10/2 This Saturday: Conference on Palestinian Rights

How very special! An entire day of Jew-bashing! What a bunch of tools.

The campaign against this conference, as reflected in a previous comment, is to accuse it of bashing an ethnic group. That is simply untrue. The purpose of the conference is in opposition of a particular policies of a particular State (heavily subsidized by the u.s.a.) that is resulting in the dispossession of the Palestinian people. By conflating these policies and being Jewish, as the opponents of this conference would do, is truly anti-semitic.

It would be like saying opposing Republican policies is an act of white-bashing, rather than, as most of us see it, as just common sense.

'a particular State (heavily subsidized by the u.s.a.) that is resulting in the dispossession of the Palestinian people.'

You mean Jordan? Jordan IS 'palestine'. 70% of Jordan is palestinian. The government of Jordan is currently OCCUPIED by the Hashemites.
During the last palestinians hissy fit in Jordan, King Hussein massacred 20,000--Black September

The Palestinian people weren't disposesed. It is the Palestinians who want to disposes the Israelis.

To those who say "Jordan is Palestine", with the implication that Palestinians should just pack up and leave for there, this refrain sounds so familiar.

It was not so long ago that those who cried out for justice in the u.s.a. were told by organized racists that they should just leave for Africa.

In fact, Chris Brown of San Francisco, of the Christian Peacemaker Team, was just attacked by hooded racist Israeli Settler thugs in Hebron this past week, as he escorted children to school. So they not only adapt the ideology and tactics, but even the fashion!

Be aware that such organized, systematic racism is sure to fail. And that is why there will be a desperate, though futile attempt to stop the conference... and the agenda for justice.
enda for justice.

'To those who say "Jordan is Palestine", with the implication that Palestinians should just pack up and leave for there'

Although the majority of 'palestinians' still hold Jordanian passports...the Jordanians won't have them.

That's ethnic cleansing by definition. Ethnic cleansing is the heart, soul and essence of Zionism.

It is true that the Jordanians don't want the Arafat people. In fact, Arafat was expelled from there, and at the same time the Jordanians killed 3,000 of his people.
And it was the same in other parts, such as Lebanon.

The reason is that the PLO keep on being terrorists wherever they go, and so the native populations and governments have to do something to get rid of them.

And yet you are never troubled by many Palestinians' desire that Jews would just pack up and leave for "Europe". That wish is racist by definition. Your selective indifference to this kind of racism is the heart, soul and essence of your brand of anti-Zionism.

as anyone else who can make themselves welcome. What they do not have is the right to lord it over others with military force.

Let's see you state at least once -- without trying to deflect or attack me -- that it is wrong for *any* anti-Zionist to be indifferent to the racist desires rampant in Palestinian Arab society that all Jews in the Land of Israel pack up and leave for "Europe", and that Arab Muslims are entitled to lord it over Jews and all other non-Muslims till they leave.

CT has not demonstrated that it is rampant, or if it is, that that is either wrong or relevant. All these things may be true. Or not. Either way, he hasn't proved it. The truth of the conclusion is assumed by his premises. That is begging the question by definition.

How typical of a Zionist to attempt to delude you and change the subject by using a logical fallacy. Don't fall for it. Israel is a colonial settler state, no different fro Boor era South Africa. It was founded ethnic cleansing by invaders from abroad. Note how hard the Zionist propaganda mill avoids trying to defend the indefensible.

Blaming others for one's own faults is what psychology calls "projection." It is not only pathological behavior. It, too, is bunk logic. If “they do it, too” were a valid excuse, Hitler would be off the hook for killing those six million Jews, because Stalin killed six million Ukrainians.

THE CONFERENCE WAS HIGHLY *HIGHLY* SUCCESSFUL!

THERE WERE MANY PEOPLE IN ATTENDANCE, INCLUDING MANY MANY JEWS, AS WELL AS PALESTINIANS AND OTHER PRO-HUMAN RIGHTS PEOPLE OF CONSCIENCE.

THERE WERE LOTS OF HIGH SCHOOL AND MIDDLE SCHOOL KIDS IN ATTENDANCE, MANY OF THEM JEWISH.


THERE WERE ALSO, UNFORTUNATELY, SOME ZIONIST JEWISH SKINHEADS WITH THEIR APARTHEID ISRAELI FLAGS WHO TRIED TO CRASH THE CONFERENCE.

AND MORE JEWISH KLANSMEN YELLING FROM ACROSS THE STREET WITH THEIR SEA OF ISRAELI FLAGS (AND A FEW AMERICAN FLAGS)

-- JUST LIKE SOUTHERN 'CHRISTIAN' KLANSMEN YELLING AND WAVING THEIR CONFEDERATE AND AMERICAN FLAGS ACROSS FROM BLACK FREEDOM FIGHTERS AND THEIR ALLIES.

WE TOLD THEM *IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS* THAT THEY WERE *NOT* COMING IN.

THE POLICE CAME TO SEPARATE THE ZIONAZI KLANSMEN FROM US.

THE REDNECK JEWS WITH THEIR ISRAELI AND AMERICAN FLAGS TRIED TO PERSUADE ONE BULLDDOG-LOOKING COP TO LET TWO OF THEM.

THE COP AT FIRST AGREED, DECLARING OUR CONFERENCE A PUBLIC EVENT.

*I'VE* HAD PLENTY OF EXPERIENCE WITH BULLDOGS *AND* PIGS.

I SAID TO THE COP, 'WHOA!! THIS ISN'T OPEN TO THOSE JEWISH KLANSMEN JUST BECAUSE *YOU* SAY IT'S "A PUBLIC EVENT" AND THEREFORE "OPEN" TO THEM!

