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Indybay Feature
Animal Liberation Brigade Burns Vehicle at Home of UCLA Primate Vivisector
For Immediate Release
March 11, 2009
March 11, 2009
Animal Liberation Brigade Burns Vehicle at Home of UCLA Primate Vivisector
David Jentsch, Collaborator with Edythe London in Addicting Non-human Primates to Methamphetamines
Los Angeles, CA: In an anonymous communique received by the Press Office yesterday, the Animal Liberation Brigade claims to have burned a vehicle at the home of UCLA vivisector David Jentsch. Jentsch is notorious for addicting non-human primates to methamphetamines before killing them in his laboratory and writing about his deeds in obscure scientific journals. His collaborator Edythe London has also been targeted by animal liberationists in their campaign to stop the needless suffering of non-human primates at the hands of egotistical vivisectors intent on obtaining as much grant money as possible in order to ensure their continued employment. Nothing either of the vivisectors have done to non-human primates has been applicable to treating human illness.
The current communique reads:
On Friday night March sixth we burned a vehicle at the home of David Jentsch [address removed by Indybay] in Los Angeles. Jentsch is a peice of human shit who addicts monkeys to methamphetamines and other street drugs at the University of California at Los Angeles.
He associates with other peices of human shit like Edythe London who is addicting and experimenting on monkeys. The things you and others like you do to feeling sentient monkeys is so cruel and disgusting we can't believe anyone would be able to live with themselves.
David, here's a message just for you, we will come for you when you least expect it and do a lot more damanage than to your property. Where ever you go and what ever you do we'll be watching you as long as you continue to do your disgusting experiments on monkeys.
And a special message for the FBI, the more legit activists you fuck with the more it inspires us since wer're the people whom you least suspect and when we hit we hit hard. --Animal Liberation Brigade
Press Officer Dr. Jerry Vlasak, a medical doctor and former vivisector, is not surprised at the persistent acts of sabotage. "As UCLA continues to throw away scarce medical research funding on antiquated and useless animal experimentation, other centers continue to utilize modern medical techniques that are far more likely to result in cures for human patients such as those I and other clinicians treat daily. The administration refusal to dialogue for years with mainstream activists and their own students on the matter naturally enough results in additional consequences at the hands of less patient activists."
In related developments, last Wednesday night ABC News' Nightline released video of undercover footage shot at UL Lafayette's New Iberia Research Center. The footage, along with a 108-page report of 328 complaints of physical and psychological mistreatment of chimpanzees and monkeys at the center has been forwarded to the U.S. Department of Agriculture. The agency’s secretary, Thomas Vilsack, has promised an investigation.
Vivisection, or experimentation on animals, is not only an evil that is perpetrated on millions of innocent animals, but is also scientifically fraudulent. While 20,000 children worldwide die every month from lack of access to clean water, vivisectors in University of California laboratories are wasting money addicting primates to crystal methamphetamines, gluing coils to the globes of their eyes and doing other inhumane and painful experiments on other species of animals, including cats, dogs, pigs, mice and birds. In a civilized society, and with better alternatives to animal experimentation, US academia should be on the fore-front of good, solid, non-animal-based research that could save the lives of children and adults alike. Instead, greedy "scientists"continue business as usual by torturing and mutilating non-human animals; it seems that until they begin doing ethical and scientifically-valid non-animal research, vivisectors will continue to be a target for those who are moral, courageous and heroic.
- 30 -
For more information visit, http://www.animalliberationpressoffice.org.
Animal Liberation Press Office
6320 Canoga Avenue #1500
Woodland Hills, CA 91367
press [at] animalliberationpressoffice.org
David Jentsch, Collaborator with Edythe London in Addicting Non-human Primates to Methamphetamines
Los Angeles, CA: In an anonymous communique received by the Press Office yesterday, the Animal Liberation Brigade claims to have burned a vehicle at the home of UCLA vivisector David Jentsch. Jentsch is notorious for addicting non-human primates to methamphetamines before killing them in his laboratory and writing about his deeds in obscure scientific journals. His collaborator Edythe London has also been targeted by animal liberationists in their campaign to stop the needless suffering of non-human primates at the hands of egotistical vivisectors intent on obtaining as much grant money as possible in order to ensure their continued employment. Nothing either of the vivisectors have done to non-human primates has been applicable to treating human illness.
