found unqualified. Her performance at trial definitely showed her temperment was more that of a prosecuting attorney, at pains to defend police, rather than one concerned with defending the rights of the accused (or even balancing them against the claims of the prosecution).

No attorney from the city appeared to cross-examine the two witnesses against me (Security guard Danny Delgadillo and SCPD Officer David Albert). No matter--Symons herself seemed to relish taking on the job.. She frequently interrupted me and attorney Beauvais, maintaining a manner somewhere between austere and skeptical. Instead of letting the prosecution case stand or fall on the testimony of the police, she interjected herself with objections, arguments, questions. It felt like she was still largely locked in the role of D.A. though decked out in judicial robes.

Symons began by announcing she would not allow me or my attorney to make a recording for personal use, nor—more importantly—to record the trial for broadcast. She described my 15-year role as a Free Radio Broadcaster as “what is referred to as media”.

It's ironic. Later in the trial, the security guard claimed that his main motivation for having me banned from the Metro Center and criminally cited when I didn't turn off the tape recorder as I asked him to identify himself. At the very beginning of the trial, Symons seemed to have the same authoritarian sensitivity to being publicly accountable. Refusing to allow me to tape record the proceeding would delay if not defeat any attempt to give the public a clear record of her behavior in the courtroom, what she allowed as evidence, her tone throughout, and her attitude towards the case. In short, the lack of recording obscures the fact she was running interference for the police, the city, and the Metro Transit Authority.

Instead of allowing us to record, she suggested we buy a copy of the court-recorded audio, but had no idea how much it cost. Written transcripts of trials are notoriously expensive and far beyond the reach of poor defendants charged with “crimes” such as “trespass at the Metro” (i.e. conduct displeasing a security guard such as tape recording his inappropriate intrusions) and “sleeping outside after 11 PM) (the City's Sleeping Ban). If this trial was any indication, impoverished defendants will get no procedural sympathy or assistance from Symons.

Her job, of course, was to simply read the law to see if it actually applied to anything I did—and then to determine if I were guilty “beyond a reasonable doubt”.

Symons further informed my attorney, David Beauvais, that she would be limiting time and testimony on my case because it was “only an infraction”. Defendants are supposed to given the same trial rights in infraction cases as for more serious offenses, though not allowed a jury trial or a public defender. In return they are not supposed to be facing the prospect of jail (though many often are, for inability to pay fines or community service fees). She did so in a severe, perfunctory tone.

Symon's procedure if not her intent seemed designed to inspire fear and obedience through a clipped series of arbitrary sounding orders, in response to which she expected attorneys to scurry if not grovel.

The underlying issue in the case, the reason I went to the Metro that Sunday November afternoon, and the reason I refused to leave when told to do so was my concern about how Metro guards and SCPD were treating poor people and homeless people in public spaces. If an alternative media reporter seeking to investigate and document abuses gets threatened and cited, it's likely the same procedure or worse is being applied to those with quieter voices.

Lest some think false arrest behavior is simply an isolated “low level abuse” by a security guard, note the history of the case after Delgadillo's superiors were informed. The case was fully aired on audio tape back in November on the radio and archived on audio files at and (download and fast forward through the show).

Vice-Mayor Rotkin and the City Council were informed. Rotkin, who's also at the Metro Transit Board of Directors and did raise the issue of “Metro rules” at a Board meeting, ignored public records act requests and took no effort to get this situation dismissed and clarify the limits of the powers of the Metro Security guards and the rights of the public. Delgadillo's Metro bosses were also advised of the event in repeated Public Records Act requests as well as citizen complaints. There was mostly no response until April 2009, when the Metro's legal counsel began coughing up documents like Delgadillo's report, the Metro rules, and pictures of Metro signs (not including the sign I supposedly “blocked”).

Instead of dropping the charges, apologizing, and retraining the guards to understand the limits of their authority, Metro stonewalled, the City Attorney took no action other than demand I supply documents (and then didn't show up in court), and Judge Symons continued to dog attorney Beauvais with prosecutorial questions and postponed a final decision until June 9th.

Why not? At the end of the road there seems to be yet another level of cover up, this time judicial. Judge Symons, cuts off the public's access to her own prosecution-sympathetic court process.

The background has been described several times on indybay. On November 2nd, two homeless men tried to get a security guard to turn off religious sermons being blasted over the loudspeakers at the Pacific Avenue entrance to the Metro Center. They were imperiously told to go away if they didn't like it. At their request, I confronted the same tall security officer. He directed me to leave the property and threatened me with arrest, then strode off to a private area of the Metro where I was prevented from following. He later apparently initiated the concerns that led a second security guard (Delgadillo to demand I leave.

Both Officer Albert and Metro Guard Delgadillo were in court. There was no formal prosecution present, which meant that the two cops were supposedly simply able to present their accounts and answer questions from the defense. They were not supposed to make legal arguments supporting their case. In the absence of a prosecuting attorney, the facts were supposed to speak for themselves. Apparently, John Barisone, City Attorney's secret weapon was Judge Symons part-time prosecutor.

My attorney anticipated the judge would grant a motion to dismiss the case for insufficient evidence after the two cops had spoken. There was no evidence that I was disrupting business at the Metro. The guard's only claims were that I was “blocking a sign” (which I later measured at being 6' wide) and tape recording his refusal to identify himself and demands that I leave. The police had filed under the wrong law—and even that law had a specific exemption for “first amendment activity”, which I was clearly engaged in as a broadcaster.

Symons refused to dismiss the case. Instead, faced with the weakened “blocking a sign” pretext, she turned to the “recording a guard” and tried to suggest that the guard had a right to object. He did, of course, but I still had a right to record him. And he had no right to arrest me, ban me from the Metro, and then drag me to court in retaliation.

Symons also didn't want to spend the time in court listening the fifty-five minute tape during the court hearing as she was “busy with other matters” (throughout the trial she was signing papers on other issues). The fact that a dozen other people had taken time out of their workday to come down and that the city attorney's office had wasted 8 months of public time and money pursuing a false arrest didn't make any impression on her. I suspect a second motivation might have been the embarrassment Symons would face with the clear evidence that the security guard was misrepresenting what happened and simply arbitrarily ordering me to leave—and the SCPD backing him up.

Instead of examining and acknowledging the evidence that there were no rules that I had violated at the Metro, Symons referred back Delgadillo's testimony that I had “recorded without permission” as a “evidence”. No such rule was posted nor mentioned in the set of Metro regulations which we put into evidence. (Such a rule would be unconstitutional in a public place anyway, particularly pertaining to an interaction between a police agency and a member of the public making their own recording as an objective record.)

Over my attorney's initial objections, I insisted on testifying myself finally to clarify what went down—not always the best thing to do in a criminal case, but I felt the truth had to be told. I disputed Delgadillo's fabrication that he had even mentioned that his concern that I was blocking the sign and that he asked me to move. I challenged his claim that he had asked me to leave because there was a “rule” against tape recording. I challenged his claim that I had later gotten permission later to record at a subsequent protest visit (I never request permission to do what we have the right to do). Had I not done so, though the truth of the matter was evident from the rules themselves, Symons would have technically been able to rule that the best “evidence” was Delgadillo's testimony. She might yet rule that you have to petition, bow, and scrape for the right to give out a flyer at the Metro rather than simply be there and expect to be left alone—unless you're doing something unlawful.

My attorney David Beauvais made some strong closing arguments, clarifying that if two laws exist side by side in the same code about the same behavior and one is specific to the place—as is true in this case—the police have to cite under the code that is more specific. He made it clear that even under the wrong code I had the right to be there. He provided court decisions upholding the right to be in and audio record in public places and documentation that the Metro was a public area, not “a private business” as claimed by the security guard and the police.

Her decision is slated to come down June 9th 10 AM in Dept. 1. My attorney, seeing a rough draft of this story suggested I not be so critical of Symons before knowing her final decision. For me, however, the issue isn't her final decision, but that she proceeded at all and how she conducted the trial.

We'll know about her decision in early June. My decision was made several weeks after the November 2nd arrest when I returned without permission to video, audio, flyer, and ask others if they'd been harassed. The story is told at . I stood exactly where I'd stood before in front of a 6' wide sign (which I'd supposedly “blocked” before), this time with a group of people and some video rolling. The same security guard smiled at me and greeted me in a friendly manner, expressing no objection to my tape recording.

