Battlecry was effectively countered

I couldn't be there with you but I'm so proud of you! And great pictures too!

That is a future queen idol.

Pink leopard print umbrella...

We have nothing to fear.

kk.

They attracted 25,000 *paid* participants for the whole shindig.

We can't even attract 500 freebies.

What's failing here?

kk.

From the look of the pictures you took - it is pretty clear who the aggressors are - it does't do much for your cause when you have grown adults using mega-phones to scream at young people. Are those Middle School girls peacefully praying while you verbally assault them? Nice work - go home proud.

Its never to early to be spoken to as an adult, particulary when you're doing adults work. If those teen don't hear the truth from the get go they'll stay lost forever. No one ever did me any favours by treating me as a "teen"- its when they showed me the consequnces of my actions that i grew. Those kids are being taught to disclude and discount, and as far as I'm concerned it needs to be challenged unambiguously

yeah - my current landlords sort of have a culture like that. I think there are tons of people in the Silicon Valley area like this. I get pretty cheap rent at their oceanside vacation home, but when they come on weekends, they often invite me to their minimegachurch which has a similar 'youth ministry' focus. One of the 'worship team' ministers actually is in a rockabilly band and has hair like elvis which he is really into. They are really into Friday/Saturday night youth services. But of course, they stand for the same somewhat objectionable positions and advocate converting people from other religions - but they just spend 95% of their time speaking about mundane things. My parents quit churches because my father's family were christian scientists (he's had TB, measles, mumps, whooping cough), and my mother's lutheran church backed up hitler. This is why germans don't attend churches. I know if my german cousin were here he'd be freaked out by the photo of the masses inside. When I visited during the german Love Parade, he is already suspicious of the potential for DJs with bad intentions of surreptitiously leading the huge assembled group for evil purposes when they are in a tranced out mindframe.

THIS IS A GENERATION IN CRISIS
1 out of 11 attempt SUICIDE each year.
1 out of 10 fifteen year olds and younger have gone through family divorce in their life-time.
58% have been involved in objectionable content on the web.
40% have experimented with SELF-INJURY ("are "cutters").
Use of prescription DRUGS (Ritalin, anti-depressants etc.) by children/teens has increased substantially in the past few years.
THIS IS A GENERATION WITHOUT MORALITY
By the time the average child graduates from high school, he/she will have watched 19,000 hours of TV including about 200,000 sexual acts and 1 million ACTS OF VIOLENCE.
1 in 10 high school females have reported being RAPED at some point in their life.
Fear of violence in schools is now the leading "worry" of public school teens.
48% of high school seniors are SEXUALLY ACTIVE (had sexual intercourse in past 3 months).
THIS IS A GENERATION WITHOUT TRUTH
91% say there is NO ABSOLUTE TRUTH.
75% of teens in America believe the central message of the Bible is, "God helps those who help themselves".
53% believe Jesus committed sin (40% of born again teens believe Jesus committed sin).

Look at the stats they don't lie, there is too much sex, drugs and violence in our culture that is taking control of our youths minds. Do we as a nation really care where we will be in the next twenty years with the future upcoming generations? There is a cry in the hearts of our youth today that is one of searching for the truth in a world that says pre marital sex is ok but little does the media and all the promoters that say you can do whatever with your body care that 8,000 of us youth get a sexually transmitted disease a day. Battlecry for a generation is calling America to a higher standard of living, we refuse to live in a society that constantly says getting drunk, doing drugs, having premarital sex and engaging in violence is an alright way to live. A senior at our school just died from overdosing on heroine, and yet people are against this battlecry of saving a generation? There is too much pain, hurt, lonliness in the youth of today, they need help...and to this we pledge our battlecry to saving a generation!

Call us Christians whatever you wish( most end up calling us facists, etc but indeed those that do call us that really don;t even know what we stand for and end up making a judgement that is way overexaggerated based on what the media has told them not on the truth) , but deep down people know that there is truth in a world of lies...and that truth only exists in Jesus Christ. Instead of bashing Christians, research about who Jesus Christ really is...not what the media tells you to believe. check out this myspace for more info. http://www.myspace.com/letmehearyourbattlecry or check out http://www.battlecry.com

Actually, while there are indeed millions of teens who suffer from various problems such as their parents divorce, or alcohol addiction, this really must be put in context. Negative social indicators actually went down in the late 90s due to having a period with a good economy (or, other reasons I'd like to understand better). For instance, it is definitely true that teen pregnancy has been declining quite a bit since 1992. I know this doesn't make the situation any better for teens who still do suffer problems, particularly in the expensive Bay Area where people who even have college degrees such as myself can't afford a 1 bedroom apartment. There is little room for screwing up or lagging behind in California.

The government has been taking drug use statistics in the same fashion for a few decades, so these can be taken as reliable, even if factors such as students lying on the test could skew results.
And look at this - drug use was far far higher in the 70s, peaking with the generation that graduated in 1981. It reached a low in 1992 and has meandered around since then, with meth being paritcularly popular recently. (scroll down to page 235 in this long pdf) http://monitoringthefuture.org/pubs/monographs/vol2_2003.pdf

Religion is truely an opiate.

It's the left constantly on the wrong side of history. I love it that the freaks here think it's ok to scream at 14 year old girls.

And shouting at middle school girls proves what, exactly?

