Estee Slaughter's 2006 Valentine's Extravaganza

Here we go again... A gay org lashing out at Israel, seeking through double standards it be holier than any other nation in its treatment of a hostile opponent, gay politics be damned. More triggering of the yawn reflex. Move on, QUIT. Run along.

So, Israel is a queer issue (???) because the Lauder heir is involved in his ethnic community's historical aspirations? And so therefore, this was expressed in the form of a condom hand-out at Macy's (class analysis?) on Valentine's Day (surely a monogamous context? if ever there was one), in which people were supposed (invited?) to equate life-saving condoms with an "apartheid" wall? um....

I suppose the vanguard will have to excuse the masses if this somehow went way, way "over" our heads.

EXCELLENT. More queers should take up the struggle of justice for Palestine.

For the Israeli Apologist above:

"The objective of Zionism has never been merely to colonize Palestine – as was the goal of classical colonial and imperial movements during the 19th and 20th centuries. The design of European colonialism in Africa and Asia was, essentially, to exploit indigenous peoples as cheap labor while extracting natural resources for exorbitant profit.

What distinguishes Zionism from other colonial movements is the relationship between the settlers and the people to be conquered. The avowed purpose of the Zionist movement was not merely to exploit the Palestinian people but to disperse and dispossess them. The intent was to replace the indigenous population with a new settler community, to eradicate the farmers, artisans and town-dwellers of Palestine and substitute an entirely new workforce composed of the settler population.

In denying the existence of the Palestinian people, Zionism sought to create the political climate for their removal, not only from their land but from history. When acknowledged at all, the Palestinians were re-invented as a semi-savage, nomadic remnant. Historical records were falsified – a procedure begun during the last quarter of the 19th century but continuing to this day in such pseudo-historical writings as Joan Peters’ From Time Immemorial.

The Zionist movement would seek alternative imperial sponsors for this bloody enterprise; among them the Ottoman Empire, Imperial Germany, the British Raj, French colonialism and Czarist Russia. Zionist plans for the Palestinian people anticipated the Ottoman solution for the Armenians, who would be slaughtered in the first sustained genocide of the 20th century."

http://www.marxists.de/middleast/schoenman/ch02.htm

So how does this translate to Macy's on VDay?

And if you want others to "take up the struggle of justice for Palestine," why don't you invite the Nation of Islam down to picket with you next time?

Looks like you are all right on the same page here:

"So, Israel is a queer issue (???) because the Lauder heir is involved in his ethnic community's historical aspirations?"

No, this is an issue of universal interest to all decent people because the Lauder heir is a fanatical bigot, like you

Rather than engage me in a direct manner about my objections to what you're doing recently, you quote ramblings about Zionism's history from some website? I've got nothing to learn from you, seeing as you're brainwashed with Marxist ideology. You actually entertained any hope I'd take the rantings from the Communist website with any degree of seriousness? Besides, you're undercutting your own gay politics and doing zip for Palestinian gays while you're being used as a Useful Idiot by reactionary anti-peace Palestinian forces for anti-gay purposes too. Yours is one helluva demonstration of stupidity, probably among the worst in the history of pro-gay activism.

Too bad you need to rely on your pre-determined talking points when your positions get challenged in free debate. Are you incapable of having a real dialogue without such ideological crutches?
I suggest you expand your political horizons by delving into material by more neutral parties.

FREE FREE ALL OF ISRAEL FROM TERRORIST FANATICS WHO ALSO PERSECUTE THE PALESTINIAN GAYS YOU'RE DOING A GRAVE DISSERVICE TO.

Good for QUIT!

Anything that brings awareness to the last apartheid regime on this planet, is wondeful AND if it can be done with humour instead of bombs - amazing!

I congratulate the queers of San Francisco and call on queers everywhere to take note and then take a stand.

Israel is "the last apartheid regime on this planet"? LMFAO!!! You know there are quite a few deragotory terms in English for someone labeling "apartheid" a country where all minorities get to vote and enjoy virtually all other political freedoms, have full free speech rights, own property and otherwise enjot almost equal rights as the dominant national group.

Ever heard of apartheid regimes like the Saudi entity, Jordan and Sudan where Jews are officially forbidden to own property or have citizenship? How about Egypt, Syria, Iran, etc, etc? You really need to wake up to reality and ditch the tired anti-Israel kool-aid.

This is exactly NOT an issue of universal interest. It is a regional geoterritorial conflict, exascerbated by cold war hangover. It is also a military conflict, with religious/racist overtones on BOTH sides. Queers really dont have good friends in either government-- the Israeli one is marginally less oppressive, if you ignore elements of the right-wing ruling coalition, and if you're Jewish. Hamas? I dont think anyone will be asking them for a LGBTIQ Pride Parade permit anytime soon.

In fact, the attempt to hold world pride in Jerusalem was the first time (perhaps in recorded history) that Jewish, Muslim and Christian leaders in Jerusalem have ever all agreed on anything. This alone is the best argument ever for a queer parade there. But there was QUIT, saying no, no, no. That was really lame, and showcased their bad analytical habits, from a queer rights point of view.

Along those lines, no one's even tried to explain the awful condom equals "apartheid" wall analogy. That's just stupid, and ya dont get people on your side by asking them to embrace patently stupid analogies-- that's insulting.

Nice try though, I suppose. Next time, maybe something coherent? ALL of the cheerleading here is on content, no one is arguing the presentation of the issues was effective. I mean, Macy's has a monopoly on Estee Lauder products? Why pick on Macy's?

Well, I think QUIT performs an important function. It saves the "Boycott Caterpillar" folks from being the most misdirected, ill-informed, ineffective, counterproductive, feel-good-for-having-done-nothing, and ultimately unintentionally comic form of Israel-bashing.

@%<

"Queers really dont have good friends in either government-- the Israeli one is marginally less oppressive [than the PA], if you ignore elements of the right-wing ruling coalition, and if you're Jewish. "

Hyperbole, much? Israel has a few of the most advanced laws in equal opportunity for gays, and the Rabbinical authorities can't get away with a degree of persecution that even comes close to what you can see in the PA. Even if all the difference was that in Israel one's life (a non-Jew) wouldn't automatically be under threat, that in itself hardly registers as "marginally less oppressive". Come on, ever heard of getting a genuine sense of proportion in these matters?

...when you know queer refugees from Israel.

My agenda is Queers, it's not Jews or Muslims. And I assure you, there aint no Zionist gonna change my mind on that one!!

You ought to understand where I'm coming from...

I understand you for implying that the greater number of gay refugees from PA-controlled territory doesn't console you when you think about the gays that moved away from Israel for having being and/or felt persecuted. That's well taken.

However, if you believe you shouldn't ever let a person change your mind with facts just 'cause he or she happens to be Zionist, this says more about your own mindset and character than about said Zionist.

It was a reference to a similarity, not a difference.

It is hypocrisy for Israel to promote itself as queer-friendly to Americans, for obvious propaganda purposes, while continuing to be persecutorial at home. Widespread opposition to Word Pride Jerusalem objectively proves that such an atmosphere exists, and is at least in part tied to religious fundamentalism (as it usually is)-- even in Israel.

Although I'm sure that queer people (as well as just about everyone else) are welcome in the Israeli military-- but that's easy enough to understand as pragmatic within its context. If anything, the situation in Israel should inform the internal debate among queers about whether assimilation into violent and oppressive institutions, like the military (and for that matter, marriage-- how's the right to marry coming along in Israel? go ahead, impress us)... In short, it should inform debate as to whether assimilationist goals are really an effective liberation strategy. But not to digress.

By effective, let me be clear, I mean a strategy that meets queer people's needs, on our own terms and conditions, as we define them and for our own purposes. Nothing more nor less.

It's intriguing that some/many gays in the West look on Zionism as a whole as inherently inimical to gay rights and agendas. But that can only be understood when we account for the fact that most gay activists act within and are influenced by the ranks of the radical Left.

In Israel's own case, the far-Left (primarily Meretz) appropriated the gay cause as a leftist one. This is understandable to a large degree, except when they go overboard, forgetting that some gays have different political convictions. An illustrative example is PM Sharon's historical meeting a few years back with gay activists in which they tried to tie gay rights exclusively to an overall leftist agenda. Sharon, who had been sympathetic up to that point and even granted some of their requests, put his foot down at hearing what he was being asked to do, but didn't berate them for attempting to totally integrate the gay agenda in Israel with the Zionist far-left agenda. Too bad he didn't.

[Ariel Sharon] "...didn't berate them for attempting to totally integrate the gay agenda in Israel with the Zionist far-left agenda. Too bad he didn't."

Unless Sharon is gay, bi, or transgendered, it isn't his place to tell queer people how to pursue our survival agenda. He was right not to attempt to, and the queers in question were right to take their cause to any power that exists in pursuit of their goals-- Ariel Sharon included.

Whatever I, or anyone thinks of him personally.

The same question applies to the other side (which, unlike you, usually falls silent, for its own self-conscious depth of complicity in the persecution of queers as a people).

For example, see the responses (or lack thereof) to:

"Unless Sharon is gay, bi, or transgendered, it isn't his place to tell queer people how to pursue our survival agenda. He was right not to attempt to, and the queers in question were right to take their cause to any power that exists in pursuit of their goals-- Ariel Sharon included. "

Let's be mindful that those activists were out of line. They had no right to stray from the topic which was gay rights in Israel and harness their attempts to advance their sectorial agenda during that meeting in the cause of their particular far-leftist vision of peace with the Palestinians in an effort to make the two seem interchangeable.

Except that the issue is one and the same for queer people.

Queers are marginalized and persecuted in each society, and have more in common with each other (Israeli or Palestinian) than they do with either culture of origin.

This is exactly why queers as A PEOPLE makes sense, and queer support for Israel (or the PA) doesn't.

Still waiting to hear all about gay marriage in Israel. Cmon, show us those European-level commitments to human rights.

I've got no disagreement with the bulk of your statements, but when you state

"Except that the issue is one and the same for queer people. "

... you purport to speak for all queer people on this point but have no more right to than a non-queer. I reckon you haven't thought this one through or at leaast aren't looking at it through a rational prism. If you try, maybe you'll realize some time down the road the mistake you're making. Namely, you fail to recognize that individuals' views about ethnic/national conflics cannot always be neatly compartmentalized into far-leftist paradigms just because all of them happen to be of a certain sexual orientation that's traditionally far-leftist in pursuit of its agenda.

Personally I believe the notion of queers being a people is too radical and impossible in practice, though I can't blame queers for espousing it.

Have you heard of Prof. Uzi Even, a former Meretz MK? If memory serves correctly, he married his male spouse a few years back. Whether this proves gay marriage is already perfectly acceptable legally in Israel and doesn't entail harrassment by the Interior Ministry I don't know. What is it that you expect me to tell you?

...but it's not:

"Namely, you fail to recognize that individuals' views about ethnic/national conflics cannot always be neatly compartmentalized into far-leftist paradigms just because all of them happen to be of a certain sexual orientation that's traditionally far-leftist in pursuit of its agenda."

My point is not one of a "leftist" agenda, but rather, my point is a common queer agenda that cuts across lines of nation, religion or race.

I am arguing against a nationalist agenda ever serving the needs of queers AS A PEOPLE, because we are not at all defined by national identity, but rather, sexual or gender-oeientation identity. As such, we always have more in common with queers of other and even "enemy" cultures, than we do "straight people" from our cultures of origin.