THE BULLDOG COP SAID THAT IT WAS AND THAT HE WAS GOING TO ESCORT TWO OF THE SKINHEAD JEWS INTO THE CONFERENCE.

I SAID, "NO WAY! THIS ISN'T *ISRAEL*!"

I SAID THAT THE TELEVSION MEDIA -- RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM -- THERE WOULD *TWIST* IT AND MAKE IT LOOK LIKE THE POLICE ESCORTING THE TWO JEWISH SKINHEADS HAD TO PROTECT THOSE (ZIONAZI) JEWS FROM US, AND NOT MENTION THAT THERE WERE PLENTY OF JEWS ATTENDING THE CONFERENCE, RATHER THAN PROTECT US FROM THOSE ZIONAZI SKINHEAD JEWS.

I TOLD THE BULLDOG COP THAT 'YOU'RE ACTIONS DON'T FLY JUST BECAUSE *YOU* SAY THAT IT'S LEGAL, AND I GOT ON THE PHONE -- PRACTICALLY IN THE BULLDOG COPS FACE -- TO CONSULT WITH THREE ATTORNEY FRIENDS OF MINE (ONE OF THEM JEWISH).

(WE ALSO HAD AN ATTORNEY THERE, AS WELL AS OTHER CONFERENCE OFFICIALS AND SPOKESPERSONS CAUCUSING AND CONSULTING, BUT THE MORE ATTORNEYS OF CONSCIENCE, THE BETTER.)

ONE PALESTINIAN SAID THAT "OUR COMMUNITY -- INCLUDING PALESTINIANS, JEWS, AND NON-JEWS -- WOULD NOT BE SAFE WITH THOSE SKINHEADS COMING INSIDE."

I POINTED OUT TO THE COP THAT THE PALESTINIAN WAS A PROMINENT UNIVERSITY OF SAN FRANCISCO PROFESSOR, WELL-KNOWN AND HIGHLY-REGARDED THROUGHOUT THE BAY AREA. JUST SO THAT COP KNEW WHO HE WAS DEALING WITH.

THE PALESTINIAN PROFESSOR RIGHTLY SAID THAT IT WOULD BE LIKE FORCING THE NAACP TO LET THE KKK, UNDER POLICE ESCORT, INTO AN NAACP CONFERENCE.

WE ALL -- ESPECIALLY ONE PARTICULARLY COOL AND STRONG PALESTINIAN CONFERENCE OFFICIAL -- FINALLY BLUNTLY TOLD THE BULLDOG COP, "WE'VE MADE A DECISION: THE WHITE ZIONAZI SKINHEADS ARE NOT COMING IN. DO WHAT YOU GOTTA DO."

A CROWD -- PALESTINIANS, JEWS, AND NON-JEWS -- *ALL* OF US -- WOMEN AND MEN -- YOUNG AND OLD -- STANDING TOGETHER -- FOR HUMAN RIGHTS -- STOOD UP TO THE ZIONAZIS AND AGAINST OPPRESSION -- AND BLOCKED THE ENTRANCE AND THEIR WAY.

THE BULLDOG COP CALLED HIS HANDLER CAPTAIN BACK AT THE STATION.

THE COP'S CAPTAIN CAME OUT FROM BACK AT THE STATION.

THE CAPTAIN GAVE IN.

TOLD THE BULLDOG TO *HEEL*!!

THE BULLDOG BACKED DOWN.

PEOPLE POWER!! -- BLOCKED UNCONSCIONABLE GOVERMENT POWER.

WE WON.

A typical anti-Zionist's image:

using logical fallacy

trying to defend the indefensible

blaming others for his faults

pathological behavior

His logic:
Palestinia terrorists are off the hook for killing Jews, because Stalin killed Ukranians.

from a buffoon who is employing a whole array of anti-Zionist tricks, non of whom are impressive.

Let's try this again: are you capable of admitting -- without trying to deflect or attack me -- that it's wrong for *any* anti-Zionist to be indifferent to the racist desires rampant in Palestinian Arab society that all Jews in the Land of Israel pack up and leave for "Europe", and that Arab Muslims are entitled to lord it over Jews and all other non-Muslims till they leave.

I know such desires are rampant in Palestinian society because I read about it often in both Israeli and Palestinian sources.


P.S.: you got one thing right -- I and many other non-AZs do our darndest to avoid trying to defend the indefensible. We leave such advocacy to you and your likes.

>>>You mean Jordan? Jordan IS 'palestine'. 70% of Jordan is palestinian. The government of Jordan is currently OCCUPIED by the Hashemites.
During the last palestinians hissy fit in Jordan, King Hussein massacred 20,000--Black September<<<

But the West Bank was not Part of the Original 1948 Israel...

Before 1967 the West Bank was part of Jordan.
The majority of the People who now live in the West Bank were born and have lived in the West Bank all their lives.

So we either need a Palestinian State called for in the Road Map to Peace in the Whole of the West Bank and Gaza or Since the West Bank has a mojority of Palestinian People, it will have to all go back to Jordan. But if the People of the West Bank prefer to have their own State instead of being part of Jordan, then in the Interest of Peace the want of the majority should be respected.

Just like it would be outrageous to try and ethnic cleanse some 5,000,000 Jews from the area.
It would also be an equal outrage to try and ethnic cleanse some 4,000,000 Palestinians from the area.
So let Israel have its Country in its pre 1967 Borders and let the Palestinians have their Country in the Whole of the West Bank and Gaza.

