6th Rachel Corrie Banner Project on Nov. 17th in front of Cong. Lee's Office in Oakland

Be sure to check out the videos -- and not only because it gets obvious that the number of protesters gets smaller every time. Watch it to see what happens when normal people see Windy Out Wendy in person. The facial reactions of those passersby getting their earful of yammity-yammity-yammity are just classic.

Remember back in the day when Windy Out Wendy was projecting massive coast-to-coast protests about Rachel Corrie, people marching in the streets by the hundred thousand? Now she's having trouble drawing half a dozen to her own.

But _do_ keep at it, Windy Out Wendy.

@%<

At The Wall Must Fall event in North Beach yesterday, three or four counter-protesters staggered around the sodden turf, trying to keep an outsize Israeli flag from sagging, and steering clear of a prominently positioned banner showing Rachel Corrie's picture taken at Burning Man in 2002 together with a full frontal image of the bulldozer that some poor boy following orders used to kill her-- MADE IN USA stamped across it.

It is true that Barbara Lee's record on Israel is as reprehensible as that of almost any other member of Congress. Perhaps she is afraid her constituents would not approve, as they did her symbolic vote against invading and occupying Iraq, any serious objection to the -- what? -- $15 million a day? -- that US taxpayers spend on such things as bulldozers, in subsidizing this interminable and unbearably sadistic occupation.

the group to which Racheal Corrie belonged and which has been implicated in smuggling the suicide bombers to Israel responsible for the April 20th attack on Mike's Place in Tel Aviv (their website claims they only knew the bombers socially) as well as hiding arms and even harboring a wanted Islamic Jihand terrorist. Given that they are a terrorist support group that unabashedly defends terrorists

Terrorist attacks against the good people of Israel over the last few years:


October 4, 2003 Haifa 19 killed, 60 wounded Islamic Jihad Suicide
bombing in restaurant owned by Jews and Arabs

August 19, 2003 Jerusalem 22 killed, 135 wounded Hamas Suicide bombing
on a bus.

January 5, 2003 Tel Aviv 23 killed, 108 injured Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Two suicide bombers in an immigrant neighborhood

June 5, 2002 Megiddo 17 killed, 38 injured Islamic Jihad Car bomb
next to bus

May 27, 2002 Petah Tikvah 2 killed, 37 injured Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Suicide bomb in shopping mall

May 22, 2002 Rishon Lezion 2 killed, 40 wounded Suicide bomb on
pedestrian mall

May 19, 2002 Netanya 3 killed, 59 injured Hamas and the PFLP Suicide
bomb in market

May 7, 2002 Rishon Lezion 16 killed, 55 injured Hamas Suicide bomb
in pool hall

Apr 12, 2002 Jerusalem 6 killed, 104 injured Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Suicide bomb in Mahane Yehuda market

Apr 10, 2002 Kibbutz Yagur 8 killed, 22 injured Hamas Suicide
bombing on bus

March 31, 2002 Haifa 14 Killed, 40 Wounded Hamas Suicide bombing at
restaurant

March 29, 2002 Jerusalem 2 killed, 28 Wounded Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Suicide bombing at supermarket in Kiryat Yovel

March 27, 2002 Netanya 22 killed, 140 Wounded Hamas Suicide bombing
at Passover seder at Park Hotel

March 21, 2002 Jerusalem 3 killed, 86 Wounded Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Suicide bombing downtown

March 20, 2002 Afula 7 killed, 30 wounded Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Suicide bombing on bus

March 14, 2002 Karni-Netzarim road 3 Killed, 2 Wounded Fatah al-Aksa
Martyrs Brigade Remote Control Mine

March 12, 2002 near Kibbutz Matzuva 6 Killed, 7 Wounded Fatah al-Aksa
Martyrs Brigade Gunmen Ambush Vehicles

March 12, 2002 Kiryat Sefer checkpoint 1 Killed, 1 Wounded Shooting
Attack

March 11, 2002 Ashdod 1 Wounded Gunman Opens Fire at Bar Mitzvah

March 10, 2002 Netzarim 1 Killed Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade
Shooting Attack

March 9, 2002 Jerusalem 11 Killed, 54 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber at
Cafe

March 9, 2002 Netanya 2 Killed, 50 Wounded Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade 2 Gunmen Open Fire on a Promenade

March 7, 2002 Atzmona 5 Killed, 23 Wounded Terrorist Opens Fire and
Throws Grenades

March 7, 2002 Ariel 6+ Wounded Suicide Bomber in Hotel Lobby

March 5, 2002 Sderot 1 Baby Wounded Kassam Rocket

March 5, 2002 Afula 1 Killed, 10 Wounded Suicide Bomber on Bus

March 5, 2002 Tel Aviv 3 Killed, 35+ Wounded Gunman Opens Fire at
Restaurants

March 5, 2002 outside Bethlehem 1 Killed, 1 Wounded Gunman Ambushes
Vehicle

March 2, 2002 Jerusalem 10 Killed, 50+ Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Suicide Bomber outside Synagogue

February 27, 2002 West Bank 3 Wounded Fatah Female Suicide Bomber

February 25, 2002 Jerusalem 1 Killed, 8 Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Gunman Opens Fire at a Bus Stop

February 25, 2002 Gush Etzion 1 Killed, 1 Pregnant Woman Wounded Fatah
Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade Gunmen Open Fire on a Car

February 22, 2002 Efrat 1 Wounded Suicide Bomber in Supermarket

February 22, 2002 North of Jerusalem 1 Killed Fatah Drive-by Shooting

February 19, 2002 En Arik 6 Killed, 1 Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Gunmen Open Fire at Soldiers

February 18, 2002 Gush Katif 3 Killed, 4 Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa
Martyrs Brigade Gunfire and Bombs at Cars

February 18, 2002 near Jerusalem 1 Killed, 1 Injured Fatah Al-Aksa
Martyrs Brigade Car Bomb

February 16, 2002 Karnei Shomron 2 Killed, 27 Wounded Popular Front
for the Liberation of Palestine Suicide Bomber at Crowded Shopping
Mall

February 14, 2002 Gaza 3 Killed, 4 Wounded Mine Placed Under Tank

February 10, 2002 Be'er Sheva 2 Killed, 4 Wounded Hamas Drive-by
Shooting

February 8, 2002 Jerusalem 1 Killed 4 Teenagers with Knives

February 6, 2002 Moshav Hamra 2 Killed, 5 Wounded Hamas Gunmen
Infiltrates Moshav

January 30, 2002 Taiba 2 Wounded Fatah Suicide Bomber

January 27, 2002 Jerusalem 1 Killed, 150+ Wounded Fatah Female Suicide
Bomber

January 25, 2002 Tel Aviv 24 Wounded Islamic Jihad Suicide Bomber at
Crowded Pedestrian Shopping Mall

January 22, 2002 Jerusalem 2 Killed, 40 Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Guman Opens Fire on Crowd

January 17, 2002 Hadera 6 Killed, 35 Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Gunman Opens Fire at Bat Mitzvah Celebration

January 15, 2002 Beit Jala 1 Killed Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade
American Kidnapped and Murdered

January 9, 2002 Kerem Shalom 4 Killed, 2 Wounded Hamas Gunfire and
Expolsives

December 12, 2001 Emmanuel 10 Killed, 30 Wounded Fatah & Hamas Bomb
and Gunfire Attack on Bus

December 9, 2001 Haifa 31 Wounded Suicide Bomber

December 2, 2001 Haifa 15 Killed, 46 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber on
Bus

December 1, 2001 Jerusalem 10 Killed, 188+ Wounded Hamas 2 Suicide
Bombers and a Car Bomb in a Pedestrian Mall

November 29, 2001 near Hadera 3 Killed, 9 Wounded Islamic Jihad &
Fatah Suicide Bomber on Bus

November, 27, 2001 Afula 2 Killed, Dozens Wounded Islamic Jihad &
Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade 2 Gunmen Opened Fire on Crowd near the
Central Bus Station

November, 27, 2001 Gush Katif 1 Killed, 3 Wounded Hamas Grenades and
Gunfire

November 26, 2001 Erez Checkpoint 2 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber

November 24, 2001 Kfar Darom 1 Killed Hamas Morter Shell Landed on a
Soccer Field

November 4, 2001 Jerusalem 2 Killed, 50+ Wounded Islamic Jihad Gunman

October 28, 2001 Hadera 4 Killed, 40 Wounded Gunman

October 28, 2001 near Kibbutz Metzer 1 Killed Tanzim Drive-By
Shooting

October 17, 2001 Jerusalem Israeli Tourism Minister Rehavam Ze'evi
Assasinated Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine Gunmen in
Hotel

October 7, 2001 Beit She'an Valley 1 Killed Suicide Bomber

October 4, 2001 Afula 3 Killed, 16 Wounded Gunman Opens Fire on
Crowd

October 1, 2001 Jerusalem Several Wounded Car Bomb

September 9, 2001 Nahariya 3 Killed, 90 Wounded Hamas 1st
Israeli-Arab Suicide Bomber, at Train Station

September 9, 2001 West Bank 2 Killed, 4 Wounded Gunmen

September 4, 2001 Jerusalem 20 Wounded Suicide Bomber disguised as
Orthodox Jew

September 3, 2001 Jerusalem 3 Wounded Series of Car Bombs

August 12, 2001 Kiryat Motzkin 21 Wounded Islamic Jihad Suicide Bomber
at Cafe

August 9, 2001 Jerusalem 15 Killed, 130+ Wounded Islamic Jihad & Hamas
Suicide Bomber at Pizzaria

July 16, 2001 Binyamina 2 Killed, 11 Wounded Islamic Jihad Suicide
Bomber at Bus Stop

June 22, 2001 Dugit 2 Killed Hamas Suicide Bomber

June 1, 2001 Tel Aviv 21 Killed, 120 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber at
Disco

May 30, 2001 Netanya 8 Wounded Islamic Jihad Car Bomb outside School

May 27, 2001 Jerusalem 30 Wounded Popular Front for the Liberation of
Palestine & Islamic Jihad 2 Car Bombs

May 25, 2001 Hadera 65 Wounded Islamic Jihad Car Bomb

May 18, 2001 Netanya 5 Killed, 100+ Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber at
Mall

May 9, 2001 Tekoa 2 Killed Islamic Jihad Two 14 year-old Boys Beaten
and Stoned to Death, found dismembered in a Cave

