Hamas member assassinated in Syria

Hamas vows revenge after top militant killed in Damascus blast

DAMASCUS (AFP) - A founding member of Hamas was killed in a car bombing in the Syrian capital Damascus on Sunday in an attack blamed on Israel by the hardline Palestinian movement which vowed to wreak a bloody revenge.

In Gaza, the armed wing of Hamas threatened to strike Israeli targets abroad to avenge the killing of Ezzedine Sheikh Khalil, but a politburo member in Beirut denied the leadership had decided to "take the fight out of Palestine."

Israel has threatened to strike Hamas militants at home and abroad, including the Syrian capital where a number of the movement's senior officials are based, but officials in Jerusalem denied knowledge of the car bombing.

The attack came as Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon presented his cabinet with the final draft of his controversial Gaza pullout plan and vowed to intensify action to stop Hamas firing makeshift rockets from the territory.

Hamas blamed the killing of Khalil on Israel's Mossad spy agency, which famously botched an attempt to kill a Hamas leader in Amman in 1997.

A senior source close to Sharon said he had "no information about this (Damascus) incident" other than through media reports, while the Israeli army also denied knowledge of the strike.

But Hamas said it was clear who was behind the killing of Khalil, one of the group's founders who was among 400 militants expelled by Israel to Lebanon in 1992 during the last intifada.

"This ugly Zionist crime targetting leaders outside shows Israel is trying to export the crisis and to drag the whole region into the inferno," said Mushir al-Masri, a spokesman for Hamas in Gaza.

And in a statement in Gaza, Hamas's armed wing, the Ezzedine al-Qassam Brigades warned: "The Zionist enemy opened the door for the battle to move outside Palestine."

But Mohamad Nazzal, a Hamas politburo member in Beiurt, denied that the movement's leadership had decided to strike Israeli interests abroad.

"Until today, the issue of carrying the fight outside Palestine is under study and no decision has been taken in that direction," he told AFP.

Israel has carried out scores of what it calls "targeted killings" of militants since the outbreak of the latest intifada in September 2000.

In one of its biggest strikes, Israel earlier this month killed 15 members of Hamas' military wing shortly after a double suicide bombing in the southern city of Beersheva which left 16 Israelis dead, as well as the two Hamas bombers.

In the wake of the raid, Israel warned its campaign against Hamas would reach all the way to the movement's Syrian-based leadership.

And the Damascus-based Khaled Meshaal, who emerged as overall Hamas leader after Israel assassinated two other top figures earlier this year, is thought to be top of the list of Israel's targets.

Mossad made a failed attempt on the life of Meshaal, the Hamas politburo chief, in Amman in 1997.

The United States has also accused Damascus of backing what it calls Palestinian "terrorist groups" and earlier this year imposed sanctions of Syria, which denies the charge.

Palestinian negotiations minister Saeb Erakat condemned the blast.

"Taking the assassinations overseas means broadening the field of conflict," he told AFP. "We condemn this crime and repeat that violence can only bring about violence."

Israel claims that Hamas' strategic planning is now almost totally conducted in Damascus, although a handful of autonomous cells still exist in the West Bank and Gaza.

Israel has in the past shown itself more than willing to strike at targets in Syria, with the air force carrying out a raid on a Palestinian training base deep in Syrian territory last October, which it claimed was being used by Hamas.

Meanwhile, Sharon presented cabinet ministers with a draft bill outlining his so-called disengagement plan.

The 89-page document, which was also made available to the public on the justice ministry's website, outlines the principles of the plan, which envisages a full Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and from four other isolated enclaves in the West Bank by the end of 2005.

On September 14, members of the security cabinet approved a compensation package for Jewish settlers who will be uprooted from their homes. Sharon expects the full cabinet to vote on final version of the plan on October 24 before parliament has its say on November 3.

Sharon also vowed at the cabinet meeting vowed to step up the fight against militants in Gaza who fire mortar shells and Qassam rockets -- named after the Hamas military wing -- at Israeli targets.

In Gaza, over 80 Palestinian policemen who were due to attend security training sessions in Egypt in preparation for the withdrawal, were barred from leaving through the Rafah border crossing.

Israeli military sources said all border crossings had been halted since September 16 due to the Jewish holidays.

http://www.turkishpress.com/turkishpress/news.asp?ID=28621

Well, another one bites the dust. Brightened up my morning. As for Hamas threatening "revenge"...yawn.

bark bark bark bark bark bark bark
sniff sniff *tinkle*

the arabs are being slow to learn but learn they shall. when they order their followers to kill Jewish children they will evenually face justice.

Contrary to arab culture, killing Jewish children is not what a hero is.

Now there is one terrorist fewer. That guy could kill nobody any more.

The lion's share of the terrorist is committted by the IDF. Most of the children that have died in this conflict, they killed. Is an Arab child's life worth less than a Jewish child's? If not, where are your complaints when the victims are Arab?

State sponsored terrorism is every bit as much terrorism as is non state sponsored terrorism. Next to the US military, the IDF is the single most dangerous terrorist organization on the planet today.