The current communique reads:
On Friday night March sixth we burned a vehicle at the home of David Jentsch [address removed by Indybay] in Los Angeles. Jentsch is a peice of human shit who addicts monkeys to methamphetamines and other street drugs at the University of California at Los Angeles.
He associates with other peices of human shit like Edythe London who is addicting and experimenting on monkeys. The things you and others like you do to feeling sentient monkeys is so cruel and disgusting we can't believe anyone would be able to live with themselves.
David, here's a message just for you, we will come for you when you least expect it and do a lot more damanage than to your property. Where ever you go and what ever you do we'll be watching you as long as you continue to do your disgusting experiments on monkeys.
And a special message for the FBI, the more legit activists you fuck with the more it inspires us since wer're the people whom you least suspect and when we hit we hit hard. --Animal Liberation Brigade
Press Officer Dr. Jerry Vlasak, a medical doctor and former vivisector, is not surprised at the persistent acts of sabotage. "As UCLA continues to throw away scarce medical research funding on antiquated and useless animal experimentation, other centers continue to utilize modern medical techniques that are far more likely to result in cures for human patients such as those I and other clinicians treat daily. The administration refusal to dialogue for years with mainstream activists and their own students on the matter naturally enough results in additional consequences at the hands of less patient activists."
In related developments, last Wednesday night ABC News' Nightline released video of undercover footage shot at UL Lafayette's New Iberia Research Center. The footage, along with a 108-page report of 328 complaints of physical and psychological mistreatment of chimpanzees and monkeys at the center has been forwarded to the U.S. Department of Agriculture. The agency’s secretary, Thomas Vilsack, has promised an investigation.
Vivisection, or experimentation on animals, is not only an evil that is perpetrated on millions of innocent animals, but is also scientifically fraudulent. While 20,000 children worldwide die every month from lack of access to clean water, vivisectors in University of California laboratories are wasting money addicting primates to crystal methamphetamines, gluing coils to the globes of their eyes and doing other inhumane and painful experiments on other species of animals, including cats, dogs, pigs, mice and birds. In a civilized society, and with better alternatives to animal experimentation, US academia should be on the fore-front of good, solid, non-animal-based research that could save the lives of children and adults alike. Instead, greedy "scientists"continue business as usual by torturing and mutilating non-human animals; it seems that until they begin doing ethical and scientifically-valid non-animal research, vivisectors will continue to be a target for those who are moral, courageous and heroic.
- 30 -
For more information visit, http://www.animalliberationpressoffice.org.
Animal Liberation Press Office
6320 Canoga Avenue #1500
Woodland Hills, CA 91367
press [at] animalliberationpressoffice.org
For more information:
http://www.animalliberationpressoffice.org
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america needs more people removing nazis from planet
It's is incredibly disturbing and hypocritical that anyone thinks it is okay to threaten and harm an animal researcher. If you have ever taken any medication, including antibiotics, vaccines, tylenol, then you have benefited from animal research. I'd like to see how you would feel if a sibling or parents had schizophrenia. You would want people like David Jentsch to try to study the disorder and develop new treatments. David Jentsch studies two seriously debilitating disorders, schizophrenia and drug addiction. Schizophrenia costs the US over 62 billion a year and is devastating for families. David's research has been integral in helping us understand the causes of each disorder in order to develop treatments. He has published in THE top academic journals, including Science and Biological Psychiatry. He does not torture animals. He is an incredibly humane person, unlike those who have threatened him. He has tenure, so he doesn't need grants to support his career. He actually cares about trying to find the causes of serious psychiatric illnesses and for this he is threatened and his car is blown up. You people really make me sick.
