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Indybay Feature
Pro-choice/anti-abortion polarization
The recent anti-abortion march (sponsored by "Feminists 4 Life") was met with equal polarized opposition by the pro-choice crowd. Police presence discouraged dialogue and increased polarization by using barricades..
Sometimes it seems that two opposing groups have nothing in common. If police perpetuate this view, it increases tension between the two groups and a shouting match ensues Yes vs. No, Black vs. White with no middle ground for a rational discussion. After talking calmly with two young men from the "other side" (i marched with pro-choice crowd) i was told by a cop to return to "my side" or i would be arrested. They objected to the end of our conversation but i was able to hand off a slingshot anarchist magazine to one of them before i was yanked back to "my side" of the dividing fence. Wonder if the anti-abortion organizers allowed him to read the magazine..
Personally i feel protecting women's right to choose is more valuable than attempting to understand the Christian view that abortion is wrong and needs to be outlawed. This is not the time or place to attempt to revoke a woman's right to choose. Other options to reducing the amount of abortions include better access to contraceptives and also medicinal plants that decrease fertility or even have the same effects as abortions..
This link has info on medicinal plants used by the Sabah people to induce abortions;
http://www.ids.org.my/idsgroup/vaic/R&D/article1.htm
Finally and most importantly is improving the condition of the world a child is born into. War, chemical/nuclear toxins in air/water/food, poverty, race/class discrimination are just some of the serious issues children must face after birth.
If an anti-abortion group claims "pro-life" and supports the Bush administration and his conservative Christian backers (ex. Falwell/Robertson) they are sorry ass hypocrites. There is no way you deserve to call yourself pro-life and simultaneously rally behind a tyrant who advocates depleted uranium bullets as a means of enforcing "democracy" in Iraq and elsewhere. Not to mention the Bush/Christian mafia support the genocidal acts of Israeli government against the Palestinians. Yucca Mt. nuclear waste dump site will be a domestic byproduct if Bush & Co. have their way. More cancer for babies in Nevada, Iraq, and elsewhere..
If this "feminists 4 life" group wants to save any shred of self respect 4 their cause, they would be wise to distance themselves from the Bush/Falwell pro-war imperialist mentality..
Final question 4 the "fems 4 life";
Do u want to reduce the amount of abortions young women are having?
Me too. Personally i don't really like abortions but preventing a woman's right to choose is not the way to actualize this. Maybe working to end poverty, war and pollution will make the world a better place to want to have children in. Teaching teenagers how to access/use contraceptives will prevent those unwanted pregnancies from happening. Nobody really wants to have an abortion, it is a last resort choice by a woman in desperate measures..
Of course women deserve better. They deserve a world without nuclear radiation, pollution, poverty and warfare to have children in. When this is actualized, maybe abortions will finally become a non-issue..
Here's the website 4 the "fems 4 Life" group. Maybe we can leave our "my side" comfort zones and engage in dialogue with the opposition to discover common ground..
Personally i feel protecting women's right to choose is more valuable than attempting to understand the Christian view that abortion is wrong and needs to be outlawed. This is not the time or place to attempt to revoke a woman's right to choose. Other options to reducing the amount of abortions include better access to contraceptives and also medicinal plants that decrease fertility or even have the same effects as abortions..
This link has info on medicinal plants used by the Sabah people to induce abortions;
http://www.ids.org.my/idsgroup/vaic/R&D/article1.htm
Finally and most importantly is improving the condition of the world a child is born into. War, chemical/nuclear toxins in air/water/food, poverty, race/class discrimination are just some of the serious issues children must face after birth.
If an anti-abortion group claims "pro-life" and supports the Bush administration and his conservative Christian backers (ex. Falwell/Robertson) they are sorry ass hypocrites. There is no way you deserve to call yourself pro-life and simultaneously rally behind a tyrant who advocates depleted uranium bullets as a means of enforcing "democracy" in Iraq and elsewhere. Not to mention the Bush/Christian mafia support the genocidal acts of Israeli government against the Palestinians. Yucca Mt. nuclear waste dump site will be a domestic byproduct if Bush & Co. have their way. More cancer for babies in Nevada, Iraq, and elsewhere..