April 23, 2001 Or Yehuda 8 Wounded Islamic Jihad Car Bomb in Outdoor
Market

April 22, 2001 Kfar Saba 1 Killed, 60 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber at
Bus Stop

March 28, 2001 near Kfar Saba 2 Killed, 4 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber
at School Bus Stop

March 27, 2001 Jerusalem 7 Wounded Islamic Jihad Car Bomb

March 27, 2001 Jerusalem 28 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber

March 26, 2001 Hevron 10-Month Old Infant Shalhevet Pass Killed
Sniper from Abu Sneineh

March 4, 2001 Netanya 3 Killed, 65+ Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber

February 14, 2001 Azor 8 Killed, 21 Wounded Hamas Bus Driver Plows
into Crowd

January 23, 2001 Tulkarem 2 Killed Hamas Gunmen Kidnap and Shoot 2
Israelis

January 1, 2001 Netanya 50+ Wounded Hamas Car Bomb

December 22, 2000 Jordan Valley 3+ Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber

November 22, 2000 Hadera 2 Killed, 55 Wounded Islamic Jihad Car Bomb
next to Bus

November 20, 2000 Kfar Darom 2 Killed, 9 Wounded School Bus Bombed

November 2, 2000 Jerusalem 2 Killed, 10 Wounded Islamic Jihad Car Bomb
in outdoor Market

October 26, 2000 Gaza 1 Wounded Islamic Jihad Youth Suicide Bomber on
Bike

November 7, 1999 Netanya 27 Wounded Hamas 3 Pipe Bombs

August 10, 1999 Nahshon Junction 6 Wounded Hamas Car Plows into Crowd
(Twice)

November 6, 1998 Jerusalem 2 Killed, 20 Wounded Islamic Jihad 2
Suicide Bombers

October 29, 1998 Gush Katif 1 Killed, 8 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber
Attacks School Bus

October 19, 1998 Be'er Sheva 59 Wounded Hamas Grenades Thrown at
Central Bus Station

October 11, 1998 Hevron 18 Wounded Hamas 2 Grenades Injure
Palestinians and Israelis

August 27, 1998 Tel-Aviv 14 Wounded Hamas Bomb In Dumpster

August 20, 1998 Tel Rumeiyda Rabbi Killed Hamas Fire Bomb & Stabbing
Link

No more US tax $$$ to the terrorist state of Israel.

We want to end the "special relationship" between our government and Israel. We want a divorce from Israel now!

Please note how Israeli crimes against humanity are too numerous to list on this post, but check out http://www.cactus48.com and http://www.electronicintifada.net for starters.

He's spreading zionist lies that he cannot back up.
For more info on the International Solidarity Movement, the non-violent peace group that Rachel Corrie was working with at the time of her murder by an Israeli soldier with a Caterpillar bulldozer paid for with US tax $, check out http://www.palsolidarity.org.

Her efforts and spirit are not forgotten. We love you Rachel!

Her efforts and spirit are not forgotten

ANOTHER FORGERY.

Whoever has been forging my name overnight has, as I mentioned in a different thread, become more sophisticated. Mere prose doesn't suffice any more. We have to be presented with photos, and the same one at that.

Rachel Corrie was a brave and courageous human being who wanted to make a difference in the never-ending suffering of the Palestinian people at the hands of Israel.

Because of this she was murdered in cold blood by an Israeli bulldozer operator whose dastardly deed Israel covered up as "an accident". And if you believe that, you are foolish enough to believe that the sky is falling as we speak.

To mourn is not enough.

Rachel Corrie was a brave and courageous human being who wanted to make a difference in the never-ending suffering of the Palestinian people at the hands of Israel.

so she supported the killing of countless civilians for the sake of her political cause. How many children where put to death so Rachel could feed her ego?
-the REAL Angie

Here we go again, folks.

I HAVE ANOTHER FORGER!!! TWO IN ONE THREAD!!! WHO CAN BELIEVE IT??

Some low life coming on the Board and calling him/herself "the Real Angie". What's your problem? Not bright enough to post under your own name? Don't have a name, perhaps? Can't remember what it is?

>>> "So she supported the killing of countless civilians for the sake of her political cause. How many children were put to death so Rachel could feed her ego"?

Actually she supported the rights of the Palestinians to live in their homes, not have them reduced to rubble about their heads. She supported the cause of justice and dignity for the Palestinian peoples.

If you are curious, FORGER, about the number "of children put to death so Rachel could feed her ego", I would suggest none. I would further suggest that your concept is gross.

If you want to know how many children killed in the Occupied Territories from September 2000 to September 2003, the number is 470. I do not have the stats for the month of October and thus far into November.

See:

http://www.dci-pal.org/statistics/indstats/sept2003.html

In the future if you have something to say, kindly use your own bloody name. I am sick to death of you and your miserable ilk.

Check this one out. It's Zionist black propaganda at it's finest, a real work of art. A *lot* of hours went into producing this.

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/11/1659551.php

Angie
I think this is all you seeking attention!

As I just finished telling "Kenny" in another thread, I don't want or need attention, and, again, I'll ask from whom and why?

Or are you "Kenny"?

If you ever have this sort of thing happen to you, you would not be very happy to have someone come on the Board and accuse you of creating your own forgeries. I can well assure you I am not only unhappy, but I am furious.

You should be damn well ashamed of yourself. If you want to post something here, why don't you deal with the topic at hand? I am NOT the damn topic of this thread.

Go sit on it, for God's sakes.

all to convenient if you ask me, you seem to have a speech written before your imposter strikes!
coincidence??
NO...more like " BAD ACTING"

Your wild accusations are laughable.

No, I don't have a pre-forgery speech. Each forgery is different. However, there are times when I check the Comments page and see my name there, and I am well aware that I had not submitted anything. And if the post isn't accessible within a period of time, I will send a comment to the Board indicating that I've noted same there and disclaiming authorship.

There's no mystery here as far as I'm concerned. The only mystery is why someone (or more than one) feels it necessary to waste my time and energy.

My exchanges with you are, as of now, concluded. You are not adding any helpful advice to the forgery problem. You have said nothing of note, only posted asinine accusations.

Again, let me state succinctly that I am not the topic of discussion here nor am I my own forger.

Sometimes it takes as long as ten minutes for a post to work its way through the process here. It's a limitation of our current software configuration that is far out weighed by the advantages that this configuration incurs. We apologize for the inconvenience. Thank you for your patience.

I was not being critical, God forbid, nor was any criticism implied. I applaud the amount of time and energy you (plural) devote to making this site the success that it is, and I appreciate being a guest here.

I was attempting to explain to the accusatory poster above that there are occasions when I see my name forged in the Comments page, and I take it upon myself to deny same before said forgery is published. In the future I'll wait and see what is being said.

One could say it was a "pre-emptive" measure. So, no, thank YOU.

Unlike you and your friends, whose only aim in life obviously is to come on this Board and make accusatory and unproven allegations about myself and others, I have never considered myself a "victim", nor would I resort to same.

It is simply astonishing that you have the guts to blatantly state here:

"The tactics you employ here are the same as you use in defending the murder and destruction that hamas" (Ihe small "h" is yours) imposes on the world".

There would not be a Hamas were it not for Israel, who nutured Hamas as an alternative to the PLO and don't you ever forget it, sir/madam. Hamas did not attack any civilian population until 1994 when the mosque murderer, Baruch Goldstein, took it upon himself to open gunfire inside the Tomb of the Patriachs on 25 Feb '94, killing at least 29 Palestinian worshippers at prayer. Hamas carried out revenge in April of '94. (Look it up!)

And when you read how Brooklyn born settler, Goldstein, became a "hero", a "martyr", how a shrine was erected in his honour (to the civilized amongst us, I kid you not!), and how it became a pilgrimage (again I kid you not!) you have a damn nerve to come on this board and accuse me defending Hamas or anyone else. Your hypocricy is without parallel.

Not to mention it, but I will, the vast majority of US media at the time, instead of giving objective facts about the massacre, blamed the victims. It's a time worn tactic, but it doesn't work any more, certainly not with me.

You don't seem to appreciate (which is the usual mindset of you and your fellow attackers) that the IDF is killing far more civilians and so-called "militants" than Hamas ever did. But that's okay, isn't it? Fighting "terrorism" and all that. Some of us lhink of it as murder.

Unlike the cowards who creep on this Board and use my name for their own evil purposes, I am brave enough and secure enough to stand behind what I say here, and in so doing, attach my own name to anything I post .

That you and others like you could say the same.

.

From my vantage point, considering all I have learned about Israel and its people, I can say with certitude that the vast number of Israelis wouldn't be wasting their time on wrangling with people like you.
As far as Israel's siege mentality goes, you are among those who help perpetuate rather than alleviate it due to your constant Israel bashing.

Israel made a mistake nurturing the Hamas back then, but you should have been happy that Israel tried to find an alternative to the rejectionist PLO at the time. Instead, all you offer is criticism.

The first attack by Hamas *since the Oslo accord was signed* (bear that in mind) occurred on Sep 24 93. Yigal Vaknin was stabbed to death in an orchard near the trailer home where he lived near the village of Basra. A squad of the HAMAS' Iz a-Din al Kassam claimed responsibility for the attack. Did you lie on your own, or was your lie courtesy of your beloved Uri? Your credibility is slim to nill. It really sucks breing you, hah?

As for the murderer Goldstein (so what if he was Brooklyn born? Quite a few Jews in Israel are Brooklyn, or Queens, or Bronx, or Manhattan born) only the extreme factions and their followers among the Jewish residents have considered him as a hero and martyr and made his tomb a shrine and went on pilgrimages to it. And you move on, making it seem like these ugly phenomena excuse Hamas' terror pro the Goldstein massacre. You forgot that 2 wrongs don't make it right.

Your contention about the US media's handling of the Goldstein massacre is a blatant lie, and the way you disparaged this alleged travesty shows you for the twit that you are.

The IDF targets the terrorists and combatants, not the innocents. If you have a machine that can prevent collateral damage (i.e. innocent Palestinians getting killed on occasion), please present it. And what's with the "so-called "militants"? These are terrorists. When is your wee mind substitute going to grasp that the Hamas hasn't been very successful at murdering so many Israelis only because the IDF and other Israeli security apparatuses have prevented them from so doing? Well, that's easy to answer: never, 'cause you don't want to acknowledge the truth.

quote:
===========
so what if he was Brooklyn born? Quite a few Jews in Israel are Brooklyn, or Queens, or Bronx, or Manhattan born)
==========

But Palestinians born in PALESTINE aren't entitled to return to where they came from.

