Anti Choice queer organization to march in Queer Pride

"It's important to note that this information is not being posted to suggest the expulsion of this or any other anti-choice organization or individual. They exist whether they march or not."

But I bet you wish they would go away.
What a pain in your ass.

I support people's right to do whatever they want to those who are actively against a women's right to choose. And it should be noted that there will be many people out at Pride Day who do not believe in many of the good progressive things that we all should believe in--Gay cops, politicians and corporations tryign to get the gay vote or money. Depending upon how pushy they (the gay and lesbian pro-lifers) are, it is more important to take a positive stand for gay liberation on pride day than it is to confront one tiny little group, epsecially since it doen't say they'll he marching, just staffing a table or booth.

....PLAGAL apparently has taken no stance on the attempted shutdown (by right wing, anti-choice Operation Save America) of the Pride event in North Carolina. Anybody care to ask them if they plan to support their queer brothers and sisters there in August? Or are they too busy this summer opposing womens reproductive rights?

Well, goodness me, what's going on in North Carolina? Thought you'd never ask, PLAGAL!
http://www.indybay.org/news/2006/06/1826752.php

I don't want them to "go away". I want people who have ongoing committments to reproductive autonomy to know they'll be there and set their course accordingly.

I think I've had too much to eat. Where can I throw up?

Well, my goodness! Whoever said that in order to be an out and proud gay person that you had to be pro-choice? Sounds pretty closed-minded and conservative to ME...

...your allies in the struggle? Not your allies? Well then, have you made your reservations to visit North Carolina this August to support the attack on LGBTI rights by OSA? No? Why not?

Certainly, we don't all need to agree, but we do need to agree on who is attacking our freedoms. If you can't see the disconnect between supporting antichoicers (with a history of violence against women and medical providers) who are also attacking LGBTI rights, well mercy me, what's the world coming to?

Thank you for running this piece. I look forward to seeing these booths at pride and signing up. This is a great cause with a powerful message. Gay Rights and Abortion Rights are not one of the same. This group shows that there are gay people out there that are able to think for themselves and stand up for what they believe despite popular thought. Gay Pro Lifers are passionate people that can see beyond the spoon fed propaganda. Abortion, sold as a choice, is a tool. A tool used to discriminate against society's most inferior, the unborn. To weed out the less fortunate, the poor, the uneducated. Lets just hope that in the future, its not directed towards us Gays.

Do you support every group that calls themselves "pro-gay" without examining their agenda? What about NAMBLA? They're pro-gay...

Just because there are radical elements in a group isn't a reason to not support the underlying cause. I would no more support "Operation Save America" than I would support NAMBLA or the "Kill a Baby Black Whale for Jesus" group. And when you lump all members of an ideology under one umbrella, you're no better than OSA or Al Qaeda or a simple homophobe who says, "All dem gayz is bad cuz dey soddumizes kids."

Personally, I don't feel the need to run under the umbrella of the pro-choicers (should we call them anti-life? or would that be using rhetoric?) just because SOME of them (not all) happen to support me on an important issue. I can thank them for that, and then respectfully disagree about them saying it's okay to kill babies, er, I mean, their "abortion views."

And perhaps we can work together on another issue... like getting childcare for working women or getting a living wage in place so that women don't feel they have ANY choice but to abort. You know what they say... an ounce of prevention...

to work on issues ranging form removing VOCS and other toxic chemicals in the atmosphere so that women who want to reproduce can, and I'll send you some info on Greenaction, which works on that very issue.
Calling fetal tissue a "baby" is an expression of culture, BTW, and...abortion isn't murder. It's abortion.
Oh, and I think that actuallu PLAGL is the group claiming that being gay and pro-life are fundementally linked positions.

is valuable and can only help the kind of democracy we all want. See you ar Pride!

The right wing anti-choicers are opposed to prevention. As in contraception. We're not talking about just Operation-whatever-they-call-themselves, now, we're talking about a mainstream antichoicers. read NY Times article:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2006/05/1822257.php

Never mind that contraceptives eliminate many unplanned pregnancies, you're friends on the religious right are for the most part opposed to any sex whatsoever unless you're:
A. straight and B. married to a woman.

