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Indybay Feature

People of the Year -- 2003

by Tibor Szamuely (tiborszamuely [at] yahoo.com)
TIME Magazine's "Person of the Year" for 2003 draws attention to the role that mass resistance by enlisted people has played in sabotaging Wall Street's wars.
peopleofyear.jpg"

Harass the Brass

A friend who was in the U.S. military during the 1990-91 Persian Gulf War told me that before President G.H.W. Bush visited the troops in Saudi Arabia, enlisted men and women who would be in Bush’s immediate vicinity had their rifle and pistol ammunition taken away from them. This was supposedly done to avoid “accidents.” But it was also clear to people on the scene that Bush and his corporate handlers were somewhat afraid of the enlisted people who Bush would soon be killing in his unsuccessful re-election campaign.

The suppressed history of the last big U.S. war before ‘Operation Desert Storm’ shows that the Commander-in-Chief had good reason to fear and distrust his troops. Our rulers want us to forget what happened during the Vietnam war -- especially what happened inside the U.S. armed forces during the war. Our rulers remember it all too well. They want us to forget what defeated their war effort, and the importance of resistance to the war by enlisted men and women.

Until 1968 the desertion rate for U.S. troops in Vietnam was lower than in previous wars. But by 1969 the desertion rate had increased fourfold. This wasn’t limited to Southeast Asia; desertion rates among G.I.’s were on the increase world-wide. For soldiers in the combat zone, insubordination became an important part of avoiding horrible injury or death. As early as mid-1969, an entire company of the 196th Light Infantry Brigade sat down on the battlefield. Later that year, a rifle company from the famed 1st Air Cavalry Division flatly refused - on CBS TV - to advance down a dangerous trail. In the following 12 months the 1st Air Cav notched up 35 combat refusals. From mild forms of political protest and disobedience of war orders, the resistance among the ground troops grew into a massive and widespread “quasi-mutiny” by 1970 and 1971. Soldiers went on “search and avoid” missions, intentionally skirting clashes with the Vietnamese, and often holding three-day-long pot parties instead of fighting. By 1970, the U.S. Army had 65,643 deserters, roughly the equivalent of four infantry divisions.

In an article published in the Armed Forces Journal (June 7, 1971), Marine Colonel Robert D. Heinl Jr., a veteran combat commander with over 27 years experience in the Marines, and the author of Soldiers Of The Sea, a definitive history of the Marine Corps, wrote: “By every conceivable indicator, our army that remains in Vietnam is in a state approaching collapse, with individual units avoiding or having refused combat, murdering their officers and noncommissioned officers...Sedition, coupled with disaffection from within the ranks, and externally fomented with an audacity and intensity previously inconceivable, infest the Armed Services...”

Heinl cited a New York Times article which quoted an enlisted man saying, “The American garrisons on the larger bases are virtually disarmed. The lifers have taken our weapons away...there have also been quite a few frag incidents in the battalion.”

“Frag incidents” or “fragging” was soldier slang in Vietnam for the killing of strict, unpopular and aggressive officers and NCO’s. The word apparently originated from enlisted men using fragmentation grenades to off commanders. Heinl wrote, “Bounties, raised by common subscription in amounts running anywhere from $50 to $1,000, have been widely reported put on the heads of leaders who the privates and SP4s want to rub out. “Shortly after the costly assault on Hamburger Hill in mid-1969, the GI underground newspaper in Vietnam, GI Says, publicly offered a $10,000 bounty on Lieutenant Colonel Weldon Hunnicutt, the officer who ordered and led the attack. “The Pentagon has now disclosed that fraggings in 1970 (209 killings) have more than doubled those of the previous year (96 killings). Word of the deaths of officers will bring cheers at troop movies or in bivouacs of certain units.”

Congressional hearings on fraggings held in 1973 estimated that roughly 3% of officer and non-com deaths in Vietnam between 1961 and 1972 were a result of fraggings. But these figures were only for killings committed with grenades, and didn’t include officer deaths from automatic weapons fire, handguns and knifings. The Army’s Judge Advocate General’s Corps estimated that only 10% of fragging attempts resulted in anyone going to trial.