How does one define "Jewish" in order to determine if one is entitled to "return".

Could Palestinians "convert" to Judaism for the purpose of returning to where they were evicted from in the fist place for the crime of not being Jewish?

???????

As long as you keep spouting tripe and lying ("Palestinians were...evicted from in the first place for the crime of not being Jewish", for instance), I won't dignify your questions with answers.

As long as you keep spouting tripe and lying ("Palestinians were...evicted ... in the first place for the crime of not being Jewish", for instance), I won't dignify your questions with answers.

No Choice at Deir Yassin - 108k

Have I addressed you recently? Curious, indeed.

Israel's seige mentality is legendary. I am not the author of same. You can say with 'certitude" whatever your little heart desires. The fact remains. Isreal doesn't need me to "perpetuate" it's seige mentality. It does it quite expertly on its own. Stick that in your "vantage point", why don't you?

"Israel made a mistake" re Hamas? Hehehe. Doesn't that just take the cake! Is that what you're calling it? Well, I'll be!

I'm not exactly concerned about an attack on one settler, sir. I was thinking more in terms of bombings within Israel. However, provide a link to the incident, why don't you?

Meanwhile, note the following:.

http://www.la.utexas.edu/chenry/aip/archive/achat/97/0184.html

If this doesn't work, check out the Washington Post, 19 October 1997. There's a commentary entitled "How Israel Misjudges Hamas and its Terrorism".

As well you can check out:

http://www.mediamonitors.net/hanania46.html

If this doesn't work, see Ray Hanania's "How Sharon and the Likud Party nutured the Rise of Hamas and benefit from its Terrorism".

With respect to Baruch Goldstein, don't be absurd. I don't give a damn where he came from. I merely mentioned Brooklyn for additional info. God, you're really pathetic if this is a point of contention, and it must be or why raise it?

And I would suggest you cease coming on the Board and making asinine accusations that my comments with respect to the US media's handling of this massacre is a "blatant lie". You must stop using this time worn phrase. "Lying" and its derivatives are SO overused and so wearisome predictable.

Check out the following, why don't you, and tell us who is playing with the truth here.

http://www.fair.org/extra/9405/massacre.html

Certainly there is no question as to who I believe re same.

I am not getting into another of your so-called debates re the all holy IDF. I haven't the time or the inclination. It's all been said before. The idea that if you repeat it often enough, it will become true doesn't jive with me at all. With 470 children killed from September of 2000 to September of 2003, plus thousands of civilians, I'd say "innocent Palestinians getting killed on occasion" is definitely playing with the truth.

The rest of your babbling is not worth responding to.

However, I will say that given a choice between what you purport to be the truth and Uri Avnery's definition of same, I know who I would choose. Yelling about Uri because I happen to admire him is totally childish, childish but expected.

That you could possess such a brave and courageous heart!

I won't sit here and see you lying through your bloody wee teeth, misleading unsuspecting readers and do nothing about it. Your attempt to excuse away your lie about the Hamas' first attacks on Jews is pathetic and laughable, really hilarious. Oh, you're "not exactly concerned about an attack on one settler, sir."; ah, you were "thinking more in terms of bombings within Israel."?? Poor little idiot baby, what a shame...
So...I should provide a link for a lying idiot like you who is diligent enough to search and find things on the web whenever you desire, huh? Fuggedabout it. Let me just say there were a few more murders by Hamas before Goldstein's massacre.

Yeah, Israel's siege mentality is legendary *for good reasons*.
As for you - you always run away from your responsibility for *anything bad* re the Arab-Israeli conflict/s you may be perpetuating or adding fuel to. It's this attitude (running away from personal responsibility) of yours practiced by so many people worldwide that has made the planet such a mess. You overlook the fact every phenomenon starts with one person and that every participant contributes his/her share. Shove that into your mind.

What's so f***ing funny about Israel's mistake re Hamas in the '70s, you evil cynical asshole? You at least should have acknowledged that Israel tried to find an alternative to the PLO for the sake of peace making. I fail to find this too difficult to expect.

You did lie blatantly about the US media's handling of Goldstein's massacre. The mere fact that you even dared to say such a thing reveals your wickedness and idiocy. Yeah, phrases of "lie" have long become overused where you are concerned. But alas, such is life.

You don't have to worry - there's no danger I'll start debating the IDF moral codes with you at length. This has proven to be a huge waste of time, for you are a wicked truth denier. I've noticed your wicked "pearls of wisdom" such as "holy IDF" or "murderous IDF" or "IDF soldiers on a mission to slaughter Palestinian children (the last two are definitely bullshit). But just know that you won't get me to believe your lies, no matter how often or subtly you repeat them. You don't give a shit about the children the Palestinian terror groups have slaughtered, what else is new?
Oh, I firmly stand by my statement about collateral damage. Your reasoning doesn't convince me the least bit on this. The rest of your babbling is not worth responding to.

I know you *always* incline to believe your idol Uri, whether he lies or not. Nothing else should be expected from you by a regular here. What's really childish is your blind faith in anything and everything your Uri god says.

Why was Brooklyn-born Baruch entitled to "return" to where he had never actually been, but Palestinians who were born in Palestine are not?

Why are zionists rendered incapable of explaining that?

This is just like trying to get a zionist to discuss the zionism specific **content** of U.S. President Woodrow Wilson's 1919 King-Crane Commission report....

- sorry!

You seem to figure some readers haven't read gehrig's reply to you about the issue of "return" from some days ago. You're a lousy liar.

I did read gehrig's non-response. S/he said - and I paraphrase due to laziness - 'I'm not prepared to fucking discuss it with you.'

and I'm not surprised

But you--my personal troll (welcome back!)--still haven't found the time for the few keystrokes required to answer my simple question. So I ask it again: do you like it?

Gehrig told you that the Palestinians rejected the UN's 1947 partition plan for Palestine that offered the local Arabs a state in Palestine alongside a Jewish one, and since the Arabs rejected the offer and began warring against the Jews, then those of the 1948 refugees who are still alive don't deserve to return.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it, you lying troll.

Having said all that, I'm sure you'll keep raising your question as you troll along.

what gehrig actually said:
======================
I have no intention of trying to explain the intricacies of the problem of Jewish identity
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,10551,770315,00.html
-- a UNIQUELY difficult task, because of the UNIQUE history of the Jewish people -- with someone who has made no attempt to hide the fact that all he wants to do is spit bile at the very _concept_ of Jewish identity.
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/11/1657938_comment.php#1658659
======================

hence:

a) Why were Brooklyn-born Baruch Goldstein and born again Jew, Ben Haim from Peru entitled to "return" to where they had never been?
&
b) Why were Palestinians who were born in Palestine, and who were forced to flee in the wake of Deir Yassin* for the crime of NOT BEING JEWISH not entitled to return?
&
c) do you like reggae?

* (see above: "No Choice at Deir Yassin" - Ezra Yahkin, Stern Gang)

You delude yourself all the users here are delusional idiots like yourself, too lazy and/or incapable of scrolling down to gehrig's message from Monday November 10, 2003 at 11:03 AM and reading what he said exactly...that was real good!
Hahaha, you've just debunked your newest lie...

Keep those laughs comin', dear buffoon.

What gehrig actually said at 11.03AM:

First, I have no intention of trying to explain the intricacies of the problem of Jewish identity -- a uniquely difficult task, because of the unique history of the Jewish people -- with someone who has made no attempt to hide the fact that all he wants to do is spit bile at the very _concept_ of Jewish identity.

Secondly, the Palestinians would have had a right to return to a Palestinian state for more than half a century if they hadn't refused to live side by side with Israel, and continually reaffirmed that decision in the decades since. The paradox is that the concept of Palestinian identity is actually on far more uncertain ground historically than that of Jewish identity.[!]

You keep changing what gehrig actually said. I called on you to keep the laughs coming and knew you'd deliver.

of course, any reader can compare the two identical versions of the gehrig's own words by simply checking the original.
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/11/1657938_comment.php#1658659
For what reason are you lying, antiCFB, my very own personal troll?
Do you like reggae?

>since the Arabs rejected the offer and began warring against the Jews, then those of the 1948 refugees who are still alive don't deserve to return.


"The" Arabs did not begin warring against "the" Jews. Some Arabs began warring against some Jews. This does not justify what Israel, or even certain Arab governments, have done to the refugees. By definition, the refugees are ones who did *not* make war on Israelis. Instead, they fled for their lives.

making war on the local Jews. Don't pretend you're an idiot. Your nitpicking is really foolish and reveals much more about you than it does about myself.

Israel is not at fault for the plight of the 1948 refugees and she hasn't done them harm following the 1948 war. Conversely, the Arab states - and even Arafat - are to blame, because they have prevented them from moving on with their lives in a decent manner. No amount of Israel bashing will change these facts.
I'm glad to see you inadvertently admitted some Arab governments have wronged the Palestinian refugees.

Remember, Israel isn't racist for preventing the 1948 refugees return, nor is it punishing them collectively. Israel is acting justly, because the "right of return" is a pretext by the Palestinians for kicking out all the Jews, and many of these refugees migrated to neighboring Arab lands prior to the war's outbreak, without the duress inherent in fleeing.
What's racist indeed is Palestinian terrorism; it doesn't even distinguish between Zionist and non-Zionist Jews.

Just listen to this, folks.

"Isreal is not at fault for the plight of the 1948 refugees, and she hasn't done them harm following the 1948 war".

What the hell is this? What planet are you from, sir?

Israel hasn't stopped "harming" Palestinians for the past 50 plus years. Remember this? Massacres
numbering 56; home demolitions here, there, and everywhere, with or without human beings inside; theft of land; destruction of orchards and farms; re-routing of water; assassinations; imprisonment without trial; the 106 dead refugees at Qana; bombings; missile strikes; destruction of entire villages on which have been built Israeli towns; ethnic cleansing; torture; road blocks; check points; school closures.

I'm sure someone out there will add anything I've forgotten, being in such a state of disbelief as I am.

So who are those people not being "harmed" by Israel since the war of 1948? You mean, they're not "refugees"?

LOL!...
Your definition of lying is topsy-turvy indeed, even by Indybay's standards. You're accusing me of lying because you have nothing left to say.
"Two identical versions blah blah"...guess paranoia-schizophrenia is a benign condition in comparison to the malady you suffer from, dear buffoon...
I bet you also believe you've saved faced even though you haven't manged to...
Thanks again!

by objective standards you're a moron.
I was speaking of the 1948 REFUGEES. The 1948 REFUGEES live in countries and territories other than Israel and the disputed territories. Their offspring ARE NOT the 1948 REFUGEES; the descendents are refugees only because many Arab states keep them MADE THEM like that ON PURPOSE as a political weapon against Israel.

