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Indybay Feature
Anti-choice marchers in SF
Thousands of anti-choice activists converged on San Francisco from throughout California for what organizers hope is the first annual west coast "Walk for Life." They were meet along the march route by thousands defending a women’s right to choose.
Thousands of anti-choice activists converged on San Francisco from throughout California for what organizers hope is the first annual west coast "Walk for Life." They were later meet along the march route by thousands defending a women’s right to choose.
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That man is as unattractive as he is rude.
But he thinks he's the king of his little kingdom.
He thinks he knows what's best for all the women. He thinks we should have baby after baby and that God will provide.
He's sweet in his simplicity, but he's quite stupid about real life.
He thinks he knows what's best for all the women. He thinks we should have baby after baby and that God will provide.
He's sweet in his simplicity, but he's quite stupid about real life.
Hmm... there seemed to be something like a 1:7 ratio on Saturday... the pro-abortion folks were always one deep along the route (and constantly shifting forward, while the marchers were always around 10+ deep.
because the pro-choice march was an hour and a half ahead of the anti-choice march. some of us in the know went back to meet you. But after the fine efforts of our men in blue (some of whom ripped signs from our side) to deny us our march while you had yours, we weren't even allowed the use of the sidewalks to follow you.
And I know how many people it takes to fill Justin Herman Plaza for a protest. If you had 7k of anti-choicers, you would have been spilling out on Market St. past Drumm St and the hotel. Which you were not. But you wouldn't know that being outside agitators.
And I know how many people it takes to fill Justin Herman Plaza for a protest. If you had 7k of anti-choicers, you would have been spilling out on Market St. past Drumm St and the hotel. Which you were not. But you wouldn't know that being outside agitators.
The commonly accepted number for official use in SF is that it takes 3,000 people to fill Justin Herman Plaza. All public safety decisions are made on that number.
Justin Herman Plaza looked to be about 2/3 full, so I would make an estimate of 2,000 people max at the anti-choice rally.
Justin Herman Plaza looked to be about 2/3 full, so I would make an estimate of 2,000 people max at the anti-choice rally.
Five thousand women die from clandestine abortions every year in Latin America. It has one of the highest abortion rates in the world, despite its near-universal illegality.
SANTIAGO (WOMENSENEWS)--Monica Maureira remembers how--as the nurses interrogated her and the doctors lectured her--she watched her hands going transparent from the blood loss.
She was 16 years old and was hemorrhaging after having had a clandestine abortion in Chile, a country where abortion is illegal and considered immoral.
"I remember the nurses telling me that if I didn't give them the name of the doctor who gave me the abortion, they would let me bleed to death," Maureira says.
She lived to tell her story, but many women don't.
Across Latin America, an estimated 5,000 women die every year as a result of clandestine abortions, according International Planned Parenthood Federation. An estimated 800,000 are hospitalized due to complications, according to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, based in New York and Washington.
Abortion is prohibited across most of Latin America. Cuba and Puerto Rico are the exceptions. While some countries allow abortion in cases of rape or danger to the mother's life, there are no exceptions in Chile, Colombia and El Salvador. These countries prosecute hundreds of women for having abortions.
Policy of Prosecuting Women
Lidia Casas, a lawyer and professor at Chile's Diego Portales University, in Santiago, says during the 1980s, Chile began a policy of prosecuting women. Between 250 and 300 cases go into the justice system per year, she says, and in 2001, around 50 people were convicted for having an abortion.
"It's mostly poor women who end up going to the hospitals for their complications of an illegal backstreet abortion and some of the doctors or the midwives working in the maternity wards used to report the women to the police right there," says Casas. The maximum penalty is five years in prison.
But despite such legal risks, Latin America continues to experience abortion rates that are much higher than most countries where it is legal.
There are an estimated 4 million abortions every year across the region. Up to 200,000 clandestine abortions take place in Chile every year--twice as many as in Canada, which has 100,000 a year--and Chile has half the population.
Rates Highest in Chile and Peru
The abortion rates are highest in Chile and Peru (where one woman in 20 has an induced abortion). In Brazil, Colombia and the Dominican Republic, it's about one woman in 30, and in Mexico approximately one in 40. (In the United States, the rate is 21.3 per 1,000 women.)
