top
From the Open-Publishing Calendar
From the Open-Publishing Newswire
Indybay Feature
Related Categories: U.S. | Government & Elections
VIDEO: Down the Memory Hole: Carl Cameron's TV story about 9-11 Israeli Spy Ring in U.S.
by OUTFOXER
Friday Apr 15th, 2005 4:55 PM
First it was poor journalism for FOX to entirely purge the story from their websites. Then it was found they even purged it from THEIR OFFICIAL ARCHIVES. Something interesting worth looking at in these videos, I say.

Next, FOX has even threatened other areas on the internet, like the non-profit website whatreallyhappened.com, to remove it!

I suggest you populate this all over the internet because it shows that rogue Israelis working with U.S. traitors did 9-11 instead of "Arabs."

"...far more telling is the admission made by a US Official (in part one) quoted in the Fox News report that hard evidence exists linking 9/11 not to Arab Muslims, but to some of the 200+ Israeli spies arrested both before and after 9/11, however, this Israeli=911 evidence had been CLASSIFIED.
related link:

Prior to 9/11, the FBI had discovered the presence of a massive spy ring inside the United States run by the government of Israel. This seems a harsh gratitude from a nation which obtains 10% of its annual budget from the American taxpayer, $3+ billion a year. Over the years, American taxpayers have been required to send Israel more than four times what the US spent to go to the moon.
What Israel has done in return was to set up government subsidized telecommunications companies which operate here in the United States. One of these companies is Amdocs, which provides billing and directory assistance for 90% of the phone companies in the USA. Amdocs' main computer center for billing is actually in Israel and allows those with access to do what intelligence agencies call "traffic analysis"; a picture of someone's activities based on a pattern of who they are calling and when. Another Israeli telecom company is Comverse Infosys, which subcontracts the installation of the automatic tapping equipment now built into every phone system in America. Comverse maintains its own connections to all this phone tapping equipment, insisting that it is for maintenance purposes only. However, Converse has been named as the most likely source for leaked information regarding telephone calls by law enforcement that derailed several investigations into not only espionage, but drug running as well. Yet another Israeli telecom company is Odigo, which provides the core message passing system for all the "Instant Message" services. Two hours before the attacks on the World Trade Towers, Odigo employees received a warning. Odigo has an office 2 blocks from the former location of the World Trade Towers. "I think there is very compelling evidence that at least some of the terrorists were assisted not just in financing -- although that was part of it -- by a sovereign foreign government... It will become public at some point when it's turned over to the archives, but that's 20 or 30 years from now."

-- Senator Graham as quoted in Senator: At Least One Foreign Country Assisted the 9/11 Terrorists
Let us be clear here. There is nothing benign about Israel spying on the United States. When Jonathan Pollard stole our nuclear secrets (which your taxes paid to develop) and sent them to Israel, Israel did not hesitate to trade those secrets to the USSR in exchange for increased emigration quotas.

The implication of these facts is that the billions of our tax dollars sent to Israel (while women and children sleep in America's alleys and eat out of trash bins) have bought and paid for a monstrous phone tracking and phone tapping system that can eavesdrop on almost any phone call in America. Even the White House phones were open to such tapping by listening in on the other end outside the White House itself.

This actually happened. The Ken Starr report on Whitewater describes how Bill Clinton informed Monica Lewinsky that their phone sex conversations had been recorded. At the same time, Clinton ordered the FBI to cease the hunt for an Israeli mole known to be operating inside the White House itself!

So here we have a foreign nation able to listen in on most phones at will, using taps that cannot be found because they are built into the phone system itself, and willing to use the information gleaned from those calls to blackmail Americans into any desired course of action. This may well be what Ariel Sharon meant when he stated that the Jewish people control America.

That the information gleaned from these phone taps is being used to coerce the behavior of key individuals in the US Government and media is illustrated by the manner in which the government and the media have handled this scandal of the largest spy ring ever uncovered inside the United States, and of phone taps on all of our phones. They are downplaying it. Actually, burying it is a better word.

Fox News, alone of all the media, actually ran the story as a four part broadcast, and put the story up on its web site.

Then, without explanation, Fox News erased the story from their web site and have never mentioned it again. CNN followed by "Orwellizing" their report of the two hour advance warning of the WTC attacks sent to Odigo employees. But far more telling is the admission made by a US Official in part one of the Fox News report that hard evidence existed linking the events of 9/11 not to Arab Muslims, but to some of the more than 200 Israeli spies arrested both before and after 9/11, but that this evidence had been CLASSIFIED.

"Investigators within the DEA, INS and FBI have all told Fox News that to pursue or even suggest Israeli spying ... is considered career suicide."

-- Carl Cameron, as quoted in The Spies Who Came In From The Art Sale

Since then, any and all mention of the Israeli spy ring and phone tapping scandal has resulted in a barrage of shrill screams of "hate" and "anti-Semite", two well worn and frankly over used devices to try to silence discussion on any topic unfavorable to the nation which owns the spy ring in question.

The story of the uncovering of the largest spy ring ever discovered inside the United States should be the story of the century, if indeed the US media is looking out for the best interests of the American people.

That this spy ring helped drug smugglers evade investigators should be a major scandal, if indeed the US media is looking out for the best interests of the American people. That the spy ring includes companies able to track and tap into any phone in America, including the White House, should be a cause celebre', if indeed the US media is looking out for the best interests of the American people.

But they are not. The media is trying to bury this story. They are spiking it, erasing it from their web sites in a chilling real-life Orwellian rewriting of history.

The actions of the US media are those of people trying to protect this spy ring and those that the spy ring worked for. "While I agree with you, if I say anything about US geopolitical interests with Israel, I might as well clean off my desk."
-- Unnamed reporter as quoted in American Media Censorship and Israel

The actions of the US media are those of traitors to the American people.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/spyring.html
§15 MB
by OUTFOXER Friday Apr 15th, 2005 4:55 PM
part 2
§12 MB
by OUTFOXER Friday Apr 15th, 2005 4:55 PM
part 3
by more
Friday Apr 15th, 2005 5:03 PM
.
by Critical Thinker
Saturday Apr 16th, 2005 5:35 AM
Time's up; you've had your several minutes of fun. No matter how many times you try to push the tripe of a 9/11 related Israeli spy ring, it doesn't become any more true than a lie.
by Zionists never sleep
Saturday Apr 16th, 2005 11:42 AM
No doubt Critical Thinker is employed by the Israeli government one way or another. Do a google search on the word "sayanim" and see what I mean.
by watch it
Saturday Apr 16th, 2005 4:03 PM
"...far more telling is the admission made by a US Official (in part one) quoted in the Fox News report that hard evidence exists linking 9/11 not to Arab Muslims, but to some of the 200+ Israeli spies arrested both before and after 9/11, however, this Israeli=911 evidence had been CLASSIFIED."
by Top Secret Classified Info
Saturday Apr 16th, 2005 4:12 PM
I also heard , from undisclosed Arab sources, that Israel also caused the Tsunami in December...200 Israeli agents were found at the bottom of the sea (both BEFORE and AFTER the Tsunami), doing something with a new secret Jewish weapon that messes with Moslem plate tectonics and they used Einstein's (another ZIONIST Secret Agent) wave theory, but the information is CLASSIFIED, so don't tell anyone you heard it from me!
The Bush administration lied to us and sent Bush Senior and Clinton to mae sure things were covered up!
by dave
(raggs [at] hotmail.com) Saturday Apr 16th, 2005 4:46 PM
I would like to make my own mind up about this story but the video files no longer (as predicted by the "anti-semites") download.
by me
Saturday Apr 16th, 2005 10:44 PM
they download fine for me.

by 9-11 researcher
Saturday Apr 16th, 2005 11:09 PM
about Zionist complicity: Zim International vacates WTCs 15.Apr.2005 14:34
add it in link

Another point that has slipped off the collective 'map' of 9-11 is that the shipper/trader organization, Zim International, broke its lease in the days before 9-11. It vacated rather quickly.

What is interesting about Zim International is that it is a corporation half owned by the Israeli Government.

Another point that is interesting is that despite the cover being "rent was high," why loose $40,000 right then and there for breaking your lease? And is money really all that important when you are half owned by a subsidy-based state like the State of Israel?

And as far as I can read, there is nothing "inflaming" in the original post except THE TRUTH.


EIGHT OTHER ZIONIST/MOSSAD SIGNS OF THEIR IMPLEMENTATION OF STRIKES OF 9-11


just grouping the posts: more here:

1. ISRAELIS were 9-11 short sale stock buyers, betting on WTC terror strikes, story killed...
00:40 Apr-11 (19 comments)
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/04/315296.shtml

2. Israel Honors Lavon Affair Terrorists Who Attacked U.S. in '54, attempted to blame "Arabs"
21:20 Apr-03 (2 comments)
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/04/314824.shtml

3. 9-11 False Flag Operation
author: Vicky
Link to a video This is a must see video.
"9/11 is an _Expression of a Deep and Abiding Crisis in the Capitalist
World Order: 9/11 a CIA- MOSSAD False Flag Operation," by Ralph Schoenman
911 PEOPLE'S INQUIRY SF, 2004, http://www.globalresearch.ca 18 February 2005
The URL of this article is:
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/SCH502A.html CLICK TO VIEW VIDEO
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/02/312329.shtml

4. newswire article reposts united states 11.Feb.2005 18:39
9.11 investigation
DID ISRAEL ATTACK THE UNITED STATES WITH CHERTOFF'S AID?
author: Phillip Yardley
It is a little known, but historical fact that Israel has attacked the United States several times. Yet, we now know that our New Homeland Security Chief helped Israel to do so.
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/02/310503.shtml

5. newswire article coverage united states 11.Feb.2005 18:24
9.11 investigation
NEW HOMELAND SECURITY CHIEF IN ALLIANCE WITH 9-11 TERRORIST
author: Dr. David Duke
There is hard, factual evidence that Michael Chertoff, the new Homeland Security Chief, has ties with the financiers of 9-11.
As incredible as this news may seem, it has now been revealed that the nominee of President Bush for the new Secretary of Homeland Security, Michael Chertoff, has ties with a man suspected of financing the 911 attacks, Dr. Magdy Elamir. There is also convincing evidence that Chertoff as head of the Criminal Division of the U.S. Justice Department shielded this financier of 911 from prosecution in a terrorist case.
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/02/310501.shtml

6. newswire article reposts united states 11.Dec.2004 05:05
9.11 investigation
Silverstein admits PRE-RIGGING WTC7 to "pull it" on 9-11; & 1 BLOCK OVER,collects insur.?!
author: pink elephant in the room watch
Price of false cover story on 9-11 getting bigger and bigger...as it frays thinner and thinner.
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/12/305694.shtml

7. newswire article announcements global 10.Nov.2004 06:43
9.11 investigation | media criticism | police / legal
Censored Fox News series available: MOSSAD trails/helps[?] false flag terrorists of 9-11
author: repost
Fox News Series On Israeli Spying NOW AVAILABLE INSTEAD OF ORIGINALLY CENSORED AFTER 9-11-01.
To rewrite history, the 4 part series that aired in December 2001 was even removed from Fox News so-called archives!
However, the documentary is still available from another source, below:
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/11/302926.shtml
and
FASCINATING THAT FOX NEWS EVEN HAD THIS WEBSITE REMOVE CARL CAMERON'S STORY, EH?
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/spyring.html

8. and #8, The Zim International issue


---

and three more makes 11 points just in this thread, for Zionist complicity:

1. "Odigo, like many Israeli software companies, is based and has its Research and Development (R&D) center in Herzliya, Israel, the small town north of Tel Aviv, which happens to be where Mossad's headquarters are located."

2. and RICHARD LAUDER: "[The cosmetics magnate Ronald S. Lauder], president of the Jewish National Fund and former chairman of New York Governor George Pataki's Commission on Privatization, is the key individual who pushed the privatization of the WTC and former Stewart Air Force Base, where the flight paths of the two planes that hit the twin towers oddly converged [in upstate New York before finding their way to the two different Towers]. [Thus it is presumed] Ronald Lauder played a significant, albeit unreported, role in the preparation for 9/11."

