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JUSTICE TOUR SLANDERED BY GROUPS CHARGING ANTI-SEMITISM
Wheels of Justice tour members were saddened but not surprised to see two male protestors dressed as suicide bombers making a joke of the deaths of Israelis and Palestinians at this rally for human rights.
Thursday, December 11th, 2003
Berkeley, CA
By John Farrell and Lauren Anzaldo
Our colorful Wheels of Justice peace bus rolled into Palo Alto on Dec. 10 for a rally organized by the Peninsula Peace and Justice Center to commemorate International Human Rights Day. We spoke as eyewitnesses to the blatant disregard for human rights committed by the Israeli and U.S. occupying authorities in Palestine and Iraq, respectively. We also explained our work supporting nonviolent direct action and grassroots organizing among Iraqi and Palestinian people working for justice.
The Wheels of Justice cross-country bus tour is co-sponsored by Middle East Children's Alliance, Voices in the Wilderness, Al-Awda, and representatives from the International Solidarity Movement. In its mission statement and platform, the Wheels of Justice tour affirms human rights for all people of the world and specifically denounces the violence of war, terror, and occupation.
About 180 people attended the rally in front of the Palo Alto City Hall. About 100 of those people, organized in part by the Jewish Community Relations Council, protested the presence of the Wheels of Justice tour by holding U.S. and Israeli flags and signs with statements such as "Teaching Hate is not a Human Right" and "Suicide Bombings are War Crimes." (Two examples which can also be found on the JCRC website).
We welcomed the display of free speech in the plaza, especially since we, too, oppose the teaching of hate, but we were appalled to see that two male protestors were dressed as suicide bombers. They had red plastic tubes duct-taped like sticks of dynamite to their chests and black-and-white-checked coverings on their heads. This mean-spirited mockery of violence was disturbing and confusing when seen next to signs -- such as one held by another protester -- that read "Peace, Salaam, Shalom."
Unfortunately, we were not surprised to see these men making a joke of the deaths of Israelis and Palestinians and perpetuating the pervasive, racist stereotype of the "violent Arab male" at this rally for human rights. We had anticipated their presence at this gathering.
On Monday, Dec. 8, we spoke by telephone with someone who called himself Terry McAuliff and claimed to be a reporter with the Independent Media Center of San Francisco. At first, our respective interviews with McAuliff seemed fine, but we reconsidered when he grew more combative and intrusive in his questions. He grilled us on our "political affiliations," how we were "recruited" to work with Voices in the Wilderness and the International Solidarity Movement, and if we had "converted" any of our audience members.
We were both suspicious of McAuliff when he said that he would not be able to meet with us in person when we came to the Bay Area because he had a big deadline to meet with the "bosses" at Indymedia. Since McAuliff had called us from a blocked phone number, we called the San Francisco Independent Media Center and asked if someone by that name worked there. No one at the IMC was familiar with McAuliff.
In our telephone conversations with him, McAuliff repeatedly referred to our appearance in Ukiah, Calif., on Dec. 4, so we called our Ukiah contacts and asked if they had had similar experiences. We found out that one of the people who had welcomed us in Ukiah had received a similar phone call from a man who called himself Lee Kaplan. Kaplan had asked her many of the same questions that McAuliff asked us. With a little more detective work, we found out that a man named Lee Kaplan is also involved with an organization called Dafka, or in Hebrew, "In Your Face." One of our Ukiah contacts gave us the phone number Kaplan had given her.
With this information, we feared that we were being trailed, harassed and lied to by at least one member of Dafka, so we decided to visit the Dafka website (http://www.dafka.org) for more information. There we discovered that members of Dafka had been encouraged to attend the rally that evening for International Human Rights Day in Palo Alto dressed as suicide bombers! We also found on the website inaccurate comments about the Wheels of Justice tour, including the following quote, listed without any supporting arguments or documentation: "Please join us in combatting (sic) fascism and anti-Semitism. Remember, our cause is for demcoracy, (sic) freedom of religion and human rights. Theirs is for dictatorship, anti-Semitism, communism and nihilism."
We then called the phone number we had for Lee Kaplan and asked to speak with Terry McAuliff. The man who answered the phone identified himself as McAuliff. We informed him that we had found no record of anyone working by his name at the San Francisco Indymedia Center. When we asked McAuliff if his was the same phone number as Lee Kaplan's, McAuliff quickly said that he didn't know what we were talking about and that he didn't have time to talk because he was running out the door.
At the rally that evening, Dafka distributed fliers that included lies and distortions about the Wheels of Justice tour too numerous to include in totality. Here is one example from the Dafka flier: "Words used by this group (WoJ) such as "Peace" and "Justice"= Israel being driven into the sea to be replaced by another Arab Muslim dictatorship . . ."
We would like to reiterate that most of the protestors at the rally were there to peacefully express their opinions, but it was apparent to us from our observation and conversations with people afterwards that most of the protestors did not pay attention to the speeches that they were there to protest. This is especially troubling to us now that we know what sort of libel that groups such as Dafka were giving to people in the crowd. If this is the sort of misinformation that people are receiving, then how can we ever have an honest dialogue about these issues?
However, there are also groups such as Jews Against the Occupation, which has endorsed the Wheels of Justice tour, and Jews For a Free Palestine (http://www.renouncealiyah.us), which recently issued an invitation for their members to support the Wheels of Justice tour in the face of the JCRC's charges of anti-Semitism. Specifically, Jews For a Free Palestine has publicly invited people in the Bay Area to join the tour at our appearance in MLK park in Berkeley from 11 a.m. to 2 p.m. Saturday, Dec. 13. We are extremely grateful for this support, and we would like to extend this invitation as well to the other events that we will be holding in the Bay Area. You can find our tour schedule on the Wheels of Justice tour website (http://www.justicewheels.org) or the Middle East Children's Alliance website (http://www.mecaforpeace.org).
Berkeley, CA
By John Farrell and Lauren Anzaldo
Our colorful Wheels of Justice peace bus rolled into Palo Alto on Dec. 10 for a rally organized by the Peninsula Peace and Justice Center to commemorate International Human Rights Day. We spoke as eyewitnesses to the blatant disregard for human rights committed by the Israeli and U.S. occupying authorities in Palestine and Iraq, respectively. We also explained our work supporting nonviolent direct action and grassroots organizing among Iraqi and Palestinian people working for justice.