Face facts, the left doesn't have as big of a hold on SF as it used to. The left in SF is aging and old. Younger people that live in this city are much more conservative. It's a new generation and the old hippies don't want to give up their power. They are very very old and out of it.

The left in SF just shows itself for who it is. Old, tired and fugly. Even Joan Ryan (or was it CW Nevius?) in sfgate.com that the protesters are all old gray haired people. Younger people in the Bay Area are much more conservative.

Thank goodness.

And hopefully, we'll see some changes soon in our elected officials. No more Tom Ammianos, no more Chris Dalys. More conservative people will be elected. The old guard is rapidly changing around here.

History has shown that every time the Christians are in charge there is a bloodbath: inquisition, witch burning, holocaust, missionary zealots who came to the "New World" with armies that slaughtered indigenous people for their version of God's will. The irony is that they dump the New Testament Gospels and revert to the Old Testament where you find passages like: Num 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
Yet Jesus told us to turn the other cheek, to love our neighbor as ourself, to leave to Ceasar what is Ceasar's.
I am afraid that these Old Testament "Christians" are dangerous. They are teaching their children to be wariors in a new crusade and Battlecry is the coming out of their plan to make the world in their image.

They want to have their say while they're still filled with the rapture!

I helped organize the counter protest agianst "BAtttlecry"- I didn t do it so you could offer non commentary like the above picture. It not helpful and it says nothing

Interesting to note that, in almost all posts from those ID'ing themselves as Christians, they speak w/ love & peace. Their counterparts are the ones (not all, mind you...) utilizing abusive, destructive, hate-filled, angry cursing attacks. What is it, a type of pre-emptive attack against the WOMD (Words of Mass Devotion)? Strike first out of fear you MIGHT be struck? Don't get me wrong, I know there are far right estremists in the same way there are far left (w/ frighteningly similar tactics), but those who practice true Christianity do so to get closer in their relationship with God, and do what's right for His people - not just for themselves.

Now, MY kids would not have responded the way the Rev.Judy says, and they went. They have a tendency to route anti-Bush rhetoric & pics to their peers, but they pray FOR him - for God to grant him wisdom in his job - just as they do for me, or you. What they got out of it was a feeling to the right to practice their belief, regardless of what they say - NOT anything against allowing others to practice theirs. As they noted, God loves us for who we are; but God loves us enough to not necessarily leave us that way. They know their God is one of love, that Jesus would not condemn you but welcome you with open arms. Our church is so diverse whites are a minority; our money goes to programs that weekly hand out food to the poor, provide drug rehab programs, computer training to those who can't afford it, education and alternatives to gang members who want "out", builds infrastructure in Mexican cities. Condemning the masses of Christians for acts of the minority is simply acting the way you CLAIM we do against non-Christians - yet you claim to be above it all. But that's OK - we love you, as does God, and we pray for you as we pray for all of us who are sinners - e.g., humankind.

Oh, and for the under-educated, raising your hands is a sign of submission, much like bowing or kneeling. The kids shown doing so are reflecting their abdication to their Lord; likening them to Nazi-ism simply shows your ignorance of those you persecute in the fear of your own persecution.

Judy - question for you - you state "History has shown that every time the Christians are in charge there is a bloodbath: inquisition, witch burning, holocaust, missionary zealots who came to the "New World" with armies that slaughtered indigenous people for their version of God's will"...hasn't every single president been a Christian? So, haven't we always had Christians in charge in the U.S.? And then does that mean for the past 200+ years we've been experiencing those phenomenon you cite in the U.S. - for the entire time? Are you saying that leaders such as Clinton & Kennedy who claim Christianity as their faith but were surely not Republican did as you are stating, or can you admit it's a tad of an exageration???

but here you go:

Catholics and genocide:
http://tinyurl.com/hmqel

Christians and witchburning
http://tinyurl.com/jxzp6

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

Christian genocide of native americans:
http://tinyurl.com/jfyej

Happy reading!

"hasn't every single president been a Christian? So, haven't we always had Christians in charge in the U.S.? And then does that mean for the past 200+ years we've been experiencing those phenomenon you cite in the U.S. - for the entire time?"

In the US? Why does the destruction have to be contained to the US? Disregarding this canard, the answer to your question is an emphatic "yes," and usually to the tune of much biblical drivel

William McKinley, blowing smoke out his ass to rationalize the conquest of the Philippines:
"The truth is I didn't want the Philippines, and when they came to us as a gift from the gods, I did not know what to do with them.... I sought counsel from all sides - Democrats as well as Republicans - but got little help. I thought first we would take only Manila; then Luzon; then other islands, perhaps, also. I walked the floor of the White House night after night until midnight; and I am not ashamed to tell you, gentlemen, that I went down on my knees and prayed Almighty God for light and guidance more than one night."

"And one night late it came to me this way - I don't know how it was, but it came: (1) That we could not give them back to Spain - that would be cowardly and dishonorable; (2) that we could not turn them over to France or Germany - our commercial rivals in the Orient - that would be bad business and discreditable; (3) that we could not leave them to themselves - they were unfit for self-government - and they would soon have anarchy and misrule over there worse than Spain's was; and (4) that there was nothing left for us to do but to take them all, and to educate the Filipinos, and uplift and civilize and Christianize them, and by God's grace do the very best we could by them, as our fellow men for whom Christ also died. And then I went to bed and went to sleep and slept soundly."