Six months later he went to court to accuse of criminal behavior for doing the same thing two weeks before. Delgadillo also stated that the security company he'd been working for had its contract terminated, and a new company hired (with him hired back). One would have hoped that such matters as the rights of the public and the powers of the guards would by this time have been clarified—and improper behavior corrected with past mistakes apologized for. Apparently not so. The trial went forward. And Judge Symons is still “considering” the matter.

If you've experienced harassment at the Metro or been ticketed by police lately for violating the anti-homeless ordinances downtown, please leave a message on, or give me a call at 423-4833.

There was also some discussion of the trial on my radio show last Sunday at (download and fast forward to the middle of the show).

I'm also interested in any experiences folks have had pro and con in Judge Symons' court (Department 1). Please e-mail me at rnorse3 [at] .

Comments  (Hide Comments)

by Robert Norse
Tuesday May 19th, 2009 9:34 AM
Defenders of Judge Symons write on a thread of the Sentinel website ( that it's the Commission on Judical Nominees Evaluation (JNE) rather than the Commission on Judicial Performance that evaluated Symonds. They are right and I apologize for naming the wrong commission.

Symonds supporters also dispute the claim that the JNE found her "unqualified". I believe they are wrong. I take my information from claims by Sentinel letter writers Grace Berblandt and Gelman Smith at . Attorney Kate Wells says she got the information from Symonds' opponent in the judge's race last year, Steve Wright (

I have a call in to Steve Wright to get further information.

It seems likely these claims are accurate since they were not disputed during the election campaign--at least in the letters pages of the Sentinel.

If I ever get a chance, I will ask Symons directly about the issue.
Tuesday May 19th, 2009 10:40 AM

Jennifer Squires - Sentinel Staff Writer
Article Launched: 05/15/2008 12:00:00 AM PDT

The one thing everyone can agree on is Ariadne Symons was found unqualified to be a Superior Court judge by the state commission that assesses judicial applicants.

However, why Symons, who is campaigning for judge, was denied two years ago remains a mystery.

Symons said Wednesday she was never told why her application was rejected two years ago. She also said she thinks the decision by the state bar Judicial Nominees Evaluation Commission "is irrelevant to voters."

Symons, a prosecutor in the District Attorney's Office, and defense attorney Steve Wright are vying for the position that will open up when Judge Samuel Stevens retires at the end of the year. The election is June 3.

Wright, in a mailer this month, campaigns on the fact that the JNE Commission found him qualified to be a judge in 1985. Wright applied to become a municipal judge and was approved by the commission, but the Republican governor did not appoint him.

Wright said he was apprehensive about bringing up his qualified rating because he penned two letters of recommendation for Symons when she was in the judge application process.

"I never wanted to make it an issue," Wright said. "I don't know why she was found unqualified."

Symons sought an appointment to the Santa Cruz County Superior Court in spring 2006, but was rejected by the "Jenny" Commission. She appealed the decision, but lost.

"The JNE Commission is a rather secretive and very closed process," Symons said. "Local attorneys are able to make anonymous comments about a candidate for judge, and such comments remain secret, thus providing no real opportunity for the candidate to respond."

The volunteer commission, which is overseen by the State Bar of California, assists the governor to select judges by investigating applicants.

State bar spokeswoman Diane Curtis said all of the commission's proceedings are confidential.

Symons claims that "no local prosecutor or defense attorney has been found qualified by the JNE Commission in the past 10 years. It is a statement about the JNE Commission's secretive and backroom process that no such person has been deemed qualified."

Other sitting judges in Santa Cruz County who were found unqualified appealed the ruling and eventually made it on the bench.

The commission has four ratings: exceptionally well qualified, well qualified, qualified and not qualified, meaning they do not have the minimum qualities and attributes "necessary to perform the judicial function adequately and satisfactorily." Between 9 to 29 percent of trial and appellate judge candidates evaluated by the commission are found unqualified each year, however, it's unclear if those figures include judges who appealed and overturned an initial "not qualified" finding.

Other sitting judges in Santa Cruz County who were found unqualified appealed the ruling and eventually made it on the bench.

Commissioners consider a wide range of factors when evaluating applicants for judge, according to the state bar.

In addition to professional ability and experience, the commission assesses the applicant's judicial temperament, intellect, judgment, honesty, objectivity, community respect, integrity, commitment to equal justice, moral turpitude, communication skills and freedom from bias.

Commissioners gather information about candidates from a list of professional contacts provided by the candidate, a sampling of attorneys in the counties where the candidate practices, judges in those counties, personal references from the candidate and -- if the candidate is a criminal law attorney -- members of the district attorney's and public defenders' offices.

Though the commission's responses from Symon's colleagues won't be disclosed, the county bar association will release the results of a "straw poll" of local attorneys next week.

Wright said he is supportive of the judicial plebiscite. He said he did not attend the meeting to make a statement to the board because they were already aware of his stance.

"They're in the best position to know what type of person I am and what type of lawyer I am," Wright said.

Symons also did not attend the board of directors' meeting.
Contact Jennifer Squires at 429-2449 or jsquires [at]
by Robert Norse
Tuesday May 19th, 2009 6:13 PM
Attorney David Beauvais has just informed me that Judge Symons has sent him an order requiring a complete and accurate written transcription of the 55-minute audio tape that she declined to listen to in court.

If Beauvais does not furnish this transcript he faces possible contempt of court charges---jail for either up to 5 days (if civil contempt) or up to 6 months (if criminal contempt).

I have never heard of expensive transcripts being required in infraction cases. Symonds didn't mention such a requirement when the tape was introduced in evidence. She gave no explanation in her order to Beauvais as to why she was requiring it (other than the implicit "because I'm the Judge and I can").

It penalizes future defendants who try to present audio evidence since they may then be required to pay out-of-pocket transcription costs essentially if they want the court to hear the actual tape as evidence. Transcription costs can run up to several hundred dollars.

This smells like a vindictive attempt to punish the defense, using a hitherto-unmentioned procedural rule [9.1.01] of Santa Cruz court (allowing the judge to "order" a transcript).

Is Symons' message "record the police at your own peril; if the cops don't get you, the courts will make you pay"?

Perhaps she has been reading about herself on-line and not liking what she reads...
by bobby northern
Tuesday May 19th, 2009 7:23 PM
if you are so by their rules and beat them at their own game? or are you scared you can't win? would you rather complain or beat them? come on bobert, show the system u can beat them at thier own game with their rules!
by Robert Norse
Tuesday May 19th, 2009 10:05 PM
This "justice" game, of course, is rigged, specifically against poor people.

My point is that Symons penalizes poor people (particularly homeless people fighting infraction harassment tickets from police).

Requiring a costly written transcript of an audio tape from someone trying to document police abuse is a significant burden on someone who's gotten, say, a sleeping ticket, or been intimidated into leaving a public area.

Typically, there's no prosecutor in infraction cases, simply testimony from the cops.

In my case, in spite of extensive discovery and significant legal issues, the city attorney didn't bothered to come in. As I mention in the article above, Symons is improperly playing the role of prosecutor. And apparently using her powers as judge to further burden the defense.

But burdening the defense is a significant deterrent to others to introduce audio recordings, requiring them to spend time and resources they may not have engaging in unnecessary transcript creation. It's like requiring people who can't find a legal place to sleep to write out motions on legal paper.

The whole point of the Metro confrontation was to establish that cops don't have the right to drive poor people away from public places like the Metro on their own whim. Similarly judges shouldn't be able to deny people at least the ghost of a fair trial by heaping unnecessary and burdensome requirements that encourage them to give up in exhaustion.
by Bruce Holloway
Monday May 25th, 2009 8:15 PM
You don't have to pay for a transcript -- just do your own. This isn't like when you need a transcript of a court hearing and have to pay the court reporter for it. You weren't forced to enter any evidence in your defense, but since you chose to introduce a recording, the rule says to provide a transcript. You can even add a few amusing touches like "(religious proselytizing on loudspeakers)" or "(expletive deleted)". In a usual trial, the judge would order both parties to agree on a transcript, but in this case there seems to be no prosecutor. Whatever you provide is an initial offer -- the judge might require changes after listening to the recording.

In the same vicinity of the local rules of court, it says a court session may not be recorded without prior written permission. So the next time you want to record one, maybe write to the judge at least a week in advance.
by Norse
Tuesday May 26th, 2009 6:12 PM
Transcript of recording taken at 2:25pm at the Metro Center.
by Norse
Tuesday May 26th, 2009 6:49 PM

• Well, it is now about 2:25 in front of Chianti’s at the corner of Capgard and Pacific on Sunday, the 2nd of November. I'm talking with . . .

• Jack.

