Holy Land or Living Hell? Ecocide in Palestine

Thanks Indybay

LOL!!! What did the Arabs do with the land? Ever wonder why there is desert fro, Mauritania to Iraq? Look what the "palestinians" have done to the gaza in just a few short weeks.

Shalom Chaverrim! Back from New Orleans (which I shall not talk about!). Just a quick note before I get some rest. Israel was the land of milk and honey. Date palm forests went from the Dead Sea to the Galilee until Arab nomads with their herds of hooved locusts (sheep, goats etc) over grazed and burned the trees for charcoal. That was an eco disaster! The land recognizes and thrives under Jewish hands now.

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story665.html
Combatting the Zionist propganda.

Go back to before the Arabs, dummy. And "Palestine remembered" is a propaganda site. Who's paying for this one with every fill up?

Yeah, those Palestinians are so environmentally sensitive. Destroying those green houses was a great first step for sustainable development in Gaza. I can't wait to see what they do with the place. I'm sure it will be inspiring.

Isn't it true that Palestine was empty and inhabited by nomadic people?

From the early stages of Zionism to the present, Zionists have propagated the myth that Palestinians did not settle Palestine until it was later developed by the Israelis. To facilitate such disinformation, the Zionists adopted the following slogan to entice European Jewry to emigrate to Palestine:

"A land with no people is for a people with no land".

Had the Zionist leadership admitted the existence of an indigenous people, then they would have been obliged to explain how they intended to displace them. To disprove this baseless myth, let's quote Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister) who stated as early as 1918 that "Palestine is not an empty country". According to Shabtai Teveth (one of Ben-Gurion's official biographers), Ben-Gurion stated in an article published in 1918 that:

"Palestine is not an empty country . . . on no account must we injure the rights of the inhabitants."

Ben-Gurion often returned to this point, emphasizing that Palestinian Arabs had "the full right" to an independent economic, cultural, and communal life, but not political. (Shabtai Teveth, p. 37-38)

To destroy this baseless myth, click here to view a page that was scanned from a book which was conceived and edited by Ben-Gurion himself, stating that Jews made up 12% of the total Palestinian population as of 1914. It's not only that the majority of the Jews in Palestine were not Zionists (by Ben-Gurion's own admission), but they were also not even citizens of the country since many had recently fled anti-Semitic Tsarist Russia.

As the Ottoman census records show Palestine was widely inhabited in the late 19th and early 20th century, especially in the rural areas where agriculture was the main profession. According to Justine McCarthy (p. 26), an authority on the Ottoman Turks, Palestine's population in the early 19th century was 350,000, and in 1914 Palestine had a population of 657,000 Muslim Arabs, 81,000 Christian Arabs, and 59,000 Jews (including many European Jews from the first and second Aliyah).

So the Jewish population in Palestine as of 1914 were under 8% of the total population, which was much smaller than the Palestinian Christian Arab population. It should be noted that our source, Justine McCarthy was quoted by many Israeli Jewish scholars like Benny Morris and Tom Segev. In that regard, it's worth quoting one of the most ardent Zionists, Israel Zangwill, who stated as early as 1905, that Palestine was twice as thickly populated as the United States. He stated:

"Palestine proper has already its inhabitants. The pashalik of Jerusalem is already twice as thickly populated as the United States, having fifty-two souls to the square mile, and not 25% of them Jews ..... [We] must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the [Arab] tribes in possession as our forefathers did or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population, mostly Mohammedan and accustomed for centuries to despise us." (Righteous Victims, p. 140 & Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 7-10)

In other words, Palestinians were recognized by the Zionist leadership as "humans" who populated Palestine, however, that was not good enough of a reason to "grant" them the same political rights as Jews, who mostly lived outside of Palestine. Consequently, this ideology was the prelude to the wholesale DISPOSSESSION and ETHNIC CLEANSING of the Palestinian people during the 1948 war.

Soon after the first Zionist Congress in Basel (Switzerland) in 1897, a Zionist delegation was sent to Palestine for a fact finding mission, and to explore the viability of settling Palestine with persecuted European Jews. The delegation replied back from Palestine with a cable that stated:

"The bride is beautiful, but she is married to another man." (Iron Wall, p. 3)

Despite that many Zionists were aware of this happy marriage as early as 1897, they have deliberately chosen to terminate this relationship since they think that Jewish rights are more important than Palestinian rights. The forcible divorce of Palestine from its indigenous people was eloquently articulated by Ze'ev Jabotinsky, the founder of the Israeli political Right, in 1926 who explained that:

" ... the tragedy lies in the fact the there is a collision here between two truths .... but our justice is greater. The Arab is culturally backward, but his instinctive patriotism is just as pure and noble as our own; it cannot be bought, it can only be curbed ... force majeure." (Righteous Victims, p. 108)

The questions which beg to be asked are these:

Do two wrongs make a right?
Is it just to solve an injustice by perpetrating another injustice?
If at one point, Palestinian injustice becomes greater than Jewish injustice, does that justify perpetrating war crimes to solve their injustice?
What makes many Zionists dangerous over time is that they start believing their own propaganda. For example, Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel's Prime Minister between 1996-1998, proposed lately that Israel should never relinquish control over the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip since he claims that the local population are the descendents of non-indigenous Palestinians. He also alleged that these people came to look for employment that was generated by the influx of new European Jewish capital. Yehoshua Porat, a Hebrew University professor, refuted the late Prime Minister in an article published in Ha'aretz Daily, click here to read his rebuttal. It's worth noting that Professor Porat worked for the campaign to elect Benjamin Netanyahu in 1996, so it might not be a good idea to call him Netanyahu hater.

It's really amusing that while nearly all Israelis and Zionists believe that Hawaii, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Tahiti, and Iraq were all populated by indigenous people prior to WW I, however, they find it extremely difficult to imagine that the "Promised Land" (one of the most strategic areas in the world) had any indigenous people whatsoever. It's as if the "Promised Land" had been waiting for over 2,000 years for Israelis and Zionists to settle it and make it bloom, click here to read our response to this argument.

Finally, it's not only that Palestine enjoyed a strategic commercial location (being the land bridge between Asia and Africa), its lands were also fertile and planted with all sorts of trees a long time before the Zionists came to its shorelines. So to claim that Palestine had no people until the Zionists came to settle it, is an absurd claim. Sadly, many Israelis and Zionists hate the idea of an indigenous Palestinian people to the point that they've created a fictitious world based on illusion. In that respect, the Palestinian people have a simple message: Over 8.5 million Palestinians are not going away. The sooner the Israelis and Zionists understand this simple message, the faster they will wake up from their delusional coma

The posted map is misleading on two points. Well over 90% of al land was non-owned "public land" so to combin eit with Arab owned land creates a misleading effect. And the vast majority of Arab owned land was owned by absentee land owners who resided in other Arab capitols and farmed by migratory tenant farmers.

What this apologist for colonialism calls "public land" was the Arab Commons.

No appology for misleading? And the desert? Can't help yourself but to deceive.

who should apologize for misleading us about the Arab Commons.

He should also apologize for misleading people about Simon Wiesenthal:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/09/1768672_comment.php#1769047

:When the Romans invaded ancient Judea, thick forests of date palms towering up to 80 feet high and 7 miles wide covered the Jordan River valley from the Sea of Galilee in the north to the shores of the Dead Sea in the south. The tree so defined the local economy that Emperor Vespasian celebrated the conquest by minting the "Judea Capta," a special bronze coin that showed the Jewish state as a weeping woman beneath a date palm.

Today, nothing remains of those mighty forests. The date palms in modern Israel were imported, mainly from California. The ancient Judean date, renowned for its succulence and famed for its many medicinal properties, had been lost to history. "

Read more about Weisenthals involvment and then get back to me . Or were you on his list Nazi troll, is that why the sensitivity?

Isn't it just like the antisemite narcissie to attack a Nazi hunter?

Isn't it _long_ past the time for any sane person to believe that he's in any way motivated by anything other than pure antisemitism, no matter what garb he tries to dress it in?

In short, isn't it time for nessie to be booted from this board as the little goosestepper he turns out to be once you look closely?

@%<

the poverty rate among israeli jews in israel proper is 33 percent (ha'aretz), placing israel as one of the poorest countries in the world. unfortunately, as the boycotts and sanctions begin to impact the "light unto nations," the largely impoverished underbelly of israel will suffer the most, not to mention the 23 percent of the population that is palestinian.

reasons for the vast impoverished underlayer in israeli society? a continuing commitment to vast military spending but most importantly continuing support for settlement building in the west bank.

If Israel can accomplish everything that it has while being in a state of siege since 1948, just imagine what if Israel didn't have to constantly defend itself from Arab armies and terrorists! B'ruch HaShem!

Just imagine what if Israel was not the US's Cuba and had to exist without enormous subsidies.

What would Israel look like without the hundreds of billions that have been given to it to fortify itself and oppress undesirable locals?

Maybe it might be a little less beligerent toward its neighbors and Palestinians, maybe a little more accomodating. Maybe it would be a true democracy now, a multi-ethnic single state rather than a militaristic non-democratic apartheid theocracy.