Thus was launched one of the most shameful criminal episodes in the annals of global expansionism, a veritable 'East Timor' of US-perpetrated mass slaughter in the western Pacific, reproducing the slaughter that had unfolded in North America for the previous hundred years and would make ever-widening sweeps of the planet throughout the next hundred, all with the smug "manifest destiny" approval of US Christian shitheads, to whom McKinley was speaking directly

Those kids were not screamed at. The religious crowd was simply drowned out.
Do not make assumptions.
No where in those pictures does it show people screaming at kids. As far as the comment about the arms or hands posing like Nazi salutes. It is appropriate to point out obnoxious religious symbolism. It is not only educational it is informational. I will not give anyone who salutes, credibility. If they want to reach out and tell us about this so-called Jesus Christ then do it maturely. Saluting like the hitler youth is a freakin weird act and a big turnoff. It will do the religious right justice to abandon their conventional ways and means for something not so flaky. Those kids were not innocent:
A counterprotester says: "I was watching those kids and one of the boys stuck his middle finger up at me, and called me a faggot. That is not christian nor mature."
The bottom line is the religious right is pushing there crap again. Just like the past. Living under the wrath of religion offers all those things listed in the post above. Teen pregnancy, drug abuse, gun and sex violence. People do weird shit when their confined to one train of thought.
If society wants kids and teens to do better then get rid of corrupt politicians, child molesters, sexual predators, kidnappers, murderers, and drugs. Open up free thinking and beliefs, and for christs sake actually fight the war on drugs. Don't just fake it.
Its freedom that makes people normal NOT forced religion.
My experiences with religion are: child molestation, lying and stealing preachers, and greed.
What are your experiences?

"THIS IS A GENERATION IN CRISIS"

It is, indeed. But what you don't realize is how the extreme right with their misleading rhetoric of "family values" are causing this crisis.
You are being denied "ownership" of your own body and your own mind. You are sacrificing your ability to make decisions regarding your own future to a church that may not actually care about you, and a government that certainly doesn't.

Pick and choice from your own religion- find the words that speak to you- disregard the rest. Explore the words of other faiths. No one group, no one god has ownership on the truth. There are many paths up the mountain. There are actions that bring us closer to the source of all light, and actions that push us away. I'd personally avoid anyone and any group that claims to have all the answers.

Previous generations fought , in the streets, and in the courts so middle school girls could have choice. Choice and freedom over their own bodies and own minds. You don't want or need birth control? Fine- but don't deny it to someone who does.

(Sigh) as for "lazy", just because I don't have time to be researching "proof" doesn't equate to "Laziness" - again, uneducated assumptions that you cannot justify unless you walk a mile in my shoes and have the work day I experience. But while researching, why don't you go ahead and find the works of Mother Theresa, of missionaries putting their lives in jeopardy to help others, of countries that put you to death just because you claim the Christian faith, of how leaders following Christianity got rid of slavery, opened up the right to vote AND abortion rights to women, fought against segregation, etc. Balance your argument, otherwise all you are showing me is that there are zealots who mis-use Christ's name to further their cause. Christ, if you read the NEW Testament and listen to His words (just Him, just focus on His words, not what the apostles said to really get why I follow Him) was all about love & peace. You haven't provided me any reason to believe He's not worth following.

why people of no religion or another faith will have to come to terms with YOUR religion and YOUR god.

You want proof then you discard proof. That's intellectually lazy MO.

What are your feelings towards Ron Luce's asssertions that he makes in the first Chapter of his book ? I'm referring to this passage
"People, the car is on fire and the youth of America are trapped inside. Suicide, abortion, alcohol, drug abuse, and violence are fiery flames licking at the wreckage of many young lives. ... Try to imagine a society that mocks the fact that 'under God' was ever even in our Pledge of Allegiance. Try to imagine the motto 'In God we trust' taken off our money. Imagine all references to Christ and His cross removed from all emblems and city logos. Try to imagine a world where a pastor can go to jail for saying homosexuality is wrong. Current news stories confirm that these unfortunate events are already happening here and in other nations around the world."
He appears to blame abortion (and hence the whole thrust of reproductive rights) for..I guess the decline of American youth.
Also he calls Homosexuality wrong....
What are your thoughts on this quote? And what sort of laws or endorsements for proposed laws do you expect to see this kind of thinking linked to?
Do you think it's okay to deny equal rights like marriage to queers?

Re: Here, I got sumpin fer the kiddies, heh-heh, heh-heh

Hopefully I'll answer the full question - and, thanks for asking. I'll have to cut & paste it to make sure I do rather than tab back & forward...

"People, the car is on fire and the youth of America are trapped inside. Suicide, abortion, alcohol, drug abuse, and violence are fiery flames licking at the wreckage of many young lives. ... Try to imagine a society that mocks the fact that 'under God' was ever even in our Pledge of Allegiance. Try to imagine the motto 'In God we trust' taken off our money. Imagine all references to Christ and His cross removed from all emblems and city logos. Try to imagine a world where a pastor can go to jail for saying homosexuality is wrong. Current news stories confirm that these unfortunate events are already happening here and in other nations around the world."
He appears to blame abortion (and hence the whole thrust of reproductive rights) for..I guess the decline of American youth.
Also he calls Homosexuality wrong..."