Let me correct my previous statement abit. I did err a bit. I do submit that Israel used to bomb (during the 1970s and 1980s, notably during '82) Palestinian terrorists in refugee camps in Lebanon and unpurposely killed and injured a certain number of innocent *1948 refugees* - the sort of thing known as collateral damage.
All your other accusations - some have merit, others don't - are off topic since they pertain to the Palestinians living in the disputed territories since June 1967 or subsequent to the 1948 war.

Continue being in a state of disbelief as you please. But don't you try to change the subject here. The topic is the *1948 REFUGEES*. And, only a person who was alive at the time of the war that brought about his refugee status can be considered a real refugee as a result of the war.

Go back to school.

and how soon we forget of how many onprovoked attacks have lead to these actions(but angie won't talk about that) or about (Palestine targeting civilians)

October 4, 2003 Haifa 19 killed, 60 wounded Islamic Jihad Suicide
bombing in restaurant owned by Jews and Arabs
August 19, 2003 Jerusalem 22 killed, 135 wounded Hamas Suicide bombing
on a bus.

January 5, 2003 Tel Aviv 23 killed, 108 injured Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Two suicide bombers in an immigrant neighborhood

June 5, 2002 Megiddo 17 killed, 38 injured Islamic Jihad Car bomb
next to bus

May 27, 2002 Petah Tikvah 2 killed, 37 injured Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Suicide bomb in shopping mall

May 22, 2002 Rishon Lezion 2 killed, 40 wounded Suicide bomb on
pedestrian mall

May 19, 2002 Netanya 3 killed, 59 injured Hamas and the PFLP Suicide
bomb in market

May 7, 2002 Rishon Lezion 16 killed, 55 injured Hamas Suicide bomb
in pool hall

Apr 12, 2002 Jerusalem 6 killed, 104 injured Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Suicide bomb in Mahane Yehuda market

Apr 10, 2002 Kibbutz Yagur 8 killed, 22 injured Hamas Suicide
bombing on bus

March 31, 2002 Haifa 14 Killed, 40 Wounded Hamas Suicide bombing at
restaurant

March 29, 2002 Jerusalem 2 killed, 28 Wounded Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Suicide bombing at supermarket in Kiryat Yovel

March 27, 2002 Netanya 22 killed, 140 Wounded Hamas Suicide bombing
at Passover seder at Park Hotel

March 21, 2002 Jerusalem 3 killed, 86 Wounded Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Suicide bombing downtown

March 20, 2002 Afula 7 killed, 30 wounded Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Suicide bombing on bus

March 14, 2002 Karni-Netzarim road 3 Killed, 2 Wounded Fatah al-Aksa
Martyrs Brigade Remote Control Mine

March 12, 2002 near Kibbutz Matzuva 6 Killed, 7 Wounded Fatah al-Aksa
Martyrs Brigade Gunmen Ambush Vehicles

March 12, 2002 Kiryat Sefer checkpoint 1 Killed, 1 Wounded Shooting
Attack

March 11, 2002 Ashdod 1 Wounded Gunman Opens Fire at Bar Mitzvah

March 10, 2002 Netzarim 1 Killed Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade
Shooting Attack

March 9, 2002 Jerusalem 11 Killed, 54 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber at
Cafe

March 9, 2002 Netanya 2 Killed, 50 Wounded Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade 2 Gunmen Open Fire on a Promenade

March 7, 2002 Atzmona 5 Killed, 23 Wounded Terrorist Opens Fire and
Throws Grenades

March 7, 2002 Ariel 6+ Wounded Suicide Bomber in Hotel Lobby

March 5, 2002 Sderot 1 Baby Wounded Kassam Rocket

March 5, 2002 Afula 1 Killed, 10 Wounded Suicide Bomber on Bus

March 5, 2002 Tel Aviv 3 Killed, 35+ Wounded Gunman Opens Fire at
Restaurants

March 5, 2002 outside Bethlehem 1 Killed, 1 Wounded Gunman Ambushes
Vehicle

March 2, 2002 Jerusalem 10 Killed, 50+ Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Suicide Bomber outside Synagogue

February 27, 2002 West Bank 3 Wounded Fatah Female Suicide Bomber

February 25, 2002 Jerusalem 1 Killed, 8 Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Gunman Opens Fire at a Bus Stop

February 25, 2002 Gush Etzion 1 Killed, 1 Pregnant Woman Wounded Fatah
Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade Gunmen Open Fire on a Car

February 22, 2002 Efrat 1 Wounded Suicide Bomber in Supermarket

February 22, 2002 North of Jerusalem 1 Killed Fatah Drive-by Shooting

February 19, 2002 En Arik 6 Killed, 1 Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Gunmen Open Fire at Soldiers

February 18, 2002 Gush Katif 3 Killed, 4 Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa
Martyrs Brigade Gunfire and Bombs at Cars

February 18, 2002 near Jerusalem 1 Killed, 1 Injured Fatah Al-Aksa
Martyrs Brigade Car Bomb

February 16, 2002 Karnei Shomron 2 Killed, 27 Wounded Popular Front
for the Liberation of Palestine Suicide Bomber at Crowded Shopping
Mall

February 14, 2002 Gaza 3 Killed, 4 Wounded Mine Placed Under Tank

February 10, 2002 Be'er Sheva 2 Killed, 4 Wounded Hamas Drive-by
Shooting

February 8, 2002 Jerusalem 1 Killed 4 Teenagers with Knives

February 6, 2002 Moshav Hamra 2 Killed, 5 Wounded Hamas Gunmen
Infiltrates Moshav

January 30, 2002 Taiba 2 Wounded Fatah Suicide Bomber

January 27, 2002 Jerusalem 1 Killed, 150+ Wounded Fatah Female Suicide
Bomber

January 25, 2002 Tel Aviv 24 Wounded Islamic Jihad Suicide Bomber at
Crowded Pedestrian Shopping Mall

January 22, 2002 Jerusalem 2 Killed, 40 Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Guman Opens Fire on Crowd

January 17, 2002 Hadera 6 Killed, 35 Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Gunman Opens Fire at Bat Mitzvah Celebration

January 15, 2002 Beit Jala 1 Killed Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade
American Kidnapped and Murdered

January 9, 2002 Kerem Shalom 4 Killed, 2 Wounded Hamas Gunfire and
Expolsives

December 12, 2001 Emmanuel 10 Killed, 30 Wounded Fatah & Hamas Bomb
and Gunfire Attack on Bus

December 9, 2001 Haifa 31 Wounded Suicide Bomber

December 2, 2001 Haifa 15 Killed, 46 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber on
Bus

December 1, 2001 Jerusalem 10 Killed, 188+ Wounded Hamas 2 Suicide
Bombers and a Car Bomb in a Pedestrian Mall

November 29, 2001 near Hadera 3 Killed, 9 Wounded Islamic Jihad &
Fatah Suicide Bomber on Bus

November, 27, 2001 Afula 2 Killed, Dozens Wounded Islamic Jihad &
Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade 2 Gunmen Opened Fire on Crowd near the
Central Bus Station

November, 27, 2001 Gush Katif 1 Killed, 3 Wounded Hamas Grenades and
Gunfire

November 26, 2001 Erez Checkpoint 2 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber

November 24, 2001 Kfar Darom 1 Killed Hamas Morter Shell Landed on a
Soccer Field

November 4, 2001 Jerusalem 2 Killed, 50+ Wounded Islamic Jihad Gunman

October 28, 2001 Hadera 4 Killed, 40 Wounded Gunman

October 28, 2001 near Kibbutz Metzer 1 Killed Tanzim Drive-By
Shooting

October 17, 2001 Jerusalem Israeli Tourism Minister Rehavam Ze'evi
Assasinated Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine Gunmen in
Hotel

October 7, 2001 Beit She'an Valley 1 Killed Suicide Bomber

October 4, 2001 Afula 3 Killed, 16 Wounded Gunman Opens Fire on
Crowd

October 1, 2001 Jerusalem Several Wounded Car Bomb

September 9, 2001 Nahariya 3 Killed, 90 Wounded Hamas 1st
Israeli-Arab Suicide Bomber, at Train Station

September 9, 2001 West Bank 2 Killed, 4 Wounded Gunmen

September 4, 2001 Jerusalem 20 Wounded Suicide Bomber disguised as
Orthodox Jew

September 3, 2001 Jerusalem 3 Wounded Series of Car Bombs

August 12, 2001 Kiryat Motzkin 21 Wounded Islamic Jihad Suicide Bomber
at Cafe

August 9, 2001 Jerusalem 15 Killed, 130+ Wounded Islamic Jihad & Hamas
Suicide Bomber at Pizzaria

July 16, 2001 Binyamina 2 Killed, 11 Wounded Islamic Jihad Suicide
Bomber at Bus Stop

June 22, 2001 Dugit 2 Killed Hamas Suicide Bomber

June 1, 2001 Tel Aviv 21 Killed, 120 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber at
Disco

May 30, 2001 Netanya 8 Wounded Islamic Jihad Car Bomb outside School

May 27, 2001 Jerusalem 30 Wounded Popular Front for the Liberation of
Palestine & Islamic Jihad 2 Car Bombs

May 25, 2001 Hadera 65 Wounded Islamic Jihad Car Bomb

May 18, 2001 Netanya 5 Killed, 100+ Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber at
Mall

May 9, 2001 Tekoa 2 Killed Islamic Jihad Two 14 year-old Boys Beaten
and Stoned to Death, found dismembered in a Cave

April 23, 2001 Or Yehuda 8 Wounded Islamic Jihad Car Bomb in Outdoor
Market

April 22, 2001 Kfar Saba 1 Killed, 60 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber at
Bus Stop

March 28, 2001 near Kfar Saba 2 Killed, 4 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber
at School Bus Stop

March 27, 2001 Jerusalem 7 Wounded Islamic Jihad Car Bomb

March 27, 2001 Jerusalem 28 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber

March 26, 2001 Hevron 10-Month Old Infant Shalhevet Pass Killed
Sniper from Abu Sneineh

March 4, 2001 Netanya 3 Killed, 65+ Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber

February 14, 2001 Azor 8 Killed, 21 Wounded Hamas Bus Driver Plows
into Crowd

January 23, 2001 Tulkarem 2 Killed Hamas Gunmen Kidnap and Shoot 2
Israelis

January 1, 2001 Netanya 50+ Wounded Hamas Car Bomb

December 22, 2000 Jordan Valley 3+ Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber

November 22, 2000 Hadera 2 Killed, 55 Wounded Islamic Jihad Car Bomb
next to Bus

November 20, 2000 Kfar Darom 2 Killed, 9 Wounded School Bus Bombed

November 2, 2000 Jerusalem 2 Killed, 10 Wounded Islamic Jihad Car Bomb
in outdoor Market

October 26, 2000 Gaza 1 Wounded Islamic Jihad Youth Suicide Bomber on
Bike

November 7, 1999 Netanya 27 Wounded Hamas 3 Pipe Bombs

August 10, 1999 Nahshon Junction 6 Wounded Hamas Car Plows into Crowd
(Twice)

November 6, 1998 Jerusalem 2 Killed, 20 Wounded Islamic Jihad 2
Suicide Bombers

October 29, 1998 Gush Katif 1 Killed, 8 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber
Attacks School Bus

October 19, 1998 Be'er Sheva 59 Wounded Hamas Grenades Thrown at
Central Bus Station

October 11, 1998 Hevron 18 Wounded Hamas 2 Grenades Injure
Palestinians and Israelis

August 27, 1998 Tel-Aviv 14 Wounded Hamas Bomb In Dumpster

August 20, 1998 Tel Rumeiyda Rabbi Killed Hamas Fire Bomb & Stabbing
Link

no angie will not talk about any of this!!

"Hugo"? Hmm.

"Unprovoked attacks"? Tell us more.

by objective standards you're a moron.
I was speaking of the 1948 REFUGEES. The 1948 REFUGEES live in countries and territories other than Israel and the disputed territories. Their offspring ARE NOT the 1948 REFUGEES; the descendents are refugees only because many Arab states MADE THEM like that ON PURPOSE as a political weapon against Israel.

Let me correct my previous statement a bit. I did err a bit. I do submit that Israel used to bomb (during the 1970s and 1980s, notably during '82) Palestinian terrorists in refugee camps in Lebanon and unpurposely killed and injured a certain number of innocent *1948 refugees* - the sort of thing known as collateral damage.
All your other accusations - some have merit, others don't - are off topic since they pertain to the Palestinians living in the disputed territories since June 1967 or subsequent to the 1948 war.

Continue being in a state of disbelief as you please. But don't you try to change the subject here. The topic is the *1948 REFUGEES*. And, only a person who was alive at the time of the war that brought about his refugee status can be considered a real refugee as a result of the war.

Go back to school.

DEPARTMENT OF STATE
WASHINGTON

August 16, 1948

TOP SECRET

MEMORANDUM FOR THE PRESIDENT

Subject: Proposed Representations to Provisional Government of Israel Regarding Maintenance of Peace in Palestine.

Information from a wide number of sources causes the Department increasing concern over the apparent tendency of the Provisional Government of Israel to assume a more aggressive attitude in Palestine.

Following the termination of the British mandate on May 15 and the establishment of a Jewish State, the Israeli authorities were quick to respond to United Nations efforts to stop the fighting in Palestine. After the termination of this four-week truce on July 9, hostilities were resumed and it soon became apparent that Israel had materially improved its military position during the period of the earlier truce. Nevertheless, both the Government of Israel and the Arab States agreed to accept the Security Council's order of July 15 for a cease-fire and truce of indefinite duration in Palestine. The demilitarization of Jerusalem was included in the Security Council's resolution and was accepted by the Government of Israel and the Arab States in principle. In recent months, however, a new and aggressive note has become manifest, and the readiness of Israel to maintain the truce has become subject to doubt.

The Department has noted evidence of hostility of Israelis in Palestine toward the military observers serving under Count Bernadotte; the inflammatory speeches of the Israeli Foreign Minister, Mr Shertok, with regards to alleged "rights" of Israel in Jerusalem; the military occupation by Israel of much of the Jerusalem area; and the refusal of the Israeli military governor in Jerusalem to cooperate with Count Bernadotte in discussion regarding the demilitarization of Jerusalem. The Department has likewise noted the increasing evidence of systematic violations of the United Nations truce by the forces of Israel, including forward movement of Israeli forces from agreed truce positions, continued sniping and firing against Arab positions; and conclusive evidence of the organized transport of arms shipments to Palestine from France, Italy, and Czechoslovakia. Furthermore, the Israeli Foreign Minister has officially proclaimed that Israel will not accept, pending negotiation of a final peace settlement, the return of the approximately 300,000 Arab inhabitants of that part of Palestine now comprising the Jewish State who fled from their houses and are now destitute in nearby Arab areas.

The Foreign Minister of Great Britain, in a conversation with our Ambassador on August 6, expressed grave concern over the situation in Palestine. He was fearful not only that the USSR would take advantage of of this situation to foment trouble in Iraq and Iran but also that within "the next few days" the Jews, on grounds of some Arab provocation, real or manufactured, would reopen their offensive with the objective of seizing more territory - probably Transjordan. Mr. Bevin thought that the Palestine situation was as serious as Berlin. "If the United States and United Kingdom go slack (in Palestine), we lose."

The Department, in light of these developments, feels that it would be wise to call in Mr. Eliahu Epstein, the Representative of the Provisional Government of Israel, and discuss frankly our concern with him. We would tell Mr. Epstein that, as he undoubtedly knows, that the United States is the best friend of Israel. We have recognized that State and desire to see it continue in existence and prosper as a peaceful member of the community of nations. We have now before us the question of de jure recognition of the Provisional Government of Israel, support for Israel's membership in the United Nations, and the application from Israel for a loan from the Export-Import Bank. We should like to see all these matters arranged in a manner satisfactory to both governments but we should find it exceedingly difficult, for example, to advocate a loan to Israel if that country is likely to resume hostilities. Similar difficulties would arise concerning membership in the United Nations.

As a friend of Israel we deem it of paramount importance that this new republic not place itself before the bar of world opinion and the United Nations in the role of an aggressor. We should like to tell Mr. Epstein for the information of his government that we shall be not less zealous in the Security Council to oppose aggression from the Israeli side as we were when the attack was launched by the Arab side.

From the wider political aspect and not for the information of Mr. Epstein, it is obvious that it would be most injurious to the interests of the United States if hostilities should be opened by Israel against Transjordan with the result that the United Kingdom would automatically honor its commitments to Transjordan under its existing treaty with that country. This would bring forth an outcry in the United States for the lifting of our arms embargo in favor of Israel, with the result that the two great Anglo-Saxon partners would be supplying and aiding two little states on the opposite sides of a serious war, from which only the Soviet Union could profit.

With your concurrence the Under Secretary of State proposes immediately to discuss these matters with Mr. Epstein.

---

Truman Library - Documents on the Recognition of Israel

---

What gehrig actually said at 11.03AM:

First, I have no intention of trying to explain the intricacies of the problem of Jewish identity -- a uniquely difficult task, because of the unique history of the Jewish people -- with someone who has made no attempt to hide the fact that all he wants to do is spit bile at the very _concept_ of Jewish identity.

Secondly, the Palestinians would have had a right to return to a Palestinian state for more than half a century if they hadn't refused to live side by side with Israel, and continually reaffirmed that decision in the decades since. The paradox is that the concept of Palestinian identity is actually on far more uncertain ground historically than that of Jewish identity.[!]

For more CFB opinions, go to the stormfront neo-nazi website, take every single thing said about "the jews" and change the word "jews" to "zionists" and PRESTO, you have everything that spews out of CFB's mouth.

thanks for another hostile strawman fallacy, antiCFB, my very own personal troll.

a) Why were Brooklyn-born Baruch Goldstein and born again Jew, Ben Haim from Peru entitled to "return" to where they had never been?
&
b) Why were Palestinians who were born in Palestine, and who were forced to flee in the wake of Deir Yassin* for the crime of NOT BEING JEWISH not entitled to return?
&
c) do you like reggae?

* (see above: "No Choice at Deir Yassin" - Ezra Yahkin, Stern Gang)

But your new enemy is not really that far off the mark, isn't he.

<<< "By objective standards you're a moron".

Hehehe!!! What? Not a liar? A racist? An anti-semite? Hell, wouldn't you know it! Just a measly moron. And, look, he's using "objective standards" at that!

I revisited 1948 following your astonishing comments above, sir, and from all accounts 1948 was a very bad year for Arabs. These people didn't always live in refugee camps nor were they refugees. Hell, not! On the contrary they had homes and farms, livelihoods, their own towns and villages, and then the Israeli reign of terror caused the destruction of village after village, carried out massacre after massacre, turning hundreds of thousands of residents into refugee after refugee after refugee. And this was 1948. Placing the blame on Arab nations and their real or imagined political agendas is not going to change reality a damn bit. And the reality is there wouldn't have been ANY refugees had Israel not terrorized, killed, destroyed entire villages and claimed said villages as their own. Talk about rewriting history!

And kindly remember that the territories are not the "disputed territories". That's another invention in recent years (Rumsfeld in August of 2002, for instance). However, I'm not too concerned with Rumsfeld. The UN and the International community refer to the territories as "occupied". Occupied doesn't quite cover it, really.

And it ist very convenient for you that there is "collateral damage". It's another word for murder, less offensive, yes, but still murder. .

If you were referring to Sabra and Shatila, let it be quite clear Sharon the Wicked stated there were 2000 Palestinian "terrorists" in the camps. Strange, is it not, that we never heard a word about them. Where were they? Were they amongst the almost 2000 whose bodies were scattered in unmitigated horror about the camps? Sending in the Phalange and assisting them carrry out this unspeakable atrocity then attempt to whitewash same is typical but hardly believable.

There were 106 refugees slaughtered as late as 1996 at a UN compound in Qana. One can be bloody certain that at least ONE of those dead was related to one of the banished in '48. THERE WERE NO "TERRORISTS" AT QANA.

An "accident" Peres declared, ignoring completely the presence (and photographed) of a drone. What astonished us at the time was that he didn't call it "self defence".

You accuse me of being "off topic" in a Rachel Corrie Banner thread?

And whilst I continue in a state of disbelief at the horrors inflected on humankind by humankind, you, no doubt, will continue in your state of denial.

It's your education deficit which is the obvious problem here, so I would suggest you follow your own suggestion. You go back to school preferably one that doesn't have brainiwashing on its curriculum.