In the Americal Division, plagued by poor morale, fraggings during 1971 were estimated to be running around one a week. War equipment was frequently sabotaged and destroyed. By 1972 roughly 300 anti-war and anti-military newspapers, with names like Harass the Brass, All Hands Abandon Ship and Star Spangled Bummer had been put out by enlisted people. “In Vietnam,” wrote the Ft. Lewis-McCord Free Press, “The Lifers, the Brass, are the true enemy...” Riots and anti-war demonstrations took place on bases in Asia, Europe and in the United States. By the early 1970s the government had to begin pulling out of the ground war and switching to an “air war,” in part because many of the ground troops who were supposed to do the fighting were hamstringing the world’s mightiest military force by their sabotage and resistance.

With the shifting over to an “air war” strategy, the Navy became an important center of resistance to the war. In response to the racism that prevailed inside the Navy, black and white sailors occasionally rebelled together. The most significant of these rebellions took place on board the USS Constellation off Southern California, in November 1972. In response to a threat of less-than-honorable discharges against several black sailors, a group of over 100 black and white sailors staged a day-and-a-half long sit-in. Fearful of losing control of his ship at sea to full-scale mutiny, the ship’s commander brought the Constellation back to San Diego.

One hundred thirty-two sailors were allowed to go ashore. They refused orders to reboard the ship several days later, staging a defiant dockside strike on the morning of November 9. In spite of the seriousness of the rebellion, not one of the sailors involved was arrested.

Sabotage was an extremely useful tactic. On May 26, 1970, the USS Anderson was preparing to steam from San Diego to Vietnam. But someone had dropped nuts, bolts and chains down the main gear shaft. A major breakdown occurred, resulting in thousands of dollars worth of damage and a delay of several weeks. Several sailors were charged, but because of a lack of evidence the case was dismissed. With the escalation of naval involvement in the war the level of sabotage grew. In July of 1972, within the space of three weeks, two of the Navy’s aircraft carriers were put out of commission by sabotage. On July 10, a massive fire swept through the admiral’s quarters and radar center of the USS Forestall, causing over $7 million in damage. This delayed the ship’s deployment for over two months. In late July, the USS Ranger was docked at Alameda, California. Just days before the ship’s scheduled departure for Vietnam, a paint-scraper and two 12-inch bolts were inserted into the number-four-engine reduction gears causing nearly $1 million in damage and forcing a three-and-a-half month delay in operations for extensive repairs. The sailor charged in the case was acquitted. In other cases, sailors tossed equipment over the sides of ships while at sea.

The House Armed Services Committee summed up the crisis of rebellion in the Navy: “The U.S. Navy is now confronted with pressures...which, if not controlled, will surely destroy its enviable tradition of discipline. Recent instances of sabotage, riot, willful disobedience of orders, and contempt for authority...are clear-cut symptoms of a dangerous deterioration of discipline.”

The rebellion in the ranks didn’t emerge simply in response to battlefield conditions. A civilian anti-war movement in the U.S. had emerged on the coat-tails of the civil rights movement, at a time when the pacifism-at-any-price tactics of civil rights leaders had reached their effective limit, and were being questioned by a younger, combative generation. Working class blacks and Latinos served in combat units out of all proportion to their numbers in American society, and major urban riots in Watts, Detroit and Newark had an explosive effect on the consciousness of these men. After the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. major riots erupted in 181 U.S. cities; at that point the rulers of the United States were facing the gravest national crisis since the Civil War. And the radical movement of the late 1960’s wasn’t limited to the United States. Large-scale rebellion was breaking out all over the world, in Latin American and Europe and Africa, and even against the Maoists in China; its high point was the wildcat general strike that shut down France in May, 1968, the last time a major industrialized democracy came close to social revolution.

The crisis that racked American society during the Vietnam war was a grave development in the life of what had been a very stable and conservative society, but it wasn’t profound enough to create an irreparable rupture between the rulers and the ruled. In the early 1970’s, the U.S. was still coasting on the relative prosperity of the post-World War Two economic boom. Social conditions faced by working people in the U.S. weren’t anywhere near as overwhelming and unbearable as they are now. U.S. involvement in a protracted ground war in Iraq today or Columbia tomorrow could have a much more rapid explosive impact on American society.

