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Related Categories: Palestine
RABBI MICHAEL LERNER: Liberal Zionist Apologist, Moral Equivocator, HYPOCRITE!
by re Rabbi Michael Lerner
Friday Feb 17th, 2006 11:39 AM
NO ONE has a _right_ to self-determination "in their *ancient* ancestral homeland", from 2,000 years ago, 1,000's of miles away, on another continent, in another inhabited land, at the expense of the people who actually _LIVE_ there! It's an arugment that is _literally_ worse than *medieval*!

— READ LERNER'S LIBERAL RACIST PABLUM FIRST! — :

Rabbi Michael Lerner will speak about his new book, "The Left Hand of God: Taking Back our Country from the Religious Right";
WHEN: Sunday, February 19th, at 1:00 p.m.;
WHERE: Grace Cathedral,
1100 California St. (at Taylor), San Francisco,
WHAT: Book Celebration panel:
Rabbi Michael Lerner – Editor, Tikkun magazine,
Rev. Alan Jones - Dean, Grace Cathedral,
Ms. Maha elGenaidi- President and CEO, Islamic Network Group,
Father Stephen Privett - President, University of San Francisco,
Dr. James McCray – Senior Minister, Jones United Methodist Church of San Francisco
.

Michael Lerner on Israel/Palestine
http://www.tikkun.org/core_vision


'PEACE, JUSTICE AND RECONCILIATION' FOR ISRAEL AND PALESTINE


We are committed to full and complete reconciliation between Israel and the Palestinian people within the context of social justice for the Palestinians and security for Israel. We call upon Israel to end the Occupation, to return settlers to the pre-1967 borders of Israel (providing them with decent housing), and to take major (though not total) responsibility for Palestinian refugees. We oppose Israel’s violations of Palestinian human rights and we insist that Israel adopt a strategy based on open-heartedness toward the Palestinians, repentance for past misdeeds, reparation, and genuine acknowledgement of the ways that some Israelis were oppressive, murderous, and oblivious to the legitimate needs of the Palestinian people. We call for an end to the teachings in Jewish and Israeli schools and media which demean or demonize the Palestinian people; instead we seek to replace those with teachings that emphasize the humanity and goodness of the Palestinian people, Arabs and Muslims. Although we affirm Israel as a Jewish state side by side with Palestine, we believe that all non-Jews in Israel, including most importantly Arab or Palestinian citizens of Israel, should have full civil rights in Israel and equal economic entitlements to any Israeli who has served in the army.

We call upon the Palestinian people to acknowledge the right of Jews to maintain their own homeland in the pre-1967 borders of the state of Israel, with Jewish control over the Jewish section of Jerusalem (including French Hill and Mt. Scopus and the Jewish Quarter of the Old City) and the Western Wall, and unimpeded access to the cemetery on the Mount of Olives. We call upon the Palestinian people to stop acts of terror against Israel and to listen and heed the growing number of Palestinian voices that are calling for a strategy of nonviolent civil disobedience We call upon Palestinians to end all teachings in their schools and media which demean or demonize the Jewish people or Israel and to replace those with teachings that emphasize the humanity and goodness of the Jewish people.

We recognize that some Palestinians will respond by pointing out the structural violence inherent in the presence of the Israeli Occupation and the settlements. We agree with these points, but still believe that the breakthrough necessary to free Palestinians from Occupation will only come when the Israeli people feel enough safety to contemplate arrangements based on trust. Just as Israelis must demonstrate that they see Palestinians as created in the image of God and deserving of full respect, so the Palestinians must demonstrate that they see Israelis as created in the image of God and are deserving of full respect.

Both sides need to recognize a need for repentance for past deeds that were hurtful and oppressive. Jews must understand why Palestinians were fearful that the more highly organized and politically sophisticated Zionist movement that began to emerge in the period 1920-1948 might lead to the disenfranchisement of Palestinians, and why Palestinians today feel that "the right to return" to their homes is no different from the right of return that was at the basis of Zionism.

Similarly, Palestinians need to acknowledge their own role in helping create the conflict by their armed resistance to Jewish immigration to Palestine in the years when Jews were being annihilated or when Jews were crawling out of the death camps and crematoria of Europe.

This is just a sample of the stories we must learn from each other so that we can build reconciliation of the heart, based on genuine compassion for each other. Political arrangements cannot be trusted until there is a serious commitment on both sides to compassionate listening to each other. Its only when both sides can tell the other side's story with compassion and conviction, and both sides recognize that in some important respects both sides are wrong and both sides are right that we can hope to move to a real reconciliation of the heart.

All the fancy agreements and all the political maneuvering is secondary to developing an open-heartedness and generosity in both peoples to the legitimate needs of the other. We believe an important step in that process is for both sides to learn how to tell the other other side's narrative in a convincing and compassionate way. This has been done in part in Rabbi Michael Lerner’s book Healing Israel/Palestine, and in the works of various Israeli and Palestinian thinkers who are able to transcend their own community’s demand for proving that their side is the “righteous victim” and the other side is “the evil oppressor.”

We call upon the United States and other world powers to intervene with all their influence and economic power both to stop the cycle of violence and to achieve the creation of a demilitarized Palestinian state in all of the West Bank and Gaza (minus the most minimal border alterations), an end to the Occupation, and an end to acts of terror. We will support efforts to convince the United States to condition aid to Israel on the end of the Occupation. We call upon the peoples of the world to come to Israel and Palestine and actively interpose ourselves between the warring sides to provide protection to civilians on both sides. And we call for all parties to adopt the nonviolent philosophies and strategies of Martin Luther King Jr. and Mahatma Gandhi.

Although we do not support any form of nationalism as an ultimate good, we understand why, in this historical moment, the Jewish people need a state of our own. With memories of the murder and genocide of our people still fresh and the perception that we would have been far less vulnerable had we had a state and an army—with the persistence of virulent anti-Semitism in the world today—the Jewish people cannot be asked to be the first to voluntarily eliminate the protections of the nation state. That’s why, at this point in time, the TIKKUN Community is supporting a two-state rather than a bi-national solution to the Israel-Palestinian crisis, even though some members of our community believe that such a bi-national state is the only way to achieve social justice for Palestinians.