Hey antCFB and anti CFB!

a) Why were Brooklyn-born Baruch Goldstein and born again Jew, Ben Haim from Peru entitled to "return" to where they had never been?
&
b) Why were Palestinians who were born in Palestine, and who were forced to flee in the wake of Deir Yassin* for the crime of NOT BEING JEWISH not entitled to return?
&
c) do either of my personal trolls enjoy reggae?

* (see above: "No Choice at Deir Yassin" - Ezra Yahkin, Stern Gang)

OK. Sarcasm aside, you've proven yourself not only a moron but also a liar and an extremely biased, superficial and one-sided individual.

You expect me to feel sorry for "the Arabs" (your term) vis-a-vis 1948? After they rejected the 1947 UN partition plan that offered the local Arabs a Palestinian state for the taking, and also stepped up their hostilities against "the (local) Jews", culminating in the invasion of the nascent Jewish state? No way. Am I saying "the Jews" didn't make mistakes? No. Deir Yassin happened, and a few dozens or hundreds of Arabs were forced out of their homes in the cities of Ramla and Lod and became refugees.

But most of the rest of the Arab refugees left their homes before the war broke out, while the remainder fled because of the war. It was not your imaginary "Israeli reign of terror" that made most of these people refugees. There was no series of massacres and destruction. But you'd obviously stick with your fabricated narrative and not let yourself get confused with facts.
Your interpretation of reality (talking about what would have occurred if a real or imaginary cause wouldn't effect it) exposes you once again as a moron. Apropos, there wouldn't have been a refugee problem in 1948 had the governments of the neighboring Arab countries not demanded and enticed the Arabs in Palestine to migrate to nearby countries by promises them to return once they killed off or drove all the local Jews out, and utterly crushed the nascent Israel. Yeah, you have been dabbling with revisionism for a long time now.

As for nomenclature, the term "disputed territories" is far from being a recent invention, and is much preferable to "occupied territories" regardless of how much you resent it. It goes back to June 11 1967 at least. Incidentally, I too am not so preoccupied with Rumsfeld's musings, but am glad he subscribes to the view the territories in question are disputed rather than occupied. I'm also not too concerned with what the UN and the international community think on this point, because hey are wrong. And they are wrong about many things much more often than not, much to your chagrin.

Collateral damage as far as human losses incurred by military acts can never imply murder. It is k-i-l-l-i-n-g. Perhaps it's time you learn the difference between killing and murder. It's either the moron in you who fails to notice the difference or the biased part of you in action that is trying to force the term in question to become an euphemism for murder when that's obviously not the case.

I fail to see how you could have deduced I attempted to whitewash the Sabra & Shatila affair. But then again you are a moron, unfortunately.

Can you present **proof** for you "bloody certainty" there was at least one 1948 refugee among the victims of Qana Accident? Please do, otherwise your claim is untrustworthy. And make no mistake, I vehemently object to the notion it was a deliberate massacre.
When Israeli soldiers targeted the launch points of Katyusha rockets, mistakes were made and the UNIFIL base was unfortunately hit. The people inside lost, but because of the tremendous world outcry blaming Israel, Hezbollah won. Hezbollah guerrillas fired two Katyusha rockets and eight mortars at Israel from an area 300 yards away from the Fijian compound 15 minutes before Israeli gunners opened fire, U.N. spokeswoman Sylvana Foa said, quoting the commander of the U.N. peacekeeping mission in Lebanon. The U.N. report acknowledges that Hezbollah took cover at the bases of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL). Hezbollah used those civilians as cover in a very cynical and despicable way. The fact there was a drone proves nothing. Are you that mentally feeble?

As for the topics: I was discussing the 1948 refugees' "right of return" with "anti-racist" and then you barged in with your reservations about same, while trying to put more recent events into a picture they don't belong in - the alleged right of return of the *1948 refugees*. If you fail to understand you brought off topic items into that discussion then it's yet another confirmation of your retardation.

Carry on with your revisionism and denial of historical realities all you wish. You're obviously a narrow minded, indoctrinated person immersed in your rewritten history narratives.

Hey anti CFB!

a) Why were Brooklyn-born Baruch Goldstein and born again Jew, Ben Haim from Peru entitled to a BIRTHRIGHT to "RETURN" to WHERE THEY HAD NEVER BEEN?
&
b) Why were Palestinians who were BORN in Palestine, and who were FORCED TO FLEE in the wake of Deir Yassin* for the crime of NOT BEING JEWISH not entitled to return?
&
c) do you enjoy reggae?

* (see above: "No Choice at Deir Yassin" - Ezra Yahkin, Stern Gang)

Whatever is worth replying to among your questions has been answered already.
Let me just say regarding the wake of Deir Yassin: after the fighting began, many Arab villagers who heard what had happened in Deir Yassin along with rumors that inflated what had actually occurred there "panicked and fled ignominiously before they were threatened by the progress of the war." So wrote the British general Sir John Glubb, who commanded the Transjordanian army.

a) Why were Brooklyn-born Baruch Goldstein and born again Jew, Ben Haim from Peru entitled to a BIRTHRIGHT to "RETURN" to WHERE THEY HAD NEVER BEEN?

anti CFB?

A quick response to your LONG spiel which I have had only a moment to glance through.

Sarcasm? It is obvious you wouldn't recognize humour when it leaps up at you from the computer screen. So you enlarge and expound and accuse all in one wee sentence.

The hilarious aspect of this post, sir, is the title. The only "revisionists" in this day and age are you and your ilk.

When I get a chance later on after work I will peruse your post more carefully.

You will agree, won't you, that most of us do work, and as entertaining as this Board can be, hanging around here doesn't pay the bills. Good day to you.

I certainly have and know homor, only I don't write engage in these stupid banters you initiate with your imaginery pal, "JUJ".

You should be awarded an honorate PHD for your peddling of revisionist history on the net.

What your work has got to do with the themes on this thread is beyond me. Anyway, come to think of it, I really have trouble believing your job enables you to afford your extensive www history revisionism lifestyle. I would speculate you recieve funding from mysterious groups to foot some of your bills.

"Entertaining"? For you? Posting to this board seems to be your only pastime besides work, eating and sleep, and ALL the entertainment you get in life!

Get out of your attack mode long enough to read what people write, why don't you?

Oh, so you don't like "these stupid banters you initiate with your imaginary pal, JUJ".

Aaaah, poor chap! Has someone stuck a revolver at your head and demanded that you solemnly read same under threat of death?

"Imaginary pal"? How insulting can you be! What would you say if I were to suggest that you, and all the other "anti" this and that (jerk, idiot, bullshit) were just imaginary friends of, say, Mr. Gehrig? Aha!

NOTE TO JUJ: Hey, pal! Tell your uncle about this one!!

Explain that wicked accusation that I'm receiving funding from "some mysteriaous groups to foot some of your bills". I don't need anyone, mysterious or otherwise, to pay my bills. I'm an employed individual, my hours are flexible, and I would like to win the lotto someday, but, hey, most would.

But perhaps you know something about who's paying my forger, hmm?

If you have a problem with my earlier post and the Israeli reign of terror I mentioned, hey, don't take my word for it. Read up on Israeli massacres; for instance, how about on December 13, 1947 at Yediha when Jewish terrorists, masquadering as British soldiers, opened machine gun fire on a local cafe, planted bombs beside Arab houses, and threw grenades at residents. Six civilians were killed, and but for the timely arrival of the real British patrol who knows what the number would have been.

Then there was the Khisas masscre on 18 December 1947, 10 Arabs killed by machine gun fire and grenades.

19 December 1947, Qazaza had its own massacre, five children killed when the home of the village Mukhtar was blown up.

January 1, 1948, the Al-sheikh massacre, 40 inhabitants, mostly women and children, killed.

Deir Yassin, 9 April 1948, 254 inhabitants butchered (about the only appropriate word). I suggest you read "April is the Cruelist Month" by Israel Shamir.

There's MANY more, but, hey, do your own research.

And you have the nerve to accuse me of rewriting history? Please!!!

Why should I prove that at least one of the 106 refugees was a descendant of 1948? You prove they weren't. You're the one who's claiming no 1948 refugees were harmed by Israel.

Sarcasm? It is obvious you wouldn't recognize humor when it leaps up at you from the computer screen.

we recognize it, when we see it in this case it is conspicuously absent!

as are relevant supporting facts for your allegations

As far as your claims about multiple Israeli massacres are concerned: pro-Arab sources cite examples of alleged Israeli massacres and other atrocities during the 1948 War of Independence. Some Israeli revisionist historians support the atrocity claims as part of their political agenda, but mainstream historians do not think the claims are credible. The crux of the issue is whether the Jewish forces acted in a manner which goes beyond the normal course of warfare or if, on the contrary, any casualties were either opposing Arab armed forces or civilians who were accidently killed due to battle. Arab casualties that did occur were either Arab armed forces in battle, or civilians caught in battle areas. Since Arabs often attacked from civilian areas, most of these casualties were the result of such Arab attacks. Certainly claims of massacres and atrocities should not go without investigation. The problem is that even when the claim is shown to be unfounded, the legend persists. It is convenient for the enemies of Israel to portray her armed forces as ruthless savages, but that propagandistic position cannot be supported by any facts.
For example, Tantura. A Haifa University revisionist historian, Theodor Katz, claimed in his M.A. thesis (released January 2000) that an IDF unit had massacred over 200 Arab residents of the village of Tantura in the 1948 War of Independence. He was brought to court in 2001 by surviving officers and men of the unit who presented contrary evidence including review of Katz's tape recordings showing how he had manipulated the testimony of survivors. Katz admitted finally that he had selectively used reports from Arab sources, taking only those that supported his thesis. The lawsuit was dropped after Katz signed a renunciation of his own work and Haifa University pulled the thesis from library shelves. [It was revealed in September 2002 that former Palestinian Authority minister Feisal Husseini paid $8,000 for the legal defense of Teddy Katz.] The University conducted its own review of the evidence. After six months of work, the committee had managed to review only a little more than one-fourth of Katz's tapes, mostly in Arabic, which bore direct relation to the question of whether any massacre took place. Yet even in that limited selection, 14 major discrepancies - in which the tapes didn't accord with the written text - came to light.
No pro-Palestinian Arab source had ever pointed to a massacre at Tantura before Katz's thesis appeared in 2000. The thesis has been completely debunked. Nonetheless, there are now hundreds of web sites that cite the "Tantura massacre" as historical fact. And while Arab sources rushed into print to trumpet the news of Katz's thesis, none has mentioned the retraction save a few who cite it as an example of a massive coverup.

