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Wendy Campbell: Discovering Syria for Myself
If you want an eye-opening trip to a beautiful country, consider a trip to Syria.
DISCOVERING SYRIA FOR MYSELF (and FYI, the Zionists Are Already Re-Building the Third Temple Offsite and Plan to Destroy the Al Aqsa Mosque)
I just got back from a fabulous trip to Syria, truly a hidden treasure full of fascinating historical sites going back thousands of years and a delightful place with incredibly friendly and hospitable people, even after finding out that I am an American.
SYRIA IS MISREPRESENTED BY ZIONIST-DOMINATED US MEDIA
You might be surprised to hear that Syria is an intriguing and top-notch destination, even for Americans. But think about it. Who has been telling you that Syria is full of terrorists? Of course, it's the Zionist-dominated American media. The very same media that has been embedded as part of our Zionist-dominated war-mongering government. The very same media that has been beating the drums for war against all the countries that Zionists would like to see the US invade and "democratize". The very same media that when being "risque" may even try to blame the war on "oil". The very same media that goes out of its way to avoid the word "Zionism" or explaining Israel's apartheid regime, or Israel's on-going history of ethnic-cleansing against non-Jewish indigenous Palestinians in Palestine-Israel. The very same media that tries to deny that the war on Iraq has been a war fought on only Israel's behalf.
Yes, THAT U.S. media. That Department of Misinformation.
So, no wonder that I, for one, was not surprised to find out that Syria is actually a friendly, beautiful and fascinating place to visit.
INCREDIBLY FRIENDLY SYRIAN PEOPLE
However, I must say, that I was surprised at how incredibly friendly the Syrian people were. We went in with a small group tour, all Christians (mostly Christian Scientists, and a couple Roman Catholics), and one agnostic.
Everywhere we went, even just walking down the street, many of the Syrian people called out "Hello" and "Welcome!" to us, even after they found out we were American, which we were more than a little ashamed to admit since we are all anti-war and detest Bush's policies. We were welcomed into many Syrians' homes for "flower tea" or Syrian or Turkish coffee, into upscale homes, modest city apartments and Bedouin beehive-shaped adobe mud homes sitting on carpets way out in the countryside.
SYRIANS KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JUDAISM AND ZIONISM
By the way, our tour guide, a Greek Orthodox Christian, said on several occasions to our group that Syrians are not against Jews and Judaism but they are against Zionism, (as well as American “crusaders”). Syrians all know what Zionism is, but Zionist Jews in this country have not gone out of their way to explain to non-Jewish Americans exactly what Zionism is. The typical explanation a Zionist Jew will give to explain to a non-Jew when asked about Zionism is to claim that Zionism is the belief that Jews must have a homeland in Israel, formerly known as Palestine, and that Jews must have self-sovereignty in a Jewish state. They never include the fact that in order for Jews to have a Jewish state, it has always been and continues to be at the expense of the indigenous non-Jewish Palestinian people. Zionists typically put a veil on the ugly way in which Israel was created and Israel’s on-going ethnic cleansing campaign against the indigenous, non-Jewish Palestinian people who are being persecuted and denied equal rights in their own ancestral homeland.
The ethnocentric Jewish state of Israel is also maintained at the expense of the American people with the billions of our tax dollars which our government funnels to Israel every year unconditionally and virtually on demand. On top of that, our government’s political and economic support of the apartheid state of Israel has created anti-American sentiment worldwide and sacrifices our credibility as a democratic, just country. Palestinians continue to pay the ultimate price for racist Israel with their lives and property, but now Americans are paying not only with their tax dollars and our country’s reputation, but also with American blood in fighting wars on behalf of Israel, such as the war on Iraq.
Fortunately not all Jews are Zionists and not all Jews try to hide the truth about Zionism and Zionist Israel. An excellent primer entitled “Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict” written by Jews For Justice in the Middle East can be found at the website http://www.cactus48.com. For information about how some Jews believe Zionism to be the exact opposite of Judaism, read about the Neturei Karta, a worldwide organization of Ultra Orthodox Jews, at http://www.nkusa.org or order my documentary entitled “Neturei Karta: Jews Against Zionism” via my website at http://www.exposingisraeliapartheid.com.
SYRIAN WOMEN HAVE FREEDOM OF CHOICE
Contrary to what Zionists' would have Americans believe, Syrian women are free to wear whatever they want. In any given street scene or restaurant, the spectrum of clothing that women in Syria wear ranges from Brittany Spears' style skin-tight jeans and teeshirts (but no belly showing) to professional Western-style suits, to wearing a hejab (head covering) and sometimes a traditional robe to being entirely covered in flowing black, face included (mostly from Iran, I was told). There were no Afghan-style burqas to be found, even in a store, which we had wanted to bring back for a Halloween outfit.
SYRIAN MEN ARE MODERN IN THEIR OUTLOOK TOWARDS WOMEN
Contrary to what Zionists would have you believe about the Muslim men oppressing their women, we found Muslim men to be very charming, natural and relaxed and even deferential to women. As a woman I felt completely comfortable in communicating with the Syrian men I met. In fact, at one point, my fiance decided to stay with the tour in the museum, and I decided to split to explore the nearby shops on my own. We were in Aleppo, the oldest continuously inhabited city in the entire world. I went into a shop that sold some hookah pipes to photograph them, and a small gathering of men inside the shop kindly invited me to join them in smoking the "hubbly-bubbly" as it is called. I was sincere when I said I would like to but didn't have time. They were most gracious.
HUBBLY-BUBBLY
By the way, the "hubbly-bubbly" is a recent popular craze at all the Syrian restaurants and cafes. It is just flavored tobacco with apple being the current Syrian favorite, but it is available in other flavors such as mint, cappuccino and more. I tried it twice later, and can attest to the fact that it is very mild tobacco. I did not even get a nicotine buzz! It's just a fun thing to do. It made me think of the hookah-smoking caterpillar in “Alice in Wonderland”. Both men and women smoke it with languid relish. It certainly adds to the exotic mystique of Syrian ambiance.
SYRIAN PRESIDENT IS MUCH-ADMIRED BY SYRIAN PEOPLE
Another common myth that the Zionist-dominated media puts forth is that the Syrian President Assad is some kind of malevolent dictator. We found that both Assad Jr., and his father are very popular with most Syrians. Many of the homes we visited, including a Kurdish Bedouin adobe beehive-shaped home, had a poster of him prominently displayed on their living room wall. I asked our guide if this was mandatory in Syria, and he replied that it was not and pointed out how he hadn’t put up a poster of Assad in his living room where we had all enjoyed some flower tea and Turkish coffee early in the trip. Not only were the posters of Assad in most public buildings, including a private Christian school, and restaurants, many Syrians even had a decal of him on their cars! A Syrian businesswoman who joined us for dinner in Damascus one night spoke very warmly and approvingly of Assad, and she seemed quite sincere. Syrians think their president is doing a great job. This is certainly something Bush cannot boast of! I don’t know anyone who has a poster of him anywhere in the USA unless it’s making fun of him!
JEWS ARE TREATED WITH RESPECT IN SYRIA
Yet another common myth is that Jews were chased out of Syria, and that any Jews who remain in Syria are discriminated against. It should come as no real surprise in this age of Orwellian “news” that quite the opposite is true. First of all, many Jews left Syria voluntarily to be in Israel, which as you know, gives favored status to Jews. The Jews who have chosen to stay in Syria are among the wealthiest of Syrian society. On top of that, the Syrian government goes out of its way to make sure that Jews are not discriminated against there, and in fact, apparently Jews get preferential treatment in many cases. Just for an example, Jews may get governmental documents speedier than non-Jews in Syria precisely to avoid any charges of discrimination, we were told. We personally met a Jewish man who was managing his antiques shop in Damascus, where he had non-Jewish shop-owners as neighbors. They all seemed to get along together quite well. Once again, another Zionist myth shattered.
SYRIAN CARS VS. TAXIS
One interesting fact about Syria is that cars are prohibitively expensive there, with huge taxes being imposed on them, sometimes three times as much as the original price of the car! Therefore, Syria is simply awash in taxi-cabs! It’s very cheap to take taxis in Syria, fortunately, and they also have community taxis for those on a very tight budget.
HISTORIAL TREASURES ABOUND IN SYRIA
For people interested in the history of humankind and archeology, Syria is an absolute treasure trove. One can only surmise that the reason Americans don’t know about this superlative destination is because of the Zionist-dominated US media, which is loathe to promote enemies of Israel. Syria is a world-class destination because its historical treasures excel those found in Italy or Greece, not only in terms of scale, variety and excellent preservation, but also, happily, because of the lack of hordes of swarming tourists as those found at the ruins in Greece and Italy, allowing for not only greater enjoyment but also for superlative photo opportunities.
We were impressed beyond our expectations with the incredible beauty of places like Palmyra, the exquisitely sculpted golden-colored stone ruins of a Nabatean, then Roman, city which spreads out for miles; Apamea, the site of ancient chariot-grooved Roman roads lined with majestic columns amidst colorful flowers and herds of goats and surrounded with hilltop villages; the Craq des Chevaliers, the spectacular Crusader castle like something right of a lavish epic movie; the impressive gated fortress of the Citadel surrounded by a now dry moat in Aleppo; the splendorous Omyyad Mosque in Damascus where all women have to don robes with hoods in order to enter; the ancient Christian church ruins of St. Simeon; the almost prehistoric ruins of Ebla, the oldest city in the entire world and the location of the first ever library; and the ancient Canaanite city of Ugarit, where the first alphabet was created. The span of the periods of history from almost prehistoric, to Greco-Roman, to Byzantine, to Crusader, to Moorish, and everything in between, the history these archeological sites encompass is indeed comprehensive and astounding.
The beautiful natural and unspoiled surroundings of these places greatly enhance the experience, since most of these historical treasures are situated on land that is sparsely settled. We also visited Maaloula, a small village outside Damascus carved into of the rocks in a canyon, were Aramaic, the language which is believed to be the language that Jesus spoke, is still spoken. The beautiful Convent and Church of St. Thecla along with the nearby the Byzantine Chapel of St. Sergius are nestled high up into the caves in the canyons resulting in a profoundly spectacular feast for the eyes, and likely to stir spiritual feelings as the swallows swoop around in the rarified atmosphere.
SHOPPING IN SOUKS NEARLY A TRANSCENDENTAL EXPERIENCE
Other fascinating excursions include shopping in the souks of the ancient cities of Damascus and Aleppo, where it becomes almost a transcendental experience to shop, especially when you consider the bargains, if you are good at haggling! None of us tried to bargain too hard, however, considering it bad taste in the light of our government’s exploitive war in nearby Iraq. Nonetheless, the prices of things in Syria in general are more than fair.
It is the custom in Syrian shops to offer flower tea or coffee to potential buyers, and to engage in lively conversation prior to the buying/selling, transforming it into a very educational and enjoyable experience. Each city also has its specialties to offer in terms of products, such as fine silk scarves, table cloths, jewelry, covered wooden boxes and end tables decorated with intricately inlaid marquetry, often designed with icons or patterns indigenous to certain areas or tribes of Syria.
SYRIAN NEWSPAPERS AND MEDIA: WAR IS ABOUT ISRAEL NOT OIL
It may not come as a big surprise that the Syrian newspapers have many stories about the evils of Zionism, the neoconservatives, apartheid Israel, Israel's Apartheid Wall, the war crimes of Ariel Sharon, and general wrath about Israel's aggression against the Palestinian people. These kinds of candid stories are not what one typically finds in the US media. By the way, there were no Syrian stories dwelling on that red herring of "oil" as the reason for the US-led war on Iraq. Because the Syrians know, along with the rest of the world, that the war on Iraq was the brainchild of Israel and the Zionists, both Israeli and American.
It is interesting also to note that Syria does not export oil, but uses the oil that is in its ground only for Syria’s domestic use.
ZIONISTS ARE RE-BUILDING THIRD TEMPLE OFF-SITE IN ISRAEL
The following revelation most likely will come as a surprise to you, dear readers, as it was even a surprise to me, an expert on Zionism and Palestine-Israel.
As a matter of fact, it is a fact that is not known by many outside of Israel or the Middle East:
The Zionist Jews are already re-building the Third Temple offsite somewhere in the Jewish state of Israel, which they plan to re-locate to the original site of the first two temples in Jerusalem--- on top of the Temple Mount, the site of the “Wailing Wall” where Jews currently worship, and where the Al Aqsa Mosque currently sits atop. The Zionists are waiting for the right moment to destroy the Al Aqsa Mosque of the Dome of the Rock, which is the third most holy site of the Muslim world, and then re-locate the temple they are currently building off-site. We were informed about this endeavor by a top-level Syrian businessman during our trip over dinner.
According to him there are many Zionist organizations whose sole purpose is to realize this event. Apparently this is common knowledge in the Middle East, yet Americans are certainly not aware of this. This makes it even clearer why Sharon’s visit to the Al Aqsa Mosque in September 2000 with 1000 troops sparked off the Second Intifada by the Palestinians. Of course, the Palestinians were already pushed to the boiling point by many factors at that point.
However the military visit to Al Aqsa Mosque was a deliberately provocative act by Sharon to show that he was stepping up the timetable to realize the Zionist dream of rebuilding the Temple on the site of the Al Aqsa mosque, heralding a NEW WORLD ORDER with Jerusalem as the capital of the world. The Zionists have already been digging tunnels underneath the Al Aqsa Mosque. For more information about this, please check out http://www.hoffman-info.com/warren.html and also http://www.templemount.org/tempprep.html.
Of course, the Palestinians reacted predictably violently as Sharon was hoping, to give him an excuse to “retaliate” with even greater force and more deadly violence, since Israel has the fourth strongest army in the world, and the Palestinians have NONE.
Unfortunately for Sharon, the WILL OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE is stronger than all of his weapons. However, the Palestinian people are being sorely tried. It’s up to the American people who have become enlightened about the evil of Zionism to spread the word of this new Nazism, this neo-Nazism, and to stop it by pressuring our government to end its unconditional support of racist apartheid Israel and becoming the media ourselves. We must spread the word NOW. There is still time for JUSTICE to triumph over evil.
THE POWER OF THE PEOPLE AND PUBLIC OPINION WILL CHANGE THINGS
As a lone sign at the recent anti-war rally in NYC on March 20, 2004, stated: "Second Most Important World Super-Power: American Public Opinion." That’s why they lie to us, because we are really powerful. Once the American public becomes armed with the Truth about Israel, the elite are afraid that We the People will demand changes. And the awakened American people will.
If you believe in justice for all regardless of religion, ethnicity or sex, you and me, we've got our work cut out for us.
At any rate, if you are looking for a fantastic, eye-opening adventure with good value for your money, I highly recommend that you consider taking a trip to Syria. I have been to many places around the world, and my trip to Syria ranks somewhere at the very top.
FOR MORE INFORMATION on travel to Syria, contact author Scott Davis about his upcoming tours to Syria and his book “Road From Damascus” via his website http://www.cunepress.net and http://www.dialoguesyria.org. If you want to go to Syria on your own, please contact Caravan-Serai. Based in Seattle, they specialize in arranging travel to Middle Eastern countries. Their website is http://www.caravan-serai.com.
For information on how to get a VHS tape or DVD of a travelogue-documentary I am making about my trip to Syria as well as other documentaries, please contact me via my website at http://www.exposingisraeliapartheid.com.
Caption for photo: Wendy Campbell, far right, with friends at the Omyyad Mosque in Damascus, Syria. The Omyyad Mosque is considered the third most important mosque in the world. The lavish mosaics were most impressive.
I just got back from a fabulous trip to Syria, truly a hidden treasure full of fascinating historical sites going back thousands of years and a delightful place with incredibly friendly and hospitable people, even after finding out that I am an American.
SYRIA IS MISREPRESENTED BY ZIONIST-DOMINATED US MEDIA
You might be surprised to hear that Syria is an intriguing and top-notch destination, even for Americans. But think about it. Who has been telling you that Syria is full of terrorists? Of course, it's the Zionist-dominated American media. The very same media that has been embedded as part of our Zionist-dominated war-mongering government. The very same media that has been beating the drums for war against all the countries that Zionists would like to see the US invade and "democratize". The very same media that when being "risque" may even try to blame the war on "oil". The very same media that goes out of its way to avoid the word "Zionism" or explaining Israel's apartheid regime, or Israel's on-going history of ethnic-cleansing against non-Jewish indigenous Palestinians in Palestine-Israel. The very same media that tries to deny that the war on Iraq has been a war fought on only Israel's behalf.
Yes, THAT U.S. media. That Department of Misinformation.
So, no wonder that I, for one, was not surprised to find out that Syria is actually a friendly, beautiful and fascinating place to visit.
INCREDIBLY FRIENDLY SYRIAN PEOPLE
However, I must say, that I was surprised at how incredibly friendly the Syrian people were. We went in with a small group tour, all Christians (mostly Christian Scientists, and a couple Roman Catholics), and one agnostic.
Everywhere we went, even just walking down the street, many of the Syrian people called out "Hello" and "Welcome!" to us, even after they found out we were American, which we were more than a little ashamed to admit since we are all anti-war and detest Bush's policies. We were welcomed into many Syrians' homes for "flower tea" or Syrian or Turkish coffee, into upscale homes, modest city apartments and Bedouin beehive-shaped adobe mud homes sitting on carpets way out in the countryside.
SYRIANS KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JUDAISM AND ZIONISM
By the way, our tour guide, a Greek Orthodox Christian, said on several occasions to our group that Syrians are not against Jews and Judaism but they are against Zionism, (as well as American “crusaders”). Syrians all know what Zionism is, but Zionist Jews in this country have not gone out of their way to explain to non-Jewish Americans exactly what Zionism is. The typical explanation a Zionist Jew will give to explain to a non-Jew when asked about Zionism is to claim that Zionism is the belief that Jews must have a homeland in Israel, formerly known as Palestine, and that Jews must have self-sovereignty in a Jewish state. They never include the fact that in order for Jews to have a Jewish state, it has always been and continues to be at the expense of the indigenous non-Jewish Palestinian people. Zionists typically put a veil on the ugly way in which Israel was created and Israel’s on-going ethnic cleansing campaign against the indigenous, non-Jewish Palestinian people who are being persecuted and denied equal rights in their own ancestral homeland.
The ethnocentric Jewish state of Israel is also maintained at the expense of the American people with the billions of our tax dollars which our government funnels to Israel every year unconditionally and virtually on demand. On top of that, our government’s political and economic support of the apartheid state of Israel has created anti-American sentiment worldwide and sacrifices our credibility as a democratic, just country. Palestinians continue to pay the ultimate price for racist Israel with their lives and property, but now Americans are paying not only with their tax dollars and our country’s reputation, but also with American blood in fighting wars on behalf of Israel, such as the war on Iraq.
Fortunately not all Jews are Zionists and not all Jews try to hide the truth about Zionism and Zionist Israel. An excellent primer entitled “Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict” written by Jews For Justice in the Middle East can be found at the website http://www.cactus48.com. For information about how some Jews believe Zionism to be the exact opposite of Judaism, read about the Neturei Karta, a worldwide organization of Ultra Orthodox Jews, at http://www.nkusa.org or order my documentary entitled “Neturei Karta: Jews Against Zionism” via my website at http://www.exposingisraeliapartheid.com.
SYRIAN WOMEN HAVE FREEDOM OF CHOICE
Contrary to what Zionists' would have Americans believe, Syrian women are free to wear whatever they want. In any given street scene or restaurant, the spectrum of clothing that women in Syria wear ranges from Brittany Spears' style skin-tight jeans and teeshirts (but no belly showing) to professional Western-style suits, to wearing a hejab (head covering) and sometimes a traditional robe to being entirely covered in flowing black, face included (mostly from Iran, I was told). There were no Afghan-style burqas to be found, even in a store, which we had wanted to bring back for a Halloween outfit.
SYRIAN MEN ARE MODERN IN THEIR OUTLOOK TOWARDS WOMEN
Contrary to what Zionists would have you believe about the Muslim men oppressing their women, we found Muslim men to be very charming, natural and relaxed and even deferential to women. As a woman I felt completely comfortable in communicating with the Syrian men I met. In fact, at one point, my fiance decided to stay with the tour in the museum, and I decided to split to explore the nearby shops on my own. We were in Aleppo, the oldest continuously inhabited city in the entire world. I went into a shop that sold some hookah pipes to photograph them, and a small gathering of men inside the shop kindly invited me to join them in smoking the "hubbly-bubbly" as it is called. I was sincere when I said I would like to but didn't have time. They were most gracious.