• And [inaudible]

• And you guys just came up to me with a concern about the nature of the holy word coming out of the Metro Center.

• [inaudible] 5-0, and commentary in between.

• Being blasted out on loudspeakers?

• [inaudible] blasted out of a loudspeaker. Christian radio.

• And you then went up to a security guard, whose name was?

• [screaming]

• I will not be politically correct and eliminate that from the tape, but mind your language, my son.

• We’re all niggers of one sort or another, I can tell you that right now. Some of us are stuck with it, because of our skin color. In any case, what happened when you spoke to this man.

• Well, he said that we don’t have to be there, we could leave, which we did.

• And what did the man look like?

• A big, fat nigger.

• And how would you describe him?

• He was a security guard. Who seemed like he had nothing to do with any . . .

• Tall, short, [inaudible].

• He was huge.

• [inaudible] he works out with weights and talks [inaudible] [overlapping].

• Your man is ruining your cred here with the progressive community. Tom, Tom. Mind your tongue, son. So did you ask the guard who his superior was, and if you didn’t, are you interested in going back and doing that?

• Yeah. Yes, we did. He had no answer. Repeating if we don’t like it, we can leave.

• I see. But he didn’t attempt to make you leave, right?

• No.

• No.

• No.

• No, the [inaudible].

• Well, thank you for the update. I think you’re probably right. I think what you need to do is – well, I’ll just walk by and I’ll document it by putting a little on the tape recorder.

• Yeah, that’d be great. [inaudible]

• So I am approaching the Metro Center. It’s about 2:30, a little bit before. And you can hear the sounds of the Metro speakers.

• Loudspeaker: “But, you know, God always works in shadows and types, and that’s what we saw with the [inaudible], that . . .

• OK, I'm standing in front of the doors of the Metro Center. There’s a speaker on one side of the door. I think there’s another one on the other side.

• Loudspeaker: “Therefore, this forgiveness, this compassion was a [inaudible].

• Okie, dokie. I'm now walking in through the Metro, past the Chinese restaurant, over to chat with the security guard. Which is not actually [inaudible] where the bus stop is, but I guess I’ll ask him. Hey there, Guy, how’s it going?

• [inaudible], how are you doing?

• Oh, not bad. I got [inaudible] complaints about the religious propaganda blasting out. I know it’s your responsibility, but . . .

• [inaudible]

• Do you know who’s in charge of the [inaudible]?

• There’s [inaudible] one here right now. You can make your complaint tomorrow morning between the hours of 8:00 and 4:00 [inaudible].

• And is it . . .

• [inaudible]

• Oh, for sure, I can. You bet. What’s your name, by the way? What’s your name?

• I can’t talk to you while you got the recorder on.

• Hey, hey. Hey, you’re – if you don’t want to identify who you are, I’ll be happy to pursue you until you do, man.

• [inaudible]

• Hey, look. You’re responsible for this area, man.

• [inaudible] police escort.

• Hey, get a police escort. Be my guest. I'm really just asking you a simple question. I mean as far as I'm concerned, this kind of religious propaganda is not appropriate, but you know that. So I'm just trying to find out who I should talk to about it.

• [inaudible]

• Give me your name.

• [inaudible]

• Give me your superior’s name. Tell me who you work for.

• [inaudible]

• OK, so you’re refusing to give me your name and your superior’s name. Who do you work for? You have National Securities Industry written on you. You’re a tall man, I would say about 6’5”. You’re African American. Fairly chunky, no offense meant. And, again, I make one more request before I file a complaint with your organization tomorrow. I don’t think you want to do that, do you? And you’re going into the elevator to get away. See you later. How’s it going? I'm here in the little store inside – what’s the name of your store here?

• Metro Market.

• And you said you – what’s your first name?

• Yassir.

• And, Yassir, you said a number of people have mentioned this Christian speechifying or the stuff that’s being broadcast over the speakers out front.

• Yes.

• And how many people, would you say, have spoken to you about it with some concerns?

• Two or three.

• And how many customers would you say you had all day?

• I, I . . .

• A pretty large number, right?

• Yeah.

• Maybe 30 or 40 or . . .

• Probably. But it didn’t happen today. It’s been happening for the past coupla days.

• So this has been the same Christian propaganda for the last few days?

• Well, I'm not – I don’t hear nothing inside . . .

• You can’t hear anything in this store, no.

• Yes, but they’ve been complaining about what’s been being broadcasted on the stereos.

• Interesting. Do we know where that comes from? I mean you say usually there’s a person here, but since this Sunday, you can’t really talk to an employee, right?

• Right. Probably tomorrow by Monday.

• Thank you. Have a good day. And here again, as we’re outside is what we’re hearing.

• Loudspeaker: [inaudible] And God calls that accountability the linkage now, marriage. Again, Romans VII, knowing our brethren [inaudible] knows a law that [inaudible] fall under this condemnation. How does the law have dominion over the man as long as he liveth or the woman. We have a woman. Like we do in Numbers V. We had a wife or a woman there. We had a husband there.

• Metro Supervisor 807, at least that’s what’s on his vehicle, who has just pulled up, and I’ll try to find out what, in fact, is – who’s responsible for this. Apparently it’s been going on for, if the individual we just spoke to is accurate, it’s been going on for a couple of days.

• Loudspeaker: [inaudible] husband [inaudible] alive or dead. Alive enough to at least [inaudible]. [inaudible] another man, she shall be called an adulterer. Very similar, isn’t it? To Numbers V.

• So I’ll go ask this fellow. Hey, there. How’s it going?

• OK, what’s up?

• Well, I'm just wondering. Who’s responsible for what comes over the speakers? I assume you guys aren’t particularly.

• We are. Why? What’s going on?

• Well, . . .

• Is something that’s [inaudible] or bothering you or [inaudible].

• The volume is OK. It’s religious information that would be appropriate in a church or on the street [inaudible] I would think so, but not from a loudspeaker which is government funded. That’s my concern.

• Well, what they did is they made an effort to put music out there . . .

• That would disperse the crowd.

• No, no, no. Well, they thought that classical music would not be something that kids that normally accumulate down there like.

• Right.

• So this is supposed to be classical, but it was not . . .

• Have a listen [inaudible]

• Loudspeaker: [inaudible] becomes the wife of God [inaudible] wife of God.

• I’ll see what I can do.

• Thank you [inaudible].

• It’s probably a mistake. What’s your name?

• My name is Ed Nelson.

• Robert, Ed, and I appreciate – I'm with Free Radio, so I'm just doing some investigating.

• OK. OK. Well, I'm gonna check it out and see what I can do.

• Thank you. One last thing. Do you have any connection with the security guards [inaudible]

• That’s who I'm calling right now.

• OK, because I – the only thing I would also request is if a security guard is requested to say who he is that he do so. I asked who he was and who his supervisor was, and he wouldn’t tell me. So I would . . .

• He probably wanted to know why you wanted to know.

• Sure.

• [inaudible] specific [inaudible].

• Well, he knew. I told him.

• Oh, you did?

• Yeah. I said [inaudible] concerned about this. He said, “I'm not gonna tell you.” He didn’t want to be recorded. But I said, “Look, you know, . . .”

• Am I being recorded right now?

• Yes.

• You know, you should always tell people [inaudible] . . .

• Well, it is out. I'm with the radio, you remember you heard me say that?

• That doesn’t . . . Hey, look. I worked with the radio for eight years, and I . . . [inaudible] can I meet you in the Greyhound lot please? And I don’t think everybody I talked to when I was in radio would assume that I was recording them when I talked to them.

• That’s correct. I am, in fact, but you understand, I already had a problem with another individual that wouldn’t identify who he was and, therefore, it was important for me for my own safety to record what goes on, because you’re in a position of some authority.

• Mm hmm.

• And it would be my account against yours if there’s a problem. So it’s not really a personal – I'm not trying to be, you know, [inaudible]

• Do you have any control over that?

• Yeah. And [inaudible] on and off.

• On and off? Is the station fixed?

• He said yeah.

• That’s what he said?

• Uh huh.

• OK. Let me talk to you in a sec.

• OK.

• Thank you both.

• [inaudible]

• And the only thing I ask is that there be identification if you’re talking to somebody. I just want to know who I'm talking to, that’s all. So apparently the problem is going to be resolved one way or the other, maybe, but I'm too hungry to say. OK, well, it’s about 3:35. I'm at the Metro Center front entrance on Pacific Avenue. A tall, black National Security Agency, that’s the name of his private agency. I don’t think he’s with the real NSA, but just came by and told the two guys that were sitting nearby with backpacks to leave. And I'm just talking to my friend, Jack. We were chatting about old times, so to speak. But, Jack, you said you recently had an experience here at the Metro, which you, too, were approached by a security guard.