Children loaded with eexplosives

From time to time, the Israeli Security Forces intercept Palestinian children and teenagers carrying explosives in exchange for a little money.

Number of Palestinian children detained for being involved in terrorist attacks or in plans to commit them:

2001....... 27 children
2002....... 54 "
2003.......102 "
2004.......109 "

The youngest one, 8 years old, was detained in Gaza in January 2003. He had a knife, and said he had planted explosives in the area, along with a friend of 13.

The last one, 15 years old, is from Yamun. He was detained just a few days ago in Afula after a charge of 7 kg explosives was found. He earned 1,000 skekels (185 euros) and a cell phone for him to receive orders.



It seems that for Palestinians a child is worth nothing, even if it is a Palestinian child.

when reuters gets brave they everyonce in a while reveal a photo taken by their stringers that show the arab activits shooting at the Jews then these brave arab gunmen run to surround themselves with arab children and then pose for the photographers showing their guns to the the kids.

Its time the brave heros of arab culture to stop hiding behind these children they claim to be serving.

I know it. And I have come to the conclusion that they want Palestinian children to be killed so they use it for propaganda.

They should be embarrassed to send their children to attack Israelis.

You are surprised at the Palis using their own children as weapons? Don't be. Go look at their school texts. Listen to their sermons. Their women are told to be proud that their children become "martyrs" to their lost cause. This is what happens when a culture degenerates and becomes psychotic, delusional, and utterly dysfunctional. These people won't be able to live around civiized people for a generation, at least.

I know that happens. However, it is amazing that people can be like that.

Dead children to date:

http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2004.html

(snip)


TOTALS SINCE SEPT 2000:

Israelis: 112

Palestinians: 613



TOTALS FOR 2004:

Israelis: 6

Palestinians: 113

(snip)

those festering yid slime have rightly brought the world's anger on themselves. I wish their casulties were 100 times as high.

Why do the editors here permit their bandwidth to be used to broadcast anti-Semitic propaganda? Have they no shame?

"those festering yid slime" sounds a little more "nazi" to me than the execution of the murderer of innocents.

Don't worry, with a little bit more time, the next 100 Hamas killers will be eliminated as well. And if you have the guts to put your money where your mouth is, perhaps you'll join them.

Nazis have now gone crazy because they don't like the truth is known.
Nazis,go to hell.

Zionists are nothing but Nazis in drag.

"Zionists are nothing but Nazis in drag."

LOL!!! Check out Syria's history!!! Hey, you might know...Is Alois Brunner still alive?

Zionists have been helping the Nazis for a very long time, and vice versa. There have even been documented cases of Zionists cought in the act of actually collecting *salaries* from the SS. Consider, for example, the curious case of Fieval Polkes, Hagganah commander, and Nazi employee. The year is 1936. Adolf Eichmann, who was at the time an obscure SS functionary specializing in intelligence on Freemasonry and Jewish affairs for the Nazi party, was working in Jerusalem . . .

See:

http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2002/04/120352_comment.php#120573

http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2002/05/127448_comment.php#127704

Oh, golly, is it already time for nessie to drag _that_ stuff out again? From the vantage point of perfect hindsight, in order to condemn a group of people trying to save Jewish lives against an antisemitic regime in the same way they later would do by cutting a deal with Couce?cu? Facing moral decisions of a life-and-death nature that comfortable nessie, from his comfortable, danger-free life in a Nazi-free world can feel free to look down his nose at, never having had to make anything close to the same kind of decision?

Now watch as nessie, in a characteristic burst of ego, tries to argue that he makes life-or-death decisions all the time.

@%<

Golly - I guess you're right, Zionists must be Nazis. I just can't help but wonder why I never heard how democratic Nazi Germany was, or how the Nazis allowed all races and creeds into their nation, or how they were more concerned with their internal security and kept trading land for promises of peace.

And I also wonder why, despite their best efforts, I don't see Reuters or AP reporting on Palestinian death camps.

So, are you sure that you're making an accurate comparison?

'Adolf Eichmann, who was at the time an obscure SS functionary specializing in intelligence on Freemasonry and Jewish affairs for the Nazi party, was working in Jerusalem'

Yeah...he was working with Yasser Arafat's uncle, hajj Amin Al Husseini...

'Adolf Eichmann, who was at the time an obscure SS functionary specializing in intelligence on Freemasonry and Jewish affairs for the Nazi party, was working in Jerusalem'

Yeah...he was working with Yasser Arafat's uncle, hajj Amin Al Husseini...

'Adolf Eichmann, who was at the time an obscure SS functionary specializing in intelligence on Freemasonry and Jewish affairs for the Nazi party, was working in Jerusalem'

Yeah...he was working with Yasser Arafat's uncle, hajj Amin Al Husseini...

'Adolf Eichmann, who was at the time an obscure SS functionary specializing in intelligence on Freemasonry and Jewish affairs for the Nazi party, was working in Jerusalem'

Yeah...he was working with Yasser Arafat's uncle, hajj Amin Al Husseini...