That is why it makes sense that at least some activists in Israel would try to connect the queer struggle in Israel with demands for peace with the Palestinians. It is a survival imperative for queers on both sides of the divide, who have more in common with each other than with their respective "metacultures," if you will.

Persecution of queers in both societies objectively proves the point that proper queer solidarity is with other queers, not with oppressive, persecutorial cultures of origin, whatever they may be.

Gee, something like Zionism.

"As such, we always have more in common with queers of other and even "enemy" cultures, than we do "straight people" from our cultures of origin."

Stop and take a breath, and see whether this is really what you meant to say. Do you really mean to define yourself primarily by your sexuality? You can if you want, but you can't then go on to declare that those who don't -- even if they share your sexuality -- are somehow traitors to do so.

@%<

There are in fact problems with a totalistic self-definition that places ones needs and aspirations above all else and above all others.

Now aren't there?

Not least of all, the need to maintain such a thing with (expensive) overwhelming military strength and the conversion of one's society to a permanent garrison culture.

I'm so glad you can pick up on this in some context. Dare I ask you to bring this analysis home?

Now you say

"I would be wrong... if that were my point. ...but it's not: My point is not one of a "leftist" agenda, but rather, my point is a common queer agenda that cuts across lines of nation, religion or race. "

As to your new point,- that doesn't render what those Israeli gay activists did kosher.

Unfortunately you're obviously knocking Zionism (denial won't help; the hints are unmistakable) only because you couldn't find better ammuninition to reply to gehrig's notes, knowing he's proudly Zionist. I daresay your barb on Zionism's account makes little impression on those among the non-queers willing to debate you who aren't distictively pro-Palestinian inclined.

I'm neither pro- nor anti-Zionist. That's hard for a lot of partisans in the Palestine/Israel knock-down drag-out to accept, but there you have it. This ambivalence is exactly based in these reflections on how Zionism informs (or not) what one might call "Queer Nationalism." In fact, such ambivalence is no stretch at all-- daresay, it's a normative response, if such a thing exists.

You might also call it walking a mile in someone else's shoes. Not particularly queer, but then, it's funny how many queers are capable of doing just that, and how many geoterritorial activists (if you will) aren't willing to even consider the other point of view, and what it might inform one of one's own.

I think that says a lot in itself.

While we're touching on the notion of non-partisanship, what are your reflections on the way/s Palestinism informs the so-called Queer Nationalism?

Palestine is just another nationalism that queers have to try to survive.

That's my anti-Zionist side.

Palestine is what Arabs in the area use to try to resist Israeli occupation, and that with which Palestinians use to communicate that resistance to the world.

Much as Israel does for the Jews. That's my pro-Zionist side. For what is Palestine, if not the Palestinian Zion?

It's that shocking SIMILARITY that makes the Palestine/Israel conflict so scandalous.

I'm not convinced that Queer Nationalism would play out any differently. Israel/Palestine proves nationalism a dangerous and perhaps even delusional strategy, at best. As does the former Yugoslavia (just to departicularize this just a bit.)

It probably beats playing the eternal victim though-- something both Queers and Jews understand all too well. Remember-- the world is still full of people who openly advocate the elimination of Queers as a people. I think queer folks understand Israel just fine, whatever their expressed opinions on it.

Again, it's called ambivalence.

One problem with protests and debates over politics like this is that its done in the context of an assumption that one should protest what's morally wrong and rally in support of what's morally right. A protest in the US to "free Tibet" or denounce homophobia in Iran may be a protest against a moral wrong but its also pramatically a wrong tactic and its hard to say if you are morally justifiied in protesting a moral wrong when the obvious efect is to make the conditions of those one is protesting about worse. Will it help or hurt gay Iranians or Tibetan Budhists to have their struggle linked to pressure from the US? Gay rights in the Middle East wont be gained by tying the rights of queers to imperialism, US unilateralism and cultural paternalism. I'm not arguing for cultural relativistic views of human rights but to the problem that when a culture justifiably feels like its being stepped upon by the US militarilly and culturally, public opinion will be pushed in the exact wrong direction if a call for greater rights comes in the same form as other paternalistic US scolding that is more clearly self-serving.

Islamic cultures may seem more homophobic today than nonIslamic ones but one only has to go back 60+ years to find many of the international gay tourist meccas in Muslim counties because things were safer ( http://www.gaytimestravel.co.uk/gtt/article.asp?a=25 ) Leviticus contains some homophoboic passages but the modern idea of homosexuality is barely over 100 years old and one finds love letters by Lincoln to other men and stories of eunuch debauchery (and even the "sacred" eunuchs of Medina as described in http://ostg.pricegrabber.com/search_fullinfobk.php/isbn=0195071018 ) to see that love by men for men and women for women was not as traditionally frowned upon historically as one would assume from the modern debate. If one realizes that in India many people I have talked to claim homsexuality doesnt exist but when you ask about eunchs, people see this as different (even though Indian eunuchs are not usually castrated and historically one can assume this probably has always been the case) Does Leviticus or the Koran even denounce homsexuality if one assumes that at the time such books were written eunuchs were quite common and were seen as neither men or women (and thus a passage against a man sleeping with a man wouldnt be against a man sleeping with a eunuch)

If one wants to change a society like Egypt, Iran or even Saudi Arabia to not attack queers the way to do it is clearly not by telling people in those societies that they are evil because of their religion. Queer rights in such countries may only be possible by having the pressure come in tradional forms (one already has seen Iranian Mullahs come out in favor of sex change operations and acknowledging than women can be "trapped in mens bodies" ... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4115535.stm )

Im not sure how much linking queer rights with the Palestinian struggle really helps either the Palestinian cause of the rights of queers in Palestinian areas but it is clearly a more positive action on both counts than the right-wing attempts to use queer rights to demonize Iran and Muslim countries (since by doing so probably puts lives of queers in more jepordy).

"when a culture justifiably feels like its being stepped upon by the US militarilly and culturally, public opinion will be pushed in the exact wrong direction"

With the current US administration, you might almost call such an effect predictable. It seems to me that all such cultural polemicizations carry this effect-- not by any means least, they push other priorities and agendas off the social radar. All must be subsumed to war during wartime. The feminist revolution deferred to the socialist one is another fine example.

And it is perfectly true that there is a long, rich history of homosexuality under Islam. Funny, isn't it, that "Islam" puts it outside of nationalism, as understood in modern terms....

I would like to explicitly invite anyone caring to discuss queer rights in a Palestinian context, and some of the social/institutional forces with which such an attempt might entangle one, to do so in a recent relevant thread (pro-Palestinian from a NoI point of view), here:

"Funny, isn't it, that "Islam" puts it outside of nationalism, as understood in modern terms...."

Not sure what you are trying to get at.

The modern homophobic trend in fundamentalist forms of Islam has some obvious historical roots. One effect of colonialism was that bohemian types from the West used the colonies as a way to get away from oppressive laws in the colonizing countries. While the laws they were escaping were oppressive many of the bohemian types were as racist as everyone else at the time and much of their actions in the colonies consisted of abusive use of the local population. Fundamentalists in places like Algeria became leaders in the anticolonial struggle by pointing out such abuse by both the colonizing military and the bohemian tourists. Opium, alcohol and prositition by both young women and men became symbols of Western domination; its easy to look back and see this reaction as purely puritanical but with Britain waging war on China for refusing to allow British ships from trafficing in opium and much prostitution in colonies involving actual slavery its definitely not that simple.Even the Taliban gained power in Kandahar partly because of accusations that a local warlord had been kidnapping young boys to be sex slaves; the end effect on fundamentalist views was brutal and deadly bigotry but the roots were not solely due to a fundamentalist interpretation of Islam (although one can see how the Catholic Church has dealt with abuse by preists in the same light since nonconsentual abuse of children became somehow a justification for attacks on consentual sex between adults) The homophobia one sees in more fundamentalist sections of many Islamic societies perhaps parallels most closely the homophobia one sees among former male child prositutes or ex-prisoners in the US (which makes sense when you realize that most of the fundamentalist societies are unstable and have been subject to wars); an environment where same sex sex slavery is common (which is essentially what one has in many US jails) create a form of homophobia that is reactive even if irrational (just as many women who have been raped by men may hold long term fear of male sexuality)

One should also take into account the mysogyny of poor societies where dowries made daughters more expensive than sons. Homophobia is/was perhaps common in such socities for monetary reasons, where parents want a son who will get paid to take a wife and then will have children working for them.

Colonialism in Palestine didnt take the same form as in Morocco, Iraq or Afghanistan (few people went to Jerusalem in hopes of finding cheap drugs and sex with children and Britian didnt try to force opium on the local population either). Plus, much of modern Israeli culture is European in nature and was imported after colonialsm from countries that were stable enough that having a relative sold into sex slavery would have been rare. Its easy to blame Islam and see the difference between tollerance in Isreal (which still isnt that great) and Saudi Arabia (which is obviously horrible) as being due to religion but its not the case and the differences relate much more to historical factors unrelated to religion.

"I would like to explicitly invite anyone caring to discuss queer rights in a Palestinian context, and some of the social/institutional forces with which such an attempt might entangle one, to do so in a recent relevant thread"

I dont exactly get the point of what you are trying to get at. he NOI is homophobic and for Palestinian freedom (but NOI members would never make it in the Middle East since their religion is pretty different from Islam). Much of the Christian right in the US hates Palestinians and is homophobic. That some group happens to agree with you on one thing and disagree with you on another doesnt make the point you agree with them on less valid.

One more thing relating to my previous comment. NOI homophobia has some fairly obvious roots that relate to the focus on how some racist charactures of African Americans in the late 1800s and early 1900s "emascualted" African American men. The focus on not being treated as an equal being turned into not being treated like a "man" has some obviously mysogynistic tones but it does help explain some of the forms of the homophopbia one sees in African American culture (and even in modern pop culture gay African Americans are portrayed as "acting white" with stereotypical gay traits being equated with being "an uncle tom")

The NOI has pull in poor communities because alcoholism, violence and drug abuse are real problems and those are the problems the left tends to shy away from. They throw homosexuality into the same category as prositution and drug abuse for completely illogical reasons but as with fundamentalists in Algeria or Afghanistan its questionable if its because of religion of something else. They definitely need to be confronted on this but it needs to come from within the communities they are addressing since white middle-class activists comming into a poor African American community to complain about homophopbia by a group that rallies its support by pointing out white middle class racism (and paternalism) isnt going to be very productive. The RCP used to be pretty homophobic (perhaps for the same reasons as the NOI was) and now seem to support queer rights causes so one would hope that the NOI could be made to change on this issue too (and perhaps via the same pressures).

"Vindictiveness and slander are so universally meted out to anti-Zionists because the disparity between the official fiction about Zionism and the Israeli state, on the one hand, and the barbarous practice of this colonial ideology and coercive apparatus, on the other, is so vast. People are in shock when they have an opportunity to hear or read about the century of persecution suffered by the Palestinians, and, thus, the apologists for Zionism are relentless in seeking to prevent coherent, dispassionate examination of the virulent and chauvinist record of the Zionist movement and of the state which embodies its values."

"Not sure what you are trying to get at."

I mean that nationalism at least seems to be a cause of institutional homophobia, at least as we understand the terms today. I think much of your subsequent point could be taken as valid from this point of view; the increase of fundamentalism comes hand in glove with the modern-nationalization process, such as in Algeria, or for that matter Palestine or Israel or, hell, in the post-Lenin USSR-- it does not require God, just an other against which to posit sameness.