If you were to say that it would be wrong, to say to the Jews that even though they were born and have lived in Israel all their lives they had to move to the U.S. and Europe because there are Jews living in the U.S. and Europe.

It would be just as wrong to say to the Palestinian who were born and have lived all their lives in the West Bank and Gaza they had to move to Jordan just because some Palestinians happen to live in Jordan.

Nationalist Zionism in Palestine, as Gandhi formally said in 1938, was "a crime against humanity".

The UN partition of Palestine "Israel" already gave European settler-colonialist Jews, who were about 30% of Palestine, about 56% of the land. That left 70% of the population with only about *44%* of Palestine. Israel, in it's so-called "war of independence" then grabbed about 70% of the land, and militarily driving out -- ethnically cleansing -- with violent force (as *Israeli* historian Benny Morris pointed out in his book "Righteous Victims") the Palestinians. Even so, the UN-partitioned Israel was *never* attacked by any Arab country -- countries that otherwise *individually, respectively, and independently* went in, with their respective armies, to gain land that they saw that Israel was likely to take (as history has shown later). So, the 1948 Israeli land grab was no more legitimate or moral than the original non-European land give-away to European Jewish colonists.

And as I say, as a person who also comes from a people who have also been brutalized and oppressed for centuries by Europeans, *NO* AMOUNT OF SUFFERING ENTITLES ONE TO TAKE OR BE GIVEN THE HOMES AND LAND OF ANOTHER FAR AWAY PEOPLE.

IF Europeans wanted to atone for European sins and the European-perpetrated holocaust against European Jews, then Europeans should have given European Jews a nation-state in *EUROPE*!!

The Jews were being attacked by the Arabs even before the foundation of Israel. And, as soon as the British Army left, they were attacked by Arabs.

The "Palestinians" didn't exist at that time. In fact, they started existing well within the 20 century, after the 6 Day War.
===========
You are more handsome when you don't insult.

I am very sorry, believe me, for what was done to your ancestors and to other people. But you have also to understand that the people who live now are not responsible for it. You are full of hatred and so you are harming yourself.

Indybay should ban Zionist liars like Sefarad. He is obviously an Israeli operative... a racist Zionist who lies thru his teeth, like all Zionists do constantly. We read enough of their bullshit in the Zionized newspapers.

The first part of your statement is true: I am Zionist

The second one is not true because I am not a liar.
So you are a liar.

And those people who don't give arguments since they have none, want to make the others scared.

You can go on barking. It might be that I got material for more cards. I have run out of it since a person I know started behaving as a civilised person. So I am now a little bored and if somebody gives me something exciting for those cards, it will be OK.

Go ahead.

I am waiting for that material, guy.

Indybay should ban nazi liars like the anonymus above (post of October 4, 2004 at 11:00 AM). He is obviously a Hamas operative and a racist nazi who lies thru his teeth, like all Nazis do constantly . We read enough of their bullshit nazi propaganda.

Nah, that's just Wendy Campbell. She sees Israeli operatives in her corn flakes. Among the organizations she's called "Zionized" was SF-IMC.

@%<

Sefarad: "The "Palestinians" didn't exist at that time."

European colonists in America: "There are no people here -- only millions of Indians."

Jew-deniers: "There are no Jews -- they are only Khazars."

Founding Israeli Zionists: 'We drove off nearly a million indigenous people who didn't exist.'

Rhetorical genocide precedes ethnic cleansing or physical genocide.

Check dictionaries from the 1920s for what the word "Palestinian" meant then, JA, and you might be shocked.

@%<

European colonists in America didn't say what you state. A different thing is that at that time they claimed a right of conquest and so the colonists appropriated those lands. But they never said there were not Indians. They knew there were the Cheyenne people, or the Navajo people, or the Aymara people, etc.

As for the "Palestinians", a "Palestinian" people had never existed, because they are Arabs. Till 1967 the "occuppied territories" were in Arab hands. Why didn't they proclaimed their independence at that time?

You can look it up not only in dictionaries but in the UN resolutions as well.

It does not matter what People want to call themselves.

Before 1948 there was no Modern Day State of Israel.
After 1948 the Jews who lived in that Area decided to call themselves Israelis, because they lived in the newly formed State of Israel.

After the 1967 Conflict, the Arabs who lived in the West Bank were no longer part of Jordan, but Instead they were Occupied by Israel. They no longer wanted to call themselves Jordanians so they decided to call themselves Palestinians.

Just like it was "O.K." for the Jews to call themselves Israelis in 1948. It is also "O.K." for the Arabs in the West Bank to call themselves Palestinians.

Just like it is "O.K." the the People of the U.S. like to call themselves Americans.

(I won't even bother to respond to Sefarad because her ignorance is even more *obvious* than gehrig's.)

ANGEL makes a very good -- and a morally critical -- point above: "It does not matter what [indigenous] People want to call themselves."


Gehrig, I know that you morally backflipping Zionists would never get the point, but the point is that IT DOESN'T MATTER *what* the Palestinian Arabs were called or called themselves. Especially as indigenous people, it doesn't matter *who* they were or what they were called or what they called themselves; it doesn't even matter *what* the land was called:

THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE LIVING ON THE LAND HAD A *RIGHT* TO BE THERE -- WITHOUT BEING ETHNICALLY CLEANSED, MASSACRED, AND VIOLENTLY DRIVEN OFF BY EUROPEAN ZIONIST JEWS -- JEWS, WHO SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE *FIRST* PEOPLE IN THE WORLD AT THE TIME TO MORALLY *KNOW* BETTER -- *BECAUSE* THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE LIVING ON THE LAND *LIVED* THERE.