A number of years ago, in a deceitful article in Mother Jones magazine, corporate liberal historian Todd Gitlin claimed that the peaceful and legal aspects of the 1960’s U.S. anti-war movement had been the most successful opposition to a war in history. Gitlin was dead wrong; as a bourgeois historian, Gitlin is paid to render service unto capital by getting it wrong, and get it wrong he does, again and again. The most effective “anti-war” movement in history was at the end of World War One, when proletarian revolutions broke out in Russia, Germany and throughout Central Europe in 1917 and 1918. A crucial factor in the revolutionary movement of that time was the collapse of the armies and navies of Russian and Germany in full-scale armed mutiny. After several years of war and millions of casualties the soldiers and sailors of opposing nations began to fraternize with each other, turned their guns against their commanding officers and went home to fight against the ruling classes that had sent them off to war. The war ended with a global cycle of mutinies mirroring the social unrest spreading across the capitalist world; some of the most powerful regimes on Earth were quickly toppled and destroyed.

Soldiers and sailors played a leading role in the revolutionary movement. The naval bases Kronstadt in Russia and Kiel and Wilhelmshaven in Germany became important centers of revolutionary self-organization and action, and the passing of vast numbers of armed soldiers and sailors to the side of the Soviets allowed the working class to briefly take power in Russia. The French invasion of Revolutionary Russia in 1919 and 1920 was crippled by the mutiny of the French fleet in the Black Sea, centered around the battleships France and the Jean Bart. Mutinies broke out among sailors in the British Navy and in the armies of the British empire in Asia, and even among American troops sent to aid the counter-revolutionary White Army in the Russian Civil War.

Revolutionary unrest doesn’t happen every day, but when it does break out, it can overcome the most powerful states with a surprising and improbable speed, and the collapse of the repressive forces of the state is a key moment in the beginning of a new way of life. It’s an ugly fact that war and revolution were intimately linked in the most far-going social movements of the 20th century. With the U.S. governments’ self-appointed role as the cop for global capitalist law and order, it’s likely that the crisis that will cause an irreparable break between the rulers and the ruled in the United States will be the result of an unsuccessful war. That day may soon be upon us. At that point, widespread fraternization between anti-capitalist radicals and enlisted people will be crucial in expanding an anti-war movement into a larger opposition to the system of wage labor and commodity production that generates wars, exploitation, poverty, inequality and ecological devastation. An examination of what happened to the U.S. military during the Vietnam War can help us see the central role “the military question” is going to play in a revolutionary mass movement in the 21st century. It isn’t a question of how a chaotic and rebellious civilian populace can out-gun the well-organized, disciplined armies of the capitalist state in pitched battle, but of how a mass movement can cripple the effective fighting capacity of the military from within, and bring about the collapse and dispersal of the state’s armed forces. What set of circumstances can compel the inchoate discontentment endemic in any wartime army or navy to advance to the level of conscious, organized resistance? How fast and how deeply can a subversive consciousness spread among enlisted people? How can rebels in uniform take effective, large-scale action against the military machine? This effort will involve the sabotage and destruction of sophisticated military technologies, an irreversible breakdown in the chain-of-command, and a terminal demoralization of the officer corps. The “quasi-mutiny” that helped defeat the U.S. in Vietnam offers a significant precedent for the kind of subversive action working people will have to foment against 21st century global capitalism and its high-tech military machine.

As rampaging market forces trash living conditions for the majority of the world’s people, working class troops will do the fighting in counter-insurgency actions against other working class people. War games several years ago by the Marines in a defunct housing project in Oakland, dubbed ‘Operation Urban Warrior,’ highlight the fact that America’s rulers want their military to be prepared to suppress the domestic fallout from their actions, and be ready to do it soon. But as previous waves of global unrest have shown, the forces that give rise to mass rebellion in one area of the globe will simultaneously give rise to rebellion in other parts of the world. The armed forces are vulnerable to social forces at work in the larger society that spawns them. Revolt in civilian society bleeds through the fabric of the military into the ranks of enlisted people. The relationship between officers and enlisted people mirrors the relationship between bosses and employees, and similar dynamics of class conflict emerge in the military and civilian versions of the workplace. The military is never a hermetically sealed organization.

Our rulers know all this. Our rulers know that they are vulnerable to mass resistance, and they know that their wealth and power can be collapsed from within by the working class women and men whom they depend on. We need to know it, too.

Much of the information for this article has been taken from the book Soldiers in Revolt: The American Military Today, by David Cortright, published by Anchor/Doubleday in 1975.

Readers should please send copies of this article to any enlisted people they know.