Concerning the Qana tragedy, I'll say it for the last time: either prove your "bloody certainty" or shut the hell up on this topic. Stop turning every discussion topic into a childish match of "well *you* prove it". You were the one who raised this claim without evidence to support it, so the onus is on you to prove it. End of that story.

from President Woodrow Wilson's 1919 King-Crane Commission Report:

ZIONISM

E. We recommend, in the fifth place, serious modification of the extreme Zionist program for Palestine of unlimited immigration of Jews, looking finally to making Palestine distinctly a Jewish State.

(1) The Commissioners began their study of Zionism with minds predisposed in its favor, but the actual facts in Palestine, coupled with the force of the general principles proclaimed by the Allies and accepted by the Syrians have driven them to the recommendation here made.

(2) The commission was abundantly supplied with literature on the Zionist program by the Zionist Commission to Palestine; heard in conferences much concerning the Zionist colonies and their claims; and personally saw something of what had been accomplished. They found much to approve in the aspirations and plans of the Zionists, and had warm appreciation for the devotion of many of the colonists and for their success, by modern methods, in overcoming natural obstacles.

(3) The Commission recognized also that definite encouragement had been given to the Zionists by the Allies in Mr. Balfour's often quoted statement in its approval by other representatives of the Allies. If, however, the strict terms of the Balfour Statement are adhered to -favoring "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people," "it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights existing in non-Jewish communities in Palestine"-it can hardly be doubted that the extreme Zionist Program must be greatly modified.

For "a national home for the Jewish people" is not equivalent to making Palestine into a Jewish State; nor can the erection of such a Jewish State be accomplished without the gravest trespass upon the "civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine." The fact came out repeatedly in the Commission's conference with Jewish representatives, that the Zionists looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the present non-Jewish inhabitants of Palestine, by various forms of purchase.

In his address of July 4, 1918, President Wilson laid down the following principle as one of the four great "ends for which the associated peoples of the world were fighting"; "The settlement of every question, whether of territory, of sovereignty, of economic arrangement, or of political relationship upon the basis of the free acceptance of that settlement by the people immediately concerned and not upon the basis of the material interest or advantage of any other nation or people which may desire a different settlement for the sake of its own exterior influence or mastery." If that principle is to rule, and so the wishes of Palestine's population are to be decisive as to what is to be done with Palestine, then it is to be remembered that the non-Jewish population of Palestine-nearly nine tenths of the whole-are emphatically against the entire Zionist program. The tables show that there was no one thing upon which the population of Palestine were more agreed than upon this. To subject a people so minded to unlimited Jewish immigration, and to steady financial and social pressure to surrenderthe land, would be a gross violation of the principle just quoted, and of the people's rights, though it kept within the forms of law.

It is to be noted also that the feeling against the Zionist program is not confined to Palestine, but shared very generally by the people throughout Syria as our conferences clearly showed. More than 72 per cent-1,350 in all-of all the petitions in the whole of Syria were directed against the Zionist program. Only two requests-those for a united Syria and for independence-had a larger support This genera] feeling was only voiced by the "General Syrian Congress," in the seventh, eighth and tenth resolutions of the statement. (Already quoted in the report.)

The Peace Conference should not shut its eyes to the fact that the anti-Zionist feeling in Palestine and Syria is intense and not lightly to be flouted. No British officer, consulted by the Commissioners, believed that the Zionist program could be carried out except by force of arms. The officers generally thought that a force of not less than 50,000 soldiers would be required even to initiate the program. That of itself is evidence of a strong sense of the injustice of the Zionist program, on the part of the non-Jewish populations of Palestine and Syria. Decisions, requiring armies to carry out, are sometimes necessary, but they are surely not gratuitously to be taken in the interests of a serious injustice. For the initial claim, often submitted by Zionist representatives, that they have a "right" to Palestine, based on an occupation of 2,000 years ago, can hardly be seriously considered.

There is a further consideration that cannot justly be ignored, if the world is to look forward to Palestine becoming a definitely Jewish state, however gradually that may take place. That consideration grows out of the fact that Palestine is "the Holy Land" for Jews, Christians, and Moslems alike. Millions of Christians and Moslems all over the world are quite as much concerned as the Jews with conditions in Palestine especially with those conditions which touch upon religious feeling and rights. The relations in these matters in Palestine are most delicate and difficult. With the best possible intentions, it may be doubted whether the Jews could possibly seem to either Christians or Moslems proper guardians of the holy places, or custodians of the Holy Land as a whole.

The reason is this: The places which are most sacred to Christians-those having to do with Jesus-and which are also sacred to Moslems, are not only not sacred to Jews, but abhorrent to them. It is simply impossible, under those circumstances, for Moslems and Christians to feel satisfied to have these places in Jewish hands, or under the custody of Jews. There are still other places about which Moslems must have the same feeling. In fact, from this point of view, the Moslems, just because the sacred places of all three religions are sacred to them have made very naturally much more satisfactory custodians of the holy places than the Jews could be. It must be believed that the precise meaning, in this respect, of the complete Jewish occupation of Palestine has not been fully sensed by those who urge the extreme Zionist program. For it would intensify, with a certainty like fate, the anti-Jewish feeling both in Palestine and in all other portions of the world which look to Palestine as "the Holy Land."

In view of all these considerations, and with a deep sense of sympathy for the Jewish cause, the Commissioners feel bound to recommend that only a greatly reduced Zionist program be attempted by the Peace Conference, and even that, only very gradually initiated. This would have to mean that Jewish immigration should be definitely limited, and that the project for making Palestine distinctly a Jewish commonwealth should be given up.

---

The Faithful are Allowed to Carry the Cornerstone to the Area of the Hulda Gates of the Temple Mount
The Israeli Supreme Court Decides on the Faithful Movement Petition

[...] I want to bring a word from G–d to the enemies of Israel and to all the nations in the world. Do not even try to prevent this godly event and process. The purification of the Temple Mount from the foreigners and enemies of Israel and their desecration of the holy site of G–d and the rebuilding of the temple cannot be prevented. This is a major historical, prophetic, end-time event which the G–d of Israel and the Universe will soon bring to completion in our lifetime. G–d anointed Israel to rebuild this house and to serve Him in this great house not only for the people of Israel but for all the nations as the prophet Isaiah stated - “... for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.” (Isaiah56:7)

Temple Mount Faithful

 

Lots of Jews!	But only a few Arabs!
MYTH “The Jews have no claim to the land they call Israel.” FACT: "By the early 19th century-years before the birth of the modern Zionist movement, more than 10,000 Jews lived throughout what is today Israel. The 78 years of nation-building, beginning in 1870, culminated in the reestablishment of the Jewish State." - Jewish Virtual Library	MYTH “Palestine was always an Arab country.” FACT "When Jews began to immigrate to Palestine in large numbers in 1882, fewer than 250,000 Arabs lived there, and the majority of them had arrived in recent decades" -Jewish Virtual Library

"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail."
Rabbi Yaacov Perrin at the funeral of mass murderer Baruch Goldstein.
(Feb. 27, 1994)

But tell us, please, where your contribution of humour is here. Do you have a link to some of your entertainiing prose that we could check for some much needed entertainment?

And what "relevant facts" have you provided with respect to the plight of the refugees under discussion that you hope will disprove what I've stated above?

Or are you waiting for anti CFB to emerge on the Board and -- wait! I see he's right below you.

Alex, I feel ashamed and am embarrassed for that condescending post. Let me extend my sincerest apologies to you. I guarantee you my forger is incapable of ever apologizing, the bloody amadan and sick excuse for humanity that s/he is.

My forger's mind is void of real intelligence.

I note you're just another propagandist for the little terrorist state that does.

>>> "Alleged Israeli massacres and other atrocities".
Well, nothing has changed, has it? We're still hearing that about today's atrocities, and, of course, they.are "alleged". Ye'ah, and the sky is falliing.

>>> "The crux of the issue is whether or not the Jewish forces acted in a manner which goes beyond the normal course of warfare, or if, on the contrary, any casualities were either opposing Arab armed forces or civilians who were accidentally killed due to battle".

You're taught this crap in school, are you?

The crux of the issue, contrarily, is how dare you and others attempt to rewrite history, and then accuse others of doing what you're expert at yourselves.

It does not work, and has never worked, with me.

It doesn't matter what evidence exists, Israel will discount it. It will accuse the victims of being the perpetrators. It will cough up such much used terminology as "oh, they were caught in the crossfire", or "he's a militant", or "it was self defence", or "we were attacked", and the now constantly used "he's a terrorist", or "he's responsible for this, that, or whatever".

Hell not!

Authors such as Israel Shamir, Illan Pappe, Ran HaCohen, to mention three of the new breed of Israeli writers refuse to be silenced despite the abuse hurled upon them from within israel and the efforts to discredit them.

And Uri Avnery has lived through all the massacres, hasn't he, in his eighty years. And when anyone mentions his name, oh, my God, he's everything dastardly under God's great earth. You and his detractors wish!

If we were to believe your versioni of events, we'd have to accept that not a single Arab was murdered by maurauding Jewish terrorists from 1947 and beyond. We would have to accept that not a single village, much less 400 plus, were razed, villagers terrorized and forced to flee, and their towns taken over by the Jewish forces of the day.

Well, you will have a hell of a task ahead of you if you expect me to ignore history contained in newspapers of the day, which can be found in any library. You will have a hell of a task suggesteing that Pappe, Shamir, HaCohen and others have a poliltical agenda as opposed to an honest look at Israel's past and present.

You would have us not believe our own eyes. Again, let me say, hell not!

You stated, and I quote once again, that:
>>>" Israel is not at fault for the plight of the 1948 refugees and she hasn't done them harm following the 1948 war".

Qana is an April 1996 massacre. From 1948 through to the present there's been many more, all duly classified as a "accident", etc. The only people saying Qana was an accident is Israel and its supporters. Don't forget that prior to the shelling of the Qana refugee compound Israeli forces had flattened 17 villages, rendered hundreds of thousands of people homeless, killed 200 plus, and wounded hundreds.

And then the compound massacre.

Quite frankly, sir, I don't give much of a damn whether the entire compound were descendants of the 1948 refugees or, as I said before, only one was. They were butchered, innocent civilians, whose body parts Robert Fisk and other reporters on the scene slipped on as they walked about the blood soaked compound, and regardless of who they descended from they're dead.