Not exactly ideal if you're trying to avoid HIV is it?

oh, re this:
"All dem gayz is bad cuz dey soddumizes kids."
I know you're trying to be cute, but try not to be racist when you do it, 'kay?

We all want to find people who share our views and have something in common with us. Vegetarians will be there to find others who share their no-meat lifestyle, Dykes on Bikes will be there to find other Hog-loving ladies, and pro-lifers will be there to find others that believe that the human being living inside their mother deserves a chance at life. No one's there to brow beat others into believing what they do (at least I hope not!). We're there to demonstrate and celebrate the incredible diversity in the LGBT community.

having said what you said, lezmom, it still doesn't prevent our having this discussion. Good to remind one another that we all have plenty to celebrate. some in other parts of the country aren't so fortunate. and largely because of the oppressive treatment of the religious right.

and I'm sorry that, for various reasons that include the religious right, people don't feel free to discuss different issues. I like discussion, debate, but won't argue. If things start to turn into a yelling match, I'll be the first one to stop the conversation. I look forward to continuing the discussion here and at Pride. I'll be staffing the PLAGAL booth. Feel free to stop by, say hi, grab a brochure and see what we're all about!

we need to watch our language like the person above who made a feeble attempt at sounding like an ignorant person and wound up sounding like an even more ignorant person: a racist.

This person may in fact not feel they were being racist or didn't realize it when they hit "send". I stop the conversation when -that- happens.

but back to the discussion.

Out of curiousity, what is PLAGAL's stand on contraceptives, and the separation of church and state? Do you have a position paper on issues like those that we could discuss?

On the nonviolence statement on your website it states:
"...abortion, like all bad ideas, cannot be stopped with bombs and bullets, and perhaps not even ballots, but must instead be replaced with better alternatives."

Do you think it is possible to have a discussion, when you start with the premise that abortion is a bad idea under any circumstances, and no one else can tell you any different? It's hard to have a discussion when we start out like that.

Some people might consider it a an act of violence to force a woman to bear a child under the duress of rape, under the premise that the embryo (you would say baby of course, but I believe that is technically inaccurate) did no wrong. Some anti-choicers would even give the rapist-parent rights toward the seed he implanted through the commission of a felony. Where does PLAGAL stand on these issues?

On the PLAGAL website it states (in nonviolence pledge): "We have sponsored forums on abortion and breast cancer..."

What conclusions did you reach at these forums? Who were your experts and on what did they base their science?

Below is the conclusion of the US Government and experts worldwide on this question. Do you have any science that proves them wrong?

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/abortion-miscarriage
In February 2003, the National Cancer Institute (NCI) convened a workshop of over 100 of the world’s leading experts who study pregnancy and breast cancer risk. Workshop participants reviewed existing population-based, clinical, and animal studies on the relationship between pregnancy and breast cancer risk, including studies of induced and spontaneous abortions. They concluded that ***having an abortion or miscarriage does not increase a woman’s subsequent risk of developing breast cancer***. A summary of their findings, titled Summary Report: Early Reproductive Events and Breast Cancer Workshop, can be found at http://www.cancer.gov/cancerinfo/ere-workshop-report .

Yay! Now we have gay folks who want to tell heteros how to live their sexual lives.

Now that's progress!

Assumptions are dangerous things to make because they inhibit conversation.

You seem to be assuming that because I'm pro-life (isn't it funny that I haven't said yet that I am? Another assumption...) that I'm against contraception and that I consider those on the radical right my "friends." Neither is the case. I wholeheartedly endorse and propone non-abortifacient contraception, not only for the prevention of pregnancy but also for the prevention of disease. And, I'd sooner spit on Flip Benham or Fred Phelps than call them my friends. (As an aside, I'm not (anymore) a board member of PLAGAL, so I don't speak on their behalf, although I think they'd concur with my views.)

I'm sorry that you thought I was being racist. Personally I know as many white people who talk that way as do black/African-descended or Hispanic people. My point was to picture an uneducated person. I suppose someone can draw offense at anything, though, so I apologize if I offended.