This is both incredibly disturbing and completely false information. David Jentsch is a dedicated scientist who has devoted his career to studying some of the most severe and debilitating forms of mental illness. His research is at the very top of the field and has been, and will continue to be published in the BEST journals. Not only has he contributed substantially to our understanding of schizophrenia and drug addiction but he is an inspiring teacher and mentor. His work inspired me as an undergraduate to want to devote my life to understanding and treating mental illness and has contributed substantially towards the development and testing of new medications for schizophrenia. To see him threatened by people who claim to care about the feelings of animals but obviously have no regard for the lives and feelings of people is both frightening and disturbing. To read people praising these actions, openly threatening him and spreading lies about him is just disgusting. He has done nothing but try to help others, the people who speak out against him are not accurately informed about his work or the enormous medical benefits that have come from animal research and anyone who justifies violence against him does not have even a tiny spec of moral ground to stand on. If you want to prevent animal cruelty and needless animal testing I am all for it but targeting scientists who are working towards medical breakthroughs and supporting the use of violence against them is ridiculous, stupid, egotistical and the worst kind of moral relativism. Get your facts straight and try devoting your time to something that actually helps people or animals rather than just wrapping up terrorism in a pretty package.
I am truly sickened at the act of fire bombing a researcher's vehicle. It reflects the sheer idiocy of the animal liberation brigade and those who endorse this kind of behavior. Grow up from your displaced teenage angst and do something worthwhile in the world.
To the people who wrote comments about schizophrenia and whether or not Vlasak can help people with mental illness by testing pharma products on chimps and other non-human primates, let me say this;
1) Chimps and other non-human primates may suffer from symptoms of depression after one of their close relatives dies, though it isn't the same long term depression as suffered by humans. Though we may share 99% of our DNA with chimps, our brains are wired quite differently and what works for chimps may not work for humans. No reliable results would be obtained by testing psychiatric pharma products on chimps.
2) The assumption that novel psychiatric pharma products would actually help people with schizophrenia is another form of propaganda perpetuated by the AMA, NAMI and other pro-psychiatry groups. People suffering with emotional disorders really need a safe environment and loving, trustworthy counselors. Since these requirements are often difficult to attain, psychiatric pharma products are often substituted as symptom relief. However, pharma products result in their own form of dependency and lacking a social support network eventually fail to cover up the symptoms of emotional/mental distress.
3) If people really wanted to help with research in improving medical treatments, then supporting human stem cell research would be the most logical path. Human stem cell research is the most accurate form of medical research as human stem cells are 100% equal to other humans and would show more accurate results than ANY animal tests ever would.
4) Animal research is allowed to continue because it is the fastest method of getting a new product to market, reliability of results be damned. For the pharma and chemical corporations who depend upon animal research for their profits, they do not want more accurate results, only faster time frame to release new products.
1) Chimps and other non-human primates may suffer from symptoms of depression after one of their close relatives dies, though it isn't the same long term depression as suffered by humans. Though we may share 99% of our DNA with chimps, our brains are wired quite differently and what works for chimps may not work for humans. No reliable results would be obtained by testing psychiatric pharma products on chimps.
2) The assumption that novel psychiatric pharma products would actually help people with schizophrenia is another form of propaganda perpetuated by the AMA, NAMI and other pro-psychiatry groups. People suffering with emotional disorders really need a safe environment and loving, trustworthy counselors. Since these requirements are often difficult to attain, psychiatric pharma products are often substituted as symptom relief. However, pharma products result in their own form of dependency and lacking a social support network eventually fail to cover up the symptoms of emotional/mental distress.
3) If people really wanted to help with research in improving medical treatments, then supporting human stem cell research would be the most logical path. Human stem cell research is the most accurate form of medical research as human stem cells are 100% equal to other humans and would show more accurate results than ANY animal tests ever would.
4) Animal research is allowed to continue because it is the fastest method of getting a new product to market, reliability of results be damned. For the pharma and chemical corporations who depend upon animal research for their profits, they do not want more accurate results, only faster time frame to release new products.
Sorry, meant to say "Jentsch", not "Vlasak" in the intro line of above comment.
In addition, even if chimpanzees do suffer from symptoms of depression and/or schizophrenia, that doesn't mean it is the same as in humans and any test results dealing with an organ as complicated as the brain will certainly show skewed results between different species..
In addition, even if chimpanzees do suffer from symptoms of depression and/or schizophrenia, that doesn't mean it is the same as in humans and any test results dealing with an organ as complicated as the brain will certainly show skewed results between different species..
Your groups choice of action as a way to draw attention has only drawn attention to your negative choices. The ability for research to provide the basis for understanding, identifying and implementing treatment for any disease is long standing and respected. Instead of burning and threatening, you should consider actions that deliver information for cures and treatments for what is a terribly debilitating disease and affects all aspects of society
Listen now:
Transcript of audio:
In California, peaceful protesters are serving prison time for giving out leaflets at UCLA opposing animal experimentation or vivisection on campus.