Just imagine...

Perchance to dream.

But for endless Arab wars Israel wouldn't need military aid. By the way ,Nazi troll, you'[ve got it reversed again, Israel is multi-ethnic. Its the Palestinian areas that are made Jew free.

Unlike most of the left-leaning people who post at this website, I've actually been to Israel.

So to the ignoramus who wrote (smells like Nessie):

"Maybe it would be a true democracy now, a multi-ethnic single state rather than a militaristic non-democratic apartheid theocracy."

Israel has it's flaws but it is a democracy. In some ways--e.g. multi-party representation--it's more democratic than the U.S. In other ways--free speech--it's less democratic than the U.S.

Israel is also multi-ethnic. Outside of our cosmopolitan urban areas, Israel is much more multi-ethnic than most of the U.S. In addition to Ashkenazim from all over the Western Europe, the former USSR and Soviet satellites, and the Sephardim aka "Spanish Jews", a sizeable percentage of the population is Mizrahim i.e. Jews from Asia and North Africa. There are also the Jews from Ethiopia. Additionally, there are Palestinian Arabs, Druze and Armenians living in Israel.

Israel is certainly not a theocracy. Want to see a theocracy, look at Iran. The kingdom of Saudi Arabia is also much more theocratic than Israel. One way to gauge the level of theocracy in a country is the level of religious tolerance. I know there are mosques, synagogues and churches in Israel. I've seen them, heard the call to prayer, etc. I also know that people of any religion are free to worship as they please, as in any democracy. Are there churches and synagogues in Iran? How about Saudi Arabia?

Israel does have a strong military. But it would not be necessary of the surrounding states--and the rest of the Muslim world--made peace with Israel instead of funding terrorism.

my point was about funding, in response to the statement, more or less, "how glorious would Israel be if we could exterminate arabs and palestinians?" how would israel look without hundreds of billions of dollars of charity from the US and others? hm?

as to your points

Israel is not a democracy. millions of people under its authority cannot vote to influence its government. maybe a democracy like ancient greece or early america whereby only "citizens" could vote. or, more recently, a democracy like pre-liberation South Africa where only white citizens could vote

israel is a theocracy in that it was built around one religion and its policies to this day favor that religion. sure, there might be churches and mosques (to the dismay of a good number of israelites) but judaism and jewish people are obviously favored in every way possible. look at the settlements in the west bank, a blatant attempt to control more territory by "facts on the ground" of growing jewish populations. sure, you can point to "more theocratic" societies, but that doesn't make israel any more secular in relation to the bulk of nations on this planet. also, a majority of jews in israel would like it to be *more* religious than it already is in its governmental policies, and as those with the most electoral influence, it will undoubtedly head more in the theocratic direction at least in the near future

Oh, Nazi troll,you forgot that under Oslo, the PA assumed governmental functions for the Palestinians. Thats who they vote for. And your fantasy "extermination", if hundreds ofthousands of Arabs let Israel, and now they claim to have millions, where's the extermination? It sounds like a population explosion to me.

As to theocracy, does that mean that you still won'trespond re: Moslem Wakf?

And you are making the claim that "some govenmental functions" is the same as being a sovereign state? that they are not still under the authority of Israel?

Until there is one state, or Palestinians are their own sovereign state, Israel is NOT a democracy. Plain and simple.

And what of the massive subsidies to this non-democracy? Is Israel still so glorious considering this massive charity?

Don't change the subject and say how bad others are. Someone asked us to "imagine" alternative Israels and so we are. But you refuse to imagine it without overly generous gifts from the US and others. What would Israel be without that??

It has been responded to repeatedly.

To summarize:

If “they do it, too” were a valid excuse, Hitler would be off the hook for killing those six million Jews, because Stalin killed six million Ukrainians.

GazaDisney management upbeat despite slow start

One month after its opening, the Gaza Disneyland theme park -- just a stone's throw from Gaza City -- is not proving to be the cultural invasion that management thought it would be.

One reason for this appears to be the inability of Palestinians to break their lifelong habits of mass homicide. Several families, one ticket seller and one mascot were vaporized when one Palestinian father mistakenly forgot to defuse the bomb he had strapped to his month-old child just three weeks earlier.

On Monday, a cool and blustery day and the first after Palestinian school holidays (Q'il Ahjoo and D'eth T'uizrail), many of the British, Italian and Dutch visitors ran away when GazaDisney workers, known as cast members, shot their rifles in the air for no apparent reason.

The rides are also turning visitors away, as the themes are considered objectionable and really not all that much fun. In a survey conducted by the park it was found that 23% didn't like the name of Mad Yasser's Whirling Kassam Rockets, 48% did not find favor with the Big Brainwash Mountain Roller-Coaster and 92% objected to the title of the Q'uranaway Train.

Judging from anecdotal reports and estimates of rail and road traffic between Gaza City and M'urdr Infd'els, 32 bombed-out neighborhoods to the east where the park is situated, Gaza Disneyland has not so far been a big draw in the capital.

"We believe we can attract visitors if we keep the murder rate down a bit," said Yasir Araslim, CEO of GazaDisney. "Right now, 1 out of 5 visitors die by misadventure. If we can lower the casualty rate to 1 out of 10, we believe we can generate significant revenue. It seems that people who don't die are better repeat customer canditates."

The few tourists that didn't die have cited displeasure with the overall experience. "This park is ridiculous," said Patty Mendrum, a visitor from France, "First of all, I am never getting on a ride called Land Mines of Allah. Secondly, ugh, I think their hot dogs are literally hot dogs! Thirdly, I got questioned by some costumed mascots about my virginity, something about their suicide bomber program. I am so out of here."

"Israel is a theocracy in that it was built around one religion and its policies to this day favor that religion."

This is a very wide definition of theocracy. So wide that the UK and France would be considered theocracies, which they aren't, of course.

Most people in the English-speaking world use this definition or something close to it:

"a government ruled by religious authorities"

Now I do not know of a single person--in Israel, the US, or anywhere--who would claim that religious authorities have no influence in Israel. They obviously do. But there is a big difference between "influence" and "rule". Israel is governed by the Knesset or parliament. Religious figures may influence what happens in the Knesset, they may organize and ask their adherents to vote in certain ways but, again, this is different than controlling the political process.

A good indication of whether a country is a theocracy is the extent of religious pluralism allowed in said country. In a theocratic nation, the state religion is recognized and given special treatment while other religions are outlawed, as is the case in Iran and Saudi Arabia.

You write:

“a majority of Jews in Israel would like it to be *more* religious than it already is in its governmental policies”

Where does your data come from? Is there a survey you are referring to? Is this a majority of the Jews in the West Bank or Israel? The reason I ask is most of the people I met in Israel (2004) were secularists and wanted religious authorities to have less influence.

And for the record, I think Israel would do o.k. without the current level of U.S. government funding. I'd like to see the level of aid decrease for both Israel and Egypt and I'd like to see the development of a free-trade zone in the region. When you look at the amount of aid as a percentage of Israel's GDP it is not that high. Do you know what the percentage is?

you'll see the Zionists make fun of palestinians, muslims, and arabs all day long. but they're not racist, oh no

then they'll trumpet how great Israel is and even how great their own religion is with things like "B'ruch HaShem!" (what is that, "blessed people" or something, referring to the "chosen ones"?). they can talk about their own religion, and others, all day long

if you dare to address their country, their racism, or their obviously superior religion, you'll get called an anti-semitic nazi

When did I ever refer to anyone as a Nazi?

You get called an anti-semitic nazi troll becauseof your incesant anti-semitic tirades. It seems that lately you don't even pretend to be anti-zionist. Your ignorance is amazing, particularly as to actual Jewish customs, history, practices and phrasing. Since all prejudice comes from ignorance, your prejudice must be gigantic.

here ya go

http://indybay.org/news/2005/08/1758815.php

A May 2005 survey by the National Security Studies Center at the University of Haifa found many Israelis in agreement with some of Halfon's views: 56 percent wanted more religion in secular schools and 33 percent wanted Israel to be governed under Halacha, Jewish religious law.

In the same survey, 39 percent said they favored the concept of "Greater Israel" -- which would incorporate the occupied territories and more -- even at the expense of the state's democratic system. And 40 percent rejected giving any of Israel's current territory to Palestinians, even as part of a full peace agreement.


How secular and democratic does that sound? I'll grant that it is not a full-force theocracy, it's more fairly called "theocratic," I think, but to compare it with Britain or France is ridiculous. Zionists, the keepers of Israel's PR image, constantly refer to it themselves as the "Jewish State" or declare the "right of Jewish people to have a country in which they can self-determine" (to paraphrase).

Jews around the world need and have needed a safe haven and a place to practice the Jewish religion without being harrassed.

anonymouse: "then they'll trumpet how great Israel is and even how great their own religion is with things like "B'ruch HaShem!" (what is that, "blessed people" or something, referring to the "chosen ones"?)"

Notice what anonymouse projects onto a phrase he doesn't understand?

Kinda telling, isn't it?

Just to clue him in, it means, more or less, the same thing a Christian means when he says "Praise God." The difference is, when a Christian says that, mingy little anonymice don't snidely accuse all Christians of racism.