After what Jews have been through, it is not reasonable to expect them to be the first to give up the protections of an armed state. On the other hand, we see nationalism as a perverting influence in Jewish life—and one that must be overcome. So we do hope Israel will become one of the first 20 percent of countries of the world to overcome the trappings of national chauvinism, militarism, and excessive focus on boundaries-—say, for example, after the United States, Russia, China, Japan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, India, Pakistan, England, France, Germany, Italy, Egypt, Poland, Argentina, Chile, Mexico, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Nigeria, Ethiopia, Uganda, and South Africa have pioneered that path by abolishing borders and accomplished full disarmament. Until then, the Jewish people have a right to their own state, which we hope will eventually move in the direction of confederation with Palestine and Jordan for economic and political cooperation.
by ANALYSIS OF PARAGRAPH 1:
Friday Feb 17th, 2006 11:41 AM
Okay, let's look at Lerner's namby-pamby evasive drivel (gee, this is going to take a lot of time to go through this liberal Zionist pablum):


Michael Lerner on Israel/Palestine:

"PEACE, JUSTICE AND RECONCILIATION FOR ISRAEL AND PALESTINE"
http://www.tikkun.org/core_vision


Lerner: "We call upon Israel to end the Occupation, to return settlers to the pre-1967 borders of Israel (providing them with decent housing)..."

PROVIDING THOSE RABIDLY RACISTS 'REDNECK' JEWISH RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALIST SETTLERS -- WHO'VE EVEN ATTACKED PALESTINIAN CHILDREN ON THEIR WAY TO SCHOOL (just google it) -- WITH "DECENT HOUSING"! WHAT THE FUCK IS *THAT* DEEP CONCERN OF LERNER'S ABOUT...!???

AND HOW ABOUT DESEGREGATING -- DE-APARTHEIDIZING ALL OF PALESTINE, INCLUDING THE ENTIRE STATE OF ISRAEL -- AND ABOLISHING ISRAEL'S RACIST ZIONIST APARTHEID IDEOLOGY-- AND POLITICAL,LEGAL & IDEOLOGICAL SELF-DESIGNATION -- AS "A JEWISH STATE"?

HOW ABOUT ONE UNIFIED STATE, IF THAT'S WHAT THE PALESTINIANS WANT. OR TWO STATES WITH NEITHER ONE DEFINED ON THE BASIS RACE, ETHNICITY, RELIGION OR, OTHERWISE, ANY FORM OF APARTHEID? -- WITH ABSOLUTELY EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL?

HOW ABOUT SENDING THOSE SETTLERS, THAT LERNER IS *SO* CONCERNED ABOUT -- WHOSE HOUSING WAS *HIGHLY* *HIGHLY* SUBSIDIZED IN THE FIRST PLACE BY THE STATE OF ISRAEL -- BACK TO THEIR SUBURBS IN AMERICA AND EUROPE!?


Lerner: "...and to take major (though not total) responsibility for Palestinian refugees."

Why not, necessarily, "total". The Zionists and Israel had "total" responsibility for turning them into a minority and refugees in their own land in the first place and dispossessing them or otherwise running them off -- mostly through (now admitted by "the New Historians" in Israel) direct armed force.


Lerner: "some Israelis were oppressive, murderous, and oblivious to the legitimate needs of the Palestinian people."

"SOME"??? What fuckin' Israeli doesn't know that the Palestinians were driven off of their land? -- WHICH CONTINUES TO THIS DAY! What Zionist Jewish immigrant didn't know then that Palestine was not, "a land without a people"! This remark sounds like the excuses of "the good Germans" of the Nazi era who claimed -- or didn't want to know -- what was happening to the Jews in Nazi Europe!


Lerner: "We call for an end to the teachings in Jewish and Israeli schools and media which demean or demonize the Palestinian people;"

WELL, I'M GLAD THAT LERNER AT LEAST ACKNOWLEGED THAT!


Lerner: "...Although we affirm Israel as a Jewish state side by side with Palestine..."

I KNOW THAT **HITLER** TRIED TO WIPE POLAND OFF THE MAP, BUT ISRAEL IS ***IN*** PALESTINE.

OTHERWISE, LERNER "AFFIRMS" THAT, NOW THAT WE ZIONISTS HAVE ABOUT 85-90% OF PALESTINE, LET'S CALL IT EVEN AND KEEP OUR "JEWISH STATE" -- EVEN THOUGH AT LEAST 20% OF THE PEOPLE LIVING WITHIN ISRAEL ITSELF ARE PALESTINIAN (which Israel refuses to call Palestinians -- it goes to well with, ahem, "PALESTINE").

AND ALMOST *HALF* OF "GREATER ISRAEL, OR WHAT THE DIEHARD RABID RACIST RELIGIOUS ZIONIST -- ESPECIALLY THE JEWISH SETTLERS -- CALL "ERETZ ISRAEL" IS PALESTINIANS -- NOT INCUDING THOSE PALESTINIANS WHO HAVE BEEN EXILED OUT OF PALESTINE ENTIRELY.

WHERE'S THE "HUMANITY AND GOODNESS" THERE!?

WHERE'S THE "JUSTICE" *THERE*, MICHAEL?

GEE, MICHAEL, WHAT DID BLACKS USED TO SAY DURING AMERICAN 'JIM CROW' SEGREGATION / APARTHEID?: "WHY *THANKS*, MISTAH JONNNES...! THAT'S MIGHTY *WHITE* OF YOU!"


Lerner: " we believe that all non-Jews in Israel, including most importantly Arab or Palestinian citizens of Israel, should have full civil rights in Israel and equal economic entitlements to any Israeli who has served in the army."

Now, how are Palestinians and other non-Jews supposed to have all these equal rights in a politically, ethnically, and legally self-defined "Jewish State"?

That's like saying that Blacks could have had full equal rights in "A Jim Crow State" or in "A White State" or in "An White Afrikaner State" -- or that Jews could have equal rights in "An Aryan Christian State".

It's also akin to saying that people can have equal rights in a "separate but equal" state.

IS LERNER *RENOUNCING* ZIONISM!???

(End of analysis of Paragraph 1. More analysis later. Shit, I don't have all night for this. As they say, a *LIE* -- even _a liberal Zionist's_ LIES -- can make it all around the world, before the *TRUTH* even has a chance to lace up its boots.)

AS ONE ANTI-ZIONIST JEW SAYS (TYPICAL OF OTHER JEWISH PRO-PALESTINIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ADVOCATES/ACTIVISTS) EVERYTIME HE HEARS LERNER: "WHERE'S A *BARF* BAG!?"
by Partial analysis of Paragraph 2
Friday Feb 17th, 2006 11:43 AM
OH, I JUST *COULDN'T RESIST RESPONDING TO THIS IN PARAGRAPH 2 OF LERNER'S LIBERAL ZIONIST DRIVEL!

Lerner: "We call upon the Palestinian people to acknowledge the right of Jews to maintain their own homeland..."