3. And was Ptech a Mossad cut-out company? "Oussama Ziade, a Lebanese Muslim immigrant who came to the U.S. in 1985, founded Ptech in 1994. But the company's original manager of marketing and information systems was Michael S. Goff, whose PR firm, Goff Communications, currently represents Guardium, a Mossad-linked software company. And Goff comes from a well-to-do line of Jewish Masons who have belonged to Worcester's Commonwealth Lodge 600 of B'nai Brith for decades. So, why would a recently graduated Juris Doctor in Law leave a promising law career to join forces with a Lebanese Muslim's upstart company sponsored with dodgy funders in Saudi Arabia?"


Mossad - The Israeli Connection To 911; Odigo in Mossad "home town" in Israel, more
09:05 Apr-14 (8 comments)
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/04/315499.shtml

by Thoughtful Unbiased Commentator
Sunday Apr 17th, 2005 10:57 AM

I absolutely agree. The inevitable conclusions to be drawn from this video are clear. The international criminality of Israel is well known throughout the world. We need only look to United Nations resolutions since 1948:

87 consecutive resolutions against Israel. Is this an example of rabid anti-semitism or simply an international consensus about the facts? The vote goes something like this 165 against Israel, between 1 and 6 for Israel.

It seems that the rest of the world is painfully aware of the facts, except in the United States of America. Why is that???
by Critical Thinker
Sunday Apr 17th, 2005 11:22 AM
With the exception of a few gullable folks, no serious, level headed person will be swayed by your inner circle chit chat designed to make the video constitute proof of what you're adamant Israel was guilty of and thus assume a mantle of respectability.

That you look, and simplistically at that, at "the United Nations resolutions" and the proportion of UN member states having voted in their favor as unassailable proof for Israel's "well known" "international criminality" "throughout the world" shows you (plural) for the profoundly biased simpleton that you are.

You may delude yourself antisemitism has played no role or has never been a factor in the UN's treatment of Israel since 1948, but others don't shrink from recognizing this reality.

Your anti-Israel attitude has won the day in the UN -- so far. But wait for the era post Saudi oil production (at some point the oil reserves will have been exhausted),-- times might be a changin'.
Heaven forfeit she would utter these words about any Arab state or political entity. Her anti-Jewish hatred (masked for the moment being) has long deprived her wee mind its ability to realize in realtime what derogatory tripe she spouts.
by Disgundeld Observer
Sunday Apr 17th, 2005 4:19 PM
I challenge anyone who claims the Israeli espionage in the US is a 'vicious anti-semite lie', to actually show hard proof of it's fallacy. So far, there are heaps of circumstantial evidence proving it's real.

I wonder... when will the Israeli government be called 'anti-semitic' because of it's terrible history against Arabs & Muslims (most of which are semitic)?

When a 'white man' murders people or robs a bank, are inquiries into his involvement in the crimes purely 'anti-white' conspiracies? No. Not according to me, and i'm white.

Why is it, any time the Israeli govenment does any wrong, those who stand for justice against terrible acts are suddenly tagged as 'anti-semitic'? Are we expected to worship the Israeli government as some sort of pure god-like manifestation when it coddles perversion, murder and hateful prejudice?

One day, Israel (like every other government) will reap due harvest.
by researcher
Sunday Apr 17th, 2005 4:31 PM
3. 9-11 False Flag Operation
author: Vicky
Link to a video This is a must see video.
"9/11 is an _Expression of a Deep and Abiding Crisis in the Capitalist
World Order: 9/11 a CIA- MOSSAD False Flag Operation," by Ralph Schoenman
911 PEOPLE'S INQUIRY SF, 2004, http://www.globalresearch.ca 18 February 2005
The URL of this article is:
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/SCH502A.html CLICK TO VIEW VIDEO
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/02/312329.shtml


Has lots of citations--and more historical evidence of Mossad false flag operations--for those interested in truth and justice instead of lies and spin. It's long, though every word is right on topic.

And I am glad that there are people out there who can still think and see distractions for what they are--despite being raised in a spin cycle all their lives.

For those who are pro-Israel (though I really dismiss all hotheaded comments above as troll comments), don't you see that removing the handful criminals is going to HELP Israel instead of harm it?

Do check out Ostrovsky's books on Mossad as well, which are mentioned in the video. It shows that there are still people fighting for a just democratic Israel instead of defending a fascist one.


by Critical Thinker
Sunday Apr 17th, 2005 4:54 PM
>>>"Truth's Challenge"<<<

Read: BSer's Challenge.


>>>"Disgundeld Observer"<<<

Read: Dismayed Lie Supporter.


>>>"I challenge anyone who claims the Israeli espionage in the US is a 'vicious anti-semite lie', to actually show hard proof of it's fallacy. So far, there are heaps of circumstantial evidence proving it's real."<<<

I don't see why heaps of garbage originating from racists regurgitating their ludicrous merchandise which you're now couching as circumstantial evidence warrant a thorough refutation.


>>>"I wonder... when will the Israeli government be called 'anti-semitic' because of it's terrible history against Arabs & Muslims (most of which are semitic)? When a 'white man' murders people or robs a bank, are inquiries into his involvement in the crimes purely 'anti-white' conspiracies? No. Not according to me, and i'm white."<<<

Yaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnn.......................
Yeah yeah, Arabs are Semites too (though the non-Arab Muslims aren't. You slipped there...), same old same old, blah blah blah. The lack of an etymological match between the terms "Semite" and "antisemitic" doesn't entitle you to designate anti-Arab sentiments as antisemitic.
Yaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn........................


>>>"Why is it, any time the Israeli govenment does any wrong, those who stand for justice against terrible acts are suddenly tagged as 'anti-semitic'?"<<<

Firstly, it's not always "suddenly". The suddenness is reserved for those critics who hadn't hitherto been known for displaying any antisemitism. Secondly, those pouncing on the Israeli committed wrongs usually ARE being antisemitic in their statements and behavior and their stance is rightly perceived as an non-just one. And they would never as much as raise a whimper of protest against Arab atrocities perpetuated against Jews.


>>>"Are we expected to worship the Israeli government as some sort of pure god-like manifestation when it coddles perversion, murder and hateful prejudice?"<<<

Are the more rational of us expected to join your mad racist cult masquerading as a bona fide pro-justice "movement" and let you pull the wool over our eyes with misleading characterizations and exaggerations?


>>>"One day, Israel (like every other government) will reap due harvest."<<<

OK. By now we can close our prayer books...
by Critical Thinker
Sunday Apr 17th, 2005 5:16 PM
what an odious & revulting racist like you is thinking. Your ever regurgitated "terrorist state" crap, among others, is hilariously amusing. You're a raving lunatic par excellence as your preceding tirade attests.

And you still get the bird.
(You Canadian know what that means? Don't know? Well here's another one you might figure out all by yourself:)

XXXOOOOOOOOOOO
by me
Sunday Apr 17th, 2005 7:39 PM
IF the low caliber of "Critical Thinker"'s discourse is all the current fascists of Israel can find to support them, then they are indeed doomed.

by Critical Thinker
Monday Apr 18th, 2005 1:05 PM
I, too, advise her to give the link http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com a long hard look.
by Angie
Monday Apr 18th, 2005 4:03 PM
Then kindly quote me with a reference to said comment.

I wrote:

>>>"That is the disgusting and familiar mindset rooted in the vile and evil terrorist state of Israel where the only people who matter are themselves, their self absorbed jewish selves, and where death is welcomed so as to heighten their sense of victomology, something they glory in".

CT quotes me as saying:

>>>("their self centered Jewish souls, perpetuating their sense of being victims")? Could it be you tacitly support her racist statement?

Now then, if I said what you quoted above, point me to it.

If you consider this a "racist" comment, I assume you and yours have redefined racist just as you have redefinied terrorism to suit your own narrow agenda.

There is an excellent article entitled Israeli Democracy by Michel Warschawski that will be of interest to anyone not bound by the chains of narrow mindedness.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=107&ItemID=6851
by Angie
Monday Apr 18th, 2005 4:21 PM
I wonder why you would suggest that, CT.

Did I miss anything or is there no mention of Israeli terrorism therein? If there is, then point me to it.

If this topic is avoided, then the children are not being told the truth. They are being lied to, and they are being brainwashed.
by Critical Thinker
Monday Apr 18th, 2005 4:27 PM
"Angie" is too proud a racist to even write in a manner that reflects a realization of the racist nature of her swipe. Not surprising.

I misquoted her, but that's the lesser problem here as matters stand. Through her genuine statement she still comes across as -- to borrow some of her favorite labels -- a vile and evil racist, among other things.

If anyone has redefined racism and terror to suit their excruciatingly narrowminded nutcase agenda, it is the rabid anti-Zionist side of which "Angie" is a member in excellent standing. The fact she is might be totally incapable of comprehending the extent of racism inherent in that statement doesn't mean most people shouldn't. I'd like to believe the saner anti-Zionists see through her and notice the racism that has claimed a spot within her mind.

I never argued that Israeli democracy is perfect. Yet no intellectual sleight of hand "Angie" and her like-minded lunatic fringe might pull will refute the fact Israel is the most democratic state in the Middle East.
by Critical Thinker
Monday Apr 18th, 2005 4:42 PM
You blather too much and too often about Israeli terrorism, a phenomenon which has barely existed throughout the decades, especially when compared to Arab terrorism which has drawn many of its spiritual underpinnings, including inspiration, from Nazism, a wicked spiritual legacy that relies in part on al-Husseini's eager cooperation with the Nazis, one through which that despicable man even inspired the Nazis with ideas of his own for extermination of Jews in certain locations, which he all but imposed on them.

If your stance ever gets to be much fairer and balanced, indicating better intentions toward and a much more enhanced concern for Israeli Jews rather than your severely imbalanced obsessed position in Palestinian Jihadis' favor (as well as Syria, Hizballah and Iran), then I'll be more open to discuss the Israeli terrorism topic with *you*. But not until.

The children need to be told the truth about both sides of the issue -- the Palestinian and Israeli, rather than your perverted version of the truth that paints the Israeli side as the only culprit while getting the Palestinian terrorists out scot-free. Yep, the kids are currently being lied to and indoctrinated by your kind.
It's ironic that you would call me racist when Israel is the most racist place on earth, and yet you vehemently defend it. Perhaps you are suggesting, and presumably you are, that there are two kinds of racism; that which is practised by Israel and that which is practised by the rest of the world.
by Joe
Monday Apr 18th, 2005 7:45 PM
Israel isn't "the most racist place on earth" or even close, Angie.

You get called a nazi, because your EXAGGERATIONS about Israel's wrongs and your NEGATIVE DISTORTIONS about Israel's positives are identical to what's done on neo-nazi and white supremecist websites.

You are not a true peace activist. You are a dishonest, bigoted fraud, like wendy campbell.
by Joe
Monday Apr 18th, 2005 7:52 PM
Also, it's funny that Angie the closet nazi yells "it's 2005 now" and then her very next paragraph rants about "Deir Yassin"

The anti-israel maniacs rant constantly about "Deir Yassin" so much that when I see it, I now automatically know that I'm talking to a fucking antisemitic moron and not someone who actually wants a brighter tomorrow for everyone on all sides.
by Angie
Monday Apr 18th, 2005 9:13 PM
Don't make yourself sound more like a bleeding idiot than you must, Joe.

Verbally harrassing me, and insulting me, and continuously attempting to vilify myself and my views will not work. I am not Wendy Campbell.

I shall continue to speak out as loudly and as clearly as I possibly can about Israel and its terrorism, racism, and utter mendacity.

I believe, as I have stated on countless occasions, that we are all created equal. That's what God said.

If you and yours profess that Israel is somehow more equal than the rest of the world, that Israel is somehow without sin, then you are talking to, and yelling at, the wrong person.