FOR ZIONISTS TO DO THAT TO THE PALESTINIAN ARABS MORALLY MAKES ZIONISTS NO BETTER THAN THE NAZIS (WHICH, AS WE NOW KNOW, ISRAEL'S FOUNDING ZIONISTS HAD ATTEMPTED TO COLLABORATE WITH.
-- See Jewish scholar on the history of Zionism/Israel, Lenni Brenner's book, "51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis").

BEFORE THERE WERE JEWISH REFUGEES, THERE WERE ARMENIAN REFUGEES FROM ARMENIAN PERSECUTION AND THE ARMENIAN HOLOCAUST, BUT THE ARMENIANS WERE WELCOMED BY THE PALESTINIAN ARABS, BECAUSE THE ARMENIANS DIDN'T TRY TO TAKE THE PALESTINIAN ARABS' HOMES AND LAND.

AS SOMEONE WHO ALSO COMES FROM A PEOPLE WHO HAVE SUFFERED FOR CENTURIES AT THE HANDS OF EUROPEANS, I CAN SAY THAT *NO* AMOUNT OF SUFFERING MORALLY ENTITLES ANYONE TO SYSTEMATICALLY OR FORCIBLY TAKE OR BE GIVEN THE HOMES AND LAND OF ANOTHER.

I don't argue that the Palestinians aren't a nation _now_, JA. I only argue that, like so many of the Arab nations after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, their division into a unique identity was historically arbitrary, and that what Palestinian Arabs originally called "Palestine" includes southern Syria, southern Lebanon, and Jordan.

As for the rest of your post, I usually stop reading when you go into the patented JA all-caps *******R-R-R-R-RANT MODE!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!* Did you say anything there you haven't said a hundred times already?

@%<

Arbitrary is correct.

Even an ape can punch enough keys to make a correct sentence eventually, or so it is said.

So why couldn´t a "gehrig"?

Because their fake politically drawn "national boundaries" were drawn, without their public inclusion in any part of the arbitrary decision making process, by the French and British colonial powers that controlled all Semitic cultures in the Middle and Near East in the early 1900´s. As any honest student of history will readily admit.

However, since the Jewish refugees were stated, without any legal mandate whatsoever by British and French colonial aggressors to be given a homeland, not someone elses home to call their own nationstate, I notice there weren´t any arbitrary borders drawn called "Israel" at the time, defining a specific ficticious border drawn around those of Jewish extraction for their racist, apartheid "nation", were there?

As for there being no Palestinians or a place colloquially and internationally known as Palestine, prior to that particular colonial venture which is beyond refute the root cause of the ongoing manipulation of Jews, Christians, and Muslim Semites alike, tell that to all the Jews, Christians, Muslims, Carcassians, and others who lived there prior to that era.

' However, since the Jewish refugees were stated, without any legal mandate whatsoever by British and French colonial aggressors to be given a homeland, not someone elses home to call their own nationstate, I'

At the same time, they created Trans-Jordan, Syria, Saudia Arabia etc...
what makes those nations more legitimate than Israel? (Ooooh oooh I know...no Jews!!)
Where was the mandate to give the hashemites 80% of historic palestine?

gerhig: "Did you say anything there you haven't said a hundred times already?"

I'd only have time to rebut you, at most, just half as many times as you Zionists *REPEAT* your Zionist propaganda, okay?

gerhig: "I only argue that, like so many of the Arab nations after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, their division into a unique identity was historically arbitrary"

So, *ALL* Arabs are just alike and completely interchangeable, huh gerhig? Just like all Europeans? There aren't different Arab ethnic groups, just like with Europeans?

By the way, historical/Biblical Palestine never included *all* of Jordan (an artificial European creation), and was never even "defined" as such even by the British, just 'defined' as such by all of "Zionist Propaganda Palestine" in order to conveniently and pretextually excuse Zionist ethnic cleansing atrocities. But you Zionists just lie and lie and never say die! -- huh gerhig?


Excellent points, Robert: "Arbitrary as in "Israel", gehrig?"

And not even the Palestinian Jews were consulted about the formation of Israel, "a(n ideologically) Jewish state"; they opposed those European Jews coming over to set up such a state. In fact, the Palestinian Jews were scorned by the European Jews.

And JA is an ignorant thug, a nazi and a fascist.

" the "Tireless"
by gehrig is a great guy "


YOU *KNOW* YOU'RE IN MENTAL TROUBLE WHEN *SEFARAD* STARTS COMPLIMENTING YOU!!

NOW, NON-CT, YOU START COMPLIMENTING GEHRIG TOO, PLEASE! TELL US HOW WONDERFUL HE IS! COMMON, REALLY LAVISH IT ON!

HAHAHA!!

ROTFLMAO!!

Being so smart, why do you leave all my posts unanswered?

I just realized, gehrig, that the only Zionists left (that I know of -- I don't read *all* the threads) on indybay are you, non-Critical Thinkifier, and the recent Sefarad. Now Sefarad is clearly *non compos mentis*! Non-CT is a mental cripple! And you are the only Zionist foil even worth anyone's time at all! Are you, essentially, the last man/woman Zionist standing? One day it will be that way in Israel/Palestine: you'll be the *laaaast* Zionist standing.

Why don't you stop making fun of yourself and rebut my arguments in the posts where I argue?
And why don't you reply to my questions, one of them being if you hate foreigners?