I think separation of church & state is important, and that the laws governing should focus on ensuring safety of the country's people. I've been thru the route of "In God We Trust" w/in my family (tell ya, diverse buncha folks we have in my clan!) where my eldest brother points out "not true" - the addition came later to our currency, as it did to the Pledge. I don't think that's where the focus should be - the acceptance of Jesus is in our hearts, not in organized religion (where most of the time Jesus' intent, I believe, gets lost; this is why many of those in mega-churches now see an underlying movement for small, home-based breakouts).

I believe Christians should be able to display their emblems and express their faith with the same amount of acceptance requested (demanded) by others. I don't think any of us should shove it under the other's noses (that includes praising of dildos, sistahs...) or enforce it onto others (it is to be our choice, choice got it? We were granted that freedom Day 1 from God...). In that same way, those who are offended within the context of their faith (not just Christians, but Jews, Muslims, etc.) should have the right to request that they not be forced to have (ads, tv shows, etc.) forced in front of them or their children. Those who WANT to see porn in front of them have forums where they can - having it appear in popups to unwitting children, nah I'd argue against that as against my (children's) rights.

If you're asking me if I think homosexuality is wrong, as I've told my boys, no more wrong than the myriad of sins we've all committed at one point of our life or another. Who's to say a lie, adultery, murder rank differently in God's eyes? The 10 commandments don't cite homosexuality, but they do cite monogamy (adultery, tho' my husband & I had an interesting difference of interpretation of that...!). If gays were allowed to marry, then would only those that have sex outside marriage be committing a sin? I don't write the rules, I just try to live them - and acknowledge that, while the Bible is to be seen as God's word, it was written by men (women, of course, would've gotten it right... ;-) ), so very open to interpretation & the possibility of the writer's personal beliefs. While I personalize them, I don't expect even the woman next to me in church to agree with my application - shoot, I believe in prior lives, VERY unpopular in Christianity. I re-read his post from what I cut & paste - did he say homosexuality is wrong specifically (or infer it) or point out the right of that man to say it was?

I don't think the choice for abortion is for the law to dictate, although I do believe the laws to ensure the safety of the woman are required. I think the choice is that of the woman, for her to decide if it is moralistically correct based on her underlying beliefs (e.g., if it's a child, or an "embryo"). It is a choice - one I made umpteen years ago, one I wouldn't make today after having children. Where the line gets confusing, to me, is that we have laws that are also based on the 10 commandments (thou shalt not steal, commit murder) that the masses agree with / don't question. Does the fact Christians belief life begins at conception override the beliefs of others that it doesn't, provide the right to declare it murder? To be honest, I struggle with that and would love balanced discourse (BALANCED being the operative word) on that...

I don't think enough children have parental guidance to provide them a basis to make a thoughtful decision before having sex - that's the fault of the parents. I do see increased desensitization (sp?) around violence, and like many of you see the stats / studies pointing to the source as video games and t.v. Is that because the kids aren't Christians or that parents aren't as involved as they need to be? I don't think that's the right question, but rather what society is doing to promote the violence (big business makes good $$ regardless of who it hurts) and whether or not we agree with the direction it's taking.

Do I think girls should be encouraged to be like Britney Spears and flaunt their pre-womanhood in an attempt to get a guy's attention of love? Puh-leez, they have enough issues to deal with around image and self to force that expectation upon them, but again, parental intervention & discussion around what being a woman MEANS helps offset the media. The media shows it because we accept it, are desensitized to it, and it becomes "normal" - but don't think I know of any self-respecting feminist that would encourage their daughters to dress that way. That's not even a Christian thing, that's a self-respect thing.

In other words, don't ask me for black & white - I see an entire rainbow of answers because we aren't God, we aren't perfect, we can only strive to do the best we can as His children. It's not speaking up (as you are) about our beliefs that causes stagnation or degradation of society; we have to have discussion to work out the details, not dictate to each other - and I think Luce is trying to get people off their butts and involved, rather than passively watch their children go to hell (as it were). It doesn't stop at morals, but morals guide what we do with the rest of it.

I know this is piecemeal as a response, but you asked a lot of things in one question, so I'm trying to hit them all. DK if that helps whatsover, so LMK if you require further clarity. And, again, thanks for asking...

In answer to yet another name-calling post...

Did I ask them to "come to terms" with my religion (a word, BTW, which I hate - I choose "beliefs" since I have many issues w/ organized religion) at any point that you ask that ?? I stated they haven't given me reason not to BELIEVE as I do - and I have the right to believe in Jesus, as you have the right not to. You are putting words in my cyber-mouth once again. I truly am sorry you have so much experience with the religious application of Christ's words but you really should try objectivity before labeling me - esp. since the last thing I'll bet you'd want is for me to label you.

"It's not speaking up (as you are) about our beliefs that causes stagnation or degradation of society" - Let me clarify/re-read & don't want to be misinterpreted - It's not speaking up about our beliefs - unlike what you are doing - ...etc., etc.

And thank you for the thoughtful repsonse. I' asking more questions these days than posing answers/asserions- just so you know, my positions of queerness/abortion and the position of faith relative to legality are all derived from a classicly secular position..I think health is a public issue, therefore abortion must and should be legal...I think observations of faith can and should be encouraged, I believe that free speech is not to be confused with unchallenged speech- when I speak of abortion as a potentially positive act, and I do that in public, I expect response...
most importantly- and this is where people's agitation is coming from- culture- a protest, a piece of writing, a church-can produce, propose and endorse new legal approaches. How did the architects of Manzanar, the Japanese internement camp, know that they wouldnt be villified for propsing it? They could look around at the popular, and extra legal expressons of racism, and draw the conlusion that it was okay to propose interning folks of Japanese descent simply because popular sentiment seemd to endorse it...so when I look at a gathering like Battlecry, the question i have is what will you vote for? Will you Who will you vote for? And can you exist with your faith meaningfully if others, who have different beliefs, continue to exist with theirs?