One again, the Animal Liberation Front or ALF has put points on the board in defiance of the repression. With peaceful protest impossible, the ALF has been burning cars belonging ot those responsable for the torture of animals at UCLA. This has happened many times in the past year, and the ALF has just put points on the board again!
On Sat, March 7, a vivisectionist's car was set on fire outside his HOME near UCLA. Nobody was injured, but you can bet this professor, who conducts psychiatric and drug addiction experiments on animals, is feeling a lot more heat that he would from the peaceful protests the cops and the FBI have made impossible!
A group calling itself the Animal Liberation Brigade has claimed credit for the fire in a communique. Maybe now people will think twice about addicting animals to drugs in the name of so-called "research!"
In California, peaceful protesters are serving prison time for giving out leaflets at UCLA opposing animal experimentation or vivisection on campus.
One again, the Animal Liberation Front or ALF has put points on the board in defiance of the repression. With peaceful protest impossible, the ALF has been burning cars belonging ot those responsable for the torture of animals at UCLA. This has happened many times in the past year, and the ALF has just put points on the board again!
On Sat, March 7, a vivisectionist's car was set on fire outside his HOME near UCLA. Nobody was injured, but you can bet this professor, who conducts psychiatric and drug addiction experiments on animals, is feeling a lot more heat that he would from the peaceful protests the cops and the FBI have made impossible!
A group calling itself the Animal Liberation Brigade has claimed credit for the fire in a communique. Maybe now people will think twice about addicting animals to drugs in the name of so-called "research!"
While I'd much rather debate the merits of research models then read about people justifying burning cars and harrassing people to further science or their campaigns your facts are still not right.
1) Yes chimps and other animals experience depression and other psychiatric symptoms differently than humans but that does not mean that "no reliable information would come from testing medications on chimps". In fact many medications work the same way for chimps and humans. While you are correct in saying that just because something works for a chimp does not mean it will work for a person the jump to then saying that means no reliable info will come from that is poor logic. Plus when I said his research has lead to break-through in treatments I was not referring to testing medicines on animals. His research has taught us about the biology of mental illness. When you understand what is going on chemically for things like schizophrenia you are better able to develop treatments to target the syndrome. Prior to his research people thought that only dopamine was important and now we know that is not true. And that came from work with animals and could not have been done with people.
2) I totally agree that for most psychological conditions therapy and an excellent support network are the best possible treatment. However when someone comes in and is completely out of touch with reality they often cannot even engage in a conversation that would be therapeutic. While I am not the biggest fan of medications because I think people use them inaccurately and like to believe that pills will solve their problems, in some cases they are absolutely necessary to provide additional relief and allow for therapy and other supports to be effective and accepted.
3) Stem cells are great. But they really don't relate at all to David Jentsch's work or the prior conversations. There is nothing about stem cell research that would benefit psychiatric research right now. Actually in order to have the potential for something like stem cells to work we would need to keep doing animal research so we understood what cells to correct or what disruptions to model with the stem cells. That is point. Mental illness is not like other diseases where we know what is going wrong and we can try things out to see if they will help. We don't know what is going wrong. We still need to figure that out and we cannot do that without animal research.
4) Big Pharma has tons of money and you are right they do not always have the best interest of anyone at heart, they are out to make a profit. However again this really isn't related to what we're talking about or what happened to David Jentsch. Pharmaceuticals make it onto the market because of drug trials with people. Very little animal research is funded by Big Pharma and while Dr. Jentsch's research has helped people to think about what kinds of drugs might work well for disorders, he is not really testing their meds or being bankrolled by pharma. He might investigate how drugs that are already approved fit into the models and why they are helpful but really animal research in terms of pharma development is just designed to show that drugs don't kill the animals, you can't prove things work to treat mental illness by just testing them in animals. From the perspective of Big Pharma animal research mostly slows down the process, it does not speed it up. Animal research is funded because when it is done well (as it is done by Dr. Jentsch), it answers questions we cannot answer in any other way.