If this "feminists 4 life" group wants to save any shred of self respect 4 their cause, they would be wise to distance themselves from the Bush/Falwell pro-war imperialist mentality..
Final question 4 the "fems 4 life";
Do u want to reduce the amount of abortions young women are having?
Me too. Personally i don't really like abortions but preventing a woman's right to choose is not the way to actualize this. Maybe working to end poverty, war and pollution will make the world a better place to want to have children in. Teaching teenagers how to access/use contraceptives will prevent those unwanted pregnancies from happening. Nobody really wants to have an abortion, it is a last resort choice by a woman in desperate measures..
Of course women deserve better. They deserve a world without nuclear radiation, pollution, poverty and warfare to have children in. When this is actualized, maybe abortions will finally become a non-issue..
Here's the website 4 the "fems 4 Life" group. Maybe we can leave our "my side" comfort zones and engage in dialogue with the opposition to discover common ground..
For more information:
http://www.womendeservebetter.com/
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The abortion issue was discussed long ago; we have a right to a safe and legal abortion, which is the ruling of Roe v. Wade. Discussing abortion is like discussing the flat earth theory. The earth is round; abortion is a reasonable medical procedure for ending unwanted pregnancy and it saves women's lives.
The Catholic Church, by definition anti-Semitic, anti-women hate march that we saw in San Francisco in January 2005, brought to us by the Democratic Party machine of San Francisco, which would not dare issue a permit to outfits with the same agenda like the Ku Klux Klan and any group of Nazis, uses abortion as a smokescreen to bring a fascist agenda to San Francisco. That is what the whole anti-abortion agenda is: Using abortion to bring fascism to tbe US.
That bastion of reaction, the Catholic Church, is a tried and true vehicle for promoting fascism, with its history of reactionary politics dating back hundreds of years, including the Inquisition, attacking Galileo (I wonder if the anti-abortion crowd still believes the earth does not revolve around the sun), supporting the Nazi ally in Spain, General Franco, and its long-standing anti-gay and anti-women policies, not to mention its basic premise it shares with all other religions, namely being a promoter of superstition.
Abortion remains one of the safest medical procedures and getting rid of the unwanted fetus, which in the first few months of pregnancy, is just a clump of cells, is a very reasonable way to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. Abortion should be free (fully government-funded) to anyone who requests an abortion at any stage in pregnancy, with no restrictions whatsoever, including no parental or spousal consent, no age restrictions, and no restriction as to length of pregnancy.
Abortion and all other forms of birth control should be actively encouraged and freely available to anyone of any age, who needs them, and condoms should be available to any man, of any age, including teenagers, to who need them. Condoms should be dispensed in all male bathrooms in the high schools and everywhere else.
Every child must be a wanted child and the mother should feel that she can provide for the child materially and emotionally.
The attack on our right to abortion is a smokescreen for promoting fascism. It is part of the fascist agenda of kicking women out of the workplace and making us dependent on men for everything. The fact that this exists in this society is a sign of a declining, rotten stage of capitalism, a very bankrupt social order. As the economic inequality increases, so too does the basis for all kinds of superstitious beliefs on the part of those who have no or little education. It is also an opportunity for us to organize the workingclass, who benefit the most from abortion, to get rid of this bankrupt social order of capitalism and establish socialism.
We do not debate the fact that the earth is round; we do not debate the validity of abortion. There is nothing to discuss; we are for our right to abortion and we oppose fascist hate marches.
The Catholic Church, by definition anti-Semitic, anti-women hate march that we saw in San Francisco in January 2005, brought to us by the Democratic Party machine of San Francisco, which would not dare issue a permit to outfits with the same agenda like the Ku Klux Klan and any group of Nazis, uses abortion as a smokescreen to bring a fascist agenda to San Francisco. That is what the whole anti-abortion agenda is: Using abortion to bring fascism to tbe US.
That bastion of reaction, the Catholic Church, is a tried and true vehicle for promoting fascism, with its history of reactionary politics dating back hundreds of years, including the Inquisition, attacking Galileo (I wonder if the anti-abortion crowd still believes the earth does not revolve around the sun), supporting the Nazi ally in Spain, General Franco, and its long-standing anti-gay and anti-women policies, not to mention its basic premise it shares with all other religions, namely being a promoter of superstition.