• Yeah, it was actually a supervisor for the Metro.

• What did he look like?

• I don’t know. He looked [inaudible] . . .

• African American, white?

• He looked authoritarian.

• White, black, green?

• He was a white guy.

• Mm hmm. I knew you talked to a black supervisor today.

• [inaudible] yourself. He came over when I was waiting for a bus and asked me what bus I was waiting for, and I just told him one that hadn’t come yet. And, fortunately, they didn’t do anything. But . . .

• And you were afraid . . .

• He was definitely being a – he was definitely being pushy about – he wasn’t asking me why I was there, but that was what his intent was.

• And how long did he stay there and keep an eye on you?

• Only probably about 5 minutes after that. He was sitting there for about 10 minutes after he asked me, and then probably 5 minutes after that.

• Maybe he just liked your looks.

• Maybe so. He might have actually wanted to give me a ride somewhere.

• What a sweetie!

• [laughs]

• You don’t think so.

• Well, you know . . .

• The paranoid dog that you are.

• [laughs] Exactly. Yeah. If they’ve got handcuffs, I'm not, no, I ain’t going there.

• But I notice there’s no Christian sermonizing coming out of the speaker.

• No, [inaudible]

• [inaudible] ask these guys [inaudible]. Hey, I'm with Free Radio. Radio Libre. [Spanish]

• [Spanish]

• Well, good luck. [inaudible] I'm not sure. How are you doing, hombre?

• I'm doing all right. Just another day.

• Any hassles.

• Nope.

• We’re just very cheerful today, aren’t we?

• We’re trying. We’re trying.

• What’s your name, [inaudible] man?

• Les.

• Hey, Les. Any incidents on the street you want to report?

• Nothing right at this moment. It’s actually really calm.

• Cool.

• [inaudible] Wallace busted a bunch of guys out of the clubhouse over at Barbie (?) West at like 8:30 the other night when it was raining.

• What were they doing?

• Sleeping.

• How many were there?

• Several. That’s all I know.

• And you heard second-hand, or you were there?

• [inaudible] Second-hand. Second-hand.

• I can concur. I heard the same thing. I heard that Wallace went out and kicked a lot of people out.

• Were they people inside a building, under a lean-to?

• Under an awning.

• Yep.

• Oh, that’s very public-minded of him. I mean it could cause real damage to that awning by standing underneath it.

• Oh, yeah. Like maybe they couldn’t get any sleep.

• Uh huh. Which I think is wrong. I think everybody in Santa Cruz County should be able to sleep.

• [inaudible] to be moved?

• What’s your name?

• Uh. Is that a recording thingie?

• It sure is.

• [inaudible] why you have that?

• Well, you’re making – you’re requesting me to leave a public space open to the public.

• Is that a [inaudible].

• Oh, it’s not – no, it’s a Transit Authority [inaudible].

• [inaudible] look that up and come back and talk to me?

• No. But if you want to make a false – if you want to make a false arrest, please. Be my guess. Hey, I'd love it. But give me your name, please.

• [laughs]

• Not interested apparently. And here’s another individual who refuses to identify himself. I want you to notice he has no identification on his person, so you can’t see who he is, except his uniform. So if he makes a mistake, all you can see is the security on his hat.

• [inaudible]

• No, you’re required to identify yourself. He’s now moving along two other individuals who are harmless, simply standing nearby, and is now walk – again, last change to identify yourself. All right, this is a man of about 6 feet, Latino, chunky, refuses to identify himself. Fair enough.

• I love it.

• Come back. Please.

• I want to find out about this private property thing.

• Actually it’s not private property if it’s County transit.

• I know. [inaudible]

• We have a right here, and if we’re going to catch a bus for [inaudible] I don’t see anything wrong with hanging out. We’re not smoking [overlapping]. At least I'm not.

• No, if he wants to request people not smoke, I can appreciate that.

• Yeah.

• I suppose there might even be a law against sitting near a building, but he certainly has no right to [overlapping, inaudible].

• It’s an ordinance. Definitely not a law. It’s an ordinance.

• Even an ordinance. There’s no ordinance says you can’t be at the bus station.

• That’s right.

• But, anyway, he left, so . ..

• Yeah, it’s fine.

• [inaudible] guy with a tape recorder. [inaudible] oh, no, [inaudible]. [laughter] We know who that guy is. [laughs]

• So you’re reporting on – both of you were saying there was a report of Ranger Wallace harassing poor people.

• [inaudible] Harvey West by the clubhouse right there.

• And what night was that?

• That was [overlapping] about two nights ago, yeah.

• First rainy night.

• Oh, boy, was it raining. It wasn’t raining. It looked like Niagara Falls.

• Really?

• Yeah. One of us out here got wet that night.

• Anybody get sick?

• I’ve heard a couple people were saying they were starting to catch a cold.

• Mm hmm. Well, at least the sun came out, and we got some sunshine now.

• And we had Dennis over [inaudible] feeding today. So.

• Oh, that’s good. How many people showed up?

• I'd say at least 150.

• And did he have any reports that you know of of people being otherwise harassed during this rainy season?

• No, I haven’t.

• What’s the word on the armory opening?

• The 15th.

• And . . .

• I thought for sure they would at least open it, because it was raining and downpouring like that. See, when Marcus was over there, he would do that for us. But since he passed away . . .

• No, they can’t open up there. That’s a . . .

• Oh, yeah, Marcus used to do it all the time when it was raining. Yeah, he would let us stay [overlapping, inaudible]

• [inaudible] security guard again. What’s your name, sir? What’s your name? What’s your name, sir?

• [inaudible]

• What is your name, sir? I again repeat the question. What is your name?

• I'm the one asking the questions.

• No, no, no. You’re a man who approached me in a uniform, and you’re employed here. What is your name?

• What is your name?

• There you go. See?

• I'm a private citizen. You’re not. You’re trying to give me an order. Now, what is your name, sir?

• I'm gonna ask you nicely one more time. I'm gonna ask you to leave the property, and I'm gonna [inaudible].

• OK, do – please. I feel I have a right to be here. I'm in essence waiting for a bus. You know what I mean, jelly bean?

• I'm gonna ask you . . .

• And I'm telling you. So leave me alone. No, I have a right to record what you say. You are approaching me.

• [inaudible]

• No, you’re in public. You have no expectation of privacy. Go make your phone call, please. Go make your phone call. But please give your name next time. If you’re not afraid and you’re doing something that’s legal, you shouldn’t be afraid to give your name.

• Yeah, clearly. Yeah.

• [inaudible] back to what we were saying.

• Right.

• What were we talking about?

• We were discussing, I guess, we had Ranger Wallace, and then we also had . . .

• No, we were talking about the armory [inaudible].

• Oh, the armory opening on the 15th.

• There’s a squad car driving by right now. Call him over. Come on, Mr. Security Guard who won’t give his name. He’s right here. Come on back. Or stop harassing people down here, please. Stop harassing the people who are trying to use the public spaces. That’s what you’re doing. Please stop doing that. Hey. Or give your name and give your supervisor’s name. One of the two. Maybe all three.

• Yeah.

• [inaudible]

• Yes, I sure do, Hon.

• And let me get my camera out so we can take a picture of this fine gentleman.

• Yeah, really.

• Since he refuses to identify himself.

• So what is your problem, sir?

• I just don’t want to be harassed, and I want to know who I'm talking to if somebody does.

• We [inaudible] have to have a problem just ‘cause we’re standing here.

• We’re standing talking. You are creating the problem. [inaudible, overlapping] Can you hold my coat for a minute, please. [overlapping, inaudible] If I ask you nicely to get down on your knees and start groveling, if I ask you nicely to go back to your house, what would you say to me? You’d say, “Go away. Stop bothering me.”

• Exactly. [overlapping]

• [inaudible] say to you.

• [overlapping]

• This is America. It’s free here.

• The City owns this, right? Or the County?

• No, this is private property.

• Who owns it then?

• Do you want me to show you the picture of the guy?

• Well, the county uses it. And anybody can come and go, right? [overlap]

• You have the right to refuse that.

• No, you don’t.

• You don’t have the right to refuse that.

• And the fact that I won’t leave [inaudible]

• [overlapping] It’s not a private enterprise. [inaudible] It’s not a private enterprise. [inaudible] It’s a government enterprise.