Once again, "anti-Zionism" turns out to be something else.

@%<

okay, then, so why all of the objections to refering to it as what it is, a non-secular, theocratic nation? if the Zionists can call it that, they can't at the same time call those who agree on this point, but aren't Zionists, anti-semetic nazis


the ironic thing is that Jewish people are anything but safe in Israel and there is serious long-term generational paranoid damage being done to the Jewish psyche there. it's like reliving the horrors of the jewish holocaust over and over instead of truely finding relief in a truely-safe haven. Zionists can blame this on the evil, crazy arabs/muslims/palestinians all they want, but as long as Israel operates in a hostile manner toward millions of people under its authority and refuses to allow them equal rights, that's all israel is going to get, more to worry about. more stress. more damage to the jewish psyche. (not to mention the long-term generational damage being done to the palestinian psyche there now as well). if there were magical peace today, it would still take another generation or two to repair the mental damage perpetuating today

Golda Meir said it much better than I "When they love their children as much as they hate us, there will be peace in the land"

"but to compare it with Britain or France is ridiculous"

Why? The level of religious freedom for Muslims is greater in Israel than France. And cultural autonomy for Muslims is also much greater in Israel than in France. As you know, Arabic is Israel's second language.

Thanks for the link to the survey. I'll have a look when I get home from work. However, this public opinion survey still does not prove that Israel is a theocracy, or, in your rewording "theocratic". I think a decent percentage of the US electorate wants more religion in schools as well. Maybe not 56% but its close. This does not make the US a theocracy either.

In a democracy, public opinion is important because politicians want to get elected. But public opinion is not the final word. Democratic political institutions--like parliament and a supreme court--matter as well. In a democratic society, the majority may feel that they want to discriminate against certain populations through the legislative process but there are checks and protections through the courts. For example, the Israeli Supreme Court recently ruled that the path of the separation wall was illegal. So, it will be rerouted. This is what happens in a democratic country.

And, to the best of my knowledge, France considers itself the home of French people just like Israel considers itself home for the Jewish people. I don't think Israel is unique in this regard.

"Just to clue him in, it means, more or less, the same thing a Christian means when he says "Praise God." The difference is, when a Christian says that, mingy little anonymice don't snidely accuse all Christians of racism."

wrong. yes, indeed, I would accuse someone who came to this website and concluded a comment with that as a religious bigot. and it's not just saying "praise god" as you break it down -- it's saying "praise my jewish god". that's offensive to people of other religions, or those who consider themselves agnostic or atheistic, especially when Zionist here constantly hit any non-zionist discussion of judaism and half of the non-zionist discussions of israel with charges of anti-semitism. you can't have it both ways. if you want to run around and call every other thing anti-semitic, it looks pretty darned hypocritical to directly make fun of other religions on a regular basis (and I can't recall anyone directly making fun of judaism as a religion here on a regular basis). and if you're gonna get all hot and bothered when non-zionists discuss the religious aspects of israel's existence, then you probably shouldn't be trumpeting your judaism. how can you say "praise my jewish god" and make fun of islam regularly and then scream anti-semitism and nazi on way-less direct confrontations about israel? it boggles the mind how unfair that is

I did not and would not consider that religious proclaimation racist in and of itself. my racist point was to that disneyland-type crap that appears all of the time here (that YOU largely if not totally ignore)

lastly, seeing how I can only google hebrew phrases to discover their meaning, I found this and was not that far off in my interpretation of it:
"However, when he pursued a marriage partner for Yitzchok with full commitment and devotion, he lost the status of "orur," cursed, and became a "blessed" person, as indicated by the words "Bo b'ruch Hashem" in verse 31."


your claims of anti-semitism are tired and lazy, and ring very hollow, especially when you say nothing about blatant religious proclamations nor open and coarse bigotry against non-jewish religions all of the time

is to an article by the SF Chronicle, *not* the survey itself. I do not rely on secondary sources in general but especially with survey data. Do you know where I can view the survey? I went to the National Security Studies Center at the University of Haifa and could not locate it.

"and it's not just saying "praise god" as you break it down -- it's saying "praise my jewish god". that's offensive to people of other religions..."

For some reason you don't get upset when your Palestinian pals claim "there is no other god but Allah". Why is that? We know why Nessie...

"France considers itself the home of French people just like Israel considers itself home for the Jewish people. I don't think Israel is unique in this regard."

don't you even realize how you contradict yourself there?

I could agree with you, that they would be equivalent countries, if you had said, "France considers itself the home of FRENCH people just like Israel considers itself home of ISRAELI people."

"home for the Jewish people" lends a lot of credence to how Israel indeed differs from Britain, or France, or the US even. it lends credence to the understanding of its theocratic nature as a nation. it lends a lot of credence to those who claim Israel is NOT a democracy as its supporters considers it a "home for" only a certain percentage of its residents, while millions of others are a nuisance or burden not worthy of the same rights or resources ("what if" they weren't there or just bowed down and accepted their fate as second-class citizens? one zionist pondered above)

" For some reason you don't get upset when your Palestinian pals claim "there is no other god but Allah"

where did they say that in these threads here on this website? when did I agree and not call that out?

I certainly have taken christian religious bigots to task who dare show their face at this site and proclaim the righteousness of jesus or whathaveyou and how that makes their position the superior one. if they put it out there, it's fair game for confrontation

I can't recall too many palestinian muslims proclaiming their faith here. maybe you can point to a URL? or maybe you can admit that's a BS claim?

anonymouse: "Yes, indeed, I would accuse someone who came to this website and concluded a comment with that ["baruch HaShem"] as a religious bigot."

So you're even more of a whack job than I thought you were, and your accusations are worthless.

But let's see how deep this stupidity goes. Is every Jewish prayer which includes "baruch HaShem" an act of religious bigotry?

anonymouse: "yammity yammity yammity"

Whatever. Return to sanity and we can talk.

@%<

Upton Sinclair said," it is difficut for a man to understand something when his livlihood depends on his not understanding it"

So, Nazi troll, its obvious that you don't understand, but I no longer expect you to.

jewish people are idiots. just look at the way they act. can you imagine a disneyland in israel proper? what a joke that would be!

praise jesus! praise our one true lord and savior!


no, if I tie that religious proclamation into my arguements here, that's not religous bigotry and I should not worry that it would be offensive to jews or muslims who might be reading. right on, gehrig!

btw, if you don't get it, my objection is to someone declaring such things here, on indybay, in arguements on comment threads about israel and then reflexively calling 1/2 of all anti-zionist arguements anti-semitic. if you want to scream praise for your god on the mountaintop anywhere else, go for it. if you do it here, it's gonna be called out as religious dogma, and if you do it here, and defend it even, while you say not peep about blatantly racist and religiously bigoted comments about palestinians/muslims/arabs, you are gonna get called out as a religious bigot yourself.

is this now a jewish prayer site?

is your IMC now a jewish prayer site? or are you open to prayers of all faiths? maybe you can schedule a multi-faith "pray for peace in israel" session sometime soon and announce it here. yes, IMCs all over need more religious. damn those secular IMCs to hell!

anonymouse: "yammity yammity yammity"

Apparently to you, "religious bigot" means anyone who doesn't share your religious beliefs. Pretty ironic, isn't it.

@%<

Of course, feel free to practice your religion too. Judaism is not one of those faiths that feels that everyone has to convert. Its a highly tolerant faith. Thats why we don't have missionaries.

let's go back to the source of this latest discussion

"just imagine what if Israel didn't have to constantly defend itself from Arab armies and terrorists! B'ruch HaShem!"

gehrig, in your infinite wisdom, is that a religiously bigoted statement in this comment thread? yes, or no?

I think it is, unequivocally. and the irony (or hypocrisy) of this genious Yid is that he can barely type anything out here without calling someone an anti-semitic nazi. other words and phrases seem to allude him

gehrig, do you agree that that is hypocritical or at least ironic of Yid?

and who posted that lovely disneyland story?

anonymouse: "gehrig, in your infinite wisdom, is that a religiously bigoted statement in this comment thread? yes, or no?"

Nope. It seems to have escaped you -- and the spots that appear before your eyes whenever anyone uses the word "Israel" -- but that was actually, as Shtarker could confirm, a prayer for peace. Thanks for asking.

anonymouse: "I think it is, unequivocally."

Well, that's not the only stupid thing you believe unequivocally, now is it.

@%<

Just imagine what if America didn't have to constantly defend itself from Arab armies and terrorists! Praise Jesus!

Such an ignorant Christian-hating troll

I am Yid, hear me roar!

Thanks for not false posting under my handle this time.

why would you code a prayer for peace so that only those in your religious sect would get it? kinda defeats the whole supposed peace objective if others don't readily know what you are saying

and now it's a prayer for peace. a few comments back, it was "praise my jewish god," which you seem to fully think is appropriate for IMC discussions.

and, be honest now, if I was debating you and I said things like "praise jesus" (or even used some christian language you did not understand) to conclude my arguements against zionism, you would not consider that bigoted or anti-semitic? of course you would. you readily kneejerk to that accusation over far, far less than blatant religious proclamations like "praise jesus". your hypocrisy is growing louder and louder the more you defend this crap and say not squat about the hateful anti-palestinian/muslim/arab things so many zionists delight in saying here

Nope ,wrong again. Pray anyway that you want to and I won't consider it anti-semitic in the least. Judaism is a very tolerant, non-exclusive religion. Its the hateful Jew bashing that I consider anti-semitic.