The rest, prostitution and whatnot, is almost an argument for universalism-- all societies experience degrees of the things you speak of, regardless of "level of development" or whatever. For example, consider the trafficking in women in the 21st century-- hey, that means markets of men, mostly, support that exploitation in their willingness to pay for it by the side of the road, in downtown Milan or London... European displays of scandalization notwithstanding. I wouldnt be surprised to find out about individual European anti-trafficking legislators who participate in that particular sex market-- would you?

That's a theoretical question.

There is more to your reply, and I will try to come back to this, assuming others are still interested in the discussion, which I think is coming along.... the romper room sloganeering notwithstanding. Has it occured to y'all (sloganeerists) that it's not moving your struggle forward, in fact, it might be a hindrance?

" "Vindictiveness and slander are so universally meted out to anti-Zionists because the disparity between the official fiction about Zionism and the Israeli state, on the one hand, and the barbarous practice of this colonial ideology and coercive apparatus, on the other, is so vast. People are in shock when they have an opportunity to hear or read about the century of persecution suffered by the Palestinians, and, thus, the apologists for Zionism are relentless in seeking to prevent coherent, dispassionate examination of the virulent and chauvinist record of the Zionist movement and of the state which embodies its values." "


We witnessed more irrelevant off-topic quotes instead of an attempt at dialogue. That's the haven the weak-minded and intellectually stunted zealots resort to when many of the facts aren't in favor of their rabid cause.

FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA THE LAND OF ISRAEL WILL EVENTUALLY BE FREE. Crush the Intifida, the sooner the better.

You're obscurantism and Zionist smoke and mirrors is disgusting. You are immune to the truth. Furthermore it sad that some here have taken your bait. Why would I waste time and effort to debate you rather than cutting and pasting? It's all been said before. In this case by anti-Zionist Jewish gentleman, author and respected broadcast journalist, Ralph Schoenman. I took my valuable time to repost an his well researched article for your edification and you responded by being rude and attacking me and

It’s not surprising you attack when the truth is presented you. You're a Zionist bastard who stands up for the oppressor. Your country has its jack boot heel on the Palestinians. A region was stolen from its original inhabitants. You are the vile vile insect.

In a just world denying the Nakba would be met with a prison term. Israel would be recognized for the rogue nation it is. If there is an after life I hope your rot in hell.

Really why not try another tact instead of direct insult. It's so typically zionist. Your are a hateful and sarcastic creature, and I hope you crawl back under the stolen rock from which you slithered out of.

Your rants against Zionism and exhortations to "free Palestine" are totally off this thread's topic. That you seek to evade this by producing anti-Zionist tirades rather than get on topic is further proof of how your hatred prevents you from engaging debate *about* the topic, unlike the gay person above who has proven he's capable of reasonable exchange of ideas on the topic without launching into hatred driven rants against either side of the devide. If anything, I'm trying to prevent the discussion on this thread from being derailed by your likes; in that sense I'm elucidating.

If you want to see someone immune to the truth, I suggest you go take a long hard look in the mirror and then come back and take a glance at your ilk, like TW and nessie. Your attempt at observation about me is quite amusing.

Evidently you're saddened to see someone far less infested by blind hatred of anything "Zionist" like yourself was capable of candid discourse. Maybe he has hit some of your nerves as he brought up things related to how your beloved Freedom Fighters (ahem) treat gay people that you and your cohorts always hope never get mentioned.

"It's all been said before", huh? That's the flimsiest excuse I've heard so far in these parts for avoiding real debate by inane reliance on pre-determined talking points (I doubt you're even right anyway).
Maybe Schoenman is reputable in your quarters, but not in others where blatantly slanted anti-Zionist historical revisionism is looked on with the contempt it rightly deserves. Not only were you being off-topic, you regurgitated lies and half-truths. I don't care if the guy you quoted is Jewish. No one should be impressed with the religious origin of the source. Hardly days go by after I suggested you go read more impartial material, and you're now back here adamant you were posting the truth. Evidently you're too immersed in your belief that sources like that are impartial and neutral to get a clue that they sure aren't. So your resort now is to go foul on me. This really cracks me up since you can't judge actual events in Israel except through the prism of Palestinian propaganda lies, as your accusations against me readily show. You'd never deign to admit reality, which is that your beloved "victims" are in the midst of a thrust to murder all Jews everywhere in Israel, subjugate all other non-Muslims, intensify the persecution of Palestinian gays and impose a Saudi style theocracy in all of Israel. You have no place in any pro-peace and progressive movements. You should be thrown out of any such movements you've manged to worm your way into. By supporting theocratic Nazi-like lunatics, you're in effect an enemy of Palestinian gays.

Let's not forget, it was your other favorite murderers, the Hashemites, who stole land in Judea and Samaria and Jerusalem from its original Jewish inhabitants. You're worse than a maggot because you adore such scum.
Jews, conversely, bought their land.

If this were a sane world, all people on earth would know that Palestinian nationalism is nothing but an excuse to deprive Jews of their historivcal homeland, and act accordingly. The gay above went a step toward acknowledging this truth.

All the other tacts you might try will not obscure the fact that you don't really care about the interests of the Palestinian gays. Ma'a Sallame.

Great, so we’ve established that direct insult can cut both ways. It’s not nice.

Some of the arguments that you use to support the racist apartheid regime of Israel are the same that were used by white racists to support South Africa under its apartheid regime. I will agree that not everyone in a resistance movement is pure. I do not presume however to dictate how the resistance should be fought or what forms the movement toward liberation should take.

For the time being, at least, as a taxpaying American citizen, I have a right to express my disdain at how my taxes are being spent. In this case, to support Israel, the racist, supremacist regime.

Right off the bat, earlier on in this thread, levels of left Anti-Semitism were bandied about. What a tired old saw. Talk about “romper room.” Even the ADL of late seems to distinguish between “Anti-Israel’ and “Anti-Jewish”. Apparently you (or the other Zionist defenders here) feel there is still some propaganda.

Again, the reason that I posted the Schoenman piece is that I am at distinct disadvantage in that I am not Jewish. Therefore, I posted from someone with a better understanding of the religion as it relates to Judaism. Indeed, you have certainly played upon this to your advantage here. Even the cursory knowledge that I have of your religion, does not seem to mesh with Zionism. Far from “the historical aspiration” it seems that “true Torah Jews” recognize that state of Israel should not exist until after the messiah descends from the heavens. http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/ Furthermore, Herzl was a secular nationalist.
Zionist collaborated with Nazis. Yadda Yadda Yadda.

“From the river to the Sea” as I interpret it means one secular democracy for all, Palestinian, Arab & Christian and Jewish Inhabitants of the holy land. You could have had a two state solution, but it was more important for you to build settlements and steal more land.

Israel will fail as a racist apartheid state in the long run. I have no doubt.

Queers like me are naturally interested in social justice having had our denied.

Finally, I respect that you've come clean regarding your own religious beliefs rather than an impartial observer to a "regional religious/ethnic conflict" hahaha.

The gay Palestinians I know are for self-determination. By the way, in my years of Palestine Activism I have never heard a person say "Kill all the Jews". I have read however Zionist Zealots exhorting genocidal rage against the Palestinians, the indigenous inhabitants.

I'm not sure about two thousand year old land claims. Glad I dont' believe in the bible at all (especially no as a real estate document). I do know that there are Palestinians who wear the keys to the homes they were kicked out of by Zionist occupiers.

I believe you are probably a decent person. You illustrate though the pernicious effect that religion has for the world.

Hamas, a radical right-wing, homophobic, anti-Semitic, reactionary group, is now in charge in Palestine, and QUIT lashes out at Israel, the only country in the Middle East where GLBTs live in peace, with equal rights. Palestinian GLBTs, fearful of "honor killings" supported by their homophobic society, actually seek sanctuary in Israel to save their lives. But, QUIT is deaf, blind and dumb to this reality. May I suggest that QUIT organize a Pride Parade in downtown Ramallah. Good luck in getting a parade permit from the Hamas-led government.

“Are these the laws for which the Palestinian street is waiting? For us to give rights to homosexuals and to lesbians, a minority of perverts and the mentally and morally sick?”

Mahmoud Zahar, the most senior leader of Hamas in Gaza, speaking on same-sex marriage. Times Online, Oct. 7, 2005

Israel is worse. Hamas will probably oppress Gays, but Israel already oppresses *all* Palestinians.

If you sense that trading direct insults is "not nice", too bad you couldn't keep yourself from escalating your rhetoric to such levels. I'm not one of those cowards who always try to timidly tread through life without pissing anyone off while letting others leave their prints all over them. Expect a forceful reply in direct proportion to the quality of insults you dish out.

Your oft-puked term "the racist apartheid regime of Israel" is a logical fallacy as I delineated way above. Each time you repeat that repeat that reference to the State of Israel and seek to bolster its credibility with comparisons to apartheid SA, you further drive home your (hopefully only) emotionally driven dissonance from the truth, making my case and doing a bigger disservice to Palestinian gays who have been going through almost literal hell at the hands of the reactionary benighted theocrats you support so zealously.

Supporter of Hamas-like persecutors of gays:
"I will agree that not everyone in a resistance movement is pure. I do not presume however to dictate how the resistance should be fought or what forms the movement toward liberation should take."

Ah, the irony. You and your cohorts always rush to vigorously denounce not only the few Jewish wild weeds (like Kahanists in Qiryat Arba) who take unwarranted criminal actions against innocent Palestinians, but also the majority of the Jewish resistance that tries to fend off their butcherers -- of which there as many thousands -- day in and day out. Your evasion of denouncing terror for what it is is very worn and morally bankrupt. And your "resistance" and "liberation" terms are euphemisms for terror and attempts at genocide. I know the game and won't let your kind sell me such a bill of goods.

I surmise you have no problem with the fact that over $1 billion in taxpayer money has been given over the last decade or so to the PA with the express purposes of establishing a viable Palestinian economy, alleviating the suffering of the poor, training a modern workforce etc, only to go down the PA drain to finance the purchase of weapons to murder Jews through terror, to bankroll lavish lifestyles for the Palestinian elite, and to cushion Arafat's multifarious secret bank accounts. And of course you avoid the hell of conceding that the PA has always been a truly racist supremacist entity (where death sentence is meted out to those selling any land to Jews. When did this ever happen in Israel?). What does that make you, given the disdain you profess at seeing some of your tax dollars being spent to aid Israel? I think we know.

Now what are you implying here? That any anti-Zionist who's also incidentally Jewish inherently has a better understanding of Judaism than any non-Jew? That's some nonsensical notion.
Look, the Jewish yearning to return to Zion is millennia old and has always found prolific expression in liturgy, tradition, virtually all aspects of religious life. Zionism is the modern expression of this yearning and stemmed right out of it, only in a predominantly secular form. If you study early Zionist history, you'll find some rabbis among its the first Zionist luminaries AND be acquainted to the fact that many among the 1881/2 First Aliyah immigrants to Israel were observant if not religious. Neturei Karta whose URL you enclose here liberally contort lots of what's within Judaism to make it appear like there's no connection between it and Zionism, as if Zionism is a totally twisted form of Judaism which to them is entirely anathema to real Judaism. In reality, these loony tunes have the nerves to desecrate even the Shabbat (one of the most important ideals to observe in Judaism) in order to participate in anti-Israel demonstrations side by side with Palestinians while they're aware that their counterparts are deeply antisemitic. Furthermore, their version of what's true Judaism vis-a-vis Zionism isn't shared by much of their ultra-Orthodox counterparts, some of whom have switched to Zionism or non-Zionism without being anti. Even the rabidly anti-Zionist Satmar sect of Hassidim disavowed NK a few years ago because they don't want to seem complicit in cooperation with the antisemitic ideology and terrorism of any Palestinian faction.