• [inaudible] private property [inaudible] I'm trying to do my job here.

• I know you’re trying to do your job. I understand, but I think part of your job is saying who you are and who your boss is. I mean it really is.

• [inaudible] I don’t feel like, you know [inaudible]

• It’s not right that you come out here [inaudible]

• But the problem is you’re approaching us. You’re approaching groups of people and telling us to leave. We’re saying, “No, this is open to the public,” you know?

• Right.

• This property is open to the public.

• I'm asking you not to do this, and you guys are acting like rebellious [inaudible]

• I think you don’t have any leg to stand on is what I . . .

• Look, if somebody told you that you couldn’t do certain things that you feel you’ve got a right to do, you might listen, but you’d make a decision. You’d say, “Look, look, Officer, I think you’re wrong.” And I'm not trying to be mean to you. I'm not trying to single you out personally, but I tell you, when I ask you again for your name, and who you work for in terms of your superior.

• [inaudible] did he ask you to leave?

• No.

• Did you ask him to like turn off the radio or something like that?

• Yeah. And he did. Finally. First, he refused. He refused to give his name. I got his superior, and his superior ordered him to turn off the radio.

• Oh, OK.

• And did. That’s what happened, as I understand it.

• [inaudible]

• Well, it’s, it’s, you know, if you’re in a church, you can get some Christian propaganda.

• [inaudible]

• [inaudible] take a look. I haven’t heard it yet, but I’ll read this before I go to the polls.

• [inaudible] it won’t take away your right to eat meat. It just means the animal . ..

• Will be treated better. Yeah, I’m sympathetic to it. You know? I agree. [inaudible]

• I mean [inaudible] at all. Make them [inaudible].

• [inaudible]

• Thank you.

• Right. You know, what I'm going to do, and again you’re refusing . ..

• Dan. [inaudible]

• Call you Dan. Will they know you by the name Dan, if I say to your superior, “A man named Dan spoke to me,” will they know who I'm talking about? Is that an accurate name?

• Yeah.

• That’s an accurate name?

• [inaudible]

• I’ll give you my card if you want my card.

• [inaudible]

• Lest I be accused of littering. And I don’t mind you having my card. In fact, if you have something you want to talk about, I do a radio show on this stuff. Here.

• What radio show?

• It’s called [inaudible] Broadside. It’s on Free Radio Santa Cruz.

• Over there by the library?

• No, down there.

• Down where?

• Down Laurel Street.

• [inaudible] station [inaudible].

• It’s a pirate radio station. Pirate radio station? Underground radio station?

• Rrrr.

• Yeah, we’ve been going for about, since 1995, so we’ve been going for a while.

• Way a while.

• Yeah. we’ve been around for a while. So it’s nothing personal to you, Dan.

• [inaudible] ask you to move on, from here. We do this to everybody.

• I know, and I don’t think it should be done. And I realize you’re told to do it. I'm not trying to be mean to you. What I'm saying to you is the people who are telling you to do this are putting you in a position of some peril, because if you try to make an arrest of me, I think you would find yourself in trouble. I mean I’ll be happy to – if you want to arrest me, I’ll go right with you right now.

• Uh huh.

• But that would be a mistake, you know, because – no, I just want to use the public space here. That’s what I'm doing. That’s all.

• Why [inaudible] it’s a whole different subject matter you’re switching. You’re kinda like [inaudible] . . .

• [Overlapping] Well, now, how is it a different subject?

• Well, you’re a lot more, you know, with me now.

• Well [inaudible]

• [inaudible] against me right now.

• It’s not that I'm against you. I'm against the idea that a person in a uniform comes up and tells us to leave a public space. He won’t say who he is, threatens to call the police.

• I did.

• Calls the police. And, you see, they’re not being too responsive. Maybe they have other things they’re doing. Who knows? Yeah, but I mean you can give them my card. You can tell them that, you know, they can talk . . .

• [inaudible]

• I'm not going to stay here all day. I'm – when we’re finished talking, I’ll leave. But, you know, I’ll be here for . . .

• [inaudible] with me? If I leave, you leave?

• Well, I mean I was talking to somebody else before that. I mean in a way you kind of made it an issue, so you kind of, you know, are encouraging me not to leave. That’s the problem, you know?

• Well, that’s [inaudible] I gotta watch what I do [inaudible].

• Well, yeah. You know, I mean if somebody says, “You can’t eat that cake,” you say, “Wait a minute. Yes, I can.”

• Exactly.

• It’s a silly thing. But there it is. You know how that is, Dan?

• [inaudible] right?

• No. I wasn’t.

• Where were you born and raised?

• I was born in Oregon. How about yourself?

• Watsonville.

• Watsonville. Yeah. And how are things in Watsonville in terms of housing? I hear that things are getting kinda short over there for at least some folks. Yeah. So it’s now about 10 to 4:00. That was a conversation with Dan, or maybe his name isn’t Dan. It’s hard to tell for sure.

• Or something like that.

• Now, what’s your name, sir?

• Les.

• And we’re talking also with . . .

• Jack.

• Yeah.

• So you’re . . .

• A [inaudible] walked into a bar. No. [laughs]

• But I can assure you that you’re – yeah.

• [inaudible] catching the bus? Or were you just telling me that?

• Well, let me put it this way. I think I'm using the space legitimately. I may, in fact, be catching a bus.

• OK, so that’s [inaudible].

• ‘Cause I don’t want to [inaudible] from catching the bus.

• I don’t think – unless I'm engaging in illegal activity, I don’t want to see you kicking anybody out of here. That’s my feeling. And I know you’ve been given other instructions.

• [inaudible] I didn’t kick you out. I just asked you to move [inaudible].

• You didn’t tell me where you wanted me to move.

• I asked you to move from there. Anywhere else [inaudible] there [inaudible].

• Is there a problem with my standing right here? How is there a problem?

• You’re blocking that sign, and that’s one of the policies [inaudible]

• I'm blocking the sign.

• Right.

• That was me.

• [inaudible] How are you doing there, Officer Albert?

• All right. What’s wrong?

• [inaudible] move along, and [inaudible] approached me with a . . .

• Tape recorder.

• . . . tape recorder and taking pictures of me when I asked him not to, and asking me [inaudible] he’s gonna have to leave, and the gentleman over there was smoking cigarettes, and [inaudible] him he can’t smoke cigarettes [inaudible].

• No, I put the cigarette out.

• So I asked him to leave, [inaudible].

• Is there a problem with [inaudible] leaving the property. It’s open to the public. I don’t think I should have to leave the property.

• This is owned by the Metro. If they want you to leave the property, you have to . . .

• I'm waiting for a bus. They’ve got no right to get me to leave the property.

• Yes, they do.

• Oh, really?

• If you don’t leave the property, you’re probably gonna get [inaudible] . . .

• Trespassing or?

• Trespassing.

• OK, so it comes down to that.

• Can you show me the Code section, I might be [inaudible] do you gotta get a copy of the Code section?

• I'm not gonna give you a copy of the Code section. You can look it up on your [inaudible]. Would you like to leave, or do we have to go through it the hard way?

• I'm thinking about it.

• OK. Well, you have like 30 seconds to [inaudible].

• Well, it depends. I want to make sure that I walk back on this property, I don’t get further harassed just because the security guard doesn’t like the way I look. I don’t think it’s appropriate.

• It’s their property. They have the right to refuse service to anyone that . . .

• This is funded by the public, this Metro Center. You know that. We pay taxes for this, so it’s partially publicly owned. I don’t think . . .

• Do you have ID on your, Mr. Norse?

• My name is Robert Norse, and I'm – that’s my identification.

• Do you have any kind of paper ID or identification?

• You don’t believe I’m who I say I am?

• No, but I need to get information from you.

• I can give you the information, under penalty of perjury, sure.

• [inaudible]

• I know how to spell his name. I [inaudible] his birthday or ID number and all that kind of stuff. Do you have all that with you?

• Yeah, I can give you all that.

• Can I have that now?

• Sure. Why don’t we step into the sunshine? I'm getting a little chilly out here. OK. So it’s Robert Norse [spells].

• What’s your date of birth?

• And the date of birth is May 30th, 1947.

• Do you know your ID number?

• I don’t know my ID number, but you have it in your computer system, I'm pretty sure.

• Yeah, but I don’t have a computer with me.

• Right, but I mean it’s . . .

• So we can book it [inaudible].

• I'm sure you’ll be able to find it. Hey, how’s it goin’? Getting arrested.

• What’s your local address or mailing address?

