Publish to Newswire
Add an EventFrom the Open-Publishing Calendar
From the Open-Publishing Newswire
Indybay Feature
SF: A protest rooted in ignorance?
A disturbing morning at the protest. I'm going back to bed.
I am back home after a disturbing morning. I wanted to go out and protest GMO food. What I discovered instead was a scene where I began sympathizing with the police. Let me explain. When I got to Moscone around 8PM, the scene felt very strange. I got separated from my group of 4 other activists from Sacramento. We are here staying with my mom. I began wandering around. I saw a professional-looking woman crying on the sidewalk. Two police officers were with her talking on their radios. I asked if she were okay and she said she was a multiple sclerosis researcher and why were we doing this (she assumed I was an activist because of how I look). She told me she was trying to find a cure for a disease that crippled her younger brother. Then, the police noticed me and told me to leave or I would be subject to search and possible arrest. The researcher told me to just go. I wandered past a group of activists at the barricades. They were yelling for police to arrest other people going into the conference. One young person in a mask pointed at an older woman going into the conference and screamed "send her to abu ghraib!" I went and wandered into a cafe on Market Street that has internet. I read the SFgate report and when I really thought about it, I had real problems with what was going on. Are we really here to terrorize or "shut down" research? My father had a terminal illness that affected our entire family my whole life, and so talking even so briefly with the researcher caused an emotional outburst in myself. I've now returned to my mom's house and I'm undecided about going back out. I think we need to have more critical discussion about this. In the days leading up to the protest, I heard a lot about shutting down the conference, stopping it from functioning, a lot about GMO food, but is that all that's going on here?
Add Your Comments
Comments
(Hide Comments)
I meant 8AM, sorry.
you realize that the wieners in that conference are BUSINESSPEOPLE. they do not _MAKE_ the drugs that save your family. they _MAKE MONEY_ off the drugs that save your family.
GET A CLUE and GET A GRIP.
Learn a little about what is going on inside - visit their website - (http://www.bio.org) before you fall prey to the bogus sentimentality the media throws at you.
Its another case of business taking credit for everything good that scientists do, and using it as an excuse to fuck the world up more.
GET A CLUE and GET A GRIP.
Learn a little about what is going on inside - visit their website - (http://www.bio.org) before you fall prey to the bogus sentimentality the media throws at you.
Its another case of business taking credit for everything good that scientists do, and using it as an excuse to fuck the world up more.
To the person who wrote "get a grip" -- thanks for demonstrating the sheer ignorance that this protest is based on and proving all the naysayers right.
I am a GMO activist and ALSO a biotech researcher and I went to the jobs fair for this conference. This conference is for RESEARCHERS, SCIENTISTS and yes, also marketing people. If you think you are out there "fighting evil" you are just stupid. You are out there trying to terrorize decent people like me who do medical research in labs trying to make things better for the earth and other humans.
I agree, GMO policies are off and Monsanto should go to hell. But attacking research scientists is about the dumbest way to do it.
Thanks for your ignorance.
I am a GMO activist and ALSO a biotech researcher and I went to the jobs fair for this conference. This conference is for RESEARCHERS, SCIENTISTS and yes, also marketing people. If you think you are out there "fighting evil" you are just stupid. You are out there trying to terrorize decent people like me who do medical research in labs trying to make things better for the earth and other humans.
I agree, GMO policies are off and Monsanto should go to hell. But attacking research scientists is about the dumbest way to do it.
Thanks for your ignorance.
It's business.
The fact is, biotech does have a number of positive uses and applications. And if this were the focus of much research, there would be no protests.
However, in the hands of corporations, this research turns from being solely for the benefit of mankind, and instead becomes a profit motivator. (Note: See The Corporation to learn more about how corporations work, and how they are legally mandated to focus not on mankind, but on the bottom line for thier shareholders).
That being said, there are a number of people on the Left who don't always articulate this in the heat of a protest.
Please come back out and join us, and think about what biotech does that is supportable (like health research) and also what harm it can cause. (For example, Montsanto creating drugs to make cows make more milk and the health effects on the cows themselves, and potential health risks for those who drink the milk from them)
The fact is, biotech does have a number of positive uses and applications. And if this were the focus of much research, there would be no protests.
However, in the hands of corporations, this research turns from being solely for the benefit of mankind, and instead becomes a profit motivator. (Note: See The Corporation to learn more about how corporations work, and how they are legally mandated to focus not on mankind, but on the bottom line for thier shareholders).
That being said, there are a number of people on the Left who don't always articulate this in the heat of a protest.
Please come back out and join us, and think about what biotech does that is supportable (like health research) and also what harm it can cause. (For example, Montsanto creating drugs to make cows make more milk and the health effects on the cows themselves, and potential health risks for those who drink the milk from them)
I live in brisbane, which is where genentech is located. Genentech employs probably half of the working population of brisbane, which is a very small town outside of SF. Almost everyone working for genentech in this town is going to that conference. these people aren't making money off it. They are going to hear presentations and learn about new things so they can better do their jobs. They are REQUIRED to go by their employers. These are middle of the road worker drones who are just working there to feed their families.
It's one thing to protest GMO and the money making conglomerates that organized this thing. It's another thing to throw rocks and slurs at normal people just trying to make a living, the very people you are supposed to be protesting to protect. It's a fine line and one we all need to be aware of. We need to make sure our message is clear, that we are attacking the right targets, and that the average person can tell what those targets are if we want the people to be with us.
If we are saying that we are there for the people, we need to make sure it's not the people who are bearing the brunt of our attacks.
It's one thing to protest GMO and the money making conglomerates that organized this thing. It's another thing to throw rocks and slurs at normal people just trying to make a living, the very people you are supposed to be protesting to protect. It's a fine line and one we all need to be aware of. We need to make sure our message is clear, that we are attacking the right targets, and that the average person can tell what those targets are if we want the people to be with us.
If we are saying that we are there for the people, we need to make sure it's not the people who are bearing the brunt of our attacks.
- - - It's another thing to throw rocks and slurs at normal people just trying to make a living, the very people you are supposed to be protesting to protect. - - -
NICE TRY! What a LAME excuse moron! ahhhhhhhhh...... the poor lil' overweight lazy ameriKKKans are "just doing their jobs" huh? So where the guards at the prison camps in Nazi Germany dipshit pacifist twit!
I am 33... a New Yorker (survivor of 9/11).... White.... American born male.... I am also a former U.S. Marine.
I ask U dipshit..... sice U R defending people just doing their jobs..... Why dont U just join the US Army and go to Iraq. TRUST US.... No ONE will try and use your argument and defend you from the Iraqi freedom fighters whacking your dumb ass over there!
NICE TRY! What a LAME excuse moron! ahhhhhhhhh...... the poor lil' overweight lazy ameriKKKans are "just doing their jobs" huh? So where the guards at the prison camps in Nazi Germany dipshit pacifist twit!
I am 33... a New Yorker (survivor of 9/11).... White.... American born male.... I am also a former U.S. Marine.
I ask U dipshit..... sice U R defending people just doing their jobs..... Why dont U just join the US Army and go to Iraq. TRUST US.... No ONE will try and use your argument and defend you from the Iraqi freedom fighters whacking your dumb ass over there!
For more information:
http://www.EmpireWatch.org
EmpireWatch, you compare biotech researchers with Nazi's and you wonder why people consider you ignorant? I guess you would.
SF Chronicle says it like it is. Black bloc and "globalization" style protests look ridiculous when aimed at knowledge, science, technology. Maybe you should burn some books while you're at it to erase the "forbidden knowledge"?
Yeah, there are policy shifts needed -- as in every industry. But going out in the streets like lunatics and gyrating at science researchers is absurd and ignorant. Whereas most people are sympathetic with leftist protests against world capital, occupation or war, poverty, or whatever, these fringe protests only show how close-minded and sheltered from the world some left-oriented "scenes" are.
I'm glad that most of the left in San Francisco has utterly ignored these protests. In a city where literally hundreds of thousands have turned out for legitimate leftist demonstrations, it is a true testament to the fringe and obscure nature of the hipster-primitivist camp that only 150 - 200 people turned out for a 6-month-long mobilization.
SF Chronicle says it like it is. Black bloc and "globalization" style protests look ridiculous when aimed at knowledge, science, technology. Maybe you should burn some books while you're at it to erase the "forbidden knowledge"?
Yeah, there are policy shifts needed -- as in every industry. But going out in the streets like lunatics and gyrating at science researchers is absurd and ignorant. Whereas most people are sympathetic with leftist protests against world capital, occupation or war, poverty, or whatever, these fringe protests only show how close-minded and sheltered from the world some left-oriented "scenes" are.
I'm glad that most of the left in San Francisco has utterly ignored these protests. In a city where literally hundreds of thousands have turned out for legitimate leftist demonstrations, it is a true testament to the fringe and obscure nature of the hipster-primitivist camp that only 150 - 200 people turned out for a 6-month-long mobilization.
Although I agree that the workers required to go shouldn't have slurs thrown at them, the fact is..many companies are training there workers to make bigger profits for the shareholders.
Have you actually researched what some of these companies do?
I'm not saying that the research is all bad, and that bio-tech research should just be shut down. But I think it is important to look at the whole issue, the reprecussions to society, and who biotech effects ourselves, and our children.
I think the illusion of the benevolent corporation trying to help humanity is not the whole truth. And that is the question that is ignored in lieu of "progress".
Do some research on Montsantos and milk and then tell me how good these research firms are and how they're looking out for our best interest. Or shall we talk about that wonderful defolient Agent Orange?
Have you actually researched what some of these companies do?
I'm not saying that the research is all bad, and that bio-tech research should just be shut down. But I think it is important to look at the whole issue, the reprecussions to society, and who biotech effects ourselves, and our children.
I think the illusion of the benevolent corporation trying to help humanity is not the whole truth. And that is the question that is ignored in lieu of "progress".
Do some research on Montsantos and milk and then tell me how good these research firms are and how they're looking out for our best interest. Or shall we talk about that wonderful defolient Agent Orange?
Eric Festo, some people tune into this list to get a sense of the range and breadth of the issue...I acutally had a far more though provoking experience reading the post that started this than I did reading your rant. Please don't throw your weight around that way. It's disruptive, and it doesn't in any way promote clear headed thinking about the nature and motivations of bio-tech. It's no substitution for debate and as a woman, I must say, I wouldn't feel safe at all in a room with you if you acted like that- I would feel like i was in the room with an crazed ex-marine. Is that what you want? Chill out.
I have many many questions about the future of bio-technology, and (in response to the post just above mine) disagree with essentialist interpratations of the culture of Direct Action and its practitioners and feel that this morning message was somewhat fuzzy AND am interested the de-brief that I hope follows this week of protests. And I look forward to reading others opinions...but not their rants.
I have many many questions about the future of bio-technology, and (in response to the post just above mine) disagree with essentialist interpratations of the culture of Direct Action and its practitioners and feel that this morning message was somewhat fuzzy AND am interested the de-brief that I hope follows this week of protests. And I look forward to reading others opinions...but not their rants.
So I was thinking...
The problem a few people talked about was that biotechnology operates under the for-profit, and thus not-for-lots-of0other-things. The root of this sentiment is probably not in the decisions that the corporations make, but that they are made by a few for the many under an assumption akin to enlightened despotism--an arrogant proposition unpalatable to those who value autonomy, etc....
I propose that my problem with biotech has nothing to do with whether or not it is "used for good," but that the same sort of thinking that corporations employ to subjegate people for the sake of profit is being applied to nature for the sake of science.
Perhaps our arrogant susceptibility for science and ill-founded belief that we can harness/control/even "understand" nature have helped lead us to this point in the first place; cancer being one example. (please don't attack my lack of specifics as ignorance but attempt to listen as one might in a dialouge).
On another note...So what happens when all terminal diseases are cured, will we have conquered death (or nature) then? And what of the "negatives" that have been wrought in our quest for such an imaginary dominance?
The problem a few people talked about was that biotechnology operates under the for-profit, and thus not-for-lots-of0other-things. The root of this sentiment is probably not in the decisions that the corporations make, but that they are made by a few for the many under an assumption akin to enlightened despotism--an arrogant proposition unpalatable to those who value autonomy, etc....
I propose that my problem with biotech has nothing to do with whether or not it is "used for good," but that the same sort of thinking that corporations employ to subjegate people for the sake of profit is being applied to nature for the sake of science.
Perhaps our arrogant susceptibility for science and ill-founded belief that we can harness/control/even "understand" nature have helped lead us to this point in the first place; cancer being one example. (please don't attack my lack of specifics as ignorance but attempt to listen as one might in a dialouge).
On another note...So what happens when all terminal diseases are cured, will we have conquered death (or nature) then? And what of the "negatives" that have been wrought in our quest for such an imaginary dominance?
Frankly, I go to protests like this expecting to have serious disagreements with some of the people in the protest, but I go anyhow.
Getting a nuanced argument out during a protest is quite difficult. Basically, if you add qualifiers to your chants and statements no one will listen to you.
Also, I noticed several people giving interviews to the news media and they seemed to offer a more cogent analysis of the protest than the chanting in the street. (For example, one person said that they wanted the community of scientists to determine the future of Biotech and not corporations.)
Protests aren't logical dispositions or reasoned arguments, and often events can seem ironic at best, but sometimes protests do work. Sometimes they can even change the world.
Getting a nuanced argument out during a protest is quite difficult. Basically, if you add qualifiers to your chants and statements no one will listen to you.
Also, I noticed several people giving interviews to the news media and they seemed to offer a more cogent analysis of the protest than the chanting in the street. (For example, one person said that they wanted the community of scientists to determine the future of Biotech and not corporations.)
Protests aren't logical dispositions or reasoned arguments, and often events can seem ironic at best, but sometimes protests do work. Sometimes they can even change the world.
You aren't trying to shut down research, but this website has proclaimed for weeks that you all will try to shut down a research conference -- which is a PART of research. This angry mob of pagans and malcontents looks more like a Puritan witch hunt hell bent on destroying what they don't understand rather than anything I want to be associated with.
Eric: if you want to play the one-up-manship hardship game, I can play that and more. But all your credentials don't really matter here. What is the point of mentioning that you are a 9/11 survivor? To get more credibility.
Panda: I agree with your assessment of the companies training their people to make more of a profit, etc. But still, to take out aggressions on people just trying to make a living, is a risky position, because people not directly participating in the protests don't always see the greater reaching reasons, and write the whole thing off as just a bunch of kids with nothing better to do. I don't only say this based on my observations, but also based on current discussion about this on many email lists, irc channels, and in person.
But I also think it is pretty telling that most of the left hasn't really turned out for this mobilization.
Mr. Cranky: I agree that I dont always see eye-to-eye at most protests with everyone there, but I think that it is all the more important that our message be clear. We can't hope to change anything if we continue to alienate most of the people we are trying to speak to. Going to a protest with a questionable application of a questionable message only reinforced stereotypes of the radical left being crazy, ignorant, and hellbent only on destruction.
Panda: I agree with your assessment of the companies training their people to make more of a profit, etc. But still, to take out aggressions on people just trying to make a living, is a risky position, because people not directly participating in the protests don't always see the greater reaching reasons, and write the whole thing off as just a bunch of kids with nothing better to do. I don't only say this based on my observations, but also based on current discussion about this on many email lists, irc channels, and in person.
But I also think it is pretty telling that most of the left hasn't really turned out for this mobilization.
Mr. Cranky: I agree that I dont always see eye-to-eye at most protests with everyone there, but I think that it is all the more important that our message be clear. We can't hope to change anything if we continue to alienate most of the people we are trying to speak to. Going to a protest with a questionable application of a questionable message only reinforced stereotypes of the radical left being crazy, ignorant, and hellbent only on destruction.
unsafe in a room with me??????
I'm really disturbed by U PC creeps here on the west coast... Really sad bunch of gate-keepers you are.
This is in insane and totally sick society we are living in today and the FACTS are showing that the system is breaking from within (thats where you "lefties" as you call yourselves come in I guess?
Realize that that by "giving my credentials" I was attempting to show you that as a poster I am not some "black-Bloc" kid... albeit I TOTALLY support their tactics just is I support ALL tactics.
To the dip-shit that stated I was comparing the "researches" to "Nazis".... wake the hell up and learn to read! I said they were following the "doing my job" rhetoric/defense like the "GURADS" (is what I said) were in the concentration camps!