If you read the Bible correctly, we're taught >not< to hate. Which is what I'll show you now. True Christians/Christ followers do not hate you. In fact what you believe and do is something between you and God. Not us. We'll share with you what we believe and if you don't want to know it. Thats totally fine. However, we did pay fair and square to have the AT&T field. I don't think we would go outside of your events with signs downing what you're doing, but ok. Your thing. Anyway, Jesus still loves you.

...And as far as someone calling themselves a Christian and flipping you off/calling you a bad word. That isn't a true Christian. We all struggle to be more Christ-Like, if you were to meet a True Christ follower, one who knows the word and has grown in their faith, you would think differently of us. We're very loving and accepting. We're taught to love the sinner, but not the sin. I'm sorry if any of us offended you in harsh ways, they're still growing and learning and becoming stronger and better in their faith. Forgive them. Like God forgives us, again, and again, and again. However there is one thing He will not forgive, and this is Denying His name, and Denying Him.

You know he sent His only Son to die for us, so that we could live, insted of being judged right there on the spot and all being sent to hell? His Son was beat to a pulp for <u>you</u>, when you've done nothing to deserve it (myself included, I don't deserve it.)

I'm a Christian myself and I have about 2-5 same-gender-liking friends. We all get along, and they know what I'm about. I guess you're refering to Mormons as the ones you want to move away from? Check us out >Thoroughly< before you judge us. God will show the same mercy apon you.

Jesus still loves you.

Is NOT between me and God. I'm assuming you mean your Christian God. It's between me and my non Christian, non communal ritual that is largely conducted between myself ,my meditations and what I percieve to be a an integrated, benevolent cosmos. I have a spiritual practice that allows me to behold myself, seek accountability from myself and allows me to seek deeper knowlegde of myself. And connects me in meaningful ways to those around me. And...it isn't derived from Christianity a'tall.
D'you see why people get mad? Your comment sounds flip(the "your thing" betrays impatient contmpt and anger) and you're still tethering our anonymous and unknown-to-you belief systems to your God. Thats a rather passive form of control and possesion and it also seems condescending.

So I shared my posts w/ the sons who went to Battle Cry yesterday, and we had quite the rousing discussion over the dinner table (Dad hadn't read them yet).

On the subject of gay marriage, hubby was against (God bless the man, he's always been a tad homophobic, probably because too many proposed to him while we lived in SF), one son for, one against. As we began to discuss why, my spouse brought up the "degradation of moral society". I asked just how two gays/lesbians getting married hurt others? And, how was that different from allowing two different races and / or religious beliefs from inter-marrying? Shouldn't the limits be placed on all, rather than choosing selectively between which is right-er? Ah.....that would mean we couldn't be married because such a mixture could lead to moral decay....made him think about that quite a bit...

Abortion rights were the next topic. Black & white, yes? No. The factors of rape, teen pregnancies in homes where they would be shunned, malformed babies, mother's life risks.... Not as clear cut when you factor all that in. "Abstinence" they told us....ah, but what if you have no choice (rape, abuse)? Do you fault the woman and force her to bear the child of another under the shame & potential health risk? It happened to your cousin - she tried to commit suicide over the same - what about that? Hmm....

And, what about laws, hmm? Should they, as my spouse argues, be made to benefit the majority? What if that negatively impacts a minority - after all, slaves WERE a minority - should we have waited until their numbers grew to free them? Why so black & white & only two-sided? Why must it be the loggers OR the trees? Why not save the trees and re-train the loggers so it's a win-win for all?

And what about the evangelism, kids...."I am right, they are wrong" - are you their Judge? Do you somehow feel you've been granted that right by God? Or, is your role to love as Jesus did, to show that love in ways that you hope makes others WANT to claim Him as their Saviour? I don't remember any areas where Jesus got involved politically - as pointed out, he asked them to give Rome its due. He acted against the Pharisees (of which there remain many today...) for abusing His Father's house of worship, yes - these were "Followers" of God who abused their man-made power & leadership, and that was not their role. Look to Jesus' acts, we told them, not man's.....

I feel for Kristin, and many others, who openly post here as Christians. For some reason, more than any other religion, Christians are under an immediate microscope that determines whether or not they ARE Christ once they claim him - what is misunderstood is that while we claim Christ as our Savior, we are still very, very human, with all the faults associated with same. We don't speak as eloquently as if we were Christ, can't love as blindly as Him as much as we might try, we still screw up and sin - but yet, once we do, for some reason it translates into all Christians being persecutors, etc. Some of us "do" Christ's work better than others, some of us try harder, some simply feel by saying He's Lord they've done enough and can stop there. We are far from perfect, and know we never will be. We only know we are loved regardless of our imperfections, and are accepted because if His love, forgiven because of His sacrifices. Don't lump us all into the "bad" category any more than y'all want to be, and please stop making so many generalizations about us. Christianity is evolving, we are all learning, and all of us can only hope to do better than those before us.