HUBBLY-BUBBLY
By the way, the "hubbly-bubbly" is a recent popular craze at all the Syrian restaurants and cafes. It is just flavored tobacco with apple being the current Syrian favorite, but it is available in other flavors such as mint, cappuccino and more. I tried it twice later, and can attest to the fact that it is very mild tobacco. I did not even get a nicotine buzz! It's just a fun thing to do. It made me think of the hookah-smoking caterpillar in “Alice in Wonderland”. Both men and women smoke it with languid relish. It certainly adds to the exotic mystique of Syrian ambiance.
SYRIAN PRESIDENT IS MUCH-ADMIRED BY SYRIAN PEOPLE
Another common myth that the Zionist-dominated media puts forth is that the Syrian President Assad is some kind of malevolent dictator. We found that both Assad Jr., and his father are very popular with most Syrians. Many of the homes we visited, including a Kurdish Bedouin adobe beehive-shaped home, had a poster of him prominently displayed on their living room wall. I asked our guide if this was mandatory in Syria, and he replied that it was not and pointed out how he hadn’t put up a poster of Assad in his living room where we had all enjoyed some flower tea and Turkish coffee early in the trip. Not only were the posters of Assad in most public buildings, including a private Christian school, and restaurants, many Syrians even had a decal of him on their cars! A Syrian businesswoman who joined us for dinner in Damascus one night spoke very warmly and approvingly of Assad, and she seemed quite sincere. Syrians think their president is doing a great job. This is certainly something Bush cannot boast of! I don’t know anyone who has a poster of him anywhere in the USA unless it’s making fun of him!
JEWS ARE TREATED WITH RESPECT IN SYRIA
Yet another common myth is that Jews were chased out of Syria, and that any Jews who remain in Syria are discriminated against. It should come as no real surprise in this age of Orwellian “news” that quite the opposite is true. First of all, many Jews left Syria voluntarily to be in Israel, which as you know, gives favored status to Jews. The Jews who have chosen to stay in Syria are among the wealthiest of Syrian society. On top of that, the Syrian government goes out of its way to make sure that Jews are not discriminated against there, and in fact, apparently Jews get preferential treatment in many cases. Just for an example, Jews may get governmental documents speedier than non-Jews in Syria precisely to avoid any charges of discrimination, we were told. We personally met a Jewish man who was managing his antiques shop in Damascus, where he had non-Jewish shop-owners as neighbors. They all seemed to get along together quite well. Once again, another Zionist myth shattered.
SYRIAN CARS VS. TAXIS
One interesting fact about Syria is that cars are prohibitively expensive there, with huge taxes being imposed on them, sometimes three times as much as the original price of the car! Therefore, Syria is simply awash in taxi-cabs! It’s very cheap to take taxis in Syria, fortunately, and they also have community taxis for those on a very tight budget.
HISTORIAL TREASURES ABOUND IN SYRIA
For people interested in the history of humankind and archeology, Syria is an absolute treasure trove. One can only surmise that the reason Americans don’t know about this superlative destination is because of the Zionist-dominated US media, which is loathe to promote enemies of Israel. Syria is a world-class destination because its historical treasures excel those found in Italy or Greece, not only in terms of scale, variety and excellent preservation, but also, happily, because of the lack of hordes of swarming tourists as those found at the ruins in Greece and Italy, allowing for not only greater enjoyment but also for superlative photo opportunities.
We were impressed beyond our expectations with the incredible beauty of places like Palmyra, the exquisitely sculpted golden-colored stone ruins of a Nabatean, then Roman, city which spreads out for miles; Apamea, the site of ancient chariot-grooved Roman roads lined with majestic columns amidst colorful flowers and herds of goats and surrounded with hilltop villages; the Craq des Chevaliers, the spectacular Crusader castle like something right of a lavish epic movie; the impressive gated fortress of the Citadel surrounded by a now dry moat in Aleppo; the splendorous Omyyad Mosque in Damascus where all women have to don robes with hoods in order to enter; the ancient Christian church ruins of St. Simeon; the almost prehistoric ruins of Ebla, the oldest city in the entire world and the location of the first ever library; and the ancient Canaanite city of Ugarit, where the first alphabet was created. The span of the periods of history from almost prehistoric, to Greco-Roman, to Byzantine, to Crusader, to Moorish, and everything in between, the history these archeological sites encompass is indeed comprehensive and astounding.
The beautiful natural and unspoiled surroundings of these places greatly enhance the experience, since most of these historical treasures are situated on land that is sparsely settled. We also visited Maaloula, a small village outside Damascus carved into of the rocks in a canyon, were Aramaic, the language which is believed to be the language that Jesus spoke, is still spoken. The beautiful Convent and Church of St. Thecla along with the nearby the Byzantine Chapel of St. Sergius are nestled high up into the caves in the canyons resulting in a profoundly spectacular feast for the eyes, and likely to stir spiritual feelings as the swallows swoop around in the rarified atmosphere.
SHOPPING IN SOUKS NEARLY A TRANSCENDENTAL EXPERIENCE
Other fascinating excursions include shopping in the souks of the ancient cities of Damascus and Aleppo, where it becomes almost a transcendental experience to shop, especially when you consider the bargains, if you are good at haggling! None of us tried to bargain too hard, however, considering it bad taste in the light of our government’s exploitive war in nearby Iraq. Nonetheless, the prices of things in Syria in general are more than fair.
It is the custom in Syrian shops to offer flower tea or coffee to potential buyers, and to engage in lively conversation prior to the buying/selling, transforming it into a very educational and enjoyable experience. Each city also has its specialties to offer in terms of products, such as fine silk scarves, table cloths, jewelry, covered wooden boxes and end tables decorated with intricately inlaid marquetry, often designed with icons or patterns indigenous to certain areas or tribes of Syria.
SYRIAN NEWSPAPERS AND MEDIA: WAR IS ABOUT ISRAEL NOT OIL
It may not come as a big surprise that the Syrian newspapers have many stories about the evils of Zionism, the neoconservatives, apartheid Israel, Israel's Apartheid Wall, the war crimes of Ariel Sharon, and general wrath about Israel's aggression against the Palestinian people. These kinds of candid stories are not what one typically finds in the US media. By the way, there were no Syrian stories dwelling on that red herring of "oil" as the reason for the US-led war on Iraq. Because the Syrians know, along with the rest of the world, that the war on Iraq was the brainchild of Israel and the Zionists, both Israeli and American.
It is interesting also to note that Syria does not export oil, but uses the oil that is in its ground only for Syria’s domestic use.
ZIONISTS ARE RE-BUILDING THIRD TEMPLE OFF-SITE IN ISRAEL
The following revelation most likely will come as a surprise to you, dear readers, as it was even a surprise to me, an expert on Zionism and Palestine-Israel.
As a matter of fact, it is a fact that is not known by many outside of Israel or the Middle East:
The Zionist Jews are already re-building the Third Temple offsite somewhere in the Jewish state of Israel, which they plan to re-locate to the original site of the first two temples in Jerusalem--- on top of the Temple Mount, the site of the “Wailing Wall” where Jews currently worship, and where the Al Aqsa Mosque currently sits atop. The Zionists are waiting for the right moment to destroy the Al Aqsa Mosque of the Dome of the Rock, which is the third most holy site of the Muslim world, and then re-locate the temple they are currently building off-site. We were informed about this endeavor by a top-level Syrian businessman during our trip over dinner.
According to him there are many Zionist organizations whose sole purpose is to realize this event. Apparently this is common knowledge in the Middle East, yet Americans are certainly not aware of this. This makes it even clearer why Sharon’s visit to the Al Aqsa Mosque in September 2000 with 1000 troops sparked off the Second Intifada by the Palestinians. Of course, the Palestinians were already pushed to the boiling point by many factors at that point.
However the military visit to Al Aqsa Mosque was a deliberately provocative act by Sharon to show that he was stepping up the timetable to realize the Zionist dream of rebuilding the Temple on the site of the Al Aqsa mosque, heralding a NEW WORLD ORDER with Jerusalem as the capital of the world. The Zionists have already been digging tunnels underneath the Al Aqsa Mosque. For more information about this, please check out http://www.hoffman-info.com/warren.html and also http://www.templemount.org/tempprep.html.
Of course, the Palestinians reacted predictably violently as Sharon was hoping, to give him an excuse to “retaliate” with even greater force and more deadly violence, since Israel has the fourth strongest army in the world, and the Palestinians have NONE.
Unfortunately for Sharon, the WILL OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE is stronger than all of his weapons. However, the Palestinian people are being sorely tried. It’s up to the American people who have become enlightened about the evil of Zionism to spread the word of this new Nazism, this neo-Nazism, and to stop it by pressuring our government to end its unconditional support of racist apartheid Israel and becoming the media ourselves. We must spread the word NOW. There is still time for JUSTICE to triumph over evil.
THE POWER OF THE PEOPLE AND PUBLIC OPINION WILL CHANGE THINGS
As a lone sign at the recent anti-war rally in NYC on March 20, 2004, stated: "Second Most Important World Super-Power: American Public Opinion." That’s why they lie to us, because we are really powerful. Once the American public becomes armed with the Truth about Israel, the elite are afraid that We the People will demand changes. And the awakened American people will.
If you believe in justice for all regardless of religion, ethnicity or sex, you and me, we've got our work cut out for us.
At any rate, if you are looking for a fantastic, eye-opening adventure with good value for your money, I highly recommend that you consider taking a trip to Syria. I have been to many places around the world, and my trip to Syria ranks somewhere at the very top.
FOR MORE INFORMATION on travel to Syria, contact author Scott Davis about his upcoming tours to Syria and his book “Road From Damascus” via his website http://www.cunepress.net and http://www.dialoguesyria.org. If you want to go to Syria on your own, please contact Caravan-Serai. Based in Seattle, they specialize in arranging travel to Middle Eastern countries. Their website is http://www.caravan-serai.com.
For information on how to get a VHS tape or DVD of a travelogue-documentary I am making about my trip to Syria as well as other documentaries, please contact me via my website at http://www.exposingisraeliapartheid.com.
Caption for photo: Wendy Campbell, far right, with friends at the Omyyad Mosque in Damascus, Syria. The Omyyad Mosque is considered the third most important mosque in the world. The lavish mosaics were most impressive.
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Tat's nice Wendy...did they tell you when they're going to end the BRUTAL MILITARY OCCUPATION of Lebanon?
For more information:
http://www.free-lebanon.com
Wendy C. is a bona-fide racist. It has been proven so deeply and convincingly that she has been barred from many Indy sites.
Her original post is filled with so many outright lies that I cannot spend the time to dispell them. Nice photos, but the rest is total BUNK and an attempt at a distraction from the truth.
I am not pro-Zionist, but I sure as hell hate a liar.
Her original post is filled with so many outright lies that I cannot spend the time to dispell them. Nice photos, but the rest is total BUNK and an attempt at a distraction from the truth.
I am not pro-Zionist, but I sure as hell hate a liar.
I have only been banned from sf.indymedia.org by "nessie" (and who hasn't?? who knows what he's about?? does anyone really care anyway??) re: "racy" articles--- no doubt banned by the usual Zionist types who do in fact HATE the TRUTH about Israel getting out.
For the TRUTH about Israel, please check out my website http://www.exposingisraeliapartheid.com.
For the TRUTH about Syria, check it out for yourselves like I did. It was a FANTASTIC trip, as our entire group of Christians and agnostics agreed. I have even heard of a group of New York Jews who went and had a great time-- altho the Zionist Jews were dismayed to hear about this! Because that exposes their LIES.
For the TRUTH about Israel, please check out my website http://www.exposingisraeliapartheid.com.
For the TRUTH about Syria, check it out for yourselves like I did. It was a FANTASTIC trip, as our entire group of Christians and agnostics agreed. I have even heard of a group of New York Jews who went and had a great time-- altho the Zionist Jews were dismayed to hear about this! Because that exposes their LIES.
Wendy's obsession about "zionists" is not healthy. SHe should seek mental help. Also, her statements are absurdly inaccurate and baseless. It isn't even worth the time to dispute all her nonsense here. It's like a dog taking a dump on the ground and then demanding you analyze the dump.
Also, her calling herself an "expert" on zionism is pretty laughable.
Hitler called himself an "expert" on jews...
It's also disgusting that wendy claims to be "anti-racist," yet urges the destruction of the jewish homeland and demands that millions of people who hate israel and hate jews be allowed to flood into israel and take it over. SHe calls for a "solution" that would result in jews being slaughtered, then claims to be anti-racist.
Muslims have 20+ muslim countries. Jews will continue to have 1 tiny jewish country. Sorry, wendy.
Also, her calling herself an "expert" on zionism is pretty laughable.
Hitler called himself an "expert" on jews...
It's also disgusting that wendy claims to be "anti-racist," yet urges the destruction of the jewish homeland and demands that millions of people who hate israel and hate jews be allowed to flood into israel and take it over. SHe calls for a "solution" that would result in jews being slaughtered, then claims to be anti-racist.
Muslims have 20+ muslim countries. Jews will continue to have 1 tiny jewish country. Sorry, wendy.
even people you hate have something positive to contribute, if you'll only let them.
give peace a chance.
give peace a chance.
Hey, I don't support ANY racist ethnocentric, racist, ethnic-cleansing, genocidal, apartheid country such as Israel. Fine if YOU want to! Don't expect me and my fellow anti-Zionist American colleagues to support racist Israel in any way, shape or form.
NO WAY!
By the way, it's fun to be me. Cuz I'm on the politically and morally correct side-- that is not the Zionists' side-- yuk! They can all go to IsraHell for all I care.
All anti-Zionists including anti-Zionist Jews are A-OK with me. In fact, I just got a call from Rabbi Weiss of the Neturei Karta yesterday-- and he called me an "angel". I gave him permission to use my documentary "Neturei Karta: Jews Against Zionism" as a fund raiser for their excellent work. On their business cards it says "Pray for the peaceful dismantling of the Zionist state of Israel".
AND, check it out--- I got published on Al Jazeerah!! Yeah, baby!!
http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%20editorials/2004%20opinions/June/12%20o/Report%20Back%20from%20Syria%20By%20Wendy%20Campbell.htm
FREE, FREE PALESTINE!
NO WAY!
By the way, it's fun to be me. Cuz I'm on the politically and morally correct side-- that is not the Zionists' side-- yuk! They can all go to IsraHell for all I care.
All anti-Zionists including anti-Zionist Jews are A-OK with me. In fact, I just got a call from Rabbi Weiss of the Neturei Karta yesterday-- and he called me an "angel". I gave him permission to use my documentary "Neturei Karta: Jews Against Zionism" as a fund raiser for their excellent work. On their business cards it says "Pray for the peaceful dismantling of the Zionist state of Israel".
AND, check it out--- I got published on Al Jazeerah!! Yeah, baby!!
http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%20editorials/2004%20opinions/June/12%20o/Report%20Back%20from%20Syria%20By%20Wendy%20Campbell.htm
FREE, FREE PALESTINE!
Wendy, I don't want to go to hell. You first.
The Jewish people having a homeland is not "apartheid."
If all you wanted was peace and justice for palestinians WITHOUT destroying Israel, none of us would have a problem with you.
But you want peace for palestinians, AND the end of the existence of the jewish homeland. THat's why idiotic nutcases like nkusa are on your side, and normal intelligent people are not.
And I'm sorry to hear that it's fun being you. IT was probably fun being hitler too, most of the time.
The Jewish people having a homeland is not "apartheid."
If all you wanted was peace and justice for palestinians WITHOUT destroying Israel, none of us would have a problem with you.
But you want peace for palestinians, AND the end of the existence of the jewish homeland. THat's why idiotic nutcases like nkusa are on your side, and normal intelligent people are not.
And I'm sorry to hear that it's fun being you. IT was probably fun being hitler too, most of the time.
So when will we have your position paper on the dismantling of the Dineh nation? A race-based theocracy right here in the USofA?
Hurry, the contradiction is eroding your position as we speak!! They even get tax breaks to do it! How can you stand the hypocrisy?
Hurry, the contradiction is eroding your position as we speak!! They even get tax breaks to do it! How can you stand the hypocrisy?
Wendy is ok with islamic states existing. But she's against a jewish homeland existing.
Muslims can force islamic rule and that's fine with wendy. But jews even having a state at all, just 1 tiny state, is the world's greatest evil in wendy's eyes.
But she's no antisemite, no sir.
It's actually ridiculous that we even take the time to discuss wendy. She's not worth it. SHe has no value on this planet. SHe's just one obsessed nutcase. There are plenty more important nutcases to worry about. In fact, I feel silly even knowing her name. It's a waste of memory.
Unfortuantely, she is obsessively active in promoting hatred of israel and hatred of israel's very existence, I guess that's why she has to be responded to.
If "zionists" were so murderious and evil, wendy would be dead. And the world would be better. I wish they were what she claimed. THen she'd be gone and we could discuss how the palestinians will make peace with israel, rather than NOT destroying israel.
Muslims can force islamic rule and that's fine with wendy. But jews even having a state at all, just 1 tiny state, is the world's greatest evil in wendy's eyes.
But she's no antisemite, no sir.
It's actually ridiculous that we even take the time to discuss wendy. She's not worth it. SHe has no value on this planet. SHe's just one obsessed nutcase. There are plenty more important nutcases to worry about. In fact, I feel silly even knowing her name. It's a waste of memory.
Unfortuantely, she is obsessively active in promoting hatred of israel and hatred of israel's very existence, I guess that's why she has to be responded to.
If "zionists" were so murderious and evil, wendy would be dead. And the world would be better. I wish they were what she claimed. THen she'd be gone and we could discuss how the palestinians will make peace with israel, rather than NOT destroying israel.
Fine, have your racist, apartheid Jewish state--- just don't expect anti-Zionist. anti-racist Americans to pay for it! You are on your own, Zionist racists. Israel is a moneypit for Americans and worse than that, current support for apartheid Israel is isolating the US from the rest of the world. We anti-Zionists are going to change all that.
By the way, for those who haven't checked these websites out, please do: http://www.exposingisraeliapartheid.com and http://www.nkusa.org.
JUSTICE, PEACE, SECURITY, LIBERTY AND FREEDOM FOR AAAALLLLLLLLLL!!!
FREE, FREE PALESTINE!
By the way, for those who haven't checked these websites out, please do: http://www.exposingisraeliapartheid.com and http://www.nkusa.org.
JUSTICE, PEACE, SECURITY, LIBERTY AND FREEDOM FOR AAAALLLLLLLLLL!!!
FREE, FREE PALESTINE!
I think you should address people on their own terms rather than giving them the position of speaking for 20+ different countries they're not even part of.
Wendy's gripe is as an American taxpayer? fine, let's talk about that, or not, or whatever. You can't blame her on the Arabs though!!
Peace out.
Wendy's gripe is as an American taxpayer? fine, let's talk about that, or not, or whatever. You can't blame her on the Arabs though!!
Peace out.
Let Israel have its State in its pre 1967 (Green Line) borders.
But for Peace, Free the Palestinian People and let them have their State also on the Whole of the West Bank and Gaza.
In several conferences in the past year both Egypt and Jordan have said we will recognize Israel's right to exist if they will give freedom to the Palestinian People and allow them to have a State in the Whole of the West Bank and Gaza.
The Saudi Government has also made this same statement.
The big bonus to this would be a huge reduction in terrorism and the recruiting of possible terrorists.
Help end terrorism by ending hypocrisy……
As an American living in Saudi Arabia, what I have learned is one of the best way to put a large dent in terrorism is to free the Palestinian People from the Brutal Israeli Occupation and Oppression.
This would do more to help end terrorism than going to war with all the Arab Nations.
Even if this has no effect on Usama Bin Ladan and him high up associates, It would greatly reduce the number of new recruits.
Now these possible new recruits see the U.S. as hypocritical because they say freedom for all yet they give 6 billion dollars a year to Israel who does not give freedom to the Palestinian People. If this one problem was solved they would have more respect for the U.S. and these would be recruits would think twice before joining Al Qaeda.
Who are the real victims?
How many People have died and how in the last three and one half years since this struggle for Palestinian Freedom began?