"the right of Jews to maintain their _*OWN*_ homeland..." [?????]

IN SOMEBODY _ELSE'S_ LAND???

NO ONE has a _right_ to self-determination "in their *ancient* ancestral homeland", from 2,000 years ago, 1,000's of miles away, on another continent, in another inhabited land, at the expense of the people who actually _LIVE_ there! It's an arugment that is _literally_ worse than *medieval*!

Look, there hasn't been a Jewish kingdom - for a period of time - in parts of Palestine for 2,000 years! And the ancient Hebrews weren't the first people there anyway (not that that even matters). What if ALL of us went back with our particular ethnic or religious group and imposed a displacing nation-state for ourselves where our _ANCIENT_ religious ancestors once had a small _ANCIENT_ kingdom for some period of time _2,000 years ago_ and where hundreds of thousands or millions of other people now live/d in modern times?

So, among other things, Israel *KEEPS* having a right to move in thousands of Jews, semi-Jews, and quasi-Jews, and *FICTIVE* Jews (remember the Russian 'Jews' who didn't even know they were Jewish and the 'Jewish' mountain Peruvian Indians Israel declared -- "ABRAHIM CADABRAHIM! POOF! YOU'RE A JEW!" -- and moved in to Israel? -- almost anything to offset the Palestinians, especially birthrate) every year at the expense of the people who live there in _the 20th & 21st century_, the Palestinians?

Only white-supremacy - Christian *or* Jewish - could find that to be a valid moral proposition applied to the 3rd World.


NOW *I'M* GETTING NAUSEOUS...!
by ANALYSIS OF PARAGRAPH 2
Friday Feb 17th, 2006 11:45 AM
Okay, let's look through more of Michael Lerner's namby-pamby evasive and RACIST drivel:


Lerner: "We call upon the Palestinian people to acknowledge the right of Jews to maintain their own homeland in the pre-1967 borders of the state of Israel,"

Well, there have been other posts about THE SHEER RIDICULOUSNESS of this ARROGANT and RACIST claim. NO ONE has a right to go claim "their ANCIENT homeland" in ANOTHER people's land. Palestine was about 95% NON-JEWISH before the Zionist influx of European Jews. And it certainly wasn't "a land without a people" as 750,000 to 1,000,000 Palestinians were driven off through various means -- but mostly throughWESTERN IMPERIALIST INTERVENTION (especially in the form of the UN) and through FORCE and JEWISH TERRORISM -- to bring about the state of Israel. The indigneous people who lived in Palestine had lived their (or their direct ancestors) CONTINUOUSLY for more than 2,000 years. Many Palestinian Arabs could trace their direct families living in their homes and on their land for 100 YEARS to CENTURIES.

Jews have NO RIGHT to, in particular, "a[n ideologically/religiously] Jewish state" in ANY part of Palestine -- just like whites/Afrikaners had to right to "a white Apartheid state" in any part of South Africa. And for Michael Lerner to say so represents the highest form of Western European arrogance: RACISM.

If Jews want to live in Palestine, they can live there as whites do in South Africa -- in a pluralistic multicultural society with absolutely equal rights for all regardless of race/ethnicity or religion. (Hopefully most of the hardcore racist Jews will leave -- but I hope they don't come here. Maybe Antarctica.)


Lerner: " with Jewish control over the Jewish section of Jerusalem (including French Hill and Mt. Scopus and the Jewish Quarter of the Old City) and the Western Wall, and unimpeded access to the cemetery on the Mount of Olives."

Well, first of all here, "the Jewish section" (including the Jewish suburbs) of Jerusalem keeps *GREATLY* expanding by leaps and bounds because Jews keep taking more and more Palestinian land. Otherwise, Palestinians -- UNLIKE JEWS -- are forbidden to expand their homes (not so much as a room addition) for, perhaps, a growing family. Palestinians certainly are forbidden to buy more land -- UNLIKE JEWS. This situation represents parts of THE JEWISH 'JIM CROW' / APARTHEID LAWS in Israel/Palestine.

There are also other RACIAL LAWS -- like forms of ANTI-MISCEGENATION LAWS (hindrance restrictions on marriages between Jews and Palestinians, especially in terms of where they can live and who can get citizenship) in Israel that amount, in total, to ISRAEL'S 'NUREMBURG LAWS'.


Lerner: "We call upon the Palestinian people to stop acts of terror against Israel and to listen and heed the growing number of Palestinian voices that are calling for a strategy of nonviolent civil disobedience"

First of all here, political ZIONISM has been the OVERWHELMING act of terror in Palestine: the removal of the Palestinian people through armed force -- VIOLENCE -- including direct massacres, the obliteration of over 400 Palestinian towns and villages, and the most TERRORISTIC Zionist methods by ANY definition of the word TERRORISM, just by the time that Israel declared itself a state.

But, the COLONIALISTS always want the indigenous/native people to only use the methods of 'resistance' that the *COLONIALISTS* prescribe -- and that is, typically, of course, "nonviolent". Well, the Zionists did not invade nonviolently; the Palestinians have no oblivation to resist nonviolently. Besides, every int'l law and moral principle gives an invaded invaded innocent people the right to whatever form of resistance they choose, including armed defense.


Lerner: "We call upon Palestinians to end all teachings in their schools and media which demean or demonize the Jewish people or Israel and to replace those with teachings that emphasize the humanity and goodness of the Jewish people."

First of all here, Israel -- unlike the Zionsts, including Michael Lerner would want even all Jews to believe, let alone the rest of us -- does NOT represent, nor is the equivalent to all the Jewish people or Judaism. In fact, I would say that to equate the human rights crimes of Zionism to all of the Jewish people or Judaism is itself ANTI-SEMITIC -- although clearly not enough Jews around the world, who may not identify with or want anything to do with Zionism are not doing enough -- JUST LIKE "the good Germans" and the early Nazis and then growing Nazi anti-Semitism -- to stand up and publicly oppose it -- under far greater freedom and far less danger than "the good Germans" had.

Second, what A SICKENING *INSULT* that Michael Lerner would slap in the face of the Palestinians! Why should the Palestinians embrace "the humanity and goodness" of the people who have been aggressively dispossessing them (the Palestinians) and/or brutally colonizing Palestine for over 65 years. The Palestinians will embrace "the humanity and goodness" of their invaders when their invaders start BEHAVING with "humanity and goodness".

But gee, the Palestinians hardly need to learn to demean or demonize Israeli/Zionist Jews in Palestinian schools! And that's an apochryphal canard -- a fabricated and false urban legend -- spread by Israeli/Zionist Jews anyway. Israeli/Zionist Jews themselves have been directly doing a pretty good job of teaching Palestinians how to demean and demonize Israelis/Zionists through over 65 years of Jewish terrorist groups, militia, or ISRAELI STATE TERRORISM/VIOLENCE.