Wow, did I expect there to be protestors in front of City Hall in San Francisco?. I mean, all I thought I was going to do was to get some teens to realize how important they are in the eyes of God, and how they had a voice in the community when it comes to their entertainment, and values. Go ahead and show me statistics showing the problems with our youth, but that wont convince me. I spend time with these teens weekly, and I can see and feel the statistics. Does a christian that follows the teachings of Jesus Christ look down upon a homosexual?. Not an informed christian. Not a mature christian. And many will say Jesus with their mouths, but deny him in their everyday life. Simple fact is that our teens just barely grasp the concept that there is a God who loves them. And as they walk with him, and study his ways and teachings, they become closer to him, and are better able to represent his way. Unfortunately, christians throughout the centuries have failed miserably in attempting to live this life. When in all actuality the concept is fairly simple. Love, the greatest of these is Love. It is not christians that have said, this is sin. It is the book they believe was written by God himself. Its the same book that says that liars are sinners, and murderers. Christians that put sin on a playing field, or sliding scale have neglected to understand the concept. We are sinners, which would put us in the needing a savior category. All I can say is this. I had to ask myself this question, is there a God?, and if so, who is he, and could it perhaps have been Jesus himself. I made a choice. Now, if the people of this world ask themselves the same question, it has been proven that not all will choose the same thing. But I have, and that makes me responsible to carry out what this God asks of me. And the God that I have chosen, the God of my heart, the God that loves me when I feel so unloveable, loves me the liar, the thief, the adulterer, the fornicator, the homosexual, the slanderer. And out of respect for his unconditional love, I will attempt in my flesh, to avoid these things that are killing me. And I will also love the man on the street corner with a needle in his arm. And try to see the man beyond the needle, beyond the addiction, beyond the street, to the man he could be through Christ. I will continue to pray for people that do not agree with this Love, and I will continue to disagree with christians, that point out sin, without recognizing their own, and without the Love God commands us to give. I did not go to San Francisco to see protestors, I came to love them. And I have gone in peace. And my teens under my care, set themselves apart this weekend. The kindness that these teens displayed this weekend, set them apart from who they thought they were, or what society has labeled them as. This weekend, they loved. As we left a popular fast food restaurant, a few teens asked for the manager. These same teens oferred to take trays from people they did'nt even know, and throw away the garbage for them. A few teens let people go in front of them in line, and even oferred to buy their lunch with their little five dollar allotment for the trip. The manager came to the counter with a concerned look, as she probably has many times in her career. Only to hear several teens, with piercings and weird hair say. "We just wanted to let you know, you guys were so fast, and you guys are so great". A little grey haired lady working there stated to me, "I just wanted to say, this is an outstanding group of kids you got here, they dont act like this, they just dont act like this". People of the world remember, that despite the immaturity of some christians, or despite the christians that say they are, and dont even know what it means. Some of us get it, and the greatest of these is love. God Bless you San Francisco, and thank you for allowing us to worship God in that beautiful stadium. I have never seen a home run hit in that park, but I believe I experienced something more on Saturday night, as thousands of teens raised their hands, with their eyes closed, and cried out to God their father. And if thats a nazi salute, then I have truly been deceived. And if this is what it feels like to be deceived, then I will die in this place. jC

I just wanted to share this great site called Religious Tolerance:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/

I am definitely on one side of this discussion and that is in favor of equal rights regardless of gender and keeping the state out of personal decisions.

But I think this site has a good balance of presenting both sides of important issues that are being discussed here. It's a great resource for greater understanding. It gives both sides on many issues and judges neither. (or at least I haven't found anything yet that seems like it.).

Here are two major issues where fundamentalist Christians and progressives often disagree. Have a look:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/homosexu.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abortion.htm

and about atheism:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/atheist.htm

prayer is a beautiful thing

http://www.religioustolerance.org/atheist1.htm
Madalyn Murray (later O'Hair), wrote a document used in the court case Murray v. Curlett, 1961-APR-27. It reads, in part:

"An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. An Atheist knows that heaven is something for which we should work now - here on earth - for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist thinks that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue, and enjoy it. An Atheist thinks that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment. Therefore, he seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An Atheist knows that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist knows that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man. He wants an ethical way of life. He knows that we cannot rely on a god nor channel action into prayer nor hope for an end to troubles in the hereafter. He knows that we are our brother's keeper and keepers of our lives; that we are responsible persons, that the job is here and the time is now."

Mo says "And what about the evangelism, kids...."I am right, they are wrong" - are you their Judge?" Who is the judge Mo? Has God not called us to judge by their fruits? You say don't judge but all throughout your post you have judged. You see we cannot live and not judge, to not judge we would have to say nothing about everything. You will say nothing against followers, wannabe followers and those who do not profess Christ or those who profess against Him. Just to say that there are 'hypocrites' is to judge. So let me ask you this, who are you to judge?

Mat 7:14-20 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

So abortion? Do you know that there are over 750,000 abortions in the usa today? That is over half a million deaths a year. Do you wish to die because you inconvience someones life? For the facts of rape I understand what you are speaking of, but there are orphanages, and I know for a fact that babies are adopted. Maybe not so much the older children as I wish there would be, but babies are being adopted, my pastor adopted a baby girl and it is a hard thing to adopt a baby girl because people want to adopt, and you will see it more as through pornography people's mind (and I am talking physical) is warped to where they can't have sexual intercourse in a regular way, or they become sterile because of it. Doubt me? Look it up.

Grace has a way of balancing out things. Do any of us deserve life? No, of course not. I know that you know that.

