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Daniel Pipes, a new kind of Israel-basher

by Haaretz (reposted)
I used to be an American Jew. And then I read Daniel Pipes.
"As Israelis go to the polls," Dr. Pipes wrote this week in an article that originally appeared in the New York Sun, "not one of the leading parties offers the option of winning the war against the Palestinian Arabs."

Dr. Pipes goes on to admit "a certain frustration" with the apparent unwillingness of Israelis to go out there and do the right thing: bring the Arabs to heel, by use of overwhelming force.

The article, entitled "Israel Shuns Victory," sets out a kind of self-test for us, listing nine different options by which Israelis from far left to far right, and moderates in between, all "manage the conflict without resolving it," "ignore the need to defeat Palestinian rejectionism." and "seek to finesse war rather than win it."

This is not the first time Dr. Pipes has let Israelis have it for letting him down. In a 2003 speech to college students, cited on his Website http://www.DanielPipes.org, he suggested that Arabs will not truly accept Israel's existence until Israel "punishes violence so hard that its enemies will eventually feel so deep a sense of futility that they will despair of further conflict."

Where did we go wrong? "Wars are won, the historical record shows, when one side feels compelled to give up on its goals," Dr. Pipes writes, indicating that Israel will win only when Arabs are forced to give up their goal of eliminating a Jewish state.

He notes, by way of inference, that the wars in 1948-49, 1956, 1967, 1973, and 1982 failed to persuade them. I guess we didn't fight hard enough, or well enough.

I suppose if I were living in, say, Philadelphia, Dr. Pipes' frustration, disappointment, and prescription for setting things right, might make perfect sense.

In fact, a number of our readers who live in North America, some of whom regularly use the word coward to describe Israeli moderates, have any number of suggestions for us as well, up to and including the use of weapons of mass destruction on Palestinians, apparently in an effort to change their minds about us.

That said, I have a couple of questions. The first concerns people like Mahmoud Masharka, 24, of Hebron. Masharka was apparently disguised as an Orthodox Jew when he set out hitchhiking late on Thursday and was picked up by a car in which four Israelis were travelling.

He then detonated the bomb belt he was wearing, incinerating the car and killing everyone inside.

Does Dr. Pipes really believe that people who crave a violent, Jew-murdering death are really going to accept Israel if only enough military force is applied?

Is Dr. Pipes telling us that people who celebrate the sacrament of suicide are going to think differently of us if we send in more tanks, bigger bombs, more F-16s, more Apaches, more infantry brigades, more commandos, demolish more homes, demolish more olive trees, demolish what little is left of the Palestinian Authority?

I understand that we have disappointed the analyst with the Harvard pedigree. But if he'll allow me one more question:

Since when did we become mercenaries for Daniel Pipes?

After reading Dr. Pipes, I'm not sure I can be an American Jew anymore. I guess, at long last, I've become an Israeli. Unlike Dr. Pipes, I can't bring myself to win the war against the Palestinians. At least not the way Dr. Pipes would have me do so. I guess the guy's right. My friends in my IDF battalion couldn't do it either.

Of course, there might be another explanation. One that might fit a guy who lives 6,000 miles away and lets us know we don't have the Right Stuff to show these Arabs what for.

Daniel Pipes is a new kind of Israel-basher. He is an equal-opportunity hater of Israelis. None of us is good enough for him. We lack the will to fight like the man he quotes as a role model for us, Douglas MacArthur. From unilateralism to transfer, nothing we come up with is good enough for him.

Try as we might, we just can't seem to win his war for him.

I guess he'll just have to do it by himself.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=700807&contrassID=2
OK, I guess nothing should surprise me anymore, but I am surprised nevertheless that there was so little attention given to a recent article in the New York Sun and a radio interview on ABC News Lateline Australia by Dr. Daniel Pipes in which he says

"Civil war in Iraq, in short, would be a humanitarian tragedy but not a strategic one."

To his credit (yes, I am being sarcastic), Pipes does admit that

"Well, let me start by emphasising that it is a humanitarian disaster and in no sense do I want one to take place. It's a horrible prospect."

Before continuing on to say

"Should, however, it take place I don't, think from the point of view of the coalition it is necessarily that bad for our interests."

I somehow think most Iraqi's would be quite relieved to hear of Dr. Pipes' concern for their welfare in a civil war fomented by U.S. intervention and disdain for postwar planning.

Dr. Pipes believes that civil war will serve coalition interests in so many ways. An incomplete list of the good things (strategically) are as follows:

* Instead of attacking coalition forces, warring sectarian groups will attack each other!

* Effectively shutdown the rush to the formation of Democratic governments in middle east countries that have so far been electing and legitimizing radical Islamists!

* Reduce Western casualties outside Iraq {because} when Sunni terrorists target Shiites and vice-versa, non-Muslims are less likely to be hurt!

* Draw Syrians and Iranians into the conflict which increases the possibility of American confrontation with those two states!

In Pipes world, toppling Saddam was (or, at least should have been) the goal of the war with the rest left up to the Iraqis. He credits President Bush for the former and criticizes him for the latter.

As has been said so many times over the past few years, you just can't make this stuff up because no one would believe you. Check out the links for plenty more interesting ideas by Pipes. Quite the realist he is. Just be glad you're not an Iraqi... or an American soldier... or an American.

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m21239&l=i&size=1&hd=0
by voltairenet

"(JPEG)"

Between September 11, 2001 and September 11, 2002, Daniel Pipes became one of the main American commentators focused on terrorism and Islam. According to an analysis made by The Nation, which has just spoken about him in a very caustic way [1], during that period he appeared in 110 television shows and 450 radio programs. His editorials have been welcomed by the Wall Street Journal and Los Angeles Times, whereas the New York Post has included him among its journalists.

The Pipes Dynasty

This sudden mediatic glory is not casual. It is the result of his personal talent, an extensive formation and the prestigious sponsors he has. He plays a key role in the political strategy of the neoconservatives who govern in Washington and Tel Aviv.
To understand this career, we have to go back 30 years in time. In order to put an end to the Watergate crisis and the personal conflicts it provoked, President Gerald Ford took drastic measures in regards with the several republican trends that supported him.

On November 3, 1975, he got rid of his Secretary of Defense, James Schlesinger, and of countless collaborators. These measures were mockingly called the “Massacre of Halloween”. After this, Ford surrounded himself with a very limited number of officials who were actually the same ones that took power in year 2001: he appointed Dick Cheney Secretary General of the White House; Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense, and George H. Bush (father), director of the CIA [2].
A press campaign organized by friendly associations alerted then the public opinion to the underestimation of the red danger on the part of the CIA. By making people believe he had yield to pressures, President Ford authorized the creation of an independent committee to assess the Soviet threat. Its director was Harvard professor Richard Pipes.