For complete details:
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
And thousands of people made homeless because of home demolitions in the West Bank and Gaza.
For complete details:
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/homes.html
But for Peace, Free the Palestinian People and let them have their State also on the Whole of the West Bank and Gaza.
In several conferences in the past year both Egypt and Jordan have said we will recognize Israel's right to exist if they will give freedom to the Palestinian People and allow them to have a State in the Whole of the West Bank and Gaza.
The Saudi Government has also made this same statement.
The big bonus to this would be a huge reduction in terrorism and the recruiting of possible terrorists.
Help end terrorism by ending hypocrisy……
As an American living in Saudi Arabia, what I have learned is one of the best way to put a large dent in terrorism is to free the Palestinian People from the Brutal Israeli Occupation and Oppression.
This would do more to help end terrorism than going to war with all the Arab Nations.
Even if this has no effect on Usama Bin Ladan and him high up associates, It would greatly reduce the number of new recruits.
Now these possible new recruits see the U.S. as hypocritical because they say freedom for all yet they give 6 billion dollars a year to Israel who does not give freedom to the Palestinian People. If this one problem was solved they would have more respect for the U.S. and these would be recruits would think twice before joining Al Qaeda.
Who are the real victims?
How many People have died and how in the last three and one half years since this struggle for Palestinian Freedom began?
For complete details:
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
And thousands of people made homeless because of home demolitions in the West Bank and Gaza.
For complete details:
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/homes.html
Wendy says: Fine, have your racist, apartheid Jewish state---
INTELLIGENT RESPONSE: It's not a racist, apartheid state, no matter how many times you repeat that it is.
Wendy says: just don't expect anti-Zionist. anti-racist Americans to pay for it!
INTELLIGENT RESPONSE: YOu're not anti-racist. But as for not paying for it, go right ahead and don't pay taxes.
Wendy yells: JUSTICE, PEACE, SECURITY, LIBERTY AND FREEDOM FOR AAAALLLLLLLLLL!!!
INTELLIGENT RESPONSE: If you want peace and security for all, why do you suggest that Israel open its borders and allow people to want to slaughter jews to flood into israel?
Wendy screams: FREE, FREE PALESTINE!
INTELLIGENT RESPONSE: What does that mean? if "Free Palestine" means "Destroy Israel" then no, don't free palestine, ever.
INTELLIGENT RESPONSE: It's not a racist, apartheid state, no matter how many times you repeat that it is.
Wendy says: just don't expect anti-Zionist. anti-racist Americans to pay for it!
INTELLIGENT RESPONSE: YOu're not anti-racist. But as for not paying for it, go right ahead and don't pay taxes.
Wendy yells: JUSTICE, PEACE, SECURITY, LIBERTY AND FREEDOM FOR AAAALLLLLLLLLL!!!
INTELLIGENT RESPONSE: If you want peace and security for all, why do you suggest that Israel open its borders and allow people to want to slaughter jews to flood into israel?
Wendy screams: FREE, FREE PALESTINE!
INTELLIGENT RESPONSE: What does that mean? if "Free Palestine" means "Destroy Israel" then no, don't free palestine, ever.
Israel is a racist, apartheid state. Probably all states are, to some extent, but Israel may be the worst.
You're in no position to correct as you're not aware of most of the *real* facts and don't really know what apartheid is.
Israel is not apartheid state, and many states are much more racist and close to being apartheid than Israel.
Israel is not apartheid state, and many states are much more racist and close to being apartheid than Israel.
CT is just lying to himself when he says Israel is not an apartheid state--- everyone else knows it is! Desmond Tutu and other South Africans even say apartheid Israel is far worse than apartheid South Africa was.
We the American people who have become enlightened about the racist, war-mongering, apartheid, anti-democratic, murderous, fascist, ethnocentric, ethnic-cleansing Zionist Jewish state of Israel are working to pressure our governmental leaders to STOP USING OUR TAX MONEY AND OUR COUNTRY'S REPUTATION AND POLITICAL CLOUT TO SUPPORT THE RACIST, APARTHEID JEWISH STATE OF ISRAEL OR ANY OTHER COUNTRY THAT PERSECUTES OTHERS BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT THE RIGHT RELIGION, ETHNICITY, RACE OR GENDER.
FREE PALESTINE OF ALL ZIONIST RACISTS WHO PERSECUTE NON-JEWS!
We the American people who have become enlightened about the racist, war-mongering, apartheid, anti-democratic, murderous, fascist, ethnocentric, ethnic-cleansing Zionist Jewish state of Israel are working to pressure our governmental leaders to STOP USING OUR TAX MONEY AND OUR COUNTRY'S REPUTATION AND POLITICAL CLOUT TO SUPPORT THE RACIST, APARTHEID JEWISH STATE OF ISRAEL OR ANY OTHER COUNTRY THAT PERSECUTES OTHERS BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT THE RIGHT RELIGION, ETHNICITY, RACE OR GENDER.
FREE PALESTINE OF ALL ZIONIST RACISTS WHO PERSECUTE NON-JEWS!
1. In apartheid S.A. there were laws forbidding marriage between white and black; in Israel there are no such laws. There are mixed Jew- non-Jew married couples in Israel.
2. In apartheid S.A. there was also the strict confining of blacks to specific native areas; in Israel non-Jews aren't confined to such regions or counties.
3. In apartheid S.A. there were laws prohibiting the fraternization of whites and blacks; such laws don't exist in Israel.
3. In apartheid S.A. a small minority of whites ruled over a far larger majority of blacks; in Israel there's a Jewish majority that's in power.
4. In apartheid S.A. Blacks were denied voting rights, and any real participation in the political life of the country; this is not the case in Israel.
5. Apartheid S.A.'s governing system was based on racial supremacism; in Israel there are no laws which even consider the subject of racial preference. And Israel is the only state in the history of mankind to have made a major effort to bring a large group of black people (the Ethiopian Jews once called Falashas) to it in order to make them full citizens.
6. Those like Windy Hurricane who call Israel an apartheid state base their accusation on an erroneous correspondence of whites in South Africa with Jews in Israel, and blacks in South Africa with Arabs in Israel. Their contention is that the same kinds of discrimination and bias that applied against blacks in South Africa, apply to Arabs in Israel. This accusation is absurd and factually incorrect. But Windy Wendy has no qualms lying anyway, and derives solace from what Desmond Tutu and others think.
7. Since the Oslo "peace" Process agreements in 1993, over 90% of the disputed territories' Arabs are not under the official rule of Israel. They are instead part of the PA and its government. The political social and economic responsibility for the Palestinian Arabs lies with the PA regime.
8. Windy Hurricane may point out that Israel actually has control over the Palestinians in that it limits not only their entrance into Israel, but their free movement between different parts of the territory controlled by the PA. Windy will also say that like South Africa it confines the ‘oppressed population’ to specific areas out of which it cannot move. This accusation brings us to one of the major differences between the South African situation, and the Israeli one. Israel has been since its very founding involved in a continual military effort at its own self-defense. Since the start of the al-Aqsa intifada in Sep '00, this has included the insane use of homicide-bombers to kill and maim as many innocent Israeli civilians as possible. The Palestinian terrorists conducting this campaign have wide support from other terrorist groups and terror states in the area. The South African regime was never subject to anything close to the kind of military threats Israel has been subject to. Israel's limitation of Arab movements not only comes as a natural effort to prevent illegal entry into Israel, but fundamentally as part of its campaign against terror. The difficult economic and social situation of the Palestinians comes in good part because they have launched what the historian Joel Fishman calls a "people's war" - organized, controlled and financed by Arafat's terrorist groups - against Israel in which they are determined to destroy the Jewish state even if it means regressing socially and economically themselves.
The correct comparison between the South African oppressive regime should be made not only with Israel but with the Arab states and the PA itself. The Palestinians' repression of their own people, their denial of freedoms, their corruption, and the use of torture against anyone who opposes the regime, fit in well with the model of the white supremacism regime in S.A. It is the Arab states, and the potential future state represented by the PA itself, that do not tolerate and have persecuted minorities among them. They are the true non-democratic human rights violators of the Middle East.
But as usual, Windy Hurricane will keep employ lying as a psychological mechanism of defense do avoid letting the above truths permeating her rabidly anti-moral heart. She is a typical biased racist, after all.
2. In apartheid S.A. there was also the strict confining of blacks to specific native areas; in Israel non-Jews aren't confined to such regions or counties.
3. In apartheid S.A. there were laws prohibiting the fraternization of whites and blacks; such laws don't exist in Israel.
3. In apartheid S.A. a small minority of whites ruled over a far larger majority of blacks; in Israel there's a Jewish majority that's in power.
4. In apartheid S.A. Blacks were denied voting rights, and any real participation in the political life of the country; this is not the case in Israel.
5. Apartheid S.A.'s governing system was based on racial supremacism; in Israel there are no laws which even consider the subject of racial preference. And Israel is the only state in the history of mankind to have made a major effort to bring a large group of black people (the Ethiopian Jews once called Falashas) to it in order to make them full citizens.
6. Those like Windy Hurricane who call Israel an apartheid state base their accusation on an erroneous correspondence of whites in South Africa with Jews in Israel, and blacks in South Africa with Arabs in Israel. Their contention is that the same kinds of discrimination and bias that applied against blacks in South Africa, apply to Arabs in Israel. This accusation is absurd and factually incorrect. But Windy Wendy has no qualms lying anyway, and derives solace from what Desmond Tutu and others think.
7. Since the Oslo "peace" Process agreements in 1993, over 90% of the disputed territories' Arabs are not under the official rule of Israel. They are instead part of the PA and its government. The political social and economic responsibility for the Palestinian Arabs lies with the PA regime.
8. Windy Hurricane may point out that Israel actually has control over the Palestinians in that it limits not only their entrance into Israel, but their free movement between different parts of the territory controlled by the PA. Windy will also say that like South Africa it confines the ‘oppressed population’ to specific areas out of which it cannot move. This accusation brings us to one of the major differences between the South African situation, and the Israeli one. Israel has been since its very founding involved in a continual military effort at its own self-defense. Since the start of the al-Aqsa intifada in Sep '00, this has included the insane use of homicide-bombers to kill and maim as many innocent Israeli civilians as possible. The Palestinian terrorists conducting this campaign have wide support from other terrorist groups and terror states in the area. The South African regime was never subject to anything close to the kind of military threats Israel has been subject to. Israel's limitation of Arab movements not only comes as a natural effort to prevent illegal entry into Israel, but fundamentally as part of its campaign against terror. The difficult economic and social situation of the Palestinians comes in good part because they have launched what the historian Joel Fishman calls a "people's war" - organized, controlled and financed by Arafat's terrorist groups - against Israel in which they are determined to destroy the Jewish state even if it means regressing socially and economically themselves.
The correct comparison between the South African oppressive regime should be made not only with Israel but with the Arab states and the PA itself. The Palestinians' repression of their own people, their denial of freedoms, their corruption, and the use of torture against anyone who opposes the regime, fit in well with the model of the white supremacism regime in S.A. It is the Arab states, and the potential future state represented by the PA itself, that do not tolerate and have persecuted minorities among them. They are the true non-democratic human rights violators of the Middle East.
But as usual, Windy Hurricane will keep employ lying as a psychological mechanism of defense do avoid letting the above truths permeating her rabidly anti-moral heart. She is a typical biased racist, after all.
It's hard to put too much stock in "racist" nessie's attack on Indybay's allowing Windy Wendy Campbell to post, given that he let Windy Wendy post to SF-IMC for an entire year after her antisemitism became obvious.
He now pretends, in his embarrassment over being on public record at SF-IMC running interference for Windy Wendy for an entire year while in increasingly pathetic self-denial about it, that the post he finally banned her for was somehow considerably different than all the other posts he let slide, and that he banned her the instant he became aware of her antisemitism.
As it happens, that's simply not true. That's how he tells the story. Reality differs.
Nessie's ornate rationalizations to continue to allow Wendy Campbell to post her antisemitism in SF-IMC had everthing to do with nessie's willingness to turn a blind eye to antisemitism in the anti-Zionist movement. Nessie's reply whenever I pointed out Wendy Campbell's antisemitism was to sweep it under the rug, or accuse me of crying "wolf" and use it as an excuse for another sermonette about how I'm the devil.
Just as his complaint now about Wendy here clearly has everything to do with his need to slap down Indybay.
@%<
He now pretends, in his embarrassment over being on public record at SF-IMC running interference for Windy Wendy for an entire year while in increasingly pathetic self-denial about it, that the post he finally banned her for was somehow considerably different than all the other posts he let slide, and that he banned her the instant he became aware of her antisemitism.
As it happens, that's simply not true. That's how he tells the story. Reality differs.
Nessie's ornate rationalizations to continue to allow Wendy Campbell to post her antisemitism in SF-IMC had everthing to do with nessie's willingness to turn a blind eye to antisemitism in the anti-Zionist movement. Nessie's reply whenever I pointed out Wendy Campbell's antisemitism was to sweep it under the rug, or accuse me of crying "wolf" and use it as an excuse for another sermonette about how I'm the devil.
Just as his complaint now about Wendy here clearly has everything to do with his need to slap down Indybay.
@%<
CT: 1. In apartheid S.A. there were laws forbidding marriage between white and black; in Israel there are no such laws. There are mixed Jew- non-Jew married couples in Israel.
Teacher: In apartheid Israel, marraiges between Jews and non-Jews are not considered legal. And there are also laws that the imported slave-workers from the Philippines, etc. are not allowed to have sex with Israeli Jews.
CT is a LIAR.
CT: 2. In apartheid S.A. there was also the strict confining of blacks to specific native areas; in Israel non-Jews aren't confined to such regions or counties.
Teacher: In apartheid Israel inside the Green Line which are the offical borders, it has always been the case that 92% of the land is for use by JEWS ONLY, whereas the 20% of Israeli population that is non-Jewish are squeezed into ghettos on less than 8% of the land. CT is a LIAR.
CT: 3. In apartheid S.A. there were laws prohibiting the fraternization of whites and blacks; such laws don't exist in Israel.
Teacher: In apartheid Israel, non-Jews aren't allowed in Israeli Jewish schools. CT is a LIAR.
CT: 3. In apartheid S.A. a small minority of whites ruled over a far larger majority of blacks; in Israel there's a Jewish majority that's in power.
Teacher: In apartheid Israel, Jews are an artifically maintained "majority" due to constant, continual ethnic cleansing of non-Jews. CT is a LIAR.
CT: 4. In apartheid S.A. Blacks were denied voting rights, and any real participation in the political life of the country; this is not the case in Israel.
Teacher: In apartheid Israel, Palestinians are taxed without representation (which is tyranny). In apartheid Israel, not even Israeli Arabs can run on any platform other than Israel as a JEWISH state. In other words, if any Israeli citizen wanted to run for office in Israel on a platform calling for the transformation of apartheid Jewish Israel to a true secular multi-cultural democracy, they would NOT be allowed to run for office in Israel's apartheid, racist, ethnocentric JEWISH-run government. CT is a LIAR.
CT: 5. Apartheid S.A.'s governing system was based on racial supremacism; in Israel there are no laws which even consider the subject of racial preference. And Israel is the only state in the history of mankind to have made a major effort to bring a large group of black people (the Ethiopian Jews once called Falashas) to it in order to make them full citizens.
Teacher: Apartheid Israel has always been a racist, ethnocentric JEWISH supremacist state with NO constitution calling for completely equal rights for all, including non-Jews. CT is a LIAR. And Israel finally brought in the Ethiopian black Jews but still keeps them at the bottom of the society and throws away their blood during blood drives w/o even testing it for AIDS or anything because Israel is a racist Jewish state. CT is a LIAR.
CT: 6. Those like Windy Hurricane who call Israel an apartheid state base their accusation on an erroneous correspondence of whites in South Africa with Jews in Israel, and blacks in South Africa with Arabs in Israel. Their contention is that the same kinds of discrimination and bias that applied against blacks in South Africa, apply to Arabs in Israel. This accusation is absurd and factually incorrect. But Windy Wendy has no qualms lying anyway, and derives solace from what Desmond Tutu and others think.
Teacher: Wendy Campbell is competely right on target re: Israel is a racist, Jewish state. CT is a LIAR.
CT: 7. Since the Oslo "peace" Process agreements in 1993, over 90% of the disputed territories' Arabs are not under the official rule of Israel. They are instead part of the PA and its government. The political social and economic responsibility for the Palestinian Arabs lies with the PA regime.
Teacher: What a joke! Ha ha ha! If anyone believes one word of CT's statement above, I have some oceanfront property for you in Arizona to take a look at! CT is a loser LIAR!
CT: 8. Windy Hurricane may point out that Israel actually has control over the Palestinians in that it limits not only their entrance into Israel, but their free movement between different parts of the territory controlled by the PA. Windy will also say that like South Africa it confines the ‘oppressed population’ to specific areas out of which it cannot move. This accusation brings us to one of the major differences between the South African situation, and the Israeli one. Israel has been since its very founding involved in a continual military effort at its own self-defense. Since the start of the al-Aqsa intifada in Sep '00, this has included the insane use of homicide-bombers to kill and maim as many innocent Israeli civilians as possible. The Palestinian terrorists conducting this campaign have wide support from other terrorist groups and terror states in the area. The South African regime was never subject to anything close to the kind of military threats Israel has been subject to. Israel's limitation of Arab movements not only comes as a natural effort to prevent illegal entry into Israel, but fundamentally as part of its campaign against terror. The difficult economic and social situation of the Palestinians comes in good part because they have launched what the historian Joel Fishman calls a "people's war" - organized, controlled and financed by Arafat's terrorist groups - against Israel in which they are determined to destroy the Jewish state even if it means regressing socially and economically themselves.
The correct comparison between the South African oppressive regime should be made not only with Israel but with the Arab states and the PA itself. The Palestinians' repression of their own people, their denial of freedoms, their corruption, and the use of torture against anyone who opposes the regime, fit in well with the model of the white supremacism regime in S.A. It is the Arab states, and the potential future state represented by the PA itself, that do not tolerate and have persecuted minorities among them. They are the true non-democratic human rights violators of the Middle East.
But as usual, Windy Hurricane will keep employ lying as a psychological mechanism of defense do avoid letting the above truths permeating her rabidly anti-moral heart. She is a typical biased racist, after all.
Teacher: CT just can't help lying and lying and lying. It's a good thing most people are not afflicted with his constant self-deception. The truth will set everyone free! http://www.exposingisraeliapartheid.com
Teacher: In apartheid Israel, marraiges between Jews and non-Jews are not considered legal. And there are also laws that the imported slave-workers from the Philippines, etc. are not allowed to have sex with Israeli Jews.
CT is a LIAR.
CT: 2. In apartheid S.A. there was also the strict confining of blacks to specific native areas; in Israel non-Jews aren't confined to such regions or counties.
Teacher: In apartheid Israel inside the Green Line which are the offical borders, it has always been the case that 92% of the land is for use by JEWS ONLY, whereas the 20% of Israeli population that is non-Jewish are squeezed into ghettos on less than 8% of the land. CT is a LIAR.
CT: 3. In apartheid S.A. there were laws prohibiting the fraternization of whites and blacks; such laws don't exist in Israel.
Teacher: In apartheid Israel, non-Jews aren't allowed in Israeli Jewish schools. CT is a LIAR.
CT: 3. In apartheid S.A. a small minority of whites ruled over a far larger majority of blacks; in Israel there's a Jewish majority that's in power.
Teacher: In apartheid Israel, Jews are an artifically maintained "majority" due to constant, continual ethnic cleansing of non-Jews. CT is a LIAR.
CT: 4. In apartheid S.A. Blacks were denied voting rights, and any real participation in the political life of the country; this is not the case in Israel.
Teacher: In apartheid Israel, Palestinians are taxed without representation (which is tyranny). In apartheid Israel, not even Israeli Arabs can run on any platform other than Israel as a JEWISH state. In other words, if any Israeli citizen wanted to run for office in Israel on a platform calling for the transformation of apartheid Jewish Israel to a true secular multi-cultural democracy, they would NOT be allowed to run for office in Israel's apartheid, racist, ethnocentric JEWISH-run government. CT is a LIAR.
CT: 5. Apartheid S.A.'s governing system was based on racial supremacism; in Israel there are no laws which even consider the subject of racial preference. And Israel is the only state in the history of mankind to have made a major effort to bring a large group of black people (the Ethiopian Jews once called Falashas) to it in order to make them full citizens.