Now I know you were all (as I was) educated in the LIE known as the ameriKKKan educational system but let's NOT forget.... the "GUARDS" were NOT Nazis.... They were "regular army"... regular citizen soldiers.
You people and your peace love attitudes had better realize your gate-keeping hypocrisy. Ya better OWN it.
On one hand you want to defend and shield these simple job having folks but on the other hand I ask you this question...
Why don't you stand up and defend these zombified youths in the US military who are being scapegoated as the responsible ones for the prison abuse in Iraq? They are now being prosecuted and sent off to prison due to your gate-keeping rhetoric and actions.
Please! Go stand up for these little confused fascist killers... They were just doing their "job". Go defend them on your principals. What's that? I didn't hear you!
Sad... really sad and selfish the lot of you are. You don't see that these hippy-freak protesters were in FACT NOT protesting the individual attendees but the system!
too friggin bad if in this country, doing one's job involves some disruption and the forcing of hard internal questions being asked.... too bad! I dont really care! I dont care if that lady was just a hard working mom just doing her job!
Why does her personal life's comfort take precedence over the global picture? So are you saying that while she does her job she should not be FORCED to address just what exactly the end result of her activities are? I guess not right?
Makes me realize just exactly why so many ameriKKKans are FAT, LAZY. DUMB, APATHETIC, BROKE and DEPRESSED in astronomical proportions!
I'm really disturbed by U PC creeps here on the west coast... Really sad bunch of gate-keepers you are.
This is in insane and totally sick society we are living in today and the FACTS are showing that the system is breaking from within (thats where you "lefties" as you call yourselves come in I guess?
Realize that that by "giving my credentials" I was attempting to show you that as a poster I am not some "black-Bloc" kid... albeit I TOTALLY support their tactics just is I support ALL tactics.
To the dip-shit that stated I was comparing the "researches" to "Nazis".... wake the hell up and learn to read! I said they were following the "doing my job" rhetoric/defense like the "GURADS" (is what I said) were in the concentration camps!
Now I know you were all (as I was) educated in the LIE known as the ameriKKKan educational system but let's NOT forget.... the "GUARDS" were NOT Nazis.... They were "regular army"... regular citizen soldiers.
You people and your peace love attitudes had better realize your gate-keeping hypocrisy. Ya better OWN it.
On one hand you want to defend and shield these simple job having folks but on the other hand I ask you this question...
Why don't you stand up and defend these zombified youths in the US military who are being scapegoated as the responsible ones for the prison abuse in Iraq? They are now being prosecuted and sent off to prison due to your gate-keeping rhetoric and actions.
Please! Go stand up for these little confused fascist killers... They were just doing their "job". Go defend them on your principals. What's that? I didn't hear you!
Sad... really sad and selfish the lot of you are. You don't see that these hippy-freak protesters were in FACT NOT protesting the individual attendees but the system!
too friggin bad if in this country, doing one's job involves some disruption and the forcing of hard internal questions being asked.... too bad! I dont really care! I dont care if that lady was just a hard working mom just doing her job!
Why does her personal life's comfort take precedence over the global picture? So are you saying that while she does her job she should not be FORCED to address just what exactly the end result of her activities are? I guess not right?
Makes me realize just exactly why so many ameriKKKans are FAT, LAZY. DUMB, APATHETIC, BROKE and DEPRESSED in astronomical proportions!
But still, to take out aggressions on people just trying to make a living.....
yahh... I gues the Iraqis shouldn't whack the thugs from Black Water security that are just trying to make a living as well huh?
come on gate-keepers?
We are all talking about "degrees of seperation" here folks! Make sure you don't protest Cheney and has ties to war profiting companies ok. I mean... the poor sap is just trying to make a living right?
Dont protest NBC "news coverage" cause their parent company GE needs to make a living via their DoD contracts
yahh... I gues the Iraqis shouldn't whack the thugs from Black Water security that are just trying to make a living as well huh?
come on gate-keepers?
We are all talking about "degrees of seperation" here folks! Make sure you don't protest Cheney and has ties to war profiting companies ok. I mean... the poor sap is just trying to make a living right?
Dont protest NBC "news coverage" cause their parent company GE needs to make a living via their DoD contracts
Eric ... you sound literally insane. This is why the police have 2000 cops out for a protest of 50 people. Because who knows when one of you will go insane and try to hurt some innocent scientist or researcher -- again.
<< you sound literally insane. This is why the police have 2000 cops out for a protest of 50 people. Because who knows when one of you will go insane and try to hurt some innocent scientist or researcher -- again.
yah... thats right! dont address any of my question. U R the insane... U R the apathetic.
Those are the Brave kids out there! misguided in tactics yes maybe. but much braver.
and dont worry about me... the day i decide on "direct action" it wont be against any "innocents".
yah... thats right! dont address any of my question. U R the insane... U R the apathetic.
Those are the Brave kids out there! misguided in tactics yes maybe. but much braver.
and dont worry about me... the day i decide on "direct action" it wont be against any "innocents".
<<<This is why the police have 2000 cops out for a protest of 50 people
no... the REASOn there are those Thugs... Opps! I meant cops is that theya re there to "protect and serve" their corporate masters.
I suggest you examine the origins of the modern day police forces and see that their roots are based out of a corporate manifestation. Designed to squash labor and to protect the corporate assets. Nothing more nothing less. the cops are house niggas and slaves just like you.
I guess you would have us all believe that they have shed that founding principal right?
no... the REASOn there are those Thugs... Opps! I meant cops is that theya re there to "protect and serve" their corporate masters.
I suggest you examine the origins of the modern day police forces and see that their roots are based out of a corporate manifestation. Designed to squash labor and to protect the corporate assets. Nothing more nothing less. the cops are house niggas and slaves just like you.
I guess you would have us all believe that they have shed that founding principal right?
Ignoring the flame war and trying to get back to the initial post:
First off, let me offer my sympathies both on your father's illness and on what sounds like a really tough morning that brought up a lot of painful stuff. And I applaud you for sharing your thoughts as you think critically about it.
I think that since Seattle, there's been a lot of talk about "shutting down" various events, and it's not useful. Partly because when we don't do so, our protests are considered a failure, but on a deeper level for reasons that you've pointed out. The WTO or the IMF are specirfic institutions that do lots of harm and represent larger corporate systems of which they are parts. The biotech industry, on the other hand, is an industry which both fills a desperate need (by creating medicines) but also does harm in its pursuit of profits (GM foods, patenting of seeds and other life forms, etc.). To use the blunt tactic and language of shutting it down on something like this does not do it justice and is not a strategy to win.
I have another comment I posted at http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2004/06/1696079_comment.php#1696096 which I won't repost here which has some of my thoughts on this in more detail. Take care, and thanks again for writing.
First off, let me offer my sympathies both on your father's illness and on what sounds like a really tough morning that brought up a lot of painful stuff. And I applaud you for sharing your thoughts as you think critically about it.
I think that since Seattle, there's been a lot of talk about "shutting down" various events, and it's not useful. Partly because when we don't do so, our protests are considered a failure, but on a deeper level for reasons that you've pointed out. The WTO or the IMF are specirfic institutions that do lots of harm and represent larger corporate systems of which they are parts. The biotech industry, on the other hand, is an industry which both fills a desperate need (by creating medicines) but also does harm in its pursuit of profits (GM foods, patenting of seeds and other life forms, etc.). To use the blunt tactic and language of shutting it down on something like this does not do it justice and is not a strategy to win.
I have another comment I posted at http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2004/06/1696079_comment.php#1696096 which I won't repost here which has some of my thoughts on this in more detail. Take care, and thanks again for writing.
I actually think that there are some great arguments to be had over the pace of techknowlogy and ethics and biotechcorp. But you don't find good discussions in the streets and often you don't find them here on indymedia.
Is science right? Being against science gives you the strange bedfellows of the christian right, being gungho for science drops you in with a purely analytical gang. Neither are groups of people I want to be seen with. I think the perspective of being against the future is honorable, but how many people who hold these values selectively use technology for their own ends. Would they have protested the people creating the technology that I am using right now? Computers are a terrible environmental waste, and are a posion to the earth and probably us.
I was kinda convinced that the RTC was a good idea. But I am not sure I understand now, why and how this is going to impact things. This really seems like it is really about capitalism not the science. If it is about capitalism, then there should probably more that deals with that specifically.
I think it is worth people going out for the G8 solidarity demo though. That seems pretty clear, the G8 are no friends to anyone but the rich and the police states...
Is science right? Being against science gives you the strange bedfellows of the christian right, being gungho for science drops you in with a purely analytical gang. Neither are groups of people I want to be seen with. I think the perspective of being against the future is honorable, but how many people who hold these values selectively use technology for their own ends. Would they have protested the people creating the technology that I am using right now? Computers are a terrible environmental waste, and are a posion to the earth and probably us.
I was kinda convinced that the RTC was a good idea. But I am not sure I understand now, why and how this is going to impact things. This really seems like it is really about capitalism not the science. If it is about capitalism, then there should probably more that deals with that specifically.
I think it is worth people going out for the G8 solidarity demo though. That seems pretty clear, the G8 are no friends to anyone but the rich and the police states...
also came back to sactown. we witnessed a disturbing event @ Peace Rally on Saturday wherein Black Bloc harassed the pigs that were in retreat!! (TWICE!) it almost seemed that they were trying to goad the pigs into an attack. Have been protesting war since 1965 PEACEFULLY.. young men & women with the courage & heart to lay them selves on the line are a necessary HUGE important part of what we are trying to do [stop corporate rule] sometimes (as in Black Panthers) ranks are infiltrated by govt operatives that cause very ugly attacks, which will sublate public sympathy. Mobs/ Groups cannot be subverted into malicious actions if they remain committed to NON-VIOLENCE at all costs, which can mean: beatings, chemical burns, torture and sometimes death for the peaceful witnesses - ask Martin Luther King if he would condone the action and proceed from there, sit quietly-sing loudly, be strong & courageous and let them do what they will...which is bad enough without instigation from within our own ranks.
in Love & Peace Miss Kitty, conspiracy therapist
in Love & Peace Miss Kitty, conspiracy therapist
take your medications, fredrick...aka...miss kitty.
Ahhh , yes good observations. Everything is not so black and white. Should we risk possible eternal manipulation of DNA and long security so that people can live lonnger and get better at ALL cost. That is the question who are we accountable to. Just one or two people with specific illnesses or the entire universe. I agree that no matter how many teach-in's its really hard to get good discussion going that is not pitted against one another...its not helpful. People were allowed in there and we could have signed up to go in to and maybe get educated before we assume like a bunch of stpid kids. We follow a few organizers and organizations who are so wrapped up in preparing for protest that facts get shut out. I dont want to see GMO food or ANY research and I dont give a personal crap about that lady crying or your dad...I do care about this planet as a whole and I am willing to hear out all options....so what do we do? - Jamie
that was so typical it was ridiculous. I was already on that march twice before, same tactics, same execution, same result but not for me.
At least it boosted the number of arrests and made the street action part of the RTC seem more effective in numbers. There were a pretty good number of people there for there only being a couple weeks of organizing. So cheers anyway, the 130 arrests help get the rtc on democracy now.
At least it boosted the number of arrests and made the street action part of the RTC seem more effective in numbers. There were a pretty good number of people there for there only being a couple weeks of organizing. So cheers anyway, the 130 arrests help get the rtc on democracy now.
This experience has made me feel more thoughtful than anything else...I am once again reminded of the importance of staying on ones toes, intellectually… One of the claims made by bio –tech that I find fascinating (in a totally frustrating way) is their claim to have the capacity to improve food availability and supply. “Late Victorian Holocausts” is an excellent book that looks at the onset of monoculture in British colonial possessions like Ireland and India and the disastrous results for the inhabitants of those countries…good to know that history if Monsanto’s (and other's) ideas are to be endowed with a broader /ancestry genealogy, and not just seen as an outgrowth of the weird science of the post post cold war world…I don’t think many of those attending the protests would be fooled by this (I know I’m preaching to the choir, in other words, but whatev), I just wonder how many of us are prepared to talk knowledgably about systems of crop production distribution, stockpiling…in other words, how prominent is this rebuttal in the endless rebuttals against bio-tech’s equally endless claims that they are making more from less for more?
I believe most of the general public, when they pay attention to the skirmishing between protesters and industry claims, use to this claim to excuse themselves from further concern.
I believe most of the general public, when they pay attention to the skirmishing between protesters and industry claims, use to this claim to excuse themselves from further concern.
nessie, you presume to know what mistakes i am making? go ahead, tell me.
[incidentally, i agree with building institutions over ad hoc projects.]
ironically though, you bash "lifestyle" anarchism and then tell us about how you lived in collective houses and worked in what, a worker owned co-op? hello? what do you think the lifestyle types you bash are doing?
anyway, as far as political institutions go, you probably fail to notice that the good that comes of your efforts may well be neutralized by the fact that your being an asshole can wreck the collective.
like i said and like you conveniently IGNORED: if you have something useful to say, WRITE A FUCKING BOOK. you work at a bookstore, you know what books are, I presume. write your wisdom down for the masses rather than cramming it down their throats in a rather abrasive way. separate your wisdom from your shitty personality, and it'll digest easier.
as for ownership, you have an individualist/libertarian streak a mile long. no, im not referring to your last post, or the one before. im referring to all the shit you write. you are always talking about how proud you are of escaping consequences, running around loose, about people wrecking your projects, wrecking the political scene, its clear you feel entitled to some kind of ownership/leadership/mentorship role. maybe the problem is with you? maybe "collective" isnt the right way for you to go. maybe you should be burying guns in the desert and living in a survivalist compound?
[incidentally, i agree with building institutions over ad hoc projects.]
ironically though, you bash "lifestyle" anarchism and then tell us about how you lived in collective houses and worked in what, a worker owned co-op? hello? what do you think the lifestyle types you bash are doing?
anyway, as far as political institutions go, you probably fail to notice that the good that comes of your efforts may well be neutralized by the fact that your being an asshole can wreck the collective.
like i said and like you conveniently IGNORED: if you have something useful to say, WRITE A FUCKING BOOK. you work at a bookstore, you know what books are, I presume. write your wisdom down for the masses rather than cramming it down their throats in a rather abrasive way. separate your wisdom from your shitty personality, and it'll digest easier.
as for ownership, you have an individualist/libertarian streak a mile long. no, im not referring to your last post, or the one before. im referring to all the shit you write. you are always talking about how proud you are of escaping consequences, running around loose, about people wrecking your projects, wrecking the political scene, its clear you feel entitled to some kind of ownership/leadership/mentorship role. maybe the problem is with you? maybe "collective" isnt the right way for you to go. maybe you should be burying guns in the desert and living in a survivalist compound?
this was not a bad thread, until nessie tried to make it all about him. And as much as I agree with this last person about nessie, you helped make it all about him. Just let him praddle on about whatever criticism he has of kids today. Somebody always has to comment, wait no he (any older guy syndrom) has to share his perspective. Everybody always wonders what does the authority on the subject say, maybe there should be a little nessie pop up screen that comments on everything. Despite what he claims, it is not constructive criticism, constructive criticism is followed by action. Taking direct action to make things more effective, try organizing, working with people directly. Don't just think you can get a free credibility pass for working on a very homogenious, anarchist scenester projects.
Nessie write a book, you will make some money and have your beliefs anchored for all history. Do it anonymously, like the book Direct Action, change names to protect the inocent and the guilty, whatever.
Nessie write a book, you will make some money and have your beliefs anchored for all history. Do it anonymously, like the book Direct Action, change names to protect the inocent and the guilty, whatever.
it's so cute watching history endlessly repeat itself. the old generation attempts to impart wisdom, the younger generation blows it off thinking they already know everything and is thus doomed to make the same mistakes. You people are acting like teenagers railing against your parents who are trying to help you avoid their mistakes. But wait, what am I talking about, you people ARE teenagers railing against whoever tries to point out that you may not in fact know everything there is to know about everything.
No wonder this scene can't get it together to pull off something more complicated than dancing in the streets for five mins before being arrested anymore.
No wonder this scene can't get it together to pull off something more complicated than dancing in the streets for five mins before being arrested anymore.