And really if you think animals deserve equal treatment with people then threatening to kill someone because they do not see eye-to-eye with you is not a great way to illustrate the manner in which you think any organism should be treated. If life is precious it is precious. You don't get to have it both ways and still think you're taking the high road. Nothing anyone says will ever be able to convince me otherwise and I have enough faith in people (despite some things I've read here this week) that I believe in my heart these kinds of tactics will never be effective. You cannot break the human spirit through terrorism, you only make people stronger and I think the general world and the UCLA community more specifically will not allow itself to be bullied in that way.
1) Yes chimps and other animals experience depression and other psychiatric symptoms differently than humans but that does not mean that "no reliable information would come from testing medications on chimps". In fact many medications work the same way for chimps and humans. While you are correct in saying that just because something works for a chimp does not mean it will work for a person the jump to then saying that means no reliable info will come from that is poor logic. Plus when I said his research has lead to break-through in treatments I was not referring to testing medicines on animals. His research has taught us about the biology of mental illness. When you understand what is going on chemically for things like schizophrenia you are better able to develop treatments to target the syndrome. Prior to his research people thought that only dopamine was important and now we know that is not true. And that came from work with animals and could not have been done with people.
2) I totally agree that for most psychological conditions therapy and an excellent support network are the best possible treatment. However when someone comes in and is completely out of touch with reality they often cannot even engage in a conversation that would be therapeutic. While I am not the biggest fan of medications because I think people use them inaccurately and like to believe that pills will solve their problems, in some cases they are absolutely necessary to provide additional relief and allow for therapy and other supports to be effective and accepted.
3) Stem cells are great. But they really don't relate at all to David Jentsch's work or the prior conversations. There is nothing about stem cell research that would benefit psychiatric research right now. Actually in order to have the potential for something like stem cells to work we would need to keep doing animal research so we understood what cells to correct or what disruptions to model with the stem cells. That is point. Mental illness is not like other diseases where we know what is going wrong and we can try things out to see if they will help. We don't know what is going wrong. We still need to figure that out and we cannot do that without animal research.
4) Big Pharma has tons of money and you are right they do not always have the best interest of anyone at heart, they are out to make a profit. However again this really isn't related to what we're talking about or what happened to David Jentsch. Pharmaceuticals make it onto the market because of drug trials with people. Very little animal research is funded by Big Pharma and while Dr. Jentsch's research has helped people to think about what kinds of drugs might work well for disorders, he is not really testing their meds or being bankrolled by pharma. He might investigate how drugs that are already approved fit into the models and why they are helpful but really animal research in terms of pharma development is just designed to show that drugs don't kill the animals, you can't prove things work to treat mental illness by just testing them in animals. From the perspective of Big Pharma animal research mostly slows down the process, it does not speed it up. Animal research is funded because when it is done well (as it is done by Dr. Jentsch), it answers questions we cannot answer in any other way.
And really if you think animals deserve equal treatment with people then threatening to kill someone because they do not see eye-to-eye with you is not a great way to illustrate the manner in which you think any organism should be treated. If life is precious it is precious. You don't get to have it both ways and still think you're taking the high road. Nothing anyone says will ever be able to convince me otherwise and I have enough faith in people (despite some things I've read here this week) that I believe in my heart these kinds of tactics will never be effective. You cannot break the human spirit through terrorism, you only make people stronger and I think the general world and the UCLA community more specifically will not allow itself to be bullied in that way.
This incident is just really terrible and makes me very sad. I hope that some day we progress to the point that we can express our differences in a mutually respectful, honorable way. The actions against Prof. Jentsch are far from that - they are shameful and do nothing to promote the cause of animal activism. As an animal lover and advocate I can say without hesitation that animal research is of the utmost value and in every circumstance I am aware of done in the most humane way possible. I also know that Dr. Jentsch's work is done with absolute respect for the animals he works with and that he does everything he can to minimize their suffering. We humans cause ourselves so much pain, yet all such researchers want to do is find ways to alleviate that pain. When will good-intentioned but incredibly uninformed people realize that this kind of violence never solves anything? When will you realize that the only way to foster love and respect is to show love and respect to every other living thing you come in contact with? When will true animal lovers stop bending to the maniacal preachings of folks bent on terror and destruction - with no love in there hearts at all?
