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Indybay Feature
Election Night Lessons 2004
Incumbents usually win and labor is very weak is the lesson of the 2004 election, as it has been for decades. Prop 66, to end the prison madness, failed statewide, but the honor roll for it is instructive. Prop 72, the healthcare prop, is barely loosing and that could change. The same old lesson prevails: Always vote your conscience.
Incumbents usually win and labor is very weak is the lesson of the 2004 election, as it has been for decades. Prop 66, to end the prison madness, failed statewide, but the honor roll for it is instructive. Prop 72, the healthcare prop, is barely loosing and that could change. The same old lesson prevails: Always vote your conscience.
This so-called "heavy voter turnout" is pathetic. As of this writing, with 100% of the precincts reporting in San Francisco but no provisional ballots counted, 271,058 people voted in San Francisco, out of 600,000 adults. That figure may go up to 300,000, which would be the usual for a presidential election. In California, with 85% of the precincts reporting, 9,382,628 people voted out of 27 million adults. That figure may go up to 11 million, the usual for a presidential election. Once again, most of the workingclass, those of us who sell our labor for less than $70,000 per year, did not vote.
In California, absolutely no surprises occurred in major races. Democrat Kerry won 54% of the vote, prevailing in the coastal counties from Mendocino to Monterey in the North, plus the Sacramento area and Lake Tahoe area, with Southern California contributing Los Angeles and Imperial Counties to Kerry’s victory in California. Considering two-thirds of California’s population of 35 million is south of Monterey, it took the heavily populated Los Angeles County to guarantee that simple majority victory for the warmongering Democrat Kerry. San Francisco led the state with 83% of the vote going to Kerry, the usual percentage for the leading Democrat in a general election in San Francisco.
At the national level, as of this writing, we are waiting for the former industrial heartland state, Ohio, to decide the presidential election. The Republican Party won both houses of Congress. Both of these results mean that there is not a dime’s worth of difference between the warmongering, pro-death penalty, pro-fascist Patriot Act capitalist Democrats and Republicans. The fact that Ohio, of all states, is undecided, is ridiculous. If the Democrats had a serious workingclass program, they would easily win all of the states North of the Mason-Dixon line (north of Virginia, east of the Mississippi), plus the West Coast. Kerry won this usual Democratic bastion, except Ohio and Iowa, which are undecided. Considering how terrible Bush is, this race should not have been close. It means the Democrats have nothing to offer and if you want change, you must vote your conscience, and beyond voting, we must do labor organizing.
The Democratic US Senator Barbara Boxer, won 58% of the vote, with 83% going for her in San Francisco. Peace & Freedom’s excellent candidate, Marsha Feinland, won 2% of the vote statewide (177,185 votes with 85% of the precincts reporting), enabling Peace & Freedom Party to stay on the ballot.
For US Congress, Democrats Nancy Pelosi won her usual 82% of the vote and Tom Lantos won with 69% of the vote. The Lantos incumbency was thought to be seriously contested as this old reactionary warmonger deserves to be retired, but in a primarily homeowner district that includes the western section of San Francisco plus San Mateo County, an incumbent easily wins, especially if they are reactionary.
The truth about San Francisco’s voters may be found with the weak result for Proposition N, calling for withdrawal of all US troops from Iraq, won 63% of the vote, with 147,000 voting yes and 85,000 voting no, in a County that votes over 80% for the leading Democrat and gives 2% of its vote to Peace & Freedom’s US Senate candidate Feinland and 3% to Peace & Freedom’s candidate against Pelosi, Leilani Dowell and 2% of its vote to the write-in Green candidate, Terry Baum.
The supervisor races were clearly all about incumbency and money.
District 1, the Richmond District, incumbent and pro-rent control Democrat Jake McGoldrick easily won with 42% of the vote, defeating anti-rent control former judge Democrat Lillian Sing who came in second with 29% of the vote.
District 5, the Haight-Ashbury and the Fillmore, where the incumbent, Green Party’s Matt Gonzalez, declined to run again although he would have been easily re-elected, Green Party’s top fundraiser of the 3 Green candidates (the others being Feldstein who got 9% and King who got 2% of the vote), Ross Mirkarimi, was elected supervisor with 28% of the vote, beating the top Democratic candidate, Robert Haaland, who received 14% of the vote. All of the named candidates here are pro-rent control, the litmus test issue in San Francisco.
District 9, the Mission and Bernal Heights, pro-rent control incumbent Democrat Tom Ammiano, easily won with 50% of the vote, with Green Party’s Renee Saucedo coming in second with 21% of the vote and the anti-rent control Democrat, Miguel Bustos, receiving 17% of the vote. Socialist Lucrecia Bermudez won 4% of the vote and socialist Peace & Freedom Party member Steve Zeltzer won 2% of the vote. District 9 is the most radical voting district in San Francisco, yet it re-elected an incumbent who proudly supports the US military base known as Israel and who supported both stadium swindles, the illegal cross on Mt. Davidson, and the entire reactionary Democratic Party ticket, all of whom by definition are pro-Israel, and whose party is just as pro-war and pro-death penalty as the Republican Party.
District 11, pro-rent control Democrat Gerardo Sandoval was easily re-elected with 32% of the vote. This was thought to be contested.
In all other supervisorial races, the incumbents won.
With the ranked-choice voting we have in these supervisors races, we will save $1 million in not having a runoff. That is why we should keep ranked choice voting. It clearly had no effect on the usual pattern of incumbents or, as in the case of District 5, the heavy spending candidate of the same party as the retiring incumbent, prevailing.