'Adolf Eichmann, who was at the time an obscure SS functionary specializing in intelligence on Freemasonry and Jewish affairs for the Nazi party, was working in Jerusalem'

Yeah...he was working with Yasser Arafat's uncle, hajj Amin Al Husseini...

'Adolf Eichmann, who was at the time an obscure SS functionary specializing in intelligence on Freemasonry and Jewish affairs for the Nazi party, was working in Jerusalem'

Yeah...he was working with Yasser Arafat's uncle, hajj Amin Al Husseini...

'Adolf Eichmann, who was at the time an obscure SS functionary specializing in intelligence on Freemasonry and Jewish affairs for the Nazi party, was working in Jerusalem'

Yeah...he was working with Yasser Arafat's uncle, hajj Amin Al Husseini...

'Adolf Eichmann, who was at the time an obscure SS functionary specializing in intelligence on Freemasonry and Jewish affairs for the Nazi party, was working in Jerusalem'

Yeah...he was working with Yasser Arafat's uncle, hajj Amin Al Husseini...

'Adolf Eichmann, who was at the time an obscure SS functionary specializing in intelligence on Freemasonry and Jewish affairs for the Nazi party, was working in Jerusalem'

Yeah...he was working with Yasser Arafat's uncle, hajj Amin Al Husseini...

'Adolf Eichmann, who was at the time an obscure SS functionary specializing in intelligence on Freemasonry and Jewish affairs for the Nazi party, was working in Jerusalem'

Yeah...he was working with Yasser Arafat's uncle, hajj Amin Al Husseini...

Ignore Gehrig’s prattle. Read the documents yourself. These Zionists were not trying to “save Jewish lives.” They were trying to recruit cannon fodder for their upcoming war against Britain. They were helping the Nazis because the Nazis were sending them cannon fodder. The Nazis were helping them because they, too, needed cannon fodder for their upcoming war against Britain. War makes strange bedfellows.

The lives of most German Jews were in no danger at the time. Remember, this was 1936. The Holocaust hadn’t gotten around to Jews yet. In 1936, it was still finishing off the disabled. Jews came later.

The Holocaust was not about killing Jews. The Holocaust was about killing a wide variety of people, of whom Jews were a minority. Though some people choose to remember it differently, the fact of the matter is that except for those in partisan militias, the Jews who died in the Holocaust stood in line to die, and not at the front of the line, either.

The Holocaust didn’t happen all at once, either. It was a process. It took time. To give yourself some idea of how far along that they managed to get in the process, consider this. They started officially killing people in 1933. Before acquiring state power, they had limited their killing to street brawls and several hundred strategic assassinations. With state power, they were able to employ legal methods. This created a vast mechanical meat grinder. The first people to be tossed into the hopper in mass were disabled. The Wannsee Conference, at which it was decided to throw Jews in the hopper next, took place In 1942. When the Red Army reached Berlin, in 1945, there were still Jews living there. If you were half Jewish and/or you were married to an Aryan, your number hadn’t come up yet. You had lived long enough to be conquered by Russians. Lucky you.

Hitler killed gypsies, Jews and others.

He killed about 6,000,000 Jews.

Were they a minority?

Were there more gypsies or people of any other kind killed?

>>>>Targeting Jewish children
by kelly Monday, Sep. 27, 2004 at 7:29 AM
the arabs are being slow to learn but learn they shall. when they order their followers to kill Jewish children they will evenually face justice.
Contrary to arab culture, killing Jewish children is not what a hero is.<<<<

This is false because, all you have to do is look at the numbers:

Since the Struggle for Palestinian Freedom began in Sept, 2000.

939 Israelis have died of which 112 were children...
3227 Palestinians have died of which 613 were children...

So who is targeting whose children?
For complete details

CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

We were talking about the Holocaust, and somebody said that Hitler didn't kill Jews. The discussion was about that.

Where, exactly, did "somebody" say that? Be specific.

In a post sent by nessie on September 28 at 5.35 pm.

Scroll up and see for yourself. I said "in 1936. They were not, however being killed."

This is *quite* a different think than saying, "Hitler didn't kill Jews."

This is also the truth of the matter. A few individual Jews were being killed in 1936, but for the most part it was not because they were Jewish, but because they were disabled, communists, or labor leaders. Jews *as a group* did not begin to to be killed until much later.

See:

http://sfbay.indymedia.org/news/2004/09/1696541_comment.php#1696824

>One thing is to be killed in the front, and a very different thing is to be sent to a gas chamber.

(1.) No, it isn’t. Either way, you’re dead. Either way, Nazis killed you. To claim otherwise is to deny that the Warsaw Ghetto fighter, among others, did not die in the Holocaust.

(2.) Not all the victims on the Eastern Front died fighting. Many, many were slaughtered in cold blood behind the German lines. Some were Jews. More were not. They're just as dead as the dead Jews. To assign more value to the lives of the Jews who died than to the lives of the non Jews who died, is racist. Those who do it, spit on twenty million graves.