Cristina Alonso works at the Luna Maya birthing clinic in San Cristobal de las Casas, Mexico. She says there are between half a million and a million abortions a year in Mexico. And while abortion is legal in cases of rape or a threat to life, the actual mechanism to get permission to have a legal abortion is so complex that it discourages women. Alonso points out that last year in Mexico City, only 17 legal abortions were approved, yet there are 30 rapes reported to police per day there.
Ramiro Molina, a doctor and the director of the Centre for Reproductive Medicine and Public Health at the University of Chile, led a 10-year study in three impoverished communities on the outskirts of Santiago. Clinicians provided direct medical attention for women at high risk of pregnancy. A social worker also called them regularly and worked around their schedules. They had access to all birth control methods, education, counseling and follow-up visits. The abortion rate dropped 82 percent in some communities after this intense grassroots intervention.
Public health advocates cite the study as proof that abortion rates can be lowered through improved availability, delivery and quality of contraception and the establishment of post-abortion contraceptive counseling in hospitals.
In analyzing why--despite tough legal penalties, health risks and the predominant influence of the Catholic Church-- Latin America's abortion rates so high, some people put the blame on gender inequality.
Anibal Faundes, a doctor and researcher at the Universidad Estadual de Campinas in Sao Paulo, Brazil, singles out gender inequality as the No. 1 reason for the high abortion rate. He says religion isn't a deterrent, because there is an inherent hypocrisy in the region's Catholics and conservative defenders of family values, who don't always practice what they preach.
"There is a culture that is said and a culture that is done," Faundes says.
'Concrete Gender Frameworks'
Alonso agrees: "In Latin America, we still have very concrete gender frameworks in terms of male sexual behavior. Men are not supposed to be responsible for the consequences of sexual behavior, but they are supposed to be active sexually . . . Women, on the other hand, still maintain fairly strong gender notions of passivity, of wanting to trust the man. You know there's this whole idea in Latin America of romance and 'maybe if I do get pregnant he'll stay with me forever.'"
When the man doesn't stay, many jilted women turn to an abortion.
Alonso says another problem is that most of the family planning has been geared towards women and attitudes toward sexual behavior can't change without including men, who often impose sex on women.
"Much of the education is expecting women to take control of their bodies," says Alonso. "But this is a country where women don't have cultural control over their bodies. So how are they expected to make a decision over whether or not they get pregnant?"
That lack of control over when to have sex often leads to unwanted pregnancies, which often end in abortions.
Contraception Access Blocked
In Andean countries, the story is the same, says Jeanine Anderson, an anthropologist with the Catholic University of Peru in Lima. Men often resist giving their wife access to contraception because they fear losing control over her and how many children she will have, says Anderson.
"I think that in their heart of hearts, they really want to control family size," says Anderson. "That shows in their behavior. You know, they aren't having ten kids like their grandfathers did. But there is an issue of who controls her sexuality . . . Is it me, the obstetrician, or the health post, or is it me, the husband or the father, or the brother?"
A sign of women's lack of control over their fertility, says Carmen Barroso, director of International Planned Parenthood Federation for the Western Hemisphere, is the fact that at least half Latin America's pregnancies are undesired.
Reducing unwanted pregnancies requires cultural changes, says Mariana Schkolnik, a consultant, with the social development division of the U.N.'s Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean. This includes adjusting traditional gender roles, erasing the social stigma attached to abortion and changing outdated family laws.
But legalizing abortion is also key, says Schkolnik, to prevent so many women from dying. She points out that where abortion is legal--such Europe and North America--the percentage of abortions performed has actually gone down. She says that's because legalization is usually accompanied by informed access to public health, education and family planning.
Claudia Lagos, journalist and author of the 2001 book "Aborto en Chile," says the topic has been avoided in Chile because it has high political costs for any politician who dares weigh in on this controversial topic. Plus, without statistics, it isn't clear who's affected, so there are no clear electoral benefits. Lagos says the Catholic Church has also been influential and not only on conservative sectors of the population.