As I am neither Arab or Moslem, I don't feel its my place to speak for them or to be offended o their behalf. Its not appropriate. I don't seem to share your "white mans burden" that way.

anonymouse: "why would you code a prayer for peace so that only those in your religious sect would get it?"

Maybe, just maybe, because he wasn't praying to _you_. Duh, d'ya think?

And isn't it just _absolutely_ par for your course that you interpret what you don't understand, automatically, reflexively, as a Jewish insult you then proceed to get all shrieky about?

I mean, could you make your case any more textbook?

anonymouse: "yammity yammity yammity"

Oh, sorry, were you saying something?

@%<

all I said was screw those arab muslims

all I said was accept jesus into your heart and peace will be had throughout the land

I'm praying for peace damnit

you could have used this as an opportunity to appreciate the glory of christianity, and study the new testament, but instead you use it as an absurd opportunity to bash christians

we're starting a christian prayer group here on Indybay. join now or forever perish in the flames of hell

This is some of the funniest shit on the Web. You all should find a publisher.

Judaism is far more open than that. However a person wants to pray, thats quite fine. Its so tolerant a faith that the Bahai, Chrstians, Moslems, Samaritans, Druse, etc all have significant places of worship in Israel.

to permit the sale of land in Israel by Jews to Arabs?

yup, but not the reverse. When I get around to it, I'll debunk that myth. On the other hand , it is a capitol offense under the PA for an Arab to sell land to a Jew. In Israel,Arabs are citizens like anyone else,there are even Arab MKs. Shocked?

no roots for any religions other than Judaism

always was, is, and always will be Jewish land

how benevolent of the Israelis to allow the others to share real estate that they have no roots in

of course, if the Israelis followed this guys advice (http://indybay.org/news/2005/08/1758815.php) and destroyed the Mosques and Churches, there'd be no Jewish-controlled Israel left

Workers of Gaza Unite!

The Independent Workers Committees in Gaza have added another demand to the PA: the indictment of whoever ordered that live ammunition be fired over the heads of workers and their children who demonstrated in Khan Yunis last Monday.
The Palestinian police - who vanish whenever a foreign citizen is kidnapped in broad daylight in the streets of Gaza and disappear whenever a gang of armed and masked members of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade take over a Palestinian Authority building - were out in full (and aggressive) force against several hundred workers and unemployed who staged the protest.
Abd-as-Samih an-Najjar, the elected head of the group, said, "We shouted at them [the police], 'In Neve Dekalim, the Israeli army stood in front of the settlers for days on end and did not harm them, while you, our national police force, throws tear gas at us within five minutes.'"

This is really important info, the relationship of a nation state to the land can often determine the validity of it's existence..

In the US, ecological destruction occurrs parallel with the genocide of indigenous north americans and ongoing prison slavery of Africans. Racism also corrupts the minds and spirits of the citizenry, being coerced by the state to participate in oppressive behavior..

Both Israel and the US are committing atrocities in the name of "Manifest Destiny" and religious "Zionism." These are both false premise arguments that devalue their stated purpose. There is no destiny to manifest if the regional ecology and human spirit are destroyed, our destiny is nowhere. Neither is there a paradise called "Zion" if the creation of said paradise involved genocide and ecological destruction. Hitler discovered the same mistake as the Nazi regime was overtaken by US forces and the Nazi generals were introduced to their new bosses in the CIA under codenamed Operation Paperclip. The Nazi quest for "Aryan" domination caused the destruction of Germany's forests and the genocide of millions of people. In the end the German people discovered how they were decieved by their fuehrer and unwillingly participated in genocide all to benefit the wealth of industrialists in Europe (Thyssen/Krupp/IG Farben) and the US (Rockefeller/Ford/etc.)..

Imperialism now manifest in the Bush regime with Sharon holding down the Middle Eastern colonial outpost of Israel is heading down the same path as Hitler. Genocide, militarization and mass imprisonment of ethnic minorities are a regular happening in both the US and Israel. As the atrocities against dissent worsens the imperialist's corrupt game of petrol-opoly will become evident for the world to witness, if need be before a war crimes tribunal..

Healing the ecosystem is needed for human survival on Earth, let that be heard if all else is ignored..

olive branch

You have an olive branch up your burqa Mustafa, the Arabs have already promised never ending war until Israel is destroyed. Guess what that bloody door swings both ways...

It's not just Arabs. It's everyone who believes in justice for the victims of Zionism.

Hamas Friday Sermons From Gaza on Al-Jazeera: We Can Liberate All of Palestine

The following are excerpts from Hamas Friday sermons and military parades in abandoned Israeli settlements in Gaza. The footage aired on Al-Jazeera TV on September 16, 2005.
We Do Not Distinguish Between 1940s and 1960s Lines
Sheikh Nazzar Rayan: "The vanquishing of the enemy in Gaza does not mean that this stage has ended. We still have Jerusalem and the pure West Bank. We will not rest until we liberate all our land, all our Palestine. We do not distinguish between what was occupied in the 1940s and what was occupied in the 1960s. Our Jihad continues, and we still have a long way to go. We will continue until the very last usurper is driven out of our land."

Speaker: "If the Palestinian Authority is weakened by the pressures, and tries, or even makes a decision to, collect the weapons, we will reject this decision, and we have the actual capabilities to reject it. We will not turn in these weapons – we have, after Allah, these weapons to thank for being where we are today, having liberated this place in honor and dignity. On the contrary, we say that these weapons will grow in strength. We will improve our ability to manufacture and buy weapons in order to continue the liberation. We stand at the gates of Hirbiya, Barbara, and Ashkelon, which we aspire to liberate. The liberation can progress only with these weapons and their improvement. So we say that, on the contrary... Oh you who bear arms but refrain from using them for liberating [our land], we call upon you to join us in the liberation effort. On the contrary – it is you who should give your weapons to us, so that we can use them honorably."

The Joy of the Martyr's Mother

Speaker: "It will be written in history that the Palestinian people knew its way, and knew for certain that this enemy understands only one language – the language of blood, the language of sacrifice, the language of martyrdom. This enemy has never fought a real battle throughout its history. It met [Arab] armies that were submissive, weak, and defeatist. It faced [Arab] leaders who were collaborators, cowards, and traitors. But then, when it faced a different kind of group – when it faced people who compete with one another for martyrdom, people who encourage their sons to die... A mother readies her son, and then receives the news of his martyrdom with cries of joy. A father receives the news of his son's martyrdom with pride and honor. Our women push our children [towards martyrdom], in a way that has confused the occupation.

Gaza is Like Tel Aviv

Hamas Spokesman Mushir Al-Masri: "We stand here on our liberated land, near the armistice borders. We remember when Sharon said that Netzarim is like Tel Aviv. Hamas has said, via the lion of Palestine [Rantisi], that Gaza is like Tel Aviv. The promise that has been fulfilled and will be fulfilled in the future, oh Sharon, is the promise of Allah, and the promise of Hamas. Behold, Palestine is being liberated, Allah willing."

"We Can Liberate All of Palestine – From the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River"

Al-Masri: "We have come here in multitudes to proclaim that Hirbiya and Ashkelon will be taken by the mujahideen. We have come here to say that the weapons of the resistance that you see here will remain, Allah willing, so that we can liberate Palestine – all of Palestine – from the [Mediterranean] Sea to the [Jordan] River, whether they like it or not."

Speaker: "What is your goal?" Crowd: "Allah." Speaker: "What is your goal?" Crowd: "Allah." Speaker: "Who is your leader?" Crowd: "The Prophet Muhammad." Speaker: "Who is your leader?" Crowd: "The Prophet Muhammad." Speaker: "What is your constitution?" Crowd: "The Koran." Speaker: "What is your constitution?" Crowd: "The Koran." Speaker: "What is your path?" Crowd: "Jihad." Speaker: "What is your path?" Crowd: "Jihad." Speaker: "What is your greatest desire?" Crowd: "Death for the sake of Allah." Speaker: "What is your greatest desire?" Crowd: "Death for the sake of Allah." Speaker: "What is your greatest desire?" Crowd: "Death for the sake of Allah." Speaker: "What is your movement?" Crowd: "Hamas." Speaker: "What is your movement?" Crowd: "Hamas." Speaker: "Oh multitudes, which are your brigades?" Crowd: "Al-Qassam." Speaker: "Oh multitudes, what is your army?" Crowd: "Al-Qassam." Speaker: "What is your army?" Crowd: "Al-Qassam." Speaker: "With the blessings of Allah, our land will be liberated, and we will walk in Tel Aviv, Haifa, and Jaffa."

Speaker: "I hope you will not listen to those who tremble in fear, to those who have disappointed [you], whom we have not heard in five years, to those who did not fire a single bullet, to those whose business and profits were not affected, to those who sent their children to universities in Europe, far from the heat of battle.