A corpse is a corpse is a corpse. Who its mother was doesn't matter. It's still a corpse.

' Jews *as a group* did not begin to to be killed until much later.'

Thanks Adolph, that's comforting...

What Hitler did was a monstruosity. He carried out the plan of killing Jews just because they were Jews. And the plan consisted of killing them by using industrial methods, as in factories.

Scroll up and see for yourself.

What I actually said was, " . . . in 1936. They were not, however being killed."

This is *quite* a different think than saying, "Hitler didn't kill Jews."

This is also the truth of the matter. A few individual Jews were being killed in 1936, but for the most part it was not because they were Jewish, but because they were disabled, communists, or labor leaders. Jews did not begin to to be killed *as a group* until much later. Kristalnacht hadn’t even happened yet, let alone Wannsee.

See:

http://sfbay.indymedia.org/news/2004/09/1696541_comment.php#1696824

Don’t let the Zionists rewrite history. What happened, happened when it happened.



>One thing is to be killed in the front, and a very different thing is to be sent to a gas chamber.

(1.) No, it isn’t. Either way, you’re dead. Either way, Nazis killed you. To claim otherwise is to deny that the Warsaw Ghetto fighter, among others, did not die in the Holocaust. Is that what you’re trying to say here, that a partisan shot down in the streets of the Warsaw Ghetto didn’t die in the Holocaust? Is that what you’re saying? Come on, out with it. Be specific. In your opinion, did or did not a partisan shot down in the streets of the Warsaw Ghetto die in the Holocaust?

Just wondering.

(2.) Not all the victims who were killed in the East died died fighting. Many, many were slaughtered in cold blood behind the German lines. Some were Jews, some were not.

Don’t let the Zionists rewrite history.

beware those who would exclude some points of view from the process... let alone some peoples.

of learning the truth, are lies and liars.

Either we learn from the past, or we are condemned to repeat it. We can't learn from the past without knowing what it was. As Orwell so astutely pointed out, he who controls the past controls the present, he who controls the present controls the future.

Don't let Zionists rewrite history.

and sometimes truth is subjective. wrap your head around that one, if it's not already too full of prejudice...

It's no coincidence that the people here who claim to be "anti-zionist" and hate israel in insanely rabid fashion are the same people who try to minimize in very careful language every aspect of the holocaust against the jews

99% of teh loudest anti-israel maniacs, once you get to know them, turn out to actually be anti-semites. Though the smarter ones have learned to use language that might fool people into thinking they're "peace" activists.

It's a shame how the Left is being hijacked by jew-hating scum.

...are the Palestinians? or do they count as the former?

Is Palestinian subjective truth legitimate or not?

The people in the Warsaw Gheto started fighting after many others had been "deported".

Anyone who knows anything about Nazi Germany, knows that Hitler was a monster who was responsible for the death of way to many Jewish people, the Majority of then good decent people who should not have died.

But unlike World War II Hitler was found out and the problem was solved. His atrocities lasted about ten years.

The land confiscation, home demolitions, destruction of olive and fruit trees and other atrocities that are occurring in the West Bank and Gaza, which then go on to provoke the residence of the West Bank and Gaza to try to fight for their land and freedom has been going on for over thirty, although we are at the point where very many people and Government know of the Israeli intentions and atrocities we have not yet gone in and saved these Palestinian People.

Saving these People from the Brutal Occupation and Oppression would do more to put a giant dent in Terrorism. The U.S. says freedom for all. A few days ago G.W. Bush made a statement “Muslims yearn to be free”, but until we end the double standard and hypocrisy, it will be difficult to regain the respect of the Muslim population, there by greatly reducing new recruits into so called terrorism.

There are some people who say there was never a Palestine, but recently I read:

In 1939 (before there was the State of Israel) A Jewish Organization in Berlin was trying to get entry VISA’s for some Jewish People wanting to get out of Nazi Germany into “PALESTINE”

How can you get an entry visa into Palestine if some say there was never a Palestine?

>it is NOT an ad hominem attack when it is factual

This is false. An ad hominem attack is an attack on the person presenting an argument, instead on of the argument itself. Whether it’s true or not is irrelevant. Either way, it’s an attempt to change the subject.

Really, look it up for yourself:

http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/attack.htm



>sometimes truth is subjective

Truth, by definition, is *never* subjective. Opinions are irrelevant. Only the empirical data count. What happened, happened. It happened when it happened. What did not happen, did not happen. What happened can be distinguished from what did not happen *only* from an objective analysis of the empirical data. Period. There is no other definition of truth. Truth is what the empirical data demonstrates is the truth. Anything else is opinion.



>The people in the Warsaw Gheto started fighting after many others had been "deported".

(1.) That wasn’t the question. The question was, did partisans who died fighting in the Warsaw Ghetto die in the Holocaust or not. Answer the damn question. Yes or no?