The Wheels of Justice cross-country bus tour is co-sponsored by Middle East Children's Alliance, Voices in the Wilderness, Al-Awda, and representatives from the International Solidarity Movement. In its mission statement and platform, the Wheels of Justice tour affirms human rights for all people of the world and specifically denounces the violence of war, terror, and occupation.
About 180 people attended the rally in front of the Palo Alto City Hall. About 100 of those people, organized in part by the Jewish Community Relations Council, protested the presence of the Wheels of Justice tour by holding U.S. and Israeli flags and signs with statements such as "Teaching Hate is not a Human Right" and "Suicide Bombings are War Crimes." (Two examples which can also be found on the JCRC website).
We welcomed the display of free speech in the plaza, especially since we, too, oppose the teaching of hate, but we were appalled to see that two male protestors were dressed as suicide bombers. They had red plastic tubes duct-taped like sticks of dynamite to their chests and black-and-white-checked coverings on their heads. This mean-spirited mockery of violence was disturbing and confusing when seen next to signs -- such as one held by another protester -- that read "Peace, Salaam, Shalom."
Unfortunately, we were not surprised to see these men making a joke of the deaths of Israelis and Palestinians and perpetuating the pervasive, racist stereotype of the "violent Arab male" at this rally for human rights. We had anticipated their presence at this gathering.
On Monday, Dec. 8, we spoke by telephone with someone who called himself Terry McAuliff and claimed to be a reporter with the Independent Media Center of San Francisco. At first, our respective interviews with McAuliff seemed fine, but we reconsidered when he grew more combative and intrusive in his questions. He grilled us on our "political affiliations," how we were "recruited" to work with Voices in the Wilderness and the International Solidarity Movement, and if we had "converted" any of our audience members.
We were both suspicious of McAuliff when he said that he would not be able to meet with us in person when we came to the Bay Area because he had a big deadline to meet with the "bosses" at Indymedia. Since McAuliff had called us from a blocked phone number, we called the San Francisco Independent Media Center and asked if someone by that name worked there. No one at the IMC was familiar with McAuliff.
In our telephone conversations with him, McAuliff repeatedly referred to our appearance in Ukiah, Calif., on Dec. 4, so we called our Ukiah contacts and asked if they had had similar experiences. We found out that one of the people who had welcomed us in Ukiah had received a similar phone call from a man who called himself Lee Kaplan. Kaplan had asked her many of the same questions that McAuliff asked us. With a little more detective work, we found out that a man named Lee Kaplan is also involved with an organization called Dafka, or in Hebrew, "In Your Face." One of our Ukiah contacts gave us the phone number Kaplan had given her.
With this information, we feared that we were being trailed, harassed and lied to by at least one member of Dafka, so we decided to visit the Dafka website (http://www.dafka.org) for more information. There we discovered that members of Dafka had been encouraged to attend the rally that evening for International Human Rights Day in Palo Alto dressed as suicide bombers! We also found on the website inaccurate comments about the Wheels of Justice tour, including the following quote, listed without any supporting arguments or documentation: "Please join us in combatting (sic) fascism and anti-Semitism. Remember, our cause is for demcoracy, (sic) freedom of religion and human rights. Theirs is for dictatorship, anti-Semitism, communism and nihilism."
We then called the phone number we had for Lee Kaplan and asked to speak with Terry McAuliff. The man who answered the phone identified himself as McAuliff. We informed him that we had found no record of anyone working by his name at the San Francisco Indymedia Center. When we asked McAuliff if his was the same phone number as Lee Kaplan's, McAuliff quickly said that he didn't know what we were talking about and that he didn't have time to talk because he was running out the door.
At the rally that evening, Dafka distributed fliers that included lies and distortions about the Wheels of Justice tour too numerous to include in totality. Here is one example from the Dafka flier: "Words used by this group (WoJ) such as "Peace" and "Justice"= Israel being driven into the sea to be replaced by another Arab Muslim dictatorship . . ."
We would like to reiterate that most of the protestors at the rally were there to peacefully express their opinions, but it was apparent to us from our observation and conversations with people afterwards that most of the protestors did not pay attention to the speeches that they were there to protest. This is especially troubling to us now that we know what sort of libel that groups such as Dafka were giving to people in the crowd. If this is the sort of misinformation that people are receiving, then how can we ever have an honest dialogue about these issues?
However, there are also groups such as Jews Against the Occupation, which has endorsed the Wheels of Justice tour, and Jews For a Free Palestine (http://www.renouncealiyah.us), which recently issued an invitation for their members to support the Wheels of Justice tour in the face of the JCRC's charges of anti-Semitism. Specifically, Jews For a Free Palestine has publicly invited people in the Bay Area to join the tour at our appearance in MLK park in Berkeley from 11 a.m. to 2 p.m. Saturday, Dec. 13. We are extremely grateful for this support, and we would like to extend this invitation as well to the other events that we will be holding in the Bay Area. You can find our tour schedule on the Wheels of Justice tour website (http://www.justicewheels.org) or the Middle East Children's Alliance website (http://www.mecaforpeace.org).
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I wouldn't be surprised if the mainstream media picks up on this and distorts the facts to say that it was "Arabs" who were dressed up as suicide bombers at this meeting instead of pro-Israeli fanatics posing as them.
It's clear from the above article the underhanded tactics some zealous supporters of Israel are willing to undertake in order to undermine justice for Palestinians and Iraqis.
Before believing anything you see or read (especially if it claims to be pro-Palestinian), consider the language and end result the message intends. It may very well be pro-Israeli zealots infiltrating the movement in order to smear it.
It's clear from the above article the underhanded tactics some zealous supporters of Israel are willing to undertake in order to undermine justice for Palestinians and Iraqis.
Before believing anything you see or read (especially if it claims to be pro-Palestinian), consider the language and end result the message intends. It may very well be pro-Israeli zealots infiltrating the movement in order to smear it.
if the article says there are 5 comments, but only 1 is showing, does that mean the others were censored? Or is it a glitch with the program? Or something else?
He must be so deluded as to think that Israel is a democracy. What a joke! A true democracy is equal rights for all, not just for Jews, for example, as is the case in Israel. How could he not know about the relentless ethnic cleansing and apartheid regime that Israel is completely guilty of?