Teacher: Apartheid Israel has always been a racist, ethnocentric JEWISH supremacist state with NO constitution calling for completely equal rights for all, including non-Jews. CT is a LIAR. And Israel finally brought in the Ethiopian black Jews but still keeps them at the bottom of the society and throws away their blood during blood drives w/o even testing it for AIDS or anything because Israel is a racist Jewish state. CT is a LIAR.
CT: 6. Those like Windy Hurricane who call Israel an apartheid state base their accusation on an erroneous correspondence of whites in South Africa with Jews in Israel, and blacks in South Africa with Arabs in Israel. Their contention is that the same kinds of discrimination and bias that applied against blacks in South Africa, apply to Arabs in Israel. This accusation is absurd and factually incorrect. But Windy Wendy has no qualms lying anyway, and derives solace from what Desmond Tutu and others think.
Teacher: Wendy Campbell is competely right on target re: Israel is a racist, Jewish state. CT is a LIAR.
CT: 7. Since the Oslo "peace" Process agreements in 1993, over 90% of the disputed territories' Arabs are not under the official rule of Israel. They are instead part of the PA and its government. The political social and economic responsibility for the Palestinian Arabs lies with the PA regime.
Teacher: What a joke! Ha ha ha! If anyone believes one word of CT's statement above, I have some oceanfront property for you in Arizona to take a look at! CT is a loser LIAR!
CT: 8. Windy Hurricane may point out that Israel actually has control over the Palestinians in that it limits not only their entrance into Israel, but their free movement between different parts of the territory controlled by the PA. Windy will also say that like South Africa it confines the ‘oppressed population’ to specific areas out of which it cannot move. This accusation brings us to one of the major differences between the South African situation, and the Israeli one. Israel has been since its very founding involved in a continual military effort at its own self-defense. Since the start of the al-Aqsa intifada in Sep '00, this has included the insane use of homicide-bombers to kill and maim as many innocent Israeli civilians as possible. The Palestinian terrorists conducting this campaign have wide support from other terrorist groups and terror states in the area. The South African regime was never subject to anything close to the kind of military threats Israel has been subject to. Israel's limitation of Arab movements not only comes as a natural effort to prevent illegal entry into Israel, but fundamentally as part of its campaign against terror. The difficult economic and social situation of the Palestinians comes in good part because they have launched what the historian Joel Fishman calls a "people's war" - organized, controlled and financed by Arafat's terrorist groups - against Israel in which they are determined to destroy the Jewish state even if it means regressing socially and economically themselves.
The correct comparison between the South African oppressive regime should be made not only with Israel but with the Arab states and the PA itself. The Palestinians' repression of their own people, their denial of freedoms, their corruption, and the use of torture against anyone who opposes the regime, fit in well with the model of the white supremacism regime in S.A. It is the Arab states, and the potential future state represented by the PA itself, that do not tolerate and have persecuted minorities among them. They are the true non-democratic human rights violators of the Middle East.
But as usual, Windy Hurricane will keep employ lying as a psychological mechanism of defense do avoid letting the above truths permeating her rabidly anti-moral heart. She is a typical biased racist, after all.
Teacher: CT just can't help lying and lying and lying. It's a good thing most people are not afflicted with his constant self-deception. The truth will set everyone free! http://www.exposingisraeliapartheid.com
Wendy's initial essay was hidden the first time it appeared here, maybe a month or so ago, because she has again included a URL to a hate site -- in this case, Michael A. Hoffman's Holocaust denial site, "The Campaign for Real History."
If Wendy wonders why she's called an antisemite, maybe she should examine her own posts a little more closely.
@%<
If Wendy wonders why she's called an antisemite, maybe she should examine her own posts a little more closely.
@%<
The media in the US and Europe has a bias against Muslim culture that is much more deep rooted than being just support for Israel. Images of evil in Western culture have used Islamic imagery for hundred of years. In many ways its a more central part of European/US culture than antiSemitism and dates back to myths surrounding the clashes between Islamic civilization and Christian civilization in Eastern Europe, North Africa and Spain. While antiSemitism was religiously based during the Middle Ages and antiSemitism from that time mutated into modern conspiracy theories, antiMuslim hatred has rarely been analyzed in the same was as antiSemitism. One need go futher than Dante's Inferno to see Mohammed being nearly equated with Satan. There has been enough analysis of antiSemitism in Western culture that most people recognize the antiSemitism in the Merchant of Venice but its rather sad that there isn't equal rage about antiMuslim sentiments that are more central and deep rooted in Western culture (think of the traditional image of the devil with a facial shape and beard that appear quite similar to those of Muslim rulers at the time of the European-Islamic clash).
Look at:
Recalling al-Sadr's eyes: Dark, evil
"While focusing the lens of my camera into al-Sadr's face, one word came to mind when I zoomed in close on his eyes.Evil."
http://www.kansas.com/mld/eagle/news/local/8363247.htm
Nothing similar would be allowed in US papers using Jewish images to demonize Jews as evil, but the reason isnt that the media is biased towards Jews or Isreal, its that it never crosses people's minds that saying that Sadr's looks evil because of his "black clothing..black beard..dark eyes" and other features is playing on traditional images of evil in European culture that were created during the conflict with Islam hundreds of years ago (in many ways the way the article says Sadr looks evil is a tautology since Western culture defines evil to look like Sadr).
The antiMuslim sentiment in the media isnt racist as most of the Left accuses, its something a lot more deep rooted and more difficult to deal with. There is a similar tendency for people to not recognize antiSemitism and how traditional myths can take on modern forms with pseudological justifications blinding people to the real motivation for their beliefs. But, at least with antiSemitism there have been people looking into the biases for decades and antiSemitic expressions like "he jewed me" are less and less common. Zionist conspiracy theories must be ended but people should put an equal effort into dealing with antiIslamic views that are often so deep rooted in culture that they go unrecognized.
Look at:
Recalling al-Sadr's eyes: Dark, evil
"While focusing the lens of my camera into al-Sadr's face, one word came to mind when I zoomed in close on his eyes.Evil."
http://www.kansas.com/mld/eagle/news/local/8363247.htm
Nothing similar would be allowed in US papers using Jewish images to demonize Jews as evil, but the reason isnt that the media is biased towards Jews or Isreal, its that it never crosses people's minds that saying that Sadr's looks evil because of his "black clothing..black beard..dark eyes" and other features is playing on traditional images of evil in European culture that were created during the conflict with Islam hundreds of years ago (in many ways the way the article says Sadr looks evil is a tautology since Western culture defines evil to look like Sadr).
The antiMuslim sentiment in the media isnt racist as most of the Left accuses, its something a lot more deep rooted and more difficult to deal with. There is a similar tendency for people to not recognize antiSemitism and how traditional myths can take on modern forms with pseudological justifications blinding people to the real motivation for their beliefs. But, at least with antiSemitism there have been people looking into the biases for decades and antiSemitic expressions like "he jewed me" are less and less common. Zionist conspiracy theories must be ended but people should put an equal effort into dealing with antiIslamic views that are often so deep rooted in culture that they go unrecognized.
"One need go futher than Dante's Inferno to see Mohammed being nearly equated with Satan. There has been enough analysis of antiSemitism in Western culture that most people recognize the antiSemitism in the Merchant of Venice but its rather sad that there isn't equal rage about antiMuslim sentiments that are more central and deep rooted in Western culture"
This is a very intriguing thought. Thanks for pointing this out. One of the (admittedly many) names given the Devil is "Mahound," a corruption of "Muhammad," and appears that way in core Renaissance texts like "The Romance of the Rose." (This is why Gibreel's dream-prophet takes the name Mahound for himself in Salman Rushdie's _The Satanic Verses_ -- as a way to take the curse out of the name via backspin.)
@%<
This is a very intriguing thought. Thanks for pointing this out. One of the (admittedly many) names given the Devil is "Mahound," a corruption of "Muhammad," and appears that way in core Renaissance texts like "The Romance of the Rose." (This is why Gibreel's dream-prophet takes the name Mahound for himself in Salman Rushdie's _The Satanic Verses_ -- as a way to take the curse out of the name via backspin.)
@%<
gehrig lies lies lies, like all Zionists do do do
Th traditional antiSemitic myths (seen at least as far back as the Merchant of Venice) revolve around Jews being underhanded and pulling strings behind the scenes. The new left-wing Zionist conspiracy theories are very similar. The idea one sees in the more extremist views of Joe (with talk of dual citizenship) is also probably old, but reminds me more of the demonization of Jews as Communists during the red scares. Unfortunately fighting antiSemitism isnt as easy as pointing this out. People build up a logical framework based off real world examples to justify (even in their own minds) the origin of their various conspiracy theories. In the case of the latest left-wing trend towards conspiracy, I think a lot of it is driven by feedback. Arguments online tend to polarize into flamewars and suddenly a moderate view becomes an extreme view as both sides react to each other and push each other father apart. I would bet that Nessie had no real view on Palestinians just a few years ago and now he seems to be moving in a direction where a small evil group of Zionists have replaced a small evil group of Capitalists as the puppetmasters of all the world's problems. It started with a real valid concern about Palestinians living under an oppressive occupation but as black and white reductionist views are applied to a complicated problem, the plight of the Palestinians and the support by online right-wingers for this plight leads to a need to define the evil behind the plight as comming from some specific group. Evil Zionists must exist since problems must have evil people behind them (its a very Christian view in a way)
The right does the same thing, as do those assuming support for the Palestinians (or even a one state solution) equates to hatred for Jews. For many reading this site, Joe and Windy are not wingnuts but instead proof of the real ideas behind those marching for Palestinians (and most miss that the leaders of most proPalestine groups in the Bay Area are in fact Jewish).
The right does the same thing, as do those assuming support for the Palestinians (or even a one state solution) equates to hatred for Jews. For many reading this site, Joe and Windy are not wingnuts but instead proof of the real ideas behind those marching for Palestinians (and most miss that the leaders of most proPalestine groups in the Bay Area are in fact Jewish).
anonytroll: "gehrig lies lies lies, like all Zionists do do do"
Does your mommy know you're playing with her computer? Hoffman's been a Holocaust denier for decades, as well as a raging antisemite. Sorry if that disappoints you, but it's true.
interesting: "The new left-wing Zionist conspiracy theories are very similar."
For what it's worth, here's a long essay I wrote on the subject, and it starts on a very similar point to what you've just made.
http://www.ucimc.org/newswire/display_any/10810
There is a very interesting book by a guy named Joel Schumacher (I think) called _The Satanizing of the Jews_, which addresses the peculiar archetypal prejudice which has followed them for the last thousand years. One of the strange things about the antisemitic archetype is that it deals more with the Jews _collectively_ than with the characteristics of the individual Jew. And Schumacher argues that this is an extension of the theological idea of the Jews as the children of Satan -- faithful minions in a mystical, fantastically powerful, fantasically evil, fantastically corrosive and destructive and subversive conspiracy. It's certainly hard not to hear echos of that when Wendy talks about The Zionist Jews.
On the other hand, last week I watched my son play a new videogram -- I forget exactly what, some first-person shooter on an unknown planet -- and the scenario was that the planet had been taken over by an unnamed cult of fanatics that made terrorist attacks against civilians and thought it was glorious to die for their sacred cause. I asked my son what year the game was made -- and it was post 9/11 -- and I asked him if he understood what the implicit cultural reference was, even though they had been careful not to use any identifiably Moslem or Arabic names. He, fortunately, put it together, I'm happy to say, and he understood why I disapproved of it. But how many kids playing that video game wouldn't put that together?
@%<
Does your mommy know you're playing with her computer? Hoffman's been a Holocaust denier for decades, as well as a raging antisemite. Sorry if that disappoints you, but it's true.
interesting: "The new left-wing Zionist conspiracy theories are very similar."
For what it's worth, here's a long essay I wrote on the subject, and it starts on a very similar point to what you've just made.
http://www.ucimc.org/newswire/display_any/10810
There is a very interesting book by a guy named Joel Schumacher (I think) called _The Satanizing of the Jews_, which addresses the peculiar archetypal prejudice which has followed them for the last thousand years. One of the strange things about the antisemitic archetype is that it deals more with the Jews _collectively_ than with the characteristics of the individual Jew. And Schumacher argues that this is an extension of the theological idea of the Jews as the children of Satan -- faithful minions in a mystical, fantastically powerful, fantasically evil, fantastically corrosive and destructive and subversive conspiracy. It's certainly hard not to hear echos of that when Wendy talks about The Zionist Jews.
On the other hand, last week I watched my son play a new videogram -- I forget exactly what, some first-person shooter on an unknown planet -- and the scenario was that the planet had been taken over by an unnamed cult of fanatics that made terrorist attacks against civilians and thought it was glorious to die for their sacred cause. I asked my son what year the game was made -- and it was post 9/11 -- and I asked him if he understood what the implicit cultural reference was, even though they had been careful not to use any identifiably Moslem or Arabic names. He, fortunately, put it together, I'm happy to say, and he understood why I disapproved of it. But how many kids playing that video game wouldn't put that together?
@%<
Wendy,
Thanks for the good copy! It is refreshing to see someone balanced enough to be able to demonstrate the magnificent cultural/social heritage the world owes to the peoples of the Middle and Near East.
Keep up the good work, we look forward to hearing much more from you!
Thanks for the good copy! It is refreshing to see someone balanced enough to be able to demonstrate the magnificent cultural/social heritage the world owes to the peoples of the Middle and Near East.
Keep up the good work, we look forward to hearing much more from you!
While religious antiSemitism did equate Jews with Satan and the death of Christ, the conspiratorial view of Jews seen in Shakespeare or some antiZionist conspiracies isnt quite of the same feel. The conspiratorial view seems more similar to stereotypes of Italian Americans as being tied to organized crime (with even expressions like "he jewed me" reflecting a feeling of corruption and human frailty rather than real evilness).
Views of Muslims have a clear origin in the many wars European nations fought with Muslim countries and the fact that Islam was the only real force tha ever threatened Christianity in Europe (other invasions after the fall of the Romans were marked by conversion to Christianity rather than the other way around since the pagan religions of the invaders were too tied to group to be imposed on those who were conquered) One sees the Muslims as "the enemy" in "La Chanson de Roland", Dante and much early European literature.
Where does one see a similar level of antiSemitism? Jews were scapegoated during times of crisis and the corruption of rulers was pawned off on Jewish advisors (as even happens today) but while Judaism was equated with corruption in society, Islam was the enemy (almost antiChrist) that posed the strong external danger. This doesnt mean that Jews were treated better (there were fewer Muslims in Europe and there were powers capable of organizing to help the Muslim victims of the Spanish Inquistition whereas no outside power was organized to help the Jews). But I would say that while Islam has historically been equated with Satan (and fears of the antiChrist) in Europe, the view of Jews was slightly better with antiSemitism equating Jews with internal frailties.
Before the second Aliyah, its unclear to me if antiSemitism played any role in Islamic societies. While demonization of Jews and Muslims was central to many aspects of European culture, Jews and Christians play a much lesser role in Islamic mythologies. Is the current rabid antiSemitism one sees in most Islamic societies solely tied to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with the themes borrowed from European anti-Semitism? I think understanding the roots of Middle Eastern antiSemitism is central to solving the Palestinian conflict since dealing with a recent hatred tied to recent events is much less difficult than dealing with a hatred built deep into the fabric of a culture (and antiSemitism and fear of antiSemitism are the two forces preventing a real peace agreement between Palestinians and Israelis). The article linked to above about Sadr makes me worry about how antiIslamic feeling in the US can be dealt with. People's gut reactions ("he looks evil") is really based on images and messages embedded in our culture which were not conciously put there but instead based off European conflicts 500 years ago. How do you convince people to ignore their immediate reactions like this when people interpret illogical gut feelings as strong or religious belief rather than as culturally derived bigotry. If the new antiJewish myths in the Middle East are in fact recent than when the conflict that lead to the creation of the myths goes away, perhaps the hatred will too. Unlike Europe there are not hundreds of years of novels and folk stories that have to be cleansed of the hatred if it is to be not taught to a new generation.
Views of Muslims have a clear origin in the many wars European nations fought with Muslim countries and the fact that Islam was the only real force tha ever threatened Christianity in Europe (other invasions after the fall of the Romans were marked by conversion to Christianity rather than the other way around since the pagan religions of the invaders were too tied to group to be imposed on those who were conquered) One sees the Muslims as "the enemy" in "La Chanson de Roland", Dante and much early European literature.
Where does one see a similar level of antiSemitism? Jews were scapegoated during times of crisis and the corruption of rulers was pawned off on Jewish advisors (as even happens today) but while Judaism was equated with corruption in society, Islam was the enemy (almost antiChrist) that posed the strong external danger. This doesnt mean that Jews were treated better (there were fewer Muslims in Europe and there were powers capable of organizing to help the Muslim victims of the Spanish Inquistition whereas no outside power was organized to help the Jews). But I would say that while Islam has historically been equated with Satan (and fears of the antiChrist) in Europe, the view of Jews was slightly better with antiSemitism equating Jews with internal frailties.
Before the second Aliyah, its unclear to me if antiSemitism played any role in Islamic societies. While demonization of Jews and Muslims was central to many aspects of European culture, Jews and Christians play a much lesser role in Islamic mythologies. Is the current rabid antiSemitism one sees in most Islamic societies solely tied to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with the themes borrowed from European anti-Semitism? I think understanding the roots of Middle Eastern antiSemitism is central to solving the Palestinian conflict since dealing with a recent hatred tied to recent events is much less difficult than dealing with a hatred built deep into the fabric of a culture (and antiSemitism and fear of antiSemitism are the two forces preventing a real peace agreement between Palestinians and Israelis). The article linked to above about Sadr makes me worry about how antiIslamic feeling in the US can be dealt with. People's gut reactions ("he looks evil") is really based on images and messages embedded in our culture which were not conciously put there but instead based off European conflicts 500 years ago. How do you convince people to ignore their immediate reactions like this when people interpret illogical gut feelings as strong or religious belief rather than as culturally derived bigotry. If the new antiJewish myths in the Middle East are in fact recent than when the conflict that lead to the creation of the myths goes away, perhaps the hatred will too. Unlike Europe there are not hundreds of years of novels and folk stories that have to be cleansed of the hatred if it is to be not taught to a new generation.
1. In apartheid S.A. there were laws forbidding marriage between white and black; in Israel there are no such laws. There are mixed Jew- non-Jew married couples in Israel.
The windy Campbell responds:
>>>"In apartheid Israel, marraiges between Jews and non-Jews are not considered legal."<<<
...and is lying. I know a few such couples personally.
>>>"And there are also laws that the imported slave-workers from the Philippines, etc. are not allowed to have sex with Israeli Jews. CT is a LIAR. "<<<
Windy lies again (what else is new?)... I've heard of one Philippina who has had sex with at least one Jew and had never thought to do it in a clandestine manner. If such an act was verboten, she wouldn't have dared to have her story reported in Israeli media.
2. In apartheid S.A. there was also the strict confining of blacks to specific native areas; in Israel non-Jews aren't confined to such regions or counties.
Windy "teacher":
>>>"In apartheid Israel inside the Green Line which are the offical borders, it has always been the case that 92% of the land is for use by JEWS ONLY,"<<<
Windy Hurricane lies yet more (no novelty...). Most of the land in Israel (some 92%) is government-owned, and it is equally available to all Israelis, whether Jewish or Arab. JNF (Jewish National Fund) land, even when managed by the Israeli government, is restricted by the formal charter of the JNF. The purpose of the JNF was to purchase land for the settlement of Jews, and this has been interpreted to mean that JNF land should not be leased, at least on a long-term basis, to non-Jews. The agreement that placed the JNF land under government administration incorporates the restriction.
~~In practice, however, JNF land has been leased to Arab citizens of Israel, both for short-term and long-term use such as leases on a yearly basis to Bedouins for use as pasture. In other cases, JNF land has been traded for other, unrestricted, land so it can be leased to Arabs.~~
So much for Windy Hurricane's lie.
>>>"the 20% of Israeli population that is non-Jewish are squeezed into ghettos on less than 8% of the land. CT is a LIAR. "<<<
Hardly. I personally have seen big Arab villages (like Majd al-Kurum, Deir al-Asad, Rame, Bi'ne, Nakhf, Sakhnin, 'Arrabe) and towns (like Nazareth). There's even an Arab city - Umm al-Fakhm. These *aren't* ghettos! For more, see http://www.arabhra.org/article26/arabtowns.htm.
