FBI release warrant for activist in SF!

are you going to go fetch him, Nessie?

"
Anti-human terrorists strikes again in their war against sick people
by nessie Friday September 26, 2003 at 11:22 AM

and the rights of all of us to choose not to die slow, painful hideous deaths. These people are no different than al-Queda or the Army of God. They are evil, sick, twisted and oppressive religious fanatics. They must be stopped by any means necessary. I recommend a sound pummeling with stout cudgels for starts. Then kick them repeatedly. Aim for the face. It’s much kinder treatment than they deserve, as anyone who has ever lost a loved one to liver failure can soundly attest.

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/09/1648496_comment.php
"

Sounds like someone read too much La Rouche material about attacking fellow activists.

I think that we should all be concerned about this--whether or not this young man was involved in those bombings, it seems like he's going down. The US clearly wants to blame someone, and since they have a name it's clear that they want this one guy. That's another political prisoner, and one less activist on the street!

Good luck, Daniel Andreas San Diego!

If only that guy's first name were Carmen, then the FBI could dispatch squads of schoolchildren to find out where in the world he is, based on clues.

Anybody who protects this guy is sick. I hope they get the bastard. I have no sympathy for him.

He's not just some guy they wanted to scapegoat. A court judge has enough sealed evidence that he was involved or was the main perpetrator of these attacks to issue an arrest warrant for this man.

Everytime our good friend nessie makes a nice comment associating animal rights activists with nazis, make a donation to SHAC in the name of "nessie", not the whale. Very simple, don't get mad, get even.
Oppression is all linked, break the chains.

Another sad example of a corporation pulling off an insurance scam by using low level vandalism (cash payoff to unknown explosive person), xtra money from insurance "vandalism protection" policy, do some remodeling to "damaged" area..

Kind of like the Pentagon smashing up their wall on 9/11so they could remodel the outdated building..

When this is blamed on eco/Islamic terrorists, the public rallies behind the government/industry and hunts for the evil Arab/animal rights activists who are scapegoated..

Corporations/government gets remodeled building, public is on mass media militarized witchhunt, scapegoats harrassed/killed/arrested by FBI/CIA/military..

Anyone want to play "hunt the Boeing?"

what is up with this shit? Before this administration came to power with its PATRIOT Crap, animal rights activists didn't bomb shit. They might break in and steal the lab animals, but that was about it.

I don't buy the crappy stories. More setups.

Nessie and Normal Guy are off their rockers. Nessie sounds like an irrellevant and paranoid freak who likes to drop "COINTELPRO" around as if it was still hip activist parlance. Earth-to-Nessie: dropping that word no longer makes you sound cool or in-the-know. It is much like motorized couches at Burning Man - passe. And, how do you make the jump to causing liver cancer from bombing empty buildings? Do all you "pro-human" activists think that animal testing is still necessary or that it produces any good results? Grow up before you die. And realize that we can make so many products and medicines from all the ingredients we already have. Gillette still tests razors to see if they cut rabbits' eyes ... Hello - Gillette, razors do cut eyes - so, you can free all the rabbits now and go and get real jobs. But, there is the real deal - these labs need to justify their existence and their budgets - that is why all the animal testing continues. Everyone knows we could get by without it by now. I don't need to subject a rat to large doses of Methyl Bromide to know that it is toxic. It's toxic OK (period.)

So, go take your "pro-human" and shoove it. Your not "pro" anything except outdated tactics that are unnessarilly cruel, and mostly lead to new toxins and jobs for guys in lab coats.

eek - don't give yourself liver cancer by writing hyperbolic web-postings at the radiating screens all day. Try some fresh air ... outside ... people ... facetime ... it helps with the paranoia and irrellevancy.

Is nessie actually siding with the authorities against this, if guilty, petty vandal?

What a fucking reactionary snob.

If I was in the SF-IMC collective, I would consider expelling him.

"Another sad example of a corporation pulling off an insurance scam by using low level vandalism (cash payoff to unknown explosive person), xtra money from insurance "vandalism protection" policy, do some remodeling to "damaged" area..

Kind of like the Pentagon smashing up their wall on 9/11so they could remodel the outdated building.. "

Since there were hundreds of witnesses that saw the 767 flown into the Pentagon I guess what you're saying is that it's pretty far fetched that either of the two companies are pulling some kind of insurance scam.

"Norman Gilroy said he had rented the house to San Diego in June. The organic farmer, who lives in a house behind the 25-year-old, said San Diego appeared to be a law-abiding, "extremely poised man."

"A clean-cut, soft-spoken 25-year-old Sonoma County man, who was trying to invent a vegan marshmallow, is being hunted by federal agents on charges that he bombed two Bay Area companies in the name of animal rights. "

"The last thing I would picture him as is a bomber," Gilroy said. "He is a very nice young man -- a well-spoken intellectual."

Gilroy said San Diego was a vegan who was working on developing a marshmallow made without gelatin. Gelatin is made by boiling animal tissue in water. "

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2003/10/10/MN13925.DTL

News on Web

The group SHAC, or Stop Huntingdon Animal Cruelty, posted news of San Diego's arrest warrant on its Web site Thursday.

``The FBI couldn't catch a cold, let alone an underground liberation activist,'' said the statement.

San Diego once worked at the Mill Valley offices of In Defense of Animals, a non-profit organization known for creating a chimpanzee sanctuary and education center in the Republic of Cameroon in West Africa. Former colleagues said he was a dedicated worker who volunteered his time before taking a full-time job doing administrative work about four years ago.

``He hasn't been here in three or four years,'' said Dr. Elliot Katz, In Defense of Animals' president and founder. ``He was a very bright, very nice young man. He cared deeply for the animals.''