I think we might all be able to agree that abortion is a horrible thing. Nobody *wants* to have an abortion. Most people would say there should be fewer abortions. Wouldn't that make sense? So maybe that's a bridge between the two camps... fewer abortions. Making it so that women don't feel the need to choose abortion. So many women are FORCED into it, because of their financial situation or their partners or the father or family members... isn't that a tragedy?

People who don't count themselves as being pro-life might consider the terrible trauma the mother is going through during an abortion. In the case of a raped woman, her body is being invaded AGAIN. That can't be an easy thing. The difference is that I think when an abortion happens there is not only that but an innocent child that is killed in the process. That doesn't mean I get to be sanctimonious about it, and I don't feel I have been.

The "Pro-life" movment starts with a few faulty assumptions. The most egregious is that abortion is a horrible thing. Oh yeah? Mine wasn't. On the contrary, it was less physically painful than a root canal, less spiritually painful/horrible BY FAR than coerced birth, and would have been less emotionally painful except the noise, manipulation and assertions of groups like PLAGAL who tell me what my experience is or should be.
It is a fundementalist/supremicist tactic to first tell the person you wish to dominate what their experince was/is/should be and secondly to edit out the voices of those who retarin and recount the truth of their experience in the face of such intrusiveness.
And, for the record, PLAGAL (unless you offer solid, verifiable proof otherwise) opposes and wants to overturn Roe V Wade. This goal was told to me by members of PLAGAL proudly. You dishonestly offer up what appears to be simply critique of the act. You have a legal plan/agenda, and it includes forcing me into compliance.
Unless I see in the mission statment of PLAGAL that they will never
a. advocate against Roe v Wade.
b. Give money to campaigns designed to overturn Roe V Wade and
c. refuse to accept members unless these members agree not to work against womens rights on a legal basis, PLAGAL will never be truly pro-life...you'll merely be anti-choice. Which is it?

a. While most members of PLAGAL do not feel that 9 months of abortion on demand should be legal (as was dictated by Roe v Wade), our main focus is on making abortion unnecessary. We work to help women find alternative solutions to abortion. We don't think a woman should have to choose between having a child and having an education, or having a child and putting food on the table. A woman in those situations probably doesn't feel that she has much of a choice. We do not support Roe v Wade at all, but our main focus right now is not on overturning it, but reducing the number of abortions.

b. PLAGAL cannot give money to political campaigns because we are a 501(c)3 non-profit organization and would lose our non-profit status. We do have a PAC that occasionally donates money to pro-life AND pro-gay candidates who are trying to get into public office, but we have not donated to campaigns specifically designed to overturn Roe v Wade as far as I'm aware.

c. We don't refuse people who want to be members, but do you really think someone who wasn't pro-life would be interested in being a member of PLAGAL? We have people on our mailing list who are not pro-life and we have made no attempt to exclude them. The announcement that we will be at the different Pride events was sent out by e-mail and was likely posted here by someone who is not pro-life. Why else would they have thought it such a critical need to inform the San Francisco pro-choice community that we were coming? We have no plans on removing that individual from our list even though I personally don't feel that it was posted simply for "educational" reasons.

If I haven't answered your questions satisfactorily, I'd be happy to try again, just let me know what you need clarification on.

I'm not sure myself.

One helped "elect" our Emperor W and the other is preoccupied with invading the reproductive rights of women.

"While most members of PLAGAL do not feel that 9 months of abortion on demand should be legal (as was dictated by Roe v Wade), our main focus is on making abortion unnecessary. We work to help women find alternative solutions to abortion".
How, exactly do you do this? Do you work with reproductive Justice/Freedom organizations to systematically advocate and publicize greater funding for Childcare? Do you systematically work to address the body burden of toxins pregnant women are suseptible to? What do you do, exactly?

We don't think a woman should have to choose between having a child and having an education, or having a child and putting food on the table. A woman in those situations probably doesn't feel that she has much of a choice. We do not support Roe v Wade at all, but our main focus right now is not on overturning it, but reducing the number of abortions.