(2.) The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising happened seven years after the Polkes/von Bolschwing affair. In 1943, Nazis were definitely killing Jews, as a group, and in a systematic fashion. I never said otherwise. However, in 1936, when the Haganah and the Schutstaffel were working hand in glove against the British in Palestine, this was not the case. Polkes was not saving Jewish lives. He was recruiting cannon fodder. The Nazis were helping, not only because it was to their advantage, but because Nazis and Zionists are birds of a feather. They work together well because they have so much in common.



>are the same people who try to minimize in very careful language every aspect of the holocaust against the jews

This is more bunk logic. Specifically, it is called “begging the question”. Don’t fall for it. The Holocaust was not “against the Jews.” The Holocaust was against a variety of people. A minority of them were Jews. The majority of them were not. The truth of this can be determined by a simple head count. The Nazis killed twenty to thirty million people, at the very least. Six million were Jews. Do the math. Even if we limit the definition of “the Holocaust” to those who died in the camps, Jews were still a minority. Thirteen million people died in the camps. Six million were Jews. Do the math.

Anyone who considers the murder of six million Jews to be “the Holocaust” and the murder of seven to thirty million non Jews to not be “the Holocaust,” is a racist. Zionists would have you believe that the Holocaust, WWII, and most of history is about Jews. Why? In part, it is because it fits their agenda that the rest of us believe such patent nonsense. In part, it is because they genuinely believe it themselves. To the Zionists, everything is about Jews. In this, they are *exactly* like Nazis, for whom everything was about Aryans.

A racist is a racist is a racist. Which race is irrelevant. A Jewish racist is just as much a racist as is an Aryan racist. There is no difference. Calling me a racist for pointing this out, changes that not one iota. It’s not even true. It’s what psychologists call “projection.” Zionism is a form of collective psychopathology. Projection is by no means the worst of its symptoms.

Calling me a liar doesn’t make me a liar, either. Disproving what I have said by presenting evidence to the contrary might, but that hasn’t happened. What has happened is what always happens when Zionists are confronted by embarrassing facts. They try to change the subject, by calling people names, by answering questions that haven’t been asked, by begging questions and by projecting their own sick, twisted world view on to the people around them. They always do this, every single day. If you have any doubts, use this site’s search engine, and read for yourself. A day does not go by that Zionists do not call people names and try to change the subject when called on their lies and their racism.

That this guy’s grandparents “fled the horror” in no way whatsoever negates the fact the Holocaust went on for years before it turned its attention to Jews. Neither does it negate the fact of Nazi/Zionist collaboration years before the mass murder of Jews began in Germany, let alone in Occupied Europe. The fact is that in 1936, in Jerusalem, Zionists and Nazis left a clear paper trail of their collaboration. The fact is that paper trail has survived. The fact is, Zionists don’t want you to know this. They can’t disprove it because the evidence is unimpeachable. So they resort to bunk logic, name calling and changing the subject.

Why? Because the fact is, truth scares them. Their entire position is a lie based on other lies, propped up by more lies and covered up with yet more lies still. Facts are not the Zionists friends. People who learn the facts, reject Zionists for the thieves, liars, murderers and ethnic cleansers that they are. It is not all that difficult to learn the facts for yourself. There is, after all, a clear paper trail, much forensic evidence and a great many witnesses.

The fact is that no one on earth has a birth right to lie, steal and kill. The fact is that no one has a birth right to rule over others, on any piece of land, anywhere. Jews don’t. Aryans don’t. Nobody does.

The fact is that, despite copious propaganda to the contrary, Jews are just another ethnic group, one of thousands, no more, not less. They are not special. They are not entitled to special, treatment. No ethnic group is. The world does not revolve around Jews any more than it revolves around Aryans, Arabs, Albanians, Armenians, Acholi, Alur, or Aimak. The world does not revolve around any single ethnic group. Anybody who tells you otherwise is a racist.

He’s also a liar. Zionists are inveterate liars. They can’t help it. They have no choice in the matter. They *have* to lie, because there is no honest defense of ethnic cleansing. Zionism is ethnic cleansing. That’s what Zionism is. The distribution of land and rights to people according to what ethnicity they happen to be, is racist by definition. To do it by force, is a war crime. Zionists are war criminals. Israel is their crime. They can’t get away with it forever. The world wont let them.

it smells like angel spam here

Dear Mr. Nessie,

We at Al-Jazeera are always looking for highly qualified candidates with a clear eye, a steady pen, and the right attitudes. You are our kind of people. Welcome aboard!

Ayman al-Zawahiri, Managing Editor, Al-Jazeera

Whilst scanning this discussion board tonight my attention was grabbed by the post entitled "lie after lie after lie" submitted by "and more lies, still" on Friday, Oct. 01, 2004 at 12:25 AM

I paused to read same with enthusiasm, applauding the author's informed and factual grasp of the issues under discussion.