Anita Carswell, the organization's office manager, said San Diego left the organization in 1999 but since then has been seen at social events, such as fundraisers and potluck suppers.

But she stressed that the media and the public should not assume that San Diego is guilty.

``A long time ago I was arrested and falsely accused of breaking windows at Neiman Marcus,'' said Carswell, who said that it took months of legal wrangling to clear her name. The charges eventually were dropped, she said. ``Just because the FBI are claiming that they have a suspect doesn't mean that he did it. I feel for Andreas. The FBI has a long history of targeting activist movements.''

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/6980341.htm

The 60’s style assault on political activists in San Francisco over the past few days has been the result of the FBI taking another stab at being a real ‘law enforcement’ agency. ‘Daniel San Diego’ has been named and is being sought in connection to the explosions that occurred at Chiron and Shaklee, for their contractual relationships to Huntingdon Life Sciences.

Stop Huntingdon Animal Cruelty USA does not know this individual and has had no contact with him.

Following the FBI's previous humiliating failures with such “suspects” as Bjorn, Joni, and Sweet (who were allegedly seen “speeding away” from Chiron), SHAC USA treats the evidence on which Daniel's arrest warrant is based with great hesitation. The arrest, and later vindication, of Josh Connole in Los Angles for possible involvement in Earth Liberation Front arson activity is another recent example of this federal agency ruining lives and reputations in their directionless pursuits.

The FBI couldn't catch a cold, let alone an underground liberation activist. Time and time again this agency has proven its inability to make arrests for political direct action activities and has scored few actual prosecutions. Unfortunately, however, he number of civil liberties that have been trampled in the process is staggering, and as a result, actual freedom and stability in this country is that much weaker.

Huntingdon Life Sciences and its clients, like Chiron and Yamanouchi, should feel no more comfortable today with the FBI’s announcement than they did when the bombs were detonated. Regardless of whether these ‘Inspector Cluestos’ of the FBI will get their man or not, the international campaign to close HLS continues unfettered and even more determined. The crimes these animal-testing companies have been exposed for has evoked an unprecedented amount of protest action and Huntingdon’s fate as a dead company has never been more certain

http://www.shacamerica.net/news_oct09a_03.htm

wow - he was an indymedia volunteer. I was trying to find a 'daniel san diego' in google, but didn't find anything.

The FBI is probably totally tapping the walls of imc.

Most of those posts are to nonSF Indymedia sites. But it is silly for people to pretend they dont know someone when so much information (like those Google results are available to the FBI and anyone else). The fact that Daniel posted with his real name so many times and even posted about animal rights events is a good sign that he didnt do this.

One scary thing from the sfgate report is that they mention they were watching him for months and they released his name and picture because they lost track of him. He may have just gone on a camping trip or to a friends house for a few days and suddenly his life is in danger because the FBI thinks hes on the run...

My guess is that the FBi has no leads and they just decided to go after some random former animal rights activist who fit a profile. They released all of these scare warnings through media channels in an effort to get more information since they really have no clue who carried out the bombing.

Worked at wireless firm

He worked until early 2003 for Critical Path -- a San Francisco-based wireless software firm -- and used his Critical Path e-mail account in correspondence with American and British activists, including some engaged in animal-rights issues. In one posting, San Diego wrote critically about Jackson Laboratory, the largest U.S. producer of genetically altered mice for biomedical research.

"Researchers can order mice varieties known as deaf waddler, claw paw, flailer, twitcher, tight-skinned ... These mice are bred to suffer," reads a 2000 posting under San Diego's name.

Almost a year later, he pressed fellow activists to write articles about demonstrations sponsored by SHAC. But San Diego's other Web postings suggest his ideological concerns aren't limited to animal rights. In one posting, he railed against Spanish antiterrorism efforts and portrayed the "Amerikkkan Libertarian Party" as "proto-capitalist nazi (expletive)."

http://www.oaklandtribune.com/Stories/0,1413,82~1865~1689539,00.html

Anyone who calls the "Amerikkkan Libertarian Party" "proto-capitalist nazi [fucks]" can't be all bad.

I would say that it would behoove most people to calm down, understand that this is not the only action the FBI has taken in the last few days, that people who are close friends with Andreas are probably doing everything they can in his interest, and leave it at that.

If the FBI is just holding Andreas and pretending to be on a manhunt for him or if they are making a big public to-do about it, exactly what they want is for people to start blabbing, start identifying themselves, start poking their heads out of the sand so that the real motivation here (stopping an effective campaign against HLS) can be accomplished.

For this, I really wonder why someone is on this message board baiting people, baiting local groups, and etc. Perhaps we should draw up a social network map for the FBI and hand deliver it to them?

The person posting on here makes it sound like they know people who are acting suspicious, or they know people who are pretending to not know someone, or whatever. Who are you talking to? What the fuck are you talking about? Or is your mission to post baiting, cryptic messages on things that are obviously very intense for a lot of people?

Let me wager a guess: a person from a rich background with nothing going on besides their upwardly-mobile non-activist life exists in such ignorance about this person and this situation, but also has such arrogance that what they think should happen is going to posted all over local BBS'es. And when they go to their next activist social scene event, they can get excited and gossip even more than they already do. Life is bigger than your spastic, gossipy and immature blubberings. I don't know Andreas, but I imagine he would probably want these kind of gossipy, careless, baiting "anarchists" to fall off the face of the earth.

As for a response to what is going on, I imagine that Andreas's close friends and family will come up with something as soon as the intense pressure that is going on right now is over. I would suggest that they are the ultimate people who will decide what happens next, and that anyone else have some fucking respect for that.