Abortion remains one of the safest medical procedures and getting rid of the unwanted fetus, which in the first few months of pregnancy, is just a clump of cells, is a very reasonable way to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. Abortion should be free (fully government-funded) to anyone who requests an abortion at any stage in pregnancy, with no restrictions whatsoever, including no parental or spousal consent, no age restrictions, and no restriction as to length of pregnancy.
Abortion and all other forms of birth control should be actively encouraged and freely available to anyone of any age, who needs them, and condoms should be available to any man, of any age, including teenagers, to who need them. Condoms should be dispensed in all male bathrooms in the high schools and everywhere else.
Every child must be a wanted child and the mother should feel that she can provide for the child materially and emotionally.
The attack on our right to abortion is a smokescreen for promoting fascism. It is part of the fascist agenda of kicking women out of the workplace and making us dependent on men for everything. The fact that this exists in this society is a sign of a declining, rotten stage of capitalism, a very bankrupt social order. As the economic inequality increases, so too does the basis for all kinds of superstitious beliefs on the part of those who have no or little education. It is also an opportunity for us to organize the workingclass, who benefit the most from abortion, to get rid of this bankrupt social order of capitalism and establish socialism.
We do not debate the fact that the earth is round; we do not debate the validity of abortion. There is nothing to discuss; we are for our right to abortion and we oppose fascist hate marches.
Thank you for posting this. I think the days of the "abortion on demand without apology" are over, and we need to acknowledge that we can be pro choice without having to cheerlead about how great abortion is.
I'd also recommend Inga Muscio's essay about being a "prolife baby killer" in her book "Cunt". She's got a great perspective on the complexieties of this issue.
I'd also recommend Inga Muscio's essay about being a "prolife baby killer" in her book "Cunt". She's got a great perspective on the complexieties of this issue.
Let's not forget, this isn't about how "bad" abortion is. This struggle is over whether or not men and patriarchal institutions can control women and other men. Family planning via infanticide has been practiced throughout humanity for thousands of years, because human families could only survive and be healthy if the birthrate was controlled. It's no more "evil" than the act that created the child in the first place.
It's only been until recently that Christians have been opposed to it. And let's remember that Christianity has NEVER, EVER been Pro-Life, not during the Crusades, not against war, not when millions of Jews, Gypsies, Communists, and Gays were being exterminated in Europe, and now not against the death penalty. The struggle to outlaw a woman's (and a family's) right to choose how to plan their family isn't fascist, it's totalitarian and anti-democratic, which perfectly describes the Catholic Church and many other lunatic Protestant Evangelical cults. But the true nature of their beliefs doesn't derive out of reverance to God, but out of men's ability to spread their DNA and carry on their "legacy" through children, illegitimate or not. It's ugly, it's barbaric, and it's at the core of the so-called abortion debate. These so-called Christians who march out there for "life" are always and forever FUCKING hypocrites, liars, and fools.
It's only been until recently that Christians have been opposed to it. And let's remember that Christianity has NEVER, EVER been Pro-Life, not during the Crusades, not against war, not when millions of Jews, Gypsies, Communists, and Gays were being exterminated in Europe, and now not against the death penalty. The struggle to outlaw a woman's (and a family's) right to choose how to plan their family isn't fascist, it's totalitarian and anti-democratic, which perfectly describes the Catholic Church and many other lunatic Protestant Evangelical cults. But the true nature of their beliefs doesn't derive out of reverance to God, but out of men's ability to spread their DNA and carry on their "legacy" through children, illegitimate or not. It's ugly, it's barbaric, and it's at the core of the so-called abortion debate. These so-called Christians who march out there for "life" are always and forever FUCKING hypocrites, liars, and fools.
"I think the days of the "abortion on demand without apology" are over,"
The "without apology" is a deeper term that needs unpacking..."without apology" means without a public show of penitance. If we feel pain(some of us do and decide to deal with it throughout our lives, some of us do not, are are not to be termed psychopaths) we are not required to make a show of or an public offering of that pain, which is a personal possession and our experince to share(or not)as we see fit. Those days are certainly not over.