NO LESS THAN GANDHI CALLED ZIONISM "A CRIME *AGAINST* HUMANITY".

IT'S LIKE THE ARAB GUY IN THE DOCUMENTARY FILM "CONTROL ROOM" SAID, "THE WEST NOT ONLY WANTS TO INVADE US, THEY WANT US TO *LIKE* IT [AND THEM] TOO!"
by ANALYSIS OF LAST PARAGRAPH
Friday Feb 17th, 2006 11:47 AM
ANALYSIS OF LAST SUMMARY PARAGRAPH OF MICHAEL LERNER'S PABLUM SCREED — 07 FEB 2006 POST:


I'm _JUMPING AHEAD_ (I couldn't take all that racist drivel in between) to the last paragraph of Michael Lerner's pablum, the only post on 07 Feb 06 below -- because there really is a LOT of capped off, summarizing HYPOCRITICAL DRIVEL by this glib, 'New Age' liberal moral slimeball HUCKSTER AND CHARLATAN Michael Lerner there. But because white Westerners are so even subconsciously racistly mentally conditioned against non-Europeans, that last paragraph -- as well as all the other paragraphs in his spurious, specious and duplicitous PR "message" for "Peace, Justice and Reconciliation" -- might actually sound, well, "reasonable".


Lerner: "After what Jews have been through, it is not reasonable to expect them to be the first to give up the protections of an armed state." "

Well, it certainly *IS* "reasonable" for Israeli Jews to give up -- like South Africa at last -- AN APARTHEID COLONIAL STATE, especially one BASED ON A LIE that Palesine was "A LAND WITHOUT A PEOPLE"!

And, again, the state of Israel is *NOT* the equivalent of all Jews in the world or in modern history! It's *ANTI-SEMITIC* to directly associate the mass land theft, the conspiracy to mass dispossess others, and the most relentless at least 65-years human rights crimes with ALL Jews. Many Jews -- though not nearly enough -- including holocaust survivors and former anti-Nazi resistance fighters -- MORALLY **REJECT** THE ZIONIST ISRAELI APARTHEID STATE. They morally reject an ideologically, politically and legalized "Jewish state" based in an inhabited land where the OVERWHELMING population was non-Jewish and where even today almost HALF the population is Palestinian -- and where inside the borders of Israel itself *20%* of the population is non-Jewish (Palestinian Muslims, Christians, other religions, and secular). By comparison about 12% of the overall American population is Black.


Lerner: "On the other hand, we see nationalism as a perverting influence in Jewish life—and one that must be overcome."

Moral HYPOCRITICAL perverts is right! After all they go on and on about the Jewish Holocaust, what the Nazis did, and how the average Nazi-era German turned their heads away. Pro-Israel/Zionist Jews are HISTORY'S BIGGEST HYPOCRITES!!


Lerner: "So we do hope Israel will become one of the first 20 percent of countries of the world to overcome the trappings of national chauvinism, militarism, and excessive focus on boundaries-—say, for example, after the United States, Russia, China, Japan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, India, Pakistan, England, France, Germany, Italy, Egypt, Poland, Argentina, Chile, Mexico, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Nigeria, Ethiopia, Uganda, and South Africa have pioneered that path by abolishing borders and accomplished full disarmament."

Maybe we all should have waited until the world had "overcome the trappings of national chauvinism", "abolishing borders and accomplished full disarmament", before we ended SLAVERY in the U.S., before we ended JIM CROW in the U.S., before we granted women THE RIGHT TO VOTE and EQUALITY UNDER THE LAW, before we ended the GENOCIDAL Vietman War, before we ended the GENOCIDAL U.S. proxy terrorist Contra war in Nicaragua, before we got South Africa to end APARTHEID, and before we ended NAZISM, "THE *ARYAN* STATE", and the Jewish HOLOCAUST!

Michael Lerner's 'until we get to Never Never Land' -- OH, IT'S 'NEVER NEVER' EVEN FOR LIBERAL RACIST, GROSSLY HYPOCRITICAL ZIONIST APOLOGISTS LIKE LERNER ALRIGHT -- intellectually sickening moral excuse is morally nauseating!


Lerner: "Until then, the Jewish people have a right to their own state,..."

_NO ONE_ HAS — AND _NO_ AMOUNT OF SUFFERING GIVES ANYONE — A MORAL RIGHT TO A RACIALLY AND IDEOLOGICALLY SELF-DEFINED AND THUS INHERENTLY *RACIST* NATION-STATE — ESPECIALLY IN THE MODERN WORLD.

NO WONDER MICHAEL LERNER — WITH HIS NEW AGE LIBERAL JEWISH CHAUVINIST RACISM — MAKES MANY ANTI-ZIONIST JEWS **BARF**!!
by SUMMARY ANALYSIS OF LIBERAL RACIST LERNER
Friday Feb 17th, 2006 11:49 AM
FINAL ANALYSIS OF MICHAEL LERNER'S RACIST PABLUM:


Lerner: "This has been done in part in Rabbi Michael Lerner’s book Healing Israel/Palestine, and in the works of various Israeli and Palestinian thinkers who are able to transcend their own community’s demand for proving that their side is the “righteous victim” and the other side is “the evil oppressor.” ...Both sides need to recognize a need for repentance for past deeds that were hurtful and oppressive."

But Zionist Jews *ARE* "the evil oppressor[colonialist invaders]" in Palestine-Israel.

Maybe the Jews of Nazi Germany should have "transcend[ed] their own community’s demand for proving that their side is the “righteous victim” and the other side is “the evil oppressor.” Maybe Jews "need[/ed] to recognize a need for repentance for past deeds that were hurtful and oppressive" to the *Nazis*!

After all, Hitler, with his people/country wretchedly oppressed by the indeed UNJUST Treaty of Versailles, just wanted to gather all the ethnic German diaspora, dispersed over Eastern Central Europe, into one exclusivist German state: "An Aryan Christian State".


Lerner: "Jews must understand ... why Palestinians today feel that "the right to return" to their homes is no different from the right of return that was at the basis of Zionism."

A "Right of Return" based on "Zionism"!? Political Zionism, which was conceived around the +/-1890's (around the time that the U.S. was finishing up its extermination of the Native Americans), started *LONG* before Nazi Germany. Now, during the Armenian genocide in Turkey, many Armenians refugees fled to Palestine -- and had an Armenian quarter in Jerusalem -- but they didn't go there to pushed the Palestinian Arabs off the land, take the place over, and set up a racially exclusive "Armenian State"!

