Victoria Indymedia Facing Shutdown

I, as one of a small cadre of Vancouver Indymedia volunteers, have monitored Vancouver Indymedia for about three years, and I have read approximately 50,000 articles and 500,000 comments during that time. Average time spent by me per day : approximately 10 hours. I personally did about 95 % of the editing on the site, since no one else was available, though many people were encouraged to help out. Number of articles published per day - between 40 and 75.

Without taking the time to specifically address all of the above comments, let me simply say that many of the facts and impressions implied by the above postings are grossly untrue or inaccurate. In general, they are made by uninformed sources or people with a somewhat extremist axe to grind.

No one in the Vancouver Indymedia collective agrees with or endorses extreme right wing, anti-progressive, racist, Nazi, pro-war or other such ignorant perspectives. There happened to be the unfortunate situation, however, that an inadequacy of resources and deficiency in the software exposed the site to a deluge of hostile postings that couldn''t be removed as fast as they were submitted. Before I or anyone else could get to these postings they had often been responded to, often with quite well considered and expressed comments, rebuttals, further information and links, etc. and these hostile or ignorant postings had generally become vital parts of long and heated exchanges. To remove the antagonistic postings would have destroyed the sense of the threads.

Whenever aggressive editing was tried, various trolls would spam the site with literally hundreds of massive text / photo / sound files for hours on end. I literally spent hundreds of hours (in total) doing nothing but removing such files, sometimes for hours and hours on end. The techies failed to introduce simple patches as requested to stop the capacity of trolls to shut down the comments section and thereby waste vast amounts of my time. Is it any wonder that I stopped removing all the spam and troll droppings, when the consequence would have been condemning myself to being chained to my computer performing repetitive tasks for hours and hours on end?

Nessie's theory that all people who allegedly make unwanted sexual advances should have the "living shit kicked out of them" is horrible. If this were implemented, then there would be alot of people badly injured, some killed, and the general population terrorised and brutalised. Some of those who attack people would end up in jail for criminal assault. Vigilantism would be legitimised. The courts system or some other civilised response should be employed, not mob violence.

Regarding Vancouver Indymedia, the main job ahead, in my view, is to enlarge the volunteer collective and to develop a fundraising program to cover the high bandwidth costs which result from the fact that the site has a very high and ever increasing number of devoted users. With these improvements, then better, more thorough and consistent editing would naturally result.

Though Jane Doe may have grievances from the past, and with Jean in general, these have no practical relevancy that I can see to the Vancouver Indymedia collective process over the past three years. She should pursue her actions against Jean outside of Vancouver Indymedia, as the Indymedia project is not pertinent to her concerns and she is abusing and damaging an excellent independent media project in order to attempt to achieve a personal goal. Though potentially valid and even laudable, Jane's campaign for justice (or whatever) does not involve Vancouver Indymedia in any practical, relevant, current context. Jean is no longer around, and when he was occasionally around in the past he was always reasonably well behaved as far as I am aware.

Regarding the Middle East debate, it is a matter of near universal concern by activists and students of world affairs, and obviously deserves a space on any Indymedia. However, it belongs in the appropriate section, and confined to the appropriate threads of course.

TIn general, the content of the newswire is a product of the postings that people choose to put up there. There is no need for editors to try to tell people what articles or stories to post and what not to post. As long as the titles are clear and accurate, each reader is welcome to read any article, or to ignore any article. Restricting articles to locals only topics would not, in my opinion, have any merit.

Vancouver is a large and important city, with a large community surrounding it. It is important that it has a good Indymedia. This requires a large group of dedicated volunteers, as well as significant financial contributions. I suggest that a budget of about $1000 per month should cover bandwidth costs and other basic expences to provide an excellent service.

I strongly encourage many people to show up at any future meetings and I encourage all independent media supporters and Indymedia users to make regular, generous donations to relaunch the Vancouver Indymedia and develop it into one of the best in the world.

Independent media, in my opinion, is the main key to creating a more informed, responsible, and engaged public, and thereby reversing current regressive trends, and instead creatung a positive future for humanity, animals, and nature.

dismiss the post above it's propaganda from VC/IMC

THE STAFF IS TRYING TO COVER ITS "COLLECTIVE ASS"
and will say anything to divert attention from their deeds.