I understand that this sort of research may make people unhappy; however, there are lawful ways to oppose it. This kind of action simply inflames and hardens people on both sides of the issue. Work to change the laws and build popular support for your cause; terror attacks are never the solution.
Thanks whomever for responding to the methods of animal research and their effectiveness. Glad to see some debate about the science, fact or myth..
"Concerned" wrote;
1) "While you are correct in saying that just because something works for a chimp does not mean it will work for a person the jump to then saying that means no reliable info will come from that is poor logic."
Not really poor logic. We've had plenty of "almosts" and "getting closes" when it comes to getting exact data results from animal tests as applied to humans. However, with the complex nature of medical research on developed organisms like mammals, an "almost" or "getting close" can make the difference between life and death, or any unwanted side effects as appeared from Thalidomide and many other recent drugs deemed safe for human consumption following approved animal test results..
What the long term results of animal research shows is that "almost" is not good enough and more exact science of human stem cell research would yield better results. My prediction is that over time human stem cell research will result in making animal research obselete due to greater accuracy..
Concerned wrote;
"Plus when I said his research has lead to break-through in treatments I was not referring to testing medicines on animals. His research has taught us about the biology of mental illness."
Well there you go! Break through treatments were not the result of testing medicines on animals. could you elaborate and explain what type of results and treaments were gained from non-animal testing, and what tests were used to obtain these results? Most people would support non-invasive medical research that leads to good results, please specify..
"When you understand what is going on chemically for things like schizophrenia you are better able to develop treatments to target the syndrome. Prior to his research people thought that only dopamine was important and now we know that is not true. And that came from work with animals and could not have been done with people."
Why not? How does animal testing show results on chemical processes from an illness that animals are not able to develop themselves? Would like to see some proof of what results are useful to study of schizophrenia that could not have been tested on humans, and how an animal that cannot develop schizophrenia can supply accurate results about this condition..
Concerned wrote;
2) "I totally agree that for most psychological conditions therapy and an excellent support network are the best possible treatment. However when someone comes in and is completely out of touch with reality they often cannot even engage in a conversation that would be therapeutic. While I am not the biggest fan of medications because I think people use them inaccurately and like to believe that pills will solve their problems, in some cases they are absolutely necessary to provide additional relief and allow for therapy and other supports to be effective and accepted."
Specific to mental illness and meth addiction, the medications already existing are more accurate if tested on humans, not animals with results then being applied to humans. The very first human consumers to take the new product are unwilling test subjects anyway, as the first person in line to buy the pills will be the first "non-animal" to experiment with the product. As was the case with Thalidomide, after every other species of animal besides humans were tested and showed no adverse results, some pregnant mothers who first sampled the product as consumers were the first human test subjects, with the disasterous results of their children being born with flippers instead of hands and feet. NO OTHER ANIMAL TESTED SHOWED THESE RESULTS!!
3) "Stem cells are great. But they really don't relate at all to David Jentsch's work or the prior conversations. There is nothing about stem cell research that would benefit psychiatric research right now."
There is an obvious error, any blanket statement that claims nothing in stem cell research would benefit the psychiatric community is false. Stem cells include brain tissue, and this is where ealry onset mental illness and addictive impusles occur, so stem cells with brain cells can show results applied directly to human, not crossing over species barriers..
"Actually in order to have the potential for something like stem cells to work we would need to keep doing animal research so we understood what cells to correct or what disruptions to model with the stem cells. That is point. Mental illness is not like other diseases where we know what is going wrong and we can try things out to see if they will help. We don't know what is going wrong. We still need to figure that out and we cannot do that without animal research."
This sounds odd, animals showing reliable results for an illness they are mostly unable to attain to the degree of human complexity? We know enough of the general process of seratonin, dopamine and other brain chemicals to perform stem cell research on brain cells in isolated controlled situations..
4) "Big Pharma has tons of money and you are right they do not always have the best interest of anyone at heart, they are out to make a profit. However again this really isn't related to what we're talking about or what happened to David Jentsch. Pharmaceuticals make it onto the market because of drug trials with people. Very little animal research is funded by Big Pharma and while Dr. Jentsch's research has helped people to think about what kinds of drugs might work well for disorders, he is not really testing their meds or being bankrolled by pharma."