What Michael Lerner does in all his PSEUDO-LIBERAL ZIONIST PABLUM is to repeatedly try to make morally equivalent the OPPRESSED and the OPPRESSOR, the Zionist invaders and the indigenous/native Palestinians.
by heads up on Michael Lerner
Friday Feb 17th, 2006 11:50 AM
HEADS UP ON MICHAEL LERNER:


Not many, if any, potential audience members will probably even get a chance to ask Lerner about any of the deeper moral issues in this thread.

The ole windbag will probably employ his standard practice (I've seen him in action before):

He will talk FOREVER in his new age spiritualism mumbo-jumbo. He will thus wear his audience down -- as people get worn out and leave in a series of ones, twos, and fews, if not in groups -- to the last relatively few holdouts.

Then there will only -- calculatedly -- be time left (maybe only 15 minutes) for a few questions, although many questioners are likely to be lined up at the Q/comment-&-A microphone(s).

If there is a microphone, he will let long-winded fluff-ball or fawning questioners (any that don't seem to be an intellectual threat) go on forever, to eat up time.

Or, more probably, those many questions/comments might very well only be taken on *small* index cards -- which essentially limits all remarks to 30 seconds, this avoids anyone being able to meaningfully frame or contextualize their question/comment -- and even then any semblance of truly morally challenging questions will be sifted out.

But, the moderator may insist, "We'll only take questons -- no comments," thus precluding any meaningful critique. (You can always end your public comment with, "What do you think about that?")

Lerner will give long-winded (10-15, maybe even 20, minute) more mumbo-jumbo answers (then the remaining audience will be lucky if there's time for 2 or 3 questions), saying substantively NOTHING (unless you like to hear new age spiritual mumbo-jumbo), to prodigiously eat up more time.

This will also cause more audience members, increasingly, by Lerner's calculated strategy, worn out, to leave. You'll be lucky if 10-15% of the audience remains by the time Lerner finishes (he will have purposedly bored the rest of them nearly comotose): this is also a calculated tactic to make sure that as few as people as possible get to hear any truly challenging question or comment to Lerner. Any morally and intellectually serious person might very well leave the room asking, "I gave up my evening for this?"

You see, Lerner is really just promoting HIMSELF -- oh, and his magazine -- he's not promoting any real substantive presentation or real dialogue or deeper moral inquiry. And, of course, he's there to be a liberal guilt-self-relieving Zionist apologist for Israel -- his role, otherwise, is a 5th column Zionist in the liberal or progressive movement -- and to make a moral _equivalency(!!)_ between the invader (Zionist Jewish influx) and the invaded (the indigenous Palestinians), between the colonizers and the colonized.

Now, maybe Lerner will have seen this thread and modify his game plan, somewhat -- or, maybe not.
He was banned because ANSWER doesn't want people who support Israel even in the liberal smarmy way Lerner does. I beleive thaat Lerner should n ot have bene banned from a rally agaisnt the U.S. invazsion of IRAQ. His Smarminess represents a constituency that should be at rallies against the invasion and occupation of Iraq.
by The Truth
(onlineoffersonly [at] yahoo.com) Saturday Feb 18th, 2006 10:14 AM
I don't know Rabbi Lerner.

I do know that Isreal (or Palestine) has been occupied and controlled by hundreds of outside regimes in the history of mankind.

I also know that in the mid 1900s (re: 1945) the Palestinians were the people living there.

I also know that today, the State of Isreal controls the area and is supported by the US.

Focusing on who took whose land is really very silly, as you can pick ten different points in history and you would find ten different claims to the land. Really, we don't see Italian men fly to Isreal strap bombs to their bodies and claim to be liberators of what used to be a Roman territory.

The real question should be how can the people and governments in the area get along under the current situation.
by old crowd.....
Saturday Feb 18th, 2006 10:31 AM

I think it's a tragedy that American society has let its critical and analytical skills be dumbed down to such an extent by MTV culture standards that Bush could pull that sort of move that's now assuming ever increasing proportions of a semi-Vietnam quagmire, at least.

In this and every other matter. I am really growing disenchanted with life in America. The shallowness, materialism and apathy of this culture is increasing exponentially.

Our numbers are growing on Indybay, now too. We've got a new contributor, Charasmatic Megafauna, who has spent a bit of time in Israel, and a few other reasonable voices. Becky Johnson hasn't been around in a while. Pity.

Pity though that Carlos and PJ quit.

Carlos was a real asset. He was part of our local Action group. ("inaction" group?) He is doing something I don't understand with plankton in the Sea of Cortez. He still e-mails me occassionally. PJ dropped off the face of the earth- maybe he couldn't figure out how to undo the auto-blocking. I don't recall "idiots for palestine"- maybe that was before my time. Gehrig, bless him, is still a potent force, as is Yid.

They seemed also to have forgotten that certain people react in a, well, untoward way when their voices are silenced. Maybe they've since learned.

Apparently they have. It was a frustrating, ill-begotten experiment and contrary to all the IMC principles. At the height of the Indy censorship experiement, they were blocking Web cafes and libraries.

>>Truth be told, al-Masakin is being forged big time.

>Thats what Tw said. Coming from him, I assumed it was a lie. But who is doing it? Not one of us, I hope?

I can't rule out him being right on that count too,

I really hate when he's right. He does tend to gloat. Fortunately, it doesn't happen often.

though I can only hope the genuine al-Masakin will discard his inflammatory style if he intends to keep posting. I wouldn't do such false-flag ops though as it'd feel too silly to me. On Purim, maybe. But hardly on a consistent daily basis.

Oh- we should really plan something special for Purim, shouldn't we? Thats a great idea.

Now I may be wrong about something else, but I speculate the editors utilize censorship of non-a. Zionist posts alternately, i.e. whenever damaged goods like Toady, TW and JA are on the swing, seems like they receive much more editorial protection that tries to shield them from posters challenging their talking points koolaids. When they scuttle back away from the limelight, the editors promptly ratchet down the censorship.

I think you may be right about that. Hiding comments seems more erratic than in the past. But it makes "give and take" dialog more possible.

Shabbat Shalom, chaver shel'li.
by gehrig
Saturday Feb 18th, 2006 1:08 PM
" Even though the ranks of anti-Zionists may be diminishing in the Bay Area "

Actually, they are all over the country. The latest Gallup poll on what Americans think about Israel and the Palestinians has Israel's support at the highest it's been in a decade, and Palestinian support at the lowest it's been in a decade. Seems most Americans didn't sweep the exit from Gaza down the memory hole the way the anti-Zionists do here. Among those who don't say "neither, both, dunno," support for Israel is four times the level of support for Palestinians.