It's sad to think that he and many like him are so deluded and self-absorbed. Their souls must be rotting. It's not too late to change, Zionists! Repent! Ask forgiveness! Sin no more! Join the human family!
It's sad to think that he and many like him are so deluded and self-absorbed. Their souls must be rotting. It's not too late to change, Zionists! Repent! Ask forgiveness! Sin no more! Join the human family!
The PLO -- at least its dominant faction, Fatah -- long ago sold out the Palestinians in all essentials. I'm referring, inter alia, to the recognition of the right of the Jewish-supremacist State of Israel to 78% of Palestine and, especially, to the Oslo accords, wherein the PLO leadership agreed to become the Arabenrat for the Israeli occupiers. If I recall correctly, they carried out this task -- many lining their own pockets in the process -- with the aid of the CIA.
It was the Zionist leadership that broke this deal with Sharon's provocation in the Fall of 2000, probably after they realized that the Palestinian people were getting fed up with the Oslo fraud anyway. But the ZIonists have always broken deals when they had the strength to get more by doing so.
If the Israelis were to stop discriminating against, oppressing and killing Palestinians, they wouldn't "need" a wall to protect them. Of course, the wall is mainly a land grab and an attempt to make life unbearable for Palestinians, to make the land Arabrein. ZioNazis, like AryaNazis, will always want more land. They can't be appeased. They must be stopped!
It was the Zionist leadership that broke this deal with Sharon's provocation in the Fall of 2000, probably after they realized that the Palestinian people were getting fed up with the Oslo fraud anyway. But the ZIonists have always broken deals when they had the strength to get more by doing so.
If the Israelis were to stop discriminating against, oppressing and killing Palestinians, they wouldn't "need" a wall to protect them. Of course, the wall is mainly a land grab and an attempt to make life unbearable for Palestinians, to make the land Arabrein. ZioNazis, like AryaNazis, will always want more land. They can't be appeased. They must be stopped!
A level headed analysis of the dispute's progress reveals it is the Palestinian side that has carried itsef the Nazi way in various aspects, including the most substantial. Yet another "enlightened" leftist brimming with love and compassion toward humanity tars the Zionist side and/or its supporters with the Nazi label.
>>>"The PLO -- at least its dominant faction, Fatah -- long ago sold out the Palestinians in all essentials.
Give us a break.
>>>" I'm referring, inter alia, to the recognition of the right of the Jewish-supremacist State of Israel to 78% of Palestine and, especially, to the Oslo accords,"<<<
Evidently, at least until Arafat's departure, it was only on the declarative level.
>>>"[the Oslo accords] wherein the PLO leadership agreed to become the Arabenrat for the Israeli occupiers."<<<
Another inflammatory mischaracterization which doesn't help matters.
>>>It was the Zionist leadership that broke this deal with Sharon's provocation in the Fall of 2000, probably after they realized that the Palestinian people were getting fed up with the Oslo fraud anyway. But the ZIonists have always broken deals when they had the strength to get more by doing so."<<<
Given that the late "historian" Edward Said once declared "there are no more facts; only opinions matter", one shouldn't be too surprised at reading this rewritten version of history.
>>>"If the Israelis were to stop discriminating against, oppressing and killing Palestinians, they wouldn't "need" a wall to protect them. Of course, the wall is mainly a land grab and an attempt to make life unbearable for Palestinians, to make the land Arabrein."<<<
To the contrary -- these nonsensical claims stand the truth on its head. The "wall" is being constructed to enable the Israelis to remove themselves from the situation the poo'-poo' Palestinian terrorists have caused them to get into wherein they must oppress, discriminate against and kill some Palestinians, and restrict their presence to the Jewish populated areas beyond the Green Line. The "wall" 's purpose is to make life much easier for the Palestinians.
>>>"ZioNazis, like AryaNazis, will always want more land. They can't be appeased. They must be stopped!"<<<
Is this loony exclamation made because tomorrow's New Year's Eve? What does the writer intend to do to stop these mythical creatures?
>>>"The PLO -- at least its dominant faction, Fatah -- long ago sold out the Palestinians in all essentials.
Give us a break.
>>>" I'm referring, inter alia, to the recognition of the right of the Jewish-supremacist State of Israel to 78% of Palestine and, especially, to the Oslo accords,"<<<
Evidently, at least until Arafat's departure, it was only on the declarative level.
>>>"[the Oslo accords] wherein the PLO leadership agreed to become the Arabenrat for the Israeli occupiers."<<<
Another inflammatory mischaracterization which doesn't help matters.
>>>It was the Zionist leadership that broke this deal with Sharon's provocation in the Fall of 2000, probably after they realized that the Palestinian people were getting fed up with the Oslo fraud anyway. But the ZIonists have always broken deals when they had the strength to get more by doing so."<<<
Given that the late "historian" Edward Said once declared "there are no more facts; only opinions matter", one shouldn't be too surprised at reading this rewritten version of history.
>>>"If the Israelis were to stop discriminating against, oppressing and killing Palestinians, they wouldn't "need" a wall to protect them. Of course, the wall is mainly a land grab and an attempt to make life unbearable for Palestinians, to make the land Arabrein."<<<
To the contrary -- these nonsensical claims stand the truth on its head. The "wall" is being constructed to enable the Israelis to remove themselves from the situation the poo'-poo' Palestinian terrorists have caused them to get into wherein they must oppress, discriminate against and kill some Palestinians, and restrict their presence to the Jewish populated areas beyond the Green Line. The "wall" 's purpose is to make life much easier for the Palestinians.
>>>"ZioNazis, like AryaNazis, will always want more land. They can't be appeased. They must be stopped!"<<<
Is this loony exclamation made because tomorrow's New Year's Eve? What does the writer intend to do to stop these mythical creatures?
The wall's purpose is to make life much easier for the Palestinians ...
like the Warsaw Ghetto's purpose was to make life much easier for the Jews!
--------------------
If somebody posted the latter statement here without apparent irony, it would probably be deleted quite quickly. Unfortunately, pro-Jewish or anti-Arab bigotry is much more tolerated, even in left circles, than is anti-Jewish bigotry.
like the Warsaw Ghetto's purpose was to make life much easier for the Jews!