Here's where tia got this:

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP99105

MEMRI, like CAMERA and "Honest Reporting," is another mainstay of zionist PR amateurs like tia. She probably gets these "dispatches" automatically via e-mail, the better to spread anti-Islamic smears more freely. Oh, but there's no zionist conspiracy out there, no no NO!

It's okay to use PR dispatches -- i.e. lie, twist facts, cherry pick, and stack the jury -- when it's for a noble cause like Israel's program to destroy Palestinean society and steal their land.

Tia: "You know of course, that the Palestinians hired a Wall street i'laam firm to boost their popularity- I'll see if I can find you the name of the firm and how much they get every year. Wish I could get you a copy of their "talking points". EVERY ONE PLAYS THAT GAME."

Part of the world wide Zionist conspiracy- to- uh- what were we doing again? Thats right, take over the world! (doing it by proxy just isn't satisfying enough) If you go to the Memri site (Thanks for including the url! You are such a peach!)- you can play a clip of the entire talk. Hear for yourself. Angel- this is why the peace process keeps stalling. We don't have a willing partner.
Memri and Camera are our equivilent of Allison Weir's stuff- you should check out the sites for a different perspective. They talk about the media mias AGAINST Israel. But better yet, read a book. Need some recommendations? I'd avoid any bookstores with an obvious agenda, and I'm not fond of the big chains, either so i'd recommend your local public library.

why don't you live in Israel? Or do you?

Although circumstances don't permit me to live in Israel, I do intend to do my voluntary service in the Israeli Defense Forces, especially now that I recognize the local ISM people. I would encourage others including Tia to do the same.

For thse who actually care to read what the Arab media says, Memri is a tranlastion service that translates Arab media into English. Itts quite different that what you might read in the mainstream media and often shocking.

Camera addresses media distortions against Israel. The photo that inspired the site was repported by the NY Times as a Palestinian being beaten byan Israeli poice officer. The distortionwas thatthe"victim" was actually an American Jewish kid being saved from a Palestinian lynching by the same Israeli policeman. Quite revealing about media bias where Palestinians are always supposed to be the victims, really.

Surely Schtarker et al are not stupid enough to think intelligence is not also gathered on them, or are they?

See you at the checkpoints!

See you at Dolores Park, if who have enough spine to show your face to our cameras.

They were run out by the persistance of armed Palestinians. The West Bank is next. Then comes Israel "proper".

Why don't I live in Israel?
I don't speak Hebrew , so I really wouldn't have a lot to offer them, and my employment options would be limited. (Although, for this particular rootless cosmopolitan, agrarian labor on a kibbutz does have some appeal)
Also- maybe I can do more good here.....just a little at a time.

– when it faced people who compete with one another for martyrdom, people who encourage their sons to die... A mother readies her son, and then receives the news of his martyrdom with cries of joy. A father receives the news of his son's martyrdom with pride and honor. Our women push our children [towards martyrdom], in a way that has confused the occupation.

And when they do it...its....uh...indoctrination?

it's self defense against a racist oppressor.

"Although circumstances don't permit me to live in Israel, I do intend to do my voluntary service in the Israeli Defense Forces, especially now that I recognize the local ISM people. I would encourage others including Tia to do the same."

Don't you think you're encouraging their paranoid delusions here? Zionist conspiracy and all? Next you are going to go and tell everyone about those secret Jew meetings every Saturday morning- the ones where everyone murmurs in an ancient language and hides their faces in large shawls so they can't be recognized.

Yeah,they're nuts enough already.

rather than repeat myself

http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/09/1769258_comment.php#1769477

unless it is fun for you to be here, there's really no other reason as it is absolutely non-productive for your pro-zionist cause

"the only thing that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing."

No -its not fun for me. (although others seem greatly amused by it). You just seethe with hate and intolerance- I know you aren't worth the time or energy or effort. Your own hate will cause you to self-destruct someday. Just a fascist in "progressive" clothing-just a white supremist cloaking his rascism however he can.

"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."

Nah- I won't stop. Not now anyway.

I have yet to see here a single person say, "oh, yes, gerhig, you have convinced me that Israelis have the right to treat millions of palestinians like 2nd class citizens, subhumans in many ways, deny them full independent statehood or full citizenship in israel"

but you go on dreaming. wouldn't want to burst your hopeful bubble

it's about these people too

http://www.indybay.org/international/palestine/

gerhig would rather you forget what is happening today in israel and focus on the crimes against jews of 60 years ago. while horrible and haunting for jews for all time, that doesn't justify them oppressing millions of PEOPLE today

what should israel do then?

how can palestinians really refuse statehood? think about it. it makes absolutely no sense (no please, we don't want to be a country, will you just keep ruling over us without giving us a vote, pretty please?). if israel wanted them to have statehood, well then just get the fuck out of their land -- stop settling and expanding in the west bank -- and leave it up to them to run.

why is it israel's perogative to decide if palestine gets statehood anyway? and all the while whatever statehood may eventually be granted by the benevolent rulers of israel continues to shrink

apparently, despite what you say your feeling may be, israel does not think FULL statehood for palestinians is a good thing for them

pawn it off on the palestinians as their fault, as is typical for mr. not-a-zero-sum-game and his pack of brave israel defenders, but if israel wanted to ALLOW palestinians to run their own country it would be done by now. they'd have seaports, airports, a small army, you name it.

there you have it in a nutshell

it's all the palestinians fault for not accepting israels terms enforced with military power and their statehood is soley for israel to chose to grant or not at their benevolent mercy

israel continues to choose "not" and therein lies the rub

and you dare talk about it not being a zero-sum game

Thats a shallow analysis. It ignores 5 Arab-Israeli wars.

sure, there's layers and layer of issues, and we could debate them all endlessly, as zionists seem to prefer to do to avoid the real issue

bottomline, israel is in control of millions of people who cannot vote in the government that controls their very existence and has for over 50 years

that's the bottomline that zionist proponents paper over again and again

it's only a minor problem to the citizens of israel, sort of the jewish burden, if you will, but to the millions of palestinians who have toiled under such circumstances for generations it is anything but a minor problem

one thing you zionists forget is how would you feel to be a palestinian? you know, of course, all the righteous things every last one of them should do, and you assume you would do those very righteous things yourselves if the situation were reversed, that is if palestinians kept jewish people down for decades and blamed the situation on the jews, but really, c'mon, think about it. you are schtarker afterall, and if your 1/4 as tough as you act like you are, you'd have a strong fight in you to change the system and get your people what they deserve, even if that included violence. I really can't see you just sitting back, accepting your inferiority from powers on high that you are powerless to effect through legal means, and telling your children that's just the way it is and will be for them too.

What if the tables were turned and Israel lost the war in 1948? Or 1953 ? or 1967? What would have become of the Jews living in Israel? Would the leftists and progressives of today be working this hard to ensure those Jews had a state of their own? Or any freedom at all? Just wondering.

I directly asked "how would you feel to be a palestinian?" today. in. this. world.

I was not opening the door to speculating 1000 million other historical hypotheticals. what if hitler was never born? what if? what if? that's totally different than empathizing in the here and now with the real suffering of a people today

of course, you tried to divert attention to those damned hypocritical jewish-hating leftists rather than deal with the real bottomline question at hand. why am I not surprised at your inability to empathize with the victims of your oppression? because it's a lot harder to oppress someone if you can empathize with their struggles. and if you empathize with their struggles, then you would have to modify your behavior and either allow palestinians to have a contiguous sovereign state or incorporate them as equals into yours, but that's not quite the jewish-dominated dream country of so many zionists

"Would the leftists and progressives of today be working this hard to ensure those Jews had a state of their own? Or any freedom at all? Just wondering."

Pre1948 a large percentage of the supporters of Zionism were radical left. Most didnt want a Jewish only state and assumed that due to the high ideals of the left-Zionists Israel would treat all groups equally and the exodus of Palestinians wouldnt have occured. You only need to look at Einstein's statements about Begin to see how many Zionist leaders were troubled by attacks on Palestinians during Israels founding.

BEfore 9/11 many radical groups spent a lot of energy on gay and women's rights issues in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. If such activism isnt as visible today its mainly because Bush has made such actions by those in the US counterproductive. Being gay in Iran is hard enough but do you need the additional hatred aimed at you that is bound to result by being associated with a country that is invading neighboring countries?

I directly asked "how would you feel to be a palestinian?" today. in. this. world.


NOT LIKE THIS:

But then, when it faced a different kind of group - when it faced people who compete with one another for martyrdom, people who encourage their sons to die... A mother readies her son, and then receives the news of his martyrdom with cries of joy. A father receives the news of his son's martyrdom with pride and honor.
Our women push our children [towards martyrdom]

I would teach my children about the sanctity of all life.- especially their own. I would instill hope. I would consciously seek joy.

How many Holocaust survivors do you read about blowing up buses in Germany?

This:

"I would teach my children about the sanctity of all life.- especially their own. I would instill hope. I would consciously seek joy... How many Holocaust survivors do you read about blowing up buses in Germany?"