Thus, you can find someone else to slander or continue on in your current fashion of slandering myself. It means nothing to me. Nor does it mean anything to others of similar views who are verbally attacked by you and yours constantly.

If, and when, Israel admits to its atrocities in the Occupied Territories, makes reparation to the Palestinian peoples for the horrors they have lived through especially in the last four plus years, if it takes its illegal settlements, ALL of them, and gets back inside the Green Line, if it rebuilds the thousands of homes it has destroyed, if it ceases its land grabbing and returns the land it ethnically cleansed even in the last four plus years, it it becomes a democracy for all its people and treats all its people, regardless of race, religion, colour as equal, if it ceases the whining and moaning about 'poor us" when compared to the Palestinian people who live in abject poverty, thanks in large part to Israel, then I will look upon your beloved state as perhaps a bit more deserving of praise rather than disdain.

Until these things happen, and the possibility of same occurring is pretty close to zero, you are going to have to (a) ignore my posts here and elsewhere or (b) cough up independent documentation to prove without any doubt whatsoever that my views on this ridiculous conflict are incorrect.

Until then, sir, I have absolutely nothing further to add.
by Angie
Monday Apr 18th, 2005 10:35 PM
m_an_intellectual.jpg
Don't make yourself sound more like a bleeding idiot than you must, Joe.
by Sefarad
Monday Apr 18th, 2005 10:54 PM

So anyone who doesn't support Palestinian terrorism is idiot?
by Joe
Monday Apr 18th, 2005 11:47 PM
Angie said: I believe, as I have stated on countless occasions, that we are all created equal. That's what God said.

JOE RESPONDS: That's wonderful. I don't see anyone disputing or disagreeing with this concept.

Angie said: If you and yours profess that Israel is somehow more equal than the rest of the world, that Israel is somehow without sin, then you are talking to, and yelling at, the wrong person.

JOE RESPONDS: I did not say Israel is "more equal" (whatever that means) than the rest of the world.

I did not say that Israel is "without sin."

It's quite telling, folks, that Angie must MAKE THINGS UP and shoot those made-up things down.

ANGIE SAYS: (Insert some crap where she lists lots of anti-israel stuff yet intentionally fails to mention the nonstop palestinian terrorism against israel here)

JOE RESPONDS: Hah.

ANGIE SAYS: If israel becomes a democracy for all its people and treats all its people, regardless of race, religion, colour as equal

JOE RESPONDS: Israel is a refuge for the jewish people. Therefore, jewish people will probably have an advantage there. Just like japanese people have an advantage in japan, muslim pakistanis have an advantage in pakistan, hindu indians have an advantage in india, muslims have an advantage in saudi arabia, chinese have an advantage over non-chinese in china, koreans have an advantage over non-koreans in korea, muslims have an advantage over non-muslims in about 20 countries, arabs have an advantage over non-arabs in most arab countries, etc. etc. etc.

ANGIE SAYS: (Insert some whining about palestinians living in poverty "beacuse of israel" while ignoring that most of planet earth also "lives in poverty"

JOE SAYS: It's the terrorism against israel, stupid. The longer the war against israel goes on, the less land the israelis may be willing to hand over to the palis.
by Sefarad
Monday Apr 18th, 2005 11:58 PM

As far as Angie is concerned, Jews are less equal.
by Joe
Tuesday Apr 19th, 2005 12:12 AM
P.S. Angie, Israel is a Jewish state. It will favor Jewish people. If this angers you, perhaps you should take a break from indymedia and go study how Jews spent almost 2000 years being harrassed and killed around the world, UNTIL FINALLY, in the late 1800's, when it became obvious that for self-defense reasons they needed a homeland, set about establishing one.

If the concept of a jewish state angers you, YET the concept of muslim states does not, you're an antisemite.

If the concept of any state favoring one ethnicity or religion angers you, then call for them all to become "perfect democracies" and don't just single out the one place on earth that gave refuge to a people that spent 2000 years being murdered and discriminated against.

Either maintain the same standards towards israel as you would towards all the muslim states and other such places, or fuck off.

Have a great day!
by heard it before
Tuesday Apr 19th, 2005 4:35 AM
The Third Reich was an Aryan state. It favored Aryan people.

by Critical Thinker
Tuesday Apr 19th, 2005 5:43 AM
>>>"So was there any mention of Israeli terror in that site you recommended or not?"<<<

As Joe urged you, it'd be far better if you now go learn about the enthusiastic cooperation of your ideological kin, al-Husseini, with the Nazis. In a certain sense you might be staring yourself in the mirror reading the contents.


>>>"It's ironic that you would call me racist when Israel is the most racist place on earth,"<<<

Only a vicious malevolent racist like you would both perceive such an irony and make that statement about Israel which utterly lacks foundation. But then again (for the gazillionth time, you've never seen a problem with lying in a bold manner in your numerous desperate attempts to keep your ludicrous nutty arguments afloat.


>>>"It's ironic that you would call me racist when Israel is the most racist place on earth, and yet you vehemently defend it."<<<

Of course I defend it; it invariably deserves to be defended when a bigot like you attacks it. Your anti-Israel attacks invariably overlap assaults on truth.


>>>"Perhaps you are suggesting, and presumably you are, that there are two kinds of racism; that which is practised by Israel and that which is practised by the rest of the world."<<<

Only formerly intelligent, madly insane people whose minds have been twisted by their perpetual mal petulant racist psychosis like you would raise that kind of argument when I never came close to suggesting such a thing.
by Angie
Tuesday Apr 19th, 2005 11:19 AM
Poor Joe. Obviously can't even read yet. He is blathering on denying he ever said Israel was more equal and without sin. So what? Who ever professed he did say either? My comment, which he was kind enough to quote, said:

>>>"if you and yours profess that Israel is somehow more equal than the rest of the world, that Israel is somehow without sin" . . .

You say you didn't say that. Fine. End of issue. Yet you have to go on and attack myself with accusations of how I "must make things up and shoot those made-up things down".

Your response would have been more credible had you contained said response solely to the questioin I asked.

You go on to prattle about "some crap" - please don't dismiss history as "crap", Joe - and your response is "HAH". I thought, perhaps, for a moment you were rendered speechless. I was wrong. You prattle on erroneously.

Israel is not a "refuge" for jewish people, Joe. On the contrary it is (as was pointed out on more than one occasion by more than one person living in the "refuge"), nothing more than a haven for sadistic war criminals. If you care to pause long enough before leaping to your computer and ranting at me, you will admit that today jewish people are living and working around the world. They do not need or want a "refuge" in Israel.

You (plural) fail to grasp that in a real democracy everyone is treated with the same rights and freedoms.

In Israel even jews are discriminated against not to mention Israeli Arabs; in fact, it is documented, as an example, that non-jews are prohibited from purchasing state owned land, and they are discriminatd against in most areas. Not only that, but religious laws dictate the lifestyle of non-religious Israeli citizens. Additionally, over 30 percent of Israeli citizens do not enjoy civil much less human rights. These are a few glaring examples of racism and undemocraticism, and we are all aware of many others, such as jews only roads, the racist marriage laws, etc., etc.

Sadly the poverty in today's world is a glaring reflection on man's inability to share and share alike, and that is another topic altogether. Don't get me started on the world's poverty when so many have so much and billions more have virtually nothing.

Therefore it is all the more tragic when we look at the Palestinian people and what Israeli occupation has done to them. It is horrific enough that drought, famine, natural disasters create poverty and devastation and not just in third world countries. That poverty is enforced upon a people by the occupier is criminal.

A war against Israel? Is that what you think this is? How interesting, and how convenient and how utterly false. Blame the victim for the crime. It's not a new tactic, but it is just as odious today as it was since time began. As long as Israel, land grabbing state that it is and always has been, wants to gather as much land as it possibly can, there will be a war against the Palestiinian people.

Israel does have a land fixation, doesn't it, Joe? And it doesn't care, nor did it ever care, what horror it inflicts on others to attain it. Go back to 1947 and move forward, why don't you? And, of course, it's always been the other party's fault. Hell, not!

It's well executed and brutally carried out, this land theft by Israel. No doubt the war criminals in charge of the country are (and have been) clapping their hands with glee as they latch on to yet another huge chunk of the West Bank, as they demolish more and more of the villages in Gaza, as more and more Palestinian people are left homeless with nothing at all. It's happening every day. You can attempt to side track the issue. It won't work. Not any more.

Sefarad, don't bother addressing comments to me. As I pointed out a few days ago, I really have nothing to say to you
because attempting a discourse with you is a total waste of my time and energy. Your mind is a closed trap, and all you are capable of doing, or at least all you are capable of doing on this board, is echo non-comments of the brainwashed variety.

Joe has a "P.S." Wow! Let's see what he's added, shall we?

I don't give a damn one way or the other if the jews have a jewish state. It has never been an issue with me, nor do I plan on having you make it an issue for me. The existence of Isarel is not the problem. It is the existence of war criminals who are running the country and in the process not only bringing evil to the Palesetinian people in particular and to the region in general, but to the people who live in Israel, itself.

You can call me anti semitic twenty four hours a day. It means nothing in my life. When the peoples of the world, all of the peoples of the world, are protected against hate speech, then I'll rejoice. I don't hear you yelling "racist" or other applicable terminology when an Israeli rabbi calls the Arab people "lice", "crocodiles", and on and on and on.

Ever hear any of those comments before?

a) . "We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

b) "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"

c) "We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'" Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

d) "We Jews, we are the destroyers and will remain the destroyers. Nothing you can do will meet our demands and needs. We will forever destroy because we want a world of our own." (You Gentiles, by Jewish Author Maurice Samuels, p. 155).

e) "We will have a world government whether you like it or not. The only question is whether that government will be achieved by conquest or consent." (Jewish Banker Paul Warburg, February 17, 1950, as he testified before the U.S. Senate).

f) "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly." Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine, Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.

And his vision of doing just that has continued ever since, has it not?

And just in February 2003 we have this little gem (not!)

(g) Jew Isaac Kohn of Israel National News illustrates the brutal depth of Jewish hatred of and bloodlust for any person or nation that crosses the Jewish agenda in any way, in a rabid attack on Belgium for daring to suggest Prime Minister of Israel Ariel "The Butcher of Beiruit" Sharon may be held to the same standards as other leaders for his war crimes: Belgium, simply, is an "unpretentious, hypocritical slagheap of bigotry surrounded by a thick halo of transparent anti-Semitism." The Belgium court's approval of possible war crimes charges against Ariel Sharon is a "modern blood libel" and requires Jewish retaliation against the Belgians, a "cynical" nation of "bigots." "Belgium, beware! The next head in the guillotine may be yours." And the executioners of the Belgian subhumans will be Jews

It is easy to see where you (plural) learn so much hatred of anyone with a differing view, Joe, and the few items I reported above is but the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

Or you could read the hateful "Israel's Growing Cancer" found at:
http://www.masada2000.org/cancerwithin.html

With a history of promoting hatred in this fashion, the idea of you and Israeli supporters calling anyone anti semitic, racist, or bigoted is without an ounce of crediblity.

Your vulgarity is duly noted and expected. We've seen it before, heard it before, and will no doubt continue to see/hear it.

Critical Thinker has spent a good part of the past two years uttering such niceties (hehe) as "bigoted stupidity", vicous manovelent racist" and much more besides. He is labouring under the absurd impression that I care tiddly what he and his pals utter on these discussion boards.

He, like his friends here, the moment they read of anyone pointing out the errors of Israel, it's open verbal warfare. First there's the name calling, right CT? Then there's the character assassination, vilification, even death threats.

And after two years you have failed to see the obvious. I don't give a damn, nor did I ever give a damn, or will I ever give a damn about what you and your ilk have to say about me. The truth speaks for itself, and it's amusing to see you and yours falling all over yourselves in lashing out at myself and others not just here but world wide because we are not falling for the propaganda Israel wants us to swallow .