--------------------
If somebody posted the latter statement here without apparent irony, it would probably be deleted quite quickly. Unfortunately, pro-Jewish or anti-Arab bigotry is much more tolerated, even in left circles, than is anti-Jewish bigotry.
Thanks to the security barrier, there are fewer dead, Palestinians and Israelis.
a derogatory one at that.
The Warsaw Jews hadn't been a threat to the Nazis. Those Jews were victims of unprovoked aggression. Conversely, many Palestinians wrongly being perceived as innocent lambs have been actively threatening Israel non-stop since before the intifada and committing aggression that has caused casualties and damage to property, not to mention extensive theft. Those Palestinians have had Israel semi-beleaguered, not the other way around.
The Warsaw ghetto analogy is fundamentally flawed for other reasons as well.
As for silencing dissent, it would seem the derogatory equation of Israel's security fence to the Warsaw ghetto would be the one to be removed in quite a few cyber locations.
The Warsaw Jews hadn't been a threat to the Nazis. Those Jews were victims of unprovoked aggression. Conversely, many Palestinians wrongly being perceived as innocent lambs have been actively threatening Israel non-stop since before the intifada and committing aggression that has caused casualties and damage to property, not to mention extensive theft. Those Palestinians have had Israel semi-beleaguered, not the other way around.
The Warsaw ghetto analogy is fundamentally flawed for other reasons as well.
As for silencing dissent, it would seem the derogatory equation of Israel's security fence to the Warsaw ghetto would be the one to be removed in quite a few cyber locations.
So were the Palestinians. Foreign invaders showed up and started killing them and stealing their property. Of *course* they resist, and all moral people wish them success at it.
By "foreign invaders" you mean the so-called "Palestinians", don't you?
I mean the Jews who came from Europe and America, another bunch of colonialists come to steal another piece of land from another bunch of indigents, and herd its rightful owners onto reservations, just like in all those other places.
And where came the so-called "Palestinians" from?
And where did the so-called "Palestinians" come from?
As for the ones who weren't, what gives them less a right to live there than the Jews who came from Europe and America?
And what is the birthplace of Jews? And where was Jesus born?
"As for the ones who weren't, what gives them less a right to live there than the Jews who came from Europe and America?"
The "Palestinians" who weren't from there are also living there.
What you don't like is the Jews living there. Would you like the Jews living somewhere else, by any chance?
<<Another morally reprehensible statement and lie that has been refuted multiple times.>>
Hey, C(re)T(in), you're supposed to argue your position. References to past alleged refutations don't cut it.
Hey, C(re)T(in), you're supposed to argue your position. References to past alleged refutations don't cut it.
What I don't like is Jews lording it over non Jews. It is no different than Aryans lording it over non Aryans. It's the same thing. It's wrong. it's immoral. It *will* be brought to an end.
A.a.r.o.n, am I supposed to argue my position the abysmal way you did yours before you ran off the other thread and left town?
How, through your cyber militancy that's rife with morally preposterous and factually invalid comparisons?
By any means necessary. Peacefully would be better, but if that doesn't work, then by violence.
Any person rallying to your anti-Zionist flag that will actively attempt to take up arms against Israel will be struck down.
Those who try to execute your ideas for the Land of Israel through more benign tactics will go ignored by most Israeli Jews.
Those who try to execute your ideas for the Land of Israel through more benign tactics will go ignored by most Israeli Jews.
And look what happened to them. The State of Israel is a passing blip in history. Sooner or later, the sooner the better, we'll all bid it farewell, just as we did the Third Reich. Good riddance to bad rubbish. Down with any racist state. Up with equality for all.
you're so infatuated with your silly gehrigesque turns of phrase that you think they stand in for an actual argument...
if you're referring to the thread in which (after a transparent attempt to avoid the matter) you admitted that some of the most powerful antisemites in America, past and present are/were zealous supporters of Israel (the same thread where you denied being under the thrall of neoconservative idiotology and then preoceeded to cite Robert Kaplan--a neoconservative--as more your cup of tea)....well, yes, i'm willing to "reenter" that debate if you can find the link to it....
if you're referring to the thread in which (after a transparent attempt to avoid the matter) you admitted that some of the most powerful antisemites in America, past and present are/were zealous supporters of Israel (the same thread where you denied being under the thrall of neoconservative idiotology and then preoceeded to cite Robert Kaplan--a neoconservative--as more your cup of tea)....well, yes, i'm willing to "reenter" that debate if you can find the link to it....
I found Robert Kaplan through Google and hadn't been aware of him or his work.
I don't care how old (young) you may be. Go fetch for the link. It's up to you to prove you really want to pursue that debate and aren't chickening out.
I don't care how old (young) you may be. Go fetch for the link. It's up to you to prove you really want to pursue that debate and aren't chickening out.
bruja Piruja: "The "Palestinians" who weren't from there are also living there."
No comment to my previous statement.
-----
"What I don't like is Jews lording it over non Jews. It is no different than Aryans lording it over non Aryans. It's the same thing. It's wrong. it's immoral. It *will* be brought to an end. "
That's very nice. So you want the "Palestinian" invaders to lord over the aborigen population.
I want to see every Palestinian, be they Jewish, Arab, Druze, Armenian, or whatever, living together as equals in a secular society in which it doesn't matter who your mother was or what name you use for deity.
You want to see every Palestinian living together as equals.
That's exactly what happens: Israeli citizens are all equal, be they Jews, Arabs, Druze...
If you feel like protesting against countries where citizens are not equal and which are not secular, you could have made the right choice. There are lots of them, but not Israel. You could protest against the PA, for instance.
I looked for the link mentioned above last monday, when I had a quick chance to do so, and couldn't find it. Perhaps the indymedia editors didn't see a point in keeping it around...
I have my faults, but shying away from debate isn't one of them. It's more plausible to say I'm faulty for bothering to debate a neocon cretin like you--who doesn't even know whose tune he's whistling--than the opposite. So cut the crap about me being too chicken to continue the debate. Even a dumbass like you doesn't believe *that*.
I notice you'll do anything to avoid alluding to the FACT that many of the most powerful antisemites in American society, past and present, are or were zealous supporters of Israel. Why's that, CreTy?
I have my faults, but shying away from debate isn't one of them. It's more plausible to say I'm faulty for bothering to debate a neocon cretin like you--who doesn't even know whose tune he's whistling--than the opposite. So cut the crap about me being too chicken to continue the debate. Even a dumbass like you doesn't believe *that*.