But one thing lost on me which I'm still scratching my head to get what you're intent was, what did I take to my advantage before? I wasn't aware that being versed in historical truth means playing to my advantage my understanding of Judaism.

The "from river to sea secular democracy" slogan originates from PLO propaganda. They never meant to implement it and still don't. That's why I referred to you as being brainwashed. If you had examined the reality against this slogan, you would have discovered they intend to impose a regime much closer to apartheid than Israel ever has been. You've fallen for the Palestinian narrative of the disastrous Oslo process hook, line and sinker, totally unaware than Arafat never was interested in a two-state solution without getting all of Jerusalem and flooding Israel with 5 million foreigners who aren't even entitled to a refugee definition to overwhelm the Jewish population in an attempt to drive it out or subjugate it. You're also parroting the tired hyperbole of "stealing Palestinian lands" with no proof to show for it. Apparently you automatically believe any Palestinian claim alleging land theft yet would never believe a Jewish complaint about same. Why am I not surprised?

And while you're predicting Israel's downfall, you're overlooking that the Palestinian entity is a failure already at the outset...

Pity that your interpretation of social justice for Israel has been formed in such a one-sided fashion while you fail to realize you're betting on the horse that's always miserably victimized your gay counterparts (and the worse is yet to come for them) there instead of betting on a neutral horse at least.

Gee, did I say I was Jewish somewhere? Does it even matter if I am? You for your part seemed to me either a Muslim or Christian Palestinian; I say this because I never came across Westerners who'd descend to such rabid hatred as to be willing to call me an insect in such a context with such little provocation.

You may not have heard anyone cry out "murder all Jews" either because you've never worked with real Palestinians, or simply you never came across it. Either way, such vitriolic hatred exists in spades within the Palestinian camp and is confined to very few on the Zionist side. And no matter how often you repeat the falsehood (even though you didn't make it up) that the Palestinians were the indigenous people, it has been, is and will always remain *mostly* a lie. Most of the Palestinians and their ancestors immigrated to the holy land starting from the late 19th century and outnumbered the Jewish immigrants for the respective tome span. And if you don't know yet that there's been a continuous, unbroken Jewish presence in the holy land for 2 millennia accompanied by even a flimsy hope of renewing political Jewish independence, you've been misled. I myself am a secular person too, but unlike you I'm not willing to succumb through mindless political fanaticism to rewriting of history to support a cause, and won't turn a blind eye to the ravages wrought by Palestinian ideologues influenced by militant Islam.

I don't deny that some Palestinians were kicked out of their homes in 1948, but you've fallen pray to the lies claiming 750,000 or even more were all driven out by Zionist forces, and that's a load of crap.


P.S. ignore the jackass (probably "nessie") fulminating that Israel is worse than Hamas, blah blah.

An ad hominem is not a rebuttal. Israel is worse than Hamas.

Just silliness and really name calling. So whats the "progressive" opinion on fascist theocracies that openly call for the racist anhilation of another people, promote homicidal terror attacks on civilians, and have graphics of mushroom clouds over religious symbols of others?

To nessie, Israel is worse than Hamas. Why? Because it has more Jews.

@%<

Sadly, Hamas serves Israel’s rejectionist policies better than the collaborationist Palestine Authority ever has. The status quo can go indefinitely. “Peace loving” Israelis can spend the next ten years doubling the size of West Bank settlements as they under Oslo. Better this time for them no pesky peace process. Eh, “no partner for peace“. Slam dunk for Israel. Bottom’s up and lots of luck. Not to be overly nasty, but I wouldn’t step on a bus or into a pizza parlor in Tel Aviv. Live by the Sword die by the Sword. Where there is political terror there is a political solution. You want peace? You won’t get it with 3 million disenfranchised Palestinians under Israel's boot heel.

RE direct insults which you started. Here I’ll take my turn. Kiss my ass. See that’s all you are doing with your dramatic rhetorical flourishes. Trading school yard barbs. What’s the point? Zionism sucks. It won’t be defeated on the internet.

Zionism is racism. How many mixed towns are there in Israel where people are living side by side? Is there affirmative actions? Are building permits given out without regard to religion? Who does the right of return apply to?


There is a good one here on why Israel is racist.

http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2005/05/1715166.php

Despite your protestations, I’m not reinventing the wheel on this one. Sorry bud. I’d suggest you read the legion well researched articles that document the racist nature of Israel and the ongoing hidosity that is life in the occupied West Bank.

You are defending the indefensible. Why not just try putting yourself, in your pea brain mind’s eye, in the Palestinian’s place. Walk a mile in their shoes. In fact, I think many are walking these days due to endless encirclements and military closures.

Firstly, you disrespected the memory of Rachel Corrie by disrespecting the campaign against Caterpillar. A complete and wanton disregard for the lost life of a vibrant young woman and peace activist by a mainstream murderous Israeli fanatic. Then you have the unmitigated gall to get upset with me for not condemning the tactics of the resistance. What a Zionist double standard. When you apologize for the terrorism that Israel employs daily against the captive civilian population of the West Bank and Gaza, then, maybe just maybe I’ll voice my displeasure at the military operations of the resistance. But you won’t. You’ll deny, or say the it was collateral damage, so blinded you are to reality.



Why would anyone be so wedded to a racist supremacist ideology such as you are is beyond me.

I don’t think that self-determination and basic human rights are mere gift to be doled out by benevolent well-wishers. In any case, Israel and the USA are neither. Human rights are basic rights.

Because it is *so* much better armed.

Its really very simple, the worst enemies of the Arab peopes are the Arab leaders.

And by the way, just because one side is less equiped, doesn't mean that they aren't the agressor, it just means they aren't likely to win. After the Arabs started war after war,and kept losing, its reasonable that there are consequences to their actions.

Good is bad and good, black is white and black, up is down and up-- so sayeth you. Otherwise, why would you be branding the PA "collaborationist"? After all, it has been keeping up with holding both ends against the middle since Arafat's departure, namely maintaining a facade of adherence to the road-map for external consumption while allowing every terrorist on their side to breach the supposed cease fire on a daily basis. Not to mention what occurred under your terrorist idol Arafat, may his name be blotted for eternity. While no one here will attempt to claim Israel has never erred and is beyond reproach (and some facets of Israeli governance are mired by racism; and few would deny the Palestinians of Judea-Samaria are suffering, primarily due the majority's will to pursue belligerence instead of peaceful coexistence), it's a very big stretch from there to it implementing rejectionist policies.

Judea and Samaria a.k.a. the West Bank are disputed territories as per int'l law. Any land therein is up for grabs as they didn't belong to any country prior to May 1948, much less to a Palestinian people, so despite your anti-Zionist (can we say racist?) objections, Jews have rights to settle there as long as no rightful Arab resident is wronged in the processed. Funny, you don't see any problem with how the various Palestinian factions considered the very notion of a peace process, let alone real peace, something pesky. Faisal Husseini admitted this in so many words. So have several other prominent leaders like Arafat. All of them expressed these musings in Arabic so as not to give Westerners reason for concern about their real intentions concerning the Oslo process. All these statements have been amply posted on the internet in many places, but why would an apologist for terror and attempts at genocide like you let such facts confuse you when you've already got a much more convenient opinion?

Why do so many of your cohorts go to places like Gaza and try to shield Palestinian terrorists through organizations like the ISM from IDF reprisals, but scoff at the idea of riding an Israeli bus within Israel proper to sense the fear some Israelis feel due to suicide bombing? Cowardice is the main motivation, but there's also at least a pinch of double standards. You have the gall to ignore that countless Palestinians chose to live by the sword by wreaking death on innocent Israelis, and instead paint the Israeli side as war happy. Never mind that your beloved murderers launched the genocidal intifada which they had prepared long before Sharon visited the Temple Mount, or the numerous murders of Israeli that began merely days after the Oslo process was launched in '93.

Unfortunately, but quite predictably, you're dismissing by omission the favor Israel has done the Palestinians by giving them land control of Gaza and some of Samaria. So why should anyone expect you to be able to count properly and realize that not only have the PA itself admitted that the estimation of the Palestinian population is about 2.4 million (as they had inflated the number), but the million or so of Gaza aren't by now "under Israel's boot" anymore.

There's still no political solution to serve your misguided heroes, nor will there ever be one unless they realize they can't try to turn the entire land into hell for the Israelis without meeting a harsh response. They won't get their solution unless they finally make their mind up what the hell they want to achieve: a state in Judea-Samaria and Gaza or somewhere else. Attempts to establish a state encompassing Israel proper or the expulsion of the Jews to integrate with neigboring Arab countries will only worsen the situation for your misguided idols.

You may erupt with bumper sticker "Zionism sucks" and "Zionism is racism" chants all you wish, but that won't cover up the ugly realities of the profoundly negative qualities of the Palestinian national movement you fall all over yourself to adore, nor for the fact you're going out of your way not to see how you're compromising the well-being and betterment of your gay counterparts under PA rule by supporting the homophobic majority of Palestinian society, at least by default because you back the political movements that oppress them.
And I daresay Zionism won't be defeated out there in the real world either, given the continual failure of your much admired divestment and boycott initiatives. So what real foundation do you have for confidence in this regard?

Supporter of war mongering anti-gay Palestinian forces:
"How many mixed towns are there in Israel where people are living side by side?"

Try these on for size: Haifa, Acho (Acre), Nazrat Illit, Jerusalem, Lod (Lyda), Ramle... there are others too. Pluck your head out of your Marxist rear and get a goddamn education already. But maybe it's too late for you to learn to perform research and find out such facts.

"Is there affirmative actions?"

The latest I've heard is an affirmative action initiative for Arabs soon to be launched by Israel Electric. Pluck your head out of your Marxist rear and get a goddamn education already. But then again, maybe your mind is too stale to be able to check this out.

"Are building permits given out without regard to religion?"

Usually.
Now, if you had really done your homework, you would have discovered that many Arabs don't even go through the motions of applying for building permits, and simply build or enlarge illegally as they please.

"Who does the right of return apply to?"

Well, it sure as heaven shouldn't apply to the descendents of the original 1948 refugees, though I won't be surprised if you retort that of all refugees everywhere on the globe, those particular 1948 refugees are the only ethnic group to ever deserve the extension of refugee status to their offspring, notwithstanding int'l law. When, after all, did int'l law in such contexts deserve your respect except to use it as a sword against your Zionist grinches?

I don't recall attributing to you originality in detracting Israel or counting its faults. To the contrary, I even stressed in more than one place that you were parroting, regurgitating and otherwise repeating material put forth by others. Perhaps you have me confused with another...

Now you have the temerity to ask me to walk in a Palestinian's shoes -- as if I haven't tried (you're clairvoyant?) -- whereas you don't even want to board an Israeli buss or step into a pizza parlor there to sense some of the fear of terror. Then you compound your offense by accusing me/us of "defending the indefensible" though you've been doing just that from the outset. Talk about hutzpa... And while we're on that theme, I'd rather Palestinians walk long distances than have more of their brethren sow death and destruction through terror. Your issue is that you may be out of shape, so you view walking as something to dread and a fate to spare those you idolize and love from. At least they'll remain alive while their brethren wreak less death and mayhem on Israelis whom you consider disposable at any rate. So, let them walk and eat cake too.