Sadly there are those who continuously try to convince us that WWII was solely about the jewish people whilst deliberately ignoring the real truth, that there were some 55,000,000 plus killed in this tragic tragic horror, and at the risk of being taken out and shot at dawn, it is inperative to remember that each and every one of them are equally important. Whether he/she died in concentration camps around the world, on a beach in the Pacific, or in a trench in France, every single person who died in World War II is a human being, and no one, NO ONE, is more important than anyone else, and we must never ever cease pointing out this very real fact.

>>>"What has happened is what always happens when Zionists are confronted by embarrassing facts. They try to change the subject, by calling people names, by answering questions that haven’t been asked, by begging questions and by projecting their own sick, twisted world view on to the people around them".

And isn't that the truth! We've seen it over and over and over. God above knows I speak from personal experience, having been the subject of such attacks, even to the point of dragging my family into the mix. It hasn't caused me to creep off diiscussion boards in fear and trembling, so to speak, nor will it.

>>>"Why? Because the fact is, truth scares them. Their entire position is a lie based on other lies, propped up by more lies and covered up with yet more lies still. Facts are not the Zionists friends"..

No one does it better! Zionists have taken lying and turned it into an art form. It has served them well, but blessedly those days are disappearing fast as people the world over realize they've been duped. More and more voices are rising up in unision to drown out the lies and propaganda, and it's only a matter of time before the truth prevails entirely. No wonder they're running scared!

>>>"Jews are just another ethnic group, one of thousands, no more, not less. They are not special. They are not entitled to special, treatment. No ethnic group is. The world does not revolve around Jews any more than it revolves around Aryans, Arabs, Albanians, Armenians, Acholi, Alur, or Aimak. The world does not revolve around any single ethnic group. Anybody who tells you otherwise is a racist".

I've been saying this forever. Unfortunately, however, the masses have been fed the propaganda that the world owes jewish people, that they are more important than anyone else, etc. And hiding behind this fallacy, Israel has been able to go forth and carry out its murderous campaign in the Palestinian Territories and lie through its teeth about it, continue to whine "poor us", and blather on about "security". It's becoming more and more difficult for Israeli spokespeople to keep a straight face on television news reports.

>>>"Zionists are war criminals. Israel is their crime. They can’t get away with it forever. The world wont let them".

True enough. It is crucial that the world step in and deal with this conflict everlasting decisively and for all time. Far too many innocent people have been murdered for the sake of the Greater Israel dream, far too many people have become the walking wounded. And for what? When will it stop? When the last Palestinian is removed from planet earth?

This is truly an exceptional post, and I applaud the author for telling it like it is in the concise, well informed, factual manner I've come to expect from him. Bravo!

>>>"". . . "truth, by definition, is "never" subjective"
by Angie Saturday, Oct. 02, 2004 at 9:38 AM" is a daring attempt at forgery, but I did not write it nor post it.

Angie did write that. Once again the Zionists are trying to decieve you. "By way of deception," the Mossad motto reads, "shalt though wage war."

I don't know what the person above is up to, but he hasn't a green idea as to what I have supposedly written and what I haven't. I haven't posted anything to this thread except to deny forgeries. The dastard person who posted the monstrous spiel above is obviously forging me. That's it! I suggest the daft person right above pack a lunch because he lost it, if he ever had it.

why does nessie continue to trumpet the glories of the old site? Nessie seems very busy over here- things aren't going to well in your own playpen I guess. Better to be a big fish in a small pond, but not if you're the only fish. RIP sf.indy

If readers out there do not, or cannot, recognize my writing, my viewpoints (God knows I've stated them often enough), then, please, don't ever assume to think that you know what is forged and what is not.

This is, indeed, my first "real" post to this site other than, of course, dropping in occasionally to deny forgeries.

I wrote it because I appreciate reading material that is factual, informative, well written. This post by Nessie was all of this and more.

>>>"Well, here we go again!
by Angie Saturday, Oct. 02, 2004 at 11:16 AM"

I did not write this post. It's another forgery.

>>>""The above is a nessie forger"
by nessie Saturday, Oct. 02, 2004 at 11:23 AM"

nessie didn't post this lousy comment. Once again the forger struck.

i think you two are going to need counseling. There is a whole world out there and you 2 (3?) sit there obsessing over each other. Go out and walk your straw dogs.

If you can't even believe them about this, how can you believe them about anything?

any race will do. really. you can hate anyone. it's an open market.

Why are you so busy over here? Too much time on your hands?

Count on nessie to pull any rhetorical trick he can in order to diminish the historical importance of Holocaust, or the centrality of the genocidal program against the Jews. That he wants you to consider the Soviet war dead as victims of the Holocaust really only means that he's once again playing his definition games, and hoping nobody notices.

Well, we noticed. No, nessie, the Holocaust was not every military campaign the Nazis ever did. Stop playing word games.

And his oft-spammed oft-spammed oft-spammed oft-spammed stuff about the Zionists being "allies" of the Nazis just simply fails the historical test, given the far deeper, far more documented, far more sinister alliegance between the Nazis and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, to whom the Nazis promised in writing to wipe out the "Jewish National Home."