I notice you'll do anything to avoid alluding to the FACT that many of the most powerful antisemites in American society, past and present, are or were zealous supporters of Israel. Why's that, CreTy?
(1.) All Israeli citizens are *not* equal. For example, Jews may buy and own land that is not legally available to non Jews.
(2.) Israeli citizens are not the only the only people under control of the Israeli government. Half of Palestine is the so-called "Occupied Territories." There, people have *no* rights whatsoever. They've been under Israeli martial law since before half of them were even born.
(2.) Israeli citizens are not the only the only people under control of the Israeli government. Half of Palestine is the so-called "Occupied Territories." There, people have *no* rights whatsoever. They've been under Israeli martial law since before half of them were even born.
Whether the thread has been hidden or not, doesn't matter. Your excuse and face saving is transparent and pathetic. Your protestations about how shying away from debate isn't a trait of yours cannot be taken seriously under the circumstances.
The epithets you're heaping on me are just a means to soften the blow your pride and honor have sustained. Too bad, 'cause it ain't working.
I did allude to the fact that some of the past and present "most powerful" antisemites in the US were at least avid Israel suppoters on the thread in question. I won't rehash this issue here. Now either reenter that thread or hush up.
The epithets you're heaping on me are just a means to soften the blow your pride and honor have sustained. Too bad, 'cause it ain't working.
I did allude to the fact that some of the past and present "most powerful" antisemites in the US were at least avid Israel suppoters on the thread in question. I won't rehash this issue here. Now either reenter that thread or hush up.
>Half of Palestine is the so-called "Occupied Territories."
There, people have *no* rights whatsoever.
The so-called occupied territories are about 22% of western Palestine. Jordan is eastern Palestine. It's wrong to claim people have no rights at all under Israeli martial law. That's a brazen lie.
There, people have *no* rights whatsoever.
The so-called occupied territories are about 22% of western Palestine. Jordan is eastern Palestine. It's wrong to claim people have no rights at all under Israeli martial law. That's a brazen lie.
Palestine lies between the river and the sea.
>It's wrong to claim people have no rights at all under Israeli martial law. That's a brazen lie.
Under martial law anywhere, only soldiers have rights.
>It's wrong to claim people have no rights at all under Israeli martial law. That's a brazen lie.
Under martial law anywhere, only soldiers have rights.
> Palestine includes that territory (western Palestine) as well as the Kingdom of Jordan (eastern Palestine. This fact will remain no matter how many times you try to get smart to it.
(1.) It's not a fact. It's Zionist propaganda. If it were not, they could show us a lot of pre-Zionist maps, not drawn by Zionists or by Zionist sympathizers, that backed up their claim.
(2.) Just because they call me a liar does not make it so. Where is the proof?
(3.) Even if what they said were true, it would not change the facts on the ground. The Zionist entity *occupies* the land between the river and the sea. This is an act of brutal, racist, colonialist aggression.
>That's another lie.
Blah, blah, blah. Where’s the proof? Soldiers are allowed to murder innocent children in cold blood. Civilians are not allowed to defend themselves. That’s martial law. Only the soldiers have rights.
(1.) It's not a fact. It's Zionist propaganda. If it were not, they could show us a lot of pre-Zionist maps, not drawn by Zionists or by Zionist sympathizers, that backed up their claim.
(2.) Just because they call me a liar does not make it so. Where is the proof?
(3.) Even if what they said were true, it would not change the facts on the ground. The Zionist entity *occupies* the land between the river and the sea. This is an act of brutal, racist, colonialist aggression.
>That's another lie.
Blah, blah, blah. Where’s the proof? Soldiers are allowed to murder innocent children in cold blood. Civilians are not allowed to defend themselves. That’s martial law. Only the soldiers have rights.
See:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/ottomap.html
Note that even the Jewish Virtual Library admits that what is now Jordan was part of the Vilayet of Syria while part of Palestine was the Independent Sanjak of Jerusalem and the rest was part of the Vilayet of Beruit.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/ottomap.html
Note that even the Jewish Virtual Library admits that what is now Jordan was part of the Vilayet of Syria while part of Palestine was the Independent Sanjak of Jerusalem and the rest was part of the Vilayet of Beruit.
>> Palestine includes that territory (western Palestine) as well as the Kingdom of Jordan (eastern Palestine. This fact will remain no matter how many times you try to get smart to it.
>(1.) It's not a fact. It's Zionist propaganda. If it were not, they could show us a lot of pre-Zionist maps, not drawn by Zionists or by Zionist sympathizers, that backed up their claim.
To your chagrin it's a fact. I don't need to show you any map, text sufficies. For instance, read below the header "By Todd Bolen, producer" on http://www.bibleplaces.com/surveywesternpalestinemaps.htm . As you note there, the phrase "Western Palestine" frequently recurs. It wouldn't be used if there weren't an Eastern Palestine. You need to brush up on your logic.
>(2.) Just because they call me a liar does not make it so. Where is the proof?
I've proven it. Keep lying about it if it makes you feel jazz. You don't value truth anyway
>(3.) Blah blah.
Not so.
>>That's another lie.
>Blah, blah, blah. Where’s the proof? Soldiers are allowed to murder innocent children in cold blood. Civilians are not allowed to defend themselves. That’s martial law. Only the soldiers have rights.
Martial law varies slightly from one military to another. Your new claim (" Soldiers are allowed to murder innocent children in cold blood") is a lie at least where the IDF is concerned. And I'm familiar with the situation in those territories, so don't dare call me a liar. I know the facts. You're lying.
>(1.) It's not a fact. It's Zionist propaganda. If it were not, they could show us a lot of pre-Zionist maps, not drawn by Zionists or by Zionist sympathizers, that backed up their claim.
To your chagrin it's a fact. I don't need to show you any map, text sufficies. For instance, read below the header "By Todd Bolen, producer" on http://www.bibleplaces.com/surveywesternpalestinemaps.htm . As you note there, the phrase "Western Palestine" frequently recurs. It wouldn't be used if there weren't an Eastern Palestine. You need to brush up on your logic.
>(2.) Just because they call me a liar does not make it so. Where is the proof?
I've proven it. Keep lying about it if it makes you feel jazz. You don't value truth anyway
>(3.) Blah blah.