I wasn't the one talking about Corrie, yet she does deserve contempt. Why would you bring her up now except to lash out in your desperation at noticing your pro-homophobic stances have been debunked? Likewise, I actually spit on the anti-Caterpillar campaign. And no matter how often you'll charge murder in Corrie's case, it wasn't. And you ought to be damned ashamed for not uttering a word about her foolishness and the callousness of her ISM handlers and colleagues who put her up to her foolish chicken game with the dozer and saw fit to take photos rather than yank her away from the dozer's shovel when they could see her demise coming and could have saved her. She was an avid terror supporter, no peace activist.

When you finally resolve to pull your head out of your willfully misinformed rear and recognize that no population in Gaza is anything like "captive" and stop spouting ludicrous pre-fed propaganda points totally or largely divorced from reality, then we might have a reasonable discussion. In the meantime, you typically believe in misguided faction that any denunciation of the terror and other crimes against humanity committed by your reactionary heroes is a favor for me, rather than your moral duty as a supposedly enlightened person. I'm not looking for favors in this. Only morality is owned any favors in this regard.
I don't have to prove to you anything. You can perform searches of all my posts and see what I have said in actuality. All the same, when you lie, I'll deny and when you hype I'll point out the truth. If you've got problems with that, tough.

When you muse

"Why would anyone be so wedded to a racist supremacist ideology such as you are is beyond me. "

... it's almost like you can cut the irony with a knife, because you bend over backwards to defend and excuse benighted forced that mercilessly persecute your gay counterparts. Why do you so staunchly support those who zealously deprive human rights from Palestinian minorities and seek to step up their efforts at doing so by establishing a new state or merging with neighboring countries while imposing Shari'a?

It's killed more people, too.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3219924,00.html

In interview to Knesset Channel, Eli Yishai sends homosexuals speedy recovery wishes; says 'if there was a pill to cure them, they would all take it' -Attila Somfalvi

Shas Chairman Eli Yishai apparently refuses to acknowledge the fact that homosexuality is not perceived as an incurable disease in modern Israel. In an interview aired on the Knesset Channel Wednesday evening, Yishai made his stance clear by saying that "homosexuals and lesbians are sick people."

"I wish them a speedy recovery," Yishai said when asked about his position on Israel's homosexual community.

"Up to a few years ago, they would be exempt from military service. It's clearly a disease. I didn’t determine this, the science of medicine did. It's a disease. The Torah talks about its severity, and I wish them a speedy recovery. I'm not hiding it," he added.

When asked if he believes homosexuals and lesbians should be treated in order to "cure" them, Yishai made it clear that "I see it as a medical problem."

"You are denying the truth. Up to a number of years ago, homosexuals would be defined as people with a medical problem. Ask all doctors, who for dozens of years saw it as a medical problem," he said.

'Medication would be huge hit'

Later, when asked is as health minister he would work to extend the medicine basket and introduce a special drug for "treating homosexuality," Yishai insisted that "I sincerely hope that they are cured of this thing. A medication for homosexuality has not been invented yet, but I hope it is found."

Yishai has no doubts that a "medication" for the "serious illness" will be a huge hit.

"If there were such a medication, believe me, they would gladly take it. If there was a pill to cure them, they would all go and take it. If it had a medication, they would prefer to fix it, one by one, and take the drug," he concluded.

Responding to Yishai's remarks, Knesset Member Ilan Leibovitch (Shinui) said "Eli Yishai and his friends are the real disease in Israeli society."

Leibovitch, who serves as head of the gay lobby in the Knesset, said Yishai and his associates "are a malignant tumor that jeopardizes the Israeli society. They feed on hatred to those who are different and wish to transform Israel into a third-world state."

I see a lot of the worst sickness of all, in this thread: hatred.

Hatred of otherness. I'd have thought the 20th century would cure us all of that a little bit. Pity.

Best of luck with your nasty little civil war, Israel/Palestine...

You (apartheid Israel lover) in brackets []

[Good is bad and good, black is white and black, up is down and up-- so sayeth you. Otherwise, why would you be branding the PA "collaborationist"]

I disagree. Consider the following:

“Now that the die is cast, the world watches and waits. Palestine is nearly surrounded by the apartheid, racist wall and is held hostage from within by hundreds of checkpoints and roadblocks and military outposts, the illegal Israeli settlements and Israeli-only roads. There is no escape from the hunger and assault that may ensue -- except through the door marked "Upholding Human Rights." If Israel proceeds as planned, it will not only destroy Palestine but itself.”

http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?article_class=3&no=275758&rel_no=1

In my opinion, they, the P.A., was a quisling organization. It was disliked for a number of reasons which Edward Said elaborated on. On the other hand, it was secular.

[After all, it has been keeping up with holding both ends against the middle since Arafat's departure, namely maintaining a facade of adherence to the road-map for external consumption while allowing every terrorist on their side to breach the supposed cease fire on a daily basis. Not to mention what occurred under your terrorist idol Arafat, may his name be blotted for eternity.]

Do you really believe that every military operation was directly ordered by Arafat?

[While no one here will attempt to claim Israel has never erred and is beyond reproach (and some facets of Israeli governance are mired by racism; and few would deny the Palestinians of Judea-Samaria are suffering, primarily due the majority's will to pursue belligerence instead of peaceful coexistence), it's a very big stretch from there to it implementing rejectionist policies.]

Under UN Security Council Resolution 242 “Retrait des forces armées israéliennes des territoires occupés lors du récent conflit.”

The direct translation: get the hell out of the occupied territories. Do not pass go. Do NOT collect $100.

Then again, I know, I know, the UN are a bunch of Jew hating anti-Semites each and every last one of them, despite the fact that they recognized Israhell in On November 30th, 1947, voting to approve the partition of Palestine (land that did not belong to the UN) into two states -- Jewish and Arab

[Judea and Samaria a.k.a. the West Bank are disputed territories as per int'l law.]

No, IT IS occupied land. The resolution was clear and unequivocal despite Zionist chicanery in the English version (see Above) In any case, Israhell is clearly in violation of the spirit of 242 (the English language version) as has been for decades.

[Any land therein is up for grabs as they didn't belong to any country prior to May 1948,]

Surely you jest. You’ve got ZIONISM on the brain!

[Much less to a Palestinian people]

AHA Very good. I’m glad you at least acknowledge that there are Palestinians unlike some of your more rightward leaning Zionist compatriots.


[so despite your anti-Zionist (can we say racist?) objections, Jews have rights to settle there as long as no rightful Arab resident is wronged in the processed.]

Delusions and wishful thinking. A large error in basic logic.

[Funny, you don't see any problem with how the various Palestinian factions considered the very notion of a peace process, let alone real peace, something pesky. Faisal Husseini admitted this in so many words. So have several other prominent leaders like Arafat. All of them expressed these musings in Arabic so as not to give Westerners reason for concern about their real intentions concerning the Oslo process. All these statements have been amply posted on the internet in many places, but why would an apologist for terror and attempts at genocide like you let such facts confuse you when you've already got a much more convenient opinion?]

The failure of Oslo? That is worth examining. I believe that Israel itself sent the Palestinian negotiators at Taba packing pending the outcome of then election which emplaced the Butcher of Beirut as Prime Minister.

[Why do so many of your cohorts go to places like Gaza and try to shield Palestinian terrorists through organizations like the ISM from IDF reprisals, but scoff at the idea of riding an Israeli bus within Israel proper to sense the fear some Israelis feel due to suicide bombing]

I am not mad at your for your ignorance because I am imagining mitigating factors. That you are deep down inside a nice guy. Maybe even that you are a good looking gay Zionist male that I would find physically attractive. I suppose I could forgive you for buying the lies that your parents have fed you, but it really isn’t that simple. My God, the documentation of the horror that Israel’s occupation of Gaza caused for the inhabitants is so extensive, as to find your denial beyond disbelief. Have you seen “The Gaza Strip”? http://www.littleredbutton.com/gaza/

have you ever picked up even one issue of WRMEA (and I know you have) http://www.wrmea.com/ in the last decade while you visited Barnes & Noble? In every single issue there more and more pictures of more and more civilians made homeless by Israel. I should add using Caterpillar bulldozers. Okay, you say the Arab press is biased, then what about your own Jewish Israeli peace groups such as http://www.icahd.org/eng/ Israeli Committee Against Home Demolitions. How can you be so heartless?

[Cowardice is the main motivation, but there's also at least a pinch of double standards. You have the gall to ignore that countless Palestinians chose to live by the sword by wreaking death on innocent Israelis, and instead paint the Israeli side as war happy. Never mind that your beloved murderers launched the genocidal intifada which they had prepared long before Sharon visited the Temple Mount, or the numerous murders of Israeli that began merely days after the Oslo process was launched in '93.]

The onus and culpability is on the occupier. Israel is the military occupier in violation of scores of UN resolutions. It is a rogue nation. The wall that is being built is being done so illegally on occupied land in contravention of the world court.

It is a natural human response to rebel against oppression.

The incidence of military operations took after 2000, the second intifida.

In any case, cowardice would seem to be dropping bombs from f-16’s (U.s. gifted) rather than the military operations of the two legged variety. Call them what you will, but I don’t think the term cowardice applies.

“In its July 2004 ruling, the International Court of Justice (World Court) in The Hague, Netherlands held that construction of the barrier is "contrary to international law," in part because it "destroyed and confiscated" property, it greatly restricts Palestinian movement, and it "severely impedes the exercise by the Palestinian people of [the] right to self-determination”

[Unfortunately, but quite predictably, you're dismissing by omission the favor Israel has done the Palestinians by giving them land control of Gaza and some of Samaria]

Can we dispense with the biblical place names?

Vacating the illegal settlements in Gaza was obviously a step in the right direction. Unlike the residents of New Orleans, house owners in the evacuated settlements will receive a compensation packages of between $150,000 and approximately $400,000. Of U.S. taxpayer money.

[so why should anyone expect you to be able to count properly and realize that not only have the PA itself admitted that the estimation of the Palestinian population is about 2.4 million (as they had inflated the number), but the million or so of Gaza aren't by now "under Israel's boot" anymore].

Yes, they reluctantly relinquished the Jewish colonies in Gaza. The pure evil of which itself cannot be overestimated. Stealing nearly half of the tiny parcel of land for the Settlers and making the native Palestinian population 1,376,289 http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gz.html
live on the rest and sucking dry aquifers. Your concern for Palestinians is overwhelming. Dare I suggest it may be a tad disingenuous?

By the way, the exits and entrances out of and into Gaza exist as the “mercy” of Israel. They can be closed at a moment’s notice. In a very real sense it has been an open air prison until very lately.

[There's still no political solution to serve your misguided heroes]

Israel is violating its obligations under international law.

[nor will there ever be one unless they realize they can't try to turn the entire land into hell for the Israelis without meeting a harsh response. They won't get their solution unless they finally make their mind up what the hell they want to achieve: a state in Judea-Samaria and Gaza or somewhere else.]

Pardon? Please don’t tell me you are advocating ethnic transfer of the Palestinian population. Indeed, that is a dark Zionist fantasy, but not a surprising one considering the 700,000 Palestinians that were dispossessed of their land and homes.

[Attempts to establish a state encompassing Israel proper or the expulsion of the Jews to integrate with neigboring Arab countries will only worsen the situation for your misguided idols]

My God. Israel is violating international law. It is occupying the West Bank. The U.S. taxpayer is footing the bill. Furthermore, your lovely little Zionist Disney land illegally occupying land has major consequences for the U.S. too in creating an entire pissed off region.