Now compare that with a deal in which the Zionists paid the Nazis -- just as they later paid Coucescu in a similar arrangement -- to let Jews emigrate from Nazi Germany who would otherwise not have been able to.

Then sit back and marvel at the smug arrogance with which nessie, safe and sound in San Francisco more than a half century later, will obsessively attack the Zionist for having made a decision far, far more difficult than any nessie has ever had to face in his 55 years, and will try to tell you that the Zionists who chose to save lives by negotiating with the enemy are somehow as evil as the Nazis they negotiated with.

It's also characteristic of nessie to chose to use the word "allied" to describe the negotiation, hoping that at least _some_ readers will be led to believe that there was an actual military alliance of the sort the Nazis had with various Arab countries. But that's the kind of guy nessie is; truth means nothing to him, compared to a good anti-Zionist lie.

@%<

and not the unpleasant facts that I stated. They hope to distract you from some things they don't want you to think about, but can't refute because they are true. This might even work, if you were really, really, stupid, and there wasn't that pesky paper trail. But, oh well.

I suppose those partisans in the Warsaw ghetto died as a consequence of the Holocaust. The reason for their resistence was that the nazis were "deporting" Jews from the ghetto.

And if what you want is to make accounts, I cannot undertand the difference between 6 million people killed in the Holocaust, 6,020,000 and 5,980,000.

Nicely done, nessie!

The difference between Zionist racism, their apologists, those as yet too ignorant to converse rationally, and those who would demonstrate the need for careful analysis and action concerning the Zionist agenda is plain to see.

Truer words were never spoken:

The life of a Jew is worth not one jot more or less than the life of a Muslim, a Christian, an Atheist, a Buddhist, a Slav, a German, or any other human, by any colloquial definition.

It is the lives of humans that were at stake during the holocaust of WWII. There is no basis for differentiation between peoples merely due to their own transient, subjective choices of institutionalized "religion", that empty hearted bastion of systemized patriarchical inequality .

I didn´t say spirituality, I said religion.

The racists do our work for us. It is comforting that due to their positions being based on nothing more than a false and racist agenda, they cannot do other than fail. Again.

Thanks again, nessie. I appreciate your grasp of the English language, as well as the cognitive, deductive rationale behind your words.

This is ahistorical nonsense. Getting rid of Jews was part of Hitler’s plan. It wasn’t the main part. It was a sideshow. Only racists think otherwise. The main part was getting rid the Slavs, seizing the USSR, and colonizing it with Germans. That is project to which the overwhelming majority of the Nazis planning and resources was devoted. What the Nazis did to Jews was a crime. It was even a great crime. But it paled next to what they did to Slavs.

wow, what planet *are* you from?

i don't suppose you ever complain about, say, stalinist treachery against anarchists in the spanish civil war. because it makes no difference when people like you are targeted...

That's not what I said. Stop putting words into my mouth. It's rude. It's dishonest. It's very bad form.

what's up with that? talk about rude, bad form, you oughta know.

it would be more believable if you weren't so touchy about anarchists getting targeted...

What I actually said was ahistorical nonsense was the statement, "Hitler had a plan to get rid of Jews, which didn't happen with the other people"

Really. Scroll back up and read for yourself.

It most certainly did "happen with the other people." It happened to a lot of other people. In the case of Slavs, it happened to twenty to thirty million of them.

they were in the way. he wasnt out to get them. don't you know the difference? like the native americans, they were in the way. but america was out to get blacks.

duh.

...that wasn't 20 million slavs, that was 20 million Stalinists, proud and brave.

Thank you very much for remembering it. Kinda puts Kronstadt in perspective, now dunnit?

If you want to talk about Kronstadt, start a thread about Kronstadt. To talk about it here is disruptive. Why do you keep changing the subject? Could it be because you don't want our readers to think about the truth of the Zionist line on the Holocaust? They are clearly lying. They were caught in the act. The math alone bears that out. They were also caught in the act of collaborating with Nazis, years before the Holucaust even began to consume Jews. What else have they done that you would like to distract our attention from?

it smells just like jew hating bullshit.

i think nessie's trying to force this site into censoring him, to regain his moral equivalency, which has been so badly undermined by local comparison.

now quick, nessie, change that subject.

change it back to how bad you hate the jews at 4:21 a.m. (hey, i thought you were early to bed? another little white lie, hmm?)

that you call soviet citizens "slavs," as if the USSR weren't a human triumph of multiracial, multicultural cooperation. the commies, god bless them, put "russia" exactly nowhere in the name of the country.

but they must be "slavs" so you can pile them up against the jewish corpses of the camps, to diminish that particular atrocity, as a way to undermine the jewish state.

jew hating bullshit. i am exactly on topic. you are rotten with the racism you claim to resist. in fact, it explains your persistence ad nauseum quite neatly.