He formed a team, known as Team B, which was made up by the staunchest supporters of the Cold War, among which we have General Lyman Lemnite [3] and young Paul Wolfowitz. It was like this that the Pipes’ Report, published in Commentary, the magazine of the American Jewish Committee founded by Irving Kristol, allowed the Ford Administration to resume the arms race.
Richard Pipes had a firstborn child: Daniel. He studied the history of Medieval Islam in Harvard and distinguished himself in the university for his opposition to the leftist demonstrations against the Vietnam War.

In 1981 he published Slave Soldiers and Islam, his first work, an academic and well-documented masterpiece where his political convictions were still not present. It was written before the 1979 Iranian Islamic revolution, the fact that would mark the birth of the analyst’s convictions. In 1982, when his father Richard joined the Reagan’s administration, Daniel Pipes did the same thing and worked for the analysis team of the State Department. He devoted a lot of time to his second book, In the Path of God, which was published in 1983 and increased his concerns with regards to Muslim fundamentalism by following its escalation in a dozen of States. A phenomenon that, according to him, was extremely directed to the oil incomes Arab states began to have after the war in Kippur.

A Compromised Intellectual

After leaving the State Department in 1983, Daniel Pipes worked as a professor in several universities, such as the United States Naval War College, but he felt he was marginalized in the academic field. He stopped publishing university texts and chose to write articles focused on several teams: terrorism, Israel, the case of Salman Rushdie, which he published in Commentary [4].
His options have not always been the best: he exaggeratedly praised the merits of manuscript From Time Immemorial, a work about the Zionist colonization of Palestine written by Joan Peters.

However, his book was very criticized by some important journalists who analyzed its blatant lies, its obvious mistakes and its plagiarism. Pipes’ interest on the Israeli issue began to come to the surface step by step. After criticizing the mediatic treatment given to the war in Lebanon, which damaged Israel’s image, in 1988 he published an article in the New York Times where he rejected the idea of a Palestinian State that would be a «nightmare» for its inhabitants: according to him, such solution would «affect Arabs more than Israelis» because Palestinians would be forced to live under the control of a terrorist organization, Yasser Arafat’s PLO.
However, Daniel Pipes could not be considered as an unconditional supporter of the Israeli government. He has actually criticized it sometimes, especially when he has reproached it for not repressing Palestinian populations enough. Pipes believes Palestinians must be annihilated and he has accused academicians such as Rashid Khalidi of making statements justifying violence.
According to Juan Cole, professor at the University of Michigan, «one of the things Pipes means when he accuses university professors of supporting terrorism, is that we reject his approach to see all Palestinians as terrorists.».

"(JPEG)"
Robert Strausz-Hupé

By the mid 80s, Pipes moved to Philadelphia where he became director of the Foreign Policy Research Institute - FPRI of the University of Pennsylvania, an institution created by geopolitician Robert Strausz-Hupé who would be became its eminence grise. Founded in 1955, the institute has been publishing magazine Orbis since 1957.

Its first number included Strausz-Hupé’s manifesto: L’Equilibre de demain [5]. In it he expressed the following: «Should the coming world order be an American universal empire? It should be for it would hallmark the American spirit. The coming order would be the last phase of a historical transition and it would put an end to the revolutionary period of this century.
The mission of the American people is to eliminate nation-States, to lead hopeless countries to form wider unions and stop, through its power, the trifling attempts to sabotage the new world order for they offer mankind nothing but a corrupted ideology and brute force…For the next fifty years, the future belongs to the United States.
The American empire and mankind would have no clashes, but would be two names for a same universal order guided by peace and happiness. Novus orbis terranum (New world order)»
. Later, Daniel Pipes published again this manifesto. From 1986 to 1993, Daniel Pipes was editor in chief of Orbis. During these years, he published several articles in it welcoming the support of Iraq against Iran, such as the one titled The Baghdad Alternative by Laurie Mylroie [6]. In addition, and along with this young woman, he wrote an article in The New Republic about this topic too [7].
In 1990 he published an article in the National Review titled “Muslims are Coming! Muslims are Coming!” in which he expressed his alarmist opinions about this issue. He wrote: «Western Europe societies are not well prepared for a massive immigration of people of matt skin that cook rare dishes and do not follow German hygienic norms [8.
In this period, his books and articles distinguished themselves for its extremely hard positions criticizing Arab countries, whether it was Syria, Iran or even Saudi Arabia, a Washington’s ally. Since then, he alerted to the threat «Muslims of the United States» would represent for the American security. Thus, in an article published in Commentary he opposed the «prerogatives» given to Muslim American organizations due to the discrimination they said they suffered [9].

By supporting his friend Steven Emerson’s idea, who is also an expert on terrorism, Daniel Pipes told the «USA Today» that the 1995 attack in Oklahoma City proved the West was being attacked and fundamentalists «were targeting them». In 1990, Daniel Pipes founded a section of the FPRI, the Middle East Forum (MEF) to «promote the American interests in the region». In 1994, it became an independent association that some time later published the Middle East Quarterly and, since 1999, the Middle East Intelligence Bulletin [10].

In 1997, Daniel Pipes was involved in the creation of the US Committee for a Free Lebanon (USCFL) along with banker Ziad K. Abdelnur, an expert of the Middle East Forum. Daniel Pipes and the experts of the FPRI, the MEF and the USCFL were very active in the work of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP) where the most outstanding hawks and the cream of Likud gathered [11].

"(JPEG)" Daniel Pipes became famous as a hunter of the «fifth column» that emerged in American universities. In 2002, he created a section of the MEF, the Campus Watch, «an organization openly aimed at reporting the wrong analysis and the political distortions regarding Middle East studies». According to The Nation, one of the first measures taken by the organization was to open «McCarthy-styled-files» to the different professors they suspected were not quite pro-Israel. As a result, more than a hundred academicians contacted the Campus Watch for they wanted their names to be added to the list. This made Daniel Pipes furious and he described them as «advocates of the suicide attacks and the militant Islam».
Likewise, he used other terms such as «self-hating» or «anti-Americans». In an article titled Americans at Universities who hate the United States, he made fun of all those who, like Noam Chomsky, has denounced the American intervention in Iraq refusing to see the «direct threat» that Saddam Hussein represented to the United States. To spread the idea that academicians and students were blind regarding the Islamic threat, he counted on Martin Kramer’s assistance, current editor in chief of the Middle East Quarterly and the Stanley Kurtz, a member of the Hoover Institution and collaborator of the National Review Online.