I have to pipe in here that I completely agree with nessie about tactics, self-criticism and practical activity. Although I do disagree with him about conspiracies and his sometime proclivity for macho chest thumping and self congratulation. Yet he doesn't come off with some of the looney tunes ideas that younger anarchists spout like some unthought-out morality based eternal truths--like middle class jesuits. And at best, he's trying to share his wisdom so we don't have to helplessly watch each new generation of pimply faced anarchos make exactly the same mistakes over and over again and then claim these utter failures as victories. It's admirable of nessie to be doing this. I too am fucking sick of the moral rants of half-digested pseudo critiques of those who seem barely out of the womb--or the suburbs, yet who rail on and on about slaying monsters while gradually becoming those very monsters they claim to want to be slaying. I don't mean to sound age-ist, because many young class warriors are much, much sharper than I was at their age. And this age-ism goes both ways as some arrogant young people ignore the history of past struggles, asserting their own identities and then making exactly the same failures.
Perhaps like nessie, I'd say "hey kid, try surviving on your own in this world and come back and talk to me in 10 years." And let's see how many of you sell out because you can hate civilization a lot easier when your folks are footing part of the bill or acting as your safety net. Which means that you're not going to live a healthy life fetishizing the eating of garbage out of a dumpster and wallowing in your lifestylist filth with other middle class runaways forever. You'll never escape your priviliged middle class aura--sure, sure you're "declasse"--that real working class people can smell a mile away. Some of my best friends are political refugees from the US-backed death squads in Central America. They know--and hate--oppression because they've lived it first hand. Also, they've stood up against it. But many of them work 2 or 3 jobs, which they hate, so that they can live decently. They support all working class struggles against exploitation. But when they see you professional activists stuck in your protest ghettos, they see you as class enemies as you party in the streets that they have to clean up after you for sub-minimum wages. When they go on strike, you aren't there supporting them for the lamest reasons, like it doesn't get you on the nightly news broadcast or because it isn't direct action and doesn't offer the excitement of fighting the pigs and getting arrested.
So, my rant to all you protest junkies is to start being more self-critical and start seeing--and understanding--capital as a system exploiting all working people. Then a class analysis will make you see that you're celebrating your own alienation and need to look beyond the limitiation of just your affinity group and see that only a working class- based struggle can in any way threaten capitalism.
Vince.
Perhaps like nessie, I'd say "hey kid, try surviving on your own in this world and come back and talk to me in 10 years." And let's see how many of you sell out because you can hate civilization a lot easier when your folks are footing part of the bill or acting as your safety net. Which means that you're not going to live a healthy life fetishizing the eating of garbage out of a dumpster and wallowing in your lifestylist filth with other middle class runaways forever. You'll never escape your priviliged middle class aura--sure, sure you're "declasse"--that real working class people can smell a mile away. Some of my best friends are political refugees from the US-backed death squads in Central America. They know--and hate--oppression because they've lived it first hand. Also, they've stood up against it. But many of them work 2 or 3 jobs, which they hate, so that they can live decently. They support all working class struggles against exploitation. But when they see you professional activists stuck in your protest ghettos, they see you as class enemies as you party in the streets that they have to clean up after you for sub-minimum wages. When they go on strike, you aren't there supporting them for the lamest reasons, like it doesn't get you on the nightly news broadcast or because it isn't direct action and doesn't offer the excitement of fighting the pigs and getting arrested.
So, my rant to all you protest junkies is to start being more self-critical and start seeing--and understanding--capital as a system exploiting all working people. Then a class analysis will make you see that you're celebrating your own alienation and need to look beyond the limitiation of just your affinity group and see that only a working class- based struggle can in any way threaten capitalism.
Vince.
What you say makes sense but you are arguing against a point of view I dont see expressed on here or at the protest. Most people who attended the protest have jobs and many were not opposed to technology in general just the directions corporate biotech is taking.
Ignacio Chapela is hardly anti technology
http://www.mindfully.org/GE/2003/Ignacio-Chapela30jun03.htm
And Food First helped organized the protests but likewise are far from primitivist:
http://www.foodfirst.org/bioaction/activistsguide.php
There probably were some people who oppose all work and technology who took part on the protest but I didn't meet anyone who fit that description. Its a stereotype of the activist community that the biotech industry put out and its a shame to see activists on here acting as if that stereotype were real. Since I dont see anyone arguing for primitivism on this thread, it seems like a staw man argument to attack people who may not even exist.
Ignacio Chapela is hardly anti technology
http://www.mindfully.org/GE/2003/Ignacio-Chapela30jun03.htm
And Food First helped organized the protests but likewise are far from primitivist:
http://www.foodfirst.org/bioaction/activistsguide.php
There probably were some people who oppose all work and technology who took part on the protest but I didn't meet anyone who fit that description. Its a stereotype of the activist community that the biotech industry put out and its a shame to see activists on here acting as if that stereotype were real. Since I dont see anyone arguing for primitivism on this thread, it seems like a staw man argument to attack people who may not even exist.
so, seems there are a lot of self-proclaimed older anarchists wanting to offer patronly advice to the youngsters.
i think this lifestyle anarchism y'all are lashing out at is a straw man of your own creation. i think that there certainly are currents of anarchist "praxis" that deserve the condemnation you are heaping on them.
where i think nessie and his ilk (older class warriors who think that noone else is remaining true to the cause / everyone is failing to organize properly) fails is in tarring folks with a very broad brush and failing to understand what is really going on in the "scene" he is critiquing. he doesnt really know what is going on, and who is really trying to do what. all he does is increase his own alienation from the scene. sorry, but you gotta be close to something to critque it well.
in reality, keyboard warriors like nessie aren't the only ones who are having these epiphanies. many of us who are actually organizing street actions are evaluating them and agree with the weaknesses nessie points out... we arent stupid, inexperienced, and neither do we lack access to experienced folks.
i think this lifestyle anarchism y'all are lashing out at is a straw man of your own creation. i think that there certainly are currents of anarchist "praxis" that deserve the condemnation you are heaping on them.
where i think nessie and his ilk (older class warriors who think that noone else is remaining true to the cause / everyone is failing to organize properly) fails is in tarring folks with a very broad brush and failing to understand what is really going on in the "scene" he is critiquing. he doesnt really know what is going on, and who is really trying to do what. all he does is increase his own alienation from the scene. sorry, but you gotta be close to something to critque it well.
in reality, keyboard warriors like nessie aren't the only ones who are having these epiphanies. many of us who are actually organizing street actions are evaluating them and agree with the weaknesses nessie points out... we arent stupid, inexperienced, and neither do we lack access to experienced folks.
... writes:
"...many of us who are actually organizing street actions are evaluating them and agree with the weaknesses nessie points out... we arent stupid, inexperienced, and neither do we lack access to experienced folks."
Great. And it will be even more pleasing to see those evaluations and critiques realized. And I did attend countless planning meetings for all kinds of direct actions that misrepresented that term in that puppets and street theatre was about as "direct" as those actions got. It was boring when I first saw this circus form of protest and it's still lame today.
And just to show my age, I thought lots of the actions against the 1991 Gulf War were more fiery and militant than the actions last year, although the coordinated chaos of March 20, 2003 was impressive, but didn't seem to have any goals beyond protest. Not that the 1991 ones did either, but that's for another post. And neither of these went beyond the limitation of the anti-Vietnam War movement which took much longer to develop anyway. But that was a different era that I was too young to participate in.
I, again, agree with nessie that we've got to be uncompromisingly self-crititical and stop fucking reinventing the wheel. I will never again get arrested for stuff that was stupid to get arrested for 10 years ago. I think the anti-Vietnam War opposition in the Bay Area reached it's peak with the blockade of the Oakland Induction Center in the Stop the Draft Week in 1967. It also ran up against it's limitiations--which are the limitation of ALL protest politics. Which is: if you don't break out of the closed world of activism--the protest ghetto--and reach out to other working people, you're never going to get anywhere further that the front page of corporate media, which is a sad surrogate for real organizing. And if your only goal is to stop the war--or a conference or political summit meeting, without critiquing its innate relationship to capital, you're just being a de facto policy wonk--telling the system how to exploit more democratically and responsibly.This is regardless how militant and defiant you are in the streets. I disagree with nessie about so much, but when he says the struggle isn't between in the street between the 2 curbs, but in people's consciousness between their 2 ears, he couldn't be more right.
And for a macho--former Marine--thug like Eric to call us all Klansmen, as well as pulling this more-radical-than-thou regional chauvinism, shows that the movement needs to purge his disruptive type. He sounds more like a wanna be serial killer than an activist. And those dismissing others' subjective feelings are cut from the same cloth as Eric. Every voice needs to be heard. Otherwise, you just have the one-way blathering of ANSWER loudspeakers telling us what to do.
Vince
"...many of us who are actually organizing street actions are evaluating them and agree with the weaknesses nessie points out... we arent stupid, inexperienced, and neither do we lack access to experienced folks."
Great. And it will be even more pleasing to see those evaluations and critiques realized. And I did attend countless planning meetings for all kinds of direct actions that misrepresented that term in that puppets and street theatre was about as "direct" as those actions got. It was boring when I first saw this circus form of protest and it's still lame today.
And just to show my age, I thought lots of the actions against the 1991 Gulf War were more fiery and militant than the actions last year, although the coordinated chaos of March 20, 2003 was impressive, but didn't seem to have any goals beyond protest. Not that the 1991 ones did either, but that's for another post. And neither of these went beyond the limitation of the anti-Vietnam War movement which took much longer to develop anyway. But that was a different era that I was too young to participate in.
I, again, agree with nessie that we've got to be uncompromisingly self-crititical and stop fucking reinventing the wheel. I will never again get arrested for stuff that was stupid to get arrested for 10 years ago. I think the anti-Vietnam War opposition in the Bay Area reached it's peak with the blockade of the Oakland Induction Center in the Stop the Draft Week in 1967. It also ran up against it's limitiations--which are the limitation of ALL protest politics. Which is: if you don't break out of the closed world of activism--the protest ghetto--and reach out to other working people, you're never going to get anywhere further that the front page of corporate media, which is a sad surrogate for real organizing. And if your only goal is to stop the war--or a conference or political summit meeting, without critiquing its innate relationship to capital, you're just being a de facto policy wonk--telling the system how to exploit more democratically and responsibly.This is regardless how militant and defiant you are in the streets. I disagree with nessie about so much, but when he says the struggle isn't between in the street between the 2 curbs, but in people's consciousness between their 2 ears, he couldn't be more right.
And for a macho--former Marine--thug like Eric to call us all Klansmen, as well as pulling this more-radical-than-thou regional chauvinism, shows that the movement needs to purge his disruptive type. He sounds more like a wanna be serial killer than an activist. And those dismissing others' subjective feelings are cut from the same cloth as Eric. Every voice needs to be heard. Otherwise, you just have the one-way blathering of ANSWER loudspeakers telling us what to do.
Vince
For as long as I remember I have herad people talking about how every direct action that has taken place wasnt militant enough, how protesters need to break out of the protest ghetto, how we need to organize the community rather than just protesting etc...
Why doesnt teh talk ever lead to change? I dont think its because people are not listening.
There is a "more militant than thow" aspect to some direct action/civil disobedience critques that makes poeple ignore more thought out criticism. There are also issues related to how much people are willing to risk and what people think will alienate more than convince. Militant actions need to be carried out by small groups for security reasons and anyone complaining about things not happening could be carrying out the actions and the lack of action by the people complaining speaks louder than the complaints.
Community organizing is occuring but it tends to move in an NGO direction more than protest related activism. There are hundreds of groups working in communities in the Bay Area and a lot of the work is very positive. Its not very high profile so it doesnt get covered much, so protests probably bring people in and get them connected to these groups more than they take away from community activism. Huge protests (many organized like groups like ANSWER) are often people's first contact with the actvist community, once people plug in to other groups they may not ever return to a large protest but if the protests are seen as an entry point for organizing new poeple that doesnt really matter. The decline in size of protests is partly related to people who were not active showing up at huge protests because they had been away from activism for awhile. After going to a few protests some people stop comming back since they feel like they did their part. Others stop comming back because the protest allowed them to connect with other groups and since they are doing their part somewhere else, there isnt the need take a day to go to a large protest.
The "protest ghetto" is another interesting complaint. Large ANSWER protests are amazingly diverse with the majority of people showing up looking "normal" and not being part of the hippie or punk subcultures. More militant breakaway marchs tend to be pretty punk, but that seems pretty concious since flyers about the breakaways are mainly given out to kids at the protest who fit that profile. A militant march by a hundred or so people isnt going to really be able to do much when there are thousands of people on the streets so a lot of what breakaways are about is militant fashion, expressing anger, and having fun (not bad things); the punk subculture is based around similar themes hence the overrepresentation of one subculture.
The RTC protest had a lot of "lifestylist" looking people involved. That made sense, since encouraging people to live a more enviornmentally concious lifestyle fits with a focus on corporate agribusiness, corporate medicine and other themes of the protest. The protest could have focused on other themes but it was in response to a biotech conference so....
Why doesnt teh talk ever lead to change? I dont think its because people are not listening.
There is a "more militant than thow" aspect to some direct action/civil disobedience critques that makes poeple ignore more thought out criticism. There are also issues related to how much people are willing to risk and what people think will alienate more than convince. Militant actions need to be carried out by small groups for security reasons and anyone complaining about things not happening could be carrying out the actions and the lack of action by the people complaining speaks louder than the complaints.
Community organizing is occuring but it tends to move in an NGO direction more than protest related activism. There are hundreds of groups working in communities in the Bay Area and a lot of the work is very positive. Its not very high profile so it doesnt get covered much, so protests probably bring people in and get them connected to these groups more than they take away from community activism. Huge protests (many organized like groups like ANSWER) are often people's first contact with the actvist community, once people plug in to other groups they may not ever return to a large protest but if the protests are seen as an entry point for organizing new poeple that doesnt really matter. The decline in size of protests is partly related to people who were not active showing up at huge protests because they had been away from activism for awhile. After going to a few protests some people stop comming back since they feel like they did their part. Others stop comming back because the protest allowed them to connect with other groups and since they are doing their part somewhere else, there isnt the need take a day to go to a large protest.
The "protest ghetto" is another interesting complaint. Large ANSWER protests are amazingly diverse with the majority of people showing up looking "normal" and not being part of the hippie or punk subcultures. More militant breakaway marchs tend to be pretty punk, but that seems pretty concious since flyers about the breakaways are mainly given out to kids at the protest who fit that profile. A militant march by a hundred or so people isnt going to really be able to do much when there are thousands of people on the streets so a lot of what breakaways are about is militant fashion, expressing anger, and having fun (not bad things); the punk subculture is based around similar themes hence the overrepresentation of one subculture.
The RTC protest had a lot of "lifestylist" looking people involved. That made sense, since encouraging people to live a more enviornmentally concious lifestyle fits with a focus on corporate agribusiness, corporate medicine and other themes of the protest. The protest could have focused on other themes but it was in response to a biotech conference so....
Its great to call for more radical action but complaining about a lack of it doesnt make any sense unless you are at least trying to organize it yourself. Despite disliking many of the views and organizing tactics of ANSWER I dont see the point in even criticizing them (let alone RTS actions or breakaway marchs) when they do nothing to get in the way of other groups forming and organizing alternatives. People accuse ANSWER of coopting movements but there was a several month period without ANSWER protests and I didnt see this as something that allowed other groups to organize who where stifled by ANSWER.
As for lifestylism, I think the critique of lifestylism has become stale. San Francisco is full of many different subcultures that dont have a huge amount of interaction with each other. Large actions with diverse crowds showing up (like ANSWER or United for Peace protests) are possible but the subset of people who like (or are willing) to get arrested by participating in unpermitted marchs limits one to subcultures where arrest isnt a stigma or liability. Perhaps the limiting of unpermitted marchs to certain subcultures means other forms of radical action should occur but I havnt heard what those are. I do ocassionally hear "community organizing" as an alternative but thats already occurring and since breakaways and RTSs are not getting in the way of community organizing, I dont think they can be seen as being in opposition to each other.
Lifestylism is in some ways just a negative term used to mean life. People get burnt out and need to find ways to get food and live. Some people try to integrate political ideals into how they live. For some this may mean not crossing picket lines to go to stores one might normally frequent. To others it may mean trying to buy organic produce or shop at farmer's markets rather than buy from corporations. Consumer actions often do a lot to help the world and do make a difference even if the individual contribution is small.
