Publish to Newswire
Add an EventFrom the Open-Publishing Calendar
From the Open-Publishing Newswire
Indybay Feature
The day after the election resistance burns
The 11/3 day of protests ends in a spirited bonfire at Mission and 24th St. which lasts a suprisingly long time.
Add Your Comments
Comments
(Hide Comments)
Trantrums in the streets are not going to work.
Folks, these protest demonstrations are useful, but only to a point. They're positive to the point that they show that we, the opposition to the powers that be will not take the continued march down the hellish path to fascism will not come easy. But there is absolutely no positive outcome to be gained by setting garbage on fire in the streets or breaking windows. Even if these acts were caused by undercover agents of the state to discredit us, such acts serve that purpose quite well and we open ourselves up to that kind of sabotage by holding demonstrations such as this. There has to be a better way to resist the powers that be. Fortunately, I can think of several, but all of them require that you be serious activists and be willing to do a lot of boring mundane work:
(1) We must keep pounding away at the lies spread by both parties about the illegal and immoral invasion and genocied that is happening in Iraq. We must continue to expose the lies and coverups behind the Bush / PNAC engineered 9/11 conspiracy. We must continue to expose the so-called "war on terrorism" for what it really is: a war *of* terrorism. Most people, including many that voted for Bush don't know all of the truth or they would hardly have relected him.
(2) We must continue to expose all of the rampant election fraud, including doctored voter rolls, voter intimidation, and the "black box" voting irregularities caused by the diebold machines. These efforts are actually having an effect. I suspect very highly that this election was engineered to assure a Bush victory by a big enough margin to make it *seem* like he was "legitimately" elected even though he wasn't so that we'd all just shut up and go away and stop complaining about this obvious theft of our right to accountability from the government. Don't let them get away with this! Keep fighting this fight. Those of you who have been involved in that fight are making progress. Don't let this setback stop you.
(3) The alternative energy magazine "Solar Today" described the U.S. as potentially the "Saudi Arabia" of wind energy. Guess where the biggest potential lies? You guessed it, the reddest of the deep "red" Redpublican states. If the workers who have been devastated by the capitalist globalization schemes and the family farmers whose farms have been sucked up by corporate agro-business could be given the power to rebuild their community through this great potential, it will not only turn these red states a very deep *green*, and utterly undermine the Republican Party's stronghold, we'll undermine the stranglehold that the fossil fuel cartel has on us by a long distance. This is a great opportunity, but to seize it we have to appeal to a lot of people we tend to turn our noses up at. we may have to temporarily endure some prejudicial attitudes, but in the long run these folks will unlearn them when they regain their lost freedoms and gain new freedom they've never had before. The Native Americasn tribes in South Dakota are already starting to lead the way. Let's give them a hand as well. If anyone is intersted, I can point you in the right direction if you want to join in these efforts.
(4) Meanwhile, I am going to keep doing what I do, and that is organizing One Big Union to overthrow wage slavery a scourge enabled by both the Republicans and Democrats.
Folks, please don't set your course on a path of self destruction. The long term results will only be increased repression, and there is enough of that already. Radicals, activists, and anarchists can either take on leadership roles in progressive causes or they can marginalize themselves. Whether well intentioned or not, demonstrations like these tend to discredit us. (take it from me a veteran of several such demonstrationsover the past decade).
Folks, these protest demonstrations are useful, but only to a point. They're positive to the point that they show that we, the opposition to the powers that be will not take the continued march down the hellish path to fascism will not come easy. But there is absolutely no positive outcome to be gained by setting garbage on fire in the streets or breaking windows. Even if these acts were caused by undercover agents of the state to discredit us, such acts serve that purpose quite well and we open ourselves up to that kind of sabotage by holding demonstrations such as this. There has to be a better way to resist the powers that be. Fortunately, I can think of several, but all of them require that you be serious activists and be willing to do a lot of boring mundane work:
(1) We must keep pounding away at the lies spread by both parties about the illegal and immoral invasion and genocied that is happening in Iraq. We must continue to expose the lies and coverups behind the Bush / PNAC engineered 9/11 conspiracy. We must continue to expose the so-called "war on terrorism" for what it really is: a war *of* terrorism. Most people, including many that voted for Bush don't know all of the truth or they would hardly have relected him.
(2) We must continue to expose all of the rampant election fraud, including doctored voter rolls, voter intimidation, and the "black box" voting irregularities caused by the diebold machines. These efforts are actually having an effect. I suspect very highly that this election was engineered to assure a Bush victory by a big enough margin to make it *seem* like he was "legitimately" elected even though he wasn't so that we'd all just shut up and go away and stop complaining about this obvious theft of our right to accountability from the government. Don't let them get away with this! Keep fighting this fight. Those of you who have been involved in that fight are making progress. Don't let this setback stop you.
(3) The alternative energy magazine "Solar Today" described the U.S. as potentially the "Saudi Arabia" of wind energy. Guess where the biggest potential lies? You guessed it, the reddest of the deep "red" Redpublican states. If the workers who have been devastated by the capitalist globalization schemes and the family farmers whose farms have been sucked up by corporate agro-business could be given the power to rebuild their community through this great potential, it will not only turn these red states a very deep *green*, and utterly undermine the Republican Party's stronghold, we'll undermine the stranglehold that the fossil fuel cartel has on us by a long distance. This is a great opportunity, but to seize it we have to appeal to a lot of people we tend to turn our noses up at. we may have to temporarily endure some prejudicial attitudes, but in the long run these folks will unlearn them when they regain their lost freedoms and gain new freedom they've never had before. The Native Americasn tribes in South Dakota are already starting to lead the way. Let's give them a hand as well. If anyone is intersted, I can point you in the right direction if you want to join in these efforts.
(4) Meanwhile, I am going to keep doing what I do, and that is organizing One Big Union to overthrow wage slavery a scourge enabled by both the Republicans and Democrats.
Folks, please don't set your course on a path of self destruction. The long term results will only be increased repression, and there is enough of that already. Radicals, activists, and anarchists can either take on leadership roles in progressive causes or they can marginalize themselves. Whether well intentioned or not, demonstrations like these tend to discredit us. (take it from me a veteran of several such demonstrationsover the past decade).
They used to say that when the IWW blew up rail road tracks.
every time a republican was elected
I don't actually recall any evidence of the IWW blowing up or burning down anything.