"and we need to acknowledge that we can be pro choice without having to cheerlead about how great abortion is".
Um...come on. Use deliberate language. No one has ever led a cheer...what we have celebrated is increasing our control over our bodies and what happens to them...women's bodies are political terra firma, as are men's bodies, albeit in a different way.
Another thing is is that it isn't just a clump of fetal tissue. It is also not (in my estimation) a person deserving of seperate rights. There is a thing in between...it is an acute and exacting biological phenomena/event for the pregant women(again I'm speaking as someone who has had more than one abortion, and who is solidly pro-choice)
I think that folks that are pro-choice need to come up with meaningful definitions of the verbiage that is tossed around..."personhood", "choice", "without apology", etc...I would love to think that we've had this conversation and had it concluded with Roe V Wade, but it isn't true, and if we want to further expand the notion of reproductive rights, justices and responsibilities...we have to push into this discussion further.
I want to see a women's choice self-generated and self-authenticated and made free from coercion. I want her, from the time she is a little girl, to be aware of her body, historically, biologically, politically...I want her to have a lifetime of thinking about herself as a total system or as an environment...something that can't be partitioned, segmented or segregated...I want her to know these things in order that any decision she makes is made from a place of self knowlege and self love.
The "without apology" is a deeper term that needs unpacking..."without apology" means without a public show of penitance. If we feel pain(some of us do and decide to deal with it throughout our lives, some of us do not, are are not to be termed psychopaths) we are not required to make a show of or an public offering of that pain, which is a personal possession and our experince to share(or not)as we see fit. Those days are certainly not over.
"and we need to acknowledge that we can be pro choice without having to cheerlead about how great abortion is".
Um...come on. Use deliberate language. No one has ever led a cheer...what we have celebrated is increasing our control over our bodies and what happens to them...women's bodies are political terra firma, as are men's bodies, albeit in a different way.
Another thing is is that it isn't just a clump of fetal tissue. It is also not (in my estimation) a person deserving of seperate rights. There is a thing in between...it is an acute and exacting biological phenomena/event for the pregant women(again I'm speaking as someone who has had more than one abortion, and who is solidly pro-choice)
I think that folks that are pro-choice need to come up with meaningful definitions of the verbiage that is tossed around..."personhood", "choice", "without apology", etc...I would love to think that we've had this conversation and had it concluded with Roe V Wade, but it isn't true, and if we want to further expand the notion of reproductive rights, justices and responsibilities...we have to push into this discussion further.
I want to see a women's choice self-generated and self-authenticated and made free from coercion. I want her, from the time she is a little girl, to be aware of her body, historically, biologically, politically...I want her to have a lifetime of thinking about herself as a total system or as an environment...something that can't be partitioned, segmented or segregated...I want her to know these things in order that any decision she makes is made from a place of self knowlege and self love.
Reading Gay Guy's "insightful" rhetoric re: abortion vs. male/church domination I am reminded of an apt description befitting some on the left:
"Liberals/progressives are the self-righteous, led by the self-important for the benefit of the self-interested."
"Liberals/progressives are the self-righteous, led by the self-important for the benefit of the self-interested."
"Liberals/progressives are the self-righteous, led by the self-important for the benefit of the self-interested."
As related to the abortion issue (which I assume you are referring to), it is clear to the majority of US citizens that imposing the self-righteousness of the right on everybody else in the country is not acceptable.
We've had quite a few Conservative Radicals come on here lately saying how they know what's best for every woman, and they even know best about when life begins. If that's not self-righteousness, what is!
As related to the abortion issue (which I assume you are referring to), it is clear to the majority of US citizens that imposing the self-righteousness of the right on everybody else in the country is not acceptable.
We've had quite a few Conservative Radicals come on here lately saying how they know what's best for every woman, and they even know best about when life begins. If that's not self-righteousness, what is!