[You may erupt with bumper sticker "Zionism sucks" and "Zionism is racism" chants all you wish, but that won't cover up the ugly realities of the profoundly negative qualities of the Palestinian national movement you fall all over yourself to adore, nor for the fact you're going out of your way not to see how you're compromising the well-being and betterment of your gay counterparts under PA rule by supporting the homophobic majority of Palestinian society, at least by default because you back the political movements that oppress them.]

Palestinian Society was historically more secular. Israel ruined that. Israel created the conditions that “made Hamas an indispensable social movement”
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=9686

[And I daresay Zionism won't be defeated out there in the real world either, given the continual failure of your much admired divestment and boycott initiatives. So what real foundation do you have for confidence in this regard?]

It is unsustainable. It is reviled the world over. It is a colonial throwback. It is a racist, apartheid regime. Its benefactor the U.S. is a teeter tottering on economic catastrophe swimming in a mountain of 6 trillion accumulated debt. Eventually, it will have to cut some honest deal. It can become a real democracy for all its citizens (one state solution) or it can vacate fully the West Bank. There is no need for a phony peace process as cover for doubling settlements. The UN resolutions in place must be enforced.

Under such pacific circumstances, I might even consider visiting.

[supporter of war mongering anti-gay Palestinian forces:]

Cough cough. Israel is the occupier.

[How many mixed towns are there in Israel where people are living side by side]

[try these on for size: Haifa, Acho (Acre), Nazrat Illit, Jerusalem, Lod (Lyda), Ramle... there are others too. Pluck your head out of your Marxist rear and get a goddamn education already. But maybe it's too late for you to learn to perform research and find out such facts.]

Israel is a deeply segregated nation. Again, at some point when Israel fulfills its obligations under international law, I’d be happy to visit your model integrated community. I hope I’m not disappointed.

"Is there affirmative actions?"

[The latest I've heard is an affirmative action initiative for Arabs soon to be launched by Israel Electric. Pluck your head out of your Marxist rear and get a goddamn education already. But then again, maybe your mind is too stale to be able to check this out.]

I can see that. Very good! It’s a step in the right direction!
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3218260,00.html
“New book reveals more than half of Arab households in Israel live in poverty, Arabs discriminated against in terms of budgets, funding. Study recommends government take affirmative action to change situation”



["Are building permits given out without regard to religion?" ]

“Over the past three decades of occupation, Israel has employed in the West Bank a policy of planning, development, and building that severely restricts construction by Palestinians, while allocating broad expanses of land to establish and expand Jewish settlements. In this way, Israel has created a situation in which thousands of Palestinians are unable to obtain permits to build on their land, and are compelled to build without a permit because they have no other way to provide shelter for their families. “

http://www.btselem.org/English/Planning_and_Building/Index.asp

[Now, if you had really done your homework, you would have discovered that many Arabs don't even go through the motions of applying for building permits, and simply build or enlarge illegally as they please. ]

See Above



"Who does the right of return apply to?"

[Well, it sure as heaven shouldn't apply to the descendents of the original 1948 refugees, though I won't be surprised if you retort that of all refugees everywhere on the globe, those particular 1948 refugees are the only ethnic group to ever deserve the extension of refugee status to their offspring, notwithstanding int'l law. When, after all, did int'l law in such contexts deserve your respect except to use it as a sword against your Zionist grinches?]

to be continued. in the meantime, for your edification.

http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?article_class=3&no=275758&rel_no=1

Israeli Policy a 'Reign of Terror'
Defense Minister declares Palestine part of 'Axis of Evil'

Call it deja vu but Israeli television reports are branding Palestian President Mahmoud Abbas as irrelevant in a move identical to their position toward the late Palestinian president Yasser Arafat. And though Hamas has largely honored the truce established last year, not only has Israel broken that truce over 24,000 times resulting in nearly 200 Palestinians deaths, Shin Bet has rejected an extended truce with Hamas.



Israeli Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz

©2006 http://www.wikipedia.org
IMEMC & Agencies reports that 31 Palestinians have been killed since Hamas won the majority vote in the Palestinian elections on Jan. 25. These deaths are part of a retaliatory strategy as outlined by Israeli Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz. According to Mofaz, the Palestinian people have made their government part of the "Axis of Evil" along with Syria and Iran. As a result, "punitive measures" will be taken by Israeli forces against all the Palestinian people, he stated.

Making good on the threat, on Monday, Feb. 20, Israeli Occupation Forces opened fire and threw gas grenades at high school girls in the West Bank city of Nablus. According to the WAFA news agency, Israeli soldiers broke into the high school in the Til village south of Nablus city, and along with extensive shooting, "fired a number of gas grenades towards the school, causing a state of panic and suffocation among students and teachers."

According to the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), Israeli forces occupied two schools it runs in the Balata Refugee camp. "The Israelis continued to occupy the boys' school after leaving the girls' school today." Agency officials also stated that "Israeli forces continue to block a health clinic, which prevents patients or staff from leaving the building." And in a pre-dawn raid, Israeli soldiers swept into Balata refugee camp and Nablus city, arrested six citizens and "fired into the chest of Usama Al-Banna", an unarmed resident of the Balata refugee camp. Foreign-born United Nations Relief Work Agency employees were ordered to leave the Balata refugee camp during the Israeli attack.

In other action, Israeli soldiers wounded children and arrested citizens in the West Bank cities of Hebron, Nablus, Jenin and Bethlehem. The attacks and arrests were justified according to the Israelis because the individuals were "resisting the occupation." In Hebron, Israeli soldiers broke into the towns of ad-Dhaheriya, Beit Ummar and Sa'ir, south and north of the city and stormed a number of houses, shooting and tear-gassing residents. As a result, five children were wounded and hospitalized. In Jenin, a large contingent of Israeli soldiers stormed into Qabatya town, south of the city, ravaged the contents of homes and conducted a house-to-house search campaign, arresting several residents. In Bethlehem, armored vehicles and jeeps stormed the Al-Nahaleen area and Al-Eza refugee camps, firing on people and homes as they searched houses and arrested residents, leading them to undisclosed locations, security forces stated.

In the Gaza Strip, Israeli artillery fired several missiles near the towns of Beit Lahiya and Beit Hanuon, north of the Gaza Strip; however no injuries were reported. Meanwhile scores of house demolitions continued in the West Bank "under the pretext of missing permits -- a common tool used to expel Palestinians -- ensuring the theft of lands for construction of settlements or military zones," WAFA reported.

Along with non-stop military assaults on the Palestinian people, Zionist Israel's success in waging economic warfare on the indigenous people of Palestine may prove to be even more deadly as they seek to put the starving on a diet, as some Israeli officials joked, or as the New York Times reported, implement a plan to starve Hamas out of power. Israel not only refuses to relinquish the hundreds of millions of dollars in tax revenues it generates from the Palestinians on their behalf, but has threatened to block aid money from countries, such as Sweden and the Arab Alliance, from reaching Palestinian banks. These dollars are vitally needed for Palestinian survival.

"Palestinian importers are required to pay the Israeli authorities the value-added tax of 17 percent, as well as whatever custom taxes are due on goods that come in on their way to the West Bank or Gaza. These transactions (along with direct Palestinian transactions with Israeli firms and merchants) last year yielded revenues of US$711 million," Amira Hass reported for Haaretz. "According to the Oslo Accords (and by any standards of common sense and basic justice), the revenues should serve the people who ultimately buy the goods. These tax receipts are not donations of goodwill from Israel; they are not charity. This is not like, say, Dutch foreign aid money, which is given freely by the Dutch people and can be withheld if the Dutch choose to stop giving it. These are tax revenues that are due to the people in the territories where the goods are headed, and the Israelis have no right to hold them up."

Meanwhile the United States and European Union plan to withhold all financial assistance to the Hamas led government. After the U.S. Congress voted to withhold $400 million a year of aid money from the Palestinian Authority, President Bush demanded that $50 million that had already been given be returned. Within days the Palestinian Authority returned the $50 million, which further deepened their financial plight. But Israel's control of border crossings may create even greater hardship. "The closure of these crossings will paralyze the economy," Palestine's Minister of Economy Mazen Sinnoqrot stated.

Last year the BBC and other media around the world reported that in Darfur refugees were being systematically starved, black Africans were deliberately being driven off the land and they were being subjected to a "reign of terror" in the region, according to the UN Commissioner for Human Rights. "Militias prevented food deliveries and stopped anyone leaving," the report said. One aid worker in Kailek described what happened there as the "politics of starvation".

If Israel gets its way, how long will it be before Palestine is in a similar situation -- especially if, once again, Israel unleashes a reign of terror through unrelenting military assault? For nearly six decades Palestinians have been systematically ethnically cleaned -- driven off their land, and Israel has all too often prevented food deliveries as well as access to medicines and water (as documented by hundreds of UN Resolutions against Israel). However, the complete economic deprivation that Israel insists on, in this writer's opinion, is far beyond a slap in the face at democracy by refusing to acknowledge a Hamas-led government, but is an attempt to commit genocide against the Palestinian people.

Now that the die is cast, the world watches and waits. Palestine is nearly surrounded by the apartheid, racist wall and is held hostage from within by hundreds of checkpoints and roadblocks and military outposts, the illegal Israeli settlements and Israeli-only roads. There is no escape from the hunger and assault that may ensue -- except through the door marked "Upholding Human Rights." If Israel proceeds as planned, it will not only destroy Palestine but itself.

But the "Estee Slaughter" demo was still kinda stupid.

Condom = "apartheid" wall?

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"apartheid Israel lover"

Some pitiful joker you are.

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"I disagree. Consider the following:
“Now that the die is cast, the world watches and waits. Palestine is nearly surrounded by the apartheid, racist wall and is held hostage from within by hundreds of checkpoints and roadblocks and military outposts, the illegal Israeli settlements and Israeli-only roads. There is no escape from the hunger and assault that may ensue -- except through the door marked "Upholding Human Rights." If Israel proceeds as planned, it will not only destroy Palestine but itself.”
http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?article_class=3&no=275758&rel_no=1 "

LOL! Little have you known that the security barrier is only wall for about 5% of its route (where fencing doesn't protect Israeli areas from snipers and such). The remainder is comprised of chain-linked fences. You see, your fanaticism causes you to mindlessly quote a passage rife with anti-Israel opinions of its author that not only contains outright lies, but doesn't even prove your point. Where the hell is the proof therein for your disagreement? I appear to have underestimated your mind's state.
Moreover, it features the tired lie of "Israeli-only roads", but the reality is that Palestinians may apply for a permit to use such roads (which were only paved for security reasons as Jews had been massively targeted for murder on the "regular" roads. It wasn't as if Israelis were targetting Palestinian commuters for murder.) and if they meet all the *security related* criteria they get to use those roads.
As far as branding Israeli residential areas illegal in a sweeping manner, let me edify you:

(a.) The Council of the League of Nations, as good an int'l body as any, decided in 1922, as part of the Mandate for Palestine which geographically included all of present-day Israel and the disputed territories of Judea, Samaria and Gaza, that one of the purposes of the Mandate was to "encourage... close settlement by Jews on the land".

(b.) No institution nor body nor court nor tribunal of international standing has ever passed binding judgment on this. What they usually call "international law" is actually political opinion, usually from countries with strident anti-Israel positions. Furthermore, several outstanding jurists of int'l law claim they aren't illegal like Eugene Rostow and int'l legal scholar Stephen Schwebel.
The former states: "The heated question of Israel's settlements in the West Bank during the occupation period should be viewed in this perspective. The British Mandate recognized the right of the Jewish people to "close settlement" in the whole of the Mandated territory. It was provided that local conditions might require Great Britain to "postpone" or "withhold" Jewish settlement in what is now Jordan. This was done in 1922. But the Jewish right of settlement in Palestine west of the Jordan river, that is, in Israel, the West Bank, Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip, was made unassailable. That right has never been terminated and cannot be terminated except by a recognized peace between Israel and its neighbors. And perhaps not even then, in view of Article 80 of the U.N. Charter, "the Palestine article," which provides that "nothing in the Charter shall be construed ... to alter in any manner the rights whatsoever of any states or any peoples or the terms of existing international instruments...."