The problems of the Van and Vic IMCs does not appeart to be editorial policy as much as inability to pay their bandwidth bills. Perhaps complicated by the lack of formal agreements between themselves and the provider as to who is ultimately responsible for what, even whether there IS any arrangement between these sites individually and the provider or just between the provider and the two sites collectively << in which case it might not matter that Vic IMC has been paying its share >>

This is NOT the first time this sort of thing has come up. Many of our IMCs begun under an arrangement where some donor said "I'll pay for the first year's (or two years ot whatever) bandwidth cost -- give you time to arrange your finances. Well that's fair enough, right? "Freedom to publish" has never meant free of cost. It means no restrictions on being to publish IF you can manage to pay for your medium. To the extent that you are beholden to others to provide the wherewithal, you are NOT free, THEY get the final word as to what you can or cannot publish.

some folks are more used to having their servers/services given to them than others. funny, innit, when they turn around and silence other points of view, pleading costs?

Three weeks after the above article was posted, Van-IMC shut down. Now Scott Nelson is preparing to shut down Victoria Indymedia as well. Apparently, there's no need for consensus on this issue. An email to the discussion list laid down the ultimatum, giving the Victoria volunteers four days to come up with an alternative host.

See the latest, here:
http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2004/11/1706507.php

Any luck yet?

(because they act like complete assholes.) They only people they treat worse than their readers are their volunteers. They don't deserve support. They desreve to be ostracized.

you just described yourself, nessie

Where'd you learn that, second grade? Those were the days, huh?

you ain't wanted here

nessie-obsessie: "This is ummittigated bullshit. When they started whining about this, I personally to help them. They didn't even have the common human courtesy to answer my email until I called them on it in public."

Nessie's "offer" was contingent on his being given editorial control of the newswire, as I recall. Wonder why Van-Indy didn't fall all over themselves to accept it. But they didn't. Because they had the bad taste to neglect to bow to nessie's demands, nessie threw a typical Il Duce "I will see you crawling in the dirt!" tantrum, one he relives right here --

nessie-obsessie: "They're lying rat-bastard scum, a cancer in the heart of Indymedia. You'd do the world more good by burning your money than by giving it to them. They're a disgrace to the network, to the movement and to the species. "

Yes, folks, that is the same nessie-obsessie who, in his very next post, complains about schoolyard taunts. But that's the kind of guy he is: "one rule for me, one rule for thee."

In other words, nessie saw a dysfunctional collective with a spam problem, tried to exploit the problem by -- in effect -- taking it over, had his power-grab rebuffed, and is now gloat-gloat-gloating that the collective was not able to work out its problems.

Why? Because nessie sucks. If there _is_ a cancer in the heart of Indybay, its a malignant nessinoma.

@%<

nessie-obsessie: "consider the source."

An ad-hominem is not a rebuttal.

@%<

This is nessie's imaginary battle for the very soul of Indymedia. On one side, is the racist, the sexist, the sexual harrassing, the homophobe, the war monger, the apologist for genocide, and similar - nessie. On the other, all the rest.

well what did nessie say about this move
he has been mentoring Scott Nelson in IMC management for some time now I would be very suprised to see scott make a move with out nessies ok

I know where you can get a great deal on a bridge.

The battle for Indybay was over a year ago, when things fell into their present configuration -- one SF indymedia collective creating substantial pieces, including a print journal, and hosting vibrant if sometimes heated discussions, and the other SF indymedia collective creating essentially nothing anyone can detect except "Indybay is doing at all wrong" posts.

Compare:

http://sfbay.indymedia.org/comment_latest.php

http://sf.indymedia.org/comment_latest.php

... to see that the readership has voted with their feet.

@%<

> one SF indymedia collective creating substantial pieces, including a print journal, and hosting vibrant if sometimes heated discussions, and

all the good they do is totally negated by their propensity to to prevaricate, and their incoherent politics. They can never speak truth to power unless and until they demonstrate basic journalism skills and at least a modicum of integrity. In the meantime they abet our enemies by providing them a soapbox, and by discrediting the name Indymedia, with their incessant lying, and their passing along the lies of others.


>the other SF indymedia collective creating essentially nothing anyone can detect except "Indybay is doing at all wrong" posts.

We provide news you can trust, unlike this place.



> the readership has voted with their feet.

This is bogus logic. The number of comments has nothing whatsoever to do with the number of readers. Only a minuscule fraction of readers post comment. This is true, not just of our site and its readers, but of all such sites, all across the internet. This has always been true, even way back in the day of the 1200 baud dial up BBSs.