3. In apartheid S.A. there were laws prohibiting the fraternization of whites and blacks; such laws don't exist in Israel.
>>>"Teacher: In apartheid Israel, non-Jews aren't allowed in Israeli Jewish schools. CT is a LIAR. "<<<
What...??!! Windy might have been stoned when she wrote this. What does her reply have to do with what I stated?? A starwman is not a rebuttal.
4. In apartheid S.A. a small minority of whites ruled over a far larger majority of blacks; in Israel there's a Jewish majority that's in power.
>>>"Teacher: In apartheid Israel, Jews are an blah blah blah..."<<<
Windy has yet to learn I'm not concerned with her excuses when I state facts.
5. In apartheid S.A. Blacks were denied voting rights, and any real participation in the political life of the country; this is not the case in Israel.
>>>>"Teacher: In apartheid Israel, Palestinians are taxed without representation (which is tyranny)."<<<
Yet another obvious Windy lie. There are Arab parties in the Knesset. Israel's proportional representation with a 2% threshold system allows all Arabs who don't want to vote for Zionist parties to be represented with sectarian parties of their own.
>>>" In apartheid Israel, not even Israeli Arabs can run on any platform other than Israel as a JEWISH state."<<<
*Both* Arabs and Jews aren't allowed to run on a ticket of a party that negates Israel's existence as both a democratic *and* Jewish state. In practice, however, at least some Arab members of Knesset issue multiple statements and perform many actions - some of which border on the illegal or are even flatout illegal - that run counter to their pre-election campaign pledge not to be expressly against Israel as a Jewish state.
>>>" In other words, if any Israeli citizen wanted to run for office in Israel on a platform calling for the transformation of apartheid Jewish Israel to a true secular multi-cultural democracy, they would NOT be allowed to run for office in Israel's apartheid, racist, ethnocentric JEWISH-run government. CT is a LIAR."<<<
The hate consumed Windy Wendy is parroting yet another lie. In the 1980s, for example, the Israeli communist party openly advocated in its televised pre-elections propaganda broadcasts a secular multi-cultural Israel as per their take on the democratic concept.
6. Apartheid S.A.'s governing system was based on racial supremacism; in Israel there are no laws which even consider the subject of racial preference. And Israel is the only state in the history of mankind to have made a major effort to bring a large group of black people (the Ethiopian Jews once called Falashas) to it in order to make them full citizens.
>>>"Blah blah blah blah blah blah. And Israel finally brought in the Ethiopian black Jews but still keeps them at the bottom of the society"<<<
That's still another Windy lie. It's the Bedouin Arabs who are at the bottom of society in Israel. Other Arabs fair better than their Bedouin counterparts, and Ethiopian Jews fair even better. Their social status has improved since the first mass immigration in '84. I know a few Ethiopian Jews who have worked in sophisticated industries, like high tech.
>>>"and [Israel] throws away their [Ethiopian Jewish] blood during blood drives w/o even testing it for AIDS or anything blah blah."<<<
Since this scandal exploded on Jan 24 '96, that shameful practice has been discontinued. Then health minister Ephraim Sneh ordered blood banks to stop discarding Ethiopian blood that very year. Israeli blood banks have been ordered to stop the practice of wholesale dumping of blood donated by Ethiopian Jews and were given new guidelines to screen all blood donors.
7. Those like Windy Hurricane who call Israel an apartheid state base their accusation on an erroneous correspondence of whites in South Africa with Jews in Israel, and blacks in South Africa with Arabs in Israel. Their contention is that the same kinds of discrimination and bias that applied against blacks in South Africa, apply to Arabs in Israel. This accusation is absurd and factually incorrect. But Windy Wendy has no qualms lying anyway, and derives solace from what Desmond Tutu and others think.
>>>"Teacher: Wendy Campbell is competely right on target re: Israel is a racist, Jewish state. CT is a LIAR. "<<<
No, Windy Hurricane is barely on target. Israel has some racist practices like most other states. CT is a truth teller; Windy is an avowed liar.
8. Since the Oslo "peace" Process agreements in '93, over 90% of the disputed territories' Arabs are not under the official rule of Israel. They are instead part of the PA and its government. The political social and economic responsibility for the Palestinian Arabs lies with the PA regime.
Teacher: What a joke! Ha ha ha! If anyone believes one word of CT's statement above, I have some oceanfront property for you in Arizona to take a look at! CT is a loser LIAR!"<<<
The facts speak for themselves. People don't have to take my word for it, they can check my contention out. Then the'yll realize what a hopeless clown Windy is.
>>>"Teacher: CT just can't help lying blah blah blah blah..."<<<
The truth is Windy Huricane's bondage. I only retort to her garbage for the heck of it.
The windy Campbell responds:
>>>"In apartheid Israel, marraiges between Jews and non-Jews are not considered legal."<<<
...and is lying. I know a few such couples personally.
>>>"And there are also laws that the imported slave-workers from the Philippines, etc. are not allowed to have sex with Israeli Jews. CT is a LIAR. "<<<
Windy lies again (what else is new?)... I've heard of one Philippina who has had sex with at least one Jew and had never thought to do it in a clandestine manner. If such an act was verboten, she wouldn't have dared to have her story reported in Israeli media.
2. In apartheid S.A. there was also the strict confining of blacks to specific native areas; in Israel non-Jews aren't confined to such regions or counties.
Windy "teacher":
>>>"In apartheid Israel inside the Green Line which are the offical borders, it has always been the case that 92% of the land is for use by JEWS ONLY,"<<<
Windy Hurricane lies yet more (no novelty...). Most of the land in Israel (some 92%) is government-owned, and it is equally available to all Israelis, whether Jewish or Arab. JNF (Jewish National Fund) land, even when managed by the Israeli government, is restricted by the formal charter of the JNF. The purpose of the JNF was to purchase land for the settlement of Jews, and this has been interpreted to mean that JNF land should not be leased, at least on a long-term basis, to non-Jews. The agreement that placed the JNF land under government administration incorporates the restriction.
~~In practice, however, JNF land has been leased to Arab citizens of Israel, both for short-term and long-term use such as leases on a yearly basis to Bedouins for use as pasture. In other cases, JNF land has been traded for other, unrestricted, land so it can be leased to Arabs.~~
So much for Windy Hurricane's lie.
>>>"the 20% of Israeli population that is non-Jewish are squeezed into ghettos on less than 8% of the land. CT is a LIAR. "<<<
Hardly. I personally have seen big Arab villages (like Majd al-Kurum, Deir al-Asad, Rame, Bi'ne, Nakhf, Sakhnin, 'Arrabe) and towns (like Nazareth). There's even an Arab city - Umm al-Fakhm. These *aren't* ghettos! For more, see http://www.arabhra.org/article26/arabtowns.htm.
3. In apartheid S.A. there were laws prohibiting the fraternization of whites and blacks; such laws don't exist in Israel.
>>>"Teacher: In apartheid Israel, non-Jews aren't allowed in Israeli Jewish schools. CT is a LIAR. "<<<
What...??!! Windy might have been stoned when she wrote this. What does her reply have to do with what I stated?? A starwman is not a rebuttal.
4. In apartheid S.A. a small minority of whites ruled over a far larger majority of blacks; in Israel there's a Jewish majority that's in power.
>>>"Teacher: In apartheid Israel, Jews are an blah blah blah..."<<<
Windy has yet to learn I'm not concerned with her excuses when I state facts.
5. In apartheid S.A. Blacks were denied voting rights, and any real participation in the political life of the country; this is not the case in Israel.
>>>>"Teacher: In apartheid Israel, Palestinians are taxed without representation (which is tyranny)."<<<
Yet another obvious Windy lie. There are Arab parties in the Knesset. Israel's proportional representation with a 2% threshold system allows all Arabs who don't want to vote for Zionist parties to be represented with sectarian parties of their own.
>>>" In apartheid Israel, not even Israeli Arabs can run on any platform other than Israel as a JEWISH state."<<<
*Both* Arabs and Jews aren't allowed to run on a ticket of a party that negates Israel's existence as both a democratic *and* Jewish state. In practice, however, at least some Arab members of Knesset issue multiple statements and perform many actions - some of which border on the illegal or are even flatout illegal - that run counter to their pre-election campaign pledge not to be expressly against Israel as a Jewish state.
>>>" In other words, if any Israeli citizen wanted to run for office in Israel on a platform calling for the transformation of apartheid Jewish Israel to a true secular multi-cultural democracy, they would NOT be allowed to run for office in Israel's apartheid, racist, ethnocentric JEWISH-run government. CT is a LIAR."<<<
The hate consumed Windy Wendy is parroting yet another lie. In the 1980s, for example, the Israeli communist party openly advocated in its televised pre-elections propaganda broadcasts a secular multi-cultural Israel as per their take on the democratic concept.
6. Apartheid S.A.'s governing system was based on racial supremacism; in Israel there are no laws which even consider the subject of racial preference. And Israel is the only state in the history of mankind to have made a major effort to bring a large group of black people (the Ethiopian Jews once called Falashas) to it in order to make them full citizens.
>>>"Blah blah blah blah blah blah. And Israel finally brought in the Ethiopian black Jews but still keeps them at the bottom of the society"<<<
That's still another Windy lie. It's the Bedouin Arabs who are at the bottom of society in Israel. Other Arabs fair better than their Bedouin counterparts, and Ethiopian Jews fair even better. Their social status has improved since the first mass immigration in '84. I know a few Ethiopian Jews who have worked in sophisticated industries, like high tech.
>>>"and [Israel] throws away their [Ethiopian Jewish] blood during blood drives w/o even testing it for AIDS or anything blah blah."<<<
Since this scandal exploded on Jan 24 '96, that shameful practice has been discontinued. Then health minister Ephraim Sneh ordered blood banks to stop discarding Ethiopian blood that very year. Israeli blood banks have been ordered to stop the practice of wholesale dumping of blood donated by Ethiopian Jews and were given new guidelines to screen all blood donors.
7. Those like Windy Hurricane who call Israel an apartheid state base their accusation on an erroneous correspondence of whites in South Africa with Jews in Israel, and blacks in South Africa with Arabs in Israel. Their contention is that the same kinds of discrimination and bias that applied against blacks in South Africa, apply to Arabs in Israel. This accusation is absurd and factually incorrect. But Windy Wendy has no qualms lying anyway, and derives solace from what Desmond Tutu and others think.
>>>"Teacher: Wendy Campbell is competely right on target re: Israel is a racist, Jewish state. CT is a LIAR. "<<<
No, Windy Hurricane is barely on target. Israel has some racist practices like most other states. CT is a truth teller; Windy is an avowed liar.
8. Since the Oslo "peace" Process agreements in '93, over 90% of the disputed territories' Arabs are not under the official rule of Israel. They are instead part of the PA and its government. The political social and economic responsibility for the Palestinian Arabs lies with the PA regime.
Teacher: What a joke! Ha ha ha! If anyone believes one word of CT's statement above, I have some oceanfront property for you in Arizona to take a look at! CT is a loser LIAR!"<<<
The facts speak for themselves. People don't have to take my word for it, they can check my contention out. Then the'yll realize what a hopeless clown Windy is.
>>>"Teacher: CT just can't help lying blah blah blah blah..."<<<
The truth is Windy Huricane's bondage. I only retort to her garbage for the heck of it.
Anti-Semitism certainly did play a role in Muslim societies prior to the 20th century. See for example:
1. http://www.campusprogram.com/reference/en/wikipedia/i/is/islam_and_anti_semitism.html .
2. Toronto based Muslim Canadian feminist, lesbian, self described observant Muslim and author of Canadian best seller "The Trouble With Islam: A Wake Up Call for Honesty and Change", Irshad Manji, has declared that an Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement would have little effect in defusing Muslim anti-semitism, noting that even during the medieval golden age of Islam, Jews and Christians were forced to practice self-abasing behavior in the presence of Muslims. "We cannot point to the 'ill-conceived creation of Israel' as the root of our anti-Semitism," Manji said. "It emerged hundreds of years before the Jewish state was a gleam in anyone's eye." See http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=11066 .
Muhammad himself initiated early in the 7th century violent hostile actions against Jews in the Arabian peninsula once it became evident to him they refused to accept his new faith as a natural continuation of Judaism. For more on hostile treatment of Jews in pre-20th century Muslim societies, see http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Jews_in_Arab_lands_(gen).html (pay attention to the dates).
1. http://www.campusprogram.com/reference/en/wikipedia/i/is/islam_and_anti_semitism.html .
2. Toronto based Muslim Canadian feminist, lesbian, self described observant Muslim and author of Canadian best seller "The Trouble With Islam: A Wake Up Call for Honesty and Change", Irshad Manji, has declared that an Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement would have little effect in defusing Muslim anti-semitism, noting that even during the medieval golden age of Islam, Jews and Christians were forced to practice self-abasing behavior in the presence of Muslims. "We cannot point to the 'ill-conceived creation of Israel' as the root of our anti-Semitism," Manji said. "It emerged hundreds of years before the Jewish state was a gleam in anyone's eye." See http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=11066 .
Muhammad himself initiated early in the 7th century violent hostile actions against Jews in the Arabian peninsula once it became evident to him they refused to accept his new faith as a natural continuation of Judaism. For more on hostile treatment of Jews in pre-20th century Muslim societies, see http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Jews_in_Arab_lands_(gen).html (pay attention to the dates).
one very specific bunch of Jews on one very specific occasion. On other occassions, Jews (as well as pagans) fought at his side against common enemies.
People who fail to distinguish between one Jew and another are racists. Whether they are Jews themselves, or not, is irrelevant. Either way, they are racists.
On SF-IMC, racists like Wendy, Gehrig and Critical Thinker are not allowed to publish their sick, evil propaganda. On SF-IMC, this entire thread would have been hidden from the very first post.
Why?
See:
http://www.sfimc.net/news/2004/06/1695815_comment.php#1697521
People who fail to distinguish between one Jew and another are racists. Whether they are Jews themselves, or not, is irrelevant. Either way, they are racists.
On SF-IMC, racists like Wendy, Gehrig and Critical Thinker are not allowed to publish their sick, evil propaganda. On SF-IMC, this entire thread would have been hidden from the very first post.
Why?
See:
http://www.sfimc.net/news/2004/06/1695815_comment.php#1697521
Read the passages below the header "From "The Life of Muhammad" on http://www.hraic.org/the_jews_and_prophet_muhammad.html .
>>>"one very specific bunch of Jews on one very specific occasion. On other occassions, Jews (as well as pagans) fought at his side against common enemies.
People who fail to distinguish between one Jew and another are racists. Whether they are Jews themselves, or not, is irrelevant. Either way, they are racists."<<<
Nessie is pulling his dishonest shit yet again in order to allow himself to accuse me yet again of racism. This is *really* boring...
Who besides nessie gives a hoot for what's happening in that cesspit he runs? Who wants to go to his sandbox to read lopsided, komisar-approved material?
>>>"one very specific bunch of Jews on one very specific occasion. On other occassions, Jews (as well as pagans) fought at his side against common enemies.
People who fail to distinguish between one Jew and another are racists. Whether they are Jews themselves, or not, is irrelevant. Either way, they are racists."<<<
Nessie is pulling his dishonest shit yet again in order to allow himself to accuse me yet again of racism. This is *really* boring...
Who besides nessie gives a hoot for what's happening in that cesspit he runs? Who wants to go to his sandbox to read lopsided, komisar-approved material?
Sure Islam wasnt exactly supportive of other religions at all periods of time and one can find examples of periods in which Jews were attacked for religious or political reasons. But, Islam was more tollerant than most religions for much of its history. During the first Arab conquests (the Abbasids) people were not allowed to convert to Islam since that was seen as a threat to the power of Arabs in the conquered socities. It ws hundreds of years after the Arab conquests before regions like Syria even became majority Muslim and while minority religions were not treated equal they were not treated as they would have been in Europe (where minority religions were virtually exterminated at various points) "People of the book" is a positive term that puts Christians and Jews in a higher place in Islamic thought that those who worship multiple gods (or idols) It would be much easier for a conflict between Muslims and Hindus to take the form of a conflict rooted in Islamic myths than a conflict between Muslims and Jews (luckilly Deobandi Islam is very recent in the region and the Suffi form of Islam that reached India before that included enough preIslamic elements like Saint worship that the Moghul conquest of India didnt involve much religious conflict and even allowed the birth of syncretic religions like Sikhism).
Is the current antiSemitism in the Middle East that revolves around sneaky Zionists and the like a product of the local culture or a product of European culture. The current myths in the Middle East seem to be a direct product of Henry Ford promoting Russian antiSemitism through the mass production of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Did this play to already existing view or did it mainly catch on once the conflict with Israel started? Aside the European antiSemitism being used to create myths around a relatively recent conflict, the only additional factor I can see would by cultural memories of the Crusades being used to shape people's views.
Views about Arabs and Muslims in Israel seem like they could be a product of European antiIslamic mythologies. The idea of getting overrun by an Islamic culture had hundreds of years of wars to get firmly embedded into European thought. There is also an element of paternalistic colonialism in Israeli views towards Arabs with the technological advances imported from Europe being used to create a view that Arabs are lazy or are poorer than Jews in Israel due to cultural rather than historical factors.
Unlike European myths about Muslims and Jews, the hatreds between Isrealis and Arabs seems to be in it modern form a result of the conflict. Israelis creates myths that allow people to look down on Palestinians but the myths were created to justify a recent turn of events. Likewise the antiSemitism one sees among some Palestinians is a product of the conflict not a cause of it.
Just because muths are used to justify a conflict doesnt mean that the underlying reasons for a conflict are not valid. Views on the US occupation of Iraq tie in to myths about the Crusades as well as British myths adopted to explain British colonialism. During WWI the US army openly tried to build hatred for the Germans on myths about the Huns (who were not even a Germanic people). WWI wasnt a result of myths about Huns and US involvement wasnt either, but cultural memories of past conflicts percolate through cultures and can help drive or be used to justify current conflicts. Even the mainstream media likes to present the Arab-Israeli conflict as a product of such ancient hatreds. But in this case, its not. Views about Christians were influences by the Crusades but until Israel was created Jews were barely thought about and didnt play much of a role in the cultures of the region.
Is the current antiSemitism in the Middle East that revolves around sneaky Zionists and the like a product of the local culture or a product of European culture. The current myths in the Middle East seem to be a direct product of Henry Ford promoting Russian antiSemitism through the mass production of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Did this play to already existing view or did it mainly catch on once the conflict with Israel started? Aside the European antiSemitism being used to create myths around a relatively recent conflict, the only additional factor I can see would by cultural memories of the Crusades being used to shape people's views.
Views about Arabs and Muslims in Israel seem like they could be a product of European antiIslamic mythologies. The idea of getting overrun by an Islamic culture had hundreds of years of wars to get firmly embedded into European thought. There is also an element of paternalistic colonialism in Israeli views towards Arabs with the technological advances imported from Europe being used to create a view that Arabs are lazy or are poorer than Jews in Israel due to cultural rather than historical factors.
Unlike European myths about Muslims and Jews, the hatreds between Isrealis and Arabs seems to be in it modern form a result of the conflict. Israelis creates myths that allow people to look down on Palestinians but the myths were created to justify a recent turn of events. Likewise the antiSemitism one sees among some Palestinians is a product of the conflict not a cause of it.
Just because muths are used to justify a conflict doesnt mean that the underlying reasons for a conflict are not valid. Views on the US occupation of Iraq tie in to myths about the Crusades as well as British myths adopted to explain British colonialism. During WWI the US army openly tried to build hatred for the Germans on myths about the Huns (who were not even a Germanic people). WWI wasnt a result of myths about Huns and US involvement wasnt either, but cultural memories of past conflicts percolate through cultures and can help drive or be used to justify current conflicts. Even the mainstream media likes to present the Arab-Israeli conflict as a product of such ancient hatreds. But in this case, its not. Views about Christians were influences by the Crusades but until Israel was created Jews were barely thought about and didnt play much of a role in the cultures of the region.
Wendy, isn't hanging out with Nazis fun? Hey, did they take you on any raids where they wipe out Palestinians? Did you get to take any pictures of the Lebanese being beaten in the streets while protesting the ILLEGAL OCCUPATION of their country by your Baathist hosts?