As to the propositions, given the fact that every single labor dispute for the past 10-20 years has been over healthcare, we have 45 million uninsured, and almost half of all personal bankruptcies are due to inability to pay medical bills despite having insurance, the fact that Proposition 72 only has 49.2% of the vote with 85% of precincts reporting, is shameful. It may yet pass at the statewide level. In San Francisco, it won with 69% of the vote. San Francisco did pass its own healthcare initiative, Prop G, with 69% of the vote. Prop G authorizes the City’s Health Service Board to establish health plans for City residents.
Proposition 66, the initiative that would finally change the reactionary Three Strikes law passed 10 years ago so that the third offense must be a violent crime, and not just a felony theft, to send a person to prison for life, was defeated with 52% voting No. This is a direct result of the workingclass not voting and the vicious, racist fear-mongering ads of reactionary Republican Governor Schwarzenegger against it. About the best that can be said is that in spite of who voted, Prop 66 won 47% of the vote, meaning prison reform is clearly on the agenda.
The honor roll for Yes on 66 is:
(The map of the 58 counties of California may be found at:
http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/ca_map_counties.html)
San Francisco 69%
Santa Cruz 66%
Humboldt 63%
Alpine 63%
Mendocino 60%
Alameda 59%
Marin 59%
Monterey 59%
Santa Barbara 57%
Sonoma 55%
San Mateo 54%
Siskiyou 54%
Monterey 53%
San Luis Obispo 53%
Butte 52%
Yolo 51%
Del Norte 51%
Trinity 51%
Santa Clara 50%
This so-called "heavy voter turnout" is pathetic. As of this writing, with 100% of the precincts reporting in San Francisco but no provisional ballots counted, 271,058 people voted in San Francisco, out of 600,000 adults. That figure may go up to 300,000, which would be the usual for a presidential election. In California, with 85% of the precincts reporting, 9,382,628 people voted out of 27 million adults. That figure may go up to 11 million, the usual for a presidential election. Once again, most of the workingclass, those of us who sell our labor for less than $70,000 per year, did not vote.
In California, absolutely no surprises occurred in major races. Democrat Kerry won 54% of the vote, prevailing in the coastal counties from Mendocino to Monterey in the North, plus the Sacramento area and Lake Tahoe area, with Southern California contributing Los Angeles and Imperial Counties to Kerry’s victory in California. Considering two-thirds of California’s population of 35 million is south of Monterey, it took the heavily populated Los Angeles County to guarantee that simple majority victory for the warmongering Democrat Kerry. San Francisco led the state with 83% of the vote going to Kerry, the usual percentage for the leading Democrat in a general election in San Francisco.
At the national level, as of this writing, we are waiting for the former industrial heartland state, Ohio, to decide the presidential election. The Republican Party won both houses of Congress. Both of these results mean that there is not a dime’s worth of difference between the warmongering, pro-death penalty, pro-fascist Patriot Act capitalist Democrats and Republicans. The fact that Ohio, of all states, is undecided, is ridiculous. If the Democrats had a serious workingclass program, they would easily win all of the states North of the Mason-Dixon line (north of Virginia, east of the Mississippi), plus the West Coast. Kerry won this usual Democratic bastion, except Ohio and Iowa, which are undecided. Considering how terrible Bush is, this race should not have been close. It means the Democrats have nothing to offer and if you want change, you must vote your conscience, and beyond voting, we must do labor organizing.
The Democratic US Senator Barbara Boxer, won 58% of the vote, with 83% going for her in San Francisco. Peace & Freedom’s excellent candidate, Marsha Feinland, won 2% of the vote statewide (177,185 votes with 85% of the precincts reporting), enabling Peace & Freedom Party to stay on the ballot.
For US Congress, Democrats Nancy Pelosi won her usual 82% of the vote and Tom Lantos won with 69% of the vote. The Lantos incumbency was thought to be seriously contested as this old reactionary warmonger deserves to be retired, but in a primarily homeowner district that includes the western section of San Francisco plus San Mateo County, an incumbent easily wins, especially if they are reactionary.
The truth about San Francisco’s voters may be found with the weak result for Proposition N, calling for withdrawal of all US troops from Iraq, won 63% of the vote, with 147,000 voting yes and 85,000 voting no, in a County that votes over 80% for the leading Democrat and gives 2% of its vote to Peace & Freedom’s US Senate candidate Feinland and 3% to Peace & Freedom’s candidate against Pelosi, Leilani Dowell and 2% of its vote to the write-in Green candidate, Terry Baum.
The supervisor races were clearly all about incumbency and money.
District 1, the Richmond District, incumbent and pro-rent control Democrat Jake McGoldrick easily won with 42% of the vote, defeating anti-rent control former judge Democrat Lillian Sing who came in second with 29% of the vote.
District 5, the Haight-Ashbury and the Fillmore, where the incumbent, Green Party’s Matt Gonzalez, declined to run again although he would have been easily re-elected, Green Party’s top fundraiser of the 3 Green candidates (the others being Feldstein who got 9% and King who got 2% of the vote), Ross Mirkarimi, was elected supervisor with 28% of the vote, beating the top Democratic candidate, Robert Haaland, who received 14% of the vote. All of the named candidates here are pro-rent control, the litmus test issue in San Francisco.