IS NOT EMPATHY. It's condemnation, vilification, dehumanization. This is what you and the other ideologues do to them all the time. Meaning you're not answering the question, you're evading it. Empathy means trying to understand why the Palestinians feel they MUST do what they do. By understanding it I mean on THEIR terms, not yours.

It's telling that you're always harping on the blowing up of buses, the most evil thing they've done, when most of the militant activity involves fighting with troops on their own turf. This is like us talking about Baruch Goldstein every time we mention Israel's crimes. It betrays a desire to always dehumanize them, to portray them in the worst light possible. Meanwhile you always cast Israel and zionists as the martyrs, the heroes, the valiant self-sacrificing underdogs always struggling against all that is evil and insane. It's all black and white for you, no ambiguities at all. This is the universe of the bigot.

I directly asked "how would you feel to be a palestinian?" today. in. this. world.

You want more? I would tell my children that finding a soulmate on earth is more pleasurable than 70 virgins in the after life. I would tell my children that a person of faith knows that hope exists UNTIL THE LAST BREATH. I would tell my children that education is the only way out and that every great religion in the world believes that faith and love are the only things strong enough to defeat the power of hate. I would tell my children that anything that draws us closer to the source of all light is good, and powerful and true.


It's telling that you're always harping on the blowing up of buses, the most evil thing they've done, when most of the militant activity involves fighting with troops on their own turf.

And this I can deal with- I can't ever accept the deliberate destruction of the innocent- the targeted destruction of the innocent

This is like us talking about Baruch Goldstein every time we mention Israel's crimes. It betrays a desire to always dehumanize them, to portray them in the worst light possible. Meanwhile you always cast Israel and zionists as the martyrs, the heroes, the valiant self-sacrificing underdogs always struggling against all that is evil and insane. It's all black and white for you, no ambiguities at all. This is the universe of the bigot.

And your refusal to accept any responsibility for the role the Palestinians have in creating this mess cast you as a bigot. Its all black and white for you, no ambiguities at all.

For the one hundreth time, they'd have a lot more sympathy from me if they were targeting infrastucture and not PEOPLE.

" How many Holocaust survivors do you read about blowing up buses in Germany?"

none, because the Third Reich got it's ass kicked, and they passed laws against it ever returning

I bet you anything that if the Third Reich had not overreached globally and managed to stay in power, say 50+ years, and they denied equal rights to millions within their borders, oh, yeah, there'd be a whole bunch of jewish people sabatoging things and blowing things up, including the killing of "innocent" germans even who passively supported the evil regime

if that were the case, and Hitler's cronies were still in power there, and you lived there, would you still tell your child that BS about the sanctity of life? would you tell your sons and daughters to just sit there and take it? maybe you would, but somehow I seriously doubt it

I'm rubber, you're glue
anything you say bounces off me
and sticks to you

nar-ne-nar
nar-ne-nar
nar-ne-nar
nar-ne-nar
nar-ne-nar

Yawn. Another ad hominem tu quoque. How boring

big fat liar

it's about zionists constantly moving the goalposts to assure that they always have a reason to justify denying equal rights to millions. if palestinians didn't kill people anyone as they were being killed by israelis and just destroyed infrastructure instead, rest assured Tia would not be happy with that and it would be reason enough to deny palestinians equal right for another 50 years..

some other zionist here today say something to the effect of, "we'll see how they handle Gaza and then decide if they can have statehood," as if anything the palestinians ever do will be good enough for their masters to "grant" them equal rights.

I am reminded of the old charlie brown comics where lucy (I think it was lucy) would always con poor ol' charlie brown into running for the football thinking she would hold it for him to kick. every single time she yanked it up at the last second and he'd fall down. he'd get discouraged over and over again over the years, and she would promise to *really* hold it the next time. charlie brown would fall for it again, trust her to hold the ball, and sure enough lucy would yank it up at the last second same as she always did

well, the palestinians are not charlie brown, though, and israelis have a lot more reason to be afraid than lucy ever did

why else would you be here day in and day our defending a corrupt and tyranical govenrment?

how many times are you crying about the horrible, oh so horrible, palestinians?

what other excuse do zionist use daily to defend denying equal rights to millions than how scary those palestinians are?

it's FEAR, FEAR, FEAR. and you apologists for israel's apartheid state should be afraid. your days are numbered

incorporated the palestinians into your country or give them a contiguous one of there own. not in another 50 years, making it 100+ of israeli tyranny, but now

The Palestinians have had many oportunities to have their own state beging in in '36, and then '47, '67, and 2000. The worst enemy of the Arab people has always been the Arab leadership. Its obvious that theres more going on thaen political desire.

It is condescendingly racist as a Non-Palestinian to assert that you,as an American, know better whats right for them then they do themselves. But thats in keepig with the rest of your posts.

"incorporate the palestinians into your country"

Not my country. I'm not Israeli. I can't vote there or influence their policies. Israel is a democracy. If the majority disagrees with the policies of the government, they will vote the government out of power. Thats the way a democracy works.

"or give them a contiguous one of there own. not in another 50 years, making it 100+ of israeli tyranny, but now"

They will get a country of their own. By many accounts they already have a country of their own. It will not be continguous. Ask your friends in Alaska and Hawaii if they feel marginalized because they aren't contiguous to mainland America.

"The worst enemy of the Arab people has always been the Arab leadership."

amazing that you can even type such things

astounding really

and what is Israel to them then? the generous but stern uncle?

"If the majority disagrees with the policies of the government, they will vote the government out of power."

really, now?

and do those votes include the millions and millions of palestinians? nope, they are whatcha call disenfranchised

israel is only a democracy in the sense america was in 1785 whereby only white male property owners could vote, or ancient greece whereby only a small percentage of the population were considered citizens worthy of civic participartion.

The Arabs in Israel vote. They have full citizenship. They have representation in Israel's Parliamnent. They have the full legal protection of Israeli law.

millions of palestinians, tia, cannot vote to effect their own lives as israelis can

and palestine is NOT yet a sovereign country in any sense of the word. are they free to kick israelis out of their territories? can they flow freely through airports and seaports? do they have their own military with the weapons a nation would have such as tanks and ships and planes?

Millions of Palestinians vote to affect their own lives, just as Israelis can by voting for the PA.

Palestine could have been a sovereign country in every sense of the word over and over again as we have often discussed. Israel left their territories under Oslo, only to be compelled to return to fight terror attacks. When they actually uphold any of their agreeements and provide assurances that endless streams of illegal weapons (remember the Karine ?) don't flow freely through airports and seaports, then those will be open too. They have had their own
military with the weapons before they ever had diplomacy including 30,000 machine guns gven to them by Israel purportedly for law enforcement and later used for terror against civilians. I've also seen photos of their armored personal carriers.

They do not have full citizenship.Jews have more rights. An Arab, for example, cannot purchase land from a Jew. Arabs who were born in that part of Occupied Palestine that the Zionists call "Israel Proper" cannot return home from their exile, but Jews born of the other side of the planet are welcomed with open arms and money. And so forth.

No, they are not equal. They are threated like dhimmi.

check the questions here

http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/09/1768990_comment.php#1769631

it was a follow-up on your "no jewish bombers in germany" hypothetical


also, I note that you never even shed a crocodile tear of empathy for the plight of the palestinians

"30,000 machine guns gven to them by Israel purportedly for law enforcement"

"purportedly" yeah -- they wouldn't mind palestinians gunning down their own, not one bit. do israelis enforce the law against other israelis with machine guns?

as for the effectiveness of an "army" with 30,000 machine guns as their big to-do, would israel still exist if that's all they had to defend themselves as a nation? hardly

thats just what was given to them by Israel, to say nothing of what they purchased with supposed aid money or what the Arab nations and Iran has given over.

In fact, around 80 percent of the land in Israel is owned by the state through the Israel Land Authority. Neither Arab Israelis nor Jewish Israelis can buy this land, but it is leased on an equal basis to Arab and Jewish citizens of Israel. Indeed, half the land used by Israeli Arab farmers is leased from the Israeli government. In addition there are affirmative action programs under which some Arab citizens pay much lower lease rates than do Jewish citizens. Claiming discrimination, a Jewish citizen sued the government to get the same rates, but the Israeli Supreme Court upheld the practice, ruling that the positive discrimination in favor of Arab citizens was justified as affirmative action (Avitan v. Israel Land Administration, HC 528/88). Private land in Israel is freely available for sale to anyone, Arab or Jew.

Notably, it is often ignored that Arab states, including Jordan and the Palestinian Authority, prohibit land sales to non-Arabs, and that the PA enforces a death penalty for the “crime” of selling land to a Jew.

Quote From Nathan Weinstock, (an anti-Zionist by the way)

“While the effendi stratum engaged in these profitable transactions (land deals brought it the handsome sum of £854,796 in 1933, £1,647,836 in 1934 and £1,699,488 in 1935), secret collaboration with the British and the Zionists enabled its members, nevertheless, to preserve their dominant position. Thus it was that the Husseinis displayed “moderation” during the first years of the Mandate (after the events of 1920 which had cost one of their main leaders, Pasha Musa Kazem al-Husseini, his office as Mayor of Jerusalem). For their part the Nashashibis courted the British and cultivated friendships on the Zionist Executive. The Abdul Hadis – the biggest landowners in Palestine – concluded a secret agreement with the Zionist leaders in 1928 on the eve of the 7th Arab Conference, promising that the customary denunciation of the Balfour Declaration would be dropped.