Not so.
>>That's another lie.
>Blah, blah, blah. Where’s the proof? Soldiers are allowed to murder innocent children in cold blood. Civilians are not allowed to defend themselves. That’s martial law. Only the soldiers have rights.
Martial law varies slightly from one military to another. Your new claim (" Soldiers are allowed to murder innocent children in cold blood") is a lie at least where the IDF is concerned. And I'm familiar with the situation in those territories, so don't dare call me a liar. I know the facts. You're lying.
That's because the maps contradict the Zionist lies. Don't listen to the liars lie. Look at the map and see for yourself. And keep in mind that even if they were telling the truth, they'd still be occupying the land between the river and the sea. It's a brutal, racist, colonialist occupation no matter what you call the land it takes place on.
And yeah, IDF troopers *do* murder innocent children in cold blood on a regular basis. No, none of them hang for it. Occasionally, when the western press catches one doing it on film, one gets a symbolic reprimand, but that's all. These murderers should hang, and not after a trial, either. They should be lynched on the spot from the nearest light pole, just like their grandfathers lynched those British soldiers who occupied the same land in the same way. That would be justice.
And yeah, IDF troopers *do* murder innocent children in cold blood on a regular basis. No, none of them hang for it. Occasionally, when the western press catches one doing it on film, one gets a symbolic reprimand, but that's all. These murderers should hang, and not after a trial, either. They should be lynched on the spot from the nearest light pole, just like their grandfathers lynched those British soldiers who occupied the same land in the same way. That would be justice.
There are many maps that can be looked.
You're lying and can't get over it.
>And yeah, IDF troopers *do* murder innocent children in cold blood on a regular basis.
Prove it. I never take a rabid, nessiesque anti-Zionist by his/her word. They're too notorious for lying to be believed without proof. Rememeber you have to prove *regular basis", and not by distorting, exaggerating, telling half-truths or lying outright about accidents and collateral damage.
>They should be lynched on the spot from the nearest light pole, just like their grandfathers lynched those British soldiers who occupied the same land in the same way. That would be justice.
You're saying an entire present generation of young soldiers must be lynched because of a lynch the grandfathers of less than a dozen of them committed some 60 years ago? You're utterly sick and need to be committed to the nearest closed physiatric ward and sedated.
No one deserves to be punished for what their parents or grandparents did. Would you lynch every grandson of the SS members, the Wehmacht members and their European collaborators? Get out of my face sicko.
You're lying and can't get over it.
>And yeah, IDF troopers *do* murder innocent children in cold blood on a regular basis.
Prove it. I never take a rabid, nessiesque anti-Zionist by his/her word. They're too notorious for lying to be believed without proof. Rememeber you have to prove *regular basis", and not by distorting, exaggerating, telling half-truths or lying outright about accidents and collateral damage.
>They should be lynched on the spot from the nearest light pole, just like their grandfathers lynched those British soldiers who occupied the same land in the same way. That would be justice.
You're saying an entire present generation of young soldiers must be lynched because of a lynch the grandfathers of less than a dozen of them committed some 60 years ago? You're utterly sick and need to be committed to the nearest closed physiatric ward and sedated.
No one deserves to be punished for what their parents or grandparents did. Would you lynch every grandson of the SS members, the Wehmacht members and their European collaborators? Get out of my face sicko.
All the Israeli citizens have the same rights.
And it is one of the few places in the Middle East where Arab women may vote.
Official languages: Arabic and Hebrew.
In 2002, the Israeli Supreme Court also ruled that the government cannot allocate land based on religion or ethnicity, and may not prevent Arab citizens from living wherever they choose.
Most Arabs under Israeli control are subject to martial law. Even the ones who are Israeli citizens don't have the same land rights as Jews do.
It is a lie that the Israeli Arabs don't have the same rights as the other Israeli citizens.
Until they can return to live in their own homes, which were *stolen* from them by the Zionists, any claim of equality under Israeli rule is a transparent lie.
The claims of equality under Israeli rule pertain to the present. They aren't negated by the fact that many Arabs who were born in what's presently Israel proper can't return to any of their original homes that still exist.
The only valid question is to what extent the Arab Israeli citizens presently living in Israel proper enjoy equality.
The only valid question is to what extent the Arab Israeli citizens presently living in Israel proper enjoy equality.
What he means is that Israel belongs to the Arabs, such as Arab children are taught at school.
>The only valid question is to what extent the Arab Israeli citizens presently living in Israel proper enjoy equality.
They *stole* the homes of three quarters of a million people, and now they don't consider what becomes of this injustice to be a "valid" question!?!
That's Zionism in a nutshell. It's a pack of racist lies.
Zionists murder, steal, lie and dehumanize their victims. In short, they act like Nazis. Like Nazis, they *must* be stopped, by any means necessary.
They *stole* the homes of three quarters of a million people, and now they don't consider what becomes of this injustice to be a "valid" question!?!
That's Zionism in a nutshell. It's a pack of racist lies.
Zionists murder, steal, lie and dehumanize their victims. In short, they act like Nazis. Like Nazis, they *must* be stopped, by any means necessary.
An ad hominem isn't a worthy argument, let alone a rebuttal.
>>>"They *stole* the homes of three quarters of a million people, and now they don't consider what becomes of this injustice to be a "valid" question!?!
You heard me. Don't put my words through the "nessiefier". Moreover, You don't know exactly how many homes were appropriated, just as you don't know that at least 100,000 local Arab refugees were repatriated in the 1950s through the UN.
>>>"That's Zionism in a nutshell. It's a pack of racist lies. Zionists murder, steal, lie and dehumanize their victims. In short, they act like Nazis. Like Nazis, they *must* be stopped, by any means necessary. "<<<
Your slander and exaggerations keep underminding any kernel of truth and morality your arguments may contain. In fact, I personally laugh them off with a wave of my hand. You know, lots of your musings are promoting my health by keeping me entertained over a rather sustained period.
The only valid question is to what extent the Arab Israeli citizens presently living in Israel proper enjoy equality.
>>>"They *stole* the homes of three quarters of a million people, and now they don't consider what becomes of this injustice to be a "valid" question!?!
You heard me. Don't put my words through the "nessiefier". Moreover, You don't know exactly how many homes were appropriated, just as you don't know that at least 100,000 local Arab refugees were repatriated in the 1950s through the UN.