According to The Nation, his theses had an exceptional mediatic coverage from «the MSNBC to the NPR». The Washington Post devoted its first page to him and even the debate made it to the Congress: a project to create a consultative committee, whose members appointed by the government would be in charge of supervising the related-to-the-Near-East- educational programs financed with federal funds to thousand of students, was being analyzed.
From that moment on, all programs had to «include all viewpoints» and not «only the criticism against the American foreign policy», as explained by Stanley Kurtz in the House of Representatives in June 2003 [12].

Daniel Pipes was recently included in the list Jewish diary The Forward makes with the names of the 50 most influential American Jewish [13]. His appointment to the US Institute of Peace (USIP) made by President Bush has upset the Muslim community, especially the Muslim Public Affairs Council.
This financed-by-federal-funds-think tank is aimed at promoting «a pacific solution to international conflicts», a concept that has nothing to do with Daniel Pipes political thought: actually, in February 2002, Pipes wrote that «diplomacy rarely ended conflicts» [14]. Just after joining the USIP he focused in purging the list of collaborators. Thus, he excluded the Center for the Study of Islam and Democracy which, according to him, was a pro-terrorist group infiltrated into the venerable public institution [15]. He left the USIP at the beginning of 2005.

The thinker of Islamphobia

Daniel Pipes is the author of several concepts that have been imposed in the public debate.
Above all, he is the inventor of the «New Anti-Semitism» [16]. This term is used to identify the opposition of American Muslim pressure groups against American Jewish pressure groups regarding the Palestinian issue. It is an amalgam between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism that has been quite used lately. He is also the inventor of the «Militants of Islam» [17].
The expression identifies those Muslims who, not satisfied with their domestic prayers, join community organizations and defend the rights of the Palestinians to the detriment of the Israelis supported by the United States. It creates a new amalgam between Muslim identity, the struggle against the State of Israel, and the challenging of Washington’s policy. This presents those Americans of Muslim religion as traitors, mainly.

Finally, he invented «the Middle East complot theory». The Arabs, who refuse to accept their incapacity to solve their problems, imagine they are victims of Western complots [18].
In 2002, Daniel Pipes went to all radio and television stations to campaign against The Great Imposture, a work about September 11 attacks and the change of regime that took place in the United States afterwards [19]. By having no arguments at all to oppose this book and wrongly believing the author was Arab, he made emphasis in seeing it as an example of the conspiracy of Arab intellectuals living in France.
His judgment was used in France by Guillaume Dasquié and Jean Guisnel [20] and later by Daniel Leconte [21].

In 2003, he was invited to the most important Arab political show, The Opposite Direction(Al-Jazeera), to participate in a debate with Thierry Meyssan. Yet, he couldn’t go for he was waiting for his USIP appointment confirmation by the Congress. To replace him, he sent his loyal assistant, Jonathan Schanzer [22] who couldn’t refute the debated book.
In France, Pipes counted also on the help of his translator, Guy Milliére, to spread his ideas. He published «Ce que veut Bush», an apologetic work based on interviews with Daniel Pipes, Paul Wolfowitz, etc. [23].

Daniel Pipes’ obsession is Islamphobia. In 1999 he published an article in The Forward where he stated: «Muslims who hate the United States and, especially, the Jewish people living there, are increasing and they are becoming more powerful thanks to the protection that the democracy and the indulgence of a pluralist and charitable society offer to them».
September 11 attacks strengthened the convictions of this analyst and increased his supporters too. For him, 9/11 allowed him to publish in 2002 Militant Islam Reaches America, an up-to-that-moment «unpublishable» book that alerted to the fact that Muslim American populations included an «important number» of people that «supported the goals of the planes hijackers», that «hated the United States and, after all, wanted to turn it into a Muslim country».
Jim Lobe, of Inter-Press Service agency, has said he received a proposal of a subsidy project in which Daniel Pipes proposed the creation of «The Islamic Progress Institute» that «could work on a moderate, modern and pro-American approach» on behalf of the Muslim community. According to him, Muslim fundamentalists were «Nazis», «potential murderers», that represented a «real threat» for Jewish, Christians, women and homosexuals.

The war in Iraq has been the moment of glory for Daniel Pipes’ theories for it has been «a unique opportunity to replace the most violent regime of the world». Since the fall of Saddam Hussein’s regime, Pipes has spoken about this issue and has actually stated that Iraq would need a «strong man with a democratic spirit» for Iraqis «have the conspiracy theory in their minds» and are not ready to govern themselves as Westerners do.
Even today, in the New York Sun, he has said the name of the person he would like to see in such a post. The fact that this person is a military man is not surprising. Former major general Jassim Mohammed Saleh al-Dulaimi is known for not participating in the atrocities committed by Saddam Hussein’s regime as well as not having radical ideological convictions and his well known social position [24].



[1] “Neocon Man”, by Eyal Press, The Nation, May 10, 2004

[2] See our work: “Washington’s manipulators” by Thierry Meyssan, Voltaire Network, January 11, 2005. Portuguese version: Os senhores da guerra, Frenesi ed., 2002

[3] Regarding General Lemnitzer, see: “When the American General Staff planned terrorist attacks against its own population”, by Thierry Meyssan, Voltaire Network, November 5, 2001

[4] French magazine Commentaires of Raymond Aron and Jean-Claude Casanova is extremely linked to Commentary. Cf. «La face cachée de la Fondation Saint-Simon», by Denis Boneau, Voltaire, February 10, 2004

[5] The Balance of Tomorrow, by Robert Strausz-Hupé, Orbis, 1957

[6] “The Baghdad Alternative”, by Laurie Mylroie, Orbis, 1988

[7] “Back Iraq”, by Laurie Mylroie and Daniel Pipes, The New Republic, 1989

[8] “The Muslims are Coming! The Muslims are Coming!”, by Daniel Pipes, National Review, November 19, 1990

[9] “Are Muslim Americans Victimized?”, by Daniel Pipes, Commentary, November 2000

[10] The Middle East Forum counts on the following experts: Ziad Abdelnur, Mitchell G. Bard, Patrick Clawson, Khalid Durán, John Eibner, Joseph Farah, Gary Gambill, Martin Kramer, William Kristol, Habib Malik, Daniel Mandel, Laurent Murawiec, Daniel Pipes, Michael Rubin, Robert Satloff, Jonathan Schanzer, Tashbih Sayyed and Meyrav Wurmser

[11] “Un Think Tank au service du Likoud”, by Joel Beinin, Le Monde Diplomatique monthly, July 2003

[12] “Funding Anti-Americanism - Title VI and radicalism in Middle Eastern studies”, by Justin Peck, Concord Bridge, October, 2003

[13] “Forward 50”, The Forward, November 14, 2003

[14] “The Only ’Solution’ (for Israel) is Military”, by Daniel Pipes, New York Post, February 25, 2002

[15] “The US Institute of Peace Stumbles”, by Daniel Pipes, The New York Sun, March 23, 2004

[16] “The New Anti-Semitism”, by Daniel Pipes, Jewish Exponent, October 16, 1997

[17] Militant Islam Reaches America by Daniel Pipes, W. W. Norton ed., 2003

[18] The Hidden Hand by Daniel Pipes, St Martin’s Press ed., 1996, and Conspiracy, Free Press ed., 1997

[19] L’Effroyable Imposture, by Thierry Meyssan, ed. Carnot, 2002. English version : 9/11. The Big Lie, USA Books, 2002.