In the academic world, experiments on animals are ideally suited to the rapid production of scientific papers; researchers can produce results from a variety of species and then perform more experiments in an attempt to understand the differences. The laboratory rat has even been described as 'an organism, which when injected, produces a paper'.

Animal research is also fast. With their shorter life-span, laboratory animals have more rapidly-developing disease processes, again facilitating the rapid production of research papers. This is vital in the 'publish or perish' world of academic science where career advancement is primarily dependent on publications; the more articles published, the better the chances of promotion and continued financial support'.

Science on Trial (Awareness Publishing, 1994), p.135

He was given a speeding ticket in the area of one of the bombings acting all ticky and nervous. The police officer knowing that bombings had occured notified FBI. Connecting it with evidence they had collected and interviews conducted, they issued the arrest warrant. ALF said they were responsible for both attacks to the police. San Diego is involved with the ALF. Open and Shut unless he want's to explain himself .

Nessie, if you want to torture and steal animals for your profit, go ahead and be a anthropocentric individual. You steal my dog for your flawed taobacco science research and I'll personally come kick your butt right on down the road. And i've seen your sorry out of shape ass. Would be easy to win, but it'd be more of a challenge to get you to see the other side of the coin and learn that criticizing the animal testing industry might have some valid points to it and that not all animal rights supporters are evil as you'd like to paint them with a broad sweeping brush.

For those readers with an open mind to the vivisection debate. Read and learn. Science involving big money, is just as oppressive as any other capitalistic adventure. Where's the information that points to the successes utilized by animal testing? Honestly, I'm interested, cause my mind hasn't been made up, yet Nessie's seems to be.

Xenotransplantation—transplanting cells, tissues or organs from one species into another species—began in earnest in the early 1900s. There have been many different attempts at xenotransplantation. In 1905, a French surgeon put pieces of rabbit kidneys into a child who died two weeks later. 1 In 1923, an American surgeon transplanted a lamb kidney into a human who died nine days later. 2 In 1964, another American surgeon transplanted a chimpanzee heart into a man who died two hours later. 3 In 1984 Leonard Bailey transplanted a baboon heart into newborn "Baby-Fae" in California — she died 20 days later. 4

In the entire history of xenotransplantation, there has never been a successful whole-organ animal to human transplant. 5 Most human xenograft recipients die anywhere from hours to weeks after receiving the animal organ.

Why are scientists doing cross-species organ transplants?

The majority of xenotransplant scientists claim they are doing it because of the shortage of human organs available for transplants. A group of scientists, physicians and surgeons brought together by the International Society for Heart and Lung Transplantation states, "…researchers are constantly looking for ways to expand the number of donor organs that become available. While there is no question that human organs are best suited for humans, xenotransplantation research should be pursued…because animals, such as the pig, could [emphasis added] offer an unlimited supply of organs and allow the transplant procedures to be scheduled on an elective basis." 6

How serious is the human organ shortage? And what can be done to address this shortage that is safer and better for humans than xenotransplantation?

Although there is a severe organ donation shortage — the reason may not be due to a lack of organs.
More public awareness of the organ donation crisis would help increase the number of organs available for transplant. At present, only about 20% of people who die healthy (e.g. in accidents, from violence, etc.) have arranged to donate their organs. 7

Additionally, many of the people receiving transplants have diseases that are preventable. For instance, it is estimated that 100,000 first-time heart attacks could be averted and $13 billion in medical costs could be saved by the year 2005 if Americans simply reduced their average saturated fat intake by as little as one to three percentage points. 8

The number of persons actually requiring transplants could be reduced by funding preventative healthcare programs advocating positive lifestyle measures such as not smoking, exercising regularly, and eating a healthful diet.

Further, if the United States adopted laws similar to those of Austria, Spain, Belgium, and Singapore there would be a potential increase in the availability of human organs. In these nations, organ donation rates soared after "presumed consent" laws passed. Such laws assume that citizens will donate their organs after death unless they specifically "opt out." 9 In Sweden and Denmark similar "mandated choice" laws require citizens to indicate whether or not they want to donate their organs. These measures have increased donations by hundreds of thousands. 10

What are the dangers of xenotransplantation?
Putting animal parts into humans can expose the recipient to potentially deadly animal viruses. Such cross-species viruses could hurt not only the original recipient but could spread to humans worldwide. Dr. David Cooper, former transplant surgeon and president of the International Xenotransplantation Association, says, "The…concern is, are we going to do any harm by transferring infectious agents to the patient…[and] Then infect the community." 11 Even if scientists can screen for some viruses in animals there is always the potential for unknown viruses to exist and, therefore, to be missed by the screening. Also, through mutations, viruses can change from benign to harmful or even deadly. Finally, it is impossible to have completely pathogen-free animals. 12

Many viruses can cross-over from animals to humans, such as the hepadnavirus, papillomavirus, retrovirus, aterivirus, togavirus, adenovirus, hantavirus, and papovavirus. Viruses that have crossed-over from animals to humans have killed scores of people. For instance, in the 1950s the Asian flu killed a million people and in the late 1960s the Hong Kong flu killed 700,000. And it is thought that the 1918 Spanish flu that killed 20 million people was caused by a virus that was transmitted from animals to humans. 13

Nearly all transplanted organs, except those of identical twins, spur rejection by the recipient, even in allotransplants — organs transplanted between the same species. In xenotransplantation, the transplanted organ may cause hyperacute rejection — a severe, life-threatening rejection of the transplanted part and acute vascular rejection, an inflammation of blood vessels. Researchers have spent millions of dollars in developing transgenic pigs that have human "flags" on their cells in hopes that their organs will not be rejected, but these efforts so far have been completely unsuccessful. 14

What are the financial costs of developing xenotransplantation?