NOTE: 1. A few far-sighted individuals among the U.S. political elite apparently fear that protracted U.S. involvement in a ground war could trigger large-scale domestic unrest.

According to Newsweek magazine, at a meeting in the White House during President Clinton's intervention in the Balkans, a heated exchange took place between Madeleine Albright, then ambassador to the United Nations, and then-National Security Adviser Colin Powell.

Newsweek gives the following confusing and semi-coherent account:

"...Powell steadfastly resisted American involvement. He initially opposed even air drops of food, fearing that these would fail and that U.S. Army ground troops would inevitably be sucked in. His civilian bosses, who suspected him of padding the numbers when asked how many U.S. troops would be required, grew impatient.

At one meeting, Madeleine Albright, then ambassador to the United Nations, famously confronted Powell. "What's the point of having this superb military that you're always talkingabout if we can't use it?" she demanded. In his memoirs, Powell recalled that he told Albright that GI's were "not toy soldiers to be moved around on some sort of global game board."

An official who witnessed the exchange told NEWSWEEK that Powell also said something quite revealing that has not been reported.

"You would see this wonderful society destroyed," the general angrily told Albright.

It was clear, said this official, that Powell was referring to his beloved Army."

("Colin Powell: Behind the Myth," by Evan Thomas and John Berry, Newsweek, March 5th, 2001)

Colin Powell was a junior officer in the fragging-plagued Americal Division during the Vietnam War. On numerous occasions, Powell has said that the US defeat in Vietnam was the main influence on the way he sees the world. Pow ell clearly understands that the armed forces are a function of the larger civilian society that spawns them.

Was Colin Powell speaking about the US Army -- or about US society itself with his comment about seeing "this wonderful society destroyed?" You be the judge!

INTERNATIONALISM IN PRACTICE: An American soldier in a hospital explained how he was wounded: He said, “I was told that the way to tell a hostile Vietnamese from a friendly Vietnamese was to shout ‘To hell with Ho Chi Minh!’ If he shoots, he’s unfriendly. So I saw this dude and yelled ‘To hell with Ho Chi Minh!’ and he yelled back, ‘To hell with President Johnson!’ We were shaking hands when a truck hit us.” (from 1,001 Ways to Beat the Draft, by Tuli Kupferburg).

Add Your Comments

Comments (Hide Comments)
by Checken Tao (soon all will know)
ugrozny-bagdad-nyc.jpg
Yo Homeboy - you go guy! - Fear abd loathing of the rich - it is the same way in Mexico, nicaragua and Brazil where all of the young poor soldiers we spoke to were totally on the side of revolution - and many of the officers were sympathetic too or at leat admitted it would happen and that most of the soldiers would switch sides and join the coming rebellions -

We need many more articles and research like this to give encouragement to militaries all over the world to see the path that fulfills their oaths to protect and defend the nation - all of the people -

They listen to morl and common sense appeals - lets keep it up and do more interviews with soldiers too/
by Bob Tacto
Were almost done with the iraq war .Why are you still
protesting over the Bush family's Accomplishments in Iraq
from 1991-2003 Do you want bush Assasinated?
by Kragar
The security procedure you claim as a signs that Bush feared a mutiny amongst his troops (gathering of ammunition) was a SOP set down in the sixties, during the Johnson administration. It's been in effect since then, even for "beloved" presidents like Clinton (who most service members I served with wouldn't spit on if he was on fire.)

As for your mutinees, I see a lot of mention of Viet Nam, but not a whole lot since then, other than a few nut jobs in isolated incidents, usually over personal, not military or political reasons. Quit living in the 60s.
by ^&*
..up until the clause beginning "and the collapse of the repressive forces of the state," and then on until the beginning of Note 1.