The recent critique of lifestylism usually gets down to a view that a "mainstream" exists that is alienated by the different lifestyle of the alternative subculture ("If you all didnt look like unwashed hippies/punks maybe people woudl listen to you") But there isnt a "mainstream" in the Bay Area. No matter how one dresses one is going to alienate someone. One can try to have every activist look like the stereotype of the industrial white rural working class (perhaps like Michael Moore?) or have people try to act like they are from a minority culture they did not grow up in, but the harder you try the more fake you will look.
So what exactly is the critque of lifestylism? Is it that RTS actions are not drawing in more of specific groups? A street party surrounded by 1000 cops is going to draw in a pretty specific audience that isnt going to change much if people dress differently (spontaneous street parties and riots after festivals and sporting events do draw in different subcultures but with thousands of others around people dont feel the same level of risk) Unless one believes in vanguardism, complaints surrounding underrepresentation of any group should be responded to with questioning of why those specific groups one feels to be underrepresented are not themselves organizing similar actions. If existing protest actions are getting in the way of certain groups organizing themselves, then there is a legitimate problem. In most recent complaints about lifestylism that isnt the issue. Often those complaining personally have a dislike for a certain subculture and if that subculture were excluded (ie if people who looked like punks or hippies were banned from breakaway marchs) the actions would be small enough they couldnt occur. In other cases the case is made that others will be alienated but that still leaves the solution as vague (exclude the very people who are taking part in current activities in the hope that this will somehow open the group up to an abstract audience of various subcultures that themselves dont get along)
As for lifestylism, I think the critique of lifestylism has become stale. San Francisco is full of many different subcultures that dont have a huge amount of interaction with each other. Large actions with diverse crowds showing up (like ANSWER or United for Peace protests) are possible but the subset of people who like (or are willing) to get arrested by participating in unpermitted marchs limits one to subcultures where arrest isnt a stigma or liability. Perhaps the limiting of unpermitted marchs to certain subcultures means other forms of radical action should occur but I havnt heard what those are. I do ocassionally hear "community organizing" as an alternative but thats already occurring and since breakaways and RTSs are not getting in the way of community organizing, I dont think they can be seen as being in opposition to each other.
Lifestylism is in some ways just a negative term used to mean life. People get burnt out and need to find ways to get food and live. Some people try to integrate political ideals into how they live. For some this may mean not crossing picket lines to go to stores one might normally frequent. To others it may mean trying to buy organic produce or shop at farmer's markets rather than buy from corporations. Consumer actions often do a lot to help the world and do make a difference even if the individual contribution is small.
The recent critique of lifestylism usually gets down to a view that a "mainstream" exists that is alienated by the different lifestyle of the alternative subculture ("If you all didnt look like unwashed hippies/punks maybe people woudl listen to you") But there isnt a "mainstream" in the Bay Area. No matter how one dresses one is going to alienate someone. One can try to have every activist look like the stereotype of the industrial white rural working class (perhaps like Michael Moore?) or have people try to act like they are from a minority culture they did not grow up in, but the harder you try the more fake you will look.
So what exactly is the critque of lifestylism? Is it that RTS actions are not drawing in more of specific groups? A street party surrounded by 1000 cops is going to draw in a pretty specific audience that isnt going to change much if people dress differently (spontaneous street parties and riots after festivals and sporting events do draw in different subcultures but with thousands of others around people dont feel the same level of risk) Unless one believes in vanguardism, complaints surrounding underrepresentation of any group should be responded to with questioning of why those specific groups one feels to be underrepresented are not themselves organizing similar actions. If existing protest actions are getting in the way of certain groups organizing themselves, then there is a legitimate problem. In most recent complaints about lifestylism that isnt the issue. Often those complaining personally have a dislike for a certain subculture and if that subculture were excluded (ie if people who looked like punks or hippies were banned from breakaway marchs) the actions would be small enough they couldnt occur. In other cases the case is made that others will be alienated but that still leaves the solution as vague (exclude the very people who are taking part in current activities in the hope that this will somehow open the group up to an abstract audience of various subcultures that themselves dont get along)
...bought more timeshares on Tahoe or Las Vegas condos for these fucking pigs? And don't you think that their families are still adhering to Geo. Bush's advice and are seeing that shopping is good for America? I'm sure the profits at the Pleasanton Home Depot is doing record business. As well as any suburban mall near a large concentration of SF cops.
I can never forget getting to the Financial District at about 6:00 AM on March 20, 2003 and seeing a motorcycle cop--ya know, the one of the traffic pigs on the Harleys, not the Tac Squad on the little nimble bikes--with an American flag doo-rag who he was leaning against his bike and reading the Pleasanton Gazette or whatever the fuck the local yokel paper there is called. I told him to go the fuck back to the suburbs and he didn't even flinch. I pointed it out to a friend, who doubled back and noticed that he was reading the classifieds for speed boats.
So, is that the highest expression of protest politics? Here, now, it is. I suggest to anyone wanting to continue the dog and pony protest politics show to read some history and see this WASN'T how the Wobblies in their various successes, like the Seattle Commune of 1919, or the working class in the 1934 Toledo/Minneapolis/SF General Strikes or the late 1930s Flint sit-down strikers won their many victories. It has nearly nothing to do with the rich history of class struggle, especially here in North America. I know I'm setting myself up for the "Sure Gramps, just STFU and keeping to yourself on your rocker" but the greatest weakness of stuff going on now is that it's so self-reflective that it's not any bigger than itself--which is about a couple hundred people who seem more concerned with fetishizing their "lifestyle" than reaching out and organizing.
Let's either organize with a goal beyond the protest, or take a breather and develop a strategy that doesn't just go from tactic to tactic. Our vision should inspire the type of activities we engage in, not the other way around where we keep doing tactics just because we can't imagine anything different. Sorry for the flippant-ness of this, but ALL POWER TO THE IMAGINATION. What we're doing not definitely isn't doing anything more than trickling more people into 850 Bryant and getting the pigs all kinds of lower-middle class trinkets.
If we make the strident claim to want to change the world, we definitely could do better.
Vince.
I can never forget getting to the Financial District at about 6:00 AM on March 20, 2003 and seeing a motorcycle cop--ya know, the one of the traffic pigs on the Harleys, not the Tac Squad on the little nimble bikes--with an American flag doo-rag who he was leaning against his bike and reading the Pleasanton Gazette or whatever the fuck the local yokel paper there is called. I told him to go the fuck back to the suburbs and he didn't even flinch. I pointed it out to a friend, who doubled back and noticed that he was reading the classifieds for speed boats.
So, is that the highest expression of protest politics? Here, now, it is. I suggest to anyone wanting to continue the dog and pony protest politics show to read some history and see this WASN'T how the Wobblies in their various successes, like the Seattle Commune of 1919, or the working class in the 1934 Toledo/Minneapolis/SF General Strikes or the late 1930s Flint sit-down strikers won their many victories. It has nearly nothing to do with the rich history of class struggle, especially here in North America. I know I'm setting myself up for the "Sure Gramps, just STFU and keeping to yourself on your rocker" but the greatest weakness of stuff going on now is that it's so self-reflective that it's not any bigger than itself--which is about a couple hundred people who seem more concerned with fetishizing their "lifestyle" than reaching out and organizing.
Let's either organize with a goal beyond the protest, or take a breather and develop a strategy that doesn't just go from tactic to tactic. Our vision should inspire the type of activities we engage in, not the other way around where we keep doing tactics just because we can't imagine anything different. Sorry for the flippant-ness of this, but ALL POWER TO THE IMAGINATION. What we're doing not definitely isn't doing anything more than trickling more people into 850 Bryant and getting the pigs all kinds of lower-middle class trinkets.
If we make the strident claim to want to change the world, we definitely could do better.
Vince.
"How much taking a street can actually accomplish, is a separate issue, and one that really, really, really needs to be discussed. But you didn’t even *take* the damn street. You tried, but it didn’t work. They herded you like sheep. Sheep! If you want to be herded like sheep, go join the goddamn army. At least you’d be getting a paycheck. But from this, you ain’t getting jack shit but your name on a list. What’s the frikkin point? If you’re going to do something, do something effective. This is not effective."
well said nessie.... I have been thinking this for some time, but have yet to get a coherent argument together... we need better tactics for street engagement and we need them now... all we are doing is criminalizing ourselves and making a mockery of what we we could accomplish... protesting and marching for protests sake doesn't get us anywhere but in jail...
I would have to say that March 20ths action was much more together. Even though when folks had the chance they never took back the streets at the right moments... The only succesful breakaway that I have experienced was back when noone could find the recruitment center... And of course that wasn't that successful...
well said nessie.... I have been thinking this for some time, but have yet to get a coherent argument together... we need better tactics for street engagement and we need them now... all we are doing is criminalizing ourselves and making a mockery of what we we could accomplish... protesting and marching for protests sake doesn't get us anywhere but in jail...
I would have to say that March 20ths action was much more together. Even though when folks had the chance they never took back the streets at the right moments... The only succesful breakaway that I have experienced was back when noone could find the recruitment center... And of course that wasn't that successful...
Your points are well taken and obviously well intentioned.
The salient issue is never "attacking research scientists".
The salient issue is always attacking individual and corporate greed and avarice that makes a criminal profit as well as dictates the "market direction" from/of that research.
The criminal selfishness and greed that deliberately debase the inherent value of human endeavour in order to gain a personal illicit material/social profit from those efforts that in and of themselves have improved as well as further jeopardized the existence of humanity.
It is the corporate identity itself, in terms of it´s primary owners and executives, that are the individuals more than worthy of public castigation and judicial consequence.
Points such as yours are highly valuable and much needed. It is all too easy to allow ourselves to charge into positions which could taint us with the same stench of irrational disregard for the rights of others as that we are struggling to overcome.
The salient issue is never "attacking research scientists".
The salient issue is always attacking individual and corporate greed and avarice that makes a criminal profit as well as dictates the "market direction" from/of that research.
The criminal selfishness and greed that deliberately debase the inherent value of human endeavour in order to gain a personal illicit material/social profit from those efforts that in and of themselves have improved as well as further jeopardized the existence of humanity.
It is the corporate identity itself, in terms of it´s primary owners and executives, that are the individuals more than worthy of public castigation and judicial consequence.
Points such as yours are highly valuable and much needed. It is all too easy to allow ourselves to charge into positions which could taint us with the same stench of irrational disregard for the rights of others as that we are struggling to overcome.
It is easy to see why a research scientist serving the interests of the likes of Monsanto, Philip Morris, or other corporate entities of a similar intent would be the first one to understand why such a large and growing population of our global citizenry is becoming more adamant in their justifiable demands with regard to the criminal activities of the international corporate oligarch.
You made it for them to sell for a profit so who would know better?
Which brings me to the point after reviewing your message of fear and loathing...since you already know the intent of the peoples will is correct ("...Monsanto can go to hell...") yet the methods used are at times both inappropriate and extreme, why not feel the need instead for you of all people to further explain the difference between an individual, any individual outside the corporate executive, and that executive itself? The difference between an individual whose intention is research to further human development and the individual whose intention is to make the largest profit in the shortest time at any human cost or social/environmental sacrifice?
It is difficult to overarch one´s disgust for the methods or results caused by the actions of others in order to understand that their intentions are good.
What you say is vitally important to the cause, and your research and efforts are more than commendable. Do you see the inordinate power for constructive change that you personally and all other research scientists and staff possess?
You made it for them to sell for a profit so who would know better?
Which brings me to the point after reviewing your message of fear and loathing...since you already know the intent of the peoples will is correct ("...Monsanto can go to hell...") yet the methods used are at times both inappropriate and extreme, why not feel the need instead for you of all people to further explain the difference between an individual, any individual outside the corporate executive, and that executive itself? The difference between an individual whose intention is research to further human development and the individual whose intention is to make the largest profit in the shortest time at any human cost or social/environmental sacrifice?
It is difficult to overarch one´s disgust for the methods or results caused by the actions of others in order to understand that their intentions are good.
What you say is vitally important to the cause, and your research and efforts are more than commendable. Do you see the inordinate power for constructive change that you personally and all other research scientists and staff possess?
to be fair, i think nessie said STEP ONE in the title of his post...
I am pretty sure that the people that organized the West Coast G8/rts action are working on longer term things than just street actions. Steet actions are a public expression of things that people are doing that aren't so flashy. I still think they are worth something, they are a public expression of resistance. You don't know how much people in other parts of amerika look to places like san francisco to find validation for their feelings of resistance. It is a shame when people get arrested, it is a waste of time and energy, and in a weird way validates over policing. I think we are kinda up against the wall here in amerika, and expressing resistance in what ever form we can-should be persued. If you don't like what you see, go out and make your own news.
things that I think are worth considering are:
Is it important to express international solidarity?
How do you express that clearly if not in the streets?
How do you create structures or working groups that are open enough that you can work with new people?
How do you build a movement towards class war, when most people don't recognise class as determining factor of their oppression? (they believe the american dream of class mobility)
If we live in a culture that doesn't recognise class oppresion, how do movements avoid being pigeonholed as being lifestylist, subcultural, or just a scene?
things that I think are worth considering are:
Is it important to express international solidarity?
How do you express that clearly if not in the streets?
How do you create structures or working groups that are open enough that you can work with new people?
How do you build a movement towards class war, when most people don't recognise class as determining factor of their oppression? (they believe the american dream of class mobility)
If we live in a culture that doesn't recognise class oppresion, how do movements avoid being pigeonholed as being lifestylist, subcultural, or just a scene?
Even the New York Times is bored:
For more information:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/13/politics...
But, you are assuming your readers HAVE a modicum of intelligence! waaaaaaaaaaaait a minute, let's not be that presumptuous!
Nessie,
Your comments with regard to the need for a sustainable logistical/communications/infrastructural platform are both well founded and entirely correct.
The opposition is more than aware of the inherent weaknesses of "popular front" movements and consequently all steps are taken as early as possible in many different venues in order to ensure their demise prior to reaching what I choose to call "critical mass", ie, a level of mass appeal, mass outreach, an established, easily recognizable and publicly acceptable profile. By the time most historical pf´s have reached this stage, their operations have long since been infiltrated, subverted, and effectively disarmed.
The glaring tactical and strategic weaknesses come not from the actual capabilities of the public, but rather from the civil social structure itself. One does not win early battles of any nature against the oligarch with civilian, or undisciplined, unfocused rabble. Whether the rabble is well intentioned or not is irrelevant.
Whether or not the planet survives, and as a distant second, we as a species survive is the issue. Is relevant. Shortsighted, morally and ethically challenged (and largely ineffective) corporate owners and leadership will, without a doubt, be our entire undoing lest measures are taken to offset the results of extremely poor management ability at the highest levels of society.
This should be obvious.
Unconnected, or worse, poorly connected activities with little or no strategic/tactical planning are not sufficient as a means of effecting lasting and constructive change, although such efforts are always of partial benefit to the overall cause, both locally and abroad.
Stand alone or simultaneous multiple actions demand coordination and stable supports in order to be effective.
I at least greatly appreciate your clear understanding of the largest hindrance to developing the popular movement into a mass social movement across the Americas.
A movement of mutes?
The people have no, or little voice. What voice they have is used to further corporate goals thru corporate media manipulation of the message, as and when needed.
A separate tactical communications network is critical to mission success.
A separate and largely invisible strategic network equally so.
Development of strategic and thereafter regional reserves of a varying nature is long overdue.
The networks of which I speak are not "talk shows", such as we have here as witnessed by the brocaded content of the material...they are self sacrifice personified. They are work till you drop and then get up and work some more houses of self doubt, anguish, fear, loneliness....and commitment to values greater than ones own breath, or the sound of ones own voice.
Anyone not prepared for this level of commitment should not apply.
Your points seem to discuss developing a stable foundation for a functional, instead of merely popular, underground. This is a long overdue and very much welcomed insight.
I for one will greatly appreciate being able to speak with you in more depth regarding the specific tasks at hand as often as possible.
Your comments with regard to the need for a sustainable logistical/communications/infrastructural platform are both well founded and entirely correct.
The opposition is more than aware of the inherent weaknesses of "popular front" movements and consequently all steps are taken as early as possible in many different venues in order to ensure their demise prior to reaching what I choose to call "critical mass", ie, a level of mass appeal, mass outreach, an established, easily recognizable and publicly acceptable profile. By the time most historical pf´s have reached this stage, their operations have long since been infiltrated, subverted, and effectively disarmed.