In fact, such charges were generally circulated by the employing class to try and discredit the IWW (unfortunately such efforts often worked). What's even more depressing is that young radicals, especially *ANARCHISTS* not only believe such lies, but they actuallythink that such acts were *positive* examples of direct action at the point of production!
How stupid is that?!? Think hard. If you wanted to capture control of the machinery of production (in order to share it amongs all of the workers) would you first blow it up?!? That's like curing the disease by killing the patient.
The IWW rarely, if *ever* engaged in wanton property destruction. You need to go back and check your IWW history much more carefully. I suggest you start here:
(1) Myths about the IWW: http://www.iww.org/culture/myths/
(2) What does Sabotage *really* Mean? - look at the bottom of http://www.iww.org/organize/strategy/
(3) How did the IWW **actually** use Economic Direct Action to win strikes? - http://www.iww.org/unions/iu120/rowan/
Do yourself a favor. Don't get your IWW history from sources like Bob Black, the Fifth Estate, or Anarchy Magazine. They do more to discredit the good name of the IWW than they help. Get IWW history from reputable sources:
(4) http://www.iww.org/culture/library/
In fact, such charges were generally circulated by the employing class to try and discredit the IWW (unfortunately such efforts often worked). What's even more depressing is that young radicals, especially *ANARCHISTS* not only believe such lies, but they actuallythink that such acts were *positive* examples of direct action at the point of production!
How stupid is that?!? Think hard. If you wanted to capture control of the machinery of production (in order to share it amongs all of the workers) would you first blow it up?!? That's like curing the disease by killing the patient.
The IWW rarely, if *ever* engaged in wanton property destruction. You need to go back and check your IWW history much more carefully. I suggest you start here:
(1) Myths about the IWW: http://www.iww.org/culture/myths/
(2) What does Sabotage *really* Mean? - look at the bottom of http://www.iww.org/organize/strategy/
(3) How did the IWW **actually** use Economic Direct Action to win strikes? - http://www.iww.org/unions/iu120/rowan/
Do yourself a favor. Don't get your IWW history from sources like Bob Black, the Fifth Estate, or Anarchy Magazine. They do more to discredit the good name of the IWW than they help. Get IWW history from reputable sources:
(4) http://www.iww.org/culture/library/
Allright, uncle you win.
Before you jump to conclusion for the name of my cat, I'll read up on what you posted.
Before you jump to conclusion for the name of my cat, I'll read up on what you posted.
bad news for you: if the IWW is really grassroots-controlled, you are going to have to deal with all kinds of tactics. and if you are going to be part of any large scale social movements, at some point you are just going to have to accept that stuff gets smashed.
i think your problem here is that you confuse a form of political expression with the tactic of sabotage.
sabotage is not just a tactic of labor. but even where it is a tactic of labor, youre wrong with your narrow definition that limits sabotage to "organized inefficiency" as opposed to destruction of property. theres french farmers dumping tomatoes in the road, setting produce on fire, the IWW scabbing as waiters (from your own damn website) and fucking with the food. that, and countless other examples, constitute straight up destruction. labor sabotage is NOT ONLY organized inefficiency (which is good too).
fucking shit up in the streets (which ill call smashy smashy) is a different creature. it closer to a form of political expression than a direct action, like sabotage.
there are tons of reasons why smashing stuff is important, in every kind of movement, because it has a *psychological* effect, on the participants. i think too many of us fall into the liberal trap of focusing all of your attention outwardly on the behaviors and opinions of people not considered part of the "movement" - we need to look internally at ourselves as well.
smashy smashy looks bad to them (the middle and/or working class, i suppose?) . smashy smashy alienates them? maybe so. but its not all about "them". not all of "them" need to be or even should be "convinced".
smashy smashy happens for a reason. it feels good. everybody watching the burning effigy of bush was happy. they burned off steam. they sent a message NION couldnt send through speeching. and messages are important.
they sustained a positive energy. and energy is important.
so when i hear well meaning people like you talk shit on the old smashy-smashy, i think of kids in Palestine throwing rocks, i think of the korean labor movement and their street fighting, perhaps even boston punks throwing snowballs at british troops. i think of two hundred years of popular resistance whose turning points hinge on acts, expression, and representation that in and of itself is futile beyond a doubt. But in the larger context of things, it is an indispensable part of every social movement.
But, if you cant see it as useful, fine. At the very least, you can acknowledge that it is inevitable. Clearly, human beings consider smashing stuff up to be a legitimate and basic form of expressing anger, and both anger and expression are a necessary component of any social movement.
i think your problem here is that you confuse a form of political expression with the tactic of sabotage.
sabotage is not just a tactic of labor. but even where it is a tactic of labor, youre wrong with your narrow definition that limits sabotage to "organized inefficiency" as opposed to destruction of property. theres french farmers dumping tomatoes in the road, setting produce on fire, the IWW scabbing as waiters (from your own damn website) and fucking with the food. that, and countless other examples, constitute straight up destruction. labor sabotage is NOT ONLY organized inefficiency (which is good too).
fucking shit up in the streets (which ill call smashy smashy) is a different creature. it closer to a form of political expression than a direct action, like sabotage.
there are tons of reasons why smashing stuff is important, in every kind of movement, because it has a *psychological* effect, on the participants. i think too many of us fall into the liberal trap of focusing all of your attention outwardly on the behaviors and opinions of people not considered part of the "movement" - we need to look internally at ourselves as well.
smashy smashy looks bad to them (the middle and/or working class, i suppose?) . smashy smashy alienates them? maybe so. but its not all about "them". not all of "them" need to be or even should be "convinced".
smashy smashy happens for a reason. it feels good. everybody watching the burning effigy of bush was happy. they burned off steam. they sent a message NION couldnt send through speeching. and messages are important.
they sustained a positive energy. and energy is important.
so when i hear well meaning people like you talk shit on the old smashy-smashy, i think of kids in Palestine throwing rocks, i think of the korean labor movement and their street fighting, perhaps even boston punks throwing snowballs at british troops. i think of two hundred years of popular resistance whose turning points hinge on acts, expression, and representation that in and of itself is futile beyond a doubt. But in the larger context of things, it is an indispensable part of every social movement.