Ya violent, violent nutter. You may think you're on the side of workers, or repressed people, or whathaveyou. In the war between Violence Practitioners and the rest of us, you are on the same side as Bush, McVeigh, Stalin and Columbus.
by big bad wolf
this is a topic I have watched and waited for, for the last 25 years to surface again as it always does in way. As a military obligation MP in the early sixties I and lots of other college educated guys knew exactly what the War-state wanted our presence for. To police their peons in case they got unruly. The university guys in the officer crop were instructed in the laws and tradition of putting down mutiny in the semi-literate working class cannon fodder and they needed only a little bit of coercion and a lot of pomp and circumstance. My problem was I was one of the college educated working class ex-juvenile dilinquent burglar, car stripper etc. You know the story. Because we were big and athletic I was put in an MP unit where I had time to read the manuals. One night I was on duty and picked up a training manual in the office that said "The central objective of military training is to PREVENT THE ENLISTED PERSONNEL FROM BECOMING RATIONAL UNDER FIRE." I thought it was a misprint. It wasn't.
And now some comments seem to imply that once the uniform is on, the human being inside it must remain irrational and charge up Hamburger hills whever ordered to do so. Even in my stupid and youth wasting job I realized that the time would come that many of us would either have to pack our bags for a neutral country or be forced to kill people we didn't know and hadn't read a book about to secure the interests of elite and self interested families that wouldn't invite us to dinner or let us date their daughters or in the front door to shine their shoes. Slaves are people who wait for someone to free them. Fragging is the saddest way to awaken a fellow American. But sometimes the duty induced sleep of reason on the part of the officer demands that the rebellion shed a friendly blood sacrifice in the face of mass carnage. Is an officers life worth more than mine, or than some pitiful family in the desert or jungle? Maybe. But I am forced to make that decision for myself. I think the usual lowgrade dissing of progressives by progressives makes Rush and Rumsfeld smile with satisfaction.
by heard it before
>In the war between Violence Practitioners and the rest of us, you are on the same side as Bush, McVeigh, Stalin and Columbus.

It is infantile to lump all violence together. Some violence is good. Some violence is bad. It all depends on the situation. To condemn all violence is to slap in the face every woman who ever fought off a rapist, and those Jews who survived the Holocaust by killing their guards and burning Treblinka to the ground.
by nonanarchist
But it in no way applies to today's military.

Today's forces are 100% volunteer, progressives' claims of "no other choice" notwithstanding. And we overwhelmingly support our Commander-in-Chief. (When Clinton was elected, my then-supervisor, an E-7 with 18 years in, threated to fly a black flag from his house on base.)

I enlisted 13 years ago next month. I'll put in 20+ before I retire. So I think I have a little better handle on troops' opinions than many on the Left, who, despite their psuedo-concern for the troops, have never even spoken to one...and never will.
by Rex
When you talk about soldiers having their ammo taken away during a Bush visit you need to also comment on how soldiers had their ammo taken away during Clinton visits. Or you can address the reality of it - it is not the President directing the ammunition be removed, it is the Secret Service directing that the ammo be removed – the President does not address his own safety concerns and if you think he does you have no real knowledge of what happens at that level.

When you talk about 4 divisions of soldiers deserting – you are not talking about soldiers but rather civilians that failed to show up when their draft numbers were called – hardly the desertion of soldiers you were talking about. By 1970 with no start date, it could be the Revolutionary war to 1970 you say there were four divisions of desertions. Your other numbers seem to be equally distorted to serve your agenda. I have found no official documents at the U.S. National Achieves and Records Administration (NARA) to confirm your data.

Lastly I would like ask a question about your statements of how bad things will happen with our combat actions in the Middle East because morale was bad in Vietnam. Do you flush the toilet after blowing your nose?
by FTA
As a wannabe lifer, "nonanarchist" is by defintion a stone chump. We shouldn't pay much attention to the perspectives of those who sit around in a tire swing all day peeling bananas with their feet.
by nonanarchist
Really, FTA?

I'll admit, I'm nowhere in the same class as you, with your cogent and insightful analysis: "...'nonanarchist' is by defintion a stone chump."

Or the sensitive and tasteful, yet stunningly brilliant commentary: "We shouldn't pay much attention to the perspectives of those who sit around in a tire swing all day peeling bananas with their feet."

Incredible! I bow to your superior intellect!

Look, Skippy. I can see your just another dime-a-dozen self-appointed "experts" on the military who not only has NEVER spoken one-on-one with a military member (Note: Yelling "Babykiller!" does not count), but would never even lower yourself to speak to one.

So, that automatically makes your opinion worthless, now, doesn't it?

Don't you have to send a check to the Iraqi Resistance? Assuming, of course, you can spare any money from your lucrative bumpersticker business.

Oh, and never forget...I, and people like me, have sworn to protect with our lives your right to say stupid things about us.

Your welcome.
by heh

Oh, and never forget...I, and people like me, have sworn to protect with our lives your right to say stupid things about us.