If anyone needs to learn anything about this so called "war", I suggest you and yours learn to use the brain, if any, God gave you to think for yourselves and stop echoing the same old crap we hear daily.

It is also interesting to note that while you (plural) are so eager to brand everyone who is opposed to the zionist vision "Nazis", you forget that comparisons between the way in which Nazi Germany treated jews and the way Israel is treating Palestinians is just a little too close for comfort. So get off the fixation of branding people Nazis, bigots, racists, anti semites until you have had the opportunity to look more closely at who and what you are yourself.

>>>Only a vicious malevolent racist like you would both perceive such an irony and make that statement about Israel which utterly lacks foundation.

So name one, why don't you? You name a country, now that South Africa's apartheid has been dismantled, who is as racist as Israel. Lacks foundation? The facts speak for themselves, but then you wouldn't recognize a fact unless you were knocked over by one.

>>>But then again (for the gazillionth time, you've never seen a problem with lying in a bold manner in your numerous desperate attempts to keep your ludicrous nutty arguments afloat.

There he goes again, dear people, accusing me of lying, and not only lying, but lying in "a bold manner". Hehehe.

Quite frankly, CT, you can defend what you like. I care absolutely zero what you're defending. And I shall defend what I wish to defend without interference from you and your ilk. Calling me a "bigot" and all the rest of it is meaningless because, you see, you and yours have taken such words as "bigot" and "racist" and turned them into an art form.

Oh, and don't preach to me about twistiing the "truth", and your entertaining comment "perpetual mal petulant racist psychosis" would be best suited closer to home, don't you think?
by Sefarad
Tuesday Apr 19th, 2005 11:26 AM

Indeed it is not a safe heaven, the reason being that Israel is being attacked by terrorists who want to wipe the Jews and Christians out of the earth.

It is shameful that there are people supporting those terrorists.
by Sefarad
Tuesday Apr 19th, 2005 11:29 AM
Pipes: "The Hell of Israel Is Better than the Paradise of Arafat"
http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/04/1733611_comment.php#1733805
by Sefarad
Tuesday Apr 19th, 2005 11:35 AM
Angie:

"that non-jews are prohibited from purchasing state owned land,"


While often repeated, the assertion that Arabs cannot obtain land in Israel is based on misconception, error and outright invention. In fact, most of the land in Israel is government-owned, and it is equally available to all Israelis, whether Jewish or Arab.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_israel_land.php
by Critical Thinker
Tuesday Apr 19th, 2005 1:43 PM
>>>"Israel is not a "refuge" for jewish people"<<<

That Jews having felt persecuted or severely threatened living in other states have voluntarily immigrated or asked to be brought to Israel at one point or another literally validates Joe's assertion that Israel is a "refuge" for Jewish people. You twist his words into the contortion that suits your deranged agenda, deliberately ignoring the simple meaning of a simple English sentence, behavior all the more laughable in light of your earlier and equally funny pummeling of Sefarad for your deliberate failure to read her saying about Hitler's children figuratively instead of literally.


>>>"On the contrary it is (as was pointed out on more than one occasion by more than one person living in the "refuge"), nothing more than a haven for sadistic war criminals."<<<

Poor you, you must be sniveling due to the Belgians' failure to prosecute Sharon in their country. Color people outside your deranged circle of cohorts unimpressed.


>>>"If you care to pause long enough before leaping to your computer and ranting at me, you will admit that today jewish people are living and working around the world. They do not need or want a "refuge" in Israel."<<<

That doesn't contradict Joe's statement, poor thing. And you're ignoring the article by American Jew Zack Lieberberg published here a while ago wherein he said he now increasingly sees his future in Israel due to the increasing power and scope of fundamentalist Islamic hate crimes in the US. This Jew had previously immigrated to the US from the USSR due to anti-Jewish sentiment he couldn't stand anymore.
You would never admit it, but the facts aren't entirely aligned along your views.


>>>"You (plural) fail to grasp that in a real democracy everyone is treated with the same rights and freedoms. In Israel even jews are discriminated against not to mention Israeli Arabs; in fact, it is documented, as an example, that non-jews are prohibited from purchasing state owned land"<<<

The problem is you constantly ramble on and on about the flaws in Israeli life while completely ignoring the faults of the Arab regimes surrounding it. This lopsided attitude betrays your bigotry.
And again, you're repeating your oft told albeit corny anti-Zionist lie that only non-Jews cannot purchase state land, even though this prohibition encompasses Jews and non-Jews alike. Public land only gets leased in Israel.


>>>"Not only that, but religious laws dictate the lifestyle of non-religious Israeli citizens. Additionally, over 30 percent of Israeli citizens do not enjoy civil much less human rights."<<<

You mean so-called illegal workers, imported prostitutes and imprisoned people who tried to illegally sneak into the country through one of Israel's borders?
I can say there's been a slight yet noticeable improvement the human rights profile of the first category of downtrodden.


>>>"These are a few glaring examples of racism and undemocraticism, and we are all aware of many others, such as jews only roads, the racist marriage laws, etc., etc."<<<

You won't make your "jews only roads" lie stick any more or come true by repeating it ad nauseum as though it was never debunked. Your defiant repetition of lies only proves Joe right for having compared you to Wendy Campbell by characterizing you as dishonest and a fraud.


>>>"Sadly the poverty in today's world is a glaring reflection on man's inability to share and share alike, and that is another topic altogether. Don't get me started on the world's poverty when so many have so much and billions more have virtually nothing."<<<

The one problem is, you ignore the poverty which the Arab regimes, including the PA, have locked their subjects into, with no fault of Israel whatsoever. You constantly zoom in on all sorts of domestic Israeli problems, as if you really care about the fate of non-Arab civilians there, that's to say the Jews. Your intentions aren't bona fide as you'd have us believe.


>>>"Therefore it is all the more tragic when we look at the Palestinian people and what Israeli occupation has done to them."<<<

The real tragedy lies in what Arafat and his cronies have done to their subjects, including how they forced Israel to finally retake the Palestinian-populated areas in the disputed territories some 1.5 years after they could have gotten a state on 92%-97% of the disputed territories almost on a silver platter but were denied it because of Arafat's folly, which seems to be rivaled only by your (and nessie's JA's, etc) anti-Israeli bigoted fanaticism.


>>>"It is horrific enough that drought, famine, natural disasters create poverty and devastation and not just in third world countries. That poverty is enforced upon a people by the occupier is criminal."<<<

Leaving aside the question of how much the Palestinians are themselves an occupying force, and a potent case can be and has been made to that effect, the horrendous part about their tragedy is that they never seem to settle for anything and never seem to miss opportunities to perpetuate their plight, such as the threat written two days ago to unleash a new intifada.


>>>"A war against Israel? Is that what you think this is? How interesting, and how convenient and how utterly false. Blame the victim for the crime. It's not a new tactic, but it is just as odious today as it was since time began."<<<

You're viewing reality through the wrong lens. If an oversimplified picture of history is to be made, the Palestinians turn out to be the aggressors and the Israelis are their victims. What's odious is your eternal penchant for lying so that you could perpetually maintain your mendacious anti-Israel agenda.


>>>"As long as Israel, land grabbing state that it is and always has been, wants to gather as much land as it possibly can, there will be a war against the Palestiinian people. "<<<

"Land grabbing state"? Israel? Wanting to hoard as much land possible? Hehehehehe. Go look at your holy Canadian country for an example of such a country or nation, a rather artificial one at that.
Anyway, the Palestinians have been by and large the land grabbers in our conflict; much of this takeover began during the British Mandate period in which the British were keen on turning a blind eye to most of it.
Again, if we need to resort to an oversimplification, then to the extent there's a war raging on, it's only in one direction -- A Palestinian one against the Israelis.


>>>"Israel does have a land fixation, doesn't it, Joe? And it doesn't care, nor did it ever care, what horror it inflicts on others to attain it. Go back to 1947 and move forward, why don't you? And, of course, it's always been the other party's fault. Hell, not!"<<<

You speak of Israeli "land fixation", as if there isn't and never been a "Palestinian" fixation on land, most of which didn't belong to them? This is but to laugh, though your nearly totally mendacious notion of Israeli indifference to "horror it inflicts on others to attain" land -- all the more so since 1947 -- is a thousand fold more ludicrous.


>>>"It's well executed and brutally carried out, this land theft by Israel."<<<

There's no land theft for the purpose of acquiring territory for Israeli settlement, yet there's been "land theft" -- appropriation of lands that in all cases can be contested in the Israeli Supreme Court and at times is even reversed. Too bad your subjects of worship have terrorized Israelis so much that there arose a need to construct a security barrier that you're constantly bewailing due to your extreme concern for Palestinian property (legally owned or not) and zero concern for local Jews' security that gets jeopardized by the very people you always so baselessly try to depict as innocent puny victims of Nazi-like aggression.


>>>" No doubt the war criminals in charge of the country are (and have been) clapping their hands with glee as they latch on to yet another huge chunk of the West Bank, as they demolish more and more of the villages in Gaza, as more and more Palestinian people are left homeless with nothing at all. It's happening every day."<<<

The opening part of your sentence ending with the word "latch" gives away just how mentally ill and benighted you are and isn't representative of the facts on the ground.
Anyhow, the home demolitions ceased or almost completely stopped a few months ago, but you're not a person to be bothered with facts.
Furthermore, other than in the mind of you and your cohorts. there's nothing objectively wrong with Jewish purchase of land chunks in Judea-Samaria for settlement, nor is the reality of Jews claiming for themselves no-man's land there a legal.problem.


>>>"You can attempt to side track the issue. It won't work. Not any more."<<<

How many times have you said that inane sentence, yet zealously tried to simultaneously sidestep and duck the issue of Palestinian squatting?


>>>"I don't give a damn one way or the other if the jews have a jewish state. It has never been an issue with me, nor do I plan on having you make it an issue for me. The existence of Isarel is not the problem."<<<

So you're erratic, or perhaps have elevated rhetorical flip-flop to a form of pure art; that doesn't mean you can fool everyone on this point. You're lying through your teeth.


>>>"It is the existence of war criminals who are running the country and in the process not only bringing evil to the Palesetinian people in particular and to the region in general, but to the people who live in Israel, itself."<<<

You're taking issue with any Israeli leader who won't make the Israelis lie down and encourage the Palestinians and Arabs of neighboring states to run over them. You also don't genuinely care a whit about how Israeli Jews are being treated by their leaders.


>>>"You can call me anti semitic twenty four hours a day. It means nothing in my life. When the peoples of the world, all of the peoples of the world, are protected against hate speech, then I'll rejoice."<<<

But you've already rejoiced thousands of times over the past 2 years even though the Jews and Israeli ones in particular aren't protected against hate speech, including your own which you're all too happy to deal out, on the IMC sites and many others.


>>>" I don't hear you yelling "racist" or other applicable terminology when an Israeli rabbi calls the Arab people "lice", "crocodiles", and on and on and on."<<<

We've never heard you yelling the same when Muslim clergy were observed using such epithets against Jews on IMCs you've contributed to.


>>>"a) . "We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983."<<<

Ha! this is a forgery that's been debunked a million times already. But you don't care at all so you won't try to verify these facts, as you did partially did when you contacted your Uri Avneri God re Qana, spurred by my address then, let alone admit them.


>>>"b) "We must use "terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum""<<<

Another forgery attributing to another Israeli official a statement he never made.


>>>"d) "We Jews, we are the destroyers and will remain the destroyers. Nothing you can do will meet our demands and needs. We will forever destroy because we want a world of our own." (You Gentiles, by Jewish Author Maurice Samuels, p. 155)."<<<

Haven't checked this one out, but strikes me as yet another forgery or outright fabrication. Either that or it's the mad hateful mumbling of a antisemitic Jew such as your other favorite, Israel Shamir.


>>>"e) "We will have a world government whether you like it or not. The only question is whether that government will be achieved by conquest or consent." (Jewish Banker Paul Warburg, February 17, 1950, as he testified before the U.S. Senate)."<<<

If this is quote is genuine, it was obviously taken out of context by your neo-Nazi soul kindred to imply he was alluding to "international Jewry".