The glaring tactical and strategic weaknesses come not from the actual capabilities of the public, but rather from the civil social structure itself. One does not win early battles of any nature against the oligarch with civilian, or undisciplined, unfocused rabble. Whether the rabble is well intentioned or not is irrelevant.
Whether or not the planet survives, and as a distant second, we as a species survive is the issue. Is relevant. Shortsighted, morally and ethically challenged (and largely ineffective) corporate owners and leadership will, without a doubt, be our entire undoing lest measures are taken to offset the results of extremely poor management ability at the highest levels of society.
This should be obvious.
Unconnected, or worse, poorly connected activities with little or no strategic/tactical planning are not sufficient as a means of effecting lasting and constructive change, although such efforts are always of partial benefit to the overall cause, both locally and abroad.
Stand alone or simultaneous multiple actions demand coordination and stable supports in order to be effective.
I at least greatly appreciate your clear understanding of the largest hindrance to developing the popular movement into a mass social movement across the Americas.
A movement of mutes?
The people have no, or little voice. What voice they have is used to further corporate goals thru corporate media manipulation of the message, as and when needed.
A separate tactical communications network is critical to mission success.
A separate and largely invisible strategic network equally so.
Development of strategic and thereafter regional reserves of a varying nature is long overdue.
The networks of which I speak are not "talk shows", such as we have here as witnessed by the brocaded content of the material...they are self sacrifice personified. They are work till you drop and then get up and work some more houses of self doubt, anguish, fear, loneliness....and commitment to values greater than ones own breath, or the sound of ones own voice.
Anyone not prepared for this level of commitment should not apply.
Your points seem to discuss developing a stable foundation for a functional, instead of merely popular, underground. This is a long overdue and very much welcomed insight.
I for one will greatly appreciate being able to speak with you in more depth regarding the specific tasks at hand as often as possible.
Divisive?
Your choice of communicative method ensures that your input will be disregarded.
Is this your best? Fight harder!
Your choice of communicative method ensures that your input will be disregarded.
Is this your best? Fight harder!
Reagan, dumb as dirt, was called brilliant because he articulated his appalling vision in a way that made a lot of people support it and much more for the sheer like of him.
You guys are all so selfconsciously brilliant and no one understands or likes you and, daresay, viceversa.
Now, why are the bad guys so fucking far ahead at this point in history?
You guys are all so selfconsciously brilliant and no one understands or likes you and, daresay, viceversa.
Now, why are the bad guys so fucking far ahead at this point in history?
On many issues "we" are winning. All the stuff about Reagan in recent weeks should make that pretty clear. Remember Meese. Remember when public opinions polls were solidly homophobic and the current talk of gay marriage would not have been possible. Remember when the US supported aparthied South Africa. Remember Marcos, Suharto, Pinochet, death squads in El Salvador... The current wars are a major setback but these days the US has to at least pretend to support women's rights, elected government and freedom of expression (there was not even a pretext of those things when the US backed Pinochet or the Shah of Iran) 911 and the Patriot Act allowed the government to gain some abilities when it comes to cracking down on activists but people have pushed back and on a positive note, the religious right seems a little quieter now (can anyone think of any previous time in US history when self proclaimed right-wingers accused their enemies of being sexist, homophobic or antiSemitic?).
Nah, it aint that folks are stupid, just disruptive... It's preatty easy to ignore the disruptive ones.
"Fortunately, we don’t have to create or, in most cases even acquire, enough tactical communications gear to get started. It’s be nice to have more equipment, and we will. But in the meantime, we can use cell phone trees, SMS and text messaging to keep each other informed on the steet. A group individuals needs to come together to commit to provide the real time tactical intelligence that protestors needed to avoid being outmaneuvered. At least some individuals in this group should have bicycles, so they could act as scouts behind police lines."
One thing I have noticed though, is that there is a lack of communication not because the technology isn't there. But instead, because there is usually alot of folks who aren't plugged in etc. for something like this to happen. Unless , of course, that there should be a more focused, experienced group of individuals coordinating this effort.
Phone trees are a good idea but SMS messaging doesn't really have the robustness needed for a real-time network such as this. I have signed up on numerous occasions to the SMS alert network and have found it utterly useless cause generally I have witnessed most of what took place or was already aware.
Equipment would be good. A network of radios would be very useful for real-time communication.
Of course, specifics wouldn't be good in a public forum such as this. But, it is pretty easy to think of what could make communications much better.
This is all taking the fact for granted that breakaways are effective, although I honestly do not find that much practicality or effectiveness are accomplished with them. They generally do radicalize folks more, so perhaps a better organizational structure is needed in order to protect folks. But, when does a loosely-connected network turn into a cadre as the weather underground was? Becoming inneffective to the point that folks are not encouraged to join?
It seems more PRACTICALITY and DIFFERENT FORMS of tactics are needed.
"Fortunately, we don’t have to create or, in most cases even acquire, enough tactical communications gear to get started. It’s be nice to have more equipment, and we will. But in the meantime, we can use cell phone trees, SMS and text messaging to keep each other informed on the steet. A group individuals needs to come together to commit to provide the real time tactical intelligence that protestors needed to avoid being outmaneuvered. At least some individuals in this group should have bicycles, so they could act as scouts behind police lines."
One thing I have noticed though, is that there is a lack of communication not because the technology isn't there. But instead, because there is usually alot of folks who aren't plugged in etc. for something like this to happen. Unless , of course, that there should be a more focused, experienced group of individuals coordinating this effort.
Phone trees are a good idea but SMS messaging doesn't really have the robustness needed for a real-time network such as this. I have signed up on numerous occasions to the SMS alert network and have found it utterly useless cause generally I have witnessed most of what took place or was already aware.
Equipment would be good. A network of radios would be very useful for real-time communication.
Of course, specifics wouldn't be good in a public forum such as this. But, it is pretty easy to think of what could make communications much better.
This is all taking the fact for granted that breakaways are effective, although I honestly do not find that much practicality or effectiveness are accomplished with them. They generally do radicalize folks more, so perhaps a better organizational structure is needed in order to protect folks. But, when does a loosely-connected network turn into a cadre as the weather underground was? Becoming inneffective to the point that folks are not encouraged to join?
It seems more PRACTICALITY and DIFFERENT FORMS of tactics are needed.
Smart mobs and radical direct actions only have an effect on the world in terms of how they are covered by the media. Outmaneuvering the police in the streets is a fun game to play but sometimes it just looks like a game. Radical actions can be effective in that they can send a stronger message to people than less radical actions (the message being that people are really pissed rather than just disagree with something). Radical actions can also hurt the economy and create feelings of lack of secuirty in the general population either making it easier to get people to support change ("the war at home wont end until the war ends overseas") or making them support a right wing crackdown (Reagan's popularity in California during his crackdown on Berkeley). While destabilization of society partly worked during the Viet Nam protests, most people left or right who have to worry about making money to survive get alienated pretty quickly by any group that seems to be aiming to hurt the economy on purpose. Too much focus on short term tactics often makes people lose sight of long term strategy (will a few hundred protesters outmaneuvering the SFPD help end war or Capitalism or just result in a justification for more police spending, spying and training). Radical fashion (which is what a lot of direct action really amounts to) brings in a lot of kids but pushes out a lot of people who can't relate.
We do need better equipment for communications but that should be outwardly aimed communications not communications within the movement. Cool techy equipment to coordinate protests is much less effective than radio stations, TV stations, websites and newspapers. More high tech communications and the feeling that people who take part in protests can "out-smart" the police is likely to bring in a new crowd of people who like the feeling of personal power they get, but in many ways its similar to attracting kids with militant images of people in black wearing balaclavas or gas masks. There is a myth that the fire and tear-gas images from Seattle brought in a huge number of radical activists but the reality is that the only large globalization protests have included mostly NGO and unions and while WWF style images do get an audience in the mainstream media the message is often lost. Bringing in teenagers and 20-something males by playing to their desire to be high-tech special forces soldiers works in army ads but thats because once your enlisted your stuck. Most boys grow out of their desire to be soliders and while some end up online trying to be armchair generals to a nonexistant army, a movement based off of testosterone usually loses sight of changing public opinion as the primary objective in any social justice struggle.
We do need better equipment for communications but that should be outwardly aimed communications not communications within the movement. Cool techy equipment to coordinate protests is much less effective than radio stations, TV stations, websites and newspapers. More high tech communications and the feeling that people who take part in protests can "out-smart" the police is likely to bring in a new crowd of people who like the feeling of personal power they get, but in many ways its similar to attracting kids with militant images of people in black wearing balaclavas or gas masks. There is a myth that the fire and tear-gas images from Seattle brought in a huge number of radical activists but the reality is that the only large globalization protests have included mostly NGO and unions and while WWF style images do get an audience in the mainstream media the message is often lost. Bringing in teenagers and 20-something males by playing to their desire to be high-tech special forces soldiers works in army ads but thats because once your enlisted your stuck. Most boys grow out of their desire to be soliders and while some end up online trying to be armchair generals to a nonexistant army, a movement based off of testosterone usually loses sight of changing public opinion as the primary objective in any social justice struggle.
"...instead of allowing ourselves to be distracted by stupid people, etc., we focus on what we as smart people, can do..."
Well there it is. Some animals are more equal than others.
News flash: "throng rule" sounds distinctly unappealing. People want their leadership to be accountable.
Your real insult to intelligence is in consistently ignoring this contradiction at the heart of your movement's soul.
Well there it is. Some animals are more equal than others.
News flash: "throng rule" sounds distinctly unappealing. People want their leadership to be accountable.
Your real insult to intelligence is in consistently ignoring this contradiction at the heart of your movement's soul.
Dont take Nessie to represent an entire movement or even most Anarchists
"Dont take Nessie to represent an entire movement or even most Anarchists"
Either way, what is being discussed is pretty critical. Nessie is jaded, once you realize that you can get over it and actually discuss these points.
Either way, what is being discussed is pretty critical. Nessie is jaded, once you realize that you can get over it and actually discuss these points.
"None of these points matter if whatever organizing is achieved is undermined by its leadership"
It would be nice if you could elucidate what you mean by this point. "Leadership" can be viewed as many different things and equating to many different pictures of organization.
The "leadership" I think you are talking about really doesn't do much for our tactics. A "Taboo" subject, perhaps. But for a good reason.
Anyone can be a leader of their own actions.
It would be nice if you could elucidate what you mean by this point. "Leadership" can be viewed as many different things and equating to many different pictures of organization.
The "leadership" I think you are talking about really doesn't do much for our tactics. A "Taboo" subject, perhaps. But for a good reason.
Anyone can be a leader of their own actions.
"Anyone can be a leader of their own actions."
So what do all those swarming leaders owe to each other, by way of accountability? nevermind "the people." Where is consensus in a mob of leaders? What if one begs to differ?
As for those "taboo" leaders, last I checked they were still leading all the antiwar demos in SF. As far as that goes, at least they're clear about what they're doing. And so far at least, the rest of the left seems to have effectively accepted it, even though muttering about it is to be heard, why, right here on indybay.
A free people will have no taboo discussion subjects.
So what do all those swarming leaders owe to each other, by way of accountability? nevermind "the people." Where is consensus in a mob of leaders? What if one begs to differ?
As for those "taboo" leaders, last I checked they were still leading all the antiwar demos in SF. As far as that goes, at least they're clear about what they're doing. And so far at least, the rest of the left seems to have effectively accepted it, even though muttering about it is to be heard, why, right here on indybay.
A free people will have no taboo discussion subjects.
Exactly how many wars have "all the antiwar demos" actually stopped? Which ones? Be specific.
You are right in many cases.
To address some of your and other points made:
1. Forget telephones and telephone systems, unless you plan to use a lot of cardphones which happily cannot be traced to any specific owner. Still, this is too slow, and too clumsy.
I suggest another method. Quick, reliable, constantly switchable, constantly available for preplanned disinformation. Also rather cheap and expendable.
2. Even the "stupid" can be quite useful. It is even more useful to grasp that they themselves do not understand this fact of Machiavellian planning. Never, ever, sell the "stupid" as you call them, short. There are billions of individuals out there who would, given the opportunity to gain knowledge and insight, cease being "stupid" (don´t you actually mean
"ignorant"?).
Until they get that opportunity they are very handy indeed, just in other ways that´s all.
3. Regarding operational tactics:
ALWAYS prestage information, vetted and structured to suit the needs of the opposition, in ways that suit the activity itself best. You get the drift.
ALWAYS stage alternative sites, with alternative....groups of individuals....for obvious reasons. Check above.
PLAN to deliberately arrange for the opposition to fall on their faces as often as possible, as publicly as possible. It is too easy to arrange continuous reruns of "The Keystone Cops" for all those so amused, as an example.
DISTRIBUTE bogus whatevers to all and sundry so deserving. Hilarious.
FEED the prostituted media what they want to hear. Slam after print.
BIKES are good.
PRESET watches are good.
SCOUTS are good. Make sure they always are seen as something else, and rotate the profile constantly.
FLARES in various colours are good.
NETS (large ones) are very handy.
TRANQUILIZERS and their propellants are useful. In large numbers. From prestaged locations to preselected targets of opportunity.
WIND MACHINES (portable) can be effective at times.
SPANISH KNIGHTS are cheap, easy to use, and devastatingly effective against....vehicles and bikes. Horses, on the other hand are too smart to step on a field of them. Heh Heh.
BEES are a true friend of the street. They work best with high winds.
SMOKE (in extremely large quantities of a non toxic variety) has altered the balance in too many battles to mention here.
MEDICAL TEAMS are great; Check this; at certain locations, aid tents/facilities are erected with a great deal of fanfare for the media and public, by the chosen "leader profiles" for the particular event. Aid teams move with the demonstration, are in direct comm with the base. Every time a demonstrator is assaulted, make every attempt to aid them immediately, on live cam. Hearts and Minds? We can make them weep and like it.
FALSE PLANS in the possession of certain individuals is good.
SURVEILLANCE of selected individuals for the purpose of public awareness is excellent.
SAFE HOUSES are required.
RESERVES of various item is a prerequisite to mission sucess.
SECONDLINE groups are quite handy. They can perform tasks that free up FRONTLINE groups for other, more demanding functions.
As an example, what will it take to get huge masses of those 44 million Americans that have no health care or coverage into the streeets of the four largest cities in the US continuously (24/7) until the current regime defines/enacts a humanitarian health policy for all citizens?
In the meantime, strangely enough, Phillip Morris HQ burned to the ground....with no casualties.
ESTABLISH once and for all the clear understanding in yourselves that like it or not, you cannot even go to the toilet right without a modicum of self discipline. Do we need discipline? Do we need structure? Do we need organization?
Do you need that toilet sometimes?
Who do you want to follow? Those you yourself locally choose to trust and respect in a common cause or just some lame idea of your own about "personal freedom uber alles" poorly defined? How far do you think you will get? How far have you gotten?
Ask yourself where we would be as a species today if individuals did not recognize the need to sacrifice at least SOME of the perquisites of individuality SOME of the time for the sake of that whole of which we are all individually a part?
Leaders, which are so sorely needed in any venue, not as oligarchs but as inspiration, guidance, knowledge, experience, and personal commitment, are made every day in every circumstance.
To decry leadership is to refute your own ability to reason. Go ahead, piss yourself, see if I care. Get the point?
Check some of the above, relate it to how to protect leadership, and solve the issue of the methods used by the opposition to thwart the development of stronger cadres prior to their reaching maturity.
We are ALL the "leader", ALL the time. You, I, we call all the shots, every minute of every day. Because we, as individuals, as citizens, as taxpayers, as THE PEOPLE, choose. We simply have got to come to an understanding between ourselves that we have to alternate continuously between the knowledge we ourselves possess and the knowledge of others within the group, as needed. Leadership roles are established based on the tasks to be performed, and shift constantly based on the actualities of the moment or event.
See it like this:
you do not ever, in your wildest dreams, want to let me anywhere near your vehicle if it needs repair...trust me on this one. But you would be wise to allow me to shoulder the burden of how to move/store/chart/distribute masses of people or objects great distances in the most effective manner possible, using vehicles, should that need arise.
Everyone has something to give to the cause simply because they are human and are the cause itself.
Three Cheers for the Republic of Earth, of, by, and for the People!
To address some of your and other points made:
1. Forget telephones and telephone systems, unless you plan to use a lot of cardphones which happily cannot be traced to any specific owner. Still, this is too slow, and too clumsy.