>>>"That's Zionism in a nutshell. It's a pack of racist lies. Zionists murder, steal, lie and dehumanize their victims. In short, they act like Nazis. Like Nazis, they *must* be stopped, by any means necessary. "<<<
Your slander and exaggerations keep underminding any kernel of truth and morality your arguments may contain. In fact, I personally laugh them off with a wave of my hand. You know, lots of your musings are promoting my health by keeping me entertained over a rather sustained period.
The only valid question is to what extent the Arab Israeli citizens presently living in Israel proper enjoy equality.
The only valid question is how long will the world tolerate this obscene, rascist thievery.
In Robert Fisk's "Pity the Nation" he visited people in Lebanon who had lost their homes, visted the homes and visited Israeli government offices were every home confiscation was documented. While Fisk is often accused of being anti-Israel he has a pretty extensive section in his book on how most Palestinians were (and still were in the 1980s) individually offered reasonable compensation for their lands (since the land ownership titles from British times were never destroyed and were maintained by the Israeli government) but almost all refused since they either wanted their land back (no matter what the value paid) or saw accepting payment as recognizing the state of Israel. It seems strange that there is very little disagreement between the Israeli government and Palestinians about what land ownership was like before the creation of Israel, but there is strong disagreement by their online supporters (who on both sides usualy dont realize there are hard facts in this case and its not subjective).
The subjective views one can build off the facts are over the justice of not allowing most people from one ethnic group back after a war (even if one does offer payment). I would just hope that both sides realize that individually almost all Palestinians kicked out had nothing to do with the war against Israel and individually most Israelis had nothing to do with denying Palestinians back (those were decissions made by governments and one cant blame people for the actions of governments when even in Democracies one often has large majorities opposing governmental decissions).
The subjective views one can build off the facts are over the justice of not allowing most people from one ethnic group back after a war (even if one does offer payment). I would just hope that both sides realize that individually almost all Palestinians kicked out had nothing to do with the war against Israel and individually most Israelis had nothing to do with denying Palestinians back (those were decissions made by governments and one cant blame people for the actions of governments when even in Democracies one often has large majorities opposing governmental decissions).
Why should they not want their land back? They were robbed.
"Why should they not want their land back? They were robbed."
They were robbed by Jordan and egypt who captured the territories maent for the "palestinians", and annexed the same. "palestinians: are a modern creation, created after the Arabs lost the Six Day War of anihilation
They were robbed by Jordan and egypt who captured the territories maent for the "palestinians", and annexed the same. "palestinians: are a modern creation, created after the Arabs lost the Six Day War of anihilation
Palestiniann identity is modern, but so are all national identities (nationalism only really emerged in its modern form in the mid to late 1800s. But just because Palestinian identity emerged in response to first the British colony and then in reaction to the creation of Irsael, that doesnt excuse the large numners of refugees not allowed to return to their houses. As with most conflicts things get confused as people blame groups for the actions of individuals and then attack other individuals out of hatred for the groups. For a person who used to live in what is now Israel who lost their land because of their ethnicity, talk of "Palestinians having not existed" is extremely offensive not because of some historical argument about group identy but because the anger is personal and no amount of historical arguments can make someone feel better about their personal home (or the home of a relative or friend) having been confiscated.
The recent nature of Palestinian identity (and all nationalisms) has no real bearing on the current conflict. For someone living in the West Bank under foriegn occupation with no real rights does it matter if what one calls oneself today is a new label? (one wouldnt respond to someone under Saddam Hussein complaining about oppression of Iraqis by pointing out that his opression of Iraqis isnt as bad because Iraqi identity is also recent with no real historical precidents) People were displaced from their homes in the late 40s and many are still angry about that; what one calls the people displaced or the actions of governments at the time hardly matters since those were beyond the control of those who lost their land. People are now living under oppressive curcumstances in the West Bank and Gaza and no amount of arguments about idenity or history will make peopel feel better about their current opression...
The recent nature of Palestinian identity (and all nationalisms) has no real bearing on the current conflict. For someone living in the West Bank under foriegn occupation with no real rights does it matter if what one calls oneself today is a new label? (one wouldnt respond to someone under Saddam Hussein complaining about oppression of Iraqis by pointing out that his opression of Iraqis isnt as bad because Iraqi identity is also recent with no real historical precidents) People were displaced from their homes in the late 40s and many are still angry about that; what one calls the people displaced or the actions of governments at the time hardly matters since those were beyond the control of those who lost their land. People are now living under oppressive curcumstances in the West Bank and Gaza and no amount of arguments about idenity or history will make peopel feel better about their current opression...
>>>"But just because Palestinian identity emerged in response to first the British colony and then in reaction to the creation of Irsael, that doesnt excuse the large numners of refugees not allowed to return to their houses."<<<
Besides the impractical issue of undoing the reality of Jews living on land where some of those refugees had dwelled, how many of the original and *genuine* 1948 refugees truly want to live in Israel proper under Israeli law and often totally surrounded by Jewish citizens? I wager that very few.
Secondly, what valid excuse/s exist/s not to allow the 1948 Jewish refugees from Judea-Samaria and Gaza to reclaim their stolen land and property? How many Palestinians are willing to tolerate such Jewish presence in their midst when so few of them can stand the Jewish residents already present? Let's keep in mind we're not talking here great numbers; it's much less than the parallel problem where at least tens of thousands of Arabs are concerned.
>>>"The recent nature of Palestinian identity (and all nationalisms) has no real bearing on the current conflict."<<<
If one separates the nationalistic aspect from the personal one, that is.
>>>"People are now living under oppressive curcumstances in the West Bank and Gaza and no amount of arguments about idenity or history will make peopel feel better about their current opression..."<<<
Of course even the most benign form of military rule under the most ideal of circumstances isn't oppressive-free, but the intifada and terror which are now twice as unnecessary than they had been during the Arafatian era have considerably magnified the oppression of Palestinians. It's high time Palestinians stopped looking as first and often only resort for external entities to blame for their oppressive circumstances instead of seizing the moment of truth that is burgeoning as we speak -- the Palestinian elections are just a few days ahead -- to remove all the obstacles many of them have placed in the way of peaceful co-existence, and give the Israelis a fair chance to remove the oppressive measures and concentrate on guarding the Jewish residents from those Palestinians who would still bend over backwards to try to harm them.