But, whilst in public these leaders stepped up their incendiary attacks on Zionism, denouncing any transfer of ancestral soil to the Jews as a betrayal, they secretly enriched themselves by means of the very operations which they so furiously attacked. The fanatical braggadocio was designed for the gallery. It made it possible to win the support of the masses. It also, no doubt, served other less avowable goals. Under nationalist pressure, the small Arab landowners no longer dared to sell their land openly to the Jews. During the 1936-1939 Revolt [Mufti of Jerusalem Hajj Amin Al] Husseini’s guerillas actually executed “traitors”, but “at the same time a close relative of the Mufti was doing a brisk trade in precisely such allegedly criminal deals, but with a notable difference, for this person used to force sales from Arab small-holders at niggardly prices and then resell to the Jews at the usual exorbitant rates ...” In other words, hyper-nationalist propaganda became a lucrative industry, indeed even an American-style racket, for the Arab gentry.”

[End Quote From Nathan Weinstock]

Take note that the Mufti Hajj Amin Al Husseini, who (one often hears) supposedly led an anti-colonial struggle, and in so doing founded the Palestinian movement, does not really behave like an anti-colonialist or someone looking after the interests of Palestinian Arabs.

With respect to the first point, he was not bothered that land was being sold to immigrant Jews so long as it was *his* family that made a handsome profit. With respect to the second point, he had no problem with his family coercing land sales from small Arab landowners at bargain prices so that they could then resell to immigrant Jews at exorbitant prices. Not only that: he executed some of these small Arab landowners for a sin no greater than also trying to make a profit, which activity lowered the price of land on the market for Hajj Amin’s relatives. Hajj Amin and his relatives were Palestinian *gangsters*, and the first effect of a gangster is always to bring misery to his own population, which Hajj Amin did, repeatedly.

It is true that the Arab share-cropping laborers - the fellahin - who had been working in lands that were sold to immigrant Jews, were often out of a job (at least temporarily) after the transactions were concluded, and many suffered dire poverty. But the immigrant Jews did not cause this situation: it was already true that these laborers were very poor, completely exploited by, and chronically indebted to, the effendi class because of the feudal structure of Palestinian Arab society.

What the Jews did was buy land from people who wanted to sell it. The Jews needed to buy land on which to farm, and they could only buy it from those people who had title to the land. A long history of feudal exploitation of the Arab lower classes by the Arab upper classes in Palestine cannot suddenly become the fault of “the Jews” just because they buy some land.

Anti-Zionists like Nathan Weinstock *do* try to make that argument, however. For example:

[Start Quote From Nathan Weinstock]

“When the question of the acquisition of land by the Zionist organisations in Palestine is broached, it is usually not stated that these land transactions are to be explained by the big Arab landowners’ eagerness to sell their property. Furthermore, these purchases led to an extremely lucrative wave of property speculation; the price of a dunam near Rishon-le-Zion, originally 8 shillings, had gone up to £P.10-£P.25 by 1931. The Zionists certainly paid dearly for their Holy Land. The high-prices sales, which brought a fortune to the usurious, parasitic effendi class, proved disastrous for the fellahin who were expelled from the estates they had worked on. Massive dispossession of the fellahin was the essence of the Palestinian problem, both as a national and a social issue.

Certain authors try and skirt round this direct consequence of the Zionist enterprise, which was testified to, for example, by the groups of dispossessed fellahin reduced to beggary in the shantytowns situated at the gates of Haifa. Yet it was not long before popular discontent reached such a pitch that the British authorities had to offer to put Crown lands at the disposal of the evicted share-croppers.”

[End Quote From Nathan Weinstock]

Weinstock is attacking those who defend the morality of immigrant Jewish land acquisitions. That is who he criticizes for attempts to “skirt round this direct consequence of the Zionist enterprise.” But the point is, why speak like that? Why not call it a direct consequence of the feudal nature of Palestinian Arab society?

After all, the effect of Jewish immigration was to increase the demand for agricultural land in Palestine, which then created land speculation by the effendi landowners. Other things can do that, too (and did); for example, immigration from other parts of the Arab world into Palestine, and the arrival of technologies that made land more productive, plus a native Arab agrarian capitalist class that meant to develop this land. In such a case the results for the poor Arab laborers are the same, and yet I would bet my house that in such cases nobody rushes here to identify *the people buying land* as those creating the problem. The problem was obviously already there.

Matters are different if the land-buyers are Jews. But the difference is not in the structure of the situation, it has to do with anti-Semitism.

In this regard, note that, commenting on the impoverishment resulting from the sale of land, Weinstock writes, “Yet it was not long before popular discontent reached such a pitch that the British authorities had to offer to put Crown lands at the disposal of the evicted share-croppers.”

In other words, the British Mandate authority had taken possession of part of the land. And the British withheld this land from use - a boon to the big landowners, of course, since scarcity increases price, but bad for the Jewish immigrants and the land-starved Arab poor. Why doesn’t Weinstock attribute the misery of the fellahin to this British policy of grabbing and withholding land, some of which they released to the poor *only* when faced with social disturbances? For Weinstock, the British are not the problem; the big landowners are not the problem; the Arab social system is not the problem. Only the Jews are the problem. In other words, for Weinstock and other anti-Zionists, “the Jews” are The Problem.

I should note that even Nathan Weinstock recognizes that the influx of Jewish immigrants brought about an economic boom in Palestine, to the benefit of the same Arab workers who had once slaved on the feudal estates.

[Start Quote From Nathan Weinstock]

“. . .the repercussions on the Arab economy of the inflow of capital into Palestine and the country’s economic expansion were felt in the long run. Agriculture advanced considerably during this period, when there were the beginnings of an evolution towards intensive farming. Arab orchards, which covered an area of 332,000 dunams in 1921, spread over 832,000 dunams in 1942. Cattle-breeding and poultry-rearing made rapid headway; there was an increase of the order of 60 per cent in 13 years. The orange-groves developed at great speed: 22,000 dunams of citrus fruit in 1922, 144,000 dunams in 1937. Vegetable production increased almost tenfold between 1920 and 1938. On the whole, however- and it was here that the immobilisme and the backwardness of the social structures really told – Arab agriculture continued to suffer from a shortage of capital.

On the other hand, in a period of economic boom and massive immigration, the scarcity of man-power and the intense tempo of construction favoured the taking on of Arab workers. Moreover, a growing number of Palestinian Arabs found jobs in the public services: 18,000 in 1930, more than 30,000 in 1945. One should add to this those employed by concessionary companies, concerns in which the majority of capital was Jewish but which were bound under their statutory provisions to take on a certain proportion of Arab workers.”

[End Quote From Nathan Weinstock]

Rapid growth of the Arab economy in Palestine resulted in significant part from the fact that the influx of Jewish immigrants created demand for the products of Arab industry. Weinstock states that “Jewish agriculture covered only 15 per cent of the calorie consumption of the urban Jewish population. Thus, for example, Jewish cereal production would not possibly have been sufficient to feed the Yishuv.” Weinstock raises this point in connection with his observation that the “compartmentalisation of the Palestinian economy, which became considerably accentuated after the 1929 [terrorist] disturbances [against Jewish civilians], was nevertheless in no way absolute.” That is to say, the immigrant Jews were making up the deficit by buying from the Palestinian Arabs, which stimulated the economy, and accelerated the process of urbanization.

So the arrival of the Jews indirectly had the effect of getting some people laid off, but also had the effect of creating other sorts of jobs - and many of the latter were no longer part of a feudal economy. On this basis one could argue that the immigrant Jews brought about a net benefit to the Palestinian economy.

This argument *has* been made.

For example, in his History of Israel, Howard Sachar notes that the Peel Commission, which was established to study a partition plan for Palestine in 1937 (following the ‘Arab Revolt’ of 1936), produced a proposal that…

[Start Quote From Howard Sachar][2]

“…filled 404 pages, contained elaborate maps and statistical indices, and ranked as one of the major documents of British foreign policy. First summarizing the views expressed by Arabs and Jews, the report then detailed the accomplishments of the Jewish National Home, not the least of which was an economy vigorous enough to have stimulated a 50 percent growth of the Arab population since 1921. There was no question that Arabs, fellahin and landlords alike, were enjoying unprecedented affluence in Palestine. The Arab charge that Jews had obtained too large a proportion of the best soil could not be substantiated, for much of the citrus land originally had been sand or swamp…”

[End Quote From Howard Sachar]

If Arabs, “fellahin and landlords alike, were enjoying unprecedented affluence in Palestine” in 1937, then the net economic impact of Jewish immigration had been, in the long run, positive.