I suggest another method. Quick, reliable, constantly switchable, constantly available for preplanned disinformation. Also rather cheap and expendable.
2. Even the "stupid" can be quite useful. It is even more useful to grasp that they themselves do not understand this fact of Machiavellian planning. Never, ever, sell the "stupid" as you call them, short. There are billions of individuals out there who would, given the opportunity to gain knowledge and insight, cease being "stupid" (don´t you actually mean
"ignorant"?).
Until they get that opportunity they are very handy indeed, just in other ways that´s all.
3. Regarding operational tactics:
ALWAYS prestage information, vetted and structured to suit the needs of the opposition, in ways that suit the activity itself best. You get the drift.
ALWAYS stage alternative sites, with alternative....groups of individuals....for obvious reasons. Check above.
PLAN to deliberately arrange for the opposition to fall on their faces as often as possible, as publicly as possible. It is too easy to arrange continuous reruns of "The Keystone Cops" for all those so amused, as an example.
DISTRIBUTE bogus whatevers to all and sundry so deserving. Hilarious.
FEED the prostituted media what they want to hear. Slam after print.
BIKES are good.
PRESET watches are good.
SCOUTS are good. Make sure they always are seen as something else, and rotate the profile constantly.
FLARES in various colours are good.
NETS (large ones) are very handy.
TRANQUILIZERS and their propellants are useful. In large numbers. From prestaged locations to preselected targets of opportunity.
WIND MACHINES (portable) can be effective at times.
SPANISH KNIGHTS are cheap, easy to use, and devastatingly effective against....vehicles and bikes. Horses, on the other hand are too smart to step on a field of them. Heh Heh.
BEES are a true friend of the street. They work best with high winds.
SMOKE (in extremely large quantities of a non toxic variety) has altered the balance in too many battles to mention here.
MEDICAL TEAMS are great; Check this; at certain locations, aid tents/facilities are erected with a great deal of fanfare for the media and public, by the chosen "leader profiles" for the particular event. Aid teams move with the demonstration, are in direct comm with the base. Every time a demonstrator is assaulted, make every attempt to aid them immediately, on live cam. Hearts and Minds? We can make them weep and like it.
FALSE PLANS in the possession of certain individuals is good.
SURVEILLANCE of selected individuals for the purpose of public awareness is excellent.
SAFE HOUSES are required.
RESERVES of various item is a prerequisite to mission sucess.
SECONDLINE groups are quite handy. They can perform tasks that free up FRONTLINE groups for other, more demanding functions.
As an example, what will it take to get huge masses of those 44 million Americans that have no health care or coverage into the streeets of the four largest cities in the US continuously (24/7) until the current regime defines/enacts a humanitarian health policy for all citizens?
In the meantime, strangely enough, Phillip Morris HQ burned to the ground....with no casualties.
ESTABLISH once and for all the clear understanding in yourselves that like it or not, you cannot even go to the toilet right without a modicum of self discipline. Do we need discipline? Do we need structure? Do we need organization?
Do you need that toilet sometimes?
Who do you want to follow? Those you yourself locally choose to trust and respect in a common cause or just some lame idea of your own about "personal freedom uber alles" poorly defined? How far do you think you will get? How far have you gotten?
Ask yourself where we would be as a species today if individuals did not recognize the need to sacrifice at least SOME of the perquisites of individuality SOME of the time for the sake of that whole of which we are all individually a part?
Leaders, which are so sorely needed in any venue, not as oligarchs but as inspiration, guidance, knowledge, experience, and personal commitment, are made every day in every circumstance.
To decry leadership is to refute your own ability to reason. Go ahead, piss yourself, see if I care. Get the point?
Check some of the above, relate it to how to protect leadership, and solve the issue of the methods used by the opposition to thwart the development of stronger cadres prior to their reaching maturity.
We are ALL the "leader", ALL the time. You, I, we call all the shots, every minute of every day. Because we, as individuals, as citizens, as taxpayers, as THE PEOPLE, choose. We simply have got to come to an understanding between ourselves that we have to alternate continuously between the knowledge we ourselves possess and the knowledge of others within the group, as needed. Leadership roles are established based on the tasks to be performed, and shift constantly based on the actualities of the moment or event.
See it like this:
you do not ever, in your wildest dreams, want to let me anywhere near your vehicle if it needs repair...trust me on this one. But you would be wise to allow me to shoulder the burden of how to move/store/chart/distribute masses of people or objects great distances in the most effective manner possible, using vehicles, should that need arise.
Everyone has something to give to the cause simply because they are human and are the cause itself.
Three Cheers for the Republic of Earth, of, by, and for the People!
Maybe we should try it your way next time. People don't come to demos because they're waiting for, um, *that*.
Mm-hmm. Very smart.
Mm-hmm. Very smart.
My thanks to the invisible "....get the masses moving..." for your comments. Short and inconsequential as they were, they at the least represent an anonymous effort.
Perhaps you would care to elucidate further with regard to
"*that*"?
Just for you.
Perhaps you would care to elucidate further with regard to
"*that*"?
Just for you.
>"stupid (don´t you actually mean “ignorant’”?).
No, I mean stupid. It is easy to tell them apart. The stupid people are the ones who cling to their ignorance. The harder they cling, the stupider they are. They get in the way. They waste time. They screw up the plan. They get the people who hang out with then hurt and in trouble. The ignorant people are the ones who haven’t learned this yet.
We should educate the ignorant, starting with ourselves. We should avoid the stupid, so that they don’t get us hurt or in trouble. We don’t want to get hurt or in trouble. That would be stupid. So would staying ignorant.
We don’t want to do that any more, do we?
>Exactly how many wars have "all the antiwar demos" actually stopped? Which ones? Be specific.
No answer? Well, I guess it was a rhetorical question, then. The answer is obvious anyhow. The answer is none, not even a little one. A case can be made that the flurry of demos all across the country, just before Big Pine, may have prevented a dramatic escalation of the contra war. But even that is open to interpretation. What is not open to interpretation is that none of huge and simultaneous demonstrations, that took place all across the globe, prevented the Invasion of Iraq. Thirteen million people marched on a single day. Thousands were arrested in this town alone. It did no good whatsoever. Iraq was invaded anyway.
What, if anything, did we learn from this?
Could more effective use of communications by demonstrators have made a difference?
How?
No, I mean stupid. It is easy to tell them apart. The stupid people are the ones who cling to their ignorance. The harder they cling, the stupider they are. They get in the way. They waste time. They screw up the plan. They get the people who hang out with then hurt and in trouble. The ignorant people are the ones who haven’t learned this yet.
We should educate the ignorant, starting with ourselves. We should avoid the stupid, so that they don’t get us hurt or in trouble. We don’t want to get hurt or in trouble. That would be stupid. So would staying ignorant.
We don’t want to do that any more, do we?
>Exactly how many wars have "all the antiwar demos" actually stopped? Which ones? Be specific.
No answer? Well, I guess it was a rhetorical question, then. The answer is obvious anyhow. The answer is none, not even a little one. A case can be made that the flurry of demos all across the country, just before Big Pine, may have prevented a dramatic escalation of the contra war. But even that is open to interpretation. What is not open to interpretation is that none of huge and simultaneous demonstrations, that took place all across the globe, prevented the Invasion of Iraq. Thirteen million people marched on a single day. Thousands were arrested in this town alone. It did no good whatsoever. Iraq was invaded anyway.
What, if anything, did we learn from this?
Could more effective use of communications by demonstrators have made a difference?
How?
I see your point. There is, to be sure, a difference between the two and now I understand your meaning.
The stupid, to me, should be cultivated carefully, and their stupidity studied in order to actively use it to advantage.
Other than that, true enough.
As for which demos actually in and of themselves stopped any wars, of course one can isolate the actual demonstration activity from the rest of the social impact cycle caused by regime activities and have a valid argument concerning the minimal value of demos as a vehicle for ending criminal aggression.
The actual value of demos, to me, is not whether or not they themselves stop any wars, which is highly unlikely until one can manage to create sustained civil nonparticipation.
in other words,
walking down a street in large groups is great as a means of expression of group will;
it always great to be able to express the peoples OPINION.
That is why street expressions of OPINION do not in and of themselves suffice to get the job done, unless general civil strikes are developed across the board from those early demos...the regime doesnt have to listen because the demo form itself does not warrant a large enough threat to have to bother....until we can manage....
development of demonstrating the peoples WILL by simply refusing to participate in any manner with the daily routine of society until such time as the regime returns to the rule of established law, which will CERTAINLY gain rapid results.
-- because it is a demonstration of the peoples POWER over temporary oligarchs, their schemes, their finances, and the sordid little personal goals of their....ignorant....executive. (well, I am trying to be nice).
I suppose some people are now rapidly calculating, if they are as ... stupid ... as i have been, how long they could last. Not to worry, the oligarchian demand for profitability and continued extortion makes them rather shortwinded when up against people who are quite willing to maintain themselves on the bare essentials...while every corporate oligarch bleeds billions in losses every single hour of every single day of the action...
demonstrating by creating the perception that it could in fact be dangerous to go near large banks, cash machines, or any other facility/area so chosen is also quite certain to generate results that will carry an inordinate impact.
--because it is a demonstration of the peoples ability to INTIMIDATE the oligarch and it´s interests at will, whenever, and wherever chosen.
The point i am trying to make is that it is not that street demonstrations are or are not effective; as stand alones they never will be effective enough, as long as they are only that. Taken into account with other issues, other methods of demonstrating, as a sustained global or national or even regional/state campaign, they may not stop wars, but they do carry a large amount of public influence. Which must be progessed, further channeled in order to successfully establish policy changes.
As an example:
-- millions of people filling Washington DC for days on end will most certainly have a strong impact on the public and executive will, don´t you agree?
Hence my willingness to listen to/talk with you about--
--discipline
--organization
--structure
--leadership roles
--logistics
--psyops
--tactics
--strategy
Being but a poor yokel of limited means and even more limited education, originally from the Ozarks, i make no claim to any knowledge, however. Nor do i make any recommendations, i just share my thinking and convictions.
The stupid, to me, should be cultivated carefully, and their stupidity studied in order to actively use it to advantage.
Other than that, true enough.
As for which demos actually in and of themselves stopped any wars, of course one can isolate the actual demonstration activity from the rest of the social impact cycle caused by regime activities and have a valid argument concerning the minimal value of demos as a vehicle for ending criminal aggression.
The actual value of demos, to me, is not whether or not they themselves stop any wars, which is highly unlikely until one can manage to create sustained civil nonparticipation.
in other words,
walking down a street in large groups is great as a means of expression of group will;
it always great to be able to express the peoples OPINION.
That is why street expressions of OPINION do not in and of themselves suffice to get the job done, unless general civil strikes are developed across the board from those early demos...the regime doesnt have to listen because the demo form itself does not warrant a large enough threat to have to bother....until we can manage....
development of demonstrating the peoples WILL by simply refusing to participate in any manner with the daily routine of society until such time as the regime returns to the rule of established law, which will CERTAINLY gain rapid results.
-- because it is a demonstration of the peoples POWER over temporary oligarchs, their schemes, their finances, and the sordid little personal goals of their....ignorant....executive. (well, I am trying to be nice).
I suppose some people are now rapidly calculating, if they are as ... stupid ... as i have been, how long they could last. Not to worry, the oligarchian demand for profitability and continued extortion makes them rather shortwinded when up against people who are quite willing to maintain themselves on the bare essentials...while every corporate oligarch bleeds billions in losses every single hour of every single day of the action...
demonstrating by creating the perception that it could in fact be dangerous to go near large banks, cash machines, or any other facility/area so chosen is also quite certain to generate results that will carry an inordinate impact.
--because it is a demonstration of the peoples ability to INTIMIDATE the oligarch and it´s interests at will, whenever, and wherever chosen.
The point i am trying to make is that it is not that street demonstrations are or are not effective; as stand alones they never will be effective enough, as long as they are only that. Taken into account with other issues, other methods of demonstrating, as a sustained global or national or even regional/state campaign, they may not stop wars, but they do carry a large amount of public influence. Which must be progessed, further channeled in order to successfully establish policy changes.
As an example:
-- millions of people filling Washington DC for days on end will most certainly have a strong impact on the public and executive will, don´t you agree?
Hence my willingness to listen to/talk with you about--
--discipline
--organization
--structure
--leadership roles
--logistics
--psyops
--tactics
--strategy
Being but a poor yokel of limited means and even more limited education, originally from the Ozarks, i make no claim to any knowledge, however. Nor do i make any recommendations, i just share my thinking and convictions.
Precisely.
It has never yet been a very good tactical plan to engage the opposition on their chosen ground, ie, the street in this instance.
Street resistance/demonstrations can be developed, and can be successful, but the ultimate result, to the broader mass of uncertain and by this time probably seriously concerned people across society is the point of view that the prostituted media wants presented;
--hooligans fighting the defenders of law and order
...instead of the actual issues that brought people into the streets in the first place.
usage of the net gives us a suddenly infinite capability to appear anywhere, anytime, with any message, to any group,
It also gives a better ability to rapidly mobilize large forces at any given point, or upon any given issue. It does have to be developed that is certain.
But the fact remains, the tool is out there, which is something entirely new and gives a new twist to the H & M battlefield.
This opportunity will not last.
There are other ways the web is an asset to improved tactics;
Won´t show F911 at local theaters? No worries, broadcast the names of those theaters and their owners that are deliberately infringing the laws governing freedom of speech and assembly all across the web and see how many civil suits and/or class action suits are filed against each one..., and then sit back and enjoy the show in the comfort and relative ease of your chosen surroundings...once again, on the web.
It is going to be a very, very interesting summer & fall this year, don´t you agree?
It has never yet been a very good tactical plan to engage the opposition on their chosen ground, ie, the street in this instance.
Street resistance/demonstrations can be developed, and can be successful, but the ultimate result, to the broader mass of uncertain and by this time probably seriously concerned people across society is the point of view that the prostituted media wants presented;
--hooligans fighting the defenders of law and order
...instead of the actual issues that brought people into the streets in the first place.
usage of the net gives us a suddenly infinite capability to appear anywhere, anytime, with any message, to any group,
It also gives a better ability to rapidly mobilize large forces at any given point, or upon any given issue. It does have to be developed that is certain.
But the fact remains, the tool is out there, which is something entirely new and gives a new twist to the H & M battlefield.
This opportunity will not last.
There are other ways the web is an asset to improved tactics;
Won´t show F911 at local theaters? No worries, broadcast the names of those theaters and their owners that are deliberately infringing the laws governing freedom of speech and assembly all across the web and see how many civil suits and/or class action suits are filed against each one..., and then sit back and enjoy the show in the comfort and relative ease of your chosen surroundings...once again, on the web.