@%<
LIES

Brazen, sick, murderous lies, whether mouthed with intent to decieve, or by one of the weak deluded minds taken in.
by Well, you lie
Monday Feb 20th, 2006 5:29 AM
You've got so many more negative qualities going for you. Who are you to even pretend you can fake civil discourse?

by TW
Tuesday Feb 21st, 2006 3:24 AM
...is like a child-molesters idea of "romance"

When I claim Carlos is going to suicide-bomb Hugo Chavez, or that CT eats dead Palestinians' brains out of their heads in public and lives in a West Bank settlement's booby-hatch (both of which could well be true...), I'm not being deceitful. I don't really expect anyone to believe that stuff. It's called 'humor.' Ha. Ha.

I also make mistakes. When I said Arutz Sheva is a state-run Israeli news service, I thought it was because it palms itself off as such on its own website! Oh yeah it does. They directly and deliberately imply this with the terms "Israel National News," "Israel National TV," and "Israel National Radio." Of course, now I discover this is just another LIE.

In any case, my own repetition of that lie was not consciously deceitful

Aside from these two things -- honest mistakes and defamatory jokes -- I don't utter untruths here.

By all means, SHOW ME WHERE I HAVE!! Let's rock'n'roll!

The zios will use the same defense, in that they don't recognize their own lies as such, but this is a function of how incredibly deluded they are. Also they definitely consciously lie. Tia tacitly admitted it ("Well, *you* lie [so whatsa big deal?]"). They HAVE TO lie and resort to any other cheap tactic available! They're crazy desperate.

Nessie has 'em dead to rights on this
by TW
Tuesday Feb 21st, 2006 3:48 AM
Uh-huh, when Moslems have a bad reaction to the Western ideal of freedom of expression, the zionists are all over it like flies on shit saying "see how fuckin crazy they all are!!???!?!?!??!?! See??!!?! See??!?!?! THEY'RE SUB-HUMAN I'M TELLIN YA!!!!!!"

But then when **ZIOS** have a bad reaction to the Western ideal of freedom of expression, whoever's offended them needs to thrown in prison and silenced for the rest of their lives.

When Moslems react with violence for this reason, they're "psychotic terrorists."

When **ZIOS**do so -- not mere rioting mind you, but actual terrorist plots -- it becomes just another of their buried episodes of history

Why are they so terrified of Zundel and Irving, anyway? If their premise really is bullshit, that'll come out in the wash. Do they work so desperately to suppress that discussion because they know it's NOT bullshit? That's the message they're really putting out.
by and still wrong
Tuesday Feb 21st, 2006 4:26 AM
..is like a child-molesters idea of "romance"

You go for the most offensive analogies, don't you? Oh. Excuse me....for you, thats "humor"?

Aside from these two things -- honest mistakes and defamatory jokes -- I don't utter untruths here.

You utter whatever truth, untruth, forgery and deceit springs into your mind at any moment. You utter whatever half thought out insult, analogy, or theory worms its why into your grey matter without giving truth a moments consideration.

By all means, SHOW ME WHERE I HAVE!! Let's rock'n'roll!
Shall we all begin collecting urls?

The zios will use the same defense, in that they don't recognize their own lies as such, but this is a function of how incredibly deluded they are. Also they definitely consciously lie. Tia tacitly admitted it ("Well, *you* lie [so whatsa big deal?]").

By all means, SHOW ME WHERE I HAVE. I don't lie. If I post something that I find out later is untrue, I retract it myself.


They HAVE TO lie and resort to any other cheap tactic available! They're crazy desperate.

Perhaps crazy. Likely crazy. Never deperate. Because we are right.


Uh-huh, when Moslems have a bad reaction to the Western ideal of freedom of expression, the zionists are all over it like flies on shit saying "see how fuckin crazy they all are!!???!?!?!??!?! See??!!?! See??!?!?! THEY'RE SUB-HUMAN I'M TELLIN YA!!!!!!"

Where did any of the posters on this site say this?

But then when **ZIOS** have a bad reaction to the Western ideal of freedom of expression, whoever's offended them needs to thrown in prison and silenced for the rest of their lives.

Look at the difference. We use the legitimate system and the rule of law to publicize our points. We demonstate PEACEFULLY. When we demanded answers to the Sabra and Shatilia, 300,000 of us took to the streets, and we got our answers.

When Moslems react with violence for this reason, they're "psychotic terrorists."

You said it, we didn't.

When **ZIOS**do so -- not mere rioting mind you, but actual terrorist plots -- it becomes just another of their buried episodes of history

Ah- resorting back to the classic anti-semitism, are we? If one Jew is dishonest, all Jews are. If one Jew is cheap, they all are. If one Jew does something wrong, its indicative of a genetic weakness in the lot of them.

Why are they so terrified of Zundel and Irving, anyway? If their premise really is bullshit, that'll come out in the wash.

And it did.

by gehrig
Tuesday Feb 21st, 2006 9:34 AM
TW, running interference for Holocaust deniers: "If their premise really is bullshit, that'll come out in the wash."

It's already come out in the wash, half a century ago. But the Holocaust deniers have managed to persuade sloppy thinkers (especially the antisemitic ones like you) that it hasn't, that maybe it could all be A ZI-I-I-I-IONIST JEW PLOT after all. No sensible person would fall for it, but there you are ready to give it a go.

That is, the only "threat" that Irving and Zundel represent is that they enable antisemites like you to display their antisemitism out in the open.

@%<
by TW
Tuesday Feb 21st, 2006 11:59 AM
"You go for the most offensive analogies, don't you?"

Only when they're completely appropriate and deserved

"By all means, SHOW ME WHERE I HAVE. I don't lie."

Oh, sure thing, Tia-baby, I sure will...

...but I ASKED YOU FIRST.

"Where did any of the posters on this site say this?"

Well, for example when a lurking zionist anony-rat posted this little gem

http://www.indybay.org/news/2006/02/1801990_comment.php#1801996

and you all ran around with your heads on fire pretending it didn't happen, marember?

"Look at the difference."

Oh fuck you 'look at the difference!' Do you believe the principle or don't you? There's no 'maybe' answer to this. No, you clearly don't. So then don't go staking out your little 'moral high-ground' when a free-expression case "just happens" to work in your interest

ya'll always wanna play it both ways...