Of course pharmaceutical corporations bankroll animal research, and many of their new and novel products were tested on animals, not people. Jentsch is caught up in the cogs of the research industry, and even if indirectly, the money flows from pharma corps to the animal research facilities..
"Concerned" wrote;
1) "While you are correct in saying that just because something works for a chimp does not mean it will work for a person the jump to then saying that means no reliable info will come from that is poor logic."
Not really poor logic. We've had plenty of "almosts" and "getting closes" when it comes to getting exact data results from animal tests as applied to humans. However, with the complex nature of medical research on developed organisms like mammals, an "almost" or "getting close" can make the difference between life and death, or any unwanted side effects as appeared from Thalidomide and many other recent drugs deemed safe for human consumption following approved animal test results..
What the long term results of animal research shows is that "almost" is not good enough and more exact science of human stem cell research would yield better results. My prediction is that over time human stem cell research will result in making animal research obselete due to greater accuracy..
Concerned wrote;
"Plus when I said his research has lead to break-through in treatments I was not referring to testing medicines on animals. His research has taught us about the biology of mental illness."
Well there you go! Break through treatments were not the result of testing medicines on animals. could you elaborate and explain what type of results and treaments were gained from non-animal testing, and what tests were used to obtain these results? Most people would support non-invasive medical research that leads to good results, please specify..
"When you understand what is going on chemically for things like schizophrenia you are better able to develop treatments to target the syndrome. Prior to his research people thought that only dopamine was important and now we know that is not true. And that came from work with animals and could not have been done with people."
Why not? How does animal testing show results on chemical processes from an illness that animals are not able to develop themselves? Would like to see some proof of what results are useful to study of schizophrenia that could not have been tested on humans, and how an animal that cannot develop schizophrenia can supply accurate results about this condition..
Concerned wrote;
2) "I totally agree that for most psychological conditions therapy and an excellent support network are the best possible treatment. However when someone comes in and is completely out of touch with reality they often cannot even engage in a conversation that would be therapeutic. While I am not the biggest fan of medications because I think people use them inaccurately and like to believe that pills will solve their problems, in some cases they are absolutely necessary to provide additional relief and allow for therapy and other supports to be effective and accepted."
Specific to mental illness and meth addiction, the medications already existing are more accurate if tested on humans, not animals with results then being applied to humans. The very first human consumers to take the new product are unwilling test subjects anyway, as the first person in line to buy the pills will be the first "non-animal" to experiment with the product. As was the case with Thalidomide, after every other species of animal besides humans were tested and showed no adverse results, some pregnant mothers who first sampled the product as consumers were the first human test subjects, with the disasterous results of their children being born with flippers instead of hands and feet. NO OTHER ANIMAL TESTED SHOWED THESE RESULTS!!
3) "Stem cells are great. But they really don't relate at all to David Jentsch's work or the prior conversations. There is nothing about stem cell research that would benefit psychiatric research right now."
There is an obvious error, any blanket statement that claims nothing in stem cell research would benefit the psychiatric community is false. Stem cells include brain tissue, and this is where ealry onset mental illness and addictive impusles occur, so stem cells with brain cells can show results applied directly to human, not crossing over species barriers..
"Actually in order to have the potential for something like stem cells to work we would need to keep doing animal research so we understood what cells to correct or what disruptions to model with the stem cells. That is point. Mental illness is not like other diseases where we know what is going wrong and we can try things out to see if they will help. We don't know what is going wrong. We still need to figure that out and we cannot do that without animal research."
This sounds odd, animals showing reliable results for an illness they are mostly unable to attain to the degree of human complexity? We know enough of the general process of seratonin, dopamine and other brain chemicals to perform stem cell research on brain cells in isolated controlled situations..
4) "Big Pharma has tons of money and you are right they do not always have the best interest of anyone at heart, they are out to make a profit. However again this really isn't related to what we're talking about or what happened to David Jentsch. Pharmaceuticals make it onto the market because of drug trials with people. Very little animal research is funded by Big Pharma and while Dr. Jentsch's research has helped people to think about what kinds of drugs might work well for disorders, he is not really testing their meds or being bankrolled by pharma."
Of course pharmaceutical corporations bankroll animal research, and many of their new and novel products were tested on animals, not people. Jentsch is caught up in the cogs of the research industry, and even if indirectly, the money flows from pharma corps to the animal research facilities..
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