But, if you cant see it as useful, fine. At the very least, you can acknowledge that it is inevitable. Clearly, human beings consider smashing stuff up to be a legitimate and basic form of expressing anger, and both anger and expression are a necessary component of any social movement.
i'm glad to see there was a bonfire last night. wish i'd been there. there needs to be fire in the streets as a reaction to this. i'm glad some folks in sf were able to provide.
(and besides, big deal, a small fire in the middle of the street, not causing any damage around it.)
the christian right wants us to die. they want utter control of our lives. the election was a great victory for them. what are we supposed to do, play nice?
(and besides, big deal, a small fire in the middle of the street, not causing any damage around it.)
the christian right wants us to die. they want utter control of our lives. the election was a great victory for them. what are we supposed to do, play nice?
besides, samhain, or halloween, is a celtic fire festival, when bonfires were/are lit across the land. it's appropriate to have this as a response.
sorry, i keep wanting to add stuff. (sorry i didn't write an essay like steve o and copy it to every single post about the action, saying "this was wrong!")
i just want to be clear that i'm not dissing organizing. revolution is NOT made by (mostly) young folks setting fires in the streets. this is glamorous and fun, but is NOT going to make the social change we want to see. there is a lot of mundane work to be done, especially in battling the individualism of amerikan society (of course, if we look historically, once upon a time we were more class-conscious and acted more collectively), getting people to stop believing the right wing's lies, and actually organizing ourselves ("ourselves" in the broad sense, not in the activist ghetto sense) into groups who can act collectively for the common good.
but again, a fire in the street was a totally appropriate response to the election victories for the christian right. and if you can't have a fire in the street in san francisco, where's it gonna happen? people need to express their anger. it's cathartic. you can't just swallow it all in. (oh wait - you're supposed to do that in patriarchal american culture - then beat your wife and children later, or drive your car fast or something.) express it, and then keep organizing, writing, disemminating info, teaching, resisting, etc.
i just want to be clear that i'm not dissing organizing. revolution is NOT made by (mostly) young folks setting fires in the streets. this is glamorous and fun, but is NOT going to make the social change we want to see. there is a lot of mundane work to be done, especially in battling the individualism of amerikan society (of course, if we look historically, once upon a time we were more class-conscious and acted more collectively), getting people to stop believing the right wing's lies, and actually organizing ourselves ("ourselves" in the broad sense, not in the activist ghetto sense) into groups who can act collectively for the common good.
but again, a fire in the street was a totally appropriate response to the election victories for the christian right. and if you can't have a fire in the street in san francisco, where's it gonna happen? people need to express their anger. it's cathartic. you can't just swallow it all in. (oh wait - you're supposed to do that in patriarchal american culture - then beat your wife and children later, or drive your car fast or something.) express it, and then keep organizing, writing, disemminating info, teaching, resisting, etc.
As much as reading steve's condescending comments pisses me off, there is a grain of salt in the shit pile. I think that any expression of radical sentiment is worth it, with exceptions where people go to jail for long periods because of misplaced hopes or lack of understandings.
But all that said, window smashy + provocative banners = revolution?
I am not really certain that that is really a true path. It is fine, perhaps a little passe and predictable. Like Madonna says "Express Yourself", but what is the bigger picture.
As I have gotten older I have become a little more reflective about stategy. I totally support young people doing whatever they feel like they need to do to express themselves, but other people should be working on different levels, taking lessons learned, and applying their beliefs to different tactics. That doesn't mean wingnutting out with the 911 thing or other leftist compulsive behavioral problems. All that said, I don't there is one true or right path. If there was, there would be alot more cohessiveness to movements. It sucks that the best organizing that has been done in this country has been done by religious extremists/bigots/shitheads. What can we learn from them? Whatever it is, I cannot accept the values that they are pushing. Those values might be what america is about now, and fuck that, makes me want to burn symbols of this country, fuck it toss a few new testaments in too.
What can you do when people are spoon feed idealogy that does challenge them or inspire thought? Maybe we could do a benefit to send steve to the Jesusland to show them radicals are not freak, race mixing, butt munchers with anger management problems. WTF, we don't know anything today that we didn't know 3 days ago, it isn't just class war it is a race war, a cultural war, and a religious war. Be clear who your allies are....
But all that said, window smashy + provocative banners = revolution?
I am not really certain that that is really a true path. It is fine, perhaps a little passe and predictable. Like Madonna says "Express Yourself", but what is the bigger picture.
As I have gotten older I have become a little more reflective about stategy. I totally support young people doing whatever they feel like they need to do to express themselves, but other people should be working on different levels, taking lessons learned, and applying their beliefs to different tactics. That doesn't mean wingnutting out with the 911 thing or other leftist compulsive behavioral problems. All that said, I don't there is one true or right path. If there was, there would be alot more cohessiveness to movements. It sucks that the best organizing that has been done in this country has been done by religious extremists/bigots/shitheads. What can we learn from them? Whatever it is, I cannot accept the values that they are pushing. Those values might be what america is about now, and fuck that, makes me want to burn symbols of this country, fuck it toss a few new testaments in too.
What can you do when people are spoon feed idealogy that does challenge them or inspire thought? Maybe we could do a benefit to send steve to the Jesusland to show them radicals are not freak, race mixing, butt munchers with anger management problems. WTF, we don't know anything today that we didn't know 3 days ago, it isn't just class war it is a race war, a cultural war, and a religious war. Be clear who your allies are....
Here we go again. I was afraid y'all wouldn't listen to me, but I guess I should expect this.
It's an incredibly pathetic commentary on the left that our range of revolutionary tactics is limited to setting fires in the streets.
now, i don't think demos where windows get smashed are a long-term organizing strategy. far from it. there is a lot of mundane work to be done on the ground. "revolution" (ha ha - we're so, so far from that now) is not just the glamour of fire in the streets, but is the organizing that moves people from being passive consumers to a more collective consciousness and ability to act, individually and as collective groups.but i see this as a demo in reaction to the war, and in reaction to the election. people are angry. don't tell them to swallow their anger. it needs to be expressed. hello! people are dying! hello!
Well friend, perhaps you should spend some time outside of the activist ghetto. I can tell you for a fact that these tactics won't even go over very well with avid Kerry supporters, much less Christian fundamentalists. Heck, even people who went to the demonstration were turned off by the breakaway march. I expect you, or another stubborn activist will now start denouncing these critics as "wimps" or "sell-outs". Here we go again, down the same doomed path.