In this, Jews were not alone. Hitler's minions had been exterminating other people for nine years before they even got around to Jews. Sefarad is so blinded by racism that he thinks his own tribe is at the center of everything. it's not. It's just another tribe. It's not any more special than any other tribe. It certainly wasn't what WWII was all about. It wasn't even what the Holocaust was all about. Even if one restricts the definition of the Holocaust to those deaths that occurred in the camps, Jews were *still* a minority. By attempting to hijack the fate the dead to promote a racist agenda in Palestine, the Zionists spit on at least six million graves, thirteen million if you count the rest of the camp dead, twenty to thirty million if you count those who were murdered outside the camps.

this is exactly the kind of rewriting of history that is so dangerous.

it is a Jew hating lie. it's like arguing that American genocide of natives wasn't a policy because it happened to some Mexicans and some Africans too.

hooray for sfbay for not censoring it, though. nessie's moral corruption is no secret, and this kind of little expose is why.

Are you amazed at me being racist? According to you, this is so for every Jew.

Not like Hitler. As you also state he didn't make difference between Jews and non-Jews, he killed every kind of people, without discrimination. Is that what makes you like him?

You were making the Holocaust less important because Hitler killed other people too. And you keep on saying that zionists and people defending Israel are racist.

Oops, you blew it again. I had no doubt you weren´t able to carry on a rational conversation, and as usual you demonstrate the futility of your and others pointless diatribe towards "nessie" who actually is the only member of this thread who seems able to use cognitive and deductive ability.

As for the rest of you, like I keep telling you the only result of your ignorance is our amusement. It is individuals such as yourselves, long on voice and short on reason, who will ultimately be the undoing of the politically constructed entity known as "Israel".


Slavs are NOT "Soviets". Try to read with comprehension before you allow your alligator mouth to bite off more than your canary ass can handle next time.

As for the other attempt at wit claiming that they weren´t even "Slavs" or "Soviets" but rather "Stalinists", you apparently haven´t tried History 101 yet, have you?

I personally hope that imc indybay.org NEVER takes your diatribes off the boards because they are so helpful in demonstrating the difference between say a "nessie", or a "Norman Solomon", or a "JA" and the openly ignorant racist.

Thanks for being such a help to the cause of equal rights and justice for ALL Palestinian Semites!

By the way nessie, your rejection of the "ahistorical..." statement is clearly and easily understood by those able to comprehend English and use a language honestly. Irregardless of whatever personal faults or foibles you may or may not have, which is entirely irrelevant to the topic thread.

But then, we already knew that didn´t we?

The argument wasn't that "Slavs" were "Soviets," but rather that what is getting called "Russia" and reduced to Slavic ethnicity was, in fact, the Soviet system, which was multiethnic (and Stalinist, by the way).

The distortion is necessary to your side's argument that the Holocaust wasn't specifically designed to target Jews, a strategy by which to strike at an important, underpinning rationale for the existence of the state of Israel. Everything must be reduced to ethnicity. That's an important part of why your logic is mere cover for racist bullshit, in this specific instance of the Jew hating variety. The way the Soviets are being portrayed is proof.

As for the subversive corrosions, your pompous horseshit will do more to set back the Palestinian cause than just about anything else. Palestine, frankly, can't afford a lot of "friends" like you at the moment. Too bad for the Palestinian cause thay the American left is rotten with such "friends."

Not least of all becuase of your chronic ethnic reductionism, trying to flatten out complicated situations so that you can maintain this little lie of Zionoviet domination, which must be countered by an Iron Curtain, so clearly consists of... well.... of Jew Hating Bullshit.

But you're ever so logical about it. Yeah, woo-hoo. You go. Haven't seen that shtick before.

Nessie!

How COULD you be so insensitive! Of course there are good zionists, as well as humanitarian nazis! (They must be the ones that perpetrate genocide without using ovens, according to one of your less than astute detractors!)

You must not lump all those apartheid supporting racists together the way you do!

Learn to differentiate between "good" zionists and nazis, won´t you?

Just too much fun for words.

Struggle on, struggle on, Stupids, nothing YOU ever say will ever change the inalienable facts of Israeli regime racism and apartheid, not to mention the facts of their crimes against humanity, crimes of theft, demolition, rape, and murder of the innocent for a cause that will ultimately cause undue suffering to ALL peoples in the Middle and Near East and most certainly is not "Jewish" by any definition.

Thanks for being there, nessie. By the way, what kind of drag are you into? Got my ... curiosity ... up. Just kidding, just kidding, slap me down, whatever!

"...the inalienable facts of Israeli regime racism and apartheid..." blah blah blah....

no wonder the US left is a laughingstock. really, it's a cryin' shame...

The whole US is a laughingstock.

After the Iraq war, 9/11is a joke
American world supremecy wont last for more than a few decades
Nobody respects you anymore

Why are you so obssessed with racism? I am never thinking of it. I have friends of several colors and ethnias, which pose me no problem. I am never thinking if this thing or the other means being racist. There is no room in my mind for those stupid problems.

I recommend you try and deal with different kind of people, so you can test what you are like.