"The Church played an important role in protecting leftists and defending human rights during the dictatorship of General Augusto Pinochet," she explains. "So when democracy was restored in 1990, a new political class that had been protected by the Church assumed power and in many ways they had to pay their dues. And that has meant avoiding some leftist issues the Church opposed, such as abortion."
Casas says she doubts abortion will become a priority for the political classes in Chile because it doesn't touch their lives.
"The political elite, or the people who have money, happen to have access to abortions under optimal conditions, a doctor, a clinic, anesthesia . . . or they can even go to Miami to a clinic, so it's not an issue for them. Poor women risk their lives."
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2086/context/cover
SANTIAGO (WOMENSENEWS)--Monica Maureira remembers how--as the nurses interrogated her and the doctors lectured her--she watched her hands going transparent from the blood loss.
She was 16 years old and was hemorrhaging after having had a clandestine abortion in Chile, a country where abortion is illegal and considered immoral.
"I remember the nurses telling me that if I didn't give them the name of the doctor who gave me the abortion, they would let me bleed to death," Maureira says.
She lived to tell her story, but many women don't.
Across Latin America, an estimated 5,000 women die every year as a result of clandestine abortions, according International Planned Parenthood Federation. An estimated 800,000 are hospitalized due to complications, according to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, based in New York and Washington.
Abortion is prohibited across most of Latin America. Cuba and Puerto Rico are the exceptions. While some countries allow abortion in cases of rape or danger to the mother's life, there are no exceptions in Chile, Colombia and El Salvador. These countries prosecute hundreds of women for having abortions.
Policy of Prosecuting Women
Lidia Casas, a lawyer and professor at Chile's Diego Portales University, in Santiago, says during the 1980s, Chile began a policy of prosecuting women. Between 250 and 300 cases go into the justice system per year, she says, and in 2001, around 50 people were convicted for having an abortion.
"It's mostly poor women who end up going to the hospitals for their complications of an illegal backstreet abortion and some of the doctors or the midwives working in the maternity wards used to report the women to the police right there," says Casas. The maximum penalty is five years in prison.
But despite such legal risks, Latin America continues to experience abortion rates that are much higher than most countries where it is legal.
There are an estimated 4 million abortions every year across the region. Up to 200,000 clandestine abortions take place in Chile every year--twice as many as in Canada, which has 100,000 a year--and Chile has half the population.
Rates Highest in Chile and Peru
The abortion rates are highest in Chile and Peru (where one woman in 20 has an induced abortion). In Brazil, Colombia and the Dominican Republic, it's about one woman in 30, and in Mexico approximately one in 40. (In the United States, the rate is 21.3 per 1,000 women.)
Cristina Alonso works at the Luna Maya birthing clinic in San Cristobal de las Casas, Mexico. She says there are between half a million and a million abortions a year in Mexico. And while abortion is legal in cases of rape or a threat to life, the actual mechanism to get permission to have a legal abortion is so complex that it discourages women. Alonso points out that last year in Mexico City, only 17 legal abortions were approved, yet there are 30 rapes reported to police per day there.
Ramiro Molina, a doctor and the director of the Centre for Reproductive Medicine and Public Health at the University of Chile, led a 10-year study in three impoverished communities on the outskirts of Santiago. Clinicians provided direct medical attention for women at high risk of pregnancy. A social worker also called them regularly and worked around their schedules. They had access to all birth control methods, education, counseling and follow-up visits. The abortion rate dropped 82 percent in some communities after this intense grassroots intervention.
Public health advocates cite the study as proof that abortion rates can be lowered through improved availability, delivery and quality of contraception and the establishment of post-abortion contraceptive counseling in hospitals.
In analyzing why--despite tough legal penalties, health risks and the predominant influence of the Catholic Church-- Latin America's abortion rates so high, some people put the blame on gender inequality.
Anibal Faundes, a doctor and researcher at the Universidad Estadual de Campinas in Sao Paulo, Brazil, singles out gender inequality as the No. 1 reason for the high abortion rate. He says religion isn't a deterrent, because there is an inherent hypocrisy in the region's Catholics and conservative defenders of family values, who don't always practice what they preach.