[20] L’Effroyable mensonge, by Guillaume Dasquié and Jean Guisnel, ed. La Découverte, 2002 (work censured for libel in a trial at the XVII Chamber of the Tribunal Correctional of Paris, TGI )

[21] “Le 11 septembre n’a pas eu lieu”, Théma gathering produced and conducted by Daniel Lecomte, Arte, 2004

[22] After an 1.30 hours of debate, a poll made to a group of television viewers showed that Mr. Schanzer had convinced 17% of them whereas Mr. Meyssan had convinced the 83%. The show, which reached an extraordinary audience rating, was watched by 70 million people

[23] Ce que veut Bush, by Guy Millière, La Martinière ed., 2003. He also published Qui a peur de l’Islam?, Michalon ed., 2004

[24] “Is an Iraqi strongman emerging”, by Daniel Pipes, New York Sun, May 3, 2004. The Jerusalem Post published this article the next day

by Haaretz comments
Mr. Burston in all your anger at Pipes`s audacity to confront what he sees as the major stumbling block to peace between Israel and the PA, you are doing exactly what he says Israel continues on doing - dancing around the real problem. Israel is a country at war (and yes I too am in the USA and have the nerve to comment)but Israel doesn`t seem to think so and because of that there is no winner and no looser, so there is no possibility to make peace.Pipes is absolutely 100% correct in asserting that first a war must be won and then terms for peace are determined. Instead of lambasting Pipes for daring to comment from outside of Israel, you would be better advised to listen to him. After all only he predicted 9-11 years before it happened and then too people berated him for daring to speak about the danger we faced. Like it or not Pipes knows the ME, he knows radical Islam and he does all that from Philadelphia.
by Would make the world safer
This is one of the major right wing sleazebag players in the neoconservative Project for the New American Century:
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1316
by the pipes, the pipes are calling
If you want to understand Pipes, Ann Coulter, Horrowitz, Michael Savage or any other extremist right-wing public speaker, follow the money.
They are essentially professional wrestlers making hyperpolic statements that they know will offend since it makes for exciting viewing and if they didnt do that they wouldnt get invited to be on as many shows or have columns in as many papers and would make a lot less money.

Taking Pipes seriously is like believing that professional wrestling is real. That doesnt mean that a few crazy people may not buy into him enough to defend him and that does perhaps make him slightly dangerous (one also has kids killed every few years atempting professional wrestling moves too) but the best way to fight someone like Pipes is to ignore them since negative attention is still publicity and its positive publicity for his core audience who want to hear the offensiveness (similar appeal to Howard Stern or shows like Family Guy I guess)

Censoring comments of those who like Pipes is also obviously counterproductive since the whole right-wing myth that Rush perfected and Savage, Coulter and Fox News use all the time, is that the right is being oppressed and silenced by a politically correct elite Left. While the Right media will ignore large antiwar protests and anything real from the left they love the protests against Pipes or Horrowitz etc... since the feeling they are playing to essentially is to make right-wingers associate Leftism with the attitudes of a pedantic grade school teacher or perhaps even people's parents (mixed with a belief that the root cause of the pedantic nature of the left comes from some evil force like Communism, Socialism or even worse tollerence of Islam as a religion).

Aside from the controversy and hyperbole that brings in the money, Pipes also does have a bit of an intellectual following from his pre-celebrity existance. It is a following that should be familiar to any sectarian on the left since it involves a single pressumption (Islam is evil and antiSemitic, makes people violent, and Muslims cant be trusted or negotiated with) and then collects data to prove this with selective analysis of history, selective quotes from the press (through things like MEMRI) etc... One can do this with any argument and even produce papers that seem intellectually rigorous if the stated argument of the paper is only indirectly the real argument. Lets say I want to argue that Communists cant be trusted ever and Anarchists who trust them are doomed, or I want to argue that Christianity is not compatible with the equality of women and tollerance of homosexuality, or I want to argue that Zionists are really Nazis. The first think I do is find some facts that suggest the argument (in the Christian case one can take quotes from Leviticus and other quotes about having to take the bible literally) and then if I want it to sound academic I form an argument that can be proved from those facts (maybe that homophobia grew in Western Society specifically because of the biblical text wheras one doesnt see it in the same form in societies not influenced by Christianity) and then make sure that all aspects of the argument are qualified in away that cant be attacked academically. Finally once the paper is accepted I can go popularize my own writings but actually say things that are not logical conclusions from the text but seem to be backed up by the audience who will never read the more academic text (perhaps talk about how Chirstianity and Judaism will never be compatible with tollerence because the homophobia and sexism is in the religious texts themselves). If one instead took the directly antiSemitic lines in teh New Testament and made the argument about Christianity never being compatible with tollerence of Judaism (which was Herzls argument for Zionism) you would get good counter arguments today since people understand that even if Christian texts may have caused much of the antiSemitism of the Middle Ages that doesnt mean that the religion has to take those speicfic lines in that specific way and most Christians today are not antiSemitic anymore. But when the public knows a lot less about the subject you can get away with what Pipes gets away with and promote Islam as evil and dangerous by taking out of context small groups and societal problems in most Islamic societies and pass them off as being the main things that Islam promotes (the Nazis use similar ways of demonization too so it's easy to see that any crazy hateful argument can be promoted and used to rally bigotry and still pretend to be backed up by academics and logic).

Probably shouldnt have argued against Pipes in this way since arguing against him essentially legitimizes his views when they are best ignored (for the same reason one should ignore Hollocaust deniers, people claiming slavery was a good thing etc...) since having a sane debate with someone this crazy makes people assume that there actually is an argument (thats why NASA recently disowned a book trying to argue against people who believe the moon landing never happened).