I understand that many "pro-life" leftist's feel that abortion is a default and that supporting the action means reifying underfunded social systems that deny real choice. It is however, incorrect to imply (or think) that this is NOT a preoccupation shared by reproductive rights/health advocates. In fact if you look at the main bulk of organizing done by groups such at Native American Women's Health Organization http://www.nativeshop.org/pro-choice.html, you will find a nuanced, compassionate perspective of the gridwork that reproductive health and associated rights should exist in. This is a great example of a rhetoric that never let go of the simple idea that one "right" standing alone and apart was useless in guarenteeing health and choce for women's- they need to be networked.
How, exactly, do you network yours?


b. PLAGAL cannot give money to political campaigns because we are a 501(c)3 non-profit organization and would lose our non-profit status. We do have a PAC that occasionally donates money to pro-life AND pro-gay candidates who are trying to get into public office, but we have not donated to campaigns specifically designed to overturn Roe v Wade as far as I'm aware.

Please. If you have given money to pro-life candiates, what, pray tell, do you think they're doing with this money?

Taken from The Native American Women's Health Education Resource Center

Reproductive Rights Platform
Points 1 - 16 (May 18, 1990)
1. The right to knowledge and education for all family members, concerning sexuality and reproduction that is age, culture, and gender appropriate.
2. The right to all reproductive alternatives, and the right to choose the size of our families.

3. The right to affordable health care, including safe deliveries within our communities.

4. The right to access safe, free, and/or affordable abortions, regardless of age, with confidentiality and free pre- and post-counseling.
5. The right to active involvement in the development and implementation of policies concerning reproductive issues, including, but not limited to, pharmaceuticals and testing.

6. The right to include domestic violence, sexual assault, and AIDS as reproductive rights issues.

7. The right to programs which meet the nutritional needs of women and families.

8. The right to programs to reduce the rate of infant mortality and high-risk pregnancies.

9. The right to culturally specific, comprehensive, chemical dependency prenatal programs including, but not limited to, prevention of fetal alcohol syndrome and effects.

10. The right to stop coerced sterilization.
11. The right to a forum for cultural/spiritual development, culturally-oriented health care, and the right to live as Native Women.
12. The right to be fully informed about, and to consent to, any forms of medical treatment.

13 The right to determine who are members of our Nations.

14. The right to continuous, consistent, and quality health care for Native peoples.

15. The right to reproductive rights and support for women with disabilities, including emotional disabilities.

16. The right to parent our children in a non-sexist, non-racist environment.

Points 17 - 19 (Amended May 28, 2000)
17. The right of Two Spirited women, their partners, and their families to live free from persecution or discrimination based on their sexuality and/or gender, and the right to enjoy the same human, political, social, legal, economic, religious, tribal, and governmental rights and benefits afforded all other indigenous women.
18. The right to give birth and be attended to in the setting most appropriate, be it home, community, clinic, or hospital, and to be able to choose the support system for our births, including, but not limited to, Traditional Midwives, Families, and community members.
19. The right to education and support for breastfeeding that includes, but is not limited to, individuals and communities that allow for regrowth of traditional nurturing and parenting of our children.
In order to accomplish the stated rights, the Native Women for Reproductive Rights will create conditions and alliances to network with other groups.

http://www.indybay.org/news/2006/06/1826508.php

Not for educational purposes, but for communicative purposes.

overturn a law with only $100-$300 (the amount PLAGAL-PAC generally gives), I'd be amazed. No matter what law they can get overturned with that money, we need to get them headed for the presidency so they can get us out of the financial mess Dubya's drowning us in.

To try and save writing a bunch of replies, I want to try and combine another in this message.

Someone asked about what other things PLAGAL is doing for women. While we have been growing steadily in the past several years, we are still far from being a multi-million dollar corporation. We are limited in the things that we're able to do as an organization, so we depend on our members to individually work in their own communities to find practical ways of helping women.

I can't speak for what all members are doing, but I can tell you what I do. I am an officer on the board of directors of PLAGAL which is a volunteer position. I travel to different colleges, meetings, and churches to speak about abortion and related issues facing women. I spoke in my Unitarian Universalist church several years ago and I introduced an idea for pro-choicers and pro-lifers in the church to be able to work together to find ways to help women in our community. Although many people liked the idea, I wasn't able to get the program off the ground before I moved to a different state. I trained as a counselor to work in a pregnancy center, but as soon as they found out I wasn't straight, they showed me the door. No, not all our allies love us! I have donated baby items that I was able to collect to provide to women I knew were pregnant and were having a hard time financially. I have helped with free parenting classes to provide women and men with education in positive child-rearing methods. My church participates in a micro-lending program that provides very low income loans (1% or less) to people, mostly women, in 3rd world countries so they can start their own businesses and provide for their families. Our church also participates in Fair Trade where items are sold at prices that actually give farmers a living wage. I provide some financial support to my church, so I know that at least some of my money goes into each of these programs even if I'm not doing it directly.