>>>"And just in February 2003 we have this little gem (not!)

(g) Jew Isaac Kohn of Israel National News illustrates the brutal depth of Jewish hatred of and bloodlust for any person or nation that crosses the Jewish agenda in any way,"<<<

"Jewish agenda"? It's utterly pathetic that you try to rail against the label of closet Nazi that Joe attached to you.


>>>" in a rabid attack on Belgium for daring to suggest Prime Minister of Israel Ariel "The Butcher of Beiruit" Sharon may be held to the same standards as other leaders for his war crimes:"<<<

How many other leaders of states actually guilty of war crimes were sought to stand trial in Belgium with even a quarter of the animus with which Sharon was? That's your twisted racist mind's "equal standards".

>>>"...Belgium, simply, is an "unpretentious, hypocritical slagheap of bigotry surrounded by a thick halo of transparent anti-Semitism." The Belgium court's approval of possible war crimes charges against Ariel Sharon is a "modern blood libel" and requires Jewish retaliation against the Belgians, a "cynical" nation of "bigots." "<<<

This was a very apt analysis. Props to Isaac Cohen! Belgium, with its horrific record of human rights violations in the Congo for which it never paid should have never tried to presume to become a bastion of ultimate justice.


>>>"It is easy to see where you (plural) learn so much hatred of anyone with a differing view, Joe, and the few items I reported above is but the tip of the proverbial iceberg."<<<

This is racist madness that's increasingly coming to typify you. Your "you" is presumably the Jews save NK and other lunatic fringe like Avneri and I. Shamir. Your proving yourself more and more clearly as a racist with every other post you make.


>>>"Or you could read the hateful "Israel's Growing Cancer" found at:
http://www.masada2000.org/cancerwithin.html

With a history of promoting hatred in this fashion, the idea of you and Israeli supporters calling anyone anti semitic, racist, or bigoted is without an ounce of crediblity."<<<

That you can't, or most likely do not want, to distinguish between the Kahanist minority who run Masada2000 and Zionists more moderate them just shows you for the pitiful simpleton that you are. You're not fooling the majority of the public in north America with your self-defeating generalizations. Most people know better and don't fall for them.


>>>"Critical Thinker has spent a good part of the past two years uttering such niceties (hehe) as "bigoted stupidity", vicous manovelent racist" and much more besides."<<<

You perfectly deserve them. But why would you ever complain? You're evidently proud of your racist venomous baggage.


>>>" He is labouring under the absurd impression that I care tiddly what he and his pals utter on these discussion boards. "<<<

Wishful thinking galore on your part.


>>>"He, like his friends here, the moment they read of anyone pointing out the errors of Israel, it's open verbal warfare."<<<

I'm not up at arms reading this dumb, false and overgeneralizing statement.


>>>"First there's the name calling, right CT? Then there's the character assassination, vilification, even death threats."<<<

Point us to even one death threat I ever made on you, you tormented passive-aggressive soul.
I relish the rest (character assassination, vilification) though.


>>>"And after two years you have failed to see the obvious. I don't give a damn, nor did I ever give a damn, or will I ever give a damn about what you and your ilk have to say about me."<<<

Laugh of the week... the degree of which it's transparently untrue is the clarity with which one can see objects out in orbit while standing on the moon and such.


>>>"The truth speaks for itself, and it's amusing to see you and yours falling all over yourselves in lashing out at myself and others not just here but world wide because we are not falling for the propaganda Israel wants us to swallow ."<<<

Truth is you're akin to a turbo machine manufacturing anti-Israel propaganda seasoned with antisemitism and couching your endeavor as an innocent "refusal to fall for the propaganda Israel wants us to swallow".


>>>"If anyone needs to learn anything about this so called "war", I suggest you and yours learn to use the brain, if any, God gave you to think for yourselves and stop echoing the same old crap we hear daily. "<<<

When you stop constantly churning out your irrational, erratic, hysterical and even racist dung, I'll stop sounding what you perceive as crap.


>>>"It is also interesting to note that while you (plural) are so eager to brand everyone who is opposed to the zionist vision "Nazis","<<<

You actually expect everybody to believe your deranged lie.


>>>"... you forget that comparisons between the way in which Nazi Germany treated jews and the way Israel is treating Palestinians is just a little too close for comfort."<<<

If by that you mean there's lots of merit to these comparisons, this registers as another demonstration of your bigoted nuttiness.


>>>"So get off the fixation of branding people Nazis, bigots, racists, anti semites until you have had the opportunity to look more closely at who and what you are yourself."<<<

I have no such fixation so I need not get off it. But I'll be damned if I shrink from hounding you and others for unfairly singling Israel out for different standards than you hold most other states worldwide, particularly Arab ones while insisting one way or the other that I'm a racist and unjustly accuse me and other Jews of suffering from all those paranoid or other mental afflictions you're so fond of repeating. Too bad yyou're too mucg of a spoiled brat that you expect to be treated with kid gloves or be let off the hook for your unwarranted nauseating broadsides.


CT: Only a vicious malevolent racist like you would both perceive such an irony and make that statement about Israel which utterly lacks foundation.

>>>"So name one, why don't you? You name a country, now that South Africa's apartheid has been dismantled, who is as racist as Israel."<<<

Many are more racist than Israel, only you don't want to face up to the truth. Examples: Israel's neigbiring countries, China, Sudan, Iran, Pakistan, Russia, Zaire, the Maghreb states.
The truth slaps you on the face regardless of your unwillingness to admit it.


>>>"Lacks foundation? The facts speak for themselves, but then you wouldn't recognize a fact unless you were knocked over by one."<<<

Too funny to comment on.


CT: But then again (for the gazillionth time), you've never seen a problem with lying in a bold manner in your numerous desperate attempts to keep your ludicrous nutty arguments afloat.

>>>"Quite frankly, CT, you can defend what you like. I care absolutely zero what you're defending."<<<

Nobody - noone -- believes you.


>>>"And I shall defend what I wish to defend without interference from you and your ilk."<<<

What about my constant interference? Or are you pretending it isn't happening?


>>>"Oh, and don't preach to me about twistiing the "truth","<<<

Thern I suggest you leave this site, because I won't spare you of preaching about how you mutilate the truth.

In the meantime, you'd do well to study the tight and eager cooperation between your spiritual patriarch al-Husseini and the Nazis whose anti-Jewish principles you seem to increasingly growing to embrace.
>>>That Jews having felt persecuted or severely threatened living in other states have voluntarily immigrated or asked to be brought to Israel at one point or another literally validates Joe's assertion that Israel is a "refuge" for Jewish people.

Actually I twisted zero. In 2001 there were some 6,155.000 jews living in the United States. Up to that point in time the total jewish population was increasing not decreasing.

In 2001 the total jewish population in Canada was 370,515.

Already we have more jewish people living in North America than we do in Israel. And this doesn't include the rest of the world. Doesn't seem like a mad rush to Israel now, does it, CT?

Well, if that doesn't take the cake and the platter too!! An American Jew apprehensive of the "increasing power and scope of dundamentalist Islamic hate crimes in the US". Well, well, well!!. I suppose out of the over 6,000,000 (or 7,000,000 maybe by now) he won't be missed, will he?

Let me state something once and for all. I am not aware of any Arab states pretending to be democracies. Israel is presenting itself to the world as a democracy. Suffice to state, and I will state it clearly in case you have a vision problem, if Israel wants to be seen as a democracy, then it has to act like one. A theocratic, nationalist, racist state can scarely be called a democracy even in the broadest sense. Now if you don't like that, sir, I suggest you take the matter up with someone who can perhaps change it.

In a response to Sefarad's two websites she mentioned above, I provided several, shall we say, more credible ones. You read the article in Haaretz that I posted there, and you will see the reaction of a recent High Court ruling with respect to land discrimination against Israeli Arabs. As I said before, I certainly would not wish to be a justice in Israel. So if you're accusing me of "lying", then I suggest you are accusing the Israel High Court of doing the same.

The world knows there are jews only roads, and the sane amongst us are sickened by such racism. Get moving, sir, and present the readers on this site with credible documentation that this is a fallacy. I, at least, provided links to this topic in another thread. Surely you are not suggesting I accept your word (hehe).

>>>Blah, blah, "gotten a state" blah, blah, "silver platter", blah, blah "anti Israeli bigoted fanatism".

Oh, we're back to the old myth about how Barak made the "generous offer", are we? Don't bring that piece of fiction up again, please!

Let me get this straight. You are now stating that the Palestinian Territories are being "occupied" by Palestinians? Interesting. I suppose you will soon come forward and say that Lebanon belongs to the terrorist state of Israel, that Egypt must be added, that Syria and Jordan will become suburbs? My God, is there no end to it? Is there no end to this twisted and warped mindset?

That's what we expect of you and your pals, CT. You never stick to the issue. You have to drag everyone else into your little spiel.

Ariel Sharon called this pathetic one-sided conflict a "war". And, of course, for Israel it is, with the guns, and tanks, and missiles, and bombs. With the number of Palestinians dead, the number of Palestinian homes destroyed, the number of Palestinian children dead, I'd say Israel is doing pretty much what it wishes, wouldn't you think? Certainly they killed at will in the past four plus years now, didn't they?

You can prattle all you want and try your common diversionary tactics, but you didn't explain Israel's fixation with land. The West Bank, the Golan Heights, Shebaa Farms, East Jerusalem. Need I go on?

Oh, so that's the it, eh? "Terrorized Israelis" need land to protect them? God forgive me if I give vent to a smothered gasp here. When one checks the terrorism that Israeli has unleashed on the virtually defenceless Palestinian people, the question becomes why haven't they invaded Tel Aviv, for instance? If taking someone's property is a defence for terorr, then the Palestinian people certainly ought to be building their own wall inside the Green Line don't you think? You really are too much, too much. How can you type all this nonsense with a straight face or do you really believe what you're saying?

Are you also saying that Isreal isn't being governed by a war criminal? Actually as someone said recently he is a certified war criminal. And we all know how he had his vision for a Greater Israel, don't we, CT, and all others before him, and he, just as the other Prime Ministers prior to, have been carrying out this little scheme quietly but nonetheless carrying it out. Don't think we're all blind. We're not.

The home demolitions were supposed to be terminated a few months ago. That is what we were told. However, that is seldom the case with Israel. Because just on 13 April two homes were demolished in East Jerusalem with further demolitions in Kfar Akab. Look it up.

Oh, and there is a "no man's land", eh? Much like the old Zioinist lie about "a land without people for a people without land". It doesn't get any more mendacious than that.

The Palestinian people are "squatting"? Gasp.

>>>You also don't genuinely care a whit about how Israeli
Jews are being treated by their leaders.

Actually it is highly possible that I care a hell of a lot more than you do. A lot of jews in today's Israel aren't exactly treated as equals or is that news?

The term anti semite and its derivatives is about to go the way of the Great Auk. The purpose of the word (and its derivatives) was a definitive purpose, one that meant something, one that was designed to protect jewish people. Today it is so common place, it is rolled out so often, it is used without justification so often that it is becoming a joke.

And the zionists ot the world are to blame. In an effort to stifle all criticism of Israel, it has branded the world as a whole, more or less, as being anti semitic. It is too ludicrous to dwell on. Intelligent academics, writers, world leaders, it doesn't matter. If they as much as lift a quizzical eye in Israel's direction (and, yes, I've said this many times before) out comes the anti semite label. Much like the boy who cried wolf.

Critical Thinker, you're amusing. You are, in fact, very amusing and predictable,.and you're also very sad.

Take this series of comments, for instance. NONE of them are mine. If you have a problem with the wording or anything else, I suggest you go attack the right person.

http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/temp/HistoryofOurWorld4.html

(g) Jew Isaac Kohn of Israel National News illustrates the brutal depth of Jewish hatred of and bloodlust for any person or nation that crosses the Jewish agenda in any way,"

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/print.php3?what=article&id=2001

>>>"Jewish agenda"? It's utterly pathetic that you try to rail against the label of closet Nazi that Joe attached to you.