• 309 Cedar. DMV 14B.

• 14B?

• I'm [inaudible] to celebrate now. He wanted me to hold onto his coat [inaudible].

• Did you say 14B?

• Yes.

• [inaudible]

• So that’s part of the Metro property. Can you wait over here, off the property? [inaudible] So, Officer Albert, you told me that these security guards have absolute discretion [inaudible]. That’s amazing if that’s true.

• [inaudible] Norse, Nor Sam Edward. [inaudible] 3047. Is that your name that your [inaudible] ID is on?

• My [inaudible] is under Robert Norse Kahn, but I take tickets under both names, and there is no attempt to evade justice here, as you can see. I prefer Norse. That’s the name I normally use. California ID is under Kahn [spells]. How’s it goin’?

• [inaudible]

• Under arrest.

• Eyes are hazel?

• Brown, dark brown.

• 5-11, 6 feet?

• That’s about right. How’s it goin’?

• [inaudible] is Robert Norse getting a ticket?

• I'm getting a ticket.

• We’re gonna hear about this [inaudible] forever.

• I'm sure you will.

• I'm gonna say without hopefully offending you. 180, 185?

• Oh! 230.

• Oh, really?

• That’s pretty sweet of you. [laughs] I mean very flattering. So it’s about 5 to 4:00, and we have Officer Albert and – who’s swearing out the complaint? Is that you or the . . .

• The agent of the property.

• What’s his name?

• [inaudible]

• I did. He isn’t telling me.

• OK, well, it’ll be on the ticket.

• Good. Please put it legibly on the ticket so I can contact his superior. And yours.

• [inaudible] ID number. [inaudible]

• [inaudible] thank you.

• [inaudible]

• So the officer’s writing a ticket, and the individual filing the complaint is standing nearby. [inaudible]

• [inaudible] citation for refusing to [inaudible] for remaining on his property after being asked to leave. [inaudible]

• And even though I have the right to use the bus and take the bus?

• Like any other business. If they don’t want someone on their business for whatever reason, they have a right to have you off the property. If you don’t like it, you can take it up with their management. But right now you’re in violation of the trespassing [inaudible] so I'm going to give you a citation for it. If you can sign in the red box. [inaudible] you’re not admitting guilt. Just promising the contact the court within 30 days [inaudible].

• Do you have a sergeant who’s on duty right now?

• Yes, we always have a sergeant.

• Who is it?

• Right now it’s Sergeant Swan (?).

• I'd like to speak to him. Then I'd be happy to sign the ticket after I’ve spoken with him.

• You don’t want to sign a ticket [inaudible].

• I'm willing to do that after I’ve spoken with the sergeant. I just want to make sure we’re all on the up and up. No offense to you, Officer Albert.

• [inaudible] taking up a lot of unnecessary time.

• I am not the one who’s doing that. I'm just trying to stand here and talk to people, that’s all. I'm getting harassed as far as I'm concerned.

• [inaudible] 10107 [inaudible]

• Is that any of your affair?

• I'd be [inaudible] help you out with [inaudible].

• [inaudible]

• Well, I appreciate it. [inaudible] from your ride, let me know. But you’re not a bus driver, are you?

• [inaudible] Norse would like to speak with you before he signs a citation.

• [inaudible]

• That’s a good question.

• [inaudible]

• What’s that?

• [inaudible]

• Oh, it’s a possibility. [inaudible] I don’t think you – I think you should be telling this man not to sign a citation, it’s a waste of time. So in essence I think you’re wasting my time, Officer Albert, and your sergeant’s.

• [inaudible] If you would have left, this would have never happened, right?

• You know, it’s nothing personal, but it shouldn’t be true that if we don’t have the best relationship with each other, that’s a basis for your ordering me away from a public facility. That’s nonsense, man.

• You’re taking it way too far. I'm telling you to [inaudible] and you never [inaudible].

• You didn’t mention the word “sign”; you mentioned the word “property” when you came up to me.

• [inaudible]

• It’s on tape if you want to hear it again. You know, we can listen to it when it comes up. The first time you mentioned the sign is when this police officer showed up.

• You [inaudible] the other officer [inaudible] right next to him. He asked you to move along.

• Yes. Move along. Now, - well, moving – I'm – if I tell you to move along, you’re not required to move along. You have to have a reason. I have to be engaged in some kind of criminal behavior. I mean I'm not engaging in any criminal behavior. It seems to me that this is a form of criminal behavior and intimidation. That’s what it seems to me. I mean we have guys with guns and badges telling people not to use public spaces when there’s no harm happening here.

• [inaudible] waste my time, is that what you’re saying?

• I'm saying you’re wasting our time, the public’s time, is what I'm saying. How’s it goin’?

• [inaudible]

• Hey, Sergeant, no, I'm [inaudible]. How it goin’?

• How are you?

• I'm good. I'm good. You didn’t call for backup, did you?

• No. [inaudible]

• How are you doing, Officer [inaudible]?

• Good. For some reason you’re not signing the ticket today?

• Well, I'm just trying to find out clearly what my status is here. I want to be able to walk into the Metro and use the bus, and talk to somebody who’s using the bus, and purchase things here. And if an individual doesn’t like my manner, because apparently Dan didn’t like my manner, if that’s Dan’s name. Eventually he said what his name was. Then . . .

• [inaudible] we’re in the middle of something here. [inaudible] So are we going to be on the radio?

• You are going to be on the radio?

• [inaudible]

• It’s on the card. You have to read the small print, but you’ll find it there. So how did your Halloween go, Officer [inaudible]?

• Very busy [inaudible].

• How many citations did you have to issue?

• I [inaudible] issued one citation.

• By the way, I'm recording, you probably know.

• [inaudible] citations.

• What was the nature of the arrest and citation?

• Oh, there were various things, mostly intoxication.

• Now what about the general record throughout the evening? Did you get a sense of how many people arrested, now many people were cited? It was pretty quiet. We did a cop watch, and there wasn’t much action [inaudible] people were pretty mellow. The police were pretty mellow. Pretty well behaved. The ones I saw. [inaudible]

• [inaudible] court [inaudible].

• Well, it’s nothing personal, Dan. I just think we should be able to use this area without harassment, that’s all. And this is harassment. You know, police officers. No offense to you, Officer.

• What we do [inaudible] some people come [inaudible] tourists who don’t know what’s going on, they look at the sign and they’re able to recognize [inaudible].

• Well, you can say, you know [inaudible] . . .

• You’re putting yourself [inaudible].

• But there are no tourists coming up here right now.

• You’re putting yourself in front of everybody else.

• No, I'm putting the people that you’re harassed above the paranoia of certain merchants, that’s all.

• [inaudible] question for you.

• In other words, I don’t think, I don’t think you’ve been given good instructions . . .
• [inaudible]

• I mean if you came up and said, “I wonder if you’d move away from the sign because I think you’re blocking the sign,” I might say OK. But you didn’t say that. And – no, you didn’t. I mean I might have done it, I might not have. I might have taken offense, I don’t know. But the fact is it’s not really a relevant consideration. Your job is to move along people who look undesirable to you. And as far as I'm concerned, that’s a bad thing to be doing. You’re harassing people. You’re making them feel like less than human.

• Another guy was telling me already, and he explained it to me you’ve got to move along, I expect you to know when you have to move along. [inaudible] second time [inaudible] you know, is that you should have this down by [inaudible].

• I'm sorry that he sends you to do his dirty work. If he wants me to move along, he can come and tell me himself and he can sign the citation, and he can go to court. I mean why shouldn’t he take the responsibility? That’s – you know, I would encourage you to forget it. Man, just say do your own dirty work, you know? Actually I am moving along because I'm getting tired and the sun’s setting. But I mean it’s a matter of principle too. I mean you . . .

• Hey, Sergeant?

• Hello, Robert, how are you doing today?

• I’m good. I was conversing with someone here, and, you know, at the bus stop.

• OK.

• [inaudible] waiting for a bus, you know, and I was approached by several security guards.

• OK.

• And they said, “You can’t be on the property.” And I said, “What?” I haven’t done anything wrong. [inaudible]

• I heard that [inaudible] [sirens].

• Oh, boy. [inaudible]

• OK.

• So I'm trying to find out if you’re telling the – the officers, [inaudible] have absolute discretion to move anybody they want for any reason whatsoever.

• That we’re doing what? I'm sorry. [inaudible] again.

• [inaudible] the security guards here have absolute discretion to tell anyone to leave for any reason that they want?

• Don’t know.

• OK. [inaudible] That’s what I was calling to ask you.