District 9, the Mission and Bernal Heights, pro-rent control incumbent Democrat Tom Ammiano, easily won with 50% of the vote, with Green Party’s Renee Saucedo coming in second with 21% of the vote and the anti-rent control Democrat, Miguel Bustos, receiving 17% of the vote. Socialist Lucrecia Bermudez won 4% of the vote and socialist Peace & Freedom Party member Steve Zeltzer won 2% of the vote. District 9 is the most radical voting district in San Francisco, yet it re-elected an incumbent who proudly supports the US military base known as Israel and who supported both stadium swindles, the illegal cross on Mt. Davidson, and the entire reactionary Democratic Party ticket, all of whom by definition are pro-Israel, and whose party is just as pro-war and pro-death penalty as the Republican Party.
District 11, pro-rent control Democrat Gerardo Sandoval was easily re-elected with 32% of the vote. This was thought to be contested.
In all other supervisorial races, the incumbents won.
With the ranked-choice voting we have in these supervisors races, we will save $1 million in not having a runoff. That is why we should keep ranked choice voting. It clearly had no effect on the usual pattern of incumbents or, as in the case of District 5, the heavy spending candidate of the same party as the retiring incumbent, prevailing.
As to the propositions, given the fact that every single labor dispute for the past 10-20 years has been over healthcare, we have 45 million uninsured, and almost half of all personal bankruptcies are due to inability to pay medical bills despite having insurance, the fact that Proposition 72 only has 49.2% of the vote with 85% of precincts reporting, is shameful. It may yet pass at the statewide level. In San Francisco, it won with 69% of the vote. San Francisco did pass its own healthcare initiative, Prop G, with 69% of the vote. Prop G authorizes the City’s Health Service Board to establish health plans for City residents.
Proposition 66, the initiative that would finally change the reactionary Three Strikes law passed 10 years ago so that the third offense must be a violent crime, and not just a felony theft, to send a person to prison for life, was defeated with 52% voting No. This is a direct result of the workingclass not voting and the vicious, racist fear-mongering ads of reactionary Republican Governor Schwarzenegger against it. About the best that can be said is that in spite of who voted, Prop 66 won 47% of the vote, meaning prison reform is clearly on the agenda.
The honor roll for Yes on 66 is:
(The map of the 58 counties of California may be found at:
http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/ca_map_counties.html)
San Francisco 69%
Santa Cruz 66%
Humboldt 63%
Alpine 63%
Mendocino 60%
Alameda 59%
Marin 59%
Monterey 59%
Santa Barbara 57%
Sonoma 55%
San Mateo 54%
Siskiyou 54%
Monterey 53%
San Luis Obispo 53%
Butte 52%
Yolo 51%
Del Norte 51%
Trinity 51%
Santa Clara 50%
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Given that you've been following elections as closely as you have for as long as you have, do you think this is a likely reason for the outcome?
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/?q=node/view/78
It seems insane that anyone *wouldn't* use this efficient method of a 'second set of books' on the central tabulators.
One of the reasons I think this is happening is that the squelching of the exit polling is fairly extreme. Why? Because it won't jive with rigged machines. Notice that as soon as the machines came on line, the exit polling (2000) conveniently 'failed,' and this year, the only ones in control of the exit polling are now the consortium of ABCCBSNBCCNNAP. The disturbing fact that AP would now be the sole source of exit polls was reported in China, but not highlighted here.
Here's an exerpt from the story on that:
In the past, the AP and the Voter News Service (VNS), a companythat was formed in 1964 to count votes and conduct exit polls, were the sources of vote-counting data for the media organizations.
However, VNS was blamed for faulty data that led to the wrong calls in the 2000 election and its failure in the mid-term election of Congress in 2002, and was then disbanded.
Six major US media organizations such as ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, Fox News Channel and the AP have formed the National Election Poll(NEP) to replace VNS.
This time, the media organizations signed contracts with two veteran polling companies -- Mitofsky International and Edison Media Research that will conduct exit surveys for the Nov. 2 presidential election.
http://www.indybay.org/news/2004/11/1702602.php
And here's one person analyzing the situation on DUnderground:
"Analysis of the polling data vs actual data and voting systems supports the hypothesis that evoting may be to blame in the discrepancies. Nevada has evoting but with verified receipts. In that state the Exit Polling matches the actual results within .1% accuracy. However for other swing states Bush has unexplainable leads.
I'm still compiling data. Please help me determine what voting methods are being used in swing states and which are evoting without audit trails. Post your data under the individual state responses below.
-------------------------------------------
Kerry is well ahead in exit polls, but still losing the counts. WTH is going on?
Kerry is well ahead in Exit Polling in Ohio. We're being screwed.
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/O...
Male: 51/49 Kerry 47%
Female: 53/47 Kerry 53%
Dem: 91/8 Kerry 38%
Rep: 94/6 Bush 37%
Ind: 60/39 Kerry 24%
-------------------------------
I think there's a reason we're all getting screwed. If this gang could pull off 9/11, they can certainly pull off a vote.
And here we go -
"In recent years, central Ohio has been transformed from a bastion of Republicanism into a Democratic stronghold. Six of Columbus' seven city council members are Democrats, as is the city's mayor, Michael Coleman. But no Democrat has been elected to Congress from central Ohio in more than 20 years, and the area around Columbus still includes pockets where no Democrat stands a chance. One such Republican pocket is Upper Arlington, the Columbus suburb that is home to Walden "Wally" O'Dell, the chairman of the board and chief executive of Diebold. For years, O'Dell has given generously to Republican candidates. Last September, he held a packed $1,000-per-head GOP fundraiser at his 10,800-square-foot mansion. He has been feted as a guest at President Bush's Texas ranch, joining a cadre of "Pioneers and Rangers" who have pledged to raise more than $100,000 for the Bush reelection campaign. Most memorably, O'Dell last fall penned a letter pledging his commitment "to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the President."
http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2004/03/03_200.html
Can't forget that famous comment.