I have no more idea how many people read this site than Gehrig has how many read ours. Nor do I care. We’re not looking for quantity. We’re looking for quality. Appealing to the lowest common denominator is not what we’re about.

is the imc network about news or opinion? At best it combines both in a grassroots fashion, i'm hoping, and staying away from corpomainstream spin as much as possible--i expect most reasonable imcers wld agree.
Stay on the farSIDE when you slide over to nessies domain tho or the axe she will fall.

Are you talking of trolls? or spooks? kooks? outerspace lizards? chameleons?
you should calm down nessie and realize that most variations of "your enemies" are as harmless as the bathroom sink, and even the more persistent ones are recognized by the average reader and dealt with in their way as opposed to ONLY your way.
If? the truth is held by you and your pals at sfimc, exclusively...shit, give it up, asswipe.

nessie-obsessie: "Indymedia exists to provide an alternative to the ubiquitous propaganda mill of the corporate-government complex."

Yet you seek only to replace one kind of dogma-driven propaganda mill with another: the World According to Nessie. And no debate that threatens the slightest iota of your dogma is allowed on SF-IMC -- leaving the impression that (a) progressives can only preach to their own choir and (b) are so frightened of other opinions that they eradicate them at first sight. On top of that, you add insult -- stuff like your earlier crack about "not looking for the lowest common denominator" -- as a way to guarantee your site's insularity by driving off all but those willing to preach the Gospel of Nessie.

Now, maybe you honestly believe that your global revolution can take place fueled only by your own political doppelgangers. If so, though, that says more about your ego than it does about reality.

If you want to create a site called Nessie's Beacon of Pure Truth, feel free. Just don't call it an IMC.

@%<

"until they demonstrate basic journalism skills"

STILL WAITING TO HEAR ALL ABOUT NESSIE'S JOURNALISM CREDENTIALS

still waiting to hear about nessie's journalism credentials.(to say nothing of integrity)

suppose i might be waiting a while..........

>Indymedia exists to provide an alternative to the ubiquitous propaganda mill of the corporate-government complex. Indymedia exists to provide a voice for the Global Justice Movement. Indymedia exists to provide islands of truth in a sea of corporate-government lies.

I don't wee any of this in the POU. perhaps you can be specific. cite examples.

Also please define the Global Justice Movement. be specific.

And to state that your truth is the ABSOLUTE truth, your ideas ABSOLUTE ideas is a measure of your pompousness.

Yes nessie you are pompous, get over yourself. It does nothing but allienate you from people who may like to work torward the same goals as you do. for a 50 some-odd year old man, you have a lot of growing up to do.

Do you want Indymedia to be a soapbox for these assholes or do you want it to be a voice for Global Justice? It's up to you. Pick a side. Fight for what you believe in. Stay focused. Don't let these assholes disctact you with blather about me. It's not about me. It's about you. Do you stand for Global Justice or not? if you do, fight for it. If you don't, you're an asshole like them. There's no middle ground. You can't be neutral on a moving train.

no, I am not. But what you think is the problem is certainly not the problem. Of course we fight for global justice. but your idea of global justice must be defined quite a bit differently than how I define it.

You have made this conversation about you. don't be a prick and it wont be about you.

I'm still waiting for those specifics. please cite examples.

Do you want Indymedia to be a soapbox for these assholes or do you want it to be a voice for Global Justice?

well do you?

Don't expect nessie to ever define "Global Justice Movement." It's a pretty consistent rhetorical pattern for him -- when he knows he's backed into a corner (again), he starts flinging out ill-defined buzzwords. He'll shout, "are you for justice or against it? Choose a side" -- by which he means, if you think he's wrong on anything, you're somehow anti-justice.

Mind you, that deliberate evasiveness in terminology is a fundamental form of rhetorical duplicity. He can make the term mean whatever he needs it to mean at the time. Kinda like the Bush administration does with "patriotism." Which is why his "debate coach" persona is such a crock, since he's got such a major motes-and-beams problem going on there.

If nessie were really concerned that Indybay readers were being "distracted" by discussions of nessie, as he repeatedly insists (usually at the moment the flow goes against him), he would simply get the fuck off the board. But his ego does not allow that option.