>>>"I know that you morally backflipping Zionists would never get the point, but the point is that IT DOESN'T MATTER *what* the Palestinian Arabs were called or called themselves."<<<

This isn't a trivial point like JA would have everyone believe. The Arabs of the Land of Israel only began calling themselves "Palestinians" and subsequently being referred to as such once the notion of exploiting the name "Palestine" for the purpose of destroying the Jewish state and driving all Jews out ~without uniting politically with Syria~ gained sufficient currency among these Arabs.

>>>" Especially as indigenous people, it doesn't matter *who* they were or what they were called or what they called themselves; it doesn't even matter *what* the land was called:

Except they weren't really an indigenous people. They might have been in absolute terms more indigenous than the Jews in the Land of Israel, but not a whole lot more. There are various sources of evidence testifying to their places of origin, some of which were quite remote from the Middle East (does the Caucas region ring a bell?). This point has been discussed previously on SF-IMC. JA had no recourse other than to try to tar one of the sources of evidence I garnered as "the Zionist Protocols of the Elders of Zion".

>>>"THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE LIVING ON THE LAND HAD A *RIGHT* TO BE THERE -- WITHOUT BEING ETHNICALLY CLEANSED, MASSACRED, AND VIOLENTLY DRIVEN OFF BY EUROPEAN ZIONIST JEWS -- JEWS, WHO SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE *FIRST* PEOPLE IN THE WORLD AT THE TIME TO MORALLY *KNOW* BETTER -- *BECAUSE* THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE LIVING ON THE LAND *LIVED* THERE."<<<

But prior to these almost totally fabricated Jewish/Zionist "massacres", "ethnic cleansing", "genocides" and what have you, some of the Palestinians' ancestors had committed many acts of murder, massacre and ethnic cleansing against innocent Jews, including indigenous ones. Does Aug 1929 in Hebron ring a bell, JA? How about Jaffa 1909? Petah Tikva in 1886? The anti-Jewish "riots" of 1920, '21, '36-'39, and so forth?
You -- as a descendent of people who were traumatized by being kidnapped, sold to slavery, forcefully shipped to the American continent and worked to their bones -- should at least ~try~ to appreciate the truth, even if you were reared on in an anti-Semitic environment.

>>>"FOR ZIONISTS TO DO THAT TO THE PALESTINIAN ARABS MORALLY MAKES ZIONISTS NO BETTER THAN THE NAZIS (WHICH, AS WE NOW KNOW, ISRAEL'S FOUNDING ZIONISTS HAD ATTEMPTED TO COLLABORATE WITH. "<<<<
-- See Jewish scholar on the history of Zionism/Israel, Lenni Brenner's book, "51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis"). "<<<

A compulsive liar just quoted a far more notorious liar.

>>>"By the way, historical/Biblical Palestine never included *all* of Jordan (an artificial European creation), and was never even "defined" as such even by the British,

You're just lying through your teeth.

>>>"[historical/Biblical Palestine was] just 'defined' as such by all of "Zionist Propaganda Palestine" in order to conveniently and pretextually excuse Zionist ethnic cleansing atrocities.

Pure bullshit.

>>>"And not even the Palestinian Jews were consulted about the formation of Israel, "a(n ideologically) Jewish state"; they opposed those European Jews coming over to set up such a state. In fact, the Palestinian Jews were scorned by the European Jews."<<<

JA is talking about the non-Zionist and anti-Zionist portions of Holy Land Jewry known collectively as the Old Yishuv. But he omits that not all those Jews were opposed to the endeavors and wish of independence by Zionist Jews from Europe, as well as the fact that only the anti-Zionist elements among the Old Yishuv were scorned by the Zionists.

>>>"I just realized, gehrig, that the only Zionists left (that I know of -- I don't read *all* the threads) on indybay are you, non-Critical Thinkifier, and the recent Sefarad. Now Sefarad is clearly *non compos mentis*! Non-CT is a mental cripple! And you are the only Zionist foil even worth anyone's time at all! Are you, essentially, the last man/woman Zionist standing? One day it will be that way in Israel/Palestine: you'll be the *laaaast* Zionist standing."<<<

Apparently JA is running out of fodder to throw into his rant furnace, so he starts recycling material from elsewhere.

Sefarad: "The 'Palestinians' didn't exist at that time"

JA: "European colonists in America: 'There are no people here -only millions of Indians."

Sefarad:

"European colonists in America didn't say what you state (...) They knew there were the Cheyenne people, or the Navajo people, or the Aymara people, etc.

"A Palestinian people have never existed, because they were Arabs. Till 1967 the "occupied territories" were in Arab hands. Why didn't they proclaim their independence at that time?"

Angel:

"It doesn't matter what people want to call themselves".

JA:

(I won't even bother to respond to Sefarad because her ignorance is even more *obvious* than gehrig's)

"Angel makes a very good -and a moral critical- point above: 'It doesn't matter what (indigenous) People want to call themselves".


IN CONCLUSION:

First there was an Arab Palestinian people before the foundation of the modern state of Israel.

In the ending, it doesn't matter, what matters is what people want to call themselves.

-- See Jewish scholar on the history of Zionism/Israel, Lenni Brenner's book, "51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis"). "<<<

non-CT: "A compulsive liar just quoted a far more notorious liar."

I'm working: don't have time, right now, to respond to your pathetic rebuttals, but, in the meantime, HERE'S **A CHALLENGE** TO YOU NON-'CT' -- OR ANY OF YOUR L'IL ZIONIST ILK:

LENNI BRENNER IS IN THE BAY AREA THIS WEEK!