" How many Holocaust survivors do you read about blowing up buses in Germany?"

none, because the Third Reich got it's ass kicked, and they passed laws against it ever returning

1). The Palestinians aren't blowing up the Israeli Governmnet- they are blowing up the Israeli people.
2). Check out the book- "What We Knew"- The Jewish survivors could have chosen to strike out at the citizens of the Reich that did not protect them- that plundered their belongings- they did not.

I

previously I wrote

>>I bet you anything that if the Third Reich had not overreached globally and managed to stay in power, say 50+ years, and they denied equal rights to millions within their borders, oh, yeah, there'd be a whole bunch of jewish people sabatoging things and blowing things up, including the killing of "innocent" germans even who passively supported the evil regime

>>if that were the case, and Hitler's cronies were still in power there, and you lived there, would you still tell your child that BS about the sanctity of life? would you tell your sons and daughters to just sit there and take it? maybe you would, but somehow I seriously doubt it

I didn't ask you about retribution after the fact, after it was basically over. that comparison is only apt IF israelis ever decide to treat palestinians with equal rights, keep a bunch of their land anyway, and THEN the palestinians take it out on civilians tied to the thefts and oppression. while palestinians are STILL under occupation and oppression of israelis, that's comparing apples and oranges

"In fact, around 80 percent of the land in Israel is owned by the state through the Israel Land Authority."

This is very much like the condition of the area prior to the zionist invasion, when most of the land was public property available for agricultural use, much like the British commons prior to capitalism. Fact-twisting zionist bigots have distorted this into "Arabs didn't OWN the land there. It was just a howling uninhabited wilderness." Now that zionists themselves have established a similar policy, they're twisting it yet again to mean "isn't Israel wonderful!"

The whole thing is a stark example of repulsive lying bigots playing Orwellian silly-putty games with history.

By their own logic, this means 80% of Israel's land is up for grabs by any manic murdering horde of "G-d's chosen" anywhere on earth. Where's Genghis Khan when you really need him?

...this guy sure has a hard time coming up with arguments of his own. His long posting above is a very selective rip-off of an argument written by U of Penn assoc. prof. Francisco Gil-White and found here:

http://www.interdisciplines.org/terrorism/papers/1/20/printable/discussions/view/810

Gil-White's a real interesting guy. He has a very diverse complicated viewpoint, obviously a bright guy, but when it comes to Israel he's pro- to the point of being a nut (why else would "Scholar" quote him?). Here's a good sampler of Gil-White's pro- ravings

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/author.php?id=52

And here's what Gil-White's faculty mentor at U of Penn told him directly about the biggest piece featured in the site above:

'Numbers of balanced and informed colleagues think you are totally one-sided, and most particularly, willing to accept evidence of questionable reliability if on your side, but quite critical of opposing evidence, including eyewitness observation. You have convinced almost everyone at the Asch Center that when it comes to political issues, as opposed to your academic work, you behave more like a politician than an academic scientist...
You have a stridency and intolerance that is unbearable to most people, though you cloak it in the frame that you are the only scientist. Ian knows orders of magnitude more than you do about palestine, and thinks you are a biased observer...
I am astounded that you think you can be an expert on complex things outside of your field, and are indifferent to the observations of people on the scene...
You have a level of confidence about complex social phenomena that I have only seen in zealots of the political right and left. It doesn't ring right for an academic. Let's talk soon. I think you are on your way to committing academic suicide.'

Elsewhere Gil-White looks like a classic paranoid loon:

http://www.psych.upenn.edu/~fjgil/myversion.htm#5

All the usual pro-Israel suspects are cheering maniacally in this guy's corner and making a big football out of his travails as a pro-Israel nut dressed up in academic drag:

http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/1024

As for "Scholar's" selective hackery, it's taken from Gil-White's rebuttal to a ***MUST READ*** critique by Ian Pitchford:

Francisco Gil-White offers a version of Palestinian history that begins and ends with the character of the former Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, a man whose hatred of the Jews of Palestine is legendary, but who as “head of the biggest landowning clan in Palestine” (Johnson, 1983, p .481) found most of his victims amongst moderate Arabs. The Mufti sought allies wherever he could find them and was to be found in the company of people as diverse as Hitler, Himmler, Sukarno, Sihanouk, Archbishop Makarios, and Kwame Nkrumah. Both the Arab and Jewish elites were prepared to kill their own civilians in pursuit of their aims - 250 or more Jewish refugees were killed in the sinking of the SS Patria - an attack carried out in Haifa bay by the Haganah on November 28, 1940 (Gilbert, 1998, pp 105-109). It’s salutary to compare the facts of this event with the implausible reasons given subsequently for its justification. Unpalatable facts escape many conventional histories, but scholars should have the courage to face them.

With regard to Israel vs. Palestine I defer to the Israeli psychologist Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi of the University of Haifa for the appropriate historical context:

(quoting Millard, 1843, p. 348) “The land [Palestine] is at present inhabited by native Arabs, who till the soil and mainly people the towns and villages. The question arises, how are the inhabitants to be dispossessed of the land? Is a purchase contemplated? Who, or what power is to enforce such a purchase, and where would the present inhabitants emigrate to? Or is it contemplated that they are to be driven out by the sword? This, I am convinced, is the only means by which the land can be cleared of its present population. But in this case the native inhabitants would, of course, be driven back upon Arabia, which bends like a crescent round the south and east of the Holy Land. The present inhabitants would not thus be driven out without obstinacy and bloodshed, carrying with them at the same time, the most malignant inveteracy. From Arabia, aided by other tribes, they would sally from time to time, to ravage and lay waste the whole land.” (1993, p. 77)

Beit-Hallahmi argues

“What has been done to the Palestinians is so fantastic and stunning that many cannot conceive of it as real. Invasion, defeat, humiliation and expropriation followed like thunder after lightning. The natives have been robbed, deprived of their identity and history. They had their homeland pulled out from under them. They have the right to ask why this has befallen them. The answer is that they should not have been a part of the story and have no real relation to it. They were innocent bystanders, in the wrong place at the wrong time. Moreover, they have become invisible, hidden victims. The Palestinian majority became a minority because its members were passive, peaceful and disorganised, no match for Zionism. They have been rejected as superfluous, and defined as strangers in their own land.” (1993, p. 88)

But as Beit-Hallahmi concludes:

“Israelis seem to be haunted by a curse. It is the curse of the original sin against the native Arabs. How can Israel be discussed without recalling the dispossession and exclusion of non-Jews? This is the most basic fact about Israel, and no understanding of Israeli reality is possible without it. The original sin haunts and torments Israelis; it marks everything and taints everybody. Its memory poisons the blood and marks every moment of existence.

Can we speak of Israeli “collective responsibility” for the colonialist enterprise of Zionism? Are all Israelis responsible for this sin? People cannot be held responsible for a situation created long before they were born, and this is the case for most Israelis. They have been born into a colonialist structure which favors them over the class of non-Jews. They cannot be blamed for it. At the same time, a person may be held responsible for the continuation of a colonialist situation, once he or she is in a position to change things. Most Israelis today, born after 1950, cannot be held responsible for early Zionist injustices. They can, and should, be held responsible for the present reality of injustice, which is a direct sequel of early Zionist principles.

All Israelis have come to recognise Zionism’s original sin against the Palestinians. The terrible secret of the injustice is known to everybody, but cannot be openly faced. The awareness of the terrible injustice committed to create the state, and the pressure against discussing it openly, disfigure and warp any kind of moral discourse in Israel…

It seems that the only way Israel can have both a human and viable future is through reconciliation with the Palestinians. Peace may come only with a drastic change in Israeli self-image and a readiness to atone for the sins of colonialism. Only then will the war between Israel and Palestine end. Without such a radical change of heart, the war between Israel and the Arabs will extend indefinitely into the future. Continuing the present course, as is plainly evident from recent events, can only ensure perpetual bloodshed and untold suffering. (1993, pp. 216-218).

I commend Beit-Hallahmi’s analysis to the seminar as I continue to recall Europe’s monuments to the “disastrous consequences of the suppression of freedom, democracy and human rights”.

References

Beit-Hallahmi, B. (1993). Original sins: Reflections on the history of Zionism and Israel. New York, NY: Olive Branch Press.

Gilbert, M. (1998). Israel: A history. London: Black Swan Books.

Johnson, P. (1991). A history of the modern world: From 1917 to the 1990s (Revised ed.). London: Weidenfeld and Nicolson.

Millard, D. (1843). A journal of travels in Egypt, Arabia Petras, and the Holy Land During 1841-2. Rochester, NY: Erasmus Shepard.

This last book here is Tia's worst nightmare. I'm definitely hunting this one down

Ian Pitchford is the guy Gil-White's faculty mentor referred to when he said: "Ian knows orders of magnitude more than you do about palestine, and thinks you are a biased observer..."

If any of you had ever spent any time out of this country, you might realize that in the majority of the nations of the world, land is held in a unfamiliar manners (Non- citizens cannot own land, non- natives cannot own land- land is held by quasi-governmental agencies... 99 year leasses are the way to go...)

You are looking at this issue with your American colored glasses on.

BTW ,somewhere in the deep recesses of my memory, I remember reading that the Greek Orthodox Church was the largest landholder in Jerusalem.