Although that right is dying thanks to Ashcroft...

by nonanarchist
No, what's ironic is that you're using a freedom guaranteed to you to say that freedom is being taken away...with absolutely no evidence that it is.

Do you know anybody who's been disappeared?

Have you been forbidden to gather in the streets?

Have newspapers, web sites, and other media outlets been required to broadcast only State propaganda?

Has the government told you, "You can't say that!"

Here's a hint: The answer to all those questions is "No."

And I would remind you...if you value the freedoms you enjoy today, thank a veteran.
by StiffBrit
As a serving member of the British Army on leave from Iraq I must add my own personal accounts of the moral of US troops who I have meet in Iraq. On the whole they are deeply patriotic and angry they can see why the are fighting and thus they fight. In Vietnam the US aims where vague, protect South Vietnam, the US was under no personal threat. I belive that in the US oath troops swear to protect the US against all foes foreign or domestic or words to that effect. In Iraq the are protecting against clear foes in Vietnam they were not. Also they were draftees in Vitnam not regulars.
by nonanarchist
"I, (full name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

I've done that four times now.

I want to thank you, your army, and your country for standing up with America and doing the right thing.

God bless you, brother.
by mercenaries
In Iraq they are protecting against clear foes of Israel, not of America. Iraq was no threat to America under Saddam and is even less of a threat now.

The crusader troops in Iraq are there to expand the neo-colonial, de facto empire of the Anglo-American/Israeli axis.
by ;lkj;lkhlkjh
...any mention of the EEEEvil oil robber barons.

Or are you strictly an "anti-Israel" progressive?
by Aaron S.
The original post above appears to be a slightly abridged version of an article, Harrass the Brass. Mutiny, Fragging and Desertions in the U.S. Military by Kevin Keating. It is the main item in the pamphlet that can be downloaded as a PDF document from defenestrator.org.

A modified version, with the subtitle Let’s rename ‘Fleet Week’ Mutiny Week!, can be found at http://www.infoshop.org/myep/love3.html

BTW, "harass" is the normal spelling, not "harrass" or "harras".

by Aaron S
nonanarchist gives this text of the oath members of the U.S. military are required to take:
I, (full name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
A few obvious questions occur to me:

* What if the promise to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic" requires that one disobey "the orders of the President of the United States", as it clearly does now?

* Didn't the soldiers who killed their officers or otherwise resisted during the war against Vietnam take the same oath? (If so, it didn't seem to have much effect!)

* Don't soldiers in every military force in the world take a similar oath? Was it wrong for soldiers in Hitler's army or, for that matter, in Hussein's, to violate such oaths, as many surely did?

nonanarchist also writes:

I enlisted 13 years ago next month. I'll put in 20+ before I retire. So I think I have a little better handle on troops' opinions than many on the Left, who, despite their psuedo-concern for the troops, have never even spoken to one...and never will.
First of all, why should we believe anything nonanarchist says that can't be independently verified? The entity that writes using that name could easily be a staff person at one of the Pentagon's (or the CIA's or Mossad's) propaganda departments, or just an independent pro-imperialist whose truthfulness or lack thereof is unknowable. A similar caveat applies to any anonymous posting that makes factual assertions that can't be verified.

Secondly, while some of us haven't spoken to any of the troops now serving imperialism in Iraq, most of us have spoken to veterans of previous wars, including both the Vietnam War and the 1991 Iraq war. In fact, many of us are veterans of one or another of those wars! (No, I'm not, in case you were wondering.)

by nonanarchist
"* What if the promise to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic" requires that one disobey "the orders of the President of the United States", as it clearly does now?"

Clearly? To whom? Oh, to you so-called "peace" activists. Haven't you realized yet that just because you say it, doesn't make it so? Besides, I think that very often you and your fellow travellers fall under the "and domestic" part of my oath.

"* Didn't the soldiers who killed their officers or otherwise resisted during the war against Vietnam take the same oath? (If so, it didn't seem to have much effect!)"

And many of them were hopped up on illegal drugs. Did you have a point...?

"* Don't soldiers in every military force in the world take a similar oath? Was it wrong for soldiers in Hitler's army or, for that matter, in Hussein's, to violate such oaths, as many surely did?"

They might take a similar oath. However, most of Hitler's and Saddam's armies were conscripts. You don't ask conscripts to swear true faith an allegience. You keep them in uniform at the point of a gun.