"Ah- resorting back to the classic anti-semitism, are we?"

myuh-huh, out come the double-standards again. When Jews blow people up, beat them with lead pipes, pour acid on them, etc, etc, to intimidate an entire movement into silence for reasons of clear political interest to Jews as a whole, DON'T YOU DARE GO GENERALIZING THAT SHIT!!!! But let a lone Palestinian nut do anything of the sort, and OOOOOOH BABY!! Collective Punishment, here we come!! "You just can't reason or negotiate with this Palestinian trash -- you've seen what THEY'RE like!"

There you go playing it both ways again

"And it did [come out in the wash]."

No, you're evading the point ... AGAIN. You've pushed to criminalize this everywhere, including here, in your obvious desperation to silence such people. If it's already "out in the wash," why do you keep pushing to silence anyone NEW who says it?

http://www.indybay.org/news/2006/02/1803695.php

What are you so afraid of?
by quicksilver wit....
Tuesday Feb 21st, 2006 1:16 PM
"By all means, SHOW ME WHERE I HAVE. I don't lie."

Oh, sure thing, Tia-baby, I sure will...

...but I ASKED YOU FIRST.

I need another hobby? Gehrig, Yid, anyone else...I need some help here. Please submit your favorite TW lie...Prizes will be given.

"Where did any of the posters on this site say this?"

Well, for example when a lurking zionist anony-rat posted this little gem

http://www.indybay.org/news/2006/02/1801990_comment.php#1801996

This isn't gloating. This is an article by a French intellectual. Gloating is Toady's brocolli photoshop pieces and stir fry jokes. Nothing here with your level of hyperpole " crazy and subhuman" .

and you all ran around with your heads on fire pretending it didn't happen, marember?

This is not of the level you are claiming.

"Look at the difference."

Oh fuck you 'look at the difference!' Do you believe the principle or don't you? There's no 'maybe' answer to this. No, you clearly don't. So then don't go staking out your little 'moral high-ground' when a free-expression case "just happens" to work in your interest

There is a big difference and you know it. This is just the best you could come up with.

ya'll always wanna play it both ways...

"Ah- resorting back to the classic anti-semitism, are we?"

myuh-huh, out come the double-standards again. When Jews blow people up, beat them with lead pipes, pour acid on them, etc, etc, to intimidate an entire movement into silence for reasons of clear political interest to Jews as a whole, DON'T YOU DARE GO GENERALIZING THAT SHIT!!!! But let a lone Palestinian nut do anything of the sort, and OOOOOOH BABY!! Collective Punishment, here we come!! "You just can't reason or negotiate with this Palestinian trash -- you've seen what THEY'RE like!"

Alas, if it were only a handful of extremist nuts, we would not be where we are today. If there was a government that was actively working owards peace, teaching tolerance to its children, curtailing the violence on its own, arresting the "extremist nuts"- we'd be on our way towards peace.

The JDL, Kach, and the like are marginalized and condemned by the entire Jewish community. There was no double standard. If it happened today, I'd condemn it as well.

There you go playing it both ways again

"And it did [come out in the wash]."

No, you're evading the point ... AGAIN. You've pushed to criminalize this everywhere, including here, in your obvious desperation to silence such people. If it's already "out in the wash," why do you keep pushing to silence anyone NEW who says it?

http://www.indybay.org/news/2006/02/1803695.php

What are you so afraid of?

This isn't me. I actually am very uncomfortable with the idea of banning any kind of speech. And that includes Holocaust denial. Its why I took being auto-blocked so personally. Yes, it sounds like a high school civics platitude.... but I think open debate and discourse are the foundation of a free society. Without it we are lost. So, again, no, I did not write that. I believe when things are written or spoken that are way off base, they should be responded to. We didn't try to silence Pappe, or Finkelstein or Weir when they came to town. We just made sure that anyone who was listening knew there was a different side to the story that they weren't hearing.
by TW
Tuesday Feb 21st, 2006 1:55 PM
Now we're back to you wasting my time and attention again, and after I said I wouldn't let you do that. Shame on me.

Far and away your favorite mode of lying is the lie of omission. Many times I have pinned you to the wall with an assertion you can't evade or deny, so what you do? *Poof!* The whole matter just disappears into thin air. The next time you post, your amnesia is perfect. It's a clear symptom of just how incredibly impenetrably deep your denial is.

It's very clear that Jewish political zealots want to stifle any skeptical discussion of the Nazi holocaust. This is a real initiative that should be acknowledged. Oh but "that's not you" so now it's a moot point and you don't have to touch it.

I can reveal any number of damaging facts about zionist political activities and point to multiple proven specific examples to document my case. This is enough to establish a point as fact in most arguments. Oh, but not with you assholes and your "Great Victim" act that you've polished to such gleaming perfection! Now I'm "generalizing" and "being a bigot" to the poor ever-suffering down-trodden Jew!

Basically, it doesn't matter what I bring up or how well I substantiate it, you **ALWAYS** have some sleazy back door lined up to jump through.

Dershowitz is the Grand Master of this bullshit. That's why the bunch of you sleazoids worship the ground he walks on.

Fuck you and your stupid merry-go-round game, Tia. Oh, I'm not going away, don't throw a party yet. As for continuing to be your monkey in this thread, though, I'm through. You have fun.
by Alan Dershowitz
Tuesday Feb 21st, 2006 2:21 PM
"I will not be silenced nor intimidated. The shouters know that. Their goal is to silence and intimidate others, who do not get police protection and do not have access to the media. Let the debate about Israel and the Palestinians continue unabated. Let all views be heard. The shouters ...wanted no views but their own to be seen and heard. They succeeded that day ..., as they have on some university campuses, but the marketplace of ideas is far too vibrant to be shut down by a bunch of self-righteous thugs shouting ugly and bigoted epithets."

Thank you, Mr. Dershowitz. May you continue to be an inspiration.
by bites the dust
Tuesday Feb 21st, 2006 10:03 PM
Facinating that none of the regular "anti-idiotarian" zionist posters feel that Holocaust denial should be a crime, even through Tink REALLY REALLY wants us to say that, so he can rant about us being earth raping zio-nazi neo-con hypocritics.

Oh, we are just so unpredictable....our resident anti-semite is stunned speechless.

Why can't we have a party?
by Palestinian populace
Tuesday Feb 21st, 2006 11:08 PM
interesting note: the majority of Palestinians support suicicde bombing


Methodology
A random sample of 1,200 people over the age of 18 was interviewed face-to-face
throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip between 8th and 12th of February
2006.

The margin of error is 3 percent, with a confidence level of 95.