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"

But there is life and forgiveness if we will only turn from our ways.

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Now people, I am not here to slam on anyone, I am merely here to pave the way straight that has been shown cricked far to often.

I understand where you are coming from Mo and some of your words do ring some truth but they are also very confusing.

"Christianity is evolving, we are all learning, and all of us can only hope to do better than those before us." What do you mean? Evolving? Do you understand what evolving is? That is changing, do you think that Christianity changes? God said

Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Christianity does not change, it remains the same, and do not look to yourself to make such a decision.

Are homosexual acts, sex outside of marriage, pornography, and all sinful things wrong? Yes, made as simple as that, Christian's cannot deny that. But, that does not mean we are any higher or more loved by Jesus then they are. God loves the one who serves Him the same as the one shooting themselves up, or aborting their own son or daughter. But does He want them to continue in their ways? No. This is not about homosexuality, this is not about abortions, this isn't even about the person who lives a luke-warm christian life, this is about the love of Jesus Christ.

Romans 8

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Sonship Through the Spirit
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
From Suffering to Glory
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession *for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
God's Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:

"For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."*

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God only stands and waits for those who will seek after them, seek after God and He will lead you. Christian's do not make God nor do they make what Christianity is. Whether you find ones who claim and hate, or those who claim and love. What makes 'Christianity' is God and God is love.

I deeply apologize to all of you who were hurt by someone who claimed to be a Christian and hurt you, or called you evil things, know this is not the mind of Christ or of God. When those people went to the Battle Cry and went to the building they stood upon, they never cursed at you, they never hated on you. Not once did they say you were facist, or haters or anything. But they were called every name, they were said to show "nazi salutes" as they praised their God. Can they not worship their God?

The tolerant of SF were found to be intolerant that day to the people who just wished to worship their God, and read the newspapers and you will see that it is true and others saw it.

May God turn your hearts towards Him.

John 3

15 that whoever believes in Him should *not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

We all have a brain. We do not all need to reach the same conclusion that you have come to.

Proseletyzing is just not cool. Keep it up. I'm already not listening.

BFJC, so you know, I was not reflecting my viewpoints, but DISCUSSION POINTS there, to challenge my children, to get them to come up w/ whatever conclusions (or arguments) they will - not preaching to you (or them) but asking the "what if..." type of questions I think we all should be comfortable in responding to. Perhaps that wasn't clear throughout my post, but they need to see opposing viewpoints & not hold themselves with blinders on to better understand their own Christianity.

Do I believe abortion is murder? Well, since no-one has proven that even that single cell, once fertilized, will grow into anything OTHER than a human being, I know it is, and will treat my body & any potential future children accordingly. What I was questioning to my children, when it comes to LAWS around same, is whether those who DON"T consider it murder (a human) should dictate what the law is - as Christians, we know what we must / should do. For those who don't hold our beliefs, is it somehow our right to hold them accountable to our standards/beliefs? Not saying it ISN'T, just questioning to ensure we discuss it clearly. If my rambling got off-track there, ah well, guess I'm human...

As for Christianity's evolution, I think you take me out of context also. Christ's words are unchanging. How we interpret them has evolved, how we apply them, how we evolve our relationship with him - when I was young, God was Lord & Master, to be feared; that has "evolved" into God wanting to be my friend, have an open dialogue & relationship with me. Our services have changed (evolved). The Bible continues to be re-introduced / re-interpreted , fine-tuning of a single word often making a huge difference in answering life's questions. Heck, the Catholics determined there's no "limbo" any more just recently (where did all the folks go that they said WENT to limbo, I wonder...). But Jesus' words are solid & unchanging, as is His message. The RELIGION we call Christianity is what is evolving. Or, do you think we follow in the same manner as did the Crusaders (or should)? Or, as those who beat & ordered the Californian Indians into submission? Or, are we TRYING to apply Christ's ways and convert via love? Tell me that I am wrong, you may think I am.

Interesting add-on to the gay marriage topic for those here came up the other night when HBO aired that new show (forget the name) about Mormons in polygamous relationships. The actor / script brought up the point that if we determine gays should be allowed to be married, why not allow for polygamous relationships - why is one right & the other wrong: if you hold them under the same (Biblical) standards shouldn't it be an all-or-none? Maybe the right to marry isn't the question - maybe what the law does / provides for as a result of that marriage is the hot issue for everyone, and the morality of what constitutes a marriage should be held within the faith of the individuals? Hmm....

As for "hypocrites", you are right - what I SHOULD have said is there are those who act hypocritically, or act like the Pharisees rather than "are" them. As I tell my boys, they are not "bad", just on occasion do bad things. See, acknowledging you're wrong is possible, and learning even more so, even for me ;-)

I'm unsure how to react to your post, US Citizen ... what was it that this country founded upon? Wasn't it Judeo-Christian beliefs? Nobody considered that a mental illness or an abomination then ... why now?

More than that, why is it so important for everyone to get on here and argue their their beliefs? I've been reading this blog for 2 weeks now ... since the ruckus started up about the Battle Cry, and I've yet to be impressed by anything on here. Basically, you aren't going to sway me, and I'm not going to sway you. Everyone can post on here for the next six months, but in the end, what is it going to do? I believe it will simply cause more dissention between both groups.

None of you agree with the Christians and the Christians don't agree with you all ... why not end it there and part ways?

Just a thought.