I am angry too, but anger misdirected is self destructive.
[F]ire in the streets is a totally appropriate response to tuesday's election. hello - the christian right had a massive victory! what are we supposed to do, roll over and play nice? those people want to see us and our kind dead, or better yet, slave-laboring for them or at home and barefoot and pregnant.
These people are manipulated, frightened, working class human beings. They have jumped on the right wing bandwagon because the religious right has spent the past fifty years or so doing hard *work* to organize a program (even if it is insane and demented) that addresses issues that these people care about. Meanwhile the Democrats have abandonded issues that really effect these people (such as economic issues, jobs, and energy policy). Those of us "left" keep supporting these Democrats because we cannot seem to figure out how to build a mass based movement. If we were successful in doing so, the Democrats would be moving leftward, not rightward. People are not *born* fundamentalists, they *become* fundamentalists. 100 years ago the ancestors of many of these fundamentalists were radicals. Some of them were IWW members. What happened?
The answer can be found in books like "What's the Matter With Kansas?"
The *solution* to the problem is going to involve us doing lots of *work*, most of it hard and boring, but all of it essential. It will take years, and it will require us to get outside of the activist ghetto. We'll have to make alliances with people who drive cars, eat meat, belong to churches, listen to country music, and even carry guns (though not everyone will be like this of course). I'm sorry that this sounds condescending or unpalatable to you, but that's just the way it is.
Yeah - one question to ask with regards to worrying about what regular folks are thinking about our fires and strolls through the Mission and Tenderloin wearing black clothes is "who is watching"? Not many people locally, so we're safe. I would not advocate a thing like Berkeley reclaim the streets in Kansas City, but we're not about to do that. My elderly aunt on an oxygen tank did have to sprint across a field to avoid the pepper spray that Colorado Springs police released on a very toned-down antiwar march when a few of them stepped into the street - so it's not like it even takes much to create a scene.
Anyway, I put my pictures of the pissed off kids yesterday on German indymedia, because showing the europeans that stuff is probably the best purpose for it, so they don't dislike us so much.
Where Steve is 100% right is that the biggest problem of democrats and liberals is that there are so many upper-middle and middle-middle class liberals who score a big zero on class consciousness. I know, because I'm from a middle-middle class background, and it is so easy to think you are a liberal because you are pro-choice, pro-environment and maybe don't attend church. Think about this when watching TV and movies, and you will notice tons of messages by 'liberals' that the cause of all our problems is backwards americans who shop at Wal*mart, eat at McDonalds, and they're "trailer trash". As though people with bad taste just haven't learned about the merits of expensive organic food are bringing us down and retaining conservative politicians. I've seen college kids even hold 'white trash' theme parties, which is even worse than 'pimps and hos'. Berkeley is actually one of the centers of the liberal mentality that bad consumer choice and taste is most of the problem (i.e. that the people at Taco Bell, rather than the company itself is the problem). Luckily, in Berkeley it is sort of in-house, and people from Fresno don't regularly interact with people expressing the attitude.
An example would be this guy who was probably gay with a "fuck middle america" sign yesterday. I saw a man who was black come out to shake his hand at 8th and Market and cheer him on, so it's okay if people do that inside of San Francisco, but I wouldn't put his picture up. If people outside the bubble see stuff like that, it is like we are blaming the victim of bad economic policies. I don't really have to even explain this here. We can all understand many how people in San Francisco and parts of new York etc. were totally victimized due to sexuality/race/religion and so forth, but acting as though the working class created George Bush and his policies is wrong - and I think this is precisely what we have to solve.
The bullshit they're saying in the editorial columns today about 'values voting' misses the point. Democrats don't have to capitulate on gay rights because it is such a piddling point compared to everything else.
Unfortunately, there aren't nearly as many progressives (meaning nonsectarians who are more left than social-values liberals) as these liberals who don't understand class. This means that moderates, conservatives, and nonvoters are far more likely to encounter a dumb democrat than they are a progressive - so it is probably a better idea to work on reforming their bad behavior, than to reform the bad habits of marginal leftists. I might rethink this if a dumb leftist group reforms the SLA in Berkeley and abducts an Olsen twin and starts robbing Safeways and thereby really really making us look bad.
Anyway, I put my pictures of the pissed off kids yesterday on German indymedia, because showing the europeans that stuff is probably the best purpose for it, so they don't dislike us so much.
Where Steve is 100% right is that the biggest problem of democrats and liberals is that there are so many upper-middle and middle-middle class liberals who score a big zero on class consciousness. I know, because I'm from a middle-middle class background, and it is so easy to think you are a liberal because you are pro-choice, pro-environment and maybe don't attend church. Think about this when watching TV and movies, and you will notice tons of messages by 'liberals' that the cause of all our problems is backwards americans who shop at Wal*mart, eat at McDonalds, and they're "trailer trash". As though people with bad taste just haven't learned about the merits of expensive organic food are bringing us down and retaining conservative politicians. I've seen college kids even hold 'white trash' theme parties, which is even worse than 'pimps and hos'. Berkeley is actually one of the centers of the liberal mentality that bad consumer choice and taste is most of the problem (i.e. that the people at Taco Bell, rather than the company itself is the problem). Luckily, in Berkeley it is sort of in-house, and people from Fresno don't regularly interact with people expressing the attitude.
An example would be this guy who was probably gay with a "fuck middle america" sign yesterday. I saw a man who was black come out to shake his hand at 8th and Market and cheer him on, so it's okay if people do that inside of San Francisco, but I wouldn't put his picture up. If people outside the bubble see stuff like that, it is like we are blaming the victim of bad economic policies. I don't really have to even explain this here. We can all understand many how people in San Francisco and parts of new York etc. were totally victimized due to sexuality/race/religion and so forth, but acting as though the working class created George Bush and his policies is wrong - and I think this is precisely what we have to solve.
The bullshit they're saying in the editorial columns today about 'values voting' misses the point. Democrats don't have to capitulate on gay rights because it is such a piddling point compared to everything else.
Unfortunately, there aren't nearly as many progressives (meaning nonsectarians who are more left than social-values liberals) as these liberals who don't understand class. This means that moderates, conservatives, and nonvoters are far more likely to encounter a dumb democrat than they are a progressive - so it is probably a better idea to work on reforming their bad behavior, than to reform the bad habits of marginal leftists. I might rethink this if a dumb leftist group reforms the SLA in Berkeley and abducts an Olsen twin and starts robbing Safeways and thereby really really making us look bad.
