Right now in SF

campaigned for nader? i wonder.

Real Americans hate gays, minorities and those without money. Real Americans want to make abortion illegal and make Christianity a state religion. Real American are a mirror image of those who supported the Taliban in Afghanistan except that the fundamentalism is for a different religion. Real Americans think its ok to bomb, kill and torture civilians as long as they live far away and will never meet them. Real Americans are the reason the Bill of Right was added to the Constitution since the tyrany of a majority is a danger in any society. Real Americans may be a slight minority in the US but they are the reason the US was ttacked on 9/11 and if Bush continues chances are terror attacks and wars will continue for generations.

Interesting that the city victimised by 9/11 and the RNC voted against Bush in droves.

all that hate. what to do? run and hide? scold people? or come up with some kind of real plan for once...

stop flaming the comments list and we wont have to have comments hidden. It's as simple as that. Go somewhere else with your flamewars.

I participated in the march tonight and was thrilled to be in solidarity with so many thousands. We represented the unheard voices and votes from this election. But I am truly disheartened that it ended in violence and chaos. We cannot begin to find solutions down this path - don't let the disingenuous right take away OUR integrity. Direct, nonviolent action!

while bush was "reaching out a hand" and the rightwing demos were blaming gays...

and you folks are out burning dumpsters or whatever, to display your "solidarity" or whatever.

maybe it really is hopeless here.

it was more than some of us managed here on indybay.

Trantrums in the streets are not going to work.

Folks, these protest demonstrations are useful, but only to a point. They're positive to the point that they show that we, the opposition to the powers that be will not take the continued march down the hellish path to fascism will not come easy. But there is absolutely no positive outcome to be gained by setting garbage on fire in the streets or breaking windows. Even if these acts were caused by undercover agents of the state to discredit us, such acts serve that purpose quite well and we open ourselves up to that kind of sabotage by holding demonstrations such as this. There has to be a better way to resist the powers that be. Fortunately, I can think of several, but all of them require that you be serious activists and be willing to do a lot of boring mundane work:

(1) We must keep pounding away at the lies spread by both parties about the illegal and immoral invasion and genocied that is happening in Iraq. We must continue to expose the lies and coverups behind the Bush / PNAC engineered 9/11 conspiracy. We must continue to expose the so-called "war on terrorism" for what it really is: a war *of* terrorism. Most people, including many that voted for Bush don't know all of the truth or they would hardly have relected him.

(2) We must continue to expose all of the rampant election fraud, including doctored voter rolls, voter intimidation, and the "black box" voting irregularities caused by the diebold machines. These efforts are actually having an effect. I suspect very highly that this election was engineered to assure a Bush victory by a big enough margin to make it *seem* like he was "legitimately" elected even though he wasn't so that we'd all just shut up and go away and stop complaining about this obvious theft of our right to accountability from the government. Don't let them get away with this! Keep fighting this fight. Those of you who have been involved in that fight are making progress. Don't let this setback stop you.

(3) The alternative energy magazine "Solar Today" described the U.S. as potentially the "Saudi Arabia" of wind energy. Guess where the biggest potential lies? You guessed it, the reddest of the deep "red" Redpublican states. If the workers who have been devastated by the capitalist globalization schemes and the family farmers whose farms have been sucked up by corporate agro-business could be given the power to rebuild their community through this great potential, it will not only turn these red states a very deep *green*, and utterly undermine the Republican Party's stronghold, we'll undermine the stranglehold that the fossil fuel cartel has on us by a long distance. This is a great opportunity, but to seize it we have to appeal to a lot of people we tend to turn our noses up at. we may have to temporarily endure some prejudicial attitudes, but in the long run these folks will unlearn them when they regain their lost freedoms and gain new freedom they've never had before. The Native Americasn tribes in South Dakota are already starting to lead the way. Let's give them a hand as well. If anyone is intersted, I can point you in the right direction if you want to join in these efforts.