Miss Moth,
I choose life, life first in me through Christ, life then through what I do for Christ. Choosing life is difficult, because it means that I live in the real world where there is pain and suffering and hard times, but there also love and life and happiness. In Christ, the Love, Life and Happiness are boundless and abundant in comparison to that which comes with death or choosing death. Christ and others who believe will help us through hard times, so we persevere. It is sad to see persons blind to the liberating affect of life. In fact to you we smell like death, because to choose life means to first "die" (to give up fully) to what you know and believe now and become reborn into a life infinitely more free and fulfilling, but only willing people take such risks or leaps of faith. It's scary, like jumping from a cliff and there is pain in giving it up and not knowing if the Lord will catch you or not. He always does if you leap into Him.
If you want all the facts to consider an abortion, and are strong enough to face such facts (that is to use your language of "being open minded"), then I suggest getting or referring an ultra-sound. You can go to places on this website:
http://www.4d-ultrasounds.com/northern-california.htm
To see exactly and in its entirety the small life that is in each woman's womb. Then you will see the truth. Babies are blessings and it is our duty as you say to make a life for that blessed life inside...and if you think that one day the world will be "perfect" enough to then stop abortions to allow babied to be born then you will be waiting a long time. The world of humans is not perfect and never will be, we have to make the best of it, and in Christ we can.
It's amazing what we as persons who are already redeemed in Christ (including you) can do if we are challenged to do so. I challenged you to choose life and choose it fully giving up your ideas of abortion. You will know truth and perhaps you will know Christ. Besides you can always go back--that is free will.
v/r,
James W. Hogan
Washington DC
Christ is real, what do you think the calendar years are based on?
I choose life, life first in me through Christ, life then through what I do for Christ. Choosing life is difficult, because it means that I live in the real world where there is pain and suffering and hard times, but there also love and life and happiness. In Christ, the Love, Life and Happiness are boundless and abundant in comparison to that which comes with death or choosing death. Christ and others who believe will help us through hard times, so we persevere. It is sad to see persons blind to the liberating affect of life. In fact to you we smell like death, because to choose life means to first "die" (to give up fully) to what you know and believe now and become reborn into a life infinitely more free and fulfilling, but only willing people take such risks or leaps of faith. It's scary, like jumping from a cliff and there is pain in giving it up and not knowing if the Lord will catch you or not. He always does if you leap into Him.
If you want all the facts to consider an abortion, and are strong enough to face such facts (that is to use your language of "being open minded"), then I suggest getting or referring an ultra-sound. You can go to places on this website:
http://www.4d-ultrasounds.com/northern-california.htm
To see exactly and in its entirety the small life that is in each woman's womb. Then you will see the truth. Babies are blessings and it is our duty as you say to make a life for that blessed life inside...and if you think that one day the world will be "perfect" enough to then stop abortions to allow babied to be born then you will be waiting a long time. The world of humans is not perfect and never will be, we have to make the best of it, and in Christ we can.
It's amazing what we as persons who are already redeemed in Christ (including you) can do if we are challenged to do so. I challenged you to choose life and choose it fully giving up your ideas of abortion. You will know truth and perhaps you will know Christ. Besides you can always go back--that is free will.
v/r,
James W. Hogan
Washington DC
Christ is real, what do you think the calendar years are based on?
Did you consider the pain of a woman who died of an illegal abortion? Probably not. But as to the fetus:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/02/1720159.php
an excerpt:
Bible Scholar Graham Spurgeo
Q. The anti-abortionists talk about the pain that the fetus feels during abortion. Is there really pain involved?
A. Yes, any abrupt change in tissue structure results in “distress.” Yes, the fetus twitches. But you could carry this pseudo-scientific logic to an extreme: scientists have proven that plants are as sensitive as animals; when plucked by their roots, they “scream” with electrophysiological “pain.” Should we therefore stop harvesting vegetables because of this “pain?”
I am not moved by the “pain” of an embryo, which is a smidgen of tissue. (At four weeks, an embryo is no bigger than a kernal of corn – don’t let blown-up photographs mislead you.) I am moved, however, by the abuse of a child who is battered and slashed by parents who never wanted him.