Response to "Meh"
bad news for you: if the IWW is really grassroots-controlled, you are going to have to deal with all kinds of tactics. and if you are going to be part of any large scale social movements, at some point you are just going to have to accept that stuff gets smashed.sabotage is not just a tactic of labor. but even where it is a tactic of labor, youre wrong with your narrow definition that limits sabotage to "organized inefficiency" as opposed to destruction of property. theres french farmers dumping tomatoes in the road, setting produce on fire, the IWW scabbing as waiters (from your own damn website) and fucking with the food. that, and countless other examples, constitute straight up destruction. labor sabotage is NOT ONLY organized inefficiency (which is good too).
Meh, exactly how much time and energy have you spent in actual union organizing efforts? I have a good ten years experience. Don't presume to tell me what I have to deal with. I know from experience. I can tell you that when sabotage happens, I do deal with it. I usually advise other workers to be discreet and strategic if they must resort to sabotage. That said, most unorganized workers are pretty timid (if they weren't they'd be organized most likely)
fucking shit up in the streets (which ill call smashy smashy) is a different creature. it closer to a form of political expression than a direct action, like sabotage.
Great, so now you're going to build a movement by babbling like a pre-schooler. Oh yeah, that'll help.
You know, I used to ignore experienced activists who told me exactly what I am telling you now. Isn't this bitterly ironic. I hope you have the freedom to tell the next generation the same thing (because believe me, if you stick around long enough and don't become an anti-social wingnut, you will).
smashy smashy happens for a reason. it feels good. everybody watching the burning effigy of bush was happy. they burned off steam. they sent a message NION couldnt send through speeching. and messages are important. [T]hey sustained a positive energy. and energy is important.
Once again it's a sad commentary on the left when activists like yourself see only two very narrow choices (speeches or vandalism). There's a wide range of choices if you'd just explore them. As for sustaining positive energy, perhaps the fire did so within the activist ghetto, but the message it sends outside is that we're just a bunch of thugs. It also paints a perfect caricature of the left for the right wing assholes who manipulate the exploited workers and farmers in the so-called "red" states. Spend some time n the real world friend.
so when i hear well meaning people like you talk shit on the old smashy-smashy, i think of kids in Palestine throwing rocks, i think of the korean labor movement and their street fighting, perhaps even boston punks throwing snowballs at british troops. i think of two hundred years of popular resistance whose turning points hinge on acts, expression, and representation that in and of itself is futile beyond a doubt. But in the larger context of things, it is an indispensable part of every social movement.But, if you cant see it as useful, fine. At the very least, you can acknowledge that it is inevitable. Clearly, human beings consider smashing stuff up to be a legitimate and basic form of expressing anger, and both anger and expression are a necessary component of any social movement.
I suppose it is inevitable, but as for the examples you just mentioned, when someone starts actually bulldozing your house, I suppose I would support you throwing rocks (assuming that was the only tactic you had left).
History glorifies acts such as throwing snowballs at British gun thugs, but the actual revolutionary acts that changed history were a lot more subtle (such as a revolt by thousands of New England farmers, but who remembers them?)
The IWW is romanticized for "sabotage" and "free speech fights", but the biggest IWW victories were won after the IWW started to organize direct action at the point of production. Read history carefully. The romanticization of vandalism gets a lot of ink, but the real effective actions are often hidden. Remember that most history is written from the standpoint of maintaining the status quo. Do you really think they'd freely give us the answers? No, they would try to downplay the acts that were really successful and instead encourage us to be self destructive.
Dear Tkat:
As I have gotten older I have become a little more reflective about stategy. I totally support young people doing whatever they feel like they need to do to express themselves, but other people should be working on different levels, taking lessons learned, and applying their beliefs to different tactics. That doesn't mean wingnutting out with the 911 thing or other leftist compulsive behavioral problems. All that said, I don't there is one true or right path. If there was, there would be alot more cohessiveness to movements. It sucks that the best organizing that has been done in this country has been done by religious extremists/bigots/shitheads. What can we learn from them? Whatever it is, I cannot accept the values that they are pushing. Those values might be what america is about now, and fuck that, makes me want to burn symbols of this country, fuck it toss a few new testaments in too. What can you do when people are spoon feed idealogy that does challenge them or inspire thought? Maybe we could do a benefit to send steve to the Jesusland to show them radicals are not freak, race mixing, butt munchers with anger management problems. WTF, we don't know anything today that we didn't know 3 days ago, it isn't just class war it is a race war, a cultural war, and a religious war. Be clear who your allies are....
Nowhere do I suggest that we have to accept the nonsense pushed by the religious right. If you'd bother to read what I wrote carefully, you'd see that I said that their extremism is a symptom of there being a lack of a left alternative. The Democrats have conclusively proven through their continued ineptitude, that they're not it.
America is *not* about these "values". The only reason why people think that it *is* is because the left han't a cohenernt organizing program. The left seems broken into four categories:
(1) Clinging to shadows of the liberal past (by uncritically supporting the democrats and business union bureaucrats even though they have long since sold out);
(2) Clinging to the shadows of the Marxist past (and I needn't say anything more about *that*);
(3) Issue-specific politics, which are useful, but limiting;
(4) Hiding in lifestyle activist ghettoes and turning noses up at people who're "ignorant boobs".
What we need is a unified movement to build a new society. It's not going to happen by simply marching in the streets and burning images of Bush in effigy.
There is a huge opportunity for the left, and that is the possibility of a garssroots based renewable energy movement. If we take the opportunity, in 20 years the religious right and the neo-cons will be as lost and hopeless as the Stalinists are now, but it will take lots of work.
I'm sorry if you think this sounds condescending, but this is how I see it.
"It's an incredibly pathetic commentary on the left that our range of revolutionary tactics is limited to setting fires in the streets."
uh, did i say this? no. clearly, it's not a long-term organizing strategy, as i said below: " now, i don't think demos where windows get smashed are a long-term organizing strategy. far from it. there is a lot of mundane work to be done on the ground. "revolution" (ha ha - we're so, so far from that now) is not just the glamour of fire in the streets, but is the organizing that moves people from being passive consumers to a more collective consciousness and ability to act, individually and as collective groups."