FREE SPEECH MOVEMENT 40th ANNIVERSARY PROGRAM
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 7th:

12:00-1:00 p.m.: Panel: FSM & Sixties: Lessons for Today:

- Alex Cockburn* [CounterPunch],
- LENNI BRENNER*,
- Jack Heyman* [ILWU],
- Michael Rossman*

(Sproul Plaza near Bancroft Ave.)


*AND*

The Middle East Radio Project presents:

FORUM: "ZIONISM, the Democrats & Kerry"

SUNDAY, OCTOBER 10TH, 7:30PM.

Fellowship of Humanities
390 - 27th St. (near Broadway)
Oakland


(organized by anti-Zionist Jews) with

- Lenni Brenner, Author of "Zionism In The Age Of Dictators" and was active during the FSM in Berkeley.

- Ralph Schoneman, Co-host of WBAI "Taking Aim" and author of "The Hidden History Of Zionism".


NOW, WHY DON'T YOU AND YOUR L'IL *CHICKENSHIT* ZIONIST CHUMS BRING YOURSELVES OUT THERE TO *CHALLENGE* HIM/THEM DURING THE VERY EXTENDED, EXTREMELY GENEROUS Q&A/DISCUSSION SESSION?

AND CHECK OUT THE INDYBAY CALENDAR (OR THE GLOBAL EXCHANGE CALENDAR at globalexchange.org): THERE ARE ANTI-ZIONISM EVENTS IN THE BAY AREA ALL THE TIME. BRING YOUR *CHICKENSHIT* L'IL/BIG ASS OUT THERE AND TRY TO CHALLENGE THE EXPERTS!

THURS EVENING (look up the time)

"WOMEN, PEACE, & SOCIAL JUSTICE IN ISRAEL/PALESTINE
St. Boniface Church
741 Golden Gate Ave.
(between Jones and Leavenworth;
2 blocks from the Civic Center Bart)
San Francisco

PUT UP! -- OR *SHUT* UP!!

[sound effects: BAWWWK... BUK-BUK-BUK--BUK-BUK-BUK...!! ]

HAHAHA..!!

14 OCTOBER, THURSDAY
6:30 - 7:30 p.m.

- DR. HATEM BAZIAN (UC Berkeley Palestinian-American scholar),
- Janette Faulkner,
- Jorge Emmanuel,
- Lillian Galedo.
- Max Elbaum.

SF Main Library,
Lower Level, Koret Auditorium,
100 Larkin Street,
San Francisco

SEFARAD:

"The Palestinians didn't exist at that time"

JA:

"European colonists in America: 'There are no people here -only millions of Indians"

SEFARAD

"European colonists in America didn't say what you satate (...). They knew there were the Cheyenne people, or the Navajo people, or the Aymara people, etc.

"A Palestinian people never existed, because they are Arabs. Till 1967 the 'occupied territories' were in Arab hands. Why dind't they proclaim their independence at that time?"

ANGEL:

"It doesn't matter what people want to call themselves.

JA:

"(I won't even bother to respond to Sefarad because her ignorance is even more *obvious* than gehrig's).

"Angel makes a very good -and moral critial point above: it doesn't matter what (indigenous) People want to call themselves"

IN CONCLUSION:

First there was an Arab Palestinian people before the foundation of the modern state of Israel.

In the ending it doesn't matter what the people call themselves.

IRAQ, PALESTINE, & THE MIDDLE EAST:
WHERE DO WE GO NOW?

Thursday, October 7th

8:00pm

126 Barrows Hall, UC Berkeley


Speakers:

- DR. HATEM BAZIAN,

- Alison Weir,

- Dr. Abyass


The Cal Muslim Students Association is hosting a teach-in on Iraq, Palestine, and the Middle East. With the escalation of violence by the US military in Iraq and the aggressive incursions being carried out by the Israelis in Palestine, the question of resistance, liberation, and self-determination have become ever more pressing.

Join the MSA for a discussion on the situation and the way forward in the Middle East.

Take off your vampire costume, come out of your hiding place and face the my rebuttals -- *the* relevant challenge on this thread. I'm sure you make time for what you deem important.

THAT'S *RRRIIIGHHHHT*!!


(and *when* I think it's important -- and have the time.)

Have you read my post of October 6 at 9.26 AM?

I'm forced to conclude you're one hell of a chicken; only that you try to disguise your cowardice as lack of time and by attributing to my rebuttals lesser importance.

As Salaam Alaykum Masha´Allah!

The facts of British, French, American, Italian, German, Turkish, and Russian colonial aggression are certainly evident with regard to ALL Semitic cultures which includes all Arabic tribes.

You are right, there was equally NO mandate whatsoever for colonial aggressors to dictate which group or tribe or sheikdom (please give me the correct vernacular so I can learn!) would unilaterally be "granted" overlordship over others of equal stature as humans.

There was only an open and long since factually proven lie of constructive support for Arab as well as other Semitic independence and self determination.


As I have repeatedly stated (and which demonstrates more amply than anything else that I am, if anything, rabidly PRO-Semitic), when ALL Semitic peoples recognize the identity and true nature of their lethal aggressor, develop the means to serve and protect their regional and individual rights, and work together for regional prosperity and peace, then rivers will flow beneath the gardens there.

Until then, there are no winners and only losers in the entire region. There are only societies and beliefs manipulated deliberately to extort material profits in the interests of a criminal corporate enterprise.

Perhaps it is time for those truly interested in attaining self determination and independence for all that proposals for viable regional cooperation be put forward?