Q. Are you saying that the anti-abortionists are indifferent to the pain of child abuse?
A. Though many anti-abortionists are fine, sensitive human beings, the fanatics among them seem to have a concern that begins with conception and ends with birth. Columnist Carl T. Rowan says the fanatics want to “force poor women to have babies, curse them when their children go on welfare, deny the children even a minimum level of decency, then wait for them to get pregnant at age 12 or 13 when they can tell them, ‘No abortions, you must have babies.’”
PS. There are many calendars for many different cultures, many older than yours. How nice of you to think that we should all use your particular calendar. Very agreeable of the rest of the planet who aren't Christian to be so accomodating to you and your beliefs. Can you do the same for those of us who aren't Christian?
http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/02/1720159.php
an excerpt:
Bible Scholar Graham Spurgeo
Q. The anti-abortionists talk about the pain that the fetus feels during abortion. Is there really pain involved?
A. Yes, any abrupt change in tissue structure results in “distress.” Yes, the fetus twitches. But you could carry this pseudo-scientific logic to an extreme: scientists have proven that plants are as sensitive as animals; when plucked by their roots, they “scream” with electrophysiological “pain.” Should we therefore stop harvesting vegetables because of this “pain?”
I am not moved by the “pain” of an embryo, which is a smidgen of tissue. (At four weeks, an embryo is no bigger than a kernal of corn – don’t let blown-up photographs mislead you.) I am moved, however, by the abuse of a child who is battered and slashed by parents who never wanted him.
Q. Are you saying that the anti-abortionists are indifferent to the pain of child abuse?
A. Though many anti-abortionists are fine, sensitive human beings, the fanatics among them seem to have a concern that begins with conception and ends with birth. Columnist Carl T. Rowan says the fanatics want to “force poor women to have babies, curse them when their children go on welfare, deny the children even a minimum level of decency, then wait for them to get pregnant at age 12 or 13 when they can tell them, ‘No abortions, you must have babies.’”
PS. There are many calendars for many different cultures, many older than yours. How nice of you to think that we should all use your particular calendar. Very agreeable of the rest of the planet who aren't Christian to be so accomodating to you and your beliefs. Can you do the same for those of us who aren't Christian?
In response to the transcript posted...and comments.
I hope you hear that there is Hope and Truth and Life available. The world is not as lonely as you think.
There are infinite reasons why life is beautiful and in human fortitude, strengthened even more by Christ, we persevere. There are a seemingly numberless accounts that aim to discredit these reasons or invalidate a pregancy to nothing more that putting on a few extra pounds. Life is beautiful (let alone the afterlife) and no one should be lied to to think that life is otherwise a drain or a curse, we are not alone despite the world's best efforts to individualize each of us. There is help, but we lead our lives by our choices made possible through Free Will. And, again, despite the world's best efforts, there are consequences to each choice (good or bad). For the good consequences there are those here with whom to share the happiness (eg. having a bady) and for the bad consequences there are the same people from whom to seek help with healing. Please choose life, there is always a way to persevere and we know that way--through Christ.
http://www.hopeafterabortion.com/
PS. Understood about about the Calendars...the Jewish calendar is older...thanks for pointing that out. The point is that the civilized world is based on the Christian Calendar, we are living in AD 2005. When the Jewish calendar began Christ's wasn't born yet...likewise for other older calendars. Don't miss the real message above.
I hope you hear that there is Hope and Truth and Life available. The world is not as lonely as you think.
There are infinite reasons why life is beautiful and in human fortitude, strengthened even more by Christ, we persevere. There are a seemingly numberless accounts that aim to discredit these reasons or invalidate a pregancy to nothing more that putting on a few extra pounds. Life is beautiful (let alone the afterlife) and no one should be lied to to think that life is otherwise a drain or a curse, we are not alone despite the world's best efforts to individualize each of us. There is help, but we lead our lives by our choices made possible through Free Will. And, again, despite the world's best efforts, there are consequences to each choice (good or bad). For the good consequences there are those here with whom to share the happiness (eg. having a bady) and for the bad consequences there are the same people from whom to seek help with healing. Please choose life, there is always a way to persevere and we know that way--through Christ.
http://www.hopeafterabortion.com/
PS. Understood about about the Calendars...the Jewish calendar is older...thanks for pointing that out. The point is that the civilized world is based on the Christian Calendar, we are living in AD 2005. When the Jewish calendar began Christ's wasn't born yet...likewise for other older calendars. Don't miss the real message above.