That's the thing you can notice with these scams - they screw up from time to time when they have it in the bag, someone says something. Like Bush saying he saw the first plane hit the building on TV. He probably did.
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/?q=node/view/78
It seems insane that anyone *wouldn't* use this efficient method of a 'second set of books' on the central tabulators.
One of the reasons I think this is happening is that the squelching of the exit polling is fairly extreme. Why? Because it won't jive with rigged machines. Notice that as soon as the machines came on line, the exit polling (2000) conveniently 'failed,' and this year, the only ones in control of the exit polling are now the consortium of ABCCBSNBCCNNAP. The disturbing fact that AP would now be the sole source of exit polls was reported in China, but not highlighted here.
Here's an exerpt from the story on that:
In the past, the AP and the Voter News Service (VNS), a companythat was formed in 1964 to count votes and conduct exit polls, were the sources of vote-counting data for the media organizations.
However, VNS was blamed for faulty data that led to the wrong calls in the 2000 election and its failure in the mid-term election of Congress in 2002, and was then disbanded.
Six major US media organizations such as ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, Fox News Channel and the AP have formed the National Election Poll(NEP) to replace VNS.
This time, the media organizations signed contracts with two veteran polling companies -- Mitofsky International and Edison Media Research that will conduct exit surveys for the Nov. 2 presidential election.
http://www.indybay.org/news/2004/11/1702602.php
And here's one person analyzing the situation on DUnderground:
"Analysis of the polling data vs actual data and voting systems supports the hypothesis that evoting may be to blame in the discrepancies. Nevada has evoting but with verified receipts. In that state the Exit Polling matches the actual results within .1% accuracy. However for other swing states Bush has unexplainable leads.
I'm still compiling data. Please help me determine what voting methods are being used in swing states and which are evoting without audit trails. Post your data under the individual state responses below.
-------------------------------------------
Kerry is well ahead in exit polls, but still losing the counts. WTH is going on?
Kerry is well ahead in Exit Polling in Ohio. We're being screwed.
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/O...
Male: 51/49 Kerry 47%
Female: 53/47 Kerry 53%
Dem: 91/8 Kerry 38%
Rep: 94/6 Bush 37%
Ind: 60/39 Kerry 24%
-------------------------------
I think there's a reason we're all getting screwed. If this gang could pull off 9/11, they can certainly pull off a vote.
And here we go -
"In recent years, central Ohio has been transformed from a bastion of Republicanism into a Democratic stronghold. Six of Columbus' seven city council members are Democrats, as is the city's mayor, Michael Coleman. But no Democrat has been elected to Congress from central Ohio in more than 20 years, and the area around Columbus still includes pockets where no Democrat stands a chance. One such Republican pocket is Upper Arlington, the Columbus suburb that is home to Walden "Wally" O'Dell, the chairman of the board and chief executive of Diebold. For years, O'Dell has given generously to Republican candidates. Last September, he held a packed $1,000-per-head GOP fundraiser at his 10,800-square-foot mansion. He has been feted as a guest at President Bush's Texas ranch, joining a cadre of "Pioneers and Rangers" who have pledged to raise more than $100,000 for the Bush reelection campaign. Most memorably, O'Dell last fall penned a letter pledging his commitment "to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the President."
http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2004/03/03_200.html
Can't forget that famous comment.
That's the thing you can notice with these scams - they screw up from time to time when they have it in the bag, someone says something. Like Bush saying he saw the first plane hit the building on TV. He probably did.
For more information:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...
Only a opprotunist would consider Kerry losing a "lose" for the communist movement. It doesn't matter if a Republican or Democrat is elected president, because they both serve the aims of capitalism. The greatest defeat is that voting turnout did increase, which means that more workers are being sucked into the electorial spectacle, no matter who they vote for.
Every One Get Out and Vote for Nader
Vote for Nader, the ONLY anti-war candidate and the most visible candidate with regards to criticizing US foreign policy and Israel.
most visible candidate with regards to criticizing US foreign policy and Israel. state in relation to the Palestinian people (and, indeed, any people it doesn't like) were not surprised at the so-called "video" of what the Israeli government/military (the army has a state!) were declaring was a rocket being loaded into a UN van.
It's par for the course. Diversionary tactics, it's called, serving to deflect attention from the ongoing Israeli atrocities in the Occupied Territories.
The film was sent off to various news agencies around the globe in a deliberate attempt to besmirch the UN's Palestinian relief aid programme, whilst at the same time it was sending its terrorists, masquadering as an army, into Gaza on a killing spree that continues as we speakl
I wasn't the only one who saw this as a blatant attempt to discredit the work of the UN in the Palestinian Territories, and I also realized how dangerous it could be for the UN workers in the area.
Our own CBC's Middle East correspondent, Adrienne Arsenault, showed up on our Sunday newscast on the same evening, pushing a microphone in the face of Unrwa Head, Peter Hansen, and demanded to know if there were Hamas members on the UN payroll.
RALPH NADER IS OUR ONLY HOPE for peace in the middleeast
vote nader forr the sake of world peace
almost as pathetic as naderites marching in outrage that bush won.
duh.
duh.
which comes off as very bad form, at best, to the uninitiated viewer.
what would you say if bush lost and the freepers were out there?
it looks the same to the uncommitted.
what would you say if bush lost and the freepers were out there?
it looks the same to the uncommitted.