It is going to be a very, very interesting summer & fall this year, don´t you agree?
the street is our turf. always has been, always will be. "whose streets?" is a dorky chant, but it's true. they belong to us, if we want them... cops are never comfortable on the street, in any numbers. we can be, with the right numbers and militancy. the reason that we are being outmaneuvered now is because we don't have that militancy and we don't have those numbers.
there is an interesting debate over what is the right time to launch street tactics that aim to disrupt the system. street tactics are not as appealing as tactics like a general strike, i agree with nessie on this. but they can effect a disruption with less people, so they permit militant mobilizations to press their issue and exact a cost.
the political and financial cost to SF, for example, of the RTC convergence, was large. that was only 300 people. does that cost translate into political gain for the RTC folx? i think there are a lot of problems with the RTC convergence and i think that as a result, no, it doesnt translate into gain. but at the same time, we always need to consider the costs of policing the protest! and we need to factor that into the analysis of strategies.
i think we are way too focused on the fact that police have owned the street in the recent past in SF. there is a reason street demos and unrest and rioting happen. such events have happened throughout history, and have triggered massive social upheavals. thats not going to change just because radical folk who want to organize a general strike think that recent street actions arent politically advantageous.
basically, i agree with certain bay area anarchists that we need effective organizational strategies and long term planning, but people who want these things are very focused on shutting down and redirecting the energy of other radicals in the scene who like to fuck shit up or live a lifestyle or dumpster dive or dance in the street or whatever.
let them be. you dont need them, and they will always exist. they are wholly USEFUL, in the long run, they will provide you with your boston massacres, in the short run they will provide a distraction for the police state while our organizations grow to critical mass. and anyway, bringing them into small organizing groups at the outset will only disrupt the dynamic and blur the focus on organizing work. theres a world of millions out there who are your target audience. why are the all-too-converted (kevin keating calls them the protest ghetto) such a precious audience that you neglect those masses of folks?
summary: if organizing is what you want to see, focus your energy on actually doing it instead of pressuring other radicals to change their ways and join you. if street actions are what you want to do, realize the limitations on the political gains you can make from the actions you are doing, and set clear goals that you can use to evaluate your effectiveness afterward.
there is an interesting debate over what is the right time to launch street tactics that aim to disrupt the system. street tactics are not as appealing as tactics like a general strike, i agree with nessie on this. but they can effect a disruption with less people, so they permit militant mobilizations to press their issue and exact a cost.
the political and financial cost to SF, for example, of the RTC convergence, was large. that was only 300 people. does that cost translate into political gain for the RTC folx? i think there are a lot of problems with the RTC convergence and i think that as a result, no, it doesnt translate into gain. but at the same time, we always need to consider the costs of policing the protest! and we need to factor that into the analysis of strategies.
i think we are way too focused on the fact that police have owned the street in the recent past in SF. there is a reason street demos and unrest and rioting happen. such events have happened throughout history, and have triggered massive social upheavals. thats not going to change just because radical folk who want to organize a general strike think that recent street actions arent politically advantageous.
basically, i agree with certain bay area anarchists that we need effective organizational strategies and long term planning, but people who want these things are very focused on shutting down and redirecting the energy of other radicals in the scene who like to fuck shit up or live a lifestyle or dumpster dive or dance in the street or whatever.
let them be. you dont need them, and they will always exist. they are wholly USEFUL, in the long run, they will provide you with your boston massacres, in the short run they will provide a distraction for the police state while our organizations grow to critical mass. and anyway, bringing them into small organizing groups at the outset will only disrupt the dynamic and blur the focus on organizing work. theres a world of millions out there who are your target audience. why are the all-too-converted (kevin keating calls them the protest ghetto) such a precious audience that you neglect those masses of folks?
summary: if organizing is what you want to see, focus your energy on actually doing it instead of pressuring other radicals to change their ways and join you. if street actions are what you want to do, realize the limitations on the political gains you can make from the actions you are doing, and set clear goals that you can use to evaluate your effectiveness afterward.
>the reason that we are being outmaneuvered now is because we don't have that militancy and we don't have those numbers.
During the protests against the invasion of Iraq we had the numbers. We were still out maneuvered. It took them two days to figure out our tactics, adapt, and trap us like fish in a net.
>they can effect a disruption with less people,
With European style tripods, it takes only one person per intersection to effect a blockade.
But again, what does it accomplish besides piss off a bunch of working class people who get stuck in traffic? What good does that do?
If we want to stop the war, we are going to have to physically disrupt the war machine. War industry workers need to strike and sabotage, soldiers need to mutiny, and the rest of us need to stop paying taxes. That requires mass organizing, not repetitive, ineffective street actions by an incestuous in crowd.
During the protests against the invasion of Iraq we had the numbers. We were still out maneuvered. It took them two days to figure out our tactics, adapt, and trap us like fish in a net.
>they can effect a disruption with less people,
With European style tripods, it takes only one person per intersection to effect a blockade.
But again, what does it accomplish besides piss off a bunch of working class people who get stuck in traffic? What good does that do?
If we want to stop the war, we are going to have to physically disrupt the war machine. War industry workers need to strike and sabotage, soldiers need to mutiny, and the rest of us need to stop paying taxes. That requires mass organizing, not repetitive, ineffective street actions by an incestuous in crowd.
i didn't say anything about "stopping the war". and i agree that we have been outmaneuvered in SF. see, you are refocusing on SF and recent/current events and particular tactics (blocking intersections) that really ignores the bulk of what I am talking about.
FYI: my opinion: 3.20.2003 worked fine. two days later, we didnt have the numbers, and the only people in the street were roving blocks that did NOT do what worked on the 20th. that had a lot to do with internal shit with DASW. this is nitpicking point, but chalking the protest fizzle up to police adaptation is ridiculous.
my point stands, the streets are always ours if we want them and we have the numbers. simple. proven over and over, everywhere else in the world - even where (if you think corrals are bad) police shoot people dead.
but i think your basic question is the right one to ask although I think you are too quick to say NO. question is, do we want the streets (and for what)?
FYI: my opinion: 3.20.2003 worked fine. two days later, we didnt have the numbers, and the only people in the street were roving blocks that did NOT do what worked on the 20th. that had a lot to do with internal shit with DASW. this is nitpicking point, but chalking the protest fizzle up to police adaptation is ridiculous.
my point stands, the streets are always ours if we want them and we have the numbers. simple. proven over and over, everywhere else in the world - even where (if you think corrals are bad) police shoot people dead.
but i think your basic question is the right one to ask although I think you are too quick to say NO. question is, do we want the streets (and for what)?
"let them be. you dont need them, and they will always exist. they are wholly USEFUL, in the long run, they will provide you with your boston massacres, in the short run they will provide a distraction for the police state while our organizations grow to critical mass. and anyway, bringing them into small organizing groups at the outset will only disrupt the dynamic and blur the focus on organizing work. theres a world of millions out there who are your target audience. why are the all-too-converted (kevin keating calls them the protest ghetto) such a precious audience that you neglect those masses of folks?
summary: if organizing is what you want to see, focus your energy on actually doing it instead of pressuring other radicals to change their ways and join you. if street actions are what you want to do, realize the limitations on the political gains you can make from the actions you are doing, and set clear goals that you can use to evaluate your effectiveness afterward."
great points...
I think there is alot of truth to the whole "obscuring the surveillance" idea. For instance, we should question why the state had so much protection for a rally which brought out around a thousand folks at any given time. What was this about?
I feel as though the answer to the question is they really do not know what is going on with organizing efforts. All this money and man-power in order to keep activists under surveillance and this is what they come up with? Of course, organizers were planning for many more to show up, but how can we as a community which the state looks to repress use this to our advantage?
Also, I think what nessie originally said is something that needs to be re-examined in this thread. How can we create a community outside of the dominant capitalist structure which can support resistance? It doesn't seem that most normal working folks would even think about alot of this unless there was a way out or an alternative support structure. Some sort of network is needed if we are to get anywhere on this subject.
A general strike sounds good. Care to explain how we could get rank and filers to defy beaurocratic leadership in order to accomplish this?
Of course, we can keep dressing up in all black, march around and spray-paint slogans like "Capitalism sucks" or "No War in Iraq", but really, where does it get us? - Criminalized and continually out-flanked by a police dept which has a crazy amount of federal, state & local funding.
All this theory is good for our ideological stances, but, where's the praxis?
summary: if organizing is what you want to see, focus your energy on actually doing it instead of pressuring other radicals to change their ways and join you. if street actions are what you want to do, realize the limitations on the political gains you can make from the actions you are doing, and set clear goals that you can use to evaluate your effectiveness afterward."
great points...
I think there is alot of truth to the whole "obscuring the surveillance" idea. For instance, we should question why the state had so much protection for a rally which brought out around a thousand folks at any given time. What was this about?
I feel as though the answer to the question is they really do not know what is going on with organizing efforts. All this money and man-power in order to keep activists under surveillance and this is what they come up with? Of course, organizers were planning for many more to show up, but how can we as a community which the state looks to repress use this to our advantage?
Also, I think what nessie originally said is something that needs to be re-examined in this thread. How can we create a community outside of the dominant capitalist structure which can support resistance? It doesn't seem that most normal working folks would even think about alot of this unless there was a way out or an alternative support structure. Some sort of network is needed if we are to get anywhere on this subject.
A general strike sounds good. Care to explain how we could get rank and filers to defy beaurocratic leadership in order to accomplish this?
Of course, we can keep dressing up in all black, march around and spray-paint slogans like "Capitalism sucks" or "No War in Iraq", but really, where does it get us? - Criminalized and continually out-flanked by a police dept which has a crazy amount of federal, state & local funding.
All this theory is good for our ideological stances, but, where's the praxis?
"It took them two days to figure out our tactics, adapt, and trap us like fish in a net. "
Thats not what I remember. It took two days before most of the protesters had to go back to work since it wasnt viable to take more than two days off without risking one's job. The mass arrests, not the city shutdown got the international press, so its confusing to hear people present the protests as a "failure". What more could have been done if people had "out-smarted" the SFPD? People could have "taken the Bay Bridge" as was done during the first Gulf War, but as with everything else, that would have mainly been a media stunt, and overall actions were such that the antiwar protests probably got as much coverage as they possibly could have.
Maybe I'm missing something but all of this focus on competing with the police strikes me as the thoughts of someone so caught up in the details of an individual action that they have lost sight of longer term goals. If you take a protest of the same size and make it more militant thats one thing, but chances are the coaliton of people at the protest will shrink as it moves to an extreme and what one hoped would be a better action (meaning more media attention?) becomes just a small group that barely gets noticed (like a leftwing version of the Freepers). The city wasnt shut down for a day because of the holier than though uberleft, it was shut down due to pacifists, Socialists, Communists, Anarchists, Greens, labor unions and others all working together.
Thats not what I remember. It took two days before most of the protesters had to go back to work since it wasnt viable to take more than two days off without risking one's job. The mass arrests, not the city shutdown got the international press, so its confusing to hear people present the protests as a "failure". What more could have been done if people had "out-smarted" the SFPD? People could have "taken the Bay Bridge" as was done during the first Gulf War, but as with everything else, that would have mainly been a media stunt, and overall actions were such that the antiwar protests probably got as much coverage as they possibly could have.
Maybe I'm missing something but all of this focus on competing with the police strikes me as the thoughts of someone so caught up in the details of an individual action that they have lost sight of longer term goals. If you take a protest of the same size and make it more militant thats one thing, but chances are the coaliton of people at the protest will shrink as it moves to an extreme and what one hoped would be a better action (meaning more media attention?) becomes just a small group that barely gets noticed (like a leftwing version of the Freepers). The city wasnt shut down for a day because of the holier than though uberleft, it was shut down due to pacifists, Socialists, Communists, Anarchists, Greens, labor unions and others all working together.
"A general strike sounds good. Care to explain how we could get rank and filers to defy beaurocratic leadership in order to accomplish this? "
Is it really the beurocratic union leadership? At some jobs the workers are more radical than the Union leadership but at many jobs the Union leadership is far to the left of most workers. Overall in the US, the workingclass is slightly right of center on both wars and social issues (due to religion and nationalism).
General strikes are also hard when workers get paid hourly. Not getting paid for a day to protest a war (or other cause) is in effect asking workers to pay to protest; this prevents this type of protest from being popular among any group that is living pay-check to pay-check.
Organizing a "general strike" is a dream of many organizers, but the question shouldnt be why they are not happening now, but how and why they have occured in the past.
Here is a good list of past general strikes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_strike
Looking at the Seattle General Strike,
"[it] was the first general strike in a U.S. city. Dissatisfied workers in several unions began the strike to gain higher wages after two years of wage controls due to World War I. Many other local unions joined the walkout." Since the protest was over wage controls, the issue of lost payments during the strike were not a big issue (if you are striking to get paid more and you expect to win, the losses during the strike seem more acceptable) Since the issue was economic and personal (it was a law directly effecting people and not an issue of larger systematic problems that are harder to get everyone to agree upon or feel as pressing), getting workingclass support was likewise not much of an issue.
Wars cost money that will end up comming out of people's paychecks in one way or another, so there is the possibility of getting a general strike over a war. But, its hard to see much of the "workingclass" supporting a general strike for its own sake. With the educated classes in the US making up the bulk of antiwar protesters, organizing more workingclass people to oppose the war would be a first step (it could also easilly be a last step too if a demand was to just end a war since without workingclass support, US leaders would probably quickly end a war)
Is it really the beurocratic union leadership? At some jobs the workers are more radical than the Union leadership but at many jobs the Union leadership is far to the left of most workers. Overall in the US, the workingclass is slightly right of center on both wars and social issues (due to religion and nationalism).
General strikes are also hard when workers get paid hourly. Not getting paid for a day to protest a war (or other cause) is in effect asking workers to pay to protest; this prevents this type of protest from being popular among any group that is living pay-check to pay-check.
Organizing a "general strike" is a dream of many organizers, but the question shouldnt be why they are not happening now, but how and why they have occured in the past.
Here is a good list of past general strikes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_strike
Looking at the Seattle General Strike,
"[it] was the first general strike in a U.S. city. Dissatisfied workers in several unions began the strike to gain higher wages after two years of wage controls due to World War I. Many other local unions joined the walkout." Since the protest was over wage controls, the issue of lost payments during the strike were not a big issue (if you are striking to get paid more and you expect to win, the losses during the strike seem more acceptable) Since the issue was economic and personal (it was a law directly effecting people and not an issue of larger systematic problems that are harder to get everyone to agree upon or feel as pressing), getting workingclass support was likewise not much of an issue.
Wars cost money that will end up comming out of people's paychecks in one way or another, so there is the possibility of getting a general strike over a war. But, its hard to see much of the "workingclass" supporting a general strike for its own sake. With the educated classes in the US making up the bulk of antiwar protesters, organizing more workingclass people to oppose the war would be a first step (it could also easilly be a last step too if a demand was to just end a war since without workingclass support, US leaders would probably quickly end a war)
this has been a pretty decent thread. The dream of a global mass general strike base on internet organizing is totally out of touch with the reality of who has access to the internet. but leaving that fantasy aside for the moment.
John Ross the author was talking about the effect of the 60s/70s anti war movement. He said that it didn't stop the war, but it made the powers that be at least slightly uncomfortable. That in itself is important. It is also important for American people to have some consciousness raising and actually participate in expressions of resistance. Expressions meaning being vocal and visible, and also being part of a movement basically in solidarity with people under the US gun around the world.
As has been pointed out earlier, people in other countries get killed by the state for protesting. I find it hard to see that, and not find value in street action, even if some people see it as ineffective or having no place in their final solution.
The biodev. festival of general indifference, was effective if disempowering. It diverted a ton of money away from the US government and local government (that could have been used for war) to either the college funds or coke addictions of local law enforcement. That is direct action, no? But being there does count, corporations shouldn't be able to live in a world where there is no opposition. Maybe Reclaim the Commons, will do more things around the city to keep the ideas of the action alive. I hope so, san franciscans need to care about san francisco and the people that are fighting to live here.
A side note...one of the kerry zealots that has had sway on kpfa in the last few monthes, gave me the most compelling reason not to vote for jon kerry. 'He said that Kerry was one of the main vets to take the anti war movement out of the streets and bring it into congress where it led to actual political gains in stopping the war.' That says alot about the potential power of street protest, if it can be realized and not legitimized or bought off with concessions.
John Ross the author was talking about the effect of the 60s/70s anti war movement. He said that it didn't stop the war, but it made the powers that be at least slightly uncomfortable. That in itself is important. It is also important for American people to have some consciousness raising and actually participate in expressions of resistance. Expressions meaning being vocal and visible, and also being part of a movement basically in solidarity with people under the US gun around the world.
As has been pointed out earlier, people in other countries get killed by the state for protesting. I find it hard to see that, and not find value in street action, even if some people see it as ineffective or having no place in their final solution.
The biodev. festival of general indifference, was effective if disempowering. It diverted a ton of money away from the US government and local government (that could have been used for war) to either the college funds or coke addictions of local law enforcement. That is direct action, no? But being there does count, corporations shouldn't be able to live in a world where there is no opposition. Maybe Reclaim the Commons, will do more things around the city to keep the ideas of the action alive. I hope so, san franciscans need to care about san francisco and the people that are fighting to live here.
A side note...one of the kerry zealots that has had sway on kpfa in the last few monthes, gave me the most compelling reason not to vote for jon kerry. 'He said that Kerry was one of the main vets to take the anti war movement out of the streets and bring it into congress where it led to actual political gains in stopping the war.' That says alot about the potential power of street protest, if it can be realized and not legitimized or bought off with concessions.
"Organizing a "general strike" is a dream of many organizers, but the question shouldnt be why they are not happening now, but how and why they have occured in the past."
Yes. I've been meaning to somewhat address this since the beginning of the thread, but have gone in different directions. I feel as though both the "why they are not happening now" and the "why they happened in the past" are definately interconnected and should be looked at together. I don't want to get too esoteric, but, I feel as though alot of it has to do with the immediacy of any given action to normal working-class folks.