Xenotransplantation research is an expensive attempt to examine a risky and unethical enterprise. A noted scientist, Mae-Wan Ho says, "…it is bad science working together with big business for quick profit aided and abetted by our government…" 15 Some researchers, however, hope for a lucrative market and apparently ignore the risks and harm that xenotransplantation actually poses. Millions of taxpayer dollars are allocated for this research. The following are just a few of the federally-funded xenotransplant projects recently undertaken:

· $1,974,144 of federal funds in 2000 went to A.B. Cosimi at Massachusetts General Hospital (MGH) for research on swine and nonhuman primates. And in 2001 he received $2,028,495 for xenotransplantation research. 16 And David Sachs, also of MGH, received $1,481,206 federal dollars for xenotransplantation research. 17

· $99,900 went to John Gibbons of ProLinia, Inc., in Athens, Georgia for "Novel Pig Cloning Procedures for Xenotransplantation." Gibbons writes, "The use of pigs as organ donors for humans is potentially a $6 billion market. ProLinia will play a niche role in developing xenotransplantation."18

· The National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute gave $113,853 to Moses Njenga of the University of Minnesota Twin Cities to examine the risk of a porcine (pig) virus in xenotransplantation. The research involves putting infected pig tissues into immunodeficient mice and in studying monkey-to-monkey and pig-to-monkey transplantations. 19

· According to a May 2001 Boston Globe article, Massachusetts’ Immerge BioTherapeutics and Wisconsin’s Infigen will receive $1.7 million from the Commerce Department’s National Institute for Science and Technology in a joint venture to produce pigs for xenotransplantation. 20

What are some companies that are researching xenotransplantation?

A partial list includes:
· Alexion Pharmaceuticals of Connecticut
· Biotransplant of Massachusetts (Imutran, a British company was bought out by Novartis and merged with Biotransplant)
· Genzyme Transgenics Corporation of Massachusetts
· Geron of California
· Infigen of Wisconsin
· Nextran Inc., a division of Baxter Healthcare Corporation of New Jersey

Position on xenotransplantation?
Some anti-vivisectionist believe all xenotransplantation research should be permanently banned for the following reasons:

· Thousands of animals suffer and die for xenotransplant experimenters’ curiosity and greed. Over the years, baboons, chickens, chimpanzees, dogs, goats, monkeys, pigs, rabbits, rats, and other species have died in xenotransplant research.

· There is no guaranteed way to eliminate the possibility of a transmissible deadly cross-species virus that may cause a global human health catastrophe.

· Individual recipients die and their families suffer as a result of these medical failures.

· The United States is spending millions of dollars into developing risky and unsuccessful xenotransplant procedures. Meanwhile, certain health problems that are prevalent and can successfully be corrected go unaddressed.

Approximately 43 million Americans are without health insurance coverage; 21 millions of Americans are turned away from under-funded, under-available smoking, alcohol, and drug treatment programs and facilities; industrial polluters of our environment, a major cause of illness and death to Americans each year, are allowed to operate with minimal if any adequate controls; and preventative health measures are under-utilized and under-encouraged.

Major accomplishments in fighting human disease would be made if the government prioritized funding access to healthcare coverage and treatment facilities for all Americans, and promised all Americans freedom from industrially produced environmental toxins. Spending taxpayers' money to help develop the unpromising and even dangerous option of xenotransplantation when there are better and safer options already available is poor government spending and bad medicine.

The push for cross-species organ transplants profits only those research and breeding facilities that will reap tremendous financial gain whether the project ultimately succeeds or fails. Meanwhile xenotransplantation promises to be a failure.

Xenotransplantation offers nothing to the millions of Americans who have health concerns that could and should be addressed by non-animal based research and could and should be treated with better health care priorities.

Xenotransplantation is neither good science nor good ethics and should be banned.

How can I help stop xenotransplant research and increase the human organ donor pool?

· Politely tell Secretary of Health and Human Services, Tommy Thompson, that you want a ban on xenotransplant research and development for the reasons stated above.

Secretary Tommy Thompson
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
200 Independence Ave., SW
Washington, DC 20201
Fax: 202-619-0257
Toll Free Tel: 1-877-696-6775
hhsmail [at] os.dhhs.gov

· Ask your congressional representative to introduce "presumed consent" legislation.
For your senator: http://www.senate.gov/ contacting/index.cfm

For your representative(s): http://www.house.gov/writerep
Call 800-688-9889 to find the names of your legislators.

The Honorable Representative __________
U.S. House of Representatives
Washington, DC 20515
· Become an organ donor.
Contact the United Network for Organ Sharing/Coalition on Donation
1100 Boulders Parkway, Suite 700
Richmond, VA 23225-8770
Fax: 804-323-7343
Phone: 804-330-8620
coalition [at] unos.org
http://www.shareyourlife.org


Find out if your Motor Vehicle Registry allows you to register on your driver’s license to be an organ donor. In the U.S., you can find your state’s Registry contact information by going to:
http://www.state.oh.us/odps/division/bmv/mv50.html

· Sign the Campaign for Responsible Transplantation’s online petition:
http://www.crt-online.org/petition.html

· Minimize your chances of needing an organ transplant by adopting a healthy lifestyle. Don’t smoke; drink alcoholic beverages in moderation; exercise regularly; and, eat a low-fat vegetarian diet.
—May 2001

C. Ray Greek and Jean Swingle Greek, Sacred Cows and Golden Geese (New York: Continuum, 2000), 206
Tony Stark, Knife to the Heart: The Story of Transplant Surgery (UK: Macmillan, 1996) 233.