What's that you say? Jews, Israel, Zionists....? Oh, OK thanks for playing...
What's that you say? Jews, Israel, Zionists....? Oh, OK thanks for playing...
The issue of Muslim anti-Semitism is sufficiently substantial to place it beyond mere attempts by individuals to fish for certain examples of historical occurences and incidents of Muslim hostility, intolerance and violence toward Jews.
Emmm, most religions throughout history weren't monotheistic; as a rule, polytheistic creeds have been more tolerant than Islam to other creeds and their adherents.
The first Arab conquerers were the 4 "impeccable" successors of Muhammad (Califs) that ruled 632-661, followed by the Umayid dynasty of Califs (611-750). It was during the Umayid period that conversions to Islam weren't very welcome.
Minority religions other than "People of the Book" were treated very harshly. If certain ancient (pagan) religions weren't exterminated by Muslims, then why haven't they survived the period(s) of Muslim conquest? Notice that the number of followers of other creeds was utterly decimated, like the Copts, the Assyrians, etc.
Don't forget that "People of the Book" were always 2nd-class citizens in Muslim societies. They were obliged to pay a tax in return for being exempted from conversion to Islam. I've already shown that that classification hasn't granted Jews automatic protection from unwarranted hostility and violence, and that Jews were subjected to violent treatment on multiple occasions.
I don't discount the impact the Crusades have had on Mideastern Muslim minds vis-a-vis actions undertaken by Jews in the Land of Israel that were fueled by Zionist convictions; yet I maintain that once you eliminate such factors as the Crusades and European anti-Semitism, you find there still exists a core, or a bottom layer if you will, of Islamic anti-Semitism taking its cues from the Quran, other early Muslim religious texts and writings of midieval Muslim scholars.
Some negative notions of Israeli Jews concerning Muslims stem out of negative experiences of Jews who had lived under Muslim rule. After all, about 40%-50% of Israeli Jews are immigrants or descendants of immigrants from Muslim lands in the Mideast and beyond (let alone the non-Ashkenazim who lived in the Holy Land itself under Muslim rule).
>>>"...the antiSemitism one sees among some Palestinians is a product of the conflict not a cause of it. "<<<
I could agree to this contention in theory. But which Palestinians haven't ever been prone to PLO propaganda which has anti-Semitism embedded in it? Perhaps a pretty small number of Palestinians in some Western countries that somehow have never been exposed to anti-Semitic propaganda. In any rate, these people are in the minority. My observations lead me to conclude that the anti-Semitism among most Palestinians is a cause of the conflict, not vice versa.
>>>"Just because myths are used to justify a conflict doesn't mean that the underlying reasons for a conflict are not valid."<<<
I second that.
>>>"Even the mainstream media likes to present the Arab-Israeli conflict as a product of such ancient hatreds. But in this case, its not."<<<
Sorry, I resolutely disagree. I've already provided sufficient evidence to refute your assertion. Your claim flies in the face of solid historical evidence, therefore it doesn't hold water.
>>>" Views about Christians were influenced by the Crusades but until Israel was created Jews were barely thought about and didnt play much of a role in the cultures of the region."<<<
But the nefarious anti-Semitic images Muslims adopted during the Middle Ages had played a crucial role in cementing the perpetuation of the less-than-benign treatment Jews have been subjected to throughout the Middle East.
Emmm, most religions throughout history weren't monotheistic; as a rule, polytheistic creeds have been more tolerant than Islam to other creeds and their adherents.
The first Arab conquerers were the 4 "impeccable" successors of Muhammad (Califs) that ruled 632-661, followed by the Umayid dynasty of Califs (611-750). It was during the Umayid period that conversions to Islam weren't very welcome.
Minority religions other than "People of the Book" were treated very harshly. If certain ancient (pagan) religions weren't exterminated by Muslims, then why haven't they survived the period(s) of Muslim conquest? Notice that the number of followers of other creeds was utterly decimated, like the Copts, the Assyrians, etc.
Don't forget that "People of the Book" were always 2nd-class citizens in Muslim societies. They were obliged to pay a tax in return for being exempted from conversion to Islam. I've already shown that that classification hasn't granted Jews automatic protection from unwarranted hostility and violence, and that Jews were subjected to violent treatment on multiple occasions.
I don't discount the impact the Crusades have had on Mideastern Muslim minds vis-a-vis actions undertaken by Jews in the Land of Israel that were fueled by Zionist convictions; yet I maintain that once you eliminate such factors as the Crusades and European anti-Semitism, you find there still exists a core, or a bottom layer if you will, of Islamic anti-Semitism taking its cues from the Quran, other early Muslim religious texts and writings of midieval Muslim scholars.
Some negative notions of Israeli Jews concerning Muslims stem out of negative experiences of Jews who had lived under Muslim rule. After all, about 40%-50% of Israeli Jews are immigrants or descendants of immigrants from Muslim lands in the Mideast and beyond (let alone the non-Ashkenazim who lived in the Holy Land itself under Muslim rule).
>>>"...the antiSemitism one sees among some Palestinians is a product of the conflict not a cause of it. "<<<
I could agree to this contention in theory. But which Palestinians haven't ever been prone to PLO propaganda which has anti-Semitism embedded in it? Perhaps a pretty small number of Palestinians in some Western countries that somehow have never been exposed to anti-Semitic propaganda. In any rate, these people are in the minority. My observations lead me to conclude that the anti-Semitism among most Palestinians is a cause of the conflict, not vice versa.
>>>"Just because myths are used to justify a conflict doesn't mean that the underlying reasons for a conflict are not valid."<<<
I second that.
>>>"Even the mainstream media likes to present the Arab-Israeli conflict as a product of such ancient hatreds. But in this case, its not."<<<
Sorry, I resolutely disagree. I've already provided sufficient evidence to refute your assertion. Your claim flies in the face of solid historical evidence, therefore it doesn't hold water.
>>>" Views about Christians were influenced by the Crusades but until Israel was created Jews were barely thought about and didnt play much of a role in the cultures of the region."<<<
But the nefarious anti-Semitic images Muslims adopted during the Middle Ages had played a crucial role in cementing the perpetuation of the less-than-benign treatment Jews have been subjected to throughout the Middle East.
The issue of Muslim anti-Semitism is sufficiently substantial to place it beyond mere attempts by individuals to fish for certain examples of historical occurrences and incidents of Muslim hostility, intolerance and violence toward Jews.
Emmm, most religions throughout history weren't monotheistic; as a rule, polytheistic creeds have been more tolerant than Islam to other creeds and their adherents.
The first Arab conquerors were the 4 "impeccable" successors of Muhammad (Califs) that ruled 632-661, followed by the Umayid dynasty of Califs (611-750). It was during the Umayid period that conversions to Islam weren't very welcome.
Minority religions other than "People of the Book" were treated very harshly. If certain ancient (pagan) religions weren't exterminated by Muslims, then why haven't they survived the period(s) of Muslim conquest? Notice that the number of followers of other creeds was utterly decimated, like the Copts, the Assyrians, etc.
Don't forget that "People of the Book" were always 2nd-class citizens in Muslim societies. They were obliged to pay a tax in return for being exempted from conversion to Islam. I've already shown that that classification hasn't granted Jews automatic protection from unwarranted hostility and violence, and that Jews were subjected to violent treatment on multiple occasions.
I don't discount the impact the Crusades have had on Mideastern Muslim minds vis-a-vis actions undertaken by Jews in the Land of Israel that were fueled by Zinist convictions; yet I maintain that once you eliminate such factors as the Crusades and European anti-Semitism, you find there still exists a core, or a bottom layer if you will, of Islamic anti-Semitism taking its cues from the Quran, other early Muslim religious texts and writings of midieval Muslim scholars.
Some negative notions of Israeli Jews concerning Muslims stem out of negative experiences of Jews who had lived under Muslim rule. After all, about 40%-50% of Israeli Jews are immigrants or descendants of immigrants from Muslim lands in the Mideast and beyond (let alone the non-Ashkenazim who lived in the Holy Land itself under Muslim rule).
>>>"...the antiSemitism one sees among some Palestinians is a product of the conflict not a cause of it. "<<<
I could agree to this contention in theory. But which Palestinians haven't ever been prone to PLO propaganda which has anti-Semitism embedded in it? Perhaps a pretty small number of Palestininas in some Western countries that somehow have never been exposed to anti-SEmitic propaganda. In any rate, these people are in the minority. My observations lead me to conclude that the anti-Semitism among most Palestinians is a cause of the conflict, not vice versa.
>>>"Just because myths are used to justify a conflict doesn't mean that the underlying reasons for a conflict are not valid."<<<
I second that.
>>>"Even the mainstream media likes to present the Arab-Israeli conflict as a product of such ancient hatreds. But in this case, its not."<<<
Sorry, I resolutely disagree. I've already provided sufficient evidence to refute your assertion. Your claim flies in the face of solid historical evidence, therefore it doesn't hold water.
>>>" Views about Christians were influenced by the Crusades but until Israel was created Jews were barely thought about and didnt play much of a role in the cultures of the region."<<<
But the nefarious anti-Semitic images Muslims adopted during the Middle Ages had played a crucial role in cementing the perpetuation of the less-than-benign treatment Jews have been subjected to throughout the Middle East.
Emmm, most religions throughout history weren't monotheistic; as a rule, polytheistic creeds have been more tolerant than Islam to other creeds and their adherents.
The first Arab conquerors were the 4 "impeccable" successors of Muhammad (Califs) that ruled 632-661, followed by the Umayid dynasty of Califs (611-750). It was during the Umayid period that conversions to Islam weren't very welcome.
Minority religions other than "People of the Book" were treated very harshly. If certain ancient (pagan) religions weren't exterminated by Muslims, then why haven't they survived the period(s) of Muslim conquest? Notice that the number of followers of other creeds was utterly decimated, like the Copts, the Assyrians, etc.
Don't forget that "People of the Book" were always 2nd-class citizens in Muslim societies. They were obliged to pay a tax in return for being exempted from conversion to Islam. I've already shown that that classification hasn't granted Jews automatic protection from unwarranted hostility and violence, and that Jews were subjected to violent treatment on multiple occasions.
I don't discount the impact the Crusades have had on Mideastern Muslim minds vis-a-vis actions undertaken by Jews in the Land of Israel that were fueled by Zinist convictions; yet I maintain that once you eliminate such factors as the Crusades and European anti-Semitism, you find there still exists a core, or a bottom layer if you will, of Islamic anti-Semitism taking its cues from the Quran, other early Muslim religious texts and writings of midieval Muslim scholars.
Some negative notions of Israeli Jews concerning Muslims stem out of negative experiences of Jews who had lived under Muslim rule. After all, about 40%-50% of Israeli Jews are immigrants or descendants of immigrants from Muslim lands in the Mideast and beyond (let alone the non-Ashkenazim who lived in the Holy Land itself under Muslim rule).
>>>"...the antiSemitism one sees among some Palestinians is a product of the conflict not a cause of it. "<<<
I could agree to this contention in theory. But which Palestinians haven't ever been prone to PLO propaganda which has anti-Semitism embedded in it? Perhaps a pretty small number of Palestininas in some Western countries that somehow have never been exposed to anti-SEmitic propaganda. In any rate, these people are in the minority. My observations lead me to conclude that the anti-Semitism among most Palestinians is a cause of the conflict, not vice versa.
>>>"Just because myths are used to justify a conflict doesn't mean that the underlying reasons for a conflict are not valid."<<<
I second that.
>>>"Even the mainstream media likes to present the Arab-Israeli conflict as a product of such ancient hatreds. But in this case, its not."<<<
Sorry, I resolutely disagree. I've already provided sufficient evidence to refute your assertion. Your claim flies in the face of solid historical evidence, therefore it doesn't hold water.
>>>" Views about Christians were influenced by the Crusades but until Israel was created Jews were barely thought about and didnt play much of a role in the cultures of the region."<<<
But the nefarious anti-Semitic images Muslims adopted during the Middle Ages had played a crucial role in cementing the perpetuation of the less-than-benign treatment Jews have been subjected to throughout the Middle East.
Woops, I mixed up Umayid and Abbasid in my previous comment.
I would still like to hear about antiSemitism in the Middle East in even just the 1700s and 1800s. It was my impression that there were no real conflicts between even the Jewish settlers in Palestine and the Palestinians until well into the 20th century. Im not trying to argue that nonMuslims were treated as equals by the Ottomans, jut that the modern form of antiSemitism in the Middle East resulted from a modern conflict.
Wikipedia has this on their page about Islamic antiSemitism:
"When Muslim armies conquered nations, they did not force people of the Book (a category including Jews) to convert to Islam. Under Sharia law they were given the status of dhimmi, which gave them certain rights, as well as certain responsibilities. As dhimmis, Jews faced a greater level of tolerance under Muslim rule than under Christian rule. Dhimmis were provided with limited autonomy, and allowed to practice their religion. They had to pay the Jizya tax, but were exempted from the Zakat (alms) tax. The exact treatment of dhimmi varied greatly from place to place."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_anti-Semitism
Of course some Islamic countries were bad. But after almost 1000 years there is a difference between a few hateful rulers and a pattern of antiSemitism:
"Around 1000 CE the clinically insane Fatimid Caliph al-Hakim in Egypt ordered the killing of many Jews. Soon after its foundation by Yusuf ibn Tashfin, the Almoravid dynasty attempted to expel all Jews from Morocco in 1107; this effort soon petered out, and in fact one of their own military leaders was Jewish. However, its successor and overthrower the Almohad dynasty, founded by Ibn Tumart, was notoriously intolerant of all other religions, and indeed all other sects of Islam. In 1148, they offered Christians and Jews the choice of conversion or expulsion; in 1165, one of their rulers ordered that all Jews in the country convert on pain of death (forcing Maimonides to flee the country.) This policy was reversed by the succeeding Merinid dynasty in 1212."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_anti-Semitism
The Protocols were Russian in origin and while I have actually heard some religious Islamic antiSemitism, it seems different from the modern denunciations of the Zionists that almost seem central to a lot of cultures today (governments find it a convenient way to pawn off anything that goes wrong on Zionists). In terms of religious origins of antiSemitism in Islam, Arafat manages to use the same words and try to make them sound opposed to antiSemitism in http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/440479.html
Ok "Definitely. This is my grandfather - Abraham ... your grandfather, and he's my grandfather also. You are from ... Yitzhak and Jacob. So it is clear, historically ..." almost creeps me out since trying to tie current conflicts to religious beliefs is bound to only make things worse, but it doesnt seem like thats the real root of modern antiSemitism in the Middle East.
In any case, can you give some links to more than issolated instances of antiSemitism in the Middle East during the 1700s and 1800s? During the same period one can see many examples in Europe from Russian pogroms to the Dreyfus Affair. If Middle Eastern antiSemitism was caused due to hatreds over the foundation of Israel that doesnt make it better but the demonization of an enemy during war is different form longer term hatreds that are harder to heal.
I would still like to hear about antiSemitism in the Middle East in even just the 1700s and 1800s. It was my impression that there were no real conflicts between even the Jewish settlers in Palestine and the Palestinians until well into the 20th century. Im not trying to argue that nonMuslims were treated as equals by the Ottomans, jut that the modern form of antiSemitism in the Middle East resulted from a modern conflict.
Wikipedia has this on their page about Islamic antiSemitism:
"When Muslim armies conquered nations, they did not force people of the Book (a category including Jews) to convert to Islam. Under Sharia law they were given the status of dhimmi, which gave them certain rights, as well as certain responsibilities. As dhimmis, Jews faced a greater level of tolerance under Muslim rule than under Christian rule. Dhimmis were provided with limited autonomy, and allowed to practice their religion. They had to pay the Jizya tax, but were exempted from the Zakat (alms) tax. The exact treatment of dhimmi varied greatly from place to place."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_anti-Semitism
Of course some Islamic countries were bad. But after almost 1000 years there is a difference between a few hateful rulers and a pattern of antiSemitism:
"Around 1000 CE the clinically insane Fatimid Caliph al-Hakim in Egypt ordered the killing of many Jews. Soon after its foundation by Yusuf ibn Tashfin, the Almoravid dynasty attempted to expel all Jews from Morocco in 1107; this effort soon petered out, and in fact one of their own military leaders was Jewish. However, its successor and overthrower the Almohad dynasty, founded by Ibn Tumart, was notoriously intolerant of all other religions, and indeed all other sects of Islam. In 1148, they offered Christians and Jews the choice of conversion or expulsion; in 1165, one of their rulers ordered that all Jews in the country convert on pain of death (forcing Maimonides to flee the country.) This policy was reversed by the succeeding Merinid dynasty in 1212."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_anti-Semitism
The Protocols were Russian in origin and while I have actually heard some religious Islamic antiSemitism, it seems different from the modern denunciations of the Zionists that almost seem central to a lot of cultures today (governments find it a convenient way to pawn off anything that goes wrong on Zionists). In terms of religious origins of antiSemitism in Islam, Arafat manages to use the same words and try to make them sound opposed to antiSemitism in http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/440479.html
Ok "Definitely. This is my grandfather - Abraham ... your grandfather, and he's my grandfather also. You are from ... Yitzhak and Jacob. So it is clear, historically ..." almost creeps me out since trying to tie current conflicts to religious beliefs is bound to only make things worse, but it doesnt seem like thats the real root of modern antiSemitism in the Middle East.
In any case, can you give some links to more than issolated instances of antiSemitism in the Middle East during the 1700s and 1800s? During the same period one can see many examples in Europe from Russian pogroms to the Dreyfus Affair. If Middle Eastern antiSemitism was caused due to hatreds over the foundation of Israel that doesnt make it better but the demonization of an enemy during war is different form longer term hatreds that are harder to heal.
"In any case, can you give some links to more than issolated instances of antiSemitism in the Middle East during the 1700s and 1800s"
There was no racism in the New World between the 1500s and 1900s...Black people lived peacefully as slaves...it wasn't until the 20th century that THEY caused problems...
(Just like Jews living among Moslems in institutionalized apartheid-Dhimmi status)
There was no racism in the New World between the 1500s and 1900s...Black people lived peacefully as slaves...it wasn't until the 20th century that THEY caused problems...
(Just like Jews living among Moslems in institutionalized apartheid-Dhimmi status)
Jews who do not practice Islam are Dhimmi. It's not about race. it's about religion. Islam is multiethnic.
"Jews who do not practice Islam are Dhimmi. It's not about race. it's about religion. Islam is multiethnic"
LOL!!! Institutionalized religious APARTHEID>>>>
The multi ethnic Isalmic Arabs of Sudan are peadefully eradicating Black people in the Sudan...Genocide isn't racism either! It is about race, and NOT religion...the black being massacred are also moslems.
LOL!!! Institutionalized religious APARTHEID>>>>
The multi ethnic Isalmic Arabs of Sudan are peadefully eradicating Black people in the Sudan...Genocide isn't racism either! It is about race, and NOT religion...the black being massacred are also moslems.
And in the State of Israel, non-Jews are the equivalent of dhimmi.
If “they do it, too” was a valid excuse, Hitler would be off the hook for killing six million Jews, because Stalin killed six million Ukrainians.
"If “they do it, too” was a valid excuse"
That's not the point!
Here's an analogy for you...
Muslims will be allowed to live in the United States, as long as they pay a special protection tax, and do not build mosques, or otherwise openly practice their religion..Traditional muslim garb is not allowed. (this is what it means to be living as a Christian or Jew with dhimmi status in moslem nations) Kafir...Buddhists, Hindus, animists etc have no such protection...they can be killed or enslaved at will...Nice crowd huh?
Get it?
That's not the point!
Here's an analogy for you...
Muslims will be allowed to live in the United States, as long as they pay a special protection tax, and do not build mosques, or otherwise openly practice their religion..Traditional muslim garb is not allowed. (this is what it means to be living as a Christian or Jew with dhimmi status in moslem nations) Kafir...Buddhists, Hindus, animists etc have no such protection...they can be killed or enslaved at will...Nice crowd huh?
Get it?
Not to a moral cripple like you, maybe.
But to anyone who has ever studied religion, compared to Judaism or Christianity, Islam is positively progressive.