The level of immediacy is different to different folks. Take for instance the privatization of public power. In France, workers are currently entrenched in a very millitant battle against the state sanctioned privatization of the energy industry. When this happened in California, we heard lots of crying against it, but what really did workers do to stop it? Another example is the mobilization against the Iraq war. The immediacy level was extremely high. Hence the 250,000 protesters who came out for the ANSWER march or the shut-down of SF financial district. Why are we not seeing this now? Because it is no longer immediate to normal working-class folks.
I see the Biodev failing misserably in creating immediacy for normal folks. Why all the propaganda regarding mutant foods etc. Why was it not propmoted as a war on life itself or corporate ownership of life? These are very immediate to ordinary folks. It is imparative to mobilizing folks to create this immediacy.
I also see alot of normal working-class folks believing the line of libertatians where it is the fault of the working-class that they "earn" less. Talking about class mobility,etc. whereas we would see it as an exploitative relationship. How did this ideological shift happen within the working class? why is it still a part of other nations struggle and not ours?
Then on top of that, organized labor has failed miserably to fight back against corporate power.
Things definately need to change with our tactics and ways in which we communicate our ideologies. Fix that and we can have a general strike. Not how we fight cops in the streets.
I'm rambling and now I need to stop and get back to work.
solidarity!
Yes. I've been meaning to somewhat address this since the beginning of the thread, but have gone in different directions. I feel as though both the "why they are not happening now" and the "why they happened in the past" are definately interconnected and should be looked at together. I don't want to get too esoteric, but, I feel as though alot of it has to do with the immediacy of any given action to normal working-class folks.
The level of immediacy is different to different folks. Take for instance the privatization of public power. In France, workers are currently entrenched in a very millitant battle against the state sanctioned privatization of the energy industry. When this happened in California, we heard lots of crying against it, but what really did workers do to stop it? Another example is the mobilization against the Iraq war. The immediacy level was extremely high. Hence the 250,000 protesters who came out for the ANSWER march or the shut-down of SF financial district. Why are we not seeing this now? Because it is no longer immediate to normal working-class folks.
I see the Biodev failing misserably in creating immediacy for normal folks. Why all the propaganda regarding mutant foods etc. Why was it not propmoted as a war on life itself or corporate ownership of life? These are very immediate to ordinary folks. It is imparative to mobilizing folks to create this immediacy.
I also see alot of normal working-class folks believing the line of libertatians where it is the fault of the working-class that they "earn" less. Talking about class mobility,etc. whereas we would see it as an exploitative relationship. How did this ideological shift happen within the working class? why is it still a part of other nations struggle and not ours?
Then on top of that, organized labor has failed miserably to fight back against corporate power.
Things definately need to change with our tactics and ways in which we communicate our ideologies. Fix that and we can have a general strike. Not how we fight cops in the streets.
I'm rambling and now I need to stop and get back to work.
solidarity!
first, i think ness is displaying a limited appreciation for the inner workings of capitalism. which is odd, given his background. there are no blank checks. period. it is obvious that capitalists dont have total control over the system.
second, capitalist "systems" have a mind of their own and generate crises on their own. some people think the system will provide for its own demise, rather than us. i dont know if i totally agree but i thnk the argument is not a bad one.
third, the street is important. it is a communication tool. it is a meeting place. historically, where has large scale agitation and organizing occured? not online. it occurs in the only place it could, in large common spaces people do have access to. and during a general strike, what do people do? they go out into the streets.
i suppose a futuristic vision might include everyone logging in online to note their participation in the general strike in an online poll or forum (indymedia :) !). but for most people, i think the street will always be where we realistically guage the power of BOTH movements and serious actions.
i look at history. i look at current events. i look at other countries (and this one, in the past). they shoot people for protesting in the street.. is it because the street is useless? and why then, in spite of people risking getting shot, has street protest not disappeared over time? you might chalk this up to a history and human race chock full of stupid militant liberals. i suppose it could be true, but then that puts you in the role of Cassandra. theres a whole hell of a lot of burden of proof on you.
second, capitalist "systems" have a mind of their own and generate crises on their own. some people think the system will provide for its own demise, rather than us. i dont know if i totally agree but i thnk the argument is not a bad one.
third, the street is important. it is a communication tool. it is a meeting place. historically, where has large scale agitation and organizing occured? not online. it occurs in the only place it could, in large common spaces people do have access to. and during a general strike, what do people do? they go out into the streets.
i suppose a futuristic vision might include everyone logging in online to note their participation in the general strike in an online poll or forum (indymedia :) !). but for most people, i think the street will always be where we realistically guage the power of BOTH movements and serious actions.
i look at history. i look at current events. i look at other countries (and this one, in the past). they shoot people for protesting in the street.. is it because the street is useless? and why then, in spite of people risking getting shot, has street protest not disappeared over time? you might chalk this up to a history and human race chock full of stupid militant liberals. i suppose it could be true, but then that puts you in the role of Cassandra. theres a whole hell of a lot of burden of proof on you.
first, i think ness is displaying a limited appreciation for the inner workings of capitalism. which is odd, given his background. there are no blank checks. period. it is obvious that capitalists dont have total control over the system.
second, capitalist "systems" have a mind of their own and generate crises on their own. some people think the system will provide for its own demise, rather than us. i dont know if i totally agree but i thnk the argument is not a bad one.
third, the street is important. it is a communication tool. it is a meeting place. historically, where has large scale agitation and organizing occured? not online. it occurs in the only place it could, in large common spaces people do have access to. and during a general strike, what do people do? they go out into the streets.
i suppose a futuristic vision might include everyone logging in online to note their participation in the general strike in an online poll or forum (indymedia :) !). but for most people, i think the street will always be where we realistically guage the power of BOTH movements and serious actions.
i look at history. i look at current events. i look at other countries too. they shoot people for protesting in the street. is it because the street is useless? and why then, in spite of people risking getting shot, has street protest not disappeared over time? you might chalk this up to a history and human race chock full of stupid militant liberals. i suppose it could be true, but then that puts you in the role of Cassandra. theres a whole hell of a lot of burden of proof on you.
second, capitalist "systems" have a mind of their own and generate crises on their own. some people think the system will provide for its own demise, rather than us. i dont know if i totally agree but i thnk the argument is not a bad one.
third, the street is important. it is a communication tool. it is a meeting place. historically, where has large scale agitation and organizing occured? not online. it occurs in the only place it could, in large common spaces people do have access to. and during a general strike, what do people do? they go out into the streets.
i suppose a futuristic vision might include everyone logging in online to note their participation in the general strike in an online poll or forum (indymedia :) !). but for most people, i think the street will always be where we realistically guage the power of BOTH movements and serious actions.
i look at history. i look at current events. i look at other countries too. they shoot people for protesting in the street. is it because the street is useless? and why then, in spite of people risking getting shot, has street protest not disappeared over time? you might chalk this up to a history and human race chock full of stupid militant liberals. i suppose it could be true, but then that puts you in the role of Cassandra. theres a whole hell of a lot of burden of proof on you.
Gooooooood Morning!
Great stuff, now we are getting it into trim;
I need to listen more/talkmore with all of you concerning this thread, so please bear with me. I am not able in a few simple words to merely "touch" on what we are talking about, we need to find ways to reach conclusions that can thereafter be translated into activities that can be gauged, et al. So i will
take one aspect of this mulit-level discussion at a time
1. meh
You are right, the street, all of it, belongs to the people. However, the neighborhood is continuously invaded at will by armed thugs...I believe we need to arrange methodologies whereby the thugs are turned into as much "comic relief" as possible for the benefit, primarily, of the....insecure and uncertain....American wage slave. I sense that scenes of violent confrontation between the thugs --
(whose mediahype generally establishes that they are the "good guys" in the minds of those same wage slaves who usually do not have the time, energy, or for some as yet the means, to sift between propaganda and reality)
-- and ourselves generally do the progressive movement psyops harm in those social circles, albeit they provide morale boosts to some of those already engaged....it is MUCH MORE IMPORTANT that progressive ideologies reach the H & M of the broader mass of wage slaves than encourage those already aware of the fact that they are personally engaged in an epic social war for our planet.
(who needs scifi when every breathing moment is living out the most frightful scary movie one could imagine?)
Steady now, meh, I said "...those social circles..."
Point being, we need to develop a BETTER METHOD for that particular social group. Poor people with little or no means who are daily offering up themselves just so their kids can eat, go to school, their loved ones get needed medical care, cannot EVER be expected or required to shoulder the burden of direct confrontation in a FRONTLINE role with the opposition...these are the very people WE are fighting for.
For them, we need to establish, only as my type of example now,
-- The Peoples Own Day Services Centers
--child care
--elderly support (and meaningful tasks...child care...)
--food (beg barter grow provide simple vegan/grainbase
--forum (social interaction)
--public information (how to where to et al)
--service options (you think up some or i will talk too
much)
-- The Peoples Own Night Watch
-- escort services (elderly, infirm, challenged)
-- security (teams properly equipped)
-- The Peoples Own Transit Pool
...now all of the above carry with them the well designed and well established logo of this movement, recall the BP as one example of community outreach that worked. The opposition hated that effort because it was working in the inner city ghettos, people were starting to see the difference between the mediahyped "violent black men" and the "defenders of the black community".
No effort is spared to establish in the minds of the disenfranchised that we are not about "destruction" we are about "redemption".
We will redeem the values of our society as stated in our precepts and we will defend the peoples rights against a criminal usurper of our heritage. I think I can safely say that there are several millions more of the disenfranchised that will "vote" if you will with their hearts and emotions as they always do for obvious reasons than there are inordinately wealthy who will vote with their corrupted influence mechanisms...the game is most certainly out there, and it is ours provided we can utilize some of our talents in varying ways towards varying groups.
So, meh, my stalwart friend, i am glad to know you are in our streets, for you do have a vital role to perform. I am not so certain I want you personally to present our case, in your manner, to some groups just as i am equally certain that I would want you and no other to present our case to others...
More later, thanks for being there!
Great stuff, now we are getting it into trim;
I need to listen more/talkmore with all of you concerning this thread, so please bear with me. I am not able in a few simple words to merely "touch" on what we are talking about, we need to find ways to reach conclusions that can thereafter be translated into activities that can be gauged, et al. So i will
take one aspect of this mulit-level discussion at a time
1. meh
You are right, the street, all of it, belongs to the people. However, the neighborhood is continuously invaded at will by armed thugs...I believe we need to arrange methodologies whereby the thugs are turned into as much "comic relief" as possible for the benefit, primarily, of the....insecure and uncertain....American wage slave. I sense that scenes of violent confrontation between the thugs --
(whose mediahype generally establishes that they are the "good guys" in the minds of those same wage slaves who usually do not have the time, energy, or for some as yet the means, to sift between propaganda and reality)
-- and ourselves generally do the progressive movement psyops harm in those social circles, albeit they provide morale boosts to some of those already engaged....it is MUCH MORE IMPORTANT that progressive ideologies reach the H & M of the broader mass of wage slaves than encourage those already aware of the fact that they are personally engaged in an epic social war for our planet.
(who needs scifi when every breathing moment is living out the most frightful scary movie one could imagine?)
Steady now, meh, I said "...those social circles..."
Point being, we need to develop a BETTER METHOD for that particular social group. Poor people with little or no means who are daily offering up themselves just so their kids can eat, go to school, their loved ones get needed medical care, cannot EVER be expected or required to shoulder the burden of direct confrontation in a FRONTLINE role with the opposition...these are the very people WE are fighting for.
For them, we need to establish, only as my type of example now,
-- The Peoples Own Day Services Centers
--child care
--elderly support (and meaningful tasks...child care...)
--food (beg barter grow provide simple vegan/grainbase
--forum (social interaction)
--public information (how to where to et al)
--service options (you think up some or i will talk too
much)
-- The Peoples Own Night Watch
-- escort services (elderly, infirm, challenged)
-- security (teams properly equipped)
-- The Peoples Own Transit Pool
...now all of the above carry with them the well designed and well established logo of this movement, recall the BP as one example of community outreach that worked. The opposition hated that effort because it was working in the inner city ghettos, people were starting to see the difference between the mediahyped "violent black men" and the "defenders of the black community".
No effort is spared to establish in the minds of the disenfranchised that we are not about "destruction" we are about "redemption".
We will redeem the values of our society as stated in our precepts and we will defend the peoples rights against a criminal usurper of our heritage. I think I can safely say that there are several millions more of the disenfranchised that will "vote" if you will with their hearts and emotions as they always do for obvious reasons than there are inordinately wealthy who will vote with their corrupted influence mechanisms...the game is most certainly out there, and it is ours provided we can utilize some of our talents in varying ways towards varying groups.
So, meh, my stalwart friend, i am glad to know you are in our streets, for you do have a vital role to perform. I am not so certain I want you personally to present our case, in your manner, to some groups just as i am equally certain that I would want you and no other to present our case to others...
More later, thanks for being there!
Check this out:
http://www.sfimc.net/news/2004/06/1697118.php
(snip)
Weapons that can incapacitate crowds of people by sweeping a lightning-like beam of electricity across them are being readied for sale to military and police forces in the US and Europe.
(snip)
http://www.sfimc.net/news/2004/06/1697118.php
(snip)
Weapons that can incapacitate crowds of people by sweeping a lightning-like beam of electricity across them are being readied for sale to military and police forces in the US and Europe.
(snip)
A part of Stage One of most PF´s that move towards utilizing varying means of opposition is usually capture/retrieval of oppositional hardware, key individuals, information, and neutralization of assorted selected TO´s.
Shocking stuff, that.
Put it together with the atmospheric issues and you have got serious grounds for getting busy.
There are other interesting concepts out there. Such as the one where no power source functions, rendering any/all electrically based hardware into junk, as an example.
Shocking stuff, that.
Put it together with the atmospheric issues and you have got serious grounds for getting busy.
There are other interesting concepts out there. Such as the one where no power source functions, rendering any/all electrically based hardware into junk, as an example.
the radicals are finally getting it together.
i can feel capital trembling from here.
i can feel capital trembling from here.
Well, there's always couriers, carrier pigeons, heliograph and wig-wag.
secret handshakes
Telepaths.
But even the most secure communications are useless without the the right information to communicate.
What kinds of information are most useful at a tactical level?
What kinds of information are most useful at a tactical level?
Does this mean people don't know the answer?
What's the plan for November? January? This time next year? Five years from now? Ten?
What are you and your affinity group doing right now that will directly benefit the movement this time next year? In ten years? In a hundred?
How about in six months? Or all you too dazzled by all the electoral hoopla to see that far ahead?
How about in three months? Can you think that far ahead? Try to imagine it’s late in September. The conventions are over. The election is coming. The corporate news is telling you every day that the economy is getting better. They have numbers to prove it, but you can’t see it happening with your own eyes. Like most people, you’re in debt, and only a few paychecks from homeless. The oil war has escalated. The allied military position deteriorating quickly. Any day now there will be some sort of terrorist attack, maybe where you live, and there is no way to tell who is really responsible. A lot of your close personal friends are in jail or on bail, facing charges accrued during the conventions. Some charges are very serious indeed.
In short, it’s ninety days from now. There you are. What’s your plan? Do you have one? Why not?
What are you and your affinity group doing right now that will directly benefit the movement this time next year? In ten years? In a hundred?
How about in six months? Or all you too dazzled by all the electoral hoopla to see that far ahead?
How about in three months? Can you think that far ahead? Try to imagine it’s late in September. The conventions are over. The election is coming. The corporate news is telling you every day that the economy is getting better. They have numbers to prove it, but you can’t see it happening with your own eyes. Like most people, you’re in debt, and only a few paychecks from homeless. The oil war has escalated. The allied military position deteriorating quickly. Any day now there will be some sort of terrorist attack, maybe where you live, and there is no way to tell who is really responsible. A lot of your close personal friends are in jail or on bail, facing charges accrued during the conventions. Some charges are very serious indeed.
In short, it’s ninety days from now. There you are. What’s your plan? Do you have one? Why not?
We are 100% volunteer and depend on your participation to sustain our efforts!
Donate
$120.00 donated
in the past month
Get Involved
If you'd like to help with maintaining or developing the website, contact us.
Publish
Publish your stories and upcoming events on Indybay.
Topics
More
Search Indybay's Archives
Advanced Search
►
▼
IMC Network