That's what I say in response to the paragraphs beginning with "You're taught this crap" and ending with "Hell not!".

The following two brief paragraphs are off topic. The next is a strawman. As for the next I say those revisionist historians are of the same breed of Theodor Katz whom I mentioned above (especially Pappe who hails from Haifa University); not only do they have a political agenda and they would dispense with honesty, therefore it's very probable they have selectively used sources such as newspapers of that period in order to come up with their narratives.

Qana *wasn't* a massacre. Not only do Israel and it's supporters insist this was an accident, but also any fair minded person who hasn't been misinformed by people with no axe to grind, or your likes. The rest of our paragraph is off topic. The topic was the *1948 refugees*, not their offspring.

That's what I say in response to the paragraphs beginning with "You're taught this crap" and ending with "Hell not!".

The following two brief paragraphs are off topic. The next is a strawman. As for the next I say those revisionist historians are of the same breed of Theodor Katz whom I mentioned above (especially Pappe who hails from Haifa University); not only do they have a political agenda and they would dispense with honesty, therefore it's very probable they have selectively used sources such as newspapers of that period in order to come up with their narratives.

Qana *wasn't* a massacre. Not only do Israel and it's supporters insist this was an accident, but also any fair minded person who hasn't been misinformed by people with no axe to grind, or your likes. The rest of our paragraph is off topic. The topic was the *1948 refugees*, not their offspring.

No, I'm not a propagandist for Israel, but you're a pro-Palestinian propagandist bent on levelling the false accusation that Israel is a terrorist state, among others.

Palestinian child shot dead by Israeli troops
Jenin
November 23, 2003

A Palestinian boy was shot dead by Israeli troops during an army incursion yesterday in the northern West Bank city of Jenin, Palestinian medical sources said.

Ibrahim Jalamna, 11, was killed when Israeli troops responded with live ammunition to stone-throwing during an incursion in the east of the city involving around 10 Israeli armoured vehicles and one bulldozer, the sources said.

His death brought to 3,618 the total number of people killed since the start of the intifada in September 2000. Among them are 2,670 Palestinians and 852 Israelis, according to an AFP count.

- AFP

---

Value Projections

What happens here is that people who already disagree with a policy or person project the most hateworthy motives onto that person inorder to justify their hate for them scottie, Saturday November 15, 2003 at 11:41 AM

"IF I sought you out and THREW ROCKS AT YOU when you have a gun [then] YOU WILL SHOOT ME JUST LIKE ANY OTHER PERSON WOULD." scottie, Saturday November 15, 2003 at 02:50 PM

That's what I say in response to the paragraphs beginning with "You're taught this crap" and ending with "Hell not!".

The following two brief paragraphs are off topic. The next is a strawman. As for the next I say those revisionist historians are of the same breed of Theodor Katz whom I mentioned above (especially Pappe who hails from Haifa University); not only do they have a political agenda and they would dispense with honesty, therefore it's very probable they have selectively used sources such as newspapers of that period in order to come up with their narratives.

Qana *wasn't* a massacre. Not only do Israel and it's supporters insist this was an accident, but also any fair minded person who hasn't been misinformed by people with no axe to grind, or your likes. The rest of our paragraph is off topic. The topic was the *1948 refugees*, not their offspring.

No, I'm not a propagandist for Israel, but you're a pro-Palestinian propagandist bent on levelling the false accusation that Israel is a terrorist state, among others.

Did the people in those photos get shot by the people in the tanks? If not then you are being disingenuous.
If not then I accept the people in the tanks did not have sufficient reason to hit the morons (who were throwing rocks at it) with a tank shell. of course that doesn't stop them form being morons.
However I will bet that the tanks did not fire on those people so your incident implies the opposite of what you want it to prove.
Besides that your incident requires context otherwise --- If you drive along the road infront of my house I will contemplate your acceptance of the legitimacy of my throwing rocks at you since yo seem to so mindlessly accept the legitimacy of the agressor so long as they are also the underdog.

ln fact, I am not calling the kettle anything. I never mentioned a kettle. Kindly refrain from making such unfounded, irresponsible, and wholly meaningless accusations, in the form of a time-worn cliche yet, about me allegedly attacking the kettle, be it black or otherwise.

Next time you attack me with a cliche, sir, I promise I'll throw a dangling participle at you that will have you pushing the "help" button on your computer indefinitely. Have I made myself clear?

Moving along. Do not put me in the same category as yourself. I've been taught nil with respect to this "conflict". I live in Canada, sir. Here we, the people, have freedom of thought, which enables us to form our own views on international events, based on the credibility of reports presented, whether said thoughts are for or against "the conflict" or any other issue.

And I'll meander off topic any time I so desire. You dragged the unfortunate 1948 refugees into a Rachel Corrie Banner thread. Are you saying you're on topic?

Your assessment (hehehe) of Shamir, Pappe, and the ever increasingly popular Ran HaCohen is only what one would expect with regards to three brilliant writers who have dared step away from the lies and deceit and propaganda of the past several decades and are telling it like it is. Bravo for them and others we have not heard of yet.

It's way past time dear Uri Avnery ceased being the only voice being heard. I'm surprised you're not calling him a "revisionist", but I daresay it's difficult to do that when, unlike the other three, Uri has lived through the history of Israel and prior to. And thank God for that!

Actually the only "supporter" of Israel's massacre of Qana was the US, and make no mistake about it, it was a massacre pure and simple. And the events leading up to the bombing of the UN compound would, in, and of, themselves be a massacre even without the compound bombing.

You're in denial, lad. But you've been there before, yes?

Nice graphics though
oh and by the way in those photos the israelis have "tanks" not "guns" and since the israelis are not visible the individuals are throwing stones at the tank as opposed to the israelis.

still it has similarities to the person who climbed into a lions cage at a zoo with the intention of fighting the lion..... not surprisingly he died. did he really ever stand a chance? lions fault? or maybe just stupid human?

Value Projections

What happens here is that people who already disagree with a policy or person project the most hateworthy motives onto that person inorder to justify their hate for them scottie, Saturday November 15, 2003 at 11:41 AM

"IF I sought you out and THREW ROCKS AT YOU when you have a gun [then] YOU WILL SHOOT ME JUST LIKE ANY OTHER PERSON WOULD." scottie, Saturday November 15, 2003 at 02:50 PM

"I'm going to be Iron
like a Lion
in Zion"
-Robert Nester Marley

Do you actually have a point?

Natural Selection

"To lay out the basic assumptions---- I believe that the natural state for humans like you could see in papua new guinea is one of constantly murdering each other." scottie, Tuesday March 11, 2003 at 01:58 PM

and that is a "BAD THING"
It is education and upbringing and laws that teach morals you dont generally speaking get born with them

Nice to see I am quote worthy though

quote:
=============
It is education and upbringing and laws that teach morals you dont generally speaking get born with them
============

***CONGRATULATIONS***, scottie!!


I guess you must know a little about game theory and the evolution of reciprocal altruism...

Hehehe!

On Sunday 23 November 03 at 4:46 p.m. I responded to a post from Anti CFB wherein I told him if he ever attacked me with a cliche again I would throw a dangling participle at him.

I haven't heard from him since. Hell, I didn't realize it was so simple! A dangling participle could effectively become the new weapon of choice in the war of words on SF Indymedia.

Score: Angie 1, Anti CFB 0!!!
(Afraid of a dangling participle, yet! What's the world coming to?)

I suggest you don't flatter yourself.

It's not that I'm afraid of your "dangling participles" or any other "weapon".
The reason I refrain from posting further is I didn't see fit to carry on with the debate. I'd made my points but you were too dishonest and obtuse to face the facts you didn't like.

Gehrig already told you, and I agree, that you're quite the idiot. Your childish and foolish post here confirms gehrig's diagnosis.

Go back to kindergarten.

A question. Is it possible that the imminent David Gehrig and anti-CFB were separted at birth?

I am quite intrigued with your above post.

Can we asssume, then, that Cain was the first (ahem)recorded bald man?

I love those little known facts (hehehe) of biblical times!!! Let's have more of them!

There's "anti CFB", whose sense of fun is non-existant, and who obviously wouldn't smile if his life depended on same, accusing me of being "dishonest" whilst he scurries off the board, unwilling to "debate". Come, come, anti CFB!

Frankly, your assertion of my "dishonesty" is totally without merit.

And then we have the gospel according to Anti CFB.

>>> "Gehrig already told you, and I agree, that you're quite the idiot".

Poor deluded soul that you are, you take his word for that assessment of myself. Tut, tut, tut. Where's your independent mind? Ooops! Right. You don't have one.

Let me state emphatically that Gehrig, bowed down as he is from the weight of chasing anti-semites, real and imaged, about the board, is merely another human, lad. And humans are prone to make oftentimes grave errors.

He made one when he called me "quite the idiot", and when he added "aren't you", and didn't put a question mark following it, well, I was even more shocked indeed.

I suggest if you want confirmation as to my "idiot" state or otherwise, that you ask GOD. Poor Gehrig is not GOD (except, perhaps, in his own wee mind!)

>>> "Go back to kindergarten".
Hehehe! How typically dismissive.

Score:
Angie 2, Anti CDB 0.

A further question:

Is it possible they are still joined at the hip?

You've proven you're pretty detached from reality on this board. What else is new.

Post more childish nonsense here if you wish. I'm moving on to more important things.

You've proven you're pretty detached from reality on this board. What else is new.

Post more childish nonsense here if you wish. I'm moving on to more important things.

This "delusional toddler" (hehehe) agrees it's high time you moved on to "more important things". I can't imagine what, but as long as you're moving on . . .

Angie 3, Anti CFB 0.
Game over!

> ***CONGRATULATIONS***, scottie!!
> I guess you must know a little about game theory and the evolution of reciprocal altruism...

The above theory is an attempt to explain why humans are not 100% selfish (because of the obvious argument for being selfish) and have some altruistic behaviour as opposed to a theory that results in the conclusion that humans are "altruistic".

evolutionary theory would say humans are "altruistic" in as far as that sort of action resulted in future gains for their ancestors. For those situations where that was not true and deception or betrayal etc were more effective for their ancestors there will be "betrayal genes".

Anyway as it happens I dont need to resort to such primitive logic.
A number of studies have demonstrated the relationship between for example small childrens attitudes towards strangers and genetics. In fact there are whole journals dedicated to this for example the journal of evolutionary behaviour.