"First of all, why should we believe anything nonanarchist says that can't be independently verified?"

Out of the goodness of your heart...?

Seriously...please explain why this statement does not also apply to you.

"The entity that writes using that name could easily be a staff person at one of the Pentagon's (or the CIA's or Mossad's) propaganda departments, or just an independent pro-imperialist whose truthfulness or lack thereof is unknowable."

Yay! The typical IMC "anyone who disagrees with me MUST be paid by the government!" mantra. How comforting for you.

"A similar caveat applies to any anonymous posting that makes factual assertions that can't be verified."

Again, please explain to me why this statement does not also apply to you. Or does a first name and an initial automatically bestow credibility?

"Secondly, while some of us haven't spoken to any of the troops now serving imperialism in Iraq, most of us have spoken to veterans of previous wars, including both the Vietnam War and the 1991 Iraq war."

Uh huh. And I can guess the opinions of those veterans you have spoken to. Don't try to pretend that you have canvassed a representative sample of all veterans, because we both know you haven't.

"(No, I'm not, in case you were wondering.)"

Yeah...I kinda figured that one for myself.
by former Sergeant of Marines
Obviously people can do what they want, but I would advise folks to ignore "nonanarchist". He's got his mindset, and I doubt anybody will change it.

Direct your energy into defeating the Chickenhawk/former drunk occupying the White House! This won't solve all of our problems, but it would be a damn good start.
by nonanarchist
You sure don't soound like any Marine I've ever met.

Did you turn in your balls when you separated?
by Daniel, another ex-Marine against the war
Yes, you! Non-thinker.
You sure don’t sound like you’ve met very many U.S. Marines.
And by the way, since you obviously haven’t been paying attention and need to be told: Our “Commander-in-Chief” should more appropriately be called our “Deserter-in-Chief.”
by nonanarchist
You haven't been paying attention.

Bush's records show he put in all the time he was required to. This issue is dead. Do try to find another one, willya? Beating a dead horse may be good exercise, but you wind up looking silly.

I've known several Marines. All good people. Are you implying that ALL Marines are against the war?

Or only ex-Marines?

Tell me this, Daniel: Why did you separate? Why didn't you make a career out of the service?
by former Sergeant of Marines
To all my brothers- and sisters-in-arms,

I'm sure you all met somebody like "non anarch" when you were doing your time. (There was at least one in every unit I was in.) You already know the best way to piss him off -- ignore him. He will eventually go away, mad.

Keep your eye on the ball, and don't be distracted by jammers. Put your effort into improving your communities.
by nonanarchist
There's a lot more of my kind in the service than of your kind.

"You already know the best way to piss him off -- ignore him. He will eventually go away, mad."

Au contraire. There is nothing you can do or say that will have any effect of me. To think otherwise is rather humerous to me.

I fully support your right to have and express your opinion. I have sworn to protect that right with my life.

I wonder: Would you return the favor? Would your brothers- and sisters-in-arms?

Somehow, I doubt it.
by a_civilian
I read Jarhead by Anthony Swofford. I have friends who have served in the military, including peace keeping in former Yugoslavia and Cypres. This article had a lot of resonance.

You want to serve your country? Pay your fucking taxes.
by ken morgan (generalstrike2000 [at] yahoo.com)
Saying that all leftitst have never spoken to a GI is a bit off the mark. My father was a 30 year NCO lifer, and a veteran of WW II, Korea, and Vietnam. I spent 3 years in the Army including a year in Vietnam. That experience, plus a couple of recessions, that were particularly devastating to Vietnam veterans, is what radicalized me. Re the US mission in Iraq: thus far has been to set up a puppet government, reduce the minimum wage for Iraqi workers, the elimination of housing and food subsidies for low income workers, denying Iraqi workers the right to organize into unions of their choice, the privatization of over 200 Iraqi firms, that can be 100% owned by foreigners, with all profits removed from the country, and a flat tax on income. In short, Non-Anarchist what you and your fellow soldiers are fighting and dying for in Iraq is a right wing economic agenda, that has nothing to do with democracy. You are serving a right wing government that will treat veterans of the Iraq war the same way the right wing treated veterans of the Vietnam war: "you're good enough to fight our wars, but not good enough to be part of our society". I included my e-mail address, non-anarchist, in case you want to contact me directly.
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