<<comes off as very bad form, at best, to the uninitiated viewer.>>
who the fuck is the "uninitiated viewer"? what are they "viewing"? mickey mouse and donald duck?
well, a lot of people are gonna get "initiated" in the coming few years, i'll tell you that.
in a way it's actually good that bush won. the liberals would have given kerry a 2 year year honeymoon to enact essentially the same policies as bush will. bush isn't gonna any such grace period--not even for a second. the trick is to turn the visceral hatred of bush into a rebellion against not just the titular leader, but the system itself. i see signs that this mood is shaping up. discontent--EVEN IN THE "RED STATES"--is pervasive.
listening to rightists on the radio today, it reminded me of the months after 911. these clowns consider their ignorance a virtue. they act like all's well in la-la land. but make no mistake: bush will preside over an economy busting at the seams with debt, a dollar that's been sinking in value for a year, interest rates that can only go up, and deficits as far as the eye can see. this is why many smart capitalist planners wanted to see the real conservative in the race--john kerry--win: the hope was he could forge a consensus for austerity (under the aegus of "fiscal responsibility") and bring his constituents along for the ride while tailoring a more mulitlateralist form of imperialism.
there is no longer a savior for the willfully naive to point to as reason for patience or incrementalism. kerry's defeat--contra the arguments forwarded by anarcho-electoralists--will open up opportunities because it's cleared the field for a real fight.
who the fuck is the "uninitiated viewer"? what are they "viewing"? mickey mouse and donald duck?
well, a lot of people are gonna get "initiated" in the coming few years, i'll tell you that.
in a way it's actually good that bush won. the liberals would have given kerry a 2 year year honeymoon to enact essentially the same policies as bush will. bush isn't gonna any such grace period--not even for a second. the trick is to turn the visceral hatred of bush into a rebellion against not just the titular leader, but the system itself. i see signs that this mood is shaping up. discontent--EVEN IN THE "RED STATES"--is pervasive.
listening to rightists on the radio today, it reminded me of the months after 911. these clowns consider their ignorance a virtue. they act like all's well in la-la land. but make no mistake: bush will preside over an economy busting at the seams with debt, a dollar that's been sinking in value for a year, interest rates that can only go up, and deficits as far as the eye can see. this is why many smart capitalist planners wanted to see the real conservative in the race--john kerry--win: the hope was he could forge a consensus for austerity (under the aegus of "fiscal responsibility") and bring his constituents along for the ride while tailoring a more mulitlateralist form of imperialism.
there is no longer a savior for the willfully naive to point to as reason for patience or incrementalism. kerry's defeat--contra the arguments forwarded by anarcho-electoralists--will open up opportunities because it's cleared the field for a real fight.
the republicans run everything BY MAJORITY WILL
THOSE uninitiated. you gonna go "initiate" em? not from the SFBA yer not.
deeee-lusional.
THOSE uninitiated. you gonna go "initiate" em? not from the SFBA yer not.
deeee-lusional.
"there is no longer a savior for the willfully naive to point to as reason for patience or incrementalism. kerry's defeat--contra the arguments forwarded by anarcho-electoralists--will open up opportunities because it's cleared the field for a real fight."
no, the fundamentalist neocons have every branch of govt. plus a widely perceived mandate for all the horrors of the past 4 years, and every wet dream they've saved up since goldwater.
and no one on the planet has a clue how to stop them. opportunities my ass. the democrats will resume their servile crawl to the right, especially if the "anarchists" i.e. activists continue to refuse to deign to enter the electoral arena and move things in a different direction.
the churches beat the unions twice in a row. almost 60M republican voters. ~110 million voted. that's who we snub with silly little tantrum demos in the streets. bush is reaching out to the other 55M who voted while "we" (whatever that means) scream fascist.....
um. it is my contention that that's disastrous. people didn't vote their thoughts, they voted their religious sentiments. it's time we wrapped our ever superior minds around that.
you cant argue with that. we are so up a creek.
no, the fundamentalist neocons have every branch of govt. plus a widely perceived mandate for all the horrors of the past 4 years, and every wet dream they've saved up since goldwater.
and no one on the planet has a clue how to stop them. opportunities my ass. the democrats will resume their servile crawl to the right, especially if the "anarchists" i.e. activists continue to refuse to deign to enter the electoral arena and move things in a different direction.
the churches beat the unions twice in a row. almost 60M republican voters. ~110 million voted. that's who we snub with silly little tantrum demos in the streets. bush is reaching out to the other 55M who voted while "we" (whatever that means) scream fascist.....
um. it is my contention that that's disastrous. people didn't vote their thoughts, they voted their religious sentiments. it's time we wrapped our ever superior minds around that.
you cant argue with that. we are so up a creek.
Trantrums in the streets are not going to work.
Folks, these protest demonstrations are useful, but only to a point. They're positive to the point that they show that we, the opposition to the powers that be will not take the continued march down the hellish path to fascism will not come easy. But there is absolutely no positive outcome to be gained by setting garbage on fire in the streets or breaking windows. Even if these acts were caused by undercover agents of the state to discredit us, such acts serve that purpose quite well and we open ourselves up to that kind of sabotage by holding demonstrations such as this. There has to be a better way to resist the powers that be. Fortunately, I can think of several, but all of them require that you be serious activists and be willing to do a lot of boring mundane work:
(1) We must keep pounding away at the lies spread by both parties about the illegal and immoral invasion and genocied that is happening in Iraq. We must continue to expose the lies and coverups behind the Bush / PNAC engineered 9/11 conspiracy. We must continue to expose the so-called "war on terrorism" for what it really is: a war *of* terrorism. Most people, including many that voted for Bush don't know all of the truth or they would hardly have relected him.