"There is a culture that is said and a culture that is done," Faundes says.
'Concrete Gender Frameworks'
Alonso agrees: "In Latin America, we still have very concrete gender frameworks in terms of male sexual behavior. Men are not supposed to be responsible for the consequences of sexual behavior, but they are supposed to be active sexually . . . Women, on the other hand, still maintain fairly strong gender notions of passivity, of wanting to trust the man. You know there's this whole idea in Latin America of romance and 'maybe if I do get pregnant he'll stay with me forever.'"
When the man doesn't stay, many jilted women turn to an abortion.
Alonso says another problem is that most of the family planning has been geared towards women and attitudes toward sexual behavior can't change without including men, who often impose sex on women.
"Much of the education is expecting women to take control of their bodies," says Alonso. "But this is a country where women don't have cultural control over their bodies. So how are they expected to make a decision over whether or not they get pregnant?"
That lack of control over when to have sex often leads to unwanted pregnancies, which often end in abortions.
Contraception Access Blocked
In Andean countries, the story is the same, says Jeanine Anderson, an anthropologist with the Catholic University of Peru in Lima. Men often resist giving their wife access to contraception because they fear losing control over her and how many children she will have, says Anderson.
"I think that in their heart of hearts, they really want to control family size," says Anderson. "That shows in their behavior. You know, they aren't having ten kids like their grandfathers did. But there is an issue of who controls her sexuality . . . Is it me, the obstetrician, or the health post, or is it me, the husband or the father, or the brother?"
A sign of women's lack of control over their fertility, says Carmen Barroso, director of International Planned Parenthood Federation for the Western Hemisphere, is the fact that at least half Latin America's pregnancies are undesired.
Reducing unwanted pregnancies requires cultural changes, says Mariana Schkolnik, a consultant, with the social development division of the U.N.'s Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean. This includes adjusting traditional gender roles, erasing the social stigma attached to abortion and changing outdated family laws.
But legalizing abortion is also key, says Schkolnik, to prevent so many women from dying. She points out that where abortion is legal--such Europe and North America--the percentage of abortions performed has actually gone down. She says that's because legalization is usually accompanied by informed access to public health, education and family planning.
Claudia Lagos, journalist and author of the 2001 book "Aborto en Chile," says the topic has been avoided in Chile because it has high political costs for any politician who dares weigh in on this controversial topic. Plus, without statistics, it isn't clear who's affected, so there are no clear electoral benefits. Lagos says the Catholic Church has also been influential and not only on conservative sectors of the population.
"The Church played an important role in protecting leftists and defending human rights during the dictatorship of General Augusto Pinochet," she explains. "So when democracy was restored in 1990, a new political class that had been protected by the Church assumed power and in many ways they had to pay their dues. And that has meant avoiding some leftist issues the Church opposed, such as abortion."
Casas says she doubts abortion will become a priority for the political classes in Chile because it doesn't touch their lives.
"The political elite, or the people who have money, happen to have access to abortions under optimal conditions, a doctor, a clinic, anesthesia . . . or they can even go to Miami to a clinic, so it's not an issue for them. Poor women risk their lives."
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2086/context/cover
To all you pro-life judeao christian assholes out there: FUCK YOU! Keep you stinking wacko religious values to yourselves and stop projecting them upon the rest of us. We will ALWAYS fight you EVERY step of the way. You can count on that, right wing born again assholes.
You are ruining this country for everybody else who does not care for your fucked up religious beliefs. You bomb clinics, you shoot doctors, you harass people...you are no different in many respects from the Islamic fundamentalists in that you attack everybody who simply wants to do their own thing, e.g. not go to your fucking churches on Sunday morning, read your fucking bible, and all that stone-age nonsense. Get a life, fer chrissake!
We should ship all you religious extremist born-again evangelical freaks down to texas. GO to "jesusland" already, and leave the west coast in peace.
You all totally suck, btw.
The profanity certainly convinces me of your intellect... Were you, by chance, the foulmouthed guy with the loudspeaker parked across the street from Justin Herman Plaza?