-- Oil for land (fix that "Palestinian problem" in about 24 hrs!)
-- Water for oil
-- Multilateral regional bio-planning
-- Multinational regional emergency response task groups
-- Disarmament excepting multinational defense groupings
-- Recognition of mutually defined nationstate of Israel*
-- Acceptance of UN oversight/observers during transition
-- Adherence to Middle East WMD free zone excepting
regional mutual self-defense weapons and delivery systems
-- MFN or similar between all regional members

*Israel: a pluralist, secular, democratic state based on fair and equal representation of all citizens rights irregardless of demographic or religious affiliation.

Sure. When pigs fly. For now it just so much more convenient to simply focus on "blame the Jews" or the claim that "Muslims are terrorists who hate our freedoms".

Vote for Nader.

Make this election a clear message that the end of corporate tyranny posing as honest and representative government has begun.

I don't see you using your real name. I think that it's very courageous of JA, and others, to stand up to you Zionists using their real names. I sure wouldn't expose myself to you crazies. Other than that, I believe that you do indeed exagerate your importance and your intelligence, "Critical Thinker".

Look, you don't really know me, for starters. I don't disclose my name, but that has nothing to do with fear; fact is, I have been corresponding on occasion with some neo-Nazis and Islamists/Islamo-fascists and NOI types, so you can't accuse me of being apprehensive.

Secondly, your apparently embedded feeling that all Zionists are genocidal hooligans is laughable.

You sure didn't post under your name. Any chance you're a fan of that racist creature known as Windy Wendy? You kind of sound like her.

Israel is an imperfectly democratic state, yet is pluralist and its system of ultra-fair proportional representation with a 2.5% threshold gives all citizens equal voting rights as well as other equal rights.

non-CT: "Look, you don't really know me, for starters. I don't disclose my name, but that has nothing to do with fear; fact is, I have been corresponding on occasion with some neo-Nazis and Islamists/Islamo-fascists and NOI types, so you can't accuse me of being apprehensive."

Yes s/he can!: s/he knows you're a **CHICKEN**!!!

(And none of you *other* Zionist *CHICKENS* ever come out to challenge Jewish or Palestinian anti-Zionist lecturers!)

Gerhig is apparently the only Zionist that uses his real name and he's really the only one worth debating with. He's far more intelligent than you, CT -- and that's not saying much for a Zionist to begin with!

E.g., yeah, putting a *European* Jewish-supremacist semi-theological state on semi-genocidally, ethnically-cleansed, confiscated land, in the middle of the Arab world, was really going to make a safe haven for "the Jews". Now, there's the height of *IDIOCY* right there!! Tell me, are Jews safer in New York, San Francisco, L.A., Montreal, Vancouver, Toronto, London, *Berlin*, etc., or Jerusalem!???

Israeli Jews weren't too safe in their Egyptian resorts, huh? -- in a dictatorially controlled country! But, I guess they did have Israel to go literallly running, scrambling, stumbling, and streaming back in to, right? But Mubarak is not going to let Israel go bomb some Egyptian city -- so, *sorrry*! Before Israel was 'appropriated', British and Washington diplomats who *OPPOSED* it -- including George Marshall of the Marshall Plan) -- *PREDICTED* exactly what would happen: "50 YEARS OF NOTHING BUT TROUBLE!" Only they *underestimated* the years!

And now Washington Zionist Jewish neocons have bamboozled this country into a war -- in large part for *Israel* -- that puts American occupation troops into the middle of the Middle East. Only the Iraqi resistance *shows* what Arabs with real (even if not equal) weapons will do to an occupation force -- not like Israel occupying and brutalizing a largely defenseless people. (I saw a Palestinian resistance fighter who said that Israeli Jews were *COWARDS* [just like Milstein said]: they only come out to fight when they have overwhelming numbers!) And this Iraq war, in significant part for Israel, will likely bring new horrible "terrorist" attacks against not only Israelis, but especially against American citizens.

Iraq doesn't have anything -- including oil -- that the U.S.can't easily get elsewhere. The U.S. govt knew that Saddam was not going to attack Texas -- was not a threat to anyone: no WMD's. So, those American soldiers are largely suffering, getting maimed, and dying at the beginning of their young adult (and often married) life for *ISRAEL*! -- and to fight *ISRAEL'S* war.


Now, regarding Israel being a pluralist, democratic state. First of all, a "pluralist" state doesn't ethnochauvinistically, semi-theocratically, politically, an ideologically define itself as "a Jewish state", no more than a pluralist state would define itself as "a white-Christian state" (like Nazi Germany or the KKK ideology). A truly democratic state cannot be based on an ethnic and theocratic ideology and self-definition. Second, Israel is -- at best -- "a 'democracy' of Jews", if one believes in *partial* democracies. Third, the U.S. was originally "a 'democracy' of white [propertied] men" and for most of its history the majority of its people could *NOT* even vote! Actually, the U.S. is more of a representative republic and not itself a true democracy. Apartheid South Africa called itself "a democracy"!!

Finally -- some "democracy" -- in Israel -- that 'great democracy' of the Middle East -- it is *ILLEGAL* for any political party to call for absolutely equal civil, national, and legal rights, regardless of race, ethnicity, or religion!!

Lesson: not every country that calls itself "a democracy" really is one. (North Korea and the former East Germany also called themselves "democacies".)


non-CT: "You sure didn't post under your name.[to Uh-Huh?]"

Once again, a reading comprehension-deficient Zionist Jew (who said all Jews were smart!?):

Uh-Huh?: "I think that it's very courageous of JA, and others, to stand up to you Zionists using their real names. I sure wouldn't expose myself to you crazies."