(4) Meanwhile, I am going to keep doing what I do, and that is organizing One Big Union to overthrow wage slavery a scourge enabled by both the Republicans and Democrats.

Folks, please don't set your course on a path of self destruction. The long term results will only be increased repression, and there is enough of that already. Radicals, activists, and anarchists can either take on leadership roles in progressive causes or they can marginalize themselves. Whether well intentioned or not, demonstrations like these tend to discredit us. (take it from me a veteran of several such demonstrationsover the past decade).

fire in the streets is a totally appropriate response to tuesday's election. hello - the christian right had a massive victory! what are we supposed to do, roll over and play nice? those people want to see us and our kind dead, or better yet, slave-laboring for them or at home and barefoot and pregnant.

now, i don't think demos where windows get smashed are a long-term organizing strategy. far from it. there is a lot of mundane work to be done on the ground. "revolution" (ha ha - we're so, so far from that now) is not just the glamour of fire in the streets, but is the organizing that moves people from being passive consumers to a more collective consciousness and ability to act, individually and as collective groups.

but i see this as a demo in reaction to the war, and in reaction to the election. people are angry. don't tell them to swallow their anger. it needs to be expressed. hello! people are dying! hello!

Here we go again. I was afraid y'all wouldn't listen to me, but I guess I should expect this.

It's an incredibly pathetic commentary on the left that our range of revolutionary tactics is limited to setting fires in the streets.

now, i don't think demos where windows get smashed are a long-term organizing strategy. far from it. there is a lot of mundane work to be done on the ground. "revolution" (ha ha - we're so, so far from that now) is not just the glamour of fire in the streets, but is the organizing that moves people from being passive consumers to a more collective consciousness and ability to act, individually and as collective groups.

but i see this as a demo in reaction to the war, and in reaction to the election. people are angry. don't tell them to swallow their anger. it needs to be expressed. hello! people are dying! hello!

Well friend, perhaps you should spend some time outside of the activist ghetto. I can tell you for a fact that these tactics won't even go over very well with avid Kerry supporters, much less Christian fundamentalists. Heck, even people who went to the demonstration were turned off by the breakaway march. I expect you, or another stubborn activist will now start denouncing these critics as "wimps" or "sell-outs". Here we go again, down the same doomed path.

I am angry too, but anger misdirected is self destructive.

[F]ire in the streets is a totally appropriate response to tuesday's election. hello - the christian right had a massive victory! what are we supposed to do, roll over and play nice? those people want to see us and our kind dead, or better yet, slave-laboring for them or at home and barefoot and pregnant.

These people are manipulated, frightened, working class human beings. They have jumped on the right wing bandwagon because the religious right has spent the past fifty years or so doing hard *work* to organize a program (even if it is insane and demented) that addresses issues that these people care about. Meanwhile the Democrats have abandonded issues that really effect these people (such as economic issues, jobs, and energy policy). Those of us "left" keep supporting these Democrats because we cannot seem to figure out how to build a mass based movement. If we were successful in doing so, the Democrats would be moving leftward, not rightward. People are not *born* fundamentalists, they *become* fundamentalists. 100 years ago the ancestors of many of these fundamentalists were radicals. Some of them were IWW members. What happened?

The answer can be found in books like "What's the Matter With Kansas?"

The *solution* to the problem is going to involve us doing lots of *work*, most of it hard and boring, but all of it essential. It will take years, and it will require us to get outside of the activist ghetto. We'll have to make alliances with people who drive cars, eat meat, belong to churches, listen to country music, and even carry guns (though not everyone will be like this of course). I'm sorry that this sounds condescending or unpalatable to you, but that's just the way it is.