Unfortunately in Pipes' case his ideas are due for a huge boost in the next years as Fox News increases the volume on the antiMuslim hatred to allow a US withdrawl from Iraq (a case where the ends are good but the means dispicable) without the Republican base seeing the withdrawl as a loss. The new talking point will be that the US goal was solely to get rid of Hussein and if those crazy irrational Muslisms want to kill each other..... US talk of WMD and regime change in Iran will effectively neutralize the rest of the media's ability to talk about Iraq war lies and losses since with a war there likely, the risks are high enough, who wont be talking about Iran and as with Iraq the talking points will be about antiwar activists wanting to oppress women, gays and Christians. Pipes will get a lot of time on CNN to debate against those arguing against war and Iraq will not get discussed since the moderators will claim that is changing the subject and the new topic is the horrid state of Iran thats threatening the world with WMD, opressing its own population.... Perhaps there will even be Fox News and CNN shows in the build up to an Iranian war with the subject "how do we deal with the problem of Islam" (in the exact way that the Nazis put forth the question "how do we deal with the problem of the Jews"), with Pipes arguing for no sympathy for the evil bastards (maybe put all US Muslims in prison camps) while the liberals argue that maybe expulsion or conversion is better (isnt that the immigration debate right now but in simplified terms). Ok... things may not get that bad (Iranian oil control with China as an alternate consumer may prevent a war and the Christian right may focus more on attacking gay adoption during the next election rather than attacking Islam) but a ramp up in antiMuslim sentiment as the Iraq war ends (to make it seem less of a loss) is very very likely.
Whats with the shit, unrine and death talk...
Such language shows you hate him but doesnt so much to convince others of anything.
Pipes' antiMuslim views are a serious danger to Muslims in the US and around the woirld but one isnt going to counter him by saing things that make those who already hate him say "right on" but dont actually do anything to convince anyone else and if anything seem intended to provoke his supporters (and thus increasing his effectiveness) rather than pushing him out of the limelight.
"... [Pipes led] Team B, which was made up by the staunchest supporters of the Cold War, among which we have General Lyman Lemnite [3] and young Paul Wolfowitz."

"General Lyman Lemnite" is Lyman Lemnitzer, the Joint Chiefs nutcase who tried to railroad executive approval for Operation NORTHWOODS (a massive CIA black ops terror campaign against American citizens that was to be blamed on Cuba, resulting in massive public support for an invasion of Cuba). The footnote didn't really spell this out. It makes perfect sense that Pipes, Wolfowitz, etc. were once babes bopping on Lemnitzer's knee absorbing his diabolical realpolitik. And what does this imply about 9-11? Yupp, you got it...

To um-blech:

"Taking Pipes seriously is like believing that professional wrestling is real."

This is a perilous analogy. I've known pro wrestling fans who know perfectly well it's a staged farce but enjoy the spectacle anyway. The certifiable morons who DO think it's real are a fringe group who don't pose any larger threat. The certifiable morons who take Pipes etc. seriously, OTOH, seem to number in the tens of millions and are every bit as menacing as their counterparts in Germany who took Goebbels' mouthpieces seriously. Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly, etc. have a combined media presence that is staggering, verging on inescapable, and they're not just tattooed zoo exhibits. They're mainstream political "commentators" who've succeeded in eroding the standards of responsibility for their craft to the point where they can chuck logic, reality, truthfulness, and common sense out the window and just aim straight for the gut level of their audience. Imagine the outpourings of ridicule we'd see if leftist commentators stooped as low. This is actually a brazen display of the classic psychological theory of Fascist Era propaganda, a la "when reframing issues, stay away from substance; create images" and "mob psychology must focus on emotion, not facts. Since the mob is incapable of rational thought, motivation must be based not on logic but on presentation" ( http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles/O-Shea_Doors.htm )

The seriousness of the threat posed by these clowns is almost impossible to overstate, and ignoring them WILL NOT make them go away. As far as they go, I think your counterstrategy ideas are thoughtful, but they aren't the full answer. I don't know what to do about these guys, but I'm pretty sure dismissing them as circus side-show freaks isn't wise
by Tia
"Dr. Pipes goes on to admit "a certain frustration" with the apparent unwillingness of Israelis to go out there and do the right thing: bring the Arabs to heel, by use of overwhelming force."


This is an interesting comment. If anyone reads the weekly reports of Israeli "war crimes" posted at this site, it is clear that many already feel that Israel is using overwhelming force. It doesn't take careful analysis or examination of Israels military superiority however to show the tremendous restraint of the Israeli government- thus the criticism by Pipes. If the Israeli government wanted to use overwhelming force- it is within their capacity. If the Israeli government wanted to commit ethnic cleansing- it is within their capacity. Part of the frustration of right leaning Zionists is that Israel hasn't taken firm enough action to quell the violence. So think about this next time you criticze Israel for the "war crimes" of arresting criminals and searching houses.
So they haven't sent millions of Palestinians to the gas chambers, and that means they are showing "restraint"? That means there are no war crimes?

It's a logical fallacy to make such conclusions because they haven't taken the horror and oppression to the nth degree.
by Tia
Using hyperbole like "war crimes and atrocities" to include things like house searches and arrests desensitizes people to the real atrocities when they do occur. The inflammatory rhetoric (in both quantity and quality)of the anti-Israel contingent is completely out of proportion to the issues involved.
Yes, the Israelis have shown remarkable restraint.
by TW
...to milk another apologia out of something like this. Amazing, isn't it?
Are they restraining themselves from taking Jerusalem and any other area they want? Are they restraining themselves from denying palestinian sovereignty and a contiguous land mass? Are they restraining themselves from making military incursions into supposed palestinian territory whenever they damn well feel like it? Do they restrain themselves from committing repeated extrajudicial assasinations? Do they restrain themselves in applying their will with advanced weaponry that they deny the palestinians?

The only way you could say they have shown restraint is to argue that "well, they haven't slaughtered millions of palestinians in one fell swoop -- okay, they are not the devil incarnate or THE exact second coming of Hitler's Nazis." Or, you could argue that the palestinians are the bad guys in the equation and *deserve* harsher treatment from their benevolent masters who oh-so-kindly have not murdered all of their wayward children (yet).

If you feel that the palestinians deserve better, at least equal the subsidies and autonomy that israelis enjoy, then, no, israel has shown little to no restraint in its selfish power and territorial grabs.
by charismatic megafauna
The US gives some land to a group, right next to Canada where they smuggle weapons, but allows that group to maintain it's autonomy, despite the fact that in it's charter it specifically calls for the destruction of the US. The group starts launcing, I dunno, hypothetically, kassam rockets into the US, killing civillians. In fact, maybe your mother is killed. What would you do?
by bad analogy
Isreal didn't "give" any land to anyone. They've just taken land. And finally gave up on the idea that a few thousand settlers was worth the expense of protecting them in Gaza, hence the pullout there.