• OK, I don’t know. I don’t know what the policy is.

• Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm wondering will the police department make arrests based on this. I mean, you know, if I want some to move along on the public sidewalk or – I regard this as – this is a quasi-public area, because it’s used for public services.

• And, and that’s your view. But if you want to press charges, then we’re gonna accept those charges, especially if you’ve been asked to leave and you have refused to do so. So we’re gonna [inaudible] arrest.

• Let me ponder this. Well, what’s likely to happen is that there’ll be a protest here at the Metro. I’ll be bringing a bunch of people in with a political table and with fliers, and you can then tell us to leave, and we’ll see what happens then. So that’s what I'm likely to do. So I'm . . .

• [inaudible]

• I hear you.

• OK. I'm sorry.

• No, that’s OK. Anything else before I leave? I’ve gotta go deal with this . . .

• Yeah, I hear you.

• [inaudible] situation everything so.

• You’re still [inaudible] take me to a magistrate.

• Absolutely, ‘cause this is a Sunday.

• I’ll be going to jail first.

• Yeah.

• Yeah. What are the hours on that?

• What do you mean?

• The hours – in other words, when will you take someone to a magistrate [inaudible] . ..

• Well, Monday through Friday we’ll [inaudible] 8:00 to 4:00 . ..

• 8:00 to 4:00. OK. So we’ll be back during a weekday to do that, unless you want to file the charges now, in which case we can do it now.

• What’s going on now?

• Well, in other words, in other words, you’re asking me to leave the property?

• [inaudible]

• You’ve already been cited. You need to [inaudible] citation.

• Oh, OK. Now, wait a minute. Are you carrying on a citation then?

• Yeah.

• You are.

• [inaudible]

• OK. [inaudible] All right. Let’s take a look. Dannie del Gapello. [inaudible]

• I left my name down [inaudible]. Do you want my name or?

• Yes. I want your name.

• [inaudible] want to give me another card?

• Sure. [inaudible] That’s it.

• [cell phone rings] Hello.

• If you can, write your superior’s name too.

• [inaudible]

• That’s great. So we can let him know when we’re coming with a table and fliers and [inaudible] the whole police force and we can have a ridiculous charade down here for non good reason whatsoever.

• [inaudible]

• [inaudible]

• Hello. So it’s about 4:10. Sergeant [inaudible] is trying to take off, and I'm trying to finish this up. Officer Albert is waiting. [inaudible]

• [inaudible] OK?

• Thank you.

• [inaudible] Very serious situation.

• [inaudible] give your undivided attention.

• For what?

• This is trivial nonsense. It’s based upon security guards asserting authority in a situation that they don’t need to assert any authority.

• [inaudible] that’s [inaudible]

• Thank you, Dan.

• You want to wait over there and [inaudible] talk to him [inaudible].

• No, no, I'm good. What I’ll do is I will call him before – I’ll let him know that, you know, coming to [inaudible] property.

• [inaudible]

• Sure, if you want me to – is he on the property, and is it convenient?

• I gave him a call. He’s on his way.

• OK. Again, it’s getting colder, and I'm getting colder, and the Sergeant’s getting impatient [inaudible].

• Robert?

• [inaudible] impatient if I were you. I mean . . .

• No, I’ve been doing this for 20 years.

• You know, your name came up on an old tape from 1990.

• 1990.

• [inaudible]

• It had to do with the bank at the end of Pacific Avenue. World Savings, the homeless table, the Post Office homeless table, remember the old days?

• Oh, yeah.

• Officer Albert.

• How did my name [inaudible] give me a ticket or something?

• You were accused of brutalizing one of the guys.

• [laughs] OK. Wow! That’s ancient history.

• That is ancient history.

• OK. Anything else from you, Robert?

• No, but thank you for coming.

• No problem. OK.

• Thank you, Officer Albert.

• You stay off the property the rest of the day?

• I would think so, unless the supervisor shows up.

• [inaudible]

• All right. Well – yeah, tell the supervisor that – he has – you have my card. Is that your pen?

• I don’t want to take your pen.

• Yep.

• Do you want to talk to one of these guys?

• [inaudible]

• Officer Albert, I think one of these two wanted to talk to you.

• [inaudible]

• Duh duh duh!

• [laughs]

• You have to drive though. Do you have a car?

• I’ll give you mine [inaudible] right there.

• Right, so just – I mentioned that I would have stayed and talk, but it’s getting colder, shadows are getting longer, and maybe I’ll be back another time.

• [inaudible]

• OK.

• OK.

• So it’s now about 4:20. And I'm standing off the property. Sergeant Swanick and Officer Albert having left, and Officer Albert having returned, Dan D., I'm not quite sure of his last name, but it is on the citation, has called the supervisor of the Metro to come and chat with me. He’s trying to be very amenable. But, of course, he’s the person who is doing the trespass citation, so – I didn’t . . .

End Side A, Begin Side B

• [inaudible] you have [inaudible] attraction [inaudible], you can’t use the bus today.

• I can’t use the bus today. OK, well, I may have to - [inaudible] owe the company for my taxi fare.

• Whose company?

• I don’t know. Whoever you work for.

• [inaudible]

• Yeah.

• [inaudible] work for a company.

• Well, you are working for a company, right?

• Yeah.

• Yeah. So how is National Securities Industries treating you?

• No problem.

• The tape recorder is on, and it’s here.

• No problem.

• Is it a big company? I mean do you have a lot of people there? How many people work there?

• [inaudible] they’re stationed in San Jose, and [inaudible] to what district [inaudible].

• [inaudible]

• [inaudible] they contract [inaudible] working together. [inaudible]

• What kind of benefits do you get with this company? No benefit?

• [inaudible] No nothing.

• The benefit of getting a lot of shit probably.

• Exactly. So what I'm saying, like I try to keep things mellow as much as I can, [inaudible] not enough [inaudible] deal with [inaudible] all the [inaudible].

• How many people cover this station? How many security guards have you got?

• 24 hours, station [inaudible] three shifts, three people per shift.

• 2 people per shift?

• Three people per shift.

• Was this a hard job for you to get, or was it fairly easy to fall into?

• Actually it was pretty hard. [inaudible] lot of experienced guards.

• And you’ve done this before or this is your first time?

• Done what?

• Security work.

• I done this a while.

• You seem pretty mellow for a security guard, Dan.

• I think it’s just [inaudible] can’t keep this [inaudible] I seen a lot of other guards, and I know that it’s just not right.

• It’ll give you ulcers too if you, you know, indigestion, reflux. I would imagine. I mean I don’t know for sure.

• [inaudible] I can’t [inaudible] things under control. It’s out of my hands. I got people doing drugs. That gives me ulcers.

• That’s the whole problem with the drug thing, you know? It shouldn’t be your responsibility either. If somebody is beating somebody up, though, there’s a reason for a security guard. If somebody is stealing property, there’s . . .

• But what I'm saying [inaudible] this individual was beating up on people.

• Then that’s a good reason to use your authority and your power.

• [inaudible] get him out of there.

• Well, how long have you worked here now?

• I want to say eight months, six months.

• And before that what kind of work did you have?

• Before this? [inaudible] same thing.

• Different city or?

• Different city, Salinas, Monterey. I work in [inaudible], you know, the east side of Salinas, all where the shootings are at. I worked there. So, like I said, I know how to . . .

• [overlap] How does this job compare with the Salinas security work you did?

• A lot more easy.

• You prefer this to the Salinas?

• That is correct.

• Now, your first language is Spanish.

• Yeah, you can say that.

• How are you – do you suffer any kind of discrimination, do you think, because of your race or your use of language here in Santa Cruz?

• Yeah, sometimes. You know, you get that. You know, they – like when you don’t pronounce a word correctly.

• You get snickered at and that sort of thing.

• And yeah.

• Sort of an I'm better than you deal.

• Yeah, it’s OK. They can believe what they want.

• Hey, how’s Black Rose?

• He’s right down here reciting poetry. And things are cool.

• That’s good. Are you separate or together?

• We’re together.

• OK, if I'm gonna hit on her, I gotta know what’s going on here, you know?

• Right. Well, you can hit on her. [laughter]

• Anybody can.

• [inaudible] so freakin’ in love with me, I don’t even like . . .

• Keep her away from the booze.

• Right. She had a grand mal seizure in Fosters Halloween night. The last one I went, the only one I went through with her I had to like mouth to mouth her. Which scared me to death. I mean . . .

• And that was because of alcohol use.

• Right.