Get a damn grip, why don't you? I did not say this. It is part of the article in question. God, how eager you are to leap to false conclusions. Use some self control for God's sakes, and if you can't, then keep quiet. If you can't say anything more truthful than a "closet Nazi", say nothing. You're simply making a complete fool of yourself. I don't give much of a damn either what "Joe" attaches to myself or anyone else. I trust I've made myself clear. The entire commentary was a direct quote taken from a letter sent to Belguim authorities by this fanatic.

>>>How many other leaders of states actually guilty of war crimes were sought to stand trial in Belgium with even a quarter of the animus with which Sharon was? That's your twisted racist mind's "equal standards".

Again, talk to the writer of the piece.

>>>This is racist madness that's increasingly coming to typify you".

Don't paint me with the same brush you use yourself, CT.
I am referring to you, meaning you, Joe, and all the others who come on these boards attacking myself and others who do not share your views. I haven't given the NK or anyone else a thought. Nor have I never mentioned them. You're confusing me with someone else, hmm? Don't do it. And classifying Uri Avnery and Israel Shamir as "lunatic frinige" is but to show us all yet again how devoid of any semblence of credibility you are.

>>>You perfectly deserve them. But why would you ever complain? You're evidently proud of your racist venomous baggage.

You don't get it, do you? You didn't get it at SF IMC, and you still don't get it. I don't give a tiny iota what you say to me, what you call me, what you accuse me of. Your opinion is of no consequence to me. In fact, the more you crucify me, the more you are proving what I'm saying about zionists and their vilification of anyone with a different viewpoint.

And how you love to jump to erroneous conclusions. When I wrote the comment below:

>>>"First there's the name calling, right CT? Then there's the character assassination, vilification, even death threats."<<<

I was talking generally. It is the norm, certainly, from where I sit. No one said you threatened me with death, or at least you didn't say it out loud on these boards. I really am beginning to believe you have no comprehension at all re what I'm saying.

Please! What next???? "you tormented passive-aggressive soul". At least it's different.

Oh, wait! What is this? Aha!

>>>Laugh of the week... the degree of which it's transparently untrue is the clarity with which one can see objects out in orbit while standing on the moon and such.

Hehehe. Gulp. Dear people, there's more.

>>>"Truth is you're akin to a turbo machine" . . .

And CT's being denying for a long time that he is not anti-angie. This sounds so much like him. Ever try becoming a stand up comedian?

>>>When you stop constantly churning out your irrational, erratic, hysterical and even racist dung, I'll stop sounding what you perceive as crap.

Not in my life time, sir. Not in my life time ever.

And then we have:

>>>"You actually expect everybody to believe your deranged lie".

A lie, you say? Deranged? Gasp!

>>>"If by that you mean there's lots of merit to these comparisons, this registers as another demonstration of your bigoted nuttiness".

Hey, don't beat me up. "Bigoted nuttiness" is a new one, though. Bear in mind, however, that I am not the one who has made comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany. I merely read about it. Since you, Joe, and Sefarad seem unable to submit a post without dragging Hitler, Nazis and so on into the mix, I thought I'd point out the realities to you.

>>>But I'll be damned if I shrink from hounding you and others for unfairly singling Israel out for different standards than you hold most other states worldwide, particularly Arab ones while insisting one way or the other that I'm a racist and unjustly accuse me and other Jews of suffering from all those paranoid or other mental afflictions you're so fond of repeating. Too bad yyou're too mucg of a spoiled brat that you expect to be treated with kid gloves or be let off the hook for your unwarranted nauseating broadsides.

Who dragged the word "racist" into this thread? Who is continuing to prattle about racists, bigots, Nazis? Why, you are, CT. You don't like it, do you? Yet you expect everyone else to ignore your accusations. Not a chance in hell of that happening, sir. Not a chance in hell.

Me a spoiled brat, you say? Now that is NEWS!!! I expect to be treated with kid gloves? Says who? My what? "Unwarranted nauseating broadsides"? Ahem. Please, God, let me get to the end of this without collapsing with merriment. And look at this!

>>>China, Sudan, Iran, Pakistan, Russia, Zaire, the Maghreb states. The truth slaps you on the face regardless of your unwillingness to admit it.

Oh, I didn't realize China had "Chinese roads" only. And, please, are you suggesting that Sudan is a democracy too?

>>>Too funny to comment on.

Ye'ah, I know what you mean. I'm close to hysterics myself. Again, ever contemplate stand up comedy?

>>>Nobody - noone -- believes you.

Make up your mind. Nobody? No one?

>>>What about my constant interference? Or are you pretending it isn't happening?

Is that what you call it? Actually I thought I was reading a script.

>>>Thern I suggest you leave this site, because I won't spare you of preaching about how you mutilate the truth.

Frankly, CT, when it comes to mutilatiing the truth, few does it better than your own self and pals. As for your suggestion to leave this site, I'm quite prepared to do that when I am ready. It may be tonight. It may be next year. I'll go when I'm ready, so don't push me. It is NOT your site, is it?

>>>In the meantime, you'd do well to study the tight and eager cooperation between your spiritual patriarch al-Husseini and the Nazis whose anti-Jewish principles you seem to increasingly growing to embrace.

Aaaaah, CT. You're really need to take that break you're urging me to take. Nothing you have stated here, including that last unwarranted attack, is close to being the truth. The people who know me are aware of who I am, and what I believe in. You don't. You're assuming, and you're wrong. However, it's a free world in most cases, so believe what you like.

Israel Shamir become a Christian a few years ago.

Suffice to say he is one of the most intelligent, insightful, and courageous people anywhere.
by Sefarad
Wednesday Apr 20th, 2005 6:31 AM


Why do you ignore that modern Israel was founded for it to be the Jews' country? You critizise Israel. Why don't you critizise Pakistan, which is a state founded for Muslims?

And even so

"LandOwnership

In the early part of the century, the Jewish National Fund was established by the World Zionist Congress to purchase land in Palestine for Jewish settlement. This land, and that acquired after Israel's War of Independence, was taken over by the government. Of the total area of Israel, 92 percent belongs to the State and is managed by the Land Management Authority. It is not for sale to anyone, Jew or Arab. The remaining 8 percent of the territory is privately owned. The Arab Waqf, for example, owns land that is for the express use and benefit of Muslim Arabs.


Government land can be leased by anyone, regardless of race, religion or sex. All Arab citizens of Israel are eligible to lease government land."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Human_Rights/human_rts_in_Israel.html

by Sefarad
Wednesday Apr 20th, 2005 7:02 AM

<<Actually I twisted zero. In 2001 there were some 6,155.000 jews living in the United States. Up to that point in time the total jewish population was increasing not decreasing.

In 2001 the total jewish population in Canada was 370,515. >>


Are you suggesting that the Israeli Jews leave Israel for US, Canada and the rest of the world?

<<Let me state something once and for all. I am not aware of any Arab states pretending to be democracies.>>


So it is OK for them to be tyrannies and you support it.


<< Israel is presenting itself to the world as a democracy. Suffice to state, and I will state it clearly in case you have a vision problem, if Israel wants to be seen as a democracy, then it has to act like one.>>

Israel is a democracy. But, alas, for you to consider Israel a democracy, it has to do what you want, that is to say, the Jews have to leave their country and move to others, the reason for it being that there are Muslim terrorists whose aim is to wipe the Jews out.

<<A theocratic, nationalist, racist state can scarely be called a democracy even in the broadest sense. Now if you don't like that, sir, I suggest you take the matter up with someone who can perhaps change it.>>

Israel is not a theocratic, etc. state. You can say what you want. But it is clear that your intention is to attack Israel just because you support those totalitarians who want to destroy it.

<<In a response to Sefarad's two websites she mentioned above, I provided several, shall we say, more credible ones. >>

I know the game. According to totalitarian ideology, only their sources are reliable.


<<You read the article in Haaretz that I posted there, and you will see the reaction of a recent High Court ruling with respect to land discrimination against Israeli Arabs. >>

Wasn't Israel a theocratic, non-democratic, etc. country? Why do you believe that article? Being Israel a theocratic dictartoship, there is not press freedom and so the newspapers have to release what the authorities order them,surely with some sinister purpose.

<<As I said before, I certainly would not wish to be a justice in Israel. So if you're accusing me of "lying", then I suggest you are accusing the Israel High Court of doing the same. >>

Neither would I wish to be a justice in Israel. From what you say, I bet those judges will be sent to prison and, who knows, perhaps given a death sentence.

by Critical Thinker
Wednesday Apr 20th, 2005 7:55 AM
irresponsible, dishonest, racist, crazed and childish she is. Let's roll!


>>>"It would appear that my commentary here is causing CT some concern"<<<

You're flattering yourself implying self praise you don't deserve.


CT: That Jews having felt persecuted or severely threatened living in other states have voluntarily immigrated or asked to be brought to Israel at one point or another literally validates Joe's assertion that Israel is a "refuge" for Jewish people.

>>>"Actually I twisted zero. Blah blah blah blah blah cluck cluck cluck....."<<<

She'll say anything to skirt around the specific point that she can't refute.


>>>"An American Jew apprehensive of the "increasing power and scope of dundamentalist Islamic hate crimes in the US". blah puke... I suppose out of the over 6,000,000 (or 7,000,000 maybe by now) he won't be missed, will he?"<<<

So you don't have any sympathy whatsoever with Zack's apprehensions as a Jew. I didn't expect otherwise from an anti-Jewish racist like you.
BTW, there's no universal agreement on that particular estimate of American Jewry. Some of the most recent scientific surveyors have put the total at lower than 6 million.


>>>"Let me state something once and for all. I am not aware of any Arab states pretending to be democracies. Israel is presenting itself to the world as a democracy."<<<

You're unaware because you're uninformed where you decided to be. At times I heard Egypt claim it's democratic; Arafat had claimed on a few occasions his Authority was democratic. The fact you've never managed to get wind of these proclamations isn't anybody's fault; your failure isn't an excuse to shrug off this issue now as if these statements were never made. If you do shake them off, you'll only further prove your negative credibility.


>>>"Suffice to state, and I will state it clearly in case you have a vision problem, if Israel wants to be seen as a democracy, then it has to act like one. A theocratic, nationalist, racist state can scarely be called a democracy even in the broadest sense. Now if you don't like that, sir, I suggest you take the matter up with someone who can perhaps change it."<<<

Israel isn't a theocratic racist state, no matter how often you repeat this crap. If you don't like to be labelled a racist lying fraud constantly engaging in wild hyperbole and making things up out of thin air, then at the very least shut up (assuming you cannot recalibrate your view of Israel and articulate what you *honestly* see it as.


>>>"In a response to Sefarad's two websites she mentioned above, I provided several, shall we say, more credible ones. You read the article in Haaretz that I posted there, and you will see the reaction of a recent High Court ruling with respect to land discrimination against Israeli Arabs. As I said before, I certainly blah blah blah"<<<

You're incredible references don't disprove my (and Sefarad's) contention. Reality remains reality regardless of how much you set out to lie about it.


>>>"The world knows there are jews only roads, and the sane amongst us are sickened by such racism."<<<

Hahahahaha. You and your nessie mentor (and other loonies) aren't "The world" nor "the sane amongst us". You're simply the lying individuals amongst us.


>>>"Get moving, sir, and present the readers on this site with credible documentation that this is a fallacy."<<<

I already have, and so has Becky Johnson and others. So get your fanny in motion and go search for the posts where she and I refuted your worn lie.


>>>"I, at least, provided links to this topic in another thread."<<<

Color me unimpressed with your failure to disprove that public land only gets leased to both Jews and non-Jews in Israel rather than sold.


>>>"Oh, we're back to the old myth about how Barak made the "generous offer", are we? Don't bring that piece of fiction up again, please! "<<<

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnn.............