A better analogy would be the US in Iraq. Iraqis having already been there, the US being the new kids on the block. So, the rocket launching barbarians have killed my civilized cousin. My cousin being the invading US serviceman and the barbarian a nationalist Iraqi.

Now, "What would you do?"

I certainly wouldn't argue that the occupation should go on forever so that more cousins would die (not to mention Iraqis). I would argue it was/is time for Iraqis to have sovereignty once and for all and for all of the US cousins to let Iraq control Iraq.
by charismatic megafauna
Fine, the US gives the land back to the Native Americans (still not an apt analogy, since the land in Israel was British Mandate before, but that's not the point of this). The point is not targeting anyone, just having civillian deaths. I have no problem with the Iraqi resistance, it's their right, we started a war overseas. It's sad, I wish there was a nonviolent way to get the US out, but it's a war.
and likewise, I wish there was a nonviolent way to at least get Isreal out of Palestine, but it's a war

and what the Palestinians lack in airpower, etc., they attempt to make up for with suicide bombs, stonethrowing, etc, against softer targets

and back to Iraq, what the resistence lacks in airpower, etc. they attempt to make up for with IEDs and suicide bombs against softer targets

you fight with what you got when occupied by a heavily armed occupier
by TW
Thank you! I wouldn't have said it as well
by You have to use what yoou've got
You have to use what yoou've got against the occupier.
Right on.
by charismatic megafauna
Gaza is not occupied, and Israel is withdrawing from the West Bank...short term goal of Kadima is something like 10 settlements. But go ahead, keep killing CIVILLIANS while this is going on. Makes pefect sense.

So if you were driving through, not affiliated with ANYTHING, with 3 other people, would it be okay if you were picking up a hitchiker to blow all of you up. Or maybe if you're a student studying abroad and eating lunch in the cafeteria, you should be blown up. If you actually think this is justified...well, you're either in complete denial or a sick human being.
It is? I thought it was just making conspicuous noises about PLANNING to withdraw from the WB and meanwhile knocking off Al Aqsa Brigades leaders to prompt more "terror attacks" so they won't have to ( http://www.indybay.org/news/2006/04/1813212.php ). Why would CM want us to think Israel's withdrawal from the WB is a fait accompli, I wonder? Then she hits us with these ridiculous terror scenarios. Way more than half of Palestinian "terrorism" occurs on their side of the Green Line. If you visit Israel, don't go hang out with your Kach meathead relatives in their WB settlement. If you do and you experience a "terror attack," don't try claiming you "aren't affiliated with ANYTHING."
§.
by charismatic megafauna
Those weren't hypotheticals. The first was an attack on Hebrew University. The second is what happened on Thursday. And no, riding on a bus does not mean that you're affiliated with the State of Israel, so don't tell me it should be blown up. Oh, and sorry for people driving through the West Bank, I know, if you drive through a place you should be killed on the site. And "noise," is that like the "noise" of withdrawing from Gaza...oh wait, it happened. Whatever Israel does though, it must be wrong, or else you'd have to THINK. And for the record, I'm opposed to the settlements, but thanks for assuming I'm a Kachist.

It's also funny that you take out the crucial "martyrs" from the Al Asqua Martyr's Brigade, like they're just some innocent group just sitting around with officials just trying to be nice and...oh that evil Israel is trying to stop their...nice work.

You're lucky that this is happening overseas, and you don't have to worry about your loved ones being killed. It might interrupt your comfortable bourgeois life. It's funny, IndyBay has increased my general distaste for people. I oughta stick to goats.
You're of course obscuring the fact that "what happened on Thursday" did in fact occur in a West Bank settlement. If you infiltrate terrorists into their turf for forty years to drive them off their land by any means necessary, don't fucking turn around and bawl "criminal!" when they simply return the favor. Or if you do don't try telling me you're not a Kachist.

The Hebrew University attack you describe happened three years and eight months ago. That sort of thing is definitely the exception, even more so now. What I said stands.

"I'm opposed to the settlements"

You're full of mind-blowing bullshit is what you are. You can't feel that way and then turn around and blindly defend every letter of Israeli policy as you do. To oppose the settlements is to distrust and disown the Israeli government based on its policy track record of the past 40 years. I've pointed this out to you before

http://www.indybay.org/news/2006/02/1803727_comment.php#1804961

Other Jews have the honesty and strength to shake themselves free from your cognitive dissonance. Why don't you?

CM: "...is that like the "noise" of withdrawing from Gaza..."

What does withdrawing from Gaza have to do with "...making conspicuous noises about PLANNING to withdraw from the WB..."? You do know what 'WB' means, right?

CM: "You're lucky ... you don't have to worry about your loved ones being killed."

Actually, I have some family in Iraq, participating in the criminal conquest of a country they have no business being in, just like your "loved ones" in Israel. If they get killed over there, I won't be happy about it, but nor will I blame the Iraqi resistance. See, there's a crucial distinction to be made between "loved ones" and "those who are in the right." It's the kind of distinction criminal minds always get real sloppy with...

CM: "It might interrupt your comfortable bourgeois life."

So what professional career are you preparing for, CM? Lawyer? Doctor? University faculty? Can your parents afford to pay your tuition out of pocket (note: this is different from "are you getting financial aid?")? How much money did they bring in while you were growing up? Did you get an allowance? I didn't. My single mother couldn't afford it on her secretary's income.

Accordingly, I don't have a 'comfortable bourgeois life.' I made about 20K last year, BY CHOICE. See, growing up poor was actually a blessing. It gave me the depth to know that Americans today are despicable spoiled-baby asshole weaklings, little Marie Antoinettes, and I made a decision years ago that I would sooner die penniless lying in the gutter than join your club. As the years pass my sense that I did the right thing just grows by leaps and bounds. You people are Good Germans now. You've totally lost your souls.

Despite having grown up in the most affluent society and ethnicity in world history, CM, and on the opposite side of the planet from Israel, you still imagine Palestinian goat-herders have your back to the wall. This obviously has NOTHING to do with reality, so what COULD explain it?
by Tia
CM: It's funny, IndyBay has increased my general distaste for people. I oughta stick to goats.

Tia: I feel the same. I am gradually abandoning the notion that most people are basically good. About time I grew up. I waited long enough.

I read TW's post- the "poor suffering little old me" lines...it makes me ill. He's operating under the assumption that all Jews are rich- you know that, don't you? I'd love to fill him in on the missing pieces, but its not my story to tell.

Wednesday or Thursday? Both? Neither? Emah shelanu? Lo Emah shelanu? (did I get that right?)
Thine ye Thine, flying frogs, underaged drinking. Not a mango pickle in sight. Let me know.

BTW, check out the rabbits= poultry thread.
by another Zionist lie
Gaza is surrounded. Israeli troops and ordinance enter Gaza at will. This is occupation in all but name.