"I can tell you for a fact that these tactics won't even go over very well with avid Kerry supporters, much less Christian fundamentalists."
oh, are we looking to appeal to christian fundamentalists now? easier if you're straight and not a "freak" in the eyes of middle amerika, my dear. really, i don't think last night's demo was about appealing to people - it was more about reacting to an election that's already happened, and to what bush and co. have done in iraq, etc. uh, and if you are thinking of going out and appealing to jesusland, it might be more strategic to get out of the bay area and go talk to folks outside. somehow i don't think a medium-sized post-election demo in sf is going to make a difference either way to them.
"Heck, even people who went to the demonstration were turned off by the breakaway march. I expect you, or another stubborn activist will now start denouncing these critics as "wimps" or "sell-outs". Here we go again, down the same doomed path."
i wasn't there (regret), and so didn't go on the breakaway march. it does sound like, from reading other posts, that it may not have been the most tactically smart decision to go off downtown later in a small-ish group. however, i did think burning an effigy and making a fire was a decent channeling of energy.
"100 years ago the ancestors of many of these fundamentalists were radicals. Some of them were IWW members. What happened?
The answer can be found in books like "What's the Matter With Kansas?" "
been looking forward to reading it as soon as it's out in paperback.
"The *solution* to the problem is going to involve us doing lots of *work*, most of it hard and boring, but all of it essential. It will take years, and it will require us to get outside of the activist ghetto. We'll have to make alliances with people who drive cars, eat meat, belong to churches, listen to country music, and even carry guns (though not everyone will be like this of course). I'm sorry that this sounds condescending or unpalatable to you, but that's just the way it is."
what makes you think i don't drive a car, eat meat and listen to country music? (ok, i don't really listen to country music and no gun yet.)
don't assume all critics of your paternalistic attitude are vegan purist fundamentalists, please. and i do agree w/ you somewhat, in terms of organizing, going beyond pyrotechnics at demos, etc. but you do come off as totally patronizing. do you really expect the kids you're trying to reach to listen?
uh, did i say this? no. clearly, it's not a long-term organizing strategy, as i said below: " now, i don't think demos where windows get smashed are a long-term organizing strategy. far from it. there is a lot of mundane work to be done on the ground. "revolution" (ha ha - we're so, so far from that now) is not just the glamour of fire in the streets, but is the organizing that moves people from being passive consumers to a more collective consciousness and ability to act, individually and as collective groups."
"I can tell you for a fact that these tactics won't even go over very well with avid Kerry supporters, much less Christian fundamentalists."
oh, are we looking to appeal to christian fundamentalists now? easier if you're straight and not a "freak" in the eyes of middle amerika, my dear. really, i don't think last night's demo was about appealing to people - it was more about reacting to an election that's already happened, and to what bush and co. have done in iraq, etc. uh, and if you are thinking of going out and appealing to jesusland, it might be more strategic to get out of the bay area and go talk to folks outside. somehow i don't think a medium-sized post-election demo in sf is going to make a difference either way to them.
"Heck, even people who went to the demonstration were turned off by the breakaway march. I expect you, or another stubborn activist will now start denouncing these critics as "wimps" or "sell-outs". Here we go again, down the same doomed path."
i wasn't there (regret), and so didn't go on the breakaway march. it does sound like, from reading other posts, that it may not have been the most tactically smart decision to go off downtown later in a small-ish group. however, i did think burning an effigy and making a fire was a decent channeling of energy.
"100 years ago the ancestors of many of these fundamentalists were radicals. Some of them were IWW members. What happened?
The answer can be found in books like "What's the Matter With Kansas?" "
been looking forward to reading it as soon as it's out in paperback.
"The *solution* to the problem is going to involve us doing lots of *work*, most of it hard and boring, but all of it essential. It will take years, and it will require us to get outside of the activist ghetto. We'll have to make alliances with people who drive cars, eat meat, belong to churches, listen to country music, and even carry guns (though not everyone will be like this of course). I'm sorry that this sounds condescending or unpalatable to you, but that's just the way it is."
what makes you think i don't drive a car, eat meat and listen to country music? (ok, i don't really listen to country music and no gun yet.)
don't assume all critics of your paternalistic attitude are vegan purist fundamentalists, please. and i do agree w/ you somewhat, in terms of organizing, going beyond pyrotechnics at demos, etc. but you do come off as totally patronizing. do you really expect the kids you're trying to reach to listen?
and a resistance-cultural one.
i would love to hear some ideas about how to change that, without waiting for some guy's book to come out in paperback.
does only steve (and the book he's read) have ideas around here?
i would love to hear some ideas about how to change that, without waiting for some guy's book to come out in paperback.
does only steve (and the book he's read) have ideas around here?
"There is a huge opportunity for the left, and that is the possibility of a garssroots based renewable energy movement. If we take the opportunity, in 20 years the religious right and the neo-cons will be as lost and hopeless as the Stalinists are now, but it will take lots of work."
What? We will be the energy barons of 2020 with our semi conductors and leds. Our power will outshine the light of the lord. I am not sure that science no matter how much more enlightened (badump) we become, will ever overcome the cultist community of the christian right. Hate and moral supremacy are their own energy generators. I think that could be part of a solution, but should people drop direct action and "lifestyle'' politics and donate their time to grassroots energy projects? Bio desiel movement is already doing this, with real peoples' cars.
I think you and some other person railed against the activist ghetto? Which is always fun to do, but what the hell are you waisting time on that for? People need community, look at the christians again for guidance on that. At some point, being part of a cultural ghettto just doesn't work for me. But why bother and fuck with people and their lifestyle choices? Anti vegans are as lame as the vegans, it is like real hot dogs vs. tofu hot dogs, they both suck. yuk.
What? We will be the energy barons of 2020 with our semi conductors and leds. Our power will outshine the light of the lord. I am not sure that science no matter how much more enlightened (badump) we become, will ever overcome the cultist community of the christian right. Hate and moral supremacy are their own energy generators. I think that could be part of a solution, but should people drop direct action and "lifestyle'' politics and donate their time to grassroots energy projects? Bio desiel movement is already doing this, with real peoples' cars.