And I'm not just about pro-life issues. I absolutely love creepy-crawlies and have been involved in reptile rescue for almost 8 years. I'm also raising my 2 kids, a 3 year old and 1 year old. I play in a local community band, and I volunteer as a content manager for 2 different websites. I like staying busy and it keeps my mind off of myself and my own disability.

I don't think that I do anything outstanding or that I can save the world, but I do what I can when I'm able to.

I dropped everything when I realised what was going on with this issue, which to me, cuts across the strata of society, rich and poor, of all races.

Whether to have or not have an abortion, or a child, or access to birth control or prenatal care, or sex education affects people who are, as we speak, no longer allowed self-determination on these very personal issues. Not allowed by governments, not allowed by the religious right, not allowed by people who respect their own views and moral choices so much that they are not willing to allow others to have their own space and moral views.

I want to leave a quote here from the transcript of the film about Gerri Santoro, the woman who was famous as the picture in Ms. Magazine as a victim of illegal abortion. This quote is from one of her daughters:

"I don't think abortion is right. Mainly because I believe that life begins at conception. Regardless if it's a viable fetus or not, it's a life form. I didn't always feel that way. I must say that at 15 or 16, whatever age I was when I did have an abortion, I didn't think any way. And certainly, we have a right to a choice. A god given right, for a lack of anything better to call it. That's why we're given a brain and certainly I would never want someone to tell me what I could or couldn't do. I honestly believe that I will be judged for the abortion when I was a teenager. As a Christian, I believe I've been forgiven for it. Whether I've been punished for it, I don't know. Whether I will be punished for it, I don't know. But that's something that I believe that someone should think about when they make that decision."

And it's certainly more than most people do. But if you volunteer for an organization that supports pro-life candidates, who likely recieve funds from many, many pro-life groups(it doesnt matter how much you give; the effect is felt in the aggregate) you are also doing your part to literally criminalize women's bodies, diminish their autonomy and women's abortion providers.

And if your advocacy tends towards a single goal- that of discouraging or outlawing abortion- you aren't supporting the process of decision making, which is what we are all called upon to do. We all need to develop a listening ear that allows women who are looking for input through the process of discerning what they need. IF they happen to be looking for guidance. For women like me, who know what they want, do them the honor of not second guessing, or riding shotgun on their choice. It's horribly destructive.

If your mesage to women is that abortion is always bad- if that's the basic assertion you start with, you are editing out the voices of women who have said, and who will continue to say this
"I had an abortion. It was critical, it was difficult, it was my decision, and it was the right one."
(I don't think avoiding complexity is proof I've made the right decision, btw.)

A classic civil rights/human rights position seeks out all voices and comes up with a legal framework that promises autonomy within each facet of the issue for each person. My perspective is this: i am pro-process and proudly pro voice. I am interested in interrelating as many rights as I can because I know that the unavoidable specificity surrounding women's decisons is the only constant element in the issue of reproductive rights. I have never told a woman who thinks abortion is the wrong decision for her, that it was in fact what she should do. Does your committment to a "pro-life" positon allow you to wholeheartedly endorse the decision making process that results in abortion? I don't think it does.

What I would say to you is this; take a pledge to abstain from working for any organization that has a PAC that gives money to Pro-life candidates. Honor women like me who didnt share your perspective of abortion and who would have, except for Roe v wade, been forced unwillingly into motherhood, or into a back alley abortion(they still exist) Honor your perspective that abortion is a result of lack, rather than abundance, and see if you can't find ways to work within the framework of being pro-life, but also pro-voice. Don't ever tell the woman what she should do. Ask her- if she asks, if she feels her conscience and desire arent speaking as clearly as she needs- what you can do to help her uncover her own obscured voice. And then respect that decision. It sounds like your in a place where you could do that.