>You have to use what yoou've got against the occupier.

The oppressors have no rights which the oppresed are bound to honor.

Death to the Zionist entity.
by Army incursions will also stop
When the rockets stop, when the bombers stop, then the Palis will be free to trash Gaza on their own.
by violins not violence

Accordingly, I don't have a 'comfortable bourgeois life.' I made about 20K last year, BY CHOICE.

He works for the postal service. Yet his wife, a corporate attorney at Georgia Pacific, brought in another $300,000 to the household coffers allowing him to live in the lifestyle he preferred.

See, growing up poor was actually a blessing.

Oh poor widdle T Dubyu was a VICTUUUUMMMMM!!!! And he's getting religion on us.

It gave me the depth to know that Americans today are despicable spoiled-baby asshole weaklings, little Marie Antoinettes, and I made a decision years ago that I would sooner die penniless lying in the gutter than join your club.

And poor widdle T Dubyu the VICTUUUUMMMMM is not just a despicable spoiled-baby asshole weakling- hes a racist sexist homophobic despicable spoiled-baby asshole weakling

You've totally lost your souls.

And you were born without one.
by TW
Tia: "He's operating under the assumption that all Jews are rich"

No I'm operating under the assumption that US Jews at present enjoy the highest MEDIAN wealth and privilege of any ethnic group in history. That is what I have said repeatedly, that is what I mean, and it's much better than just an assumption. It's about as plain as the sun in the sky. It is possible, I suppose, that Asian-Americans have you matched or even beat, but still it's high time to drop the "down-trodden minority" shtick.

CM: "It's funny, IndyBay has increased my general distaste for people. I oughta stick to goats."
Tia: "I feel the same."

Clearly then, you expect to enter this leftist anti-imperialist forum and just palm off your favorite pro-Israel lies and supremacist assumptions without challenge, and if you can't now you're "downtrodden" again. This is what quintessential spoiled-baby Americans you are now.
by Tia
You are a garden variety standard 1950's issue bigot, and no amount of posturing will convince us otherwise.
by TW
This "he's just a bigot" rathole is the only one you have left at this point. Meanwhile it's like a piece of shit saying to a piece of cheese "eeyew, you SMELL!"
by Tia
You are playing the ad hominim games and I can too.

Nothing like your appearance on a thread to end any worthwhile dialog.

You can't go more than a paragraph without insulting someone, can you? And you have the most insidious technique- you gloom on to whatever real or perceived weakness or vulnerablity you see in your female opponents, and focus your attacks there-you can't win with facts, so you resort to insults.

Hell, I can't remember the last time you used facts in ANY argument....
Tia: "Hell, I can't remember the last time you used facts in ANY argument..."

Gee, that's funny. It sounds like that three pounds of hamburger meat piping up again. Go here (a.k.a. 'scroll up')

http://indybay.org/news/2006/03/1812510_comment.php#1813258

Which reminds me of my question at the end of that post, which you rats predictably slinked away from.

Despite having grown up in the most affluent society and ethnicity in world history, CM, and on the opposite side of the planet from Israel, you still imagine Palestinian goat-herders have your back to the wall. This obviously has NOTHING to do with reality, so what COULD explain it?
by Tia
...you still imagine Palestinian goat-herders have your back to the wall. This obviously has NOTHING to do with reality, so what COULD explain it?

Because it isn't JUST the Palestinians its the Arabs! We've answered this dozens of times. 21 Arab countries. 50 times as many people as Israel. 800 times as much land. Tons of oil. Tons of money. And then there's the 56 Muslim nations of the world, each commited to Israel's destruction (remember the Malaysian Prime Ministers speech?). We are talking over 1/3 of the worlds population vs. little itty bitty Israel.

And don't give me the "its only the poor little victimized goat herders'- every war Israel has fought has been against an Arab alliance.
by TW
So now it's "21 Arab countries" that you're fighting in Gaza and the West Bank? Nah, I don't think so. If it were, Hamas and Al Aqsa would have MUCH better weapons. Israel has succeeded in hermetically sealing Gaza and WB away from the rest of the Arab sphere. You've got them singled out now, and they're fighting back with everything they've got, which is next to nothing. It doesn't fit your bullshit scenario AT ALL, but that's no surprise. But of course this "21 Arab countries" lie isn't underdoggish enough for your rhetorical needs so you have to go for the even more obscene "50 Muslim countries" lie. Myuh-huh. Tell me, when has Indonesia made a peep against Israel? Shit they're even worse whores to US Empire than you are!

"...over 1/3 of the worlds population vs. little itty bitty Israel."

Uh-huh, 50 Third- and Second-World sandheaps against the combined military might of the Western global empires, for whom Israel is strategic beachhead numero uno, uh-huh. Let's see, 20,000 nukes against... oh, ZERO nukes! And that's just nukes. The conventional weaponry advantage is almost as extreme. Aw poor widdew undah-doggy Iswael!!!

"We've answered this dozens of times."

No, you've puked out this obscene talking-point BULLSHIT dozens of times. This is a devious emotionally manipulative evasion, not an 'answer' worth acknowledging as such. It hasn't worked before, it won't work now, it never will work. Just because you're such a willfully stupid bigot that you'll buy into it doesn't mean we are.
by Tia
It carried over 50 tons of advanced weaponry including Katyusha rockets, mortar shells, rifles, mines and anti-tank missiles. Fortunately, Israeli intelligence discovered it before it was too late.

It ain't for lack of trying. And if the PA hadn't swallowed up all their donations into various personal Cayman island bank accounts, there would have been more money to spend on advanced weapondry.
by charismatic megafauna
Thanks, Tia, for letting me choose what to fill in.

But here's what I will fill in: I too have a single mother with barely enough to support herself (making less then you, mister I'm so poor), so every penny going to school comes from me working or from financial aid, and right now I'm taking a quarter (or two years, haven't decided yet) off to make some money.

Now that that's cleared up...the rest of the arguement. People made noise about withdrawing from Gaza, and guess what...IT HAPPENED! Yes there are soldiers around the borders, that's what happens when rockets are launched, brilliant!

Dude, goat herders? I'd love to be able to make a living off of that.

Oh yeah, just cause your driving through Nabulus doesnt mean you're in a settlement, and it doesn't mean that you live there. You could be driving to get to Jordan. I'll give you the Hebrew University being a while ago, doesn't matter, cafes are still blown up, with the crime of people being there. Sometimes not just Jews, especially in a place of coexistance like Chaifa (one of the many reasons I want to spend more time there)

Oh, and more assumptions. I don't support every action of Israel. There was a time when I was anti-wall (then I saw the drastic decrease in lives lost, and now I just care about when the line crosses the border). I definitely do not support settlements, and I hope to one day do something for a group like Shalom Achshav. Shall I assume every extreme about you? Eh, I'm not going to bother.