>>>"Let me get this straight. You are now stating that the Palestinian Territories are being "occupied" by Palestinians? Interesting."<<<

Let me focus what I earlier said. I'm stating that those Arabs of the disputed territories -- and to your chagrin they're NOT "Palestinian Territories" -- now known as Palestinians whose ancestors migrated to these territories from other lands only to benefit from the improved infrastructure and life conditions preferable to what had been available in their native lands and were never registered as "legal immigrants" or didn't come as part of a "legal immigration" ~and had never come to Palestine from national motives nor perceived themselves as being part of a separate Palestinian nationality or people prior to mid 1967~ do not have a more valid claim as an indigenous or "original" or "native" population, let alone a more valid one on national grounds, in the disputed territories than the Jewish inhabitants who resided there till 1948 or those who've settled there since 1967.


>>>"I suppose you will soon come forward and say that Lebanon belongs to the terrorist state of Israel, that Egypt must be added, that Syria and Jordan will become suburbs? My God, is there no end to it? Is there no end to this twisted and warped mindset? That's what we expect of you and your pals, CT. You never stick to the issue. You have to drag everyone else into your little spiel. "<<<

No comment on sheer vomit.


>>>"With the number of Palestinians dead, the number of Palestinian homes destroyed, the number of Palestinian children dead, I'd say Israel is doing pretty much what it wishes, wouldn't you think? Certainly they killed at will in the past four plus years now, didn't they?"<<<

You're too much of a bloody racist to count all the provocations and aggression by your beloved Jihadi role models in the disputed territories who have wrought all the havoc they've wished and caused Israel to retaliate and try to protect its citizens and property from further death and destruction you would have much rather seen visited upon them and it. Of course you care nothing for, or even relish, the fate that met the Jewish fatalities and maimed at your buddies' hands.
All we see from you is the tired one-sided moaning about Palestinian misery.


>>>"You can prattle all you want and try your common diversionary tactics, but you didn't explain Israel's fixation with land. The West Bank, the Golan Heights, Shebaa Farms, East Jerusalem. Need I go on?"<<<

The only prattle here is your steadfast resolution to perpetually accuse Israel with an unjustified charge of land fixation. A charge that doesn't jive with Israeli offers at various twists and turns of the defunct Oslo process that was slaughtered by your fav terrorist idol, Arafat.


>>>"Oh, so that's the it, eh? "Terrorized Israelis" need land to protect them?"<<<

Huh???


>>>"God forgive me if I give vent to a smothered gasp here. When one checks the terrorism that Israeli has unleashed on the virtually defenceless Palestinian people, the question becomes why haven't they invaded Tel Aviv, for instance?"<<<

Again, no comment on sheer vomit.


>>>"If taking someone's property is a defence for terorr, then the Palestinian people certainly ought to be building their own wall inside the Green Line don't you think? Blah blah blah"<<<

Emotional puke excuse for a retort positing that the Palestinians are the innocent victims of quasi-Nazi aggression.


>>>"And we all know how he [Sharon] had his vision for a Greater Israel, don't we, CT, and all others before him, and he, just as the other Prime Ministers prior to, have been carrying out this little scheme quietly but nonetheless carrying it out. Don't think we're all blind. We're not."<<<

I don't think you're blind. The blind aren't guilty of averting their eyes so as to not see what they wish not to, a sin you *are* guilty of, as evident by the trash you're scattering around arguing that Barak, Rabin and Peres had a vision of keeping on to the entire Land of Israel and quitely strove toward materializing it. This accusation just further drives home how insanely mad you are; in your hatred of anything Israeli Jewish you'd sink to any depth to spout a lie.


>>>"The home demolitions were supposed to be terminated a few months ago. That is what we were told. However, that is seldom the case with Israel. Because just on 13 April two homes were demolished in East Jerusalem with further demolitions in Kfar Akab. Look it up."<<<

E. Jerusalem to your chagrin is part of Israel proper and that demolition is perfectly legit and fits with Israeli civil law. You would never have mentioned a case where a Jewish owned home was totally or partially destroyed due to failure to attain building permits, so your one-sided cry for the "wronged" owners doesn't move me.
Don't know the grounds for the Kfar Aqab demolition, but it definitely couldn't have been a punitive measure against a suicide bomber originating from that building. Israel had ceased demolishing homes on such grounds.


>>>"Oh, and there is a "no man's land", eh? Much like the old Zioinist lie about "a land without people for a people without land". It doesn't get any more mendacious than that."<<<


Much of Judea-Samaria is legally a no-man's land.
What can never get mendacious, let alone compete with the abysmal standard you keep setting anew for truth, is, yes, the Zionist truth that the Land of Israel was a "land without a people for a people without a land" -- you deliberately omitted the a. These tricks may work on your fellow freaks of nature like Wendy Campbell and a few gullables but not on too many others. I'm just pointing this out for the heck of it, not even because it needs to be. It's too obvious to begin with.


CT: You also don't genuinely care a whit about how Israeli
Jews are being treated by their leaders.

Actually it is highly possible that I care a hell of a lot more than you do."<<<

And pigs can fly.


>>>"The term anti semite and its derivatives is about to go the way of the Great Auk. The purpose of the word (and its derivatives) was a definitive purpose, one that meant something, one that was designed to protect jewish people."<<<

(a) Everything seems to indicate the word antisemite and derivatives will be around for long to come and aren't about to vanish in thin air only because "Angie" wishes.

(b) Contrary to your lie, that word denotes Jew hater.


>>>"And the zionists ot the world are to blame. In an effort to stifle all criticism of Israel, it has branded the world as a whole, more or less, as being anti semitic. It is too ludicrous to dwell on. Intelligent academics, writers, world leaders, it doesn't matter. If they as much as lift a quizzical eye in Israel's direction (and, yes, I've said this many times before) out comes the anti semite label. Much like the boy who cried wolf. "<<<

This I. Shamir/Avneri brand of lying vomit of yours doesn't sound any more convincing than it did a year ago or whenever you began puking it.


>>>"Critical Thinker, you're amusing. You are, in fact, very amusing and predictable,.and you're also very sad."<<<

Nope. I'm a rather merry person, to your dismay. What's sad is that the non-antisemitic regulars here must endure your sick poppycock, that is if they even bother to read it or parts thereof.


>>>"Take this series of comments, for instance. NONE of them are mine. If you have a problem with the wording or anything else, I suggest you go attack the right person.

http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/temp/HistoryofOurWorld4.html

(g) Jew Isaac Kohn of Israel National News illustrates the brutal depth of Jewish hatred of and bloodlust for any person or nation that crosses the Jewish agenda in any way,"

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/print.php3?what=article&id=2001"<<<

You're performing here a classic gambit characteristic of people who had utilized material of others without even the faintest of a disclaimer pointing out they don't condone or endorse the rabid racism therein, and when you get called on it, you run away from responsibility. The first I saw this worthless and spineless behavior from you was two years ago and it has never worked with me. Now let's further look at how you're trying to pretend you didn't at least tacitly agree with the neo-Nazi racist musings you drew from your neo-Nazi sources:


CT: "Jewish agenda"? It's utterly pathetic that you try to rail against the label of closet Nazi that Joe attached to you.

>>>"Get a damn grip, why don't you? I did not say this. It is part of the article in question. God, how eager you are to leap to false conclusions. Use some self control for God's sakes, and if you can't, then keep quiet. If you can't say anything more truthful than a "closet Nazi", say nothing. You're simply making a complete fool of yourself. I don't give much of a damn either what "Joe" attaches to myself or anyone else. I trust I've made myself clear. The entire commentary was a direct quote taken from a letter sent to Belguim authorities by this fanatic. "<<<

So now you've thrown the responsibility for having eagerly used a neo-Nazi source to make a point without a proper disclaimer (as I explained above) on Isaac Cohen and the neo-Nazi source. As you're fond of intoning, pathetic doesn't begin to describe what your attempt to escape your responsibility constitutes.


CT: How many other leaders of states actually guilty of war crimes were sought to stand trial in Belgium with even a quarter of the animus with which Sharon was? That's your twisted racist mind's "equal standards".

>>>"Again, talk to the writer of the piece."<<<

My oh my, what pitiful a creature you are... Now you're simply running away from a simple and direct question I asked you. I didn't address that question to your beloved neo-Nazi "author". Now, even a 5 year old child would most likely answer a simple and direct question that he/she's sufficiently knowledgeable to reply to. Either have the basic courtesy and courage to answer it now or fuck off. Meantime, I'm not the only one concluding you're too afraid to concur there have been no other world leaders who actually committed war crimes that were sought to stand trial in Belgium with even a quarter of the animus with which Sharon was. I tell ya, this is precious entertainment, watching you squirm. Even your pal Juif Antagoniste can do better...


CT: This is racist madness that's increasingly coming to typify you.

>>>"Don't paint me with the same brush you use yourself, CT."<<<

Huh?


>>>"I haven't given the NK or anyone else a thought. Nor have I never mentioned them. You're confusing me with someone else, hmm? Don't do it."<<<

Any chance you also try to exorcize facts away with a wave of magic wand too?


>>>"And classifying Uri Avnery and Israel Shamir as "lunatic fringe" is but to show us all yet again how devoid of any semblence of credibility you are."<<<

On the contrary, you would never as much as admit even to yourself how you all belong to such a lunatic fringe,


CT: You perfectly deserve them. But why would you ever complain? You're evidently proud of your racist venomous baggage.

>>>"You don't get it, do you? You didn't get it at SF IMC, and you still don't get it. I don't give a tiny iota what you say to me, what you call me, what you accuse me of. Your opinion is of no consequence to me."<<<

You're as persuasive as a pathological liar whose human surroundings are fully aware of his/her pathology.


>>>" In fact, the more you crucify me, the more you are proving what I'm saying about zionists and their vilification of anyone with a different viewpoint. "<<<

Fat chance. I'm probably feeding your persecution/messiah complex though.


>>>"And how you love to jump to erroneous conclusions. When I wrote the comment below:

First there's the name calling, right CT? Then there's the character assassination, vilification, even death threats.

I was talking generally. It is the norm, certainly, from where I sit. No one said you threatened me with death, or at least you didn't say it out loud on these boards. I really am beginning to believe you have no comprehension at all re what I'm saying."<<<

Not even a nice try at a maneuver to duck my retort. On this you're just as exposed as you got re my simple direct question to tell us which other leaders were sought as eagerly as with Sharon to stand trial in Belgium.


CT: If by that you mean there's lots of merit to these comparisons, this registers as another demonstration of your bigoted nuttiness.

>>>""Bigoted nuttiness" is a new one, though. Bear in mind, however, that I am not the one who has made comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany.I merely read about it."<<<

Again this spineless racist being runs away for her responsibility for a statement she has made. No novelty.


>>>"Since you, Joe, and Sefarad seem unable to submit a post without dragging Hitler, Nazis and so on into the mix, I thought I'd point out the realities to you."<<<

I wasn't the person repeatedly bringing up Hitler and the Nazis, you dishonest deceitful freak. You wouldn't recognize reality if it approached you and stood 5 inches from your face.


CT: But I'll be damned if I shrink from hounding you and others for unfairly singling Israel out for different standards than you hold most other states worldwide, particularly Arab ones while insisting one way or the other that I'm a racist and unjustly accusing me and other Jews of suffering from all those paranoid or other mental afflictions you're so fond of repeating. Too bad you're too much of a spoiled brat that you expect to be treated with kid gloves or be let off the hook for your unwarranted nauseating broadsides.

>>>"Who dragged the word "racist" into this thread? Who is continuing to prattle about racists, bigots, Nazis?"<<<

You're the one who began the prattle and blather in your exchanges with us, notably your laughable notion of the "evil and vile terrorist state, Israel" and "Sharon, butcher of Beirut (or Arabs)" and such nonsensical bits of idiocy.


CT: [in reply to her challenge that I name countries "as racist as Israel"] Many countries are more racist than Israel. Examples: China, Sudan, Iran, Pakistan, Russia, Zaire, the Maghreb states. The truth slaps you on the face regardless of your unwillingness to admit it.