>>>"Gerhig is apparently the only Zionist that uses his real name and he's really the only one worth debating with."<<<

If so, bozo, why have you been spending time talking to me?

>>>"He[gehrig]'s far more intelligent than you, CT -- blah blah"<<<

Did you conduct comprehensive intelligence tests for both of us and proceed to compare our scores, idiot?

>>>"Blah blah blah blah blah.... Now, there's the height of *IDIOCY* right there!! Tell me, are Jews safer in New York, San Francisco, L.A., Montreal, Vancouver, Toronto, London, *Berlin*, etc., or Jerusalem!???"<<<

You're supposed to be talking about the safety level in all of Israel proper rather than just Jerusalem, honey. Nowadays, thanks to the security barrier you detest, it's about as safe in Israel proper as a whole as it is in most cities you mentioned. In Montreal, Berlin and London it's a bit less safe for Jews than in most of Israel proper.

>>>"Now, regarding Israel being a pluralist, democratic state. First of all, a "pluralist" state doesn't blah blah blah blah blah blah...
Finally -- some "democracy" -- in Israel -- that 'great democracy' of the Middle East -- it is *ILLEGAL* for any political party to call for absolutely equal civil, national, and legal rights, regardless of race, ethnicity, or religion!! Lesson: not every country that calls itself "a democracy" really is one. (North Korea and the former East Germany also called themselves "democacies".) <<<

I refuted this Tim Wise lie last year, parrot. The refutation stands, crybaby.

HEY!! NOW I KNOW WHAT 'CT' **REALLY** STANDS FOR!!


>>>"Gerhig is apparently the only Zionist that uses his real name and he's really the only one worth debating with."<<<

CHICKEN TENDERS!: "If so, bozo, why have you been spending time talking to me?"

PRIMARILY FOR MY ... LET'S SEE..., HOW DOES ONE SAY IT POLITELY IN FRENCH?...:

**AHH-MMMUZZZE-MMMAHHNT**!!

...HAHAHA!!

SOMETIMES I EVEN LAUGH AT YOU WHILE I'M TYPING!! -- LIKE JUST ABOVE!!

HAHAHA...!!

EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE YOU SAY SOMETHING WORTH REFUTING -- AS A DIDACTIC EXCERCISE FOR OTHERS.


>>>"He[gehrig]'s far more intelligent than you, CT -- blah blah"<<<

CHICKEN TENDERS!: Did you conduct comprehensive intelligence tests for both of us and proceed to compare our scores, idiot?

DON'T HAVE TO!: IT'S *OBVIOUS*!!

CHICKEN TENDERS!: "You're supposed to be talking about the safety level in all of Israel proper rather than just Jerusalem, honey."

"HONEY!!!" HEY, "SLIP OF THE LIPS"!!: I'VE *GOT* A *GIRLFRIEND*!! IT'S BAD ENOUGH THAT YOU GUYS(/GALS?) HAVE A HATE-LOVE JONES FOR BEV AND ANGIE, NOW YOU'RE GETTIN' A BIG CRUSH ON ME TOO!!

(I ALWAYS DISAGREED -- BECAUSE YOU'RE SUCH A *BIG* CHICKEN *ASSHOLE* -- BUT ANGIE SAID THAT YOU MIGHT BE FEMALE! OR MAYYYBEEE...)

ANYWAY, *I* DECIDE WHAT I'M *SUPPOSED* TO DO. I'M COMPARING CITIES, NOT COUNTRIES.

IF YOU WANT TO COMPARE COUNTRIES, THEN TELL ME THE LAST TIME WHEN 15 JEWS WERE KILLED, AND 100 WOUNDED, ON A BUS OR IN A MALL IN THE U.S., CANADA, BRITAIN, OR *GERMANY* BY "A SUICIDE/MARTYR BOMBER".

IF YOU WANT TO DO QUALITATIVE SLEIGHT OF HAND, THEN TELL ME THE LAST TIME A JEW WAS KILLED IN ALL OF CHINA! -- WHICH MUST BE A THOUSAND TIMES LARGER THAN ISRAEL WITH 200 TIMES THE POPULATION!


CHICKEN TENDERS!: "I refuted this Tim Wise lie last year, parrot. The refutation stands, crybaby."

OH, YEAH!!... : I'M 'SURRRE' !!!!

YOU, WITH YOUR PINHEAD CHICKEN BRAIN!!


(I didn't even know about the Wise (who *IS*) exposition. But it's very revealing that others can -- independently -- come up with the same exposition about ethno-exclusivist, semi-theocratic Israel's so-called 'democracy'. I bet that anti-Zionist Jew and a director/analyst of the Institute for Policy Studies in Washington, D.C., has come up with a similar exposition. She's written before about Israel's 4 or 5 tier system of racism. But, thank you for mistaking my words for Tim Wise ["Reflections on Zionism from a Dissident Jew"]): I'm highly *honored*!!)

I bet that anti-Zionist Jew and a director/analyst of the Institute for Policy Studies in Washington, D.C., has come up with a similar exposition. She's written before about Israel's 4 or 5 tier system of racism.

That anti-Zionist Jewish-American is PHYLLIS BENNIS! She's a senior fellow (and public lecturer) at the Insitutie for Policy Studies in The Middle East & United Nations Affairs area/department.

THIS THREAD ALMOST SCROLLED OFF THE MAIN COMMENTS PAGE!

Let's see how can I explain it politely.

Eres tonto del higo. No debes de tener abuela.

Yo gehrig, 'CT'!!: No rebuttal???

--JA