We heard a lot of foul language, but not much logic, I guess you don't have any to offer.
The ugly fact is, WE"RE WINNING! The pro-life people were smiling, and the other side were all angry and foulmouthed, because you know it!!
We heard a lot of foul language, but not much logic, I guess you don't have any to offer.
The ugly fact is, WE"RE WINNING! The pro-life people were smiling, and the other side were all angry and foulmouthed, because you know it!!
to judge us all by one exceptional person that you read on the internet! It's nice to see you're as in touch with reality as the poster you're commenting about.
What does that mean, we are winning?
What does winning mean to you? How do you plan to take care of all these babies you are going to save?
You had better get started building more hospitals and schools for one thing.
You are so impossibly impractical, you can't think beyond "saving the babies". In real life you have to feed the babies and get them their shots and teach them to walk and read, and put them through school.
Where is your big master plan for that? Somebody's taxes are going to go way up to pay for this brave new world.
What does winning mean to you? How do you plan to take care of all these babies you are going to save?
You had better get started building more hospitals and schools for one thing.
You are so impossibly impractical, you can't think beyond "saving the babies". In real life you have to feed the babies and get them their shots and teach them to walk and read, and put them through school.
Where is your big master plan for that? Somebody's taxes are going to go way up to pay for this brave new world.
Por-choicers march derouted to back streets...how revealing!
Male cops derout the progressives where they cannot be an eye-sore! This is what is happening at the global level - women's causes derouted at every turn...and progressive women let it happen. It's time to stop marching and organize our radical political party to take power and deroute the planet from its destruction path. We have the economic clout now let's put it together with a political arm( accountable and led by militant grass-root radical sisters).
TAKE THE POWER ...or we will all perish under the boot of the patriarchal industrial-military-complex.
Male cops derout the progressives where they cannot be an eye-sore! This is what is happening at the global level - women's causes derouted at every turn...and progressive women let it happen. It's time to stop marching and organize our radical political party to take power and deroute the planet from its destruction path. We have the economic clout now let's put it together with a political arm( accountable and led by militant grass-root radical sisters).
TAKE THE POWER ...or we will all perish under the boot of the patriarchal industrial-military-complex.
Ever notice how the left side seems to be perpetually angry and screaming about one thing or another. And you mistake that for your argument having more support. I will agree that you put more stress on your vocal cords, but that is about it. These "Anti-Choice fanatics" as you say are not wasting there time with these little boards that noboby besides us reads. They are out helping women to get the resources they need to not be forced into abortion. Yes, FORCED into abortion. Lack of resources makes it impossible for women to choose life, ergo leaving them one option - another buck in the pocket of Planned Parenthood!
And yes I do see the irony that I am responding your little quip... but you know the only reason why. I USED TO BE PRO CHOICE (so I frequent boards like this) and was as angry and pissed off as the rest of you. I learned first hand how abortion effects women and will spend the last breath in body proclaiming just as loud and often times obnoxiously as your side the absolute cage that women are put in because men now have another hoop for us to jump through to acheive equality.
I'll bet all of us women are thankful for the work of the pioneering feminists... I am! Well what do you think that Susan B Anthony and Elizabeth Caddey Staton thought of this issue. Check out this site - http://www.feministsforlife.org/ - I dare you. While you are at it - google the name of Bernard Nathanson - I'll bet most of you dont even know who he is. He was a key witness and proponent of Roe V Wade also the founder of NARAL. Then look up Norma McCorvey (that's Jane Roe herself).
Let me know what you think. Seriously - cause they were enough to have me switch sides. I welcome your opinions. This is not about me being right... it is about what is right. So if you are so convinced that pro-choice is the way to be... I beg you to quit yelling and PROVE ME WRONG!
And yes I do see the irony that I am responding your little quip... but you know the only reason why. I USED TO BE PRO CHOICE (so I frequent boards like this) and was as angry and pissed off as the rest of you. I learned first hand how abortion effects women and will spend the last breath in body proclaiming just as loud and often times obnoxiously as your side the absolute cage that women are put in because men now have another hoop for us to jump through to acheive equality.