Judeo-Christian scriptures are one atrocity after another:
http://www.sfimc.net/news/2004/06/1695255_comment.php#1695513
But to anyone who has ever studied religion, compared to Judaism or Christianity, Islam is positively progressive.
Judeo-Christian scriptures are one atrocity after another:
http://www.sfimc.net/news/2004/06/1695255_comment.php#1695513
Re:CT
I've been searching for the last few minutes for links to grant your request but haven't found such URLs so far. Whether they exist or not, why don't you do your own search?
Let's assume now that there were no anti-Jewish conflicts recorded during the 18th and 19th centuries throughout the Middle East. It's possible that self-appointed historians, real ones and reporters of those times didn't see fit to record any. Some facts still remain: the golden age of Jews under Muslim rule in the Iberian peninsula had long been over; we can assume there were countless minor incidents in which Muslim locals were culpable; it was not the case that only the Ottomans harbored and manifested anti-Semitic hatred. It must be borne in mind that most Muslims hadn't forgiven the Jews for failing to acknowledge Muhammad and Islam as the true prophet and the true creed, respectively.
As for real conflict beginning in the 20th century...As early as 1891, there was already evidence of anti-Zionism on the part of the Arabs of the Land of Israel. In that year several hundred Arab notables from Jerusalem and Jaffa sent a petition to the court at Constantinople asking that the sultan put an end to both Jewish immigration and land purchase. The first organized attack by Arabs on a Jewish settlement occurred March 1, 1886 against Petach Tikva. In 1908 there was an Arab attack against Jews in Jaffa on the night of the Jewish holiday Purim (btw, I've now found out that there had been Jews residing not only in Hebron, but in Jenin until 1929-1948! http://www.wzo.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=876). In 1909, Jews were killed by Arab marauders in Yavneel, Beit Gan, and Sajra.
I concur with your contention that Middleastern anti-Semitism in its modern day form is the product of the relatively new conflict with Zionism. I agree that this conflict is its actual root. I nevertheless maintain the still-existing, still-active, older religious Muslim anti-Semitism is often used to pour fuel on the proverbial bonfire of the anti-Semitism that originates in the Arab-Israeli conflicts.
Your quote from Wikipedia re dhimmitude confirms my assertions from before.
>>>"Of course some Islamic countries were bad. But after almost 1000 years there is a difference between a few hateful rulers and a pattern of antiSemitism: "<<<
I've shown that even midieval Muslim Spain (a "good" erstwhile Muslim country) was by no means entirely safe for the Jews. Seems to me that most Muslim countries were bad to varying degrees. Though unquestionably much less pernicious than its Christian European counterpart, there most certainly was a pattern of Muslim Jew hatred in Muslim dominated countries over the centuries that preceded Zionism's advent.
I never attempted to claim the Protocols were anything but a Czarist Russian forgery.
The anti-Semitism preachers who deliver inciteful sermons in mosques indulge in includes distinct Muslim religious elements that trace back to the sources I've spoke about before. At times these elements make up the bulk or majority of the sermon's anti-Semitic content. Take for example sermons that were delivered by Hamas and Islamic Jihad imams in the disputed territories since the mid 1990s.
>>>"If Middle Eastern antiSemitism was caused due to hatreds over the foundation of Israel that doesn't make it better but the demonization of an enemy during war is different form longer term hatreds that are harder to heal."<<<
With all due respect, I detect, on the one hand, what seems like a certain reluctance on your part to acknowledge plain and concrete evidence lying in front of you that proves there's a pattern of religious-based Muslim anti-Semitism. I've shown you not only the historical and religious origins of pre-1900s Muslim anti-Semitism but its manifestations. Your eagerness to read links proving an irrefutable pattern of Muslim anti-Semitism in the 18th and 19th centuries may be indicative of your reluctance. On the other, it's possible you're trying to solidify a view you may be coming around to, namely that there is a proven pattern of religious-based Muslim anti-Semitism that stretches back to the 1st half of the 7th century - which is at odds to the one you have held till now.
I've been searching for the last few minutes for links to grant your request but haven't found such URLs so far. Whether they exist or not, why don't you do your own search?
Let's assume now that there were no anti-Jewish conflicts recorded during the 18th and 19th centuries throughout the Middle East. It's possible that self-appointed historians, real ones and reporters of those times didn't see fit to record any. Some facts still remain: the golden age of Jews under Muslim rule in the Iberian peninsula had long been over; we can assume there were countless minor incidents in which Muslim locals were culpable; it was not the case that only the Ottomans harbored and manifested anti-Semitic hatred. It must be borne in mind that most Muslims hadn't forgiven the Jews for failing to acknowledge Muhammad and Islam as the true prophet and the true creed, respectively.
As for real conflict beginning in the 20th century...As early as 1891, there was already evidence of anti-Zionism on the part of the Arabs of the Land of Israel. In that year several hundred Arab notables from Jerusalem and Jaffa sent a petition to the court at Constantinople asking that the sultan put an end to both Jewish immigration and land purchase. The first organized attack by Arabs on a Jewish settlement occurred March 1, 1886 against Petach Tikva. In 1908 there was an Arab attack against Jews in Jaffa on the night of the Jewish holiday Purim (btw, I've now found out that there had been Jews residing not only in Hebron, but in Jenin until 1929-1948! http://www.wzo.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=876). In 1909, Jews were killed by Arab marauders in Yavneel, Beit Gan, and Sajra.
I concur with your contention that Middleastern anti-Semitism in its modern day form is the product of the relatively new conflict with Zionism. I agree that this conflict is its actual root. I nevertheless maintain the still-existing, still-active, older religious Muslim anti-Semitism is often used to pour fuel on the proverbial bonfire of the anti-Semitism that originates in the Arab-Israeli conflicts.
Your quote from Wikipedia re dhimmitude confirms my assertions from before.
>>>"Of course some Islamic countries were bad. But after almost 1000 years there is a difference between a few hateful rulers and a pattern of antiSemitism: "<<<
I've shown that even midieval Muslim Spain (a "good" erstwhile Muslim country) was by no means entirely safe for the Jews. Seems to me that most Muslim countries were bad to varying degrees. Though unquestionably much less pernicious than its Christian European counterpart, there most certainly was a pattern of Muslim Jew hatred in Muslim dominated countries over the centuries that preceded Zionism's advent.
I never attempted to claim the Protocols were anything but a Czarist Russian forgery.
The anti-Semitism preachers who deliver inciteful sermons in mosques indulge in includes distinct Muslim religious elements that trace back to the sources I've spoke about before. At times these elements make up the bulk or majority of the sermon's anti-Semitic content. Take for example sermons that were delivered by Hamas and Islamic Jihad imams in the disputed territories since the mid 1990s.
>>>"If Middle Eastern antiSemitism was caused due to hatreds over the foundation of Israel that doesn't make it better but the demonization of an enemy during war is different form longer term hatreds that are harder to heal."<<<
With all due respect, I detect, on the one hand, what seems like a certain reluctance on your part to acknowledge plain and concrete evidence lying in front of you that proves there's a pattern of religious-based Muslim anti-Semitism. I've shown you not only the historical and religious origins of pre-1900s Muslim anti-Semitism but its manifestations. Your eagerness to read links proving an irrefutable pattern of Muslim anti-Semitism in the 18th and 19th centuries may be indicative of your reluctance. On the other, it's possible you're trying to solidify a view you may be coming around to, namely that there is a proven pattern of religious-based Muslim anti-Semitism that stretches back to the 1st half of the 7th century - which is at odds to the one you have held till now.
Clearly.. adherents of every major religion have gone on a killing spree or three, that's why it's a major religion.. Sadly (given its fairly "loving" message) Christianity has by far the worst record thanks to the european colonizers. After the europeans were more or less through, people are still cleaning up the mess from the middle east to indonesia to the shoshone. Religions preach peace while people, men mostly, practice murder rape and war.
Sorry pal. Killing sprees - if followers or adherents of Judaism ever engaged in them per se - aren't what has made Judaism a major faith. That much is for sure. It was rather the message Judaism had to offer.
"As for real conflict beginning in the 20th century...As early as 1891, there was already evidence of anti-Zionism on the part of the Arabs of the Land of Israel."
Although not much. Many of the Zionists during the first Aliyah built factories and provided good jobs to Arab workers. Many Jewish settlements during the first Aliyah were even guarded by hired Arab secuity forces.
"In that year several hundred Arab notables from Jerusalem and Jaffa sent a petition to the court at Constantinople asking that the sultan put an end to both Jewish immigration and land purchase."
Things were not perfect but that is evidence of a resentment by an elite.
"The first organized attack by Arabs on a Jewish settlement occurred March 1, 1886 against Petach Tikva."
Curious to hear more. Was this related to the settlements being Jewish or some other conflict?
"In 1908 there was an Arab attack against Jews in Jaffa on the night of the Jewish holiday Purim"
Sounds like this could be a first case of an antiSemitic attack in post 1700s Palestine against Jews. Would have to hear more about it though since some of these conflicts were over other things. The timing suggests disrespect for Judaism, but it could still have been an attempt to take revenge for a love triangle, a labor dispute etc...
"btw, I've now found out that there had been Jews residing not only in Hebron, but in Jenin until 1929-1948!"
This would show that people were able to live togther pre20th century.
"I concur with your contention that Middleastern anti-Semitism in its modern day form is the product of the relatively new conflict with Zionism. I agree that this conflict is its actual root."
"I nevertheless maintain the still-existing, still-active, older religious Muslim anti-Semitism is often used to pour fuel on the proverbial bonfire of the anti-Semitism that originates in the Arab-Israeli conflicts."
Ocassionally one does hear talk of who came from Abraham and that type of talk. Historically Jews were not treated as equals in Muslim countries and showing a lack of attacks isnt an attempt to say that thing back then are how they should be in the future. What it does show is that Jews and Muslims were able to live together peacfully with an amazing lack of conflict for hundreds of years (even in places like Jenin as you pointed out) Herzl spoke of respect for Jews in Palestine as a reason to settle there rather than the other possible places he mentions (I think Argentina and Uganda).I guess what Im trying to attack is the tendency for many Israelis to act as if they dont know why they are hated in the region and to assume that its becasue the region is antiSemitic. The region is antiSemitic now but the reason Israel is hated and that Zionist conspiracy theories have even spread back to the US is because of Israel's actions. The Turkish PM made a statement a few weeks ago that the Israeli government should aknowledge that the rise in antiSemitism worldwide is a direct result of Isreals actions ( http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/439488.html ). AntiSemitism shouldnt result from Israel's actions just as antiArab views in the US shouldnt have resulted from 9/11. What bothers me is that even the UN conference on antiSemitism this week will deal with antiSemitism as if its in a vacuum whereas efforts to deal with antiArab racism usually directly confront the problem (those signs around town about Israel being a Demoracy are counterproductive; signs saying that mostAmerican Jews and most Israelis oppose the occupation and want Palestinians to have their own state would be better since its true and confronts the issue head on)
Although not much. Many of the Zionists during the first Aliyah built factories and provided good jobs to Arab workers. Many Jewish settlements during the first Aliyah were even guarded by hired Arab secuity forces.
"In that year several hundred Arab notables from Jerusalem and Jaffa sent a petition to the court at Constantinople asking that the sultan put an end to both Jewish immigration and land purchase."
Things were not perfect but that is evidence of a resentment by an elite.
"The first organized attack by Arabs on a Jewish settlement occurred March 1, 1886 against Petach Tikva."
Curious to hear more. Was this related to the settlements being Jewish or some other conflict?
"In 1908 there was an Arab attack against Jews in Jaffa on the night of the Jewish holiday Purim"
Sounds like this could be a first case of an antiSemitic attack in post 1700s Palestine against Jews. Would have to hear more about it though since some of these conflicts were over other things. The timing suggests disrespect for Judaism, but it could still have been an attempt to take revenge for a love triangle, a labor dispute etc...
"btw, I've now found out that there had been Jews residing not only in Hebron, but in Jenin until 1929-1948!"
This would show that people were able to live togther pre20th century.
"I concur with your contention that Middleastern anti-Semitism in its modern day form is the product of the relatively new conflict with Zionism. I agree that this conflict is its actual root."
"I nevertheless maintain the still-existing, still-active, older religious Muslim anti-Semitism is often used to pour fuel on the proverbial bonfire of the anti-Semitism that originates in the Arab-Israeli conflicts."
Ocassionally one does hear talk of who came from Abraham and that type of talk. Historically Jews were not treated as equals in Muslim countries and showing a lack of attacks isnt an attempt to say that thing back then are how they should be in the future. What it does show is that Jews and Muslims were able to live together peacfully with an amazing lack of conflict for hundreds of years (even in places like Jenin as you pointed out) Herzl spoke of respect for Jews in Palestine as a reason to settle there rather than the other possible places he mentions (I think Argentina and Uganda).I guess what Im trying to attack is the tendency for many Israelis to act as if they dont know why they are hated in the region and to assume that its becasue the region is antiSemitic. The region is antiSemitic now but the reason Israel is hated and that Zionist conspiracy theories have even spread back to the US is because of Israel's actions. The Turkish PM made a statement a few weeks ago that the Israeli government should aknowledge that the rise in antiSemitism worldwide is a direct result of Isreals actions ( http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/439488.html ). AntiSemitism shouldnt result from Israel's actions just as antiArab views in the US shouldnt have resulted from 9/11. What bothers me is that even the UN conference on antiSemitism this week will deal with antiSemitism as if its in a vacuum whereas efforts to deal with antiArab racism usually directly confront the problem (those signs around town about Israel being a Demoracy are counterproductive; signs saying that mostAmerican Jews and most Israelis oppose the occupation and want Palestinians to have their own state would be better since its true and confronts the issue head on)
woops forgot to add that when I question the Arab-Jewish conflcits pre1914 its partly in response to reading
"Land, Labor and the Origins of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict 1882-1914"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521353009/qid=1088006601/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i3_xgl14/103-4046087-4438208?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
which attempts to show that some of the normally quoted conflicts were not due to antiSemitism (one was over a stolen donkey I think) and that antiZionism in the region started due to some labor conflicts where Jewish workers refused to work with Palestinians since they saw them as a threat (since they would work for lower wages) and due to growing regional nationalisms following the Young Turk rebellion.
"Land, Labor and the Origins of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict 1882-1914"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521353009/qid=1088006601/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i3_xgl14/103-4046087-4438208?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
which attempts to show that some of the normally quoted conflicts were not due to antiSemitism (one was over a stolen donkey I think) and that antiZionism in the region started due to some labor conflicts where Jewish workers refused to work with Palestinians since they saw them as a threat (since they would work for lower wages) and due to growing regional nationalisms following the Young Turk rebellion.
Hi All,
Hope you enjoy reading the following from Syrians about my article:
Wendy,
I found your article on your trip to Syria interesting. However, I know some folks personally who have spent a great deal of time there (one is Syrian by birth), and I had heard some less sanguine comments from them about the political situation in Syria, and so I asked them to comment on your article. Here is what the husband wrote (he is not Syrian, but spent lots of time there, and met his wife there, who is Syrian):
From a Syrian man:
Just glanced at the article but will spend more time on it and let you know. Here are a few of my comments and observations:
When a country is under occupation, differences between the population, ethnical, religious, economic, etc., are largely disregarded for the greater evil: the occupier. Then, when the occupier is ready to leave, they obviously try to impose a government which will be friendly to them in the future (This is probably a whole topic by itself – look at Iraq now!). Great Britain was largely successful in this (or maybe I am biased) but the French left a legacy of disaster in their wake.
Syria is a typical example. Syria has been under occupation for over two thousand years: Greeks (or Mesopotamians – did I spell that correctly??), Romans, Turks, British, French, etc. The Turks were brutal, and many Syrians still living can recall their atrocities. When the French finally left, Syria became a republic and suffered coup after coup until finally, Hafez Al Assad took control. To preempt any further resistance, their section of the Baath Party massacred the rival wing, and brutally subdued the population. There are good points to this and bad. Left as it was, the country would still be undergoing civil war and many more deaths would have ensued; as it is, there are few uprisings and the country is stable. Now, Israel is the common enemy, and is used successfully by the government to explain many of their own problems.
When Hafez died, fortunately, the heir apparent (Basel) had already been killed in a motor accident and the reins fell on the younger son, Bashar. The Al Assad family are of the religious group called Alowi. These are loosely related to Moslems; although they pray to the Virgin Mary and many Christian saints. They feel more comfortable with Christians and promote them to high ranking government positions in a similar way to Iraq under Sadam – Iraq’s foreign minister was Christian. In Syria, the Alowi’s comprise only about 5% of the population, coming from the same region as the Christians, in the mountains above Latakia and Tartous on the Med. Prior to their rise to government, the Alowis by large, performed menial tasks and were employed as housekeepers, janitors, etc. They are farm people. Christians comprise about 10% of the population, I believe. Having small families, and being well established, many are highly educated and occupy many high level posts in government and the private sector. Therefore, there exists a precarious situation where the minorities are governing the majority which is pure Moslem.
In 1982 or there abouts, after several years of severe terrorist activity emulating mainly from the cities of Hama and Allepo, Haffez circled the city of Hama and bombed it to the ground, killing about 25,00 all told. Bassel also massacred about two thousand dissidents/terrorists who were being held in a prison when an assassination attempt failed against his father during the 1980’s. Most were slaughtered by helicopter gun ships, and the remainder had their throats slashed. The destruction of Hama stopped the uprising, and probably a civil war which, left unchecked, would have resulted in even more deaths and probably another Iran under the rule of extremist Moslem clerics. . It was almost civil war at that time and I lost many close friends through terrorist attacks. One of my dear friends was killed alongside about thirty others on a bus in Damascus. Others were ambushed, blown up, etc. .
Bashar had studied in the UK as a doctor (or dentist, I can’t remember) and had no real interest in politics, believing that his older brother would eventually succeed good ol’ dad. Thankfully, this never transpired. Bassel was a born military man, parachutist, womanizer and all round spoilt brat. Bashar on the other hand, is a gentle mannered guy, versed in computers and internet, etc. When he took power, he initially tried to open the country up to the outside world. Thirty years of US sanctions, and self imposed isolation have taken their toll. The country is in dire straits: poor beyond belief, and more so now that Russia, its old ally has folded. However, the old guard are still around and having control of the military, I would imagine keep a close rein on Bashar.
Despite being dictators, the Al Assad’s are dearly loved by the majority of Syrians and I have witnessed first hand the grief displayed at the time of Bassel’s death and subsequently, his father’s.
The Syrian’s are warm, hospitable people and will welcome anyone despite their nationality or religion. They firmly believe that they populated the world, and everyone is descended from Syria. I have been stopped many, many times whilst walking in the street and invited for coffee, or even a meal by total strangers. When you visit Syria, its like going back in time a thousand or more years. Girls are chaperoned, honor is still important to a family, and they laugh if you cannot recite your forefathers to the Nth generation. Many can recant their family tree over the past hundred or more years. They probably still live in the same house, after all!
If you criticize the government, ask where the oil revenue goes, insult the president or one of his men, and you are Syrian, you are in very deep cacky muck. If you are lucky, you’ll get the electric shock treatment. If you are not, you simply disappear; sometimes forever, and others for a few or more years. This happens also in Jordan, Egypt, probably Palestine, and most of the other countries in the region. It probably also goes on in the West but is less well publicized. Over there, they want it to be known to discourage others. Here, they just want silence: how many associated of Clinton died during his reign?
Anyway, I could write a book, but here is a brief overview!
Oh, I forgot to mention. I positively love Syria. I own two houses there and intend to retire there when its time. It is the best country I have ever visited. It has mountains, sea, rivers, desert, city, countryside, friendly people, hospitality greater than I have ever experienced, incredibly beautiful ladies, cheap healthcare, organic food, a slow paced life style, history (dig in your garden and you’ll find treasures!), religious freedom, incredibly cheap cost of living ($500 a month and you can live like a king, $1,000 and you get to travel to UK too), fantastic weather, exceptionally low crime rate, shall I go on??
The above is in comparison to all other countries I have visited which includes most of Western/Mid Europe, Middle East, Africa, Philippines, and the USA.
If it is ever opened up to tourism, Syria will be one of the richest countries in the region.
Looking at the headlines of the article, I agree with everything she’s mentioned.