1. Ibid., 158-162.
2. Anon, "Grandstand Medicine", Nature Nov. 8, 1984.
3. Medical Research Modernization Committee’s publication, Of Pigs, Primates, and Plagues.
4. International Society for Heart and Lung Transplantation press release December 15, 2000.
5. Richard L. Worsnop, "Organ Transplants: Can the Number of Donors Be Increased?," CQ Researcher 5, August 11, 1995.
6. Gerry Oster, David Thompson, "Estimated Effects of Reducing Dietary Saturated Fat Intake on the Incident and Cost of Coronary Heart Disease in the US," Journal of the American Dietetic Association 96 (1996): 127-31.
7. Ian Kennedy, et al., "The case for Presumed Consent in Organ Donation," The Lancet, May 30, 1996: 351.
8. Moussa Awounda, "Swedish Organ-Donation Drive Set for Success," The Lancet, May 18, 1996: 347.
9. Maggie Fox, "Too soon for animal-human heart transplants" The Hindustan Times, December 18 2000.
10. Institute of Medicine’s 1996 Report
11. Greek and Greek, 216.
12. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/
shows/organfarm/etc/faqs.html back to article >>
13. The Unholy Alliance. The Ecologist Vol. 27, no.4, pp. 152-158.
14. NIH’s Computer Retrieval of Information on Scientific Projects (CRISP)
15. Ibid.
16. Ibid.
17. Ibid.
18. Naomi Aoki, "Charlestown biotech in pig-clone venture" Boston Globe May 9, 2001.
19. U.S. Census Bureau statistic for 1999.

What is the evidence that he was in the ALF? Where did you read about the speeding ticket?

"No friend of mine.
by nessie Friday October 10, 2003 at 12:15 PM
"
I used to like this site and respect the editors but this is downright sick. The FBI attacks a probably innocent young activist and not only do people not stick by him, they openly stab him in the back. Is there some alternative activist website that one can post news to in the Bay Area thats not run by an asshole?

There's something happening here
What it is ain't exactly clear
There's a man with a gun over there
Telling me I got to beware

I think it's time we stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down

There's battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
Young people speaking their minds
Getting so much resistance from behind

I think it's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down

What a field-day for the heat
A thousand people in the street
Singing songs and carrying signs
Mostly say, hooray for our side

It's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away

We better stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, now, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down

http://www.clarkson.edu/~winklebh/vietnam2/buffalo.html

Has anyone noticed how the ALF apologists are trying to drown out the truth by flooding this site with really long, thread choking comments the way Zionists do?

the pleasanton police said they gave andreas a speeding ticket about an hour before the shaklee bomb went off.

his car was found a few days ago in sf

San Diego was also active with the San Francisco Independent Media Center, a non-commercial collective of independent media makers and media outlets in the Bay Area.

San Diego often posted e-mails to ``indymedia,'' offering technical advice to other activists and spreading the word about progressive political issues.

``if you want, we have friends in the UK animal lib movement . . . i can probably get some info for you if you are interested,'' reads a 2001 posting under San Diego's name.

Public records show that San Diego used to live in a group house on 63rd Street in North Oakland before moving to Schellville, a rural hamlet in Sonoma County, in June.

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/6985471.htm

Well it doesn't surprise me that Nessie hasn't met him, since just about everyone that used to do IMC has quit IMC since Nessie and the local IMC became an elitest sect of self-proclaimed revolutionary mouthpiece for intellectual anarchism. Anyway, I met San Diego on a couple occassions at SF-IMC meetings, events. My impression was that he was a well mannered person with a good education and resources, beyond that I refuse to comment. It's really pathetic that a member of SF-IMC can do nothing but talk trash about someone that is not even in a position to defend themselves, but that is typical of the current SF-IMC.

"Which meetings? Be specific."

Who is doing the FBI's work now?

I am another ex-imcer and could give you details since its pretty public domain being on the lists an all (and his work with imcs was mainly tech related and not that related to animal rights).... but this isnt exactly the time or place (if you rally want to know try asking other imc people at the next meeting).... if he does get killed or arrested Im sure there will be plenty people speaking out who knew and liked him.

For now its probably enough for people to express that he was a nice person who we all liked and hope wont get hurt.

"The Internet messages posted by San Diego at uk.indymedia.org originated from his address at Critical Path, but Fulton said he had no further information about San Diego's activities"
http://www.marinij.com/Stories/0,1413,234~24407~1692127,00.html

How does the Marin Independent Journal know where he posted to any indymedia site from? Would the FBI really give a small newspaper that sort of information? Would his former employer really have a two year old record of every url posted to by any employee and would they give this info to a private newspaper? Im hoping Indymedia UK doesnt have two year old logs they released a newspaper...

Here is what I know re: IMC
Andreas has not worked with SF-IMC except some tech stuff a long time ago, and he has not talked to the vast majority of IMC for a while.

Specifically, he was totally disgusted by what he perceived as "Long Haul" types, RTS types, and the assorted group of crazies that went along with them.
Obviously, a lot of people are turned off by this kind of subcultural weirdness. The whole point of the subculture is to be as alienating to as many normal people as conceivably possible.

" totally disgusted by what he perceived as "Long Haul" types, RTS types, and the assorted group of crazies "

Bay Area anarchism really is something else. Its hard for certain people to go more than three sentences without getting in some sectarian swipe at other groups.