Results:
Q1. In General, What is the extent of your optimism towards the Palestinian
Future? Would you say you are optimistic, somewhat optimistic, or
pessimistic?
Optimistic 41.2 Somewhat Optimistic 38.6
Pessimistic 19.6 No answer 0.6

Q2. To what extent would you say the elections process was free and fair?
Fair 77.6 Somewhat fair 16.4
Wasn't fair 4.1 No answer 1.9

Q3. Did the elections results meet your expectations?
Met my expectations 20.3 Somewhat met my expectations 29.3
Did not meet my expectations 49.0 No answer 1.4

Q4. Did you expect Hamas overwhelming majority's in the PLC's elections?
Total Yes 24.6 No 73.9 No answer 1.5
Gaza:Yes 34.5 No 63.9 No answer 1.6

Q5. Given the elections results, to what extent you say that the elected
members
represent your point of view?
Represent my point of view 29.1
Represent my point of view to a certain extent 38.9
Do not represent my point of view 29.6 No answer 2.4

Q6. Are you optimistic about the performance of the elected council in the
future?
Very Optimistic 30.9 Somewhat Optimistic 47.0
Pessimistic 21.0 No answer 1.1

Q7. Do you think that the elected council members will comply with their
elections programs and platforms?
Will comply 32.2 Will comply to a certain extent 45.7
Will not comply 20.3 No answer 1.8

Q 8. In general, how do you evaluate the performance of the previous PLC?
Very good 2.0 Good 24.6
Bad 39.1 Very bad 32.7 No answer 1.6 1

Q 9. What do you expect with regards to the performance of the next PLC?
Very good 25.8 Good 51.5
Bad 14.3 Very bad 2.3
No answer 6.1

Q 10. What is the government structure you hope to see after the PLC
elections?
National Coalition 58.1 Hamas Government 24.1 Technocrat Government 13.8
No answer 4.0 3

Q11. The PLO and the PA signed an agreement with Israel, (Oslo Agreement) do
you think that the new government headed by Hamas should go on with this
agreement?
Hamas has to go on with this agreement 51.7
Hamas doesn't have to go with this agreement 42.0
No answer 6.3

Q12. The PA is committed to the option of political negotiations with
Israel. Do
you believe that the new government headed by Hamas has to continue with the
political negotiations, stop the political negotiations and should adopt
other
options?
To continue with the political negotiations 66.3
Stop the political negotiations 29.6
No answer 4.1

Q13. Do you see a contradiction between Hamas responsibility over the
Palestinian government and its role in resisting Israel?
I see a contradiction 44.6
I don't see a contradiction 52.3
No answer 3.1

Q14. How concerned are you from Hamas enforcing social restrictions on the
Palestinians?
Very worried 8.3 Somewhat worried 21.3
Somewhat not worried 29.3 Not worried at all 40.4
No answer 0.7

Q15. Some believe that the negotiations are the best path to achieve our
national
goals, whereas others believe that the armed struggle is the best way to do
so.
Which option is the closest to your opinion?
Through Negotiations 38.8
Through armed struggle 17.9
Through negotiations and armed struggle 40.3
Don't know 2.3 No answer 0.7

Q 16. Under the current conditions, some believe that the peace process is
dead
and there is no chance of resuming the negotiations, while others see that
the
peace process is passing through difficult times with unclear future, and a
third
group believes that the peace process is still alive and there is a
possibility of
resuming negotiations.
19.4 The peace process is dead and there is no chance of resuming the
negotiations
52.1 The peace process is passing through difficult times with an unclear
future
25.1 The peace process is still alive and there is a possibility of resuming
negotiations
00.8 Others 2.6 Don't know \ no answer

Q17. Some believe that a two-state formula is the favored solution for the
Israeli-
Palestinian conflict, while others believe that historic Palestine cannot be
divided and thus the favored solution is a bi-national state on all of
Palestine
where Palestinians and Israelis enjoy equal representation and rights. Which
of
these solutions do you prefer?
Two-state solution: an Israeli and a Palestinian 57.9
Bi-national state on all of historic Palestine 22.3
One Palestinian state * 10.5
Islamic state * 2.7
No solution 3.9
Don't know 1.6
No answer 1.1
*These answers were not included as part of the options read to the
interviewee

Q18. How do you feel towards suicide bombing operations against Israeli
civilians? Do you support them, or oppose them?
Strongly support 22.4 Somewhat support 33.8
Somewhat oppose 24.3 Strongly oppose 16.4
No answer 3.1

Q19. Do you support the resumption of the military operations against
Israeli
targets as a suitable response within the current political conditions, or
do you
oppose them and find them harmful to Palestinians national interests?
43.8 Suitable response within the current political conditions
51.5 I oppose them and find them harmful to Palestinian national interests
00.3 Others
02.8 Don't know
01.6 No answer

Q20. Hamas has executed violent operations against Israeli targets inside
Israel
and in the West Bank and Gaza strip against civilians and against military
troops, now and after Hamas victory in the PLC elections, do you believe
that
Hamas should continue with such operations or that it should halt them?
39.1 Hamas has to continue with its operations
51.7 Hamas has to stop its operations
0 9.2 No answer

Q21. Which Palestinian political or religious faction do you trust most? *
Hamas 38.7 3 Fateh 30.6 PFLP 3.9 islamic Jihad 2.4
DFLP 1.0 PPP 0.6 Fida 0.4 Al Aqsa Brigades 0.2
Other Islamic Factions 1.6 Others 1.8
I don't trust any Faction 15.
No answer 3.7
* This question was an open ended one
Q24. If you voted for Hamas , why so?*
18.8 Religious Factors
43.0 Hope to end the Corruption
10.7 Hope to live in better living conditions
10.7 For their political agenda 12.5 11.0
07.5 To stop Fateh's control over the government
02.1 Others
06.1 No answer
*This question was asked who said that they voted for Hamas

Q25. Regardless of whom you voted for, why do you think most People voted
for
them?
13.3 Religious Factors
44.0 Hope to end the Corruption
18.9 Hope to live in a better living conditions
06.1 For their political agenda
13.5 To stop Fateh's control over the government
02.7 Others
01.5 No answer

by Israeli Jewish Populace
Tuesday Jan 6th, 2009 3:38 PM
What is the % of Israeli Jews, and other Zionist Jews around the world, who believe that Israel (instead of being a semi-theocratic, Jewish-supremacist state) should be a truly democratic secular country with absolutely equal national, legal, civil and citizenship rights for ALL people regardless of race, ethnicity, religion, and whether your mother happened to be Jewish?: something even Zionist Jews demand in the U.S. and the rest of the (especially, Western) world.
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