I'll bet all of us women are thankful for the work of the pioneering feminists... I am! Well what do you think that Susan B Anthony and Elizabeth Caddey Staton thought of this issue. Check out this site - http://www.feministsforlife.org/ - I dare you. While you are at it - google the name of Bernard Nathanson - I'll bet most of you dont even know who he is. He was a key witness and proponent of Roe V Wade also the founder of NARAL. Then look up Norma McCorvey (that's Jane Roe herself).
Let me know what you think. Seriously - cause they were enough to have me switch sides. I welcome your opinions. This is not about me being right... it is about what is right. So if you are so convinced that pro-choice is the way to be... I beg you to quit yelling and PROVE ME WRONG!
Anti-choice rally at Embarcadero
http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/01/1716463_comment.php#1717360
"PROVE ME WORNG, by I AM BEGGING YOU":
by pro-choice believer Wednesday, Jan. 26, 2005 at 1:48 AM
OKAY. EASY ENOUGH:
"Ever notice how the _left_ side seems to be _perpetually angry and screaming_ about one thing or another. And you mistake that for your argument having more support. I will agree that you put more stress on your vocal cords, but that is about it." (Tuesday, Jan. 25, 2005 at 11:32 PM)
RIGHT-WING LOUDMOUTHS:
You mean, unlike Sunday morning tv evangelists like Jerry Falwell, or Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill "SHUT UP!" O'Reilly, Michael Savage, Pat Buchanan, Ann Coulter, Daniel Pipes, John McLaughlin, Chris Matthews, Donald Rumsfeld, Camille Paglia, Gordon Liddy, Oliver North, Lynne Cheney, etc., etc., etc...
No, I've never noticed.
NOW LET'S TAKE A QUOTE:
PROVE ME WORNG by I AM BEGGING YOU [Note that she/he writes in all caps, as she/he complains about lefties "screaming". Didn't Jesus say something about _hypocrites_ casting the first stone? Or what about people in glass houses...?]: "I learned first hand how abortion effects women and will spend the last breath in body proclaiming just as _loud_ and often times _obnoxiously_..."
(By the way, there are plenty of liberal, independent, politically middle-of-the-road and even Republican women, religious and non-religious, who are also pro-choice. It's mostly just the male-led Bible-thumping religious fundamentalists, fanatics, bombers, and assassins who are anti-choice.)
And here's the choice 'pearl' by I AM BEGGING YOU : "I beg you to _quit yelling_ and _PROVE ME WRONG_!"
I just did. Had enough?
Now stop spamming the threads.
http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/01/1716463_comment.php#1717360
"PROVE ME WORNG, by I AM BEGGING YOU":
by pro-choice believer Wednesday, Jan. 26, 2005 at 1:48 AM
OKAY. EASY ENOUGH:
"Ever notice how the _left_ side seems to be _perpetually angry and screaming_ about one thing or another. And you mistake that for your argument having more support. I will agree that you put more stress on your vocal cords, but that is about it." (Tuesday, Jan. 25, 2005 at 11:32 PM)
RIGHT-WING LOUDMOUTHS:
You mean, unlike Sunday morning tv evangelists like Jerry Falwell, or Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill "SHUT UP!" O'Reilly, Michael Savage, Pat Buchanan, Ann Coulter, Daniel Pipes, John McLaughlin, Chris Matthews, Donald Rumsfeld, Camille Paglia, Gordon Liddy, Oliver North, Lynne Cheney, etc., etc., etc...
No, I've never noticed.
NOW LET'S TAKE A QUOTE:
PROVE ME WORNG by I AM BEGGING YOU [Note that she/he writes in all caps, as she/he complains about lefties "screaming". Didn't Jesus say something about _hypocrites_ casting the first stone? Or what about people in glass houses...?]: "I learned first hand how abortion effects women and will spend the last breath in body proclaiming just as _loud_ and often times _obnoxiously_..."
(By the way, there are plenty of liberal, independent, politically middle-of-the-road and even Republican women, religious and non-religious, who are also pro-choice. It's mostly just the male-led Bible-thumping religious fundamentalists, fanatics, bombers, and assassins who are anti-choice.)