(2) We must continue to expose all of the rampant election fraud, including doctored voter rolls, voter intimidation, and the "black box" voting irregularities caused by the diebold machines. These efforts are actually having an effect. I suspect very highly that this election was engineered to assure a Bush victory by a big enough margin to make it *seem* like he was "legitimately" elected even though he wasn't so that we'd all just shut up and go away and stop complaining about this obvious theft of our right to accountability from the government. Don't let them get away with this! Keep fighting this fight. Those of you who have been involved in that fight are making progress. Don't let this setback stop you.
(3) The alternative energy magazine "Solar Today" described the U.S. as potentially the "Saudi Arabia" of wind energy. Guess where the biggest potential lies? You guessed it, the reddest of the deep "red" Redpublican states. If the workers who have been devastated by the capitalist globalization schemes and the family farmers whose farms have been sucked up by corporate agro-business could be given the power to rebuild their community through this great potential, it will not only turn these red states a very deep *green*, and utterly undermine the Republican Party's stronghold, we'll undermine the stranglehold that the fossil fuel cartel has on us by a long distance. This is a great opportunity, but to seize it we have to appeal to a lot of people we tend to turn our noses up at. we may have to temporarily endure some prejudicial attitudes, but in the long run these folks will unlearn them when they regain their lost freedoms and gain new freedom they've never had before. The Native Americasn tribes in South Dakota are already starting to lead the way. Let's give them a hand as well. If anyone is intersted, I can point you in the right direction if you want to join in these efforts.
(4) Meanwhile, I am going to keep doing what I do, and that is organizing One Big Union to overthrow wage slavery a scourge enabled by both the Republicans and Democrats.
Folks, please don't set your course on a path of self destruction. The long term results will only be increased repression, and there is enough of that already. Radicals, activists, and anarchists can either take on leadership roles in progressive causes or they can marginalize themselves. Whether well intentioned or not, demonstrations like these tend to discredit us. (take it from me a veteran of several such demonstrationsover the past decade).
Folks, these protest demonstrations are useful, but only to a point. They're positive to the point that they show that we, the opposition to the powers that be will not take the continued march down the hellish path to fascism will not come easy. But there is absolutely no positive outcome to be gained by setting garbage on fire in the streets or breaking windows. Even if these acts were caused by undercover agents of the state to discredit us, such acts serve that purpose quite well and we open ourselves up to that kind of sabotage by holding demonstrations such as this. There has to be a better way to resist the powers that be. Fortunately, I can think of several, but all of them require that you be serious activists and be willing to do a lot of boring mundane work:
(1) We must keep pounding away at the lies spread by both parties about the illegal and immoral invasion and genocied that is happening in Iraq. We must continue to expose the lies and coverups behind the Bush / PNAC engineered 9/11 conspiracy. We must continue to expose the so-called "war on terrorism" for what it really is: a war *of* terrorism. Most people, including many that voted for Bush don't know all of the truth or they would hardly have relected him.
(2) We must continue to expose all of the rampant election fraud, including doctored voter rolls, voter intimidation, and the "black box" voting irregularities caused by the diebold machines. These efforts are actually having an effect. I suspect very highly that this election was engineered to assure a Bush victory by a big enough margin to make it *seem* like he was "legitimately" elected even though he wasn't so that we'd all just shut up and go away and stop complaining about this obvious theft of our right to accountability from the government. Don't let them get away with this! Keep fighting this fight. Those of you who have been involved in that fight are making progress. Don't let this setback stop you.
(3) The alternative energy magazine "Solar Today" described the U.S. as potentially the "Saudi Arabia" of wind energy. Guess where the biggest potential lies? You guessed it, the reddest of the deep "red" Redpublican states. If the workers who have been devastated by the capitalist globalization schemes and the family farmers whose farms have been sucked up by corporate agro-business could be given the power to rebuild their community through this great potential, it will not only turn these red states a very deep *green*, and utterly undermine the Republican Party's stronghold, we'll undermine the stranglehold that the fossil fuel cartel has on us by a long distance. This is a great opportunity, but to seize it we have to appeal to a lot of people we tend to turn our noses up at. we may have to temporarily endure some prejudicial attitudes, but in the long run these folks will unlearn them when they regain their lost freedoms and gain new freedom they've never had before. The Native Americasn tribes in South Dakota are already starting to lead the way. Let's give them a hand as well. If anyone is intersted, I can point you in the right direction if you want to join in these efforts.
(4) Meanwhile, I am going to keep doing what I do, and that is organizing One Big Union to overthrow wage slavery a scourge enabled by both the Republicans and Democrats.
Folks, please don't set your course on a path of self destruction. The long term results will only be increased repression, and there is enough of that already. Radicals, activists, and anarchists can either take on leadership roles in progressive causes or they can marginalize themselves. Whether well intentioned or not, demonstrations like these tend to discredit us. (take it from me a veteran of several such demonstrationsover the past decade).
I note that neither of those calling me "delusional" addressed the fact that Bush faces massive problems in the years ahead--which, I might add, can't be overcome no matter how many neo-creatures populate the executive branch of the government or how frequently their brain-dead followers pray to the bearded-one in the sky.