Besides the impractical issue of undoing the reality of Jews living on land where some of those refugees had dwelled, how many of the original and *genuine* 1948 refugees truly want to live in Israel proper under Israeli law and often totally surrounded by Jewish citizens? I wager that very few.
Secondly, what valid excuse/s exist/s not to allow the 1948 Jewish refugees from Judea-Samaria and Gaza to reclaim their stolen land and property? How many Palestinians are willing to tolerate such Jewish presence in their midst when so few of them can stand the Jewish residents already present? Let's keep in mind we're not talking here great numbers; it's much less than the parallel problem where at least tens of thousands of Arabs are concerned.
>>>"The recent nature of Palestinian identity (and all nationalisms) has no real bearing on the current conflict."<<<
If one separates the nationalistic aspect from the personal one, that is.
>>>"People are now living under oppressive curcumstances in the West Bank and Gaza and no amount of arguments about idenity or history will make peopel feel better about their current opression..."<<<
Of course even the most benign form of military rule under the most ideal of circumstances isn't oppressive-free, but the intifada and terror which are now twice as unnecessary than they had been during the Arafatian era have considerably magnified the oppression of Palestinians. It's high time Palestinians stopped looking as first and often only resort for external entities to blame for their oppressive circumstances instead of seizing the moment of truth that is burgeoning as we speak -- the Palestinian elections are just a few days ahead -- to remove all the obstacles many of them have placed in the way of peaceful co-existence, and give the Israelis a fair chance to remove the oppressive measures and concentrate on guarding the Jewish residents from those Palestinians who would still bend over backwards to try to harm them.
This is like saying, "If she didn't want slapped around, she should have let me rape her."
You're blaming the Israeli victims for fighting back both militarily and on the public relations stage.
Go right ahead and weep about how I'm "personalizing" it. That has no effect on me.
Go right ahead and weep about how I'm "personalizing" it. That has no effect on me.
The issue is Zionist identity. They think they have more rights that the rest of us. They victimise people who get in the way of their Nazoid, militaristic, ethnic nationalism. Now they expect us to sit idly by while they hold a pep rally for ethnic cleansing. That is the issue. Stay focused.
Native American identity didnt exist until they were attacked by Europeans, Iraqi identity didnt really exist until Saddam helped build it up as being seperate form the regionalist idenities beforehand, Indian identity didnt really exist before the British establishment of a colony that joined together groups that had never been part of the same country previously. Most European identities only solidified in the late 1800s (and in Eastern Europe after WWII).
The plight of modern Palestinians isnt lessened by the fact that the identity was mainly built up due to the losses of individuals who had not previously identied as being part of a single group. While the identity is broader today the Palestinian cause would not be lessed if one just defined Palestinian as meaning those individuals who lost their homes in the late 40s or anyone who had the misfortune of having their homes fall within territory now part of the West Bank or Gaza. If one is stuck in the West Bank or a refugee camp one probably isnt concerned about how one defines ones identity as much as oen is concerned with ones immediate suffering. If one has no citizenship, no hope for economic prosperity, and subject to curfews, house demolitions, checkpoints and the like, one starts identifying with others facing these same hardships.
The plight of modern Palestinians isnt lessened by the fact that the identity was mainly built up due to the losses of individuals who had not previously identied as being part of a single group. While the identity is broader today the Palestinian cause would not be lessed if one just defined Palestinian as meaning those individuals who lost their homes in the late 40s or anyone who had the misfortune of having their homes fall within territory now part of the West Bank or Gaza. If one is stuck in the West Bank or a refugee camp one probably isnt concerned about how one defines ones identity as much as oen is concerned with ones immediate suffering. If one has no citizenship, no hope for economic prosperity, and subject to curfews, house demolitions, checkpoints and the like, one starts identifying with others facing these same hardships.
that should have said "Eastern Europe after WWI" since that was when the Austro-Hungarian empire was divided up creating the possibility for stonger identities in the local regions (as it did with the dividing up of the Ottoman Empire at the same time).
The Arabs invented that Palestinian identity in order to weaken Israel and ethnically clean it of Jews.
Evidently no lie is too great for you.
Your portrayal of Zionists actually suits the Palestinian side far more.
Your portrayal of Zionists actually suits the Palestinian side far more.
What do you mean by atrocity? The existence of Israel or the terrorist attacks by the Palestinian terrorists?
I mean the use of military terrorism to enforce an apartheid society on the peoples of Palestine. That's an atrocity.
How shameless are these people? The let any Jew from anywhere move into Israel "proper" but the hundreds of thousand of Arabs whose homes they stole can't move back into their own homes. And they call this "not apartheid"!?! Do they take us for fools?
Then we'll believe you.
Indeed it is. It is also the personal view of a billions of other people.
It is also a demonstrable fact. Israel was established by ethnic cleansing. Those people lost their homes the same way all those former Yugoslavians lost their homes, by abandoning them while fleeing from certain rape and murder by ravenous packs of brutal ethnic cleansers. These people deserve their homes back and they deserve some very hefty compensation. Until that, at the very least, happens, billions of us will continue to despise Israelis, for the scum that they are. Apologies are in order, too. Until you’re sorry, as far as we’re concerned, you’re scum. You deserve no respect. You deserve no trade. You deserve nothing, least of all humanity’s company. Israel: pariah state. Is that what you want? Then keep on keeping on. Because that’s where you’re headed. Don't believe me? Take a poll.
It is also a demonstrable fact. Israel was established by ethnic cleansing. Those people lost their homes the same way all those former Yugoslavians lost their homes, by abandoning them while fleeing from certain rape and murder by ravenous packs of brutal ethnic cleansers. These people deserve their homes back and they deserve some very hefty compensation. Until that, at the very least, happens, billions of us will continue to despise Israelis, for the scum that they are. Apologies are in order, too. Until you’re sorry, as far as we’re concerned, you’re scum. You deserve no respect. You deserve no trade. You deserve nothing, least of all humanity’s company. Israel: pariah state. Is that what you want? Then keep on keeping on. Because that’s where you’re headed. Don't believe me? Take a poll.
What kind of human scum would consider hundreds of thousand of people being driven from their homes to be "of small magnitude"?
I mean besides Nazis.
I mean besides Nazis.
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