And here's the choice 'pearl' by I AM BEGGING YOU : "I beg you to _quit yelling_ and _PROVE ME WRONG_!"
I just did. Had enough?
Now stop spamming the threads.
I was pro-choice for 25 years and supported Planned Parenthood financially. My position was one based on emotion and to be honest, selfishness. I refused to participate in any rational debate over this topic. The trap door in my mind closed immediately, and a "How dare you tell me what I can do with my body!" attitude took over. But the literature I received from Planned Parenthood helped me switch to the other side. Their opposition to women receiving information about the developmental stage of the fetus, and their desire to keep everyone in the dark about the real nature of abortion, disturbed me. I don't think women should make these decisions based on ignorance.
But do you agree that women should make these decisions for themselves with informed choice? Or should your conversion apply to the rest of us?
I had an abortion at Planned Parenthood, and I was given the basics of fetal development. What they did NOT do was attach cultural definitions fetal development (meaning they did not id the fetus as a baby), because they are a medical clinic and using a cultural term (baby) is inappropriate. It isnt up to Planned Parenthood to provide a cultural set of definitions to the patient...they are a medical clinic and they deal with/in medically sound concepts.
Common now people, when will you realize that Both Sides are Crazier than a Rabid Dog in Love with a killer bee
Maybe we should all just flip a coin, heads Abortion is Legal and Tails it's illegal.
After this is done there should be no more reason for all the yelling and protesting because the coin know all.
Maybe we should all just flip a coin, heads Abortion is Legal and Tails it's illegal.
After this is done there should be no more reason for all the yelling and protesting because the coin know all.
since the issue isn't of concern to you, why bother to post about it. too much time on your hands, little boy?
It seems to me that poeple have a tendency to confuse legal, moral, and right. It is a woman's right, in most cases, to have an abortion. That is a right which has been bestowed on us by our legal system.
We have the right to abuse our bodies in all sorts of ways: smoking, over-eating, over-working, alcohol abuse, even abortion. Does that mean it's good, or moral, or right?
What about abortion to save a life? Face it, abortion as a life-saving procedure is completely different from abortion as a means of birth control. Do you know how few abortions are really necessary to save the life of a mother? With the medical technology we have today, viability is very, very early. Seldom is an abortion necessary to actually save a mother's life. Before abortion was legalized, how many thousands of women died every day due to a pregnancey gone wrong? Now, how many abortions a day kill an innocent child since Roe v. Wade in the name of saving a mother? See any correlation there?
How many of you realize that the risks, physical and psycological, from an having an abortion are permanent? I have friends who had abortions when they were young, and grieve over the loss of their would-be children even into their 40's, regardless of their conservative, or liberal beliefs. It's so painful that they don't even want to talk about it. How many women who have had abortions are proud of it? Would you wear a t-shirt that says, "I got pregnant and killed my baby for my own convenience?" That's exactly what having an abortion is when it is not life-threatening. It's convenience-threatening, not life threatening.
How necessary are most abortions? I just came back from China on a plane filled with couples bringing newly adopted babies into the U.S. I think that's wonderful! But do you know how hard it is for a couple to adopt a baby born in the U.S.? The waiting lines are unbelievable! Why? Because we kill them before they are born.
But is a woman's right, and who am I to say abortion is wrong? I'm nobody, and it's not my call to tell someone else what they should or shouldn't do. But you should know the facts.
Most right-wing conservatives don't want to interefere with a woman's choice as much as they want to educate women to make smart and moral choices. That starts with remaining chaste until you're married. And, yes, I'm sane. Of course, people will have sex outside of marriage, but as long as we condone, and even promote it as the media do, we will have a society rife with broken hearts, and women with low self-esteem. Think about it. How do you rate a woman, in your mind, who has had many sex partners? Is that something you think a woman should be proud of? There's another t-shirt for you: "Slut, and proud of it." What should that be telling us? How about those t-shirts for 2 year-olds that say, "Hottie," huh? Isn't that sweet? I just want my toddler to be viewed as a sex object.