• I shouldn’t be putting this on tape. Disregard everything you heard.

• Hi, I’m Robert. Who are you? Take care of yourself, man.

• OK, yeah.

• Can you turn that off, please.

• No. No, I gotta keep it on because your man here had me arrested for trespass.

• [inaudible]

• Well, I was given a trespass citation, which is in essence a noncustodial arrest.

• OK. You can’t tape somebody without the other person’s approval. I do not approve.

• Not unless – not unless you’re not in a public place.

• [inaudible]

• You have an expectation of privacy here, I'm sorry. You don’t. I mean I do this for the radio, so I do this for a living.

• OK. So what’s the issue? He wants to come back on the property?

• No. He says [inaudible] want to come back some other day with . . .

• My issue – what’s your name?

• My name is Maria.

• I'm Robert. How do you do?

• Yes, Robert. What’s your last name, Robert?

• Norse. And what’s your last name?

• Renados Boyce.

• Say that one more time. I'm sorry.

• Renados Boyce.

• Renados Boyce.

• Mm hmm.

• OK. Well, and your position is a supervisor?

• Yes. [inaudible]

• So my picture is being taken by – may I call you Maria?

• Yes, you may call me Maria.

• OK. I am concerned about the rights of the public to simply use the Metro to take buses and so forth, and not be harassed by security guards simply on a whim. Now, I’ve got nothing against Dan. He’s a nice guy. But apparently a prior guard didn’t like my attitude because I was talking to someone. He wanted me to move along. And I said, “No, I'm using the public space in an appropriate way. I'm not blocking anyone.”

• [inaudible] this company doesn’t know that. [inaudible] want to make sure that anything you want more questions.

• [inaudible] for you.

• Regarding this issue.

• Yeah.

• Because we’re going to have to move along.

• Yeah. I don’t – there’s no – unless there’s something that you specifically need to ask me, or that you needed an answer to.

• Yeah, I do have a question for you. The reason I set that situation up to describe it to you is because I want to know what the rights of the public are. Do these guards have untrammeled authority to tell people, no matter what the situation, to leave if they choose?

• If you’re walking around with this device, and you’re doing interviews and stuff with other people, and refusing to shut it off, then yeah. This is . . .

• That wasn’t . . .

• This is the Metro’s property, and if they feel that you are in some way not being in a safe, not conducting yourself in a safe manner, or other people in the area feel that they are threatened by you, yes, they can ask you to move along.

• Now, is there a standard? Because that was not the case under this situation at all.

• I wasn’t here, so I don’t know exactly what the situation was, but [inaudible] . . .

• Luckily, we have a tape recording of it, so it’s clear.

• [inaudible] to me that the police have taken their report, and if you have any other questions, you can deal with them.

• Well, the reason I say that is ‘cause we intend to set up a table here and do some fliering and leafleting, and I want to advise you in advance that we believe this is a First Amendment right to do.

• I think that if you want to do that, then I am not the person that you need to discuss that with. You can discuss that with administration. Do you have the telephone number and the . . .

• I have the phone numbers. I'm just wondering . . .

• I won’t answer any more questions. I think that’s enough.

• You’re the supervisor on duty. That’s why I wanted to ask you. Specifically I wanted to ask you if it’s all right to enter the property.

• Not at this point. Not today. Today you’re finished being on the property.

• And what is the standard your officers use in determining . . .

• [inaudible]

• You refuse to answer that. You won’t tell me what your standard is. So apparently she’s leaving without giving us any answer as to what actually the standard is required for a member of the public to use the property. You’re walking away without answering a question, Ma’am. Are you the supervisor who’s responsible for answering questions or not?

• No, she – remember, [inaudible].

• Well, she’s the person in charge, no? At the moment.

• To answer that question, yes, but further questions you’re going to have to . . .

• Further questions? I'm just asking about general policies as far as she knows. She’s here on duty today.

• Like as far as you’ve been kicked out and all that, that’s all we can do for you today.

• Well, I'm not – I'm not – I was asking her a broader question.

• But [inaudible] get going [inaudible] so any more questions? [inaudible] the website and everything? [inaudible] before you do that, [inaudible] you don’t want to have a conversations, call that number.

• Well, I appreciate your trying to be helpful. I would appreciate if in the future, though, you . . .

• [inaudible]

• Well, if you want to go, you should go.

• Thank you.

• You take care, Dan. OK.

by Bruce Holloway
Wednesday May 27th, 2009 2:22 PM
Any proper script should identify each player. I think one "[inaudible]" in the middle was "Bathrobespierre's" so I infer that you did pay a transcriptionist. The sergeant must have said [only] issued one citation on Halloween and then after you told him you were recording, corrected himself and said [tons o'] citations. Unlike Clive Boustred, you gave your date of birth, and unlike Robert Brunette, you signed the citation, and thus avoided additional misdemeanor charges. Happy 62nd this Saturday.
by Care to clarify
Friday May 29th, 2009 9:41 AM
Perhaps my last post, which was deleted, was too personal or too critical of the racism exhibited by the two people Mr. Norse chose to defend in this case. But my main question remains unanswered, so I'll rephrase it in a simpler way, in hopes of getting an answer.

Robert, can you clarify what appears to be a contradiction in your own reports as to what occurred and instigated this case?

You originally reported that these men were made to leave. "They said they'd complained and were told to leave with the sermonizing continuing."

Now you report that they left of their own free will. In fact, you clarified that yourself in your initial interaction with them:

"I see. But he didn’t attempt to make you leave, right?" No".

So my question to you: why did you misreport what happened?

by Drummer Dave
(Trackintracks Saturday May 30th, 2009 6:48 PM
I Cannot Believe that judge symons of the City of Santacruz Ca.
Wants The attorney to type what she already has on recorded tape in her possession.
She is not Firing on all thrusters Man!!!!!
She even asked about her being able to play the tape on a cassette player...
I heard the Defendant Rob Norse tell her basically she could play it on any cassette player.
She even asked rob to bust out the anti recording Tabs on the cassette in the courtroom,Before he gave her the tape as evidence to his case against The Santacruz Metro station security gaurd and The S.C.P.D.
MAN!!! What an abuse of Power she has on the citizens and A Journalist Rob Norse of Santacruz.
I am appalled By Her ever being elected for a position in the Santacruz courts.
She should try for A JANITORIAL POSITION,
by Robert Norse
Tuesday Jun 2nd, 2009 4:02 PM
Re: "Care to Clarify" request.

The tape and the transcript makes it clear that the two weren't told to leave. They were however treated brusquely enough so that they were angry enough about the matter to ask me to check into it. If I said they were told to leave, that was an error. My apologies. I think I've corrected the story since.

I was the one forced to leave for one or more of the following: (a) pressing the Metro to stop sermonizing us, (b) making a point of insisting that security guards give their names, badge numbers, and superior's names, (c) "blocking" a sign that is 6' long on both sides, and/or (d) making an audio recording of all of this without the permission of the guards. None of these things violates either Metro rules or the law.

I also observed the guard "moving along" others sitting on the ground in the Pacific Ave. Metro entranceway (but not blocking anything). The point of my visit there was to both determine what kind of "move along" activity was going on, and to expose and discourage it.

I've gotten a better version of the transcript with names of speakers filled in (as well as some inaccurate and omitted sections corrected). That should be posted soon. The judge is scheduled to make a decision on June 9th. I'm also getting an audio of the trial which will hopefully be played on Free Radio and posted on line for the truly masochistic.
Tuesday Jun 2nd, 2009 9:05 PM

Download PDF
This is an updated accounting of the conversation between Robert and the Metro Security guard.
Bert wrote in the Scotts Valley's Sentinel in regards to Mr. Kahn/Norses's MONITORY Fortune-
he certainly has NO wealth of propriety nor common sense.
Homeless Kahn/Norse Fortune:
Mr. Robert Norse= $10,000,000.00 inherited in his pocket.
$40,000,000.00 controled by Ruth Kahn (his mom) foundation. He's on the board with his siblings.
Steve Kahn's house (his father) sold for $12,000,000.00.
Another capitalist pig?

...and I say...
Hey Mr. NORSE IS one of them after all-I knew it, just did not have the "look" of one currently-
Bet a couple nights of rooms service would help after that "community service"
Santa Cruz, where service are cut to those in need-
While fake- fat, ipod listening, cell phone using, cigarette butt tossing, Nati Ice drinkin',
homeless activist types look to grab their 10 seconds of fame and a fat piece of the bureaucratic pie at the expense of those actually in need.
Keep Santa cRUZ Coonerty!