<<and no one on the planet has a clue how to stop them. opportunities my ass.>>
well, i would argue that the Iraqi's have a clue how to stop them. i don't see the US invading Syria or Iran--why's that, pray tell?
<<the democrats will resume their servile crawl to the right, especially if the "anarchists" i.e. activists continue to refuse to deign to enter the electoral arena and move things in a different direction.>>
a ha--there's the rub (according to you): if only more anarchists would vote, the democrats would become something worthy! bullshit. the democrats are nothing more than a (thoroughly capitalist) foil for the republicans. if they do "resume their march to the right" as you say, they will do so because of economic dictates and the imperatives of exploiters within the party (like Warren Buffet, Robert Rubin, Lee Iaococa, Walter Shorenstein, Felix Rhotyan [sic] etc etc fucking etc).
in any event, the entire point of my missive was to say FUCK THE DEMOCRATS--stop relying on them, stop thinking that they'll wage a real fight for justice, stop fitting them into a "left" movement or praying that they "really become themselves." they are themselves: complete, worthless garbage.
<<the churches beat the unions twice in a row.>>
you mean to say the fundamentalists beat a snobby neo-liberal whose party pried large sums of money from the working class by way of the union bureaucracy. i don't detect any criticism from you of this state of affairs. it's really no surprise that so many union members voted republican; after all, most union members know the democrats not as a party that makes their lives better but one that takes their money and pretends to represent them vigorously. i don't detect any critique, let alone criticism, from you of this state of affairs.
<<um. it is my contention that that's disastrous. people didn't vote their thoughts, they voted their religious sentiments. it's time we wrapped our ever superior minds around that.>>
now that so many "anarchists" have become de facto social democrats, perhaps it won't be to jarring to pick up a bible and take the show to the "heartland." is that your proposal?
i propose that we put our all into building a movement that poses a challenge to capital. i believe that a movement that holds out the hope of real change is the best (and perhaps only) way to fight the small-minded bigotry expressed in this last election.
as an aside, i'll say that i think that a lot of people who voted for bush know he isn't going to make their life better in the here-and-now. but, then again, neither are the democrats (can you deny that?). given these two options, many voted for the guy who lauds their "cultural values" while fucking them over, instead of the guy who fucks them over and doesn't flatter them in any way at all. the only way to get passed this impasse is to forge a whole new politics that holds out the promise of a world that is social in the best possible sense of the word.
<<you cant argue with that.>>
i just did.
<<and no one on the planet has a clue how to stop them. opportunities my ass.>>
well, i would argue that the Iraqi's have a clue how to stop them. i don't see the US invading Syria or Iran--why's that, pray tell?
<<the democrats will resume their servile crawl to the right, especially if the "anarchists" i.e. activists continue to refuse to deign to enter the electoral arena and move things in a different direction.>>
a ha--there's the rub (according to you): if only more anarchists would vote, the democrats would become something worthy! bullshit. the democrats are nothing more than a (thoroughly capitalist) foil for the republicans. if they do "resume their march to the right" as you say, they will do so because of economic dictates and the imperatives of exploiters within the party (like Warren Buffet, Robert Rubin, Lee Iaococa, Walter Shorenstein, Felix Rhotyan [sic] etc etc fucking etc).
in any event, the entire point of my missive was to say FUCK THE DEMOCRATS--stop relying on them, stop thinking that they'll wage a real fight for justice, stop fitting them into a "left" movement or praying that they "really become themselves." they are themselves: complete, worthless garbage.
<<the churches beat the unions twice in a row.>>
you mean to say the fundamentalists beat a snobby neo-liberal whose party pried large sums of money from the working class by way of the union bureaucracy. i don't detect any criticism from you of this state of affairs. it's really no surprise that so many union members voted republican; after all, most union members know the democrats not as a party that makes their lives better but one that takes their money and pretends to represent them vigorously. i don't detect any critique, let alone criticism, from you of this state of affairs.
<<um. it is my contention that that's disastrous. people didn't vote their thoughts, they voted their religious sentiments. it's time we wrapped our ever superior minds around that.>>
now that so many "anarchists" have become de facto social democrats, perhaps it won't be to jarring to pick up a bible and take the show to the "heartland." is that your proposal?
i propose that we put our all into building a movement that poses a challenge to capital. i believe that a movement that holds out the hope of real change is the best (and perhaps only) way to fight the small-minded bigotry expressed in this last election.
as an aside, i'll say that i think that a lot of people who voted for bush know he isn't going to make their life better in the here-and-now. but, then again, neither are the democrats (can you deny that?). given these two options, many voted for the guy who lauds their "cultural values" while fucking them over, instead of the guy who fucks them over and doesn't flatter them in any way at all. the only way to get passed this impasse is to forge a whole new politics that holds out the promise of a world that is social in the best possible sense of the word.