Brian Are you the Judean People's Front?
Reg Fuck off.
Brian What?
Reg Judean People's Front. We're the People's Front of Judea. Judean People's front, caw.
Francis Wankers.
Brian Can I join your group?
Reg No. Piss off.

Communists usually divide over interpretations of Marx, Lenin, or Trotsky (or over the year that the USSR went bad). Anarchist attacks on each other always seem more personal (style more than substance). But the end result is the same. Movement building is stopped in its tracks since new people are rejected or scared off, while groups openly get in the way of each others attempts to change things.

In the Bay Area would would "normal people" mean?

I'm most of the country I guess it would mean a white Christian couple who live in the suburbs and have 2.5 kids a dog and make a little over 40,000 a year as a familly. Even stereotypical normal people go through a rebellious stage as teenagers, take drugs, get in trouble, and become pretty conservative by their late 20s and early thirties. Of course even in Middle America normal people are in a slight minority and most people has some aspect of their lifestyle that is slighly abnormal

California is much more diverse than the rest of the country and the Bay Area is more diverse still. There is no dominant ethnic group and in the Bay Area and alternative lifestyles are very common. Someone trying hard to act stereotypically "normal" around here probably alienates more people than "normal" people who may be into paganism, S&M, skateboarding, moshing to punk music, doing donuts with their cars, or thousands of other things...

I agree with what x-imc'er said about why a lot of people don't work with SF-IMC anymore. I have gone to at least one meeting per year since the beginning, and each time I regret it. I don't just regret having gone, but I also always regret watching people like Nessie (the awful part is that he's not the only one, I think x-imc'er was one of them, too) derail the meetings. And then there is the fact that other people in the "collective" do really sketchy things, and do things against what the collective decides, etc, etc (none of them, by the way, are long haul or rts people!). The only way I could have had the patience to get more involved would have been if the collective had decided to not work with those people anymore. I can't speak for everyone, but I think it's a big part of why so many people have been to ONE meeting, and never go back.

I think it would behoove us all to read and take the advice of the book "War at Home" by Brian Glick, which is available through AK Press (http://www.akpress.org), amongst others. It has also been excerpted and/or paraphrased several times in Slingshot (http://slingshot.tao.ca). In fact, we should all read that book. Annually. And take its advice, anally.

you said:
Specifically, he was totally disgusted by what he perceived as "Long Haul" types, RTS types, and the assorted group of crazies that went along with them.
Obviously, a lot of people are turned off by this kind of subcultural weirdness.

me:
I am a long haul and rts "type," and I have met Andreas, and I know that the long haul and rts have very little to do (personnel-wise or in terms of political influence) with SF-IMC. Except for when RTS was one of the only things going on, so you used to cover our street parties. In fact, you were always asking us to inform you about things that were going on.

It all makes me think, though, that maybe Andreas was so sarcastic and stuff towards me because he knew I was an rts/long haul "type." But I think he was aware that even though I hung out with those people, he and I had more in common than just being vegans or whatnot (ie, we're human beings, have similar political views, etc).

So thanks a lot, "IMC," for that unwarranted attack. I hope the FBI is at your door asking you if you are harboring Andreas. You are one of the first people they would go to, and you pose a great security threat to Indymedia. Good luck with your ever-shrinking "subculture," and I hope you really think about the things I said.

"We’re solidly working class here, and proud of it. If it weren’t for all our day jobs, this place couldn’t even exist. "
just for the record, and for the truth (although such an abstract thing as that seems weird here). Being on the ssi government dole, doesn't really classify as working class. I think it would be more considered, lumpen prols. not a bad thing, but be true to who you are. Having computer industry jobs isn't really working class either, even if it is barely getting by in the expensive bay area.
Just cause you are "working class" indentified anarcho commies, doesn't mean you really are working class. unless there is some definition that eludes me.

i hope the above comments aren't hidden because they may be "off-topic". i actually find the discussion of sectarianism and bay are anarchism and IMC pretty relevant and interesting, though admittedly it has gotten ugly.

I think that says it all. I would prefer 1000 sectarians to even 1 pig-in-activists-clothing.
Either way, keep making anonymous comments and spreading gossip (or is it chisme?) that may or may not be true, as well as proclaiming your desire for the FBI to come after activists.

I didnt post that.

I would say the above discussion is a typical example of how groups divide. Person A makes rude statement about person B. Person B gets offended and make ruder statement about person A. Things escalate and the damage becomes long lasting and it becomes impossible for different movements/people to work with each other.

So far Nessie has made threating statements aganst animal rights activists and accused people who have sympathy for Andreas of being COINTELPRO. That seems likely to inflame people to make attacks back, dont you think?

Some eximc person, made a strong statement about IMC alienating them. I can guess who that person was and I dont think they posted anything else to this thread (and I dont think they are someone who worked with RTS or ever hung around the Long Haul). But I could be wrong.

An IMC person responded with an attack on the Long Haul and RTS, perhaps misinterpreting the previous post to be by someone else or just trying to start an argument with East Bay anarchists?

An RTS Long Haul person responded with an attack on the attacking person.... the line about the FBI seems a little harsh but not much harsher than calling people crazy or threating to beat people up.

The IMC person now reponds with the usual "your acting like a cop thing" that is the usual accusation of everyone.

and a typical internet flame war will probably ensue with everyone saying things they will regret later.