-------------------------------------------
NOTE:
His wife, who is Syrian, agreed with your description of the people and the country. However, she points out that people do not keep pictures of Syria's president in their homes out of affection, but out of fear. Everything in Syria (the way business is done) is corrupt, and the ruling elite gets its cut of everything. Syria has not had a serious presidential election in 30 years: everyone is afraid to challenge the president for his office, so he runs unopposed (like Saddam, also a Ba'athist). Greed and fear prevent the people from challenging the Assad dynasty. She says its understandable that as an incidental visitor you would not have observed this, but that none of your hosts apparently felt safe enough to share any of this with you, and of course, guides and translators are not good intermediaries for this sort of info.
So now you know "the rest of the story." It's a lovely land with warm, friendly people that is ruled by a despotic regime that is firmly entrenched, leaving the people yearning for real democracy, but too fearful to pursue it.
Peace,
Ken
Hope you enjoy reading the following from Syrians about my article:
Wendy,
I found your article on your trip to Syria interesting. However, I know some folks personally who have spent a great deal of time there (one is Syrian by birth), and I had heard some less sanguine comments from them about the political situation in Syria, and so I asked them to comment on your article. Here is what the husband wrote (he is not Syrian, but spent lots of time there, and met his wife there, who is Syrian):
From a Syrian man:
Just glanced at the article but will spend more time on it and let you know. Here are a few of my comments and observations:
When a country is under occupation, differences between the population, ethnical, religious, economic, etc., are largely disregarded for the greater evil: the occupier. Then, when the occupier is ready to leave, they obviously try to impose a government which will be friendly to them in the future (This is probably a whole topic by itself – look at Iraq now!). Great Britain was largely successful in this (or maybe I am biased) but the French left a legacy of disaster in their wake.
Syria is a typical example. Syria has been under occupation for over two thousand years: Greeks (or Mesopotamians – did I spell that correctly??), Romans, Turks, British, French, etc. The Turks were brutal, and many Syrians still living can recall their atrocities. When the French finally left, Syria became a republic and suffered coup after coup until finally, Hafez Al Assad took control. To preempt any further resistance, their section of the Baath Party massacred the rival wing, and brutally subdued the population. There are good points to this and bad. Left as it was, the country would still be undergoing civil war and many more deaths would have ensued; as it is, there are few uprisings and the country is stable. Now, Israel is the common enemy, and is used successfully by the government to explain many of their own problems.
When Hafez died, fortunately, the heir apparent (Basel) had already been killed in a motor accident and the reins fell on the younger son, Bashar. The Al Assad family are of the religious group called Alowi. These are loosely related to Moslems; although they pray to the Virgin Mary and many Christian saints. They feel more comfortable with Christians and promote them to high ranking government positions in a similar way to Iraq under Sadam – Iraq’s foreign minister was Christian. In Syria, the Alowi’s comprise only about 5% of the population, coming from the same region as the Christians, in the mountains above Latakia and Tartous on the Med. Prior to their rise to government, the Alowis by large, performed menial tasks and were employed as housekeepers, janitors, etc. They are farm people. Christians comprise about 10% of the population, I believe. Having small families, and being well established, many are highly educated and occupy many high level posts in government and the private sector. Therefore, there exists a precarious situation where the minorities are governing the majority which is pure Moslem.
In 1982 or there abouts, after several years of severe terrorist activity emulating mainly from the cities of Hama and Allepo, Haffez circled the city of Hama and bombed it to the ground, killing about 25,00 all told. Bassel also massacred about two thousand dissidents/terrorists who were being held in a prison when an assassination attempt failed against his father during the 1980’s. Most were slaughtered by helicopter gun ships, and the remainder had their throats slashed. The destruction of Hama stopped the uprising, and probably a civil war which, left unchecked, would have resulted in even more deaths and probably another Iran under the rule of extremist Moslem clerics. . It was almost civil war at that time and I lost many close friends through terrorist attacks. One of my dear friends was killed alongside about thirty others on a bus in Damascus. Others were ambushed, blown up, etc. .
Bashar had studied in the UK as a doctor (or dentist, I can’t remember) and had no real interest in politics, believing that his older brother would eventually succeed good ol’ dad. Thankfully, this never transpired. Bassel was a born military man, parachutist, womanizer and all round spoilt brat. Bashar on the other hand, is a gentle mannered guy, versed in computers and internet, etc. When he took power, he initially tried to open the country up to the outside world. Thirty years of US sanctions, and self imposed isolation have taken their toll. The country is in dire straits: poor beyond belief, and more so now that Russia, its old ally has folded. However, the old guard are still around and having control of the military, I would imagine keep a close rein on Bashar.
Despite being dictators, the Al Assad’s are dearly loved by the majority of Syrians and I have witnessed first hand the grief displayed at the time of Bassel’s death and subsequently, his father’s.
The Syrian’s are warm, hospitable people and will welcome anyone despite their nationality or religion. They firmly believe that they populated the world, and everyone is descended from Syria. I have been stopped many, many times whilst walking in the street and invited for coffee, or even a meal by total strangers. When you visit Syria, its like going back in time a thousand or more years. Girls are chaperoned, honor is still important to a family, and they laugh if you cannot recite your forefathers to the Nth generation. Many can recant their family tree over the past hundred or more years. They probably still live in the same house, after all!
If you criticize the government, ask where the oil revenue goes, insult the president or one of his men, and you are Syrian, you are in very deep cacky muck. If you are lucky, you’ll get the electric shock treatment. If you are not, you simply disappear; sometimes forever, and others for a few or more years. This happens also in Jordan, Egypt, probably Palestine, and most of the other countries in the region. It probably also goes on in the West but is less well publicized. Over there, they want it to be known to discourage others. Here, they just want silence: how many associated of Clinton died during his reign?
Anyway, I could write a book, but here is a brief overview!
Oh, I forgot to mention. I positively love Syria. I own two houses there and intend to retire there when its time. It is the best country I have ever visited. It has mountains, sea, rivers, desert, city, countryside, friendly people, hospitality greater than I have ever experienced, incredibly beautiful ladies, cheap healthcare, organic food, a slow paced life style, history (dig in your garden and you’ll find treasures!), religious freedom, incredibly cheap cost of living ($500 a month and you can live like a king, $1,000 and you get to travel to UK too), fantastic weather, exceptionally low crime rate, shall I go on??
The above is in comparison to all other countries I have visited which includes most of Western/Mid Europe, Middle East, Africa, Philippines, and the USA.
If it is ever opened up to tourism, Syria will be one of the richest countries in the region.
Looking at the headlines of the article, I agree with everything she’s mentioned.
-------------------------------------------
NOTE:
His wife, who is Syrian, agreed with your description of the people and the country. However, she points out that people do not keep pictures of Syria's president in their homes out of affection, but out of fear. Everything in Syria (the way business is done) is corrupt, and the ruling elite gets its cut of everything. Syria has not had a serious presidential election in 30 years: everyone is afraid to challenge the president for his office, so he runs unopposed (like Saddam, also a Ba'athist). Greed and fear prevent the people from challenging the Assad dynasty. She says its understandable that as an incidental visitor you would not have observed this, but that none of your hosts apparently felt safe enough to share any of this with you, and of course, guides and translators are not good intermediaries for this sort of info.
So now you know "the rest of the story." It's a lovely land with warm, friendly people that is ruled by a despotic regime that is firmly entrenched, leaving the people yearning for real democracy, but too fearful to pursue it.
Peace,
Ken
* In 1891 there was already evidence of anti-Zionism on the part of the Arabs of the Land of Israel.
>>>"Many of the Zionists during the first Aliyah built factories and provided good jobs to Arab workers. Many Jewish settlements during the first Aliyah were even guarded by hired Arab secuity forces. "<<<
Absolutely. Not all Zionist pioneers were happy about the Arab guards since they believed it would be better that only Jews stand guard over Jews. Various incidents in which Arab guards turned on the Jews they watched over vindicated their discontent.
* In that year several hundred Arab notables from Jerusalem and Jaffa sent a petition to the court at Constantinople asking that the sultan put an end to both Jewish immigration and land purchase.
>>>"Things were not perfect but that is evidence of a resentment by an elite. "<<<
Not perfect you say? Which Arabs had the Jewish immigrants been depriving since the early 1880s or before?
* The first organized attack by Arabs on a Jewish settlement occurred March 1, 1886 against Petach Tikva.
>>>"Curious to hear more. Was this related to the settlements being Jewish or some other conflict?"<<<
Truth be told, Petah Tikva was first founded 1878 but was abandoned 3 years later.
I've just found a very informative source containing two witness accounts, though it doesn't tell us what the attack was related to. I know what I think. Judge for yourself.
http://www.frumkin.org.il/newsl02.htm
I wish there was a Hebrew-English online translator so people could understand Hebrew webpages. I've found one that relates: "The Arab neighbors looked on the settlement's development in hostility. In 1886 the Arabs of al-Yahudiye swooped down on Petah tikva: "...on this very day, and wielding sticks and stones have broken all the windows in the houses and also some doors...they even hit to the point of injury 5 people...looted away from some houses...valuables and also inflicted damage smashing the tools..."
http://lib.cet.ac.il/Pages/item.asp?item=434
* In 1908 there was an Arab attack against Jews in Jaffa on the night of the Jewish holiday Purim.
>>>"Sounds like this could be a first case of an antiSemitic attack in post 1700s Palestine against Jews. Would have to hear more about it though since some of these conflicts were over other things. The timing suggests disrespect for Judaism, but it could still have been an attempt to take revenge for a love triangle, a labor dispute etc... "<<<
One source - a leftist Sephardic Jew - portrays this incident as riots that broke out between Arabs and Jews over a religious dispute - the issue of who has the right to pray to Allah, or Adonay, more loudly than the other one.
http://www.wzo.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=876
I recall that when I was learning about the period of the first Zionist immigration wave, l also read that even minor misunderstandings between Arabs and Jews had put the Jewish pioneers in risk of an Arab blood revenge whereby an Arab mob would descend upon a Jewish village much as in 1886 Petah Tikva. I specifically remember reading that sometime in the early 1880s a Jewish kid in Rosh Pinna found a pistol, toyed with it and he ended up unpurposely discharging a bullet that struck an Arab dead. The whole village was in danger of a "blood revenge", so the village's Jews scrambled to find a way to appease the nearby Arabs and ultimately warded off the attack.
* I've found out that there had been Jews residing not only in Hebron, but in Jenin until 1929-1948!"
>>>"This would show that people were able to live togther pre20th century. "<<<
I beg to differ. It shows that at least some Arabs in the land were willing to tolerate the presence of Jews in their midst.
* I concur with your contention that Middleastern anti-Semitism in its modern day form is the product of the relatively new conflict with Zionism. I agree that this conflict is its actual root. I nevertheless maintain the still-existing, still-active, older religious Muslim anti-Semitism is often used to pour fuel on the proverbial bonfire of the anti-Semitism that originates in the Arab-Israeli conflicts.
>>>"Historically Jews were not treated as equals in Muslim countries and showing a lack of attacks isnt an attempt to say that things back then are how they should be in the future."<<<
OK.
>>>" What it does show is that Jews and Muslims were able to live together peacfully with an amazing lack of conflict for hundreds of years (even in places like Jenin as you pointed out)."<<<
I can accept that if "relative" is inserted before the word lack.
>>>"I guess what Im trying to attack is the tendency for many Israelis to act as if they dont know why they are hated in the region and to assume that its becasue the region is antiSemitic. The region is antiSemitic now but the reason Israel is hated and that Zionist conspiracy theories have even spread back to the US is because of Israel's actions."<<<
Which begs the question, exactly which actions - and since when - could Israel have taken (and avoided) that wouldn't ostensibly stir up anti-Semitism and such conspiracies throughout the Muslim Middle East.
This point has just made me reminisce about my exchanges with Canadian anti-Zionist and Uri Avneri fan "Angie" in which she repeated a few times her confidence that Avneri as Prime Minister would have brought Israel a durable, lasting peace. That, of course, couldn't have come true. And, extremist dovish Israeli governments couldn't have been formed until 1999, and we all know what happened during 2000. As I see it, a practical glance at the Israeli populace's political segmentation reveals most Israelis wouldn't stand for a Yahad-Meretz led coalition, as they consider the left-from-Labor Zionist Lefties too lenient on security matters (for better or worse) and too concerned with external opinion about Israeli actions..
>>>"The Turkish PM made a statement a few weeks ago that the Israeli government should aknowledge that the rise in antiSemitism worldwide is a direct result of Isreals actions ( http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/439488.html )."<<<
I remember he scolded infrastructure minister Yosef Paritzky in that vein (in breach of diplomatic protocol btw), and Paritzky retorted by admonishing him for being lopsided and telling him about the savage terrorist murder of the Hatuel family some time before. In essence, Paritzky scolded him for caring a lot about Palestinian losses while not caring for Jewish ones.
>>>"AntiSemitism shouldnt result from Israel's actions just as antiArab views in the US shouldnt have resulted from 9/11."<<<
But there's only so much a person or a nation can do; you can't be held responsible for what the other *thinks* about you. The important thing is that you're confident you're doing the right thing in the correct manner. That's the best you can do. We don't live in a perfect world, sir. You can be the nicest nation or person on earth, and yet others might think ill of you for all sorts of illogical reasons. Look how humanely the Dalai Lama and his followers - all Tibetan exiles - have behaved since 1949. Even the unquestionable sympathies they have earned didn't further their cause of regaining or establishing independence in Tibet *within the land itself*, and even the Dalai Lama has admitted the failure of his modus operandi. So you perhaps want to pin the blame on yourself? Suit yourself.
Indeed, the issue of Jewish labor in the Holy Land was problematic since Arabs would be employed instead of Jews due to their willingness to work for lower wages. There were pioneers who viewed this situation as a threat to the very concept of Jewish labor, since they believed Jews should be redeeming both their psyches and their bodies through physical labor, especially agriculture. The immigrants of the 2nd, mostly socialist, wave since 1904 placed an even greater emphasis on Jewish Labor.
>>>"Many of the Zionists during the first Aliyah built factories and provided good jobs to Arab workers. Many Jewish settlements during the first Aliyah were even guarded by hired Arab secuity forces. "<<<
Absolutely. Not all Zionist pioneers were happy about the Arab guards since they believed it would be better that only Jews stand guard over Jews. Various incidents in which Arab guards turned on the Jews they watched over vindicated their discontent.
* In that year several hundred Arab notables from Jerusalem and Jaffa sent a petition to the court at Constantinople asking that the sultan put an end to both Jewish immigration and land purchase.
>>>"Things were not perfect but that is evidence of a resentment by an elite. "<<<
Not perfect you say? Which Arabs had the Jewish immigrants been depriving since the early 1880s or before?
* The first organized attack by Arabs on a Jewish settlement occurred March 1, 1886 against Petach Tikva.
>>>"Curious to hear more. Was this related to the settlements being Jewish or some other conflict?"<<<
Truth be told, Petah Tikva was first founded 1878 but was abandoned 3 years later.
I've just found a very informative source containing two witness accounts, though it doesn't tell us what the attack was related to. I know what I think. Judge for yourself.
http://www.frumkin.org.il/newsl02.htm
I wish there was a Hebrew-English online translator so people could understand Hebrew webpages. I've found one that relates: "The Arab neighbors looked on the settlement's development in hostility. In 1886 the Arabs of al-Yahudiye swooped down on Petah tikva: "...on this very day, and wielding sticks and stones have broken all the windows in the houses and also some doors...they even hit to the point of injury 5 people...looted away from some houses...valuables and also inflicted damage smashing the tools..."
http://lib.cet.ac.il/Pages/item.asp?item=434
* In 1908 there was an Arab attack against Jews in Jaffa on the night of the Jewish holiday Purim.
>>>"Sounds like this could be a first case of an antiSemitic attack in post 1700s Palestine against Jews. Would have to hear more about it though since some of these conflicts were over other things. The timing suggests disrespect for Judaism, but it could still have been an attempt to take revenge for a love triangle, a labor dispute etc... "<<<
One source - a leftist Sephardic Jew - portrays this incident as riots that broke out between Arabs and Jews over a religious dispute - the issue of who has the right to pray to Allah, or Adonay, more loudly than the other one.
http://www.wzo.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=876
I recall that when I was learning about the period of the first Zionist immigration wave, l also read that even minor misunderstandings between Arabs and Jews had put the Jewish pioneers in risk of an Arab blood revenge whereby an Arab mob would descend upon a Jewish village much as in 1886 Petah Tikva. I specifically remember reading that sometime in the early 1880s a Jewish kid in Rosh Pinna found a pistol, toyed with it and he ended up unpurposely discharging a bullet that struck an Arab dead. The whole village was in danger of a "blood revenge", so the village's Jews scrambled to find a way to appease the nearby Arabs and ultimately warded off the attack.
* I've found out that there had been Jews residing not only in Hebron, but in Jenin until 1929-1948!"
>>>"This would show that people were able to live togther pre20th century. "<<<
I beg to differ. It shows that at least some Arabs in the land were willing to tolerate the presence of Jews in their midst.
* I concur with your contention that Middleastern anti-Semitism in its modern day form is the product of the relatively new conflict with Zionism. I agree that this conflict is its actual root. I nevertheless maintain the still-existing, still-active, older religious Muslim anti-Semitism is often used to pour fuel on the proverbial bonfire of the anti-Semitism that originates in the Arab-Israeli conflicts.
>>>"Historically Jews were not treated as equals in Muslim countries and showing a lack of attacks isnt an attempt to say that things back then are how they should be in the future."<<<
OK.
>>>" What it does show is that Jews and Muslims were able to live together peacfully with an amazing lack of conflict for hundreds of years (even in places like Jenin as you pointed out)."<<<
I can accept that if "relative" is inserted before the word lack.
>>>"I guess what Im trying to attack is the tendency for many Israelis to act as if they dont know why they are hated in the region and to assume that its becasue the region is antiSemitic. The region is antiSemitic now but the reason Israel is hated and that Zionist conspiracy theories have even spread back to the US is because of Israel's actions."<<<
Which begs the question, exactly which actions - and since when - could Israel have taken (and avoided) that wouldn't ostensibly stir up anti-Semitism and such conspiracies throughout the Muslim Middle East.
This point has just made me reminisce about my exchanges with Canadian anti-Zionist and Uri Avneri fan "Angie" in which she repeated a few times her confidence that Avneri as Prime Minister would have brought Israel a durable, lasting peace. That, of course, couldn't have come true. And, extremist dovish Israeli governments couldn't have been formed until 1999, and we all know what happened during 2000. As I see it, a practical glance at the Israeli populace's political segmentation reveals most Israelis wouldn't stand for a Yahad-Meretz led coalition, as they consider the left-from-Labor Zionist Lefties too lenient on security matters (for better or worse) and too concerned with external opinion about Israeli actions..
>>>"The Turkish PM made a statement a few weeks ago that the Israeli government should aknowledge that the rise in antiSemitism worldwide is a direct result of Isreals actions ( http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/439488.html )."<<<
I remember he scolded infrastructure minister Yosef Paritzky in that vein (in breach of diplomatic protocol btw), and Paritzky retorted by admonishing him for being lopsided and telling him about the savage terrorist murder of the Hatuel family some time before. In essence, Paritzky scolded him for caring a lot about Palestinian losses while not caring for Jewish ones.
>>>"AntiSemitism shouldnt result from Israel's actions just as antiArab views in the US shouldnt have resulted from 9/11."<<<
But there's only so much a person or a nation can do; you can't be held responsible for what the other *thinks* about you. The important thing is that you're confident you're doing the right thing in the correct manner. That's the best you can do. We don't live in a perfect world, sir. You can be the nicest nation or person on earth, and yet others might think ill of you for all sorts of illogical reasons. Look how humanely the Dalai Lama and his followers - all Tibetan exiles - have behaved since 1949. Even the unquestionable sympathies they have earned didn't further their cause of regaining or establishing independence in Tibet *within the land itself*, and even the Dalai Lama has admitted the failure of his modus operandi. So you perhaps want to pin the blame on yourself? Suit yourself.
Indeed, the issue of Jewish labor in the Holy Land was problematic since Arabs would be employed instead of Jews due to their willingness to work for lower wages. There were pioneers who viewed this situation as a threat to the very concept of Jewish labor, since they believed Jews should be redeeming both their psyches and their bodies through physical labor, especially agriculture. The immigrants of the 2nd, mostly socialist, wave since 1904 placed an even greater emphasis on Jewish Labor.
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