Some governments have taken the view that under the Geneva Convention of 1949, which deals with the rights of civilians under military occupation, Jewish settlements in the West Bank are illegal, on the ground that the Convention prohibits an occupying power from flooding the occupied territory with its own citizens. President Carter supported this view, but President Reagan reversed him, specifically saying that the settlements are legal but that further settlements should be deferred since they pose a psychological obstacle to the peace process.

In any case, the issue of the legality of the settlements should not come up in the proposed conference, the purpose of which is to end the military occupation by making peace. When the occupation ends, the Geneva Convention becomes irrelevant. If there is to be any division of the West Bank between Israel and Jordan, the Jewish right of settlement recognized by the Mandate will have to be taken into account in the process of making peace.

The (First) Bush administration seems to consider the West Bank and the Gaza Strip to be "foreign" territory to which Israel has no claim. Yet the Jews have the same right to settle there as they have to settle in Haifa. The West Bank and the Gaza Strip were never parts of Jordan, and Jordan's attempt to annex the West Bank was not generally recognized and has now been abandoned. The two parcels of land are parts of the Mandate that have not yet been allocated to Jordan, to Israel, or to any other state, and are a legitimate subject for discussion. (http://www.tzemachdovid.org/Facts/islegal1.shtml).

I take it you consider any Palestinian organization that strays from the theocratic, Nazi-like racist, anti-gay homophobic, religiously fanatic hard line as a quisling organization... and yet you have the gall to consider yourself progressive and pro-peace! At any rate, I'm at least drawing on factual reality whereas you're going on your opinions alone on this matter (whether or not the PA has been "collaborationist").

I said:
After all, the PA has been holding both ends against the middle since Arafat's departure, namely maintaining a facade of adherence to the road-map for external consumption while allowing every terrorist on their side to breach the supposed ceasefire on a daily basis.

- I don't see you disagreeing. So far so good.

I continued:
Not to mention what occurred under your terrorist idol Arafat, may his name be blotted for eternity.

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"Do you really believe that every military operation was directly ordered by Arafat?"

First off, "military operations" is an appropriate term. The proper ones are terror (the overwhelming majority of attacks) and guerilla warfare (the rest). Now, do you reckon that the fact Arafat may not have directly ordered them all merits his transformation into a saintly benevolent man in your mind? Oh wait, I forgot... he's a Quisling to you anyhow.

I said:
While no one here will attempt to claim Israel has never erred and is beyond reproach (and some facets of Israeli governance are mired by racism; and few would deny the Palestinians of Judea-Samaria are suffering, primarily due the majority's will to pursue belligerence instead of peaceful coexistence), it's a very big stretch from there to it implementing rejectionist policies.

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"Under UN Security Council Resolution 242 “Retrait des forces armיes israיliennes des territoires occupיs lors du rיcent conflit.”

The direct translation: get the hell out of the occupied territories. blah blah blah puke cluck belch cluck cluck. "

Firstly, don't waste anyone's time with foreign languages; you know, I can inundate you with Hebrew or Arabic lines enough to keep you reeling for days on end. Secondly, here's the
newsflash: in contrast to your anti-Israel spin on the facts, the relevant passage actually states: "Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces *from territories* occupied in the recent conflict;" (My asterisks). http://www.mideastweb.org/242.htm
Naturally, Arab states insisted on a provision for total Israeli withdrawal. After lengthy deliberations, the wording "withdrawal from territories" was chosen over "withdrawal from the territories". Anti-Israel zealots like you naturally chose to interpret the two as synynomous; such is the nature indefatigable rabid anti-Israel spin, like trying the bizarre ploy of lying that the UN recognized Israel in On Nov 30th 1947 (??), not forgetting to emit that the land of Israel didn't belong to the int'l body (a refrain which is employed by quite a few antisemites).

I said:
Judea and Samaria a.k.a. the West Bank are disputed territories as per int'l law.

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"No, IT IS occupied land. The resolution was clear and unequivocal despite Zionist chicanery in the English version (see Above) In any case, Israhell is clearly in violation of the spirit of 242 (the English language version) as has been for decades. "

So now you suddenly decided to ditch the French and switch to an English language version? I thought you were proud of your ability to cite it in a supposedly more cosmopolitan "European" language often used by fellow fanatic leftists who reject the Bush-led American cultural hegemony... At least I rely on the original English version rather than something puked by a supporter of fundamentalist gay persecutors.
The resolution does emphasize "the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war", but it isn't Israel who's been at fault for this. Time for you to check out the "Three No's of Khartoum" (No to negotiations, No to recognition, No to peace with Israel) Arab league resolution about the time UNSCR #242 was adopted; the PLO's Phased Elimination of Israel doctrine adopted in 1974; The fact that Judea-Samaria was conquered from Jordan (not from the "Palestinians" who didn't even consider themselves such) that siezed it illegally as per int'l law and UN resolutions in 1948 after it had been a no-man's land and Jewish settlement on it was encouraged by the aforementioned 1922 Council of the League of Nations resolution. Anyway, Judea-Samaria wasn't seized from the Palestinians but from Jordan, which is why they're disputed territories as per int'l law (not to be confused with the ubiquitous anti-Israel and pro-Palestinian interpretations).

I said:
Any land therein is up for grabs as they didn't belong to any country prior to May 1948,

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"Surely you jest. You’ve got ZIONISM on the brain! "

What a shattering rebuttal, Einstein! It hardly scratches the surface of the evidence I've expounded on and elaborated about in this post. The only question now is, will you be able to suspend your pro-Hamas zealotry long enough to give all my well-supported elaborations time to sink in, or are you hell bent on disregarding it all for the sake of the convenient opinions you've held so far?

I said:
[Judea and Samaria a.k.a. the West Bank are disputed territories as per int'l law. Any land therein is up for grabs as they didn't belong to any country prior to May 1948,] much less to a Palestinian people

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"AHA Very good. I’m glad you at least acknowledge that there are Palestinians unlike some of your more rightward leaning Zionist compatriots.

You've just taken another shot that missed. Even rabid Kahanists recognize that Palestinians exist (we're both using present tense here), so the only controversy is about whether a Palestinian people existed back in 1948 and before. You and your cohorts say yes but your claim is clearly unfounded except in revisionist history narratives.

I said:
so despite your anti-Zionist (can we say racist?) objections, Jews have rights to settle there as long as no rightful Arab resident is wronged in the process.

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"Delusions and wishful thinking. A large error in basic logic. "

In other words, you're saying now that Jews have no right to settle there? Thanks for coming clean on that. BTW, if you had honestly studied the topic you would have learned there are vast uninhabited land tracts in those territories and Jews have purchased most of the land they moved into previously settled by Arabs. But that wouldn't sit well with your pre-conceived notions about this subject, would it? You rather keep on maintaining that each and every instance of a Jew moving in there has entailed displacement of "indigenous" Palestinians.

I said:
Funny, you don't see any problem with how the various Palestinian factions considered the very notion of a peace process, let alone real peace, something pesky. Faisal Husseini admitted this in so many words. So have several other prominent leaders like Arafat. All of them expressed these musings in Arabic so as not to give Westerners reason for concern about their real intentions concerning the Oslo process. All these statements have been amply posted on the internet in many places, but why would an apologist for terror and attempts at genocide like you let such facts confuse you when you've already got a much more convenient opinion?

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"The failure of Oslo? That is worth examining. I believe that Israel itself sent the Palestinian negotiators at Taba packing pending the outcome of then election which emplaced the Butcher of Beirut as Prime Minister. "

You "believe"?! I don't care for beliefs regarding this; everyone has at least one. The facts are what I'm concerned with. What good has being such a clown done for you in this exchange? Please get your lazy stale mind to cast aside the anti-Israel kool-aid and learn how Arafat delivered the final blows to the Oslo process. You might try studying what Clinton had to say. Or is he a Likud shill too?

I said:
Why do so many of your cohorts go to places like Gaza and try to shield Palestinian terrorists through organizations like the ISM from IDF reprisals, but scoff at the idea of riding an Israeli bus within Israel proper to sense the fear some Israelis feel due to suicide bombing

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"I am not mad at your for your ignorance because I am imagining mitigating factors. Blah blah psycho babble mumbo-jumbo pap yap yap . I suppose I could forgive you for buying the lies that your parents have fed you, but it really isn’t that simple. My God, the documentation of the horror that Israel’s occupation of Gaza caused for the inhabitants is so extensive, as to find your denial beyond disbelief. Have you seen “The Gaza Strip”? http://www.littleredbutton.com/gaza/ "

You've been floating one hell of a bubble that gets burst now -- I'm already in my 30's and have formed my own political positions, I'm not some impressionable teenager going on convictions soaked up from his parents.
This "gas poisoning attack" thing featuring so often on that website is libel, a certain lie which you've eagerly fallen for. I'm afraid a wake up would be too rude for you to bear, so you rather avoid studying what really occurred, if at all. I'll bet you've even fallen for the fake funeral processions staged for propaganda purposes where Palestinian "corpses" were seen from an aerial drone falling off the stretchers and promptly leaping back onto them.
Much of the documentation you speak of is either fabricated or wildly hyped, but you either wouldn't know that because you avoid more neutral sources like the plague or don't care about the real facts when you have such a tasty kool-aid to drink from.

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"have you ever picked up even one issue of WRMEA (and I know you have) http://www.wrmea.com/ in the last decade while you visited Barnes & Noble? In every single issue there more and more pictures of more and more civilians made homeless by Israel. I should add using Caterpillar bulldozers. Okay, you say the Arab press is biased, then what about your own Jewish Israeli peace groups such as http://www.icahd.org/eng/ Israeli Committee Against Home Demolitions. "

Here goes your pitiful clairvoyance again: I haven't picked up WRMEA issues. And fyi, I haven't approved of home demolitions in a blanket manner. I believe that only homes where at least two occupants were terrorists and/or their family approved of murder of innocents should have been destroyed.

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"How can you be so heartless? "

Your attempt to harp on emotions is laughably pathetic and dismissed, all the more so seeing that you don't extend the same empathy to Israeli victims of Palestinian aggression.

I said:
Cowardice is the main motivation [for your balking at the idea of riding an Israeli bus within Israel proper to sense the fear some Israelis feel due to suicide bombing], but there's also at least a pinch of double standards. You have the gall to ignore that countless Palestinians chose to live by the sword by wreaking death on innocent Israelis, and instead paint the Israeli side as war happy. Never mind that your beloved murderers launched the genocidal intifada which they had prepared long before Sharon visited the Temple Mount, or the numerous murders of Israeli that began merely days after the Oslo process was launched in '93.

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"The onus and culpability is on the occupier. Israel is the military occupier in violation of scores of UN resolutions. It is a rogue nation. The wall that is being built is being done so illegally on occupied land in contravention of the world court.
"It is a natural human response to rebel against oppression."