If only we were all Communists and could be attacking each other over interpretations of lines from the Marxist bible....personal attacks just seem so.... well personal

"Had anarchists been closely connected in organizational terms and had they in their actions abided strictly by a well-defined discipline, they would never have suffered such a rout. But, because the anarchists "of all persuasions and tendencies" did not represent (not even in their specific groups) a homogeneous collective with a well-defined policy of action, for that very reason, these anarchists were unable to withstand the political and strategic scrutiny which revolutionary circumstances imposed upon them. Disorganization reduced them to political impotence, separating them into two categories: the first made up of those who hurled themselves into systematic occupation of bourgeois properties, where they set up house and lived in comfort. These are the ones I term "tourists," the various anarchists who beetled around from town to town, in hope of stumbling across a place to live for a time along the way, taking their leisure and hanging around as long as possible to live in comfort and ease.

The other category was made up of those who severed all real connections with anarchism (although a few of them inside the USSR are now passing themselves off as the sole representatives of revolutionary anarchism) and fairly swooped upon the positions offered them by the Bolsheviks, even when the authorities were shooting anarchists who remained true to their revolutionary credentials by denouncing the Bolsheviks' treachery.

In the light of these facts, it will be readily understood why I cannot remain indifferent to the nonchalance and negligence currently to be encountered in our circles.

For one thing, it prevents the establishment of a coherent libertarian collective that would allow anarchists to assume their rightful place in the revolution, and, for another, it leads to a situation where we make do with fine words and grand ideas, whilst fading away when the time for action comes.

That is why I am speaking about a libertarian organization that rests upon the principle of fraternal discipline. Such an organization would lead to the crucial understanding between all of the living forces of revolutionary anarchism and would assist it in taking its rightful place in the struggle of Labor against Capital.

In this fashion, libertarian ideas can only gain a mass following, and not be impoverished. Only empty-headed, irresponsible chatter-boxes could balk at such an organizational set-up.

Organizational responsibility and discipline should not be controversial: they are the traveling companions of the practice of social anarchism.
"
-Makhno Dyelo Truda No. 7-8, December 1925-January 1926, p.6.
http://www.spunk.org/library/writers/makhno/sp001781/chap15.html

If he didn't like Long Haul types, RTS types and assorted crazies, he probably didn't bomb the shampoo company. I don't understand why Shaklee was such a big target compared to lots of other far more blatantly problematic companies, unless you do a lot of drugs.

I think discussion of sectarianism, anarchism and Indymedia is a usefull discussion too.

The Bay Area has a very diverse activist community. There are hundreds of activist groups around here with many people belonging to several groups. There are activists who love technology and genetic engineering and activists who are working to fight GM foods. There are activists who want to end animal testing and activists who think animal testing saves lives and is needed. There are Trotskyists, Leninists, Maoists, green anarchists, anarchoprimitivists, platformists, anarchist-communists, syndicalists, and groups that focus on issues of race, gender, sexuality and more. There are groups fighting for a free Palestine, for a free Kashmir, for a free Tibet and even a cab fleet with signs for a free Khalistan (see http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/in-khal.html for the less obvious symbol visible on thousands of Bay Area cars ) .

The Bay Area has Craigs List, but before SF Indymedia there wasnt a good central place to go to keep up to date with the latest protests (and not only get times for the events but updates on what happened if you missed them). Despite the spam Indymedias also allow for discussion and allow people to pratice arguing ones beliefs against an always available group of right wingers who help to sharpen everyones debating skills and toughen ones skin.

But Indymedias are not run as if they are part of the community. The community posts but doesnt have much of a say in the way this site is run. Should this site be a place where any activist can feel safe posting news on protests and events or should it be seen as mainly a tool for the anarchist subcommunity of activists? Or, should it be seen as the web pressence of an even smaller group of anarchists who belong to a single collective?

There are a lot of thing going on in the Bay Area that never make it to this site since its seen as representing a specific viewpoint. Is that a good thing or not? Should Sikh nationalists be enoucraged to debate the pros and cons of Khalistan in the same way that Palestinian activists debate Israel and Zionism. Should discussion of issues like urban sprawl, race relations at Bay Area highschools, and city council resolutions be encouraged in the same way as more "radical" issues. Its not that discussion is censored now (except for the right wing) but the site does have a direction and I think its one that makes it seem focused on a very small set of the issues Bay Area activists care about. There are no other sites around here where local politics and activism can be discussed so its worth asking how broad this site sees itself.

For those who posted above about being alienated from Indymedia, how do you think things could be changed so you would feel comfortable contributing? How do you see this site functioning now and how would you like to see it function in the future?

Huey Newton was a long haul type - or there is a famous picture of him taken on that block when the black panthers headquarters was right there, and he did have some problems.

Anyway, in my opinion if you think about it a second, the real lifestylists of Berkeley are the people crowding the parking lots of Whole Foods up the street, Andronico's and other organic food stores, who feel like they are environmentalists, comprising a force of good in the world by purchasing organic and socially responsible produce, cheeses and Ben & Jerry's, as opposed to the low-brow folks elsewhere who are crapping up the planet via their purchase of cheaper, oppressive products.

I think indymedia should be a journalism site. More people should take more time, write up articles about local events or carefully considered op-editorials, and upload those.
Someone else should start a bay area activist posting board and chat site where people can discuss and argue about things.

"I think indymedia should be a journalism site. More people should take more time, write up articles about local events or carefully considered op-editorials, and upload those"

How do you get there from here? With open posting anything that gets posted goes up on the site. Should things be censored more? Should a larger collective be built up? (if so how do you screen for politics?) Should comments be less prominent (how do you make that so?)

Really, the bullshit started with "ex-IMCer" posting on here as if Andreas was driven away from SF-IMC by people this poster has a problem with. This is problematic because it baits people to talk openly on this public forum about something which they probably shouldnt at this time, at least not without a lot of forethought. The follow-up reply to this about East Bay anarchists prolongs this, but the sentiment is probably true.