>>>"Oh, I didn't realize China blah blah"<<<

She's running away from the answer as she can't refute it.


CT: In the meantime, you'd do well to study the tight and eager cooperation between your spiritual patriarch al-Husseini and the Nazis whose anti-Jewish principles you seem to increasingly growing to embrace.

>>>"You're really need to take that break you're urging me to take. Nothing you have stated here, including that last unwarranted attack, is close to being the truth."<<<

You obviously needed to wrap yourself in a cocoon of denial, such a comforting mechanism of defense to shield yourself from a particular consequence of your bigotry.

>>>"The people who know me are aware of who I am, and what I believe in."<<<

Yeah. This includes what's happening on this site.


>>>"Israel Shamir become a Christian a few years ago."<<<

Tell that also to your overseer nessie who told an irregular SF-IMC contributor a few months ago this years that he [Shamir] was Jewish.


>>>"Suffice to say he [I. Shamir] is one of the most intelligent, insightful, and courageous people anywhere."<<<

As you'd say: ye'ah, and the sky is falling.
by Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandl ZT&quot;L Dean o
Wednesday Apr 20th, 2005 9:20 PM
TEN QUESTIONS TO THE ZIONISTS

author: Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandl ZT"L Dean of Nitra Yeshiva

Someone posted this link the other day, interesting site. He's not denying the holocaust, he's just pointing fingers at differen't people. After reading this, and browsing through some essays at the site. I think you can safely say he's not anti-semetic. From the site: "This website documents how the ideology of Zionism promotes anti-Semitism." Judging from current american fascist rhetoric, I agree.
Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandl ZT
Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandl ZT"L Dean of Nitra Yeshiva
1. IS IT TRUE that in 1941 and again in 1942, the German Gestapo offered all European Jews transit to Spain, if they would relinquish all their property in Germany and Occupied France; on condition that:



a) none of the deportees travel from Spain to Palestine; and

b) all the deportees be transported from Spain to the USA or British colonies, and there to remain; with entry visas to be arranged by the Jews living there; and

c) $1000.00 ransom for each family to be furnished by the Agency, payable upon the arrival of the family at the Spanish border at the rate of 1000 families daily.
2. IS IT TRUE that the Zionist leaders in Switzerland and Turkey received this offer with the clear understanding that the exclusion of Palestine as a destination for the deportees was based on an agreement between the Gestapo and the Mufti.

3. IS IT TRUE that the answer of the Zionist leaders was negative, with the following comments:



a) ONLY Palestine would be considered as a destination for the deportees.

b) The European Jews must accede to suffering and death greater in measure than the other nations, in order that the victorious allies agree to a "Jewish State" at the end of the war.

c) No ransom will be paid

4. IS IT TRUE that this response to the Gestapo's offer was made with the full knowledge that the alternative to this offer was the gas chamber.

5. IS IT TRUE that in 1944, at the time of the Hungarian deportations, a similar offer was made, whereby all Hungarian Jewry could be saved.

6. IS IT TRUE that the same Zionist hierarchy again refused this offer (after the gas chambers had already taken a toll of millions).

7. IS IT TRUE that during the height of the killings in the war, 270 Members of the British Parliament proposed to evacuate 500,000 Jews from Europe, and resettle them in British colonies, as a part of diplomatic negotiations with Germany.

8. IS IT TRUE that this offer was rejected by the Zionist leaders with the observation "Only to Palestine!"

9. IS IT TRUE that the British government granted visas to 300 rabbis and their families to the Colony of Mauritius, with passage for the evacuees through Turkey. The "Jewish Agency" leaders sabotaged this plan with the observation that the plan was disloyal to Palestine, and the 300 rabbis and their families should be gassed.

10. IS IT TRUE that during the course of the negotiations mentioned above, Chaim Weitzman, the first "Jewish statesman" stated: "The most valuable part of the Jewish nation is already in Palestine, and those Jews living outside Palestine are not too important". Weitzman's cohort, Greenbaum, amplified this statement with the observation "One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Europe".



There are additional similar questions to be asked of these atheist degenerates known as "Jewish statesmen", but for the time being let them respond to the ten questions.

These Zionist "statesmen" with their great foresight, sought to bring an end two two-thousand years of Divinely ordained Jewish subservience and political tractability. With their offensive militancy, they fanned the fires of anti-Semitism in Europe, and succeeded in forging a bond of Jew-hatred between Nazi-Germany and the surrounding countries.

These are the "statesmen" who organized the irresponsible boycott against Germany in 1933. This boycott hurt Germany like a fly attacking an elephant - but it brought calamity upon the Jews of Europe. At a time when America and England were at peace with the mad-dog Hitler, the Zionist "statesmen" forsook the only plausible method of political amenability; and with their boycott incensed the leader of Germany to a frenzy. And then, after the bitterest episode in Jewish history, these Zionist "statesmen" lured the broken refugees in the DP camps to remain in hunger and deprivation, and to refuse relocation to any place but Palestine; only for the purpose of building their State.

The Zionist "statesmen" have incited and continue to incite an embittered Jewish youth to futile wars against world powers like England, and against masses of hundreds of millions of Arabs.

AND THESE SAME ZIONIST "STATESMEN" HEEDLESSLY PUSH THE WORLD TO THE BRINK OF ANOTHER TOTAL WAR - REVOLVING ENTIRELY AROUND THE HOLY LAND.

What may befall the Jewish inhabitants of Palestine, of the Arab crescent, Europe, or the USA; is of no concern to these Zionist leaders. The rising anti-Semitism in the Western World is the product of their "statesmanship".

Under the guise of "love of Israel", the Zionist "statesmen" seduced many Jews to replace devotion to the Torah and its Sages with devotion to the scoundrel who founded Zionism. It is of no little significance that Herzl originally sought conversion of the Jews as a solution to the problems of the Diaspora. When he realized that this was not acceptable to the Jewish masses, he contrived Zionism as a satisfactory alternative!

A look into history reveals that this very same type of "statesmen" opposed the call of Jeremiah the prophet to yield to the minions of Nebuchadnezzar at the destruction of the first Temple. Five centuries later, Rabbi Yochonon Ben Zakai appealed to the people to surrender to Titus the Roman to avoid bloodshed. The "statesmen" rejected this appeal, and the second Temple was destroyed by the Romans. --- And now for the past fifty years, the Zionist "statesmen" rebuff the leadership of our Sages; and continue in their policy of fomenting anti-Semitism. When will they stop?? Must every Jew in America also suffer?? - Even the Nazi monsters had more sense, and gave up their war before all Germany was destroyed. The Zionist "statesmen" ridicule the sacred oath which the Creator placed upon the Jews in the Diaspora. Our Torah, in Tractate Ksubos, folio 111, specifies that the Creator, blessed be He, swore the Jews not to occupy the Holy Land by force, even if it appears that they have the force to do so; and not rebel against the Nations. And the Creator warned that if His oath be desecrated, Jewish flesh would be "open property", like the animals in the forest!! These are words of our Torah; and these concepts have been cited in Maimonides' "Igeres Teimon", "Be'er HaGola", "Ahavas Yehonosson", and in "Toras Moshe" of the Chasam Sofer.

IT IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT ALL THE SAGES AND SAINTS IN EUROPE AT THE TIME OF HITLER'S RISE DECLARED THAT HE WAS A MESSENGER OF DIVINE WRATH, SENT TO CHASTEN THE JEWS BECAUSE OF THE BITTER APOSTASY OF ZIONISM AGAINST THE BELIEF IN THE EVENTUAL MESSIANIC REDEMPTION.

Yidden - merciful sons of merciful fathers - how much longer must holy Jewish blood continue to be shed??

The only solution is:

The Jewish people must reject, outright, a "Jewish State".

The Jewish people should accept the US compromise.

We must depose the atheist-Zionist "statesmen" from their role as Jewish leaders, and return to the faithful leadership of our sages.

We beseech the Nations to open all doors to immigration - not only the doors of Palestine.

Peaceful, non-Zionist religious personalities in Palestine, (particularly from the native population) and their counterparts in the Diaspora, should engage in responsible, face-to face negotiations on behalf of the Jewish people, with the British and the Arabs; with an aim of amicable settlement of the Palestine issue.

Every Jew is obliged to pray to the Blessed creator, for in Him lies all our strength. Let us bear in mind that our prayers be forthright. One should not entreat the Creator to provide a banquet on Yom Kippur, and one can not perform a ritual ablution with a dead bug in his hand. Similarly, we should avoid the untenable position of the robber who prays for Divine help in carrying out his crime. We should pray that Zionism and its fruits vanish from the Earth, and that we be redeemed by the Messiah with dispatch.

A prisoner is released only when he has served his time, or if he is pardoned by the President for good behavior. If he attempts escape and is apprehended, his term is lengthened, besides the beating he receives when he is caught.

Faithful Jews- for over three and one-half thousand years, in all parts of the world, through all trials, our grandfathers and grandmothers marched through seas of blood and tears in order to keep the Faith of the Torah unswervingly. If we have compassion for ourselves, for our women and children, and for the Jewish people, we will maintain our golden legacy today. We have been sentenced to exile by the King of Kings because of our sins. The eternal blessed be He, has decreed that we accept the exile with humble gratitude until the time comes, or until we merit His pardon through repentance if we seek to end the exile with force, G-d will catch us, as our sages have forewarned, and our sentence becomes longer and more difficult.

Many times in the past have segments of our people been defrauded by false messiahs - but none of the false messiahs has been as fallacious and delusory as the lie of Zionism. With our historical experience as our guide, no retribution has been or will be greater than the retribution for giving credence to Zionism. If we wish our exile-sentence commuted, we must appeal through repentance; and through total physical and spiritual observance of the Sabbath, laws of family purity, and study of Torah.

Let it be clearly understood that never in Jewish history (even in the time of Jeroboam or Achav) have such hostile atheists stood at the helm of the Jewish people as today.

How can we plead to the Almighty for mercy while we tolerate these vile, "wicked" leaders as spokesmen! Beloved brothers - let us cleanse our ranks and cleanse our midst; let us entreat the Almighty through prayer, repentance, and fulfillment of mitzvos that He alone redeem us, immediately.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/rabbi_quotes/weissmandl.cfm

http://publish.portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/04/315854.shtml


and

at the same link

Collective Self-Deception: The 10 Most Common Mistakes of Israelis 19.Apr.2005 20:06
Gilad Atzmon link

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/09/271284.shtml

August 28, 2003

Collective Self-Deception

The Most Common Mistakes of Israelis

By GILAD ATZMON

The most common mistakes made by Israelis are as follows:

1. To fail to realize that there is no essential difference between Tel Aviv and a Jewish settlement in the West Bank.

2. To believe that the creation of the state of Israel was an outcome of the Holocaust.

3. To regard themselves as innocent people and thus as victims of the Israeli­Palestinian conflict.

4. To believe that they live in a democracy and therefore that their atrocities are legitimate.

5. To be convinced that they live in an open society which enjoys political and ideological diversity.

6. To believe that the ghetto is behind them.

7. To be convinced that the 'Jewish state' is a legitimate concept.

8. To think that Israel is a shelter for the entire Jewish people and the best answer to anti-Semitism.

9. To regard themselves as humanists.

10. To be sure that Israel is immortal.


Then the 10 are discussed in detail.



by Sefarad
Wednesday Apr 20th, 2005 11:58 PM
"IS IT TRUE that in 1941 and again in 1942, the German Gestapo offered all European Jews transit to Spain, "

There was no agreement. There were people risking their lives to help the European Jews to go to Spain.

The Spanish embassies received orders to issue Spanish passports to Sefardis, but also passports were given to non-Sefardi Jews.

According to a historian (de la Cierva), who was a witness when a child and later made research, during several days and nights, a huge number of Jews were crossing the border from France. I have read the same story in several sources.

I have just found this site

http://hitlerstoppedbyfranco.com/franco_jews.htm