As long as we buy into the lie that having casual sex is good, and without consequence, we're going to be faced with even more serious consequences for not only the individuals who live with the murder of babies on their consciences, but with a depleting population, and a demoralized society.
When we devalue life to the point that we suck a helpless baby's brains out before the rest of its body is allowed to exit the birth canal, how can we expect something as "minor" as violent crime: rape, murder, assault, robbery, etc., to ever decrease? When you've taken away the value of life, what's left? Money? Stuff? Material things? The sacred Earth?
Where are your values? Where are your morals? We are all allowed our opinions, and thank God, in this country, we are given the right to express them. Our country gives us the right to choose how we want to treat our bodies and our children. That's the legal side of it. God will be the judge of the rest. And if God, doesn't exist, then, you don't have anything to worry about, right? So, don't waste you time jumping all over that one.
Remember, rationalization is your mind's way of making excuses for what your conscience tells you is wrong. We have rights, we deep down, we know what is good and right, and that is what will keep us moral.
We have the right to abuse our bodies in all sorts of ways: smoking, over-eating, over-working, alcohol abuse, even abortion. Does that mean it's good, or moral, or right?
What about abortion to save a life? Face it, abortion as a life-saving procedure is completely different from abortion as a means of birth control. Do you know how few abortions are really necessary to save the life of a mother? With the medical technology we have today, viability is very, very early. Seldom is an abortion necessary to actually save a mother's life. Before abortion was legalized, how many thousands of women died every day due to a pregnancey gone wrong? Now, how many abortions a day kill an innocent child since Roe v. Wade in the name of saving a mother? See any correlation there?
How many of you realize that the risks, physical and psycological, from an having an abortion are permanent? I have friends who had abortions when they were young, and grieve over the loss of their would-be children even into their 40's, regardless of their conservative, or liberal beliefs. It's so painful that they don't even want to talk about it. How many women who have had abortions are proud of it? Would you wear a t-shirt that says, "I got pregnant and killed my baby for my own convenience?" That's exactly what having an abortion is when it is not life-threatening. It's convenience-threatening, not life threatening.
How necessary are most abortions? I just came back from China on a plane filled with couples bringing newly adopted babies into the U.S. I think that's wonderful! But do you know how hard it is for a couple to adopt a baby born in the U.S.? The waiting lines are unbelievable! Why? Because we kill them before they are born.
But is a woman's right, and who am I to say abortion is wrong? I'm nobody, and it's not my call to tell someone else what they should or shouldn't do. But you should know the facts.
Most right-wing conservatives don't want to interefere with a woman's choice as much as they want to educate women to make smart and moral choices. That starts with remaining chaste until you're married. And, yes, I'm sane. Of course, people will have sex outside of marriage, but as long as we condone, and even promote it as the media do, we will have a society rife with broken hearts, and women with low self-esteem. Think about it. How do you rate a woman, in your mind, who has had many sex partners? Is that something you think a woman should be proud of? There's another t-shirt for you: "Slut, and proud of it." What should that be telling us? How about those t-shirts for 2 year-olds that say, "Hottie," huh? Isn't that sweet? I just want my toddler to be viewed as a sex object.
As long as we buy into the lie that having casual sex is good, and without consequence, we're going to be faced with even more serious consequences for not only the individuals who live with the murder of babies on their consciences, but with a depleting population, and a demoralized society.
When we devalue life to the point that we suck a helpless baby's brains out before the rest of its body is allowed to exit the birth canal, how can we expect something as "minor" as violent crime: rape, murder, assault, robbery, etc., to ever decrease? When you've taken away the value of life, what's left? Money? Stuff? Material things? The sacred Earth?
Where are your values? Where are your morals? We are all allowed our opinions, and thank God, in this country, we are given the right to express them. Our country gives us the right to choose how we want to treat our bodies and our children. That's the legal side of it. God will be the judge of the rest. And if God, doesn't exist, then, you don't have anything to worry about, right? So, don't waste you time jumping all over that one.
Remember, rationalization is your mind's way of making excuses for what your conscience tells you is wrong. We have rights, we deep down, we know what is good and right, and that is what will keep us moral.
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