First things first: we need to make sure that the fact that this election was stolen through massive _electronic vote fraud_ visible. The lack of a paper trail, and the very specific divergences from poll data *only in areas where there was electronic voting*. These were, of course, the critical areas in Ohio and Florida that would ensure Bush would *appear* to have won. Even more disturbing is a concession from a candidate who demanded that "every vote be counted" well before the provisional ballots have even *begun* to be counted. Kerry is probably overwhelmed by the scale and entrenchment of the fraud, and realizes that the only way to fight it is in the trenches of congress. (after all, these e-vote machines have no paper trail to audit - a recount is impossible) The only way to make that fight realistic, and to ensure that the Constitution remains intact, is to take to the street (in some form) to let the world know that we are aware that the election is a fraud, and we will do everything we can to stop this mess from spiraling any further out of control.

look, building the common ground between all elements is exactly what something like the democratic party is for. i dont care, call it the revolution, whatever. that's one thing.

then there's other things that are as important, but only some people are gonna do by their nature. like the labor thing.

something needs to come along and be a force for the depopularization of fundamentalist religious-based politics. if we cede that turf, we'll lose every time whatever other good work anyone does, because it is an important way The Man (if you will) can undermine everything regardless of logic or reason.

i think They call it "secular humanism," and it is on the outs. someone or something needs to repopularize it. i'd suggest focusing on the kids. that's not the same as disdaining everyone who goes to church.

anyone doubting the importance of this antgi-church cultural work needs only look at this election as a (let's face it) relatively mild, but very real warning. bush admin 2, for all its horrors, will pale in comparison to a fundie-xian theocracy in america. those church people like reed definitely think that's the road they're paving. we need to wake up to the threat for what it is, and drain the pools in which it breeds, just as if we were fighting disease.

"It's an incredibly pathetic commentary on the left that our range of revolutionary tactics is limited to setting fires in the streets."

uh, did i say this? no. clearly, it's not a long-term organizing strategy, as i said below: " now, i don't think demos where windows get smashed are a long-term organizing strategy. far from it. there is a lot of mundane work to be done on the ground. "revolution" (ha ha - we're so, so far from that now) is not just the glamour of fire in the streets, but is the organizing that moves people from being passive consumers to a more collective consciousness and ability to act, individually and as collective groups."



"I can tell you for a fact that these tactics won't even go over very well with avid Kerry supporters, much less Christian fundamentalists."

oh, are we looking to appeal to christian fundamentalists now? easier if you're straight and not a "freak" in the eyes of middle amerika, my dear. really, i don't think last night's demo was about appealing to people - it was more about reacting to an election that's already happened, and to what bush and co. have done in iraq, etc. uh, and if you are thinking of going out and appealing to jesusland, it might be more strategic to get out of the bay area and go talk to folks outside. somehow i don't think a medium-sized post-election demo in sf is going to make a difference either way to them.

"Heck, even people who went to the demonstration were turned off by the breakaway march. I expect you, or another stubborn activist will now start denouncing these critics as "wimps" or "sell-outs". Here we go again, down the same doomed path."

i wasn't there (regret), and so didn't go on the breakaway march. it does sound like, from reading other posts, that it may not have been the most tactically smart decision to go off downtown later in a small-ish group. however, i did think burning an effigy and making a fire was a decent channeling of energy.

"100 years ago the ancestors of many of these fundamentalists were radicals. Some of them were IWW members. What happened?
The answer can be found in books like "What's the Matter With Kansas?" "

been looking forward to reading it as soon as it's out in paperback.


"The *solution* to the problem is going to involve us doing lots of *work*, most of it hard and boring, but all of it essential. It will take years, and it will require us to get outside of the activist ghetto. We'll have to make alliances with people who drive cars, eat meat, belong to churches, listen to country music, and even carry guns (though not everyone will be like this of course). I'm sorry that this sounds condescending or unpalatable to you, but that's just the way it is."

what makes you think i don't drive a car, eat meat and listen to country music? (ok, i don't really listen to country music. and no gun yet.)

don't assume all critics of your paternalistic attitude are vegan purist fundamentalists, please. and i do agree w/ you somewhat, in terms of organizing, going beyond pyrotechnics at demos, etc. but you do come off as totally patronizing. do you really expect the kids you're trying to reach to listen?

see above. blah blah blah.

as for new ideas..............