This country was founded on Judeo Christain beliefs, but what Americas constitution says is there will be a seperation of church and state. Since the religious right insists on hating transgender people , same sex marriage and non-conformists it is time to enforce the seperation of church and state. San Franciscans simply don't want your right wing religious beliefs in our town.
Until you stay away our fight will continue. Eventually leading to violence. I will pick up a stone and throw it at people who salute like Nazia, bash same sex marriage couples, deny women rights to their own bodies, and force the bible on US.
Final thought to religious right(which is wrong).
Stay the hell out of San Francisco.

Christianity is considered a mental illness because those people preach "Homosexuality is a sin."
That is flaky and anyone who preaches that crap should be confined to a mental hospital.
Gay, lesbian, and transgender people are human beings. Its is not some temporary drug induced way of life.
Civilization has evolved, and we are smarter and more resourceful now. We don't need no stinkin bible to govern our lives. Anarchy is what we use. Self rule, self government and self owned.
Its called freedom, and Christianity confines us to one hateful belief after another.
By the way we stop paying attention to the federal government. They too will not last.

The new form of tolerance in our country is silence. On one hand, a group of people say we should be open to all forms of expression, belief and attitude yet when you encounter a belief that is contrary to your own you try to silent that belief. I thought this was a country that allows you to believe whatever you want and when there is disagreement we can discuss why we differ, IT'S CALLED A DIALOGUE! Your brand of tolerance is just intellectual cowardice because you are not willing to to even listen to the other side and hear why they have a particular belief. You cannot blame the whole just because of a few people's "RIGHT WING PROPAGANDA" as you state it. I'm sure you would agree that not all of the people on the "left side" behave in a manner you approve of so maybe it's time to stop hate on both sides and come to the table and listen to each other for a change. You shouldn't have the right to "force your views" on people that disagree or decide to choose another lifestyle. The answer is choice, you choose the way you want to live and let those who want to choose to live a heterosexual lifestyle, don't belittle them for making a different choice than you did.

"The new form of tolerance in our country is silence. On one hand, a group of people say we should be open to all forms of expression, belief and attitude yet when you encounter a belief that is contrary to your own you try to silent that belief..."

Nobody silenced you. Your side got to speak your piece at *our* City Hall, yeah that's right, the City Hall where all those GAY MARRIAGES took place, according to Ron Luce.

To speak against the intolerance of your mighty leader is not to silence YOU. There is a difference between silencing people and speaking freely in opposition to a point of view. Why don't you get it, if you're SO tolerant?

Blind sheep

Fahrenheit 411? Start memorizing.

Mental illness? A relationship that dosent need all of the cultral material things of the world... dosent need sex before marrage or drugs to change our state of mind and our capability to proporly function...Adam & Eve... not Adam and steve..you dont see 2 gay men or 2 lesbians being to be able to have children natually... everything that you have on the earth you dont have when u die...and u have to think that your going to somewhere...if not hell...where then?

self rule..and anarcy...look where thats bring us..look where the distruction of our community...violence in skewls...teen suicides..over exceeded drug use..who wants their kid being 8 and smokeing pot and looking at porn?

On an over crowded planet with dwindling resources, not having children is bad why?

I dunno if any one of you guys visit this websites much anymore since the message I'm replying to was posted back in April, but I'll say my piece anyway. Gay marriage--it's not about having kids. Sure, two people of the same sex can't reproduce together, but that's not even the point. I personally don't understand it (homosexuality) at all. I've never had those feelings for someone of my own gender. The closest experience I've had to that is when one of my own friends turned out to be bisexual. When she told me in a note during Spanish class, (it said, "Don't hate me, I'm bi."), I was completely shocked. I sat and stared at the front of the class for at least a full five minutes before I could look at her. She certainly didn't look any different. And it's not like she had ever hit on any other girls (that I knew of). She just looked and acted like the same old *Stacy* (I changed the name of course). We continued being friends and nothing really changed except I started noticing when she hung out with certain girls and knew what was going on when she went to a dance with a girl from band. But I still didn't like it. And I don't think she liked it either. She was a Christian too, and she always tried to keep her sexuality as a secret. She was ashamed of it. So I think this means she knew what she was doing was wrong. Was it becasue of her spiritual beliefs, the ideas we all grew up with regarding intimacy and marriage (which everyone around her believed), or the fact that this was all new to her? Was it a combination of all three? Like I said, thisd is all very confusing to me.

So, it turns out I was looking in the wrong places for answers. The growing popularity and acceptance for indulging in homosexual lifestyles had begun to confuse me. Everyone was acting as if it was OK. But the answer was in front of me the whole time.
Don't let yourself be fooled. Homosexuality is a sin, no matter how you look at it. I just had to look to God's word such as this passage:

Leviticus 20:13: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination

This is certainly not the only passage that speaks of immoral sexual acts. Here's another from a completely different passage.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NIV): "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters, nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

But there is hope. Jesus loves every single homosexual/ lesbian/ gay/ queer/ whatever-you-want-to-call-it in the whole world. He loves them just as much as he loves everyone else, though he hates their lives of sin. The only way to escape that life is to commit yourself to the Lord.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
In other words, if you give in to the sinful urges of your body, you will not inheritit His kingdom. You will live life only to experience pain in the eternal fire. But if the Spirit is truely inside you, you cn fight the urges of the body and live the fullfilling life God planned for you.

It's all a matter of choice.