"I hope you hear that there is Hope and Truth and Life available. The world is not as lonely as you think."
Where did you get the lonely part? We're all just fine, and appreciate a multitude of different religions and cultures and viewpoints. No need to obsess on one over another.
"There are infinite reasons why life is beautiful and in human fortitude, strengthened even more by Christ, we persevere. There are a seemingly numberless accounts that aim to discredit these reasons or invalidate a pregancy to nothing more that putting on a few extra pounds."
Very flowery indeed, but "putting on a few pounds" trivializes the issue. Contrary to what some of the anti-choice might think, women do not use abortion as the latest diet plan, any more than they use it for contraception. Those who claim to be "pro-life" need to to get past that (in addition to keeping personal religious preferences out of this issue).
"but we lead our lives by our choices made possible through Free Will."
And Free Choice.
"And, again, despite the world's best efforts, there are consequences to each choice (good or bad). For the good consequences there are those here with whom to share the happiness (eg. having a bady) and for the bad consequences there are the same people from whom to seek help with healing."
There are indeed consequences to the denial of a woman's right to choose in a safe and legal environment. Witness the story of Gerri Santoro:
http://www.sapphireblue.com/25years/
"Please choose life, there is always a way to persevere and we know that way--through Christ.
To choose, once must *have* choice. Also, considering how many people there are on the planet who DON'T happen to be Christian, I would advise that you separate religion from the dialogue. However if you insist, you can read the previous posted link by Christian scholar Graham Spurgeon:
http://www.angelfire.com/ut/indigo/murder.html
He demonstrates that in the Bible there is in fact more importance placed on the life of an adult women than a fetus. Perhaps you might care to counter those arguments in biblical scholarship? Or even better, discuss it at your next Bible group?
PS."The point is that the civilized world is based on the Christian Calendar, we are living in AD 2005."
My point would be that the civilized world began long before Christ. The Chinese calendar for instance began several thousand years earlier. Right now many Western cultures use the Judeo-Christian calendar. Maybe that's a trend, but let's give it a few thousand more years.
Where did you get the lonely part? We're all just fine, and appreciate a multitude of different religions and cultures and viewpoints. No need to obsess on one over another.
"There are infinite reasons why life is beautiful and in human fortitude, strengthened even more by Christ, we persevere. There are a seemingly numberless accounts that aim to discredit these reasons or invalidate a pregancy to nothing more that putting on a few extra pounds."
Very flowery indeed, but "putting on a few pounds" trivializes the issue. Contrary to what some of the anti-choice might think, women do not use abortion as the latest diet plan, any more than they use it for contraception. Those who claim to be "pro-life" need to to get past that (in addition to keeping personal religious preferences out of this issue).
"but we lead our lives by our choices made possible through Free Will."
And Free Choice.
"And, again, despite the world's best efforts, there are consequences to each choice (good or bad). For the good consequences there are those here with whom to share the happiness (eg. having a bady) and for the bad consequences there are the same people from whom to seek help with healing."
There are indeed consequences to the denial of a woman's right to choose in a safe and legal environment. Witness the story of Gerri Santoro:
http://www.sapphireblue.com/25years/
"Please choose life, there is always a way to persevere and we know that way--through Christ.
To choose, once must *have* choice. Also, considering how many people there are on the planet who DON'T happen to be Christian, I would advise that you separate religion from the dialogue. However if you insist, you can read the previous posted link by Christian scholar Graham Spurgeon:
http://www.angelfire.com/ut/indigo/murder.html
He demonstrates that in the Bible there is in fact more importance placed on the life of an adult women than a fetus. Perhaps you might care to counter those arguments in biblical scholarship? Or even better, discuss it at your next Bible group?
PS."The point is that the civilized world is based on the Christian Calendar, we are living in AD 2005."
My point would be that the civilized world began long before Christ. The Chinese calendar for instance began several thousand years earlier. Right now many Western cultures use the Judeo-Christian calendar. Maybe that's a trend, but let's give it a few thousand more years.
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