PS-- Tia, Thursday I think, I've got Greens Wednesday, but I'll see if there's anything that's more important on Thursday that I can skip. I first need a PROMISE of no mango pickles, though. Speaking of Greens, time to go for me, I'll check out the rabbit thread later.
by charismatic megafauna
PS-- Goddamn, I've been losing the same assumption that people are inherintly good...it used to be a big one for me. I'm way too young to lose it! Evil IndyBay...
§?
by ?
"PS-- Goddamn, I've been losing the same assumption that people are inherintly good...it used to be a big one for me. I'm way too young to lose it! Evil IndyBay..."

Its strange that arguing with one person on a website can have such an impact considering all the actual horrors in the world (Putin, militias in Sudan, Berlusocni, Bush, Blair, Kim Jung Il, Charles Taylor.... rapists, seriel killers, child abusers...). If it takes TW to make you doubt the basic goodness of humans I dont know what to say.

To ramble on about nothing for a few sentences:
The stereotype in the US is that lieberals believe people are basically good whereas conservatives are those who have lost faith (perhaps someone who was mugged). But neither is the case. Reagan trusted the basic goodness of the US military, CEOS and groups like the Contras but saw people on welfare, people who are gay and of course Communists as evil incarnate. Liberals at the time did as much trust the Sandanistas, welfare recipients and the USSR as much as prioritize their politics based off a cost benefit anlysis (nuclear war being worse than the USSR). Radicals always mistrust those in power and usually only trust in the basic goodness of their specific group they work with.
The Palestine/Israel conflict as reflected in political activists in the US (and ignoring realities in the Middle East) is an ineteresting case of how people of all political persuations reflect their views of good an evil on others. Palestine/Israel is more important as a symbol than as a reality to those who have strong feelings about it in the US. To Pipes Israel is Judaism and standing up the evil Muslims and the welfare of actual Israelis is far less important than taking a strong stand against evil and for good. For many supporters of the Palestinians one gets the same feeling; where Palestinians are African Americans standing up to the white ruling class, Israelis a symbol of the deep self-inetrested hypocracy of upper middle-class liberals....The fact that there are two sides gives it power as a symbol.
by Tia
Its strange that arguing with one person on a website can have such an impact considering all the actual horrors in the world (Putin, militias in Sudan, Berlusocni, Bush, Blair, Kim Jung Il, Charles Taylor.... rapists, seriel killers, child abusers...). If it takes TW to make you doubt the basic goodness of humans I dont know what to say.

Ever read Diary of Anne Frank? At one point, after 2 years in hiding she wrote " In spite of everything, I believe that people are basically good". Indybay is the first chance I've had to communicate with people who are most likely sociopaths- yes, I've read history, but still, the concept of evil was really intangible, until it threatened to drive an icepick through my forehead for daring to disagree politically.

To ramble on about nothing for a few sentences:
The stereotype in the US is that lieberals believe people are basically good whereas conservatives are those who have lost faith (perhaps someone who was mugged). But neither is the case.

"The world is neither good nor evil. It is simply a place where good and evil exist." Much more mature attitude. I think that was Seneca.

Reagan trusted the basic goodness of the US military, CEOS and groups like the Contras but saw people on welfare, people who are gay and of course Communists as evil incarnate. Liberals at the time did as much trust the Sandanistas, welfare recipients and the USSR as much as prioritize their politics based off a cost benefit anlysis (nuclear war being worse than the USSR). Radicals always mistrust those in power and usually only trust in the basic goodness of their specific group they work with.

Until one of them turns out to be a mole and then their world collapses

The Palestine/Israel conflict as reflected in political activists in the US (and ignoring realities in the Middle East) is an ineteresting case of how people of all political persuations reflect their views of good an evil on others. Palestine/Israel is more important as a symbol than as a reality to those who have strong feelings about it in the US. To Pipes Israel is Judaism and standing up the evil Muslims and the welfare of actual Israelis is far less important than taking a strong stand against evil and for good. For many supporters of the Palestinians one gets the same feeling; where Palestinians are African Americans standing up to the white ruling class, Israelis a symbol of the deep self-inetrested hypocracy of upper middle-class liberals....The fact that there are two sides gives it power as a symbol.

I've heard that used in Berkeley a lot- the white colonialist European Jews exploiting the indigeneous brown Palestinians. Of course its a myth- the one thing the Arabs and Jews agree on is that they are descended from a common ancestor. And its not about color- there are black Ethiopian Israelis, brown Yemenite Israelis... It has always amazed me that a true atrocity like Darfur doesn't get nearly the press that the Israel/palestine issue gets- is it that people do not perceive that there is a clear good or evil? How can that be? It isn't just the tax dollars...
by TW
You don't even know what this number means, do you? 50 tons of ordnance is, like, ONE squadron of Israeli fighters all decked out for ONE sortie. 50 tons is a lot if it's, like, ramen noodles you have to eat or something, but modern battlefield operations go through THOUSANDS of tons per day, or even per hour. 50 tons is the IDF's idea of a mid-afternoon snack
by Tia
CM: But here's what I will fill in: I too have a single mother with barely enough to support herself (making less then you, mister I'm so poor), so every penny going to school comes from me working or from financial aid, and right now I'm taking a quarter (or two years, haven't decided yet) off to make some money.

I know things have been difficult- be brave be strong. Everything will work out eventually....fill in other inane but vaguely comforting platitudes. I wish there was a way I could help.
TW is an evil self centered and egotistical creep- we can't let him get to us.
by Tia
I can't deal with your gratutitous cruelty anymore
by and what do you get?
You move 50 tons and what do you get?
Another day older and deeper in debt.
St. Peter don't call me cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store.
by TW
"the concept of evil was really intangible, until it threatened to drive an icepick through my forehead for daring to disagree politically"

Who did that to you, Tia? A while ago this horrible Israel apologist named Becky Johnson popped up in a thread, and I said "oh shit not her again. how 'bout an icepick to the forehead instead?" meaning "jesus, would someone just kill me so I won't have to listen to this insufferable liar again" but that's been the only mention of icepicks into foreheads. It didn't have anything to do with you. You're turning out to be a real third-rate drama queen, you know it?
by Tia
Oh, excuse me. Was I "boot to the head"? Or was I "bash in your skull till even your mother doesn't think you're cute anymore"? Or was I "grind a log of shit into your face"?

You've threatened me so many times i don't even keep track any more. So don't get rightous...
by TW
But that's okay, just keep piling it on
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