And as far as my being a "mole" -- I have gone to great pains to spell out exactly where I stand, and my IMC collective knows it, as does anyone who's read many of my posts. But nessie-obsessie thinks I am The Enemy, and therefore he has to find _some_ way to convince you not to read my posts.

@%<

nessie-obsessie: "Debate is not an appropriate response to people like this."

translation: "Instead of accepting my simple mastery of truth itself, they argue back. That's not fair. They use actual logic and facts -- facts I'd never mention in a million years because they complicate my carefully crafted saga of Pure Good vs. Pure Eeee-e-e-evil. Besides, when I say something stoopid, they point out its stoopidity. It's bad for my image. That's why I'm trying -- so tediously and so ineffectively -- to get the entire IMC network to stick their collective fingers in their collective ears and say la-la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you. To enforce my desires on the network means making an end-run around the IMC consensus process, of course, but IMC consensus process rules are for little people, whereas I am Nessie the Great and Powerful, Master of Truth Itself. Now kiss this ring or your soul is damned to hell."

nessie-obsessie: "yammity yammity you, gentle reader, you who want to see Indymedia make a positive difference in the world yammity yammity"

translation: "See, little dreamer, we can make everything all better all at once, instantly, and all you have to do is sign away your free and independent mind, right here on the line that says 'Nessie should do my thinking for me, for lo, the world is all too complicated for such a feeble creature as myself to understand. Thanks, nessie, for relieving me of the burden of independent thought!' But _whatever_ you do, don't inquire into the actual IMC network consensus process, or you'll severely crimp my ability to convince you that I Alone am The _True_ IMCista upholding the _True_ IMCista values and that everyone else is just a 'hijacker,' a 'mole,' a 'disinformation specialist,' and so on. Now excuse me while, for the 52nd consecutive year, I fail to get over myself."

@%<

>Are you, or are you not, in favor of allowing Indymedia to be used to preach racism, misogyny, homophobia, war, exploitation and ecocide?

Kind of paraphrases the NcCarthite "are you, or have you been, a member of the communist party?".

>You can't be neutral on a moving train.

Prove to us *how* this site is a "moving train". Be specific.

>To fail to choose, *is* to choose.

Logical fallacy. Neglecting to chose is a choice only when the abstention is conscious and everyone agrees as to what the options are.

What you really meant is that a failure to choose is a choice when nessie deems it so.

nessie-obsessie: "Are you, or are you not, in favor of allowing Indymedia to be used to preach racism, misogyny, homophobia, war, exploitation and ecocide?"

As I said above, when he's backed into a corner he starts flinging out ill-defined buzzwords. Are you for motherhood, apple pie, love, and puppies, or are you _against_ them? Meanwhile, he's hoping that you won't pay close attention to the details -- such as the fact that he's arrogating onto himself the right to _define_ what constitutes "racism," what constitutes "mysogyny," and so on.

It's basic Orwell. Define the terms and you define the result. Except that nobody's letting poor nessie redefine the terms as he sees fit.

Whether or not your blind-'em-with-bumper-stickers trick ever worked, nessie, it obviously no longer does.

@%<

What goes around, comes around.
by nessie Thursday, Dec. 02, 2004 at 9:51 AM
They can't pay their bills because people wont give them money. People wont give them money because the act like complete assholes.

(and nessie you are the expert on this subject)

Considering that, as far as anyone can tell, you aren't doing anything at SF-IMC except running a website off volunteer effort, raising money to cover it shouldn't be that difficult.

@%<

three dogs and a rhesus monkey? the mayor's private number?

though it is more of a litter box anymore, i will concede you that.

they have drugs for that now, you know. i think they even tested them on animals, or inmates or something.

help is here, if only you'll reach out for it...

Looks like Victoria Indymedia is shut down.

Too bad. Now those anti-semites have to find another forum to spew their hatred.

"Neil from Bopund Together Books. The dude is an idiot."

Nessie isnt Neil.

Wowee

Read about it here

http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-uk-network/2005-January/0113-st.html

Holy crap alot of you take things alot too serously.

anybody here have a day of fun in their whole lives?

Not everyone is "spewing Hatred" or being "progessive" every

blessed second of the day people!

and Oh No the Zionists and Anti Zionists are banging on their

war drums, lobbing nasty insults at each other, Oh the

humanity, Peoples Ego's are lying strewn about the floor.

I guess my OPINION is that people shouldnt take things so

seriously because if you look outside the Box you'll see how

ya'll really are.