I think you and some other person railed against the activist ghetto? Which is always fun to do, but what the hell are you waisting time on that for? People need community, look at the christians again for guidance on that. At some point, being part of a cultural ghettto just doesn't work for me. But why bother and fuck with people and their lifestyle choices? Anti vegans are as lame as the vegans, it is like real hot dogs vs. tofu hot dogs, they both suck. yuk.
yeah, the material basis thing isnt gonna cut it, with all due respect to our marxist friends-- as long as people make decisions on an irrational basis like xian fundamentalism.
we really need to um aggressively promote what i think is currently disparaged as "secular humanism," ie the power of enlightenment type reason. rational thought is still a radical notion. thats whats so sad.
how to make it cool again. how to posit it as a better alternative to abiding in the lord. that really is the question, seems to me.
we really need to um aggressively promote what i think is currently disparaged as "secular humanism," ie the power of enlightenment type reason. rational thought is still a radical notion. thats whats so sad.
how to make it cool again. how to posit it as a better alternative to abiding in the lord. that really is the question, seems to me.
I've read some of Steve's articles and found them well worth reading. And of course I fully agree that nothing is to be achieved by breaking windows. However, NOBODY at the rally was breaking windows. So why talk to us as though we were?
Bush was burned in effigy, and given the time, place and situation, I believe that was quite appropriate.
Bush was burned in effigy, and given the time, place and situation, I believe that was quite appropriate.
are for symbolists.
Windows were supposedly broken at 2 banks, Wells Fargo and Bank of America. Unfortunately the banks were not lit on fire, as a popular chant goes - "capitalism, no thanks well burn your fucking banks".
At any rate I think that a lot of folks would be somewhat ok with banks getting smashed a little. But then again I don't think that the point was really to appeal to most people necessarily. It seems like it was more of a reaction to the fucked up election, war, and police reaction to the burning of an effigy.
At any rate I think that a lot of folks would be somewhat ok with banks getting smashed a little. But then again I don't think that the point was really to appeal to most people necessarily. It seems like it was more of a reaction to the fucked up election, war, and police reaction to the burning of an effigy.
I think we need ALL tactics to win our final revolutionary goals. I don't think that destroying thigs is an unnaceptable tactic, but that it isn't the only one. Let's say that I do go to a protest and smash the McDonalds, that doesn't mean that I don't perform other types of activism. I think unions are just as important. I think that we need to strenghthen communities, both localy and internationaly. I am one of those angry kids in some pictures, and I don't see anything wrong with smashing the windows of the Bank Of America, while I also do other things with the movement. Basically, we will never have a movement where every person agrees on tactis, I think that we should accept all of the tactics that we know of and use them as we see useful. Sabotage, smashing windows, flyers, speeches, Copwatches, community organizing, and everything else is needed if we are to succeed.
You are merely going around, as usual, in circles.
This is a social war for the planet. It will, as all wars, be expressed in many forms, on many levels, including the acts of blind rage expressed violently against individuals, objects, or institutions representing the corporate oligarch.
Good.
War is waged on all levels and there is no socially "correct" way to overthrow an oppressor.
War, for those less personally aware of it, does not fit any of your pleasant etheric forum attempts to "structure" it in order to "appease" the sensibilities of the inept when it comes to waging war.
The situation we are now involved in is merely a well worn form of action-reaction; obvious crimes against the state, against humanity have and are being commited and those acts are well known and long since publicly defined. Since there are no legitimate controls of the corporate mouthpiece, the media, those acts are deliberately misrepresented or simply not discussed, so the average global citizen, especially those unfortunate enough to be trapped within the contiguous USA, was never and will not be given the slightest measure of unbiased reporting, candidacy representation, or regime policy review.
It is called Psy Ops. When your justifiable rage spills over and becomes a larger threat you can rest assured "your" government will arrange some more acts of despicable carnage and see to it that the evidence points to....
It stands to reason that the vast majority of American consumers are merely that and no more; what precisely do they read or see that would make them consider changing their ignorant and entirely false perceptions of American society?
What do you intend to do, TALK the corporate oligarch to death? We are well aware, on a global stage, of the efficacy of reasoned dialogue with the criminally insane at this stage, aren´t we?
Relax. Everyone cannot be Marines, and everyone cannot be gifted speakers in a public setting. The common denominator is not whether or not we "agree" on the "correct" expressions of a movement that frankly has a long way to go to earn that title, but the fact that other than a miniscule collection of the morally and ethically handicapped who have complete control of the media as well as the public governmental apparatus itself, most Americans are become aware of their social image as a rather sorry lot when viewed from societies that have long since established the parameters of equal access to healthcare, education, livable wages, social security, environmental safeguarding, and the political process itself.
America will not change until the oligarch is forced to. They will be. Try to always remember that they are only a few thousands with a strong PsyOps organization while we are billions...with no viable public voice, yet.
So, after forty years of international efforts, let me say to all my younger American friends and patriots, hell yes, by all means burn or destroy every single object of the oligarch you can lay your hands on, and more power to you!
Just do it wisely.
When you trash, leave evidence leading to.....
When you steal, give all the proceeds to.......
When you remove x, provide proof positive as to why.....
Leave a clear message that cannot be misconstrued or subverted.
Your honest rage is easy to understand and the complete lack of organized leadership and structural support of the domestic version of global resistance to corporate fascism is
recognized as a strong catalyst for your increasing frustration.
To my older, self proclaimed to be "rational" patriots, (was Chamberlain...rational?) you will not be the ones at the barricades, but you can and do wage this war on other, more ... currently socially acceptable ... levels;
such as demonstrations, teach-ins, organizing, publishing, financing, et al. Any army moves on it´s stomach not it´s ideals...
The war is waged on many levels and there is room for all.
The least productive method of social change is to attempt to "vote" the corporate oligarchy representatives out of office in a nationstate where there is no such thing as a legitimate, unbiased election process conducted by equals providing an honest and impartial result. Talk about an exercise in futility!
Don´t even try to argue the point;
1. Nader was sued under false premises just to be kept off ballot.
2. Nader was not allowd to publicly debate the corporate candidates.
3. Vote counting halted in several "swing" states and no reaction.
4. thousands of ballots compromised and no reaction.
5. No options, alternatives, or threats to corporate tyranny allowed.
The very best message that could be sent by all means seen as necessary, is that capital as a means of social regimentation is rejected and therefore banks and their owners are a defunct social entity whose day has long since passed. Their currency is no longer valid.
You want it? Take it. They need it? Share. You want to help? Get to work at what you do best. You do not need childish tokens of a past era of human barbarity and benighted ignorance in order to develop a thriving and healthy state of being.