<<you cant argue with that.>>
i just did.
is that the opinions never change. every event and situation reiterates the preexisting ideology, which never has an existence in reality, mind you, only in the biolerplate rhetoric of someone who's thought the same thoughts for so many years that now the thoughts do the thinking and the thinker merely represents.
it's not working. maybe you argued that, but not successfully.
it's not working. maybe you argued that, but not successfully.
that doesn't mean that the Republicans will necessarily fail
as I've argued elsewhere here on indybay, I have a pretty bleak view of a militarily and financially overextended America (and, note, despite Bush's victory, the dollar fell to new lows against the euro today, perhaps a more telling analysis of the election result)
it is, however, a stretch to assume that the intensification of these crises through Bush's policies will cause an immediate public backlash against him
one of the most disturbing aspects of the Bush presidency, and the neo-conservatives in the foreign policy arena, is the extent to which they are empowered by more public support as a result of their failures
9/11, the catastrophe in Iraq, a stagnant economy, with the short term consequence being that Bush has been able to effectively manipulate fear and anxiety to concentrate more power in himself, as people turn towards a Christian fundamentalist, millenial interpretation of their lives
as a result of this populist provincialism, the most immediate domestic consequence of this election, as noted by Sidney Blumenthal in a Salon.com article, is that an alarmingly large percentage of the public has abandoned any willingness to consider rational, cooperative endeavors, domestically or abroad, instead preferring "a strong leader" in Bush, blissfully unconcerned as to whether he is going to show his backbone by driving the whole country over a cliff
indeed, the Bush campaign frequently suggested that the concept of objective analysis, based upon rational thought, to address problems, instead of relying upon faith and moral certainty, was heretical, as noted both by Blumenthal and Ron Suskind in an amazing article for the New York Times Magazine a couple of weeks ago
the other consequence, recognized by Blumenthal, is that the Democratic Party has shown itself completely incapable of resisting the radical Christian fundamentalist movement's goal of transforming America into a theocratic state independent of any accountability to the rest of the world
(and, before I get flamed, please note the limited context of my statement, we are not even talking about resistance to globalization and the America's global military and economic reach, just the ability to maintain the secular nature of American social life)
at best, the Democrats will be neurotically self-absorbed with their defeat, at worst, they will collaborate in the process by legitimizing the Republicans, which they have historically so skillfully done, by transforming themselves into a kinder, gentler evangelical party
so, there will certainly be opportunities for the left, independent of the party structure, but those opportunities will also reflect the extremely dire domestic and global situation, and there is no guarantee that we will prevail
we will only succeed if we creatively develop methods of resistance and mutual assistance to attracts people in difficult times because otherwise they may, similar to what has transpired with poor, abandoned people in Asia and the Middle East over the last 30 years, flock to a Christian, domestic version of "political Islam"
perhaps, this might partially explain why so-called "enlightened" capitalists wanted Kerry to win and broke ranks with the Republicans to give him enormous sums of money to finance his failed effort
--Richard Estes
Davis, CA
as I've argued elsewhere here on indybay, I have a pretty bleak view of a militarily and financially overextended America (and, note, despite Bush's victory, the dollar fell to new lows against the euro today, perhaps a more telling analysis of the election result)
it is, however, a stretch to assume that the intensification of these crises through Bush's policies will cause an immediate public backlash against him
one of the most disturbing aspects of the Bush presidency, and the neo-conservatives in the foreign policy arena, is the extent to which they are empowered by more public support as a result of their failures
9/11, the catastrophe in Iraq, a stagnant economy, with the short term consequence being that Bush has been able to effectively manipulate fear and anxiety to concentrate more power in himself, as people turn towards a Christian fundamentalist, millenial interpretation of their lives
as a result of this populist provincialism, the most immediate domestic consequence of this election, as noted by Sidney Blumenthal in a Salon.com article, is that an alarmingly large percentage of the public has abandoned any willingness to consider rational, cooperative endeavors, domestically or abroad, instead preferring "a strong leader" in Bush, blissfully unconcerned as to whether he is going to show his backbone by driving the whole country over a cliff
indeed, the Bush campaign frequently suggested that the concept of objective analysis, based upon rational thought, to address problems, instead of relying upon faith and moral certainty, was heretical, as noted both by Blumenthal and Ron Suskind in an amazing article for the New York Times Magazine a couple of weeks ago
the other consequence, recognized by Blumenthal, is that the Democratic Party has shown itself completely incapable of resisting the radical Christian fundamentalist movement's goal of transforming America into a theocratic state independent of any accountability to the rest of the world
(and, before I get flamed, please note the limited context of my statement, we are not even talking about resistance to globalization and the America's global military and economic reach, just the ability to maintain the secular nature of American social life)
at best, the Democrats will be neurotically self-absorbed with their defeat, at worst, they will collaborate in the process by legitimizing the Republicans, which they have historically so skillfully done, by transforming themselves into a kinder, gentler evangelical party
so, there will certainly be opportunities for the left, independent of the party structure, but those opportunities will also reflect the extremely dire domestic and global situation, and there is no guarantee that we will prevail
we will only succeed if we creatively develop methods of resistance and mutual assistance to attracts people in difficult times because otherwise they may, similar to what has transpired with poor, abandoned people in Asia and the Middle East over the last 30 years, flock to a Christian, domestic version of "political Islam"
perhaps, this might partially explain why so-called "enlightened" capitalists wanted Kerry to win and broke ranks with the Republicans to give him enormous sums of money to finance his failed effort
--Richard Estes
Davis, CA
I think both protesting and focused strategies are called for. If we don't protest, then FEAR wins, and dissent dwindles...
This link might also shed some light. Apparently there was a document circulating in the right-wing Christian community, signed by more than 70 evangelical leaders suggesting how people should vote. It uses excerpts from the bible to justify each and every point that is most important for the religious right-wing agenda.Consider it the "Holy Slate":
http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002622
The Televangelists won! Separation of Church and State is dwindling.
This link might also shed some light. Apparently there was a document circulating in the right-wing Christian community, signed by more than 70 evangelical leaders suggesting how people should vote. It uses excerpts from the bible to justify each and every point that is most important for the religious right-wing agenda.Consider it the "Holy Slate":
http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002622
The Televangelists won! Separation of Church and State is dwindling.
For more information:
http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimat...
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