What a bunch of painfully lame excuses, irrelevant to what you attempt to rebut at that. Not to mention the obvious spin ("rogue nation") and utterly shallow observation ("violation of scores of UN resolutions"). When virtual push comes to virtual shove, you prefer to uncritically throw a smokescreen rather than even simply move on to the next matter. Besides, Oslo I didn't stipulate Israel should compleately evacuate the territories, let alone on day 1. Nor did it permit Israeli breaches to be dealt with by unleashing a massive violent onslaught. Again, you'll go to every length and cling to the flimsiest pretexts to excuse the Palestinian culpability. Your ignorance and predictable spinning would be totally laughable if it weren't so detrimental to the interests of your queer counterparts in the region. Besides, the IJC had already had a pre-determined "verdict" and it was a show that had been sold to the anti-Israel zealots from the outset. It's ruling has no real standing in int'l law and most states knew it was out of line and accordingly refused to take it seriously. Also, the barrier's route has been altered by Israeli Supreme Court fiat several times since the IJC convened and most of it is within 3 miles of the 1949 armistice line (Green Line), though I doubt you care about this even in the least. You may throw around all the buzz words you wish, but you still will have been refuted on this matter.

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"The incidence of military operations took after 2000, the second intifida."

Your command of the facts on this point is worse than laughable. Arafat unleashed the 2nd intifida on Sep 27 2000. C'mon, don't be such a blatant coward -- take a peek at a random history book or website other than communist ones.

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"In any case, cowardice would seem to be dropping bombs from f-16’s (U.s. gifted) rather than the military operations of the two legged variety. Call them what you will, but I don’t think the term cowardice applies. "

That's a creative interpretation of cowardice, peculiar though may be, as well as puerile. After all, Israel proved in the Jenin battle in 2002 and in many other raids on terrorists holed up in buildings within towns and refugee camps that its armed forces aren't afraid to fight ground battles and face to face. But then again you may have gotten the unfounded idea that Israel's security forces have only conducted aerial operations so far.

I said:
Unfortunately, but quite predictably, you're dismissing by omission the favor Israel has done the Palestinians by giving them land control of Gaza and some of Samaria

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"Can we dispense with the biblical place names? "

These names prolifically appear in UN and State Department documents at least up until 1950. If they had Arab names found in the Qur'an which you used, would you be willing to abandon those names?

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"Vacating the illegal settlements in Gaza was obviously a step in the right direction."

And your desired objective is what, vacating all the settlements in Israel proper? Hopefully you'll be candid about this question.

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"house owners in the evacuated settlements will receive a compensation packages of between $150,000 and approximately $400,000. Of U.S. taxpayer money."

You should be pointing your finger at the State Dep and GW. They had insisted all along that the Gazan Jews be expelled in a hurry with no time allowed for arranging for alternative livelihoods for them all elsewhere.

I said:
so why should anyone expect you to be able to count properly and realize that not only have the PA itself admitted that the estimate of the Palestinian population is about 2.4 million (as they had inflated the number), but the million or so of Gaza aren't by now "under Israel's boot" anymore.

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"Yes, they reluctantly relinquished the Jewish colonies in Gaza. The pure evil of which itself cannot be overestimated. Stealing nearly half of the tiny parcel of land for the Settlers and making the native Palestinian population 1,376,289 http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gz.html
live on the rest and sucking dry aquifers."

More hokey buzzwords e.g. "colony", "pure evil", "native" being emitted in melodramatic fashion for effect with little truth behind them, compounded with hyperbole, in defiance of historical realities and facts. like how Paslestinians have the right to apply to the Supreme Court and receive injunctions and rulings against appropriation of land, or the fact that rightful owners of land confiscated through eminent domain receive compensation.

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"Your concern for Palestinians is overwhelming. Dare I suggest it may be a tad disingenuous?"

So far I've seen your overflowing empathy with Palestinians being offset or worse by your adulation of the fundamentalist anti-gay racist murdered among them. If give free reign, these orgs will to saddle their brethren with a full fledged theocratic regime that will murder and torture impure elements in droves.

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"By the way, the exits and entrances out of and into Gaza exist as the “mercy” of Israel. They can be closed at a moment’s notice. In a very real sense it has been an open air prison until very lately. "

That's what happens when your misguided heroes choose to live by the sword attempting to rid the entire land of Jews (note the incessant barrages of Qassams and mortars into Israel proper) instead of opting for peaceful coexistence. Apparently your parents never taught you there's a price to pay for choosing a life of violence, even when it's directed at (some) Jews.

I said:
There's still no political solution to serve your misguided heroes

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"Israel is violating its obligations under international law."

Just like before, Einstein, you're so funny, it's making me ache. Your Jihadist heroes are in blatant violation of many laws and most of their undertakings.

I said:
nor will there ever be one unless they realize they can't try to turn the entire land into hell for the Israelis without meeting a harsh response. They won't get their solution unless they finally make their mind up what the hell they want to achieve: a state in Judea-Samaria and Gaza or somewhere else.

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"Pardon? Please don’t tell me you are advocating ethnic transfer of the Palestinian population. Indeed, that is a dark Zionist fantasy, but not a surprising one considering the 700,000 Palestinians that were dispossessed of their land and homes. "

What's with your flights of imagination? Learn how to parse a sentence.
They must decide where exactly they want their country _if_ they even really want one. I've seen indications that their real objective is to integrate with neighboring Arab countries. And no one should be surprised at this juncture to notice you're clinging on to the tired anti-Zionist lie that 700,000 Arabs were driven out by force and their property stolen. I can retrieve Arab newspaper excerpts from that period (posted on this site and others) that easily show that more than 100,000 left at the orders of the Arab High Committee before even being threatened by the progress of war, but it's time you learned to get over your entrenched laziness and do it yourself. Many others fled of their own volition due to the warfare. Your (plural) intellectual dishonesty and laziness are legendary by now.

I said:
Attempts to establish a state encompassing Israel proper or the expulsion of the Jews to integrate with neighboring Arab countries will only worsen the situation for your misguided idols.

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"My God. Israel is violating international law. It is occupying the West Bank. The U.S. taxpayer is footing the bill. Furthermore, your lovely little Zionist Disney land illegally occupying land has major consequences for the U.S. too in creating an entire pissed off region. "

I'm floored, again... this cluster of umpteenth-time repeated diversionary assertions is a non-rebuttal if there ever was one. Not to mention its condescendingly racist overtones in that you're absolve Arabs and Muslims from their responsibility for their feelings and actions, as if they've got a birthright privilege to get pissed off and sow death and destruction to manifest their sentiment and just take any action they please anyway, as though that's the natural order of things in the universe. But heavens forfeit Jews get the same privileges, no bloody way, not ever.

I said:
You may erupt with bumper sticker "Zionism sucks" and "Zionism is racism" chants all you wish, but that won't cover up the ugly realities of the profoundly negative qualities of the Palestinian national movement you fall all over yourself to adore, nor the fact you're going out of your way not to see how you're compromising the well-being and betterment of your gay counterparts under PA rule by supporting the homophobic majority of Palestinian society, at least by default because you back the political movements that oppress them.

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"Palestinian Society was historically more secular. Israel ruined that. Israel created the conditions that “made Hamas an indispensable social movement”
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=9686"

Israel's contribution to the religeous radicalization within Palestinian society is marginal in the overall scheme of things. In this context Neve Gordon's pro-Hamas apologia webpage is a propaganda masterpiece in that it makes a fleeting allusion to the PA's curoption couched in generic terms and then proceeds to lay the blame on Israel rather than the PA for its horrific neglect of most strata among the Palestinians that impelled Hamas to fill that void. Gordon naturally omits that the PA's leadership preferred to siphon off funds meant to prop up certain strata and the Palestinian economy for the purposes I enumerated above in another post (and I've yet to see any indication you're as much as disappointed by that behavior).

I said:
And I daresay Zionism won't be defeated out there in the real world either, given the continual failure of your much admired divestment and boycott initiatives. So what real foundation do you have for confidence in this regard?

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"It is unsustainable. Blah blah puke bumper stickers feel-good buzzwords yadda yadda cluck cluck Its benefactor the U.S. is a teeter tottering on economic catastrophe swimming in a mountain of 6 trillion accumulated debt. Eventually, it will have to cut some honest deal. It can become a real democracy for all its citizens (one state solution) or it can vacate fully the West Bank. There is no need for a phony peace process as cover for doubling settlements. The UN resolutions in place must be enforced.
Under such pacific circumstances, I might even consider visiting. "

If anything, the frivolous among the UN General Assembly resolutions must be blotted from history, much less enforced. And when the Palestinians live up to their int'l obligations (which you always seek to absolve them from since they're Arab and you reckon they have a birthright privilege to flout all principles of civil behavior and laws) and stop committing war crimes and such (namely abandoning your much beloved norm of attempting genocide against all Israeli Jews), I'll be willing to discuss Israel's violations in a rigorous manner. As for you, who would you want to visit? I've got a hunch already.

I said:
supporter of war mongering anti-gay Palestinian forces:

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"Cough cough. Israel is the occupier. "

Embarrassed? I'm a bit puzzled. Why would you try to divert attention from your proudly held convictions? You've provided ample evidence showing you to be a supporter of the war mongering anti-gay Palestinian forces.

QUITer of thinking abilities:
How many mixed towns are there in Israel where people are living side by side?

I said:
try these on for size: Haifa, Acho (Acre), Nazrat Illit, Jerusalem, Lod (Lyda), Ramle... there are others too. Pluck your head out of your Marxist rear and get a goddamn education already. But maybe it's too late for you to learn to perform research and find out such facts.

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"Israel is a deeply segregated nation. Again, at some point when Israel fulfills its obligations under international law, I’d be happy to visit your model integrated community. I hope I’m not disappointed. "

Lousy excuse for a retort, as usual by now. Anyway sonny, be advised you and your pro-reactionary, pro-racist, pro-murder cohorts are unwelcome in my neckadawoods and many other decent places. We don't want to see your sorry face from any distance and we don't care even the least about your standards for judging communities.

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"Are building permits given out without regard to religion?

Over the past three decades of occupation, Israel has employed in the West Bank a policy of planning, development, and building that severely restricts construction by Palestinians, while allocating broad expanses of land to establish and expand Jewish settlements. In this way, Israel has created a situation in which thousands of Palestinians are unable to obtain permits to build on their land, and are compelled to build without a permit because they have no other way to provide shelter for their families.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Planning_and_Building/Index.asp "

How convenient for you to neglect to specify you were alluding to the disputed territories. An anti-Zionist ploy. Anyway, the B'tselem account is half the picture at most, because many Palestinians have always bypassed the permit obtaining channels for reasons unrelated to the Israeli administration's policies at any given time.

QUITer of thinking abilities:
"Who does the right of return apply to?"

My reply:
Well, it sure as heaven shouldn't apply to the descendents of the original 1948 refugees, though I won't be surprised if you retort that of all refugees everywhere on the globe, those particular 1948 refugees are the only ethnic group to ever deserve the extension of refugee status to their offspring, notwithstanding int'l law. When, after all, did int'l law in such contexts deserve your respect except to use it as a sword against your Zionist grinches?

QUITer of thinking abilities:
to be continued. in the meantime, for your edification.

http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?article_class=3&no=275758&rel_no=1 "

In other words, you've been cornered so you rather avoid remarking on my answer and prefer to divert attention from your inability to deal with it with your trademarked irrelevant quoting of transparently biased commentary churned out by Genevieve Cora Fraser masquerading as a news item. Attempts to down out the signal with noise is one of the tricks often employed by rabid anti-Israel jokers.

But the "Estee Slaughter" demo was still kinda stupid.

Condom = "apartheid" wall?