But we have a long way to go to get there and those who benefit from your false bondage will print and do whatever it takes to keep you from organizing effectively towards the only rational goal of social enterprise; the equal rights of all humanity which obviously cannot and do not ever exist in a social order founded on human value based on possession of idiotic...tokens.
This is a social war for the planet. It will, as all wars, be expressed in many forms, on many levels, including the acts of blind rage expressed violently against individuals, objects, or institutions representing the corporate oligarch.
Good.
War is waged on all levels and there is no socially "correct" way to overthrow an oppressor.
War, for those less personally aware of it, does not fit any of your pleasant etheric forum attempts to "structure" it in order to "appease" the sensibilities of the inept when it comes to waging war.
The situation we are now involved in is merely a well worn form of action-reaction; obvious crimes against the state, against humanity have and are being commited and those acts are well known and long since publicly defined. Since there are no legitimate controls of the corporate mouthpiece, the media, those acts are deliberately misrepresented or simply not discussed, so the average global citizen, especially those unfortunate enough to be trapped within the contiguous USA, was never and will not be given the slightest measure of unbiased reporting, candidacy representation, or regime policy review.
It is called Psy Ops. When your justifiable rage spills over and becomes a larger threat you can rest assured "your" government will arrange some more acts of despicable carnage and see to it that the evidence points to....
It stands to reason that the vast majority of American consumers are merely that and no more; what precisely do they read or see that would make them consider changing their ignorant and entirely false perceptions of American society?
What do you intend to do, TALK the corporate oligarch to death? We are well aware, on a global stage, of the efficacy of reasoned dialogue with the criminally insane at this stage, aren´t we?
Relax. Everyone cannot be Marines, and everyone cannot be gifted speakers in a public setting. The common denominator is not whether or not we "agree" on the "correct" expressions of a movement that frankly has a long way to go to earn that title, but the fact that other than a miniscule collection of the morally and ethically handicapped who have complete control of the media as well as the public governmental apparatus itself, most Americans are become aware of their social image as a rather sorry lot when viewed from societies that have long since established the parameters of equal access to healthcare, education, livable wages, social security, environmental safeguarding, and the political process itself.
America will not change until the oligarch is forced to. They will be. Try to always remember that they are only a few thousands with a strong PsyOps organization while we are billions...with no viable public voice, yet.
So, after forty years of international efforts, let me say to all my younger American friends and patriots, hell yes, by all means burn or destroy every single object of the oligarch you can lay your hands on, and more power to you!
Just do it wisely.
When you trash, leave evidence leading to.....
When you steal, give all the proceeds to.......
When you remove x, provide proof positive as to why.....
Leave a clear message that cannot be misconstrued or subverted.
Your honest rage is easy to understand and the complete lack of organized leadership and structural support of the domestic version of global resistance to corporate fascism is
recognized as a strong catalyst for your increasing frustration.
To my older, self proclaimed to be "rational" patriots, (was Chamberlain...rational?) you will not be the ones at the barricades, but you can and do wage this war on other, more ... currently socially acceptable ... levels;
such as demonstrations, teach-ins, organizing, publishing, financing, et al. Any army moves on it´s stomach not it´s ideals...
The war is waged on many levels and there is room for all.
The least productive method of social change is to attempt to "vote" the corporate oligarchy representatives out of office in a nationstate where there is no such thing as a legitimate, unbiased election process conducted by equals providing an honest and impartial result. Talk about an exercise in futility!
Don´t even try to argue the point;
1. Nader was sued under false premises just to be kept off ballot.
2. Nader was not allowd to publicly debate the corporate candidates.
3. Vote counting halted in several "swing" states and no reaction.
4. thousands of ballots compromised and no reaction.
5. No options, alternatives, or threats to corporate tyranny allowed.
The very best message that could be sent by all means seen as necessary, is that capital as a means of social regimentation is rejected and therefore banks and their owners are a defunct social entity whose day has long since passed. Their currency is no longer valid.
You want it? Take it. They need it? Share. You want to help? Get to work at what you do best. You do not need childish tokens of a past era of human barbarity and benighted ignorance in order to develop a thriving and healthy state of being.
But we have a long way to go to get there and those who benefit from your false bondage will print and do whatever it takes to keep you from organizing effectively towards the only rational goal of social enterprise; the equal rights of all humanity which obviously cannot and do not ever exist in a social order founded on human value based on possession of idiotic...tokens.
we could not even get California on our side. we just
shot our selves in the foot "Again" polliticaly speaking
what the hell where we thinking?
shot our selves in the foot "Again" polliticaly speaking
what the hell where we thinking?
keep thinking what we've thought and doing what we've done all along. after all, it's gotten us this far.
why change thoughts in midstream, right?
why change thoughts in midstream, right?
Fires like this belong, not in the streets, but in the mansions of the rich
.
.
"we could not even get California on our side. we just
shot our selves in the foot "Again" polliticaly speaking
what the hell where we thinking?"
What are you talking about? What "we" is this? I am totally confused. Gay marriage issues aren't really even on the democratic agaenda, but as much as they are they probably are there for economic reasons more than ethical ones.
shot our selves in the foot "Again" polliticaly speaking
what the hell where we thinking?"
What are you talking about? What "we" is this? I am totally confused. Gay marriage issues aren't really even on the democratic agaenda, but as much as they are they probably are there for economic reasons more than ethical ones.
Breaking the windows would have been more effective communication if it had been in the Downtown/ Financial District rather than the already run down Mission District... Yep, breaking up low income neighborhoods "really" is an effective way of getting the residents on our side... It doesn't matter if the target is a big, greedy corporation, it is still their neighborhood that has one more boarded up window.
Does anyone else wonder why the police let everyone run free while we were in the Mission and Tenderloin then they snatched everyone up once everyone was headed towards the money area?
Does anyone else wonder why the police let everyone run free while we were in the Mission and Tenderloin then they snatched everyone up once everyone was headed towards the money area?
We are 100% volunteer and depend on your participation to sustain our efforts!
Donate
$225.00 donated
in the past month
Get Involved
If you'd like to help with maintaining or developing the website, contact us.
Publish
Publish your stories and upcoming events on Indybay.
Topics
More
Search Indybay's Archives
Advanced Search
►
▼
IMC Network