It begins even further back on this thread with someone insisting that some connection to IMC exists and trying to publicly prescribe what should happen next, vis-a-vis IMC. Again, I think this is bad because it baits people and the follow-up reply about "hand-delivering a social network map" is right on.

Nessie's comments are his usual fare -- anyone on here realizes real quick that Nessie does not like extreme animal rights activists. What the hell, respect for elders, etc, not to mention disliking militant veganism is certainly a mainstream opinion in most places we're all familiar with.

Furthermore, Nessie doesn't know Andreas because Andreas *never* worked with SF-IMC, really. Ever. He might have KNOWN some people involved with SF-IMC, he might have written some scripts for global tech, but I challenge anyone to show me one project he ever directly contributed to within SF-IMC. It doesn't exist.

I think all in all, we are experiencing a little bit of paranoia, a little bit of shock, and a little bit of celebrity-itis. That is, people who might have hung out with Andreas once or twice or even a handful of times suddenly want to act like they are inherently connected to him, act like he was a "member" of their group, especially if it carries little to no risk for themselves because they actually don't know him, aren't doing direct action things themselves, etc.

I think the one person on here had it right -- when the time comes, Andreas' close friends and family will come out with a response to this, when THEY feel comfortable with it. His parents have come out with the hire-an-attorney/plead-for-surrender standard thing you do when the FBI is all over you telling you horror stories of your son being killed in a deranged high speed manhunt chase. They need time just like everyone needs time.

If you don't know who his close friends and family are, you don't know him, you should probably just shut the fuck up and quit endangering people just so you can get off on your own gossip/ego trip.

"shut the fuck up and quit endangering people just so you can get off on your own gossip/ego trip. "

Isn't that what people tell us when we complain about the roundup of Muslims in the US after 9/11. The FBI went to the famillies and told them they would be better off if they didnt complain and worked through the legal system. If the FBI is going after an innocent Bay Area activist, that IS all of our business since they could come for any one of us next (especially if they plan on using new antiterrorism laws in this case). Its not trying to be COOL or trying to cash in on "celebrity-itis" if your worried that this is a first step in the FBIs attempt to start labelling domestic activist groups as terrorists.

The concern about Nessie's posts isnt that he opposes animal rights its his baiting of a member of the activist community as a "war criminal, and beneath contempt". Also, Im personally offended by comments like "Don’t tell us how to do our job", since most of the news posts to this site are by groups that dont seem to have much to do with Indymedia. Sure, people can stop posting and try to start other sites, but do you want that? Isnt Indymedia supposed to be run by the people and part of some global movement where anyone can "be the media"? This site could easilly turn into a blog for one or two people who seem to only post comments and never post news. How much of the local newswire was posted by Indymedia collective members?

-FTAA Caravan Fundraiser O11 9:04PM
-Nov. 7th Modesto: Mumia and Sherman: TeachIn/FilmShw/LetterWritting O10 1:57PM
-West Coast FTAA Consulta in Oakland, Oct 18 O09 11:21PM
-FBI release warrant for activist in SF! O09 1:36PM
-Berkeley Bowl Update and Action this Sunday(10/12)... O09 12:12PM
-Correction: Counterpunch Event at Berkeley, SUNDAY, Oct. 19: Is anti-Zionism anti-Semitic? O09 10:03AM
-The Recall, Enron and Schwarzenegger O09 9:00AM
-Today at 5 PM - "Media and Democracy" - Live Webcast O09 8:50AM
-Award Winning Journalist Robert Fisk in California Tonight and Tomorrow O09 1:34AM
-Report back from Finkelstein lecture O09 12:57AM
-Counterpunch Event at BERKELEY, Saturday, Oct. 18: Is anti-Zionism anti-Semitic? O09 12:29AM
-Gavin Newsom's favourite sport (by Latuff) O08 10:37PM
-Family And City Remember Gwen Araujo, Murders of Transgenders Continue Unabated O08 7:52PM
-ANTI-ZIONIST NORMAN FINKELSTEIN TONIGHT AT BERKELEY LAW SCHOOL! O08 5:01PM
-ZIONIST DEATH THREAT O08 4:09PM
-The Corporate Media Engineers an Election By the Numbers O08 3:52PM
-Billy Nessen O08 3:09PM
-The Paper Campaign O08 3:01PM
-School District to Vote on Healthy Schools O08 2:46PM

Probably none of it! When you really get down to it YOU collective members are the managers and the people posting news are the workers. You can tell us to start our own business and go elsewhere, but we could always go on strike!

If people dont like the rude comments and constant attacks on animal rights activists would it be possible to start a new SF Indymedia and have it linked from all of the other sites? Would one have to go to each of the other sites, who deterimines who gets the domain name? Is it a question of money (like a business) where the workers dont have the capital to get servers and hosting and the like so the managers can always hold that over the workers heads?

It's all about the money, indy just pertends to be liberal for donations and hand-outs

Radicals hate liberals more than they hate the government itself.

The people who run this site (Nessie and anonymous friends) oppose gun control, oppose the UN, believe that wars can be just, dont believe animal have rights, hate Communists and believe in an international Zionist conspiracy that controls the media. I really doubt any of the "editors" posting on this thread would call themselves "liberals"

The far right also talks about the working class and hates intellectual liberal types and believes in an international liberal Zionist conspiracy that controls the media. The only fundamental difference between the far left and far right seems to be national vs group loyalty (and a few other minor issues that are always open to change). And of course, the far right actually has the support of the working class wheras the radical left just pretends to talk for it.

We're the hosts. You're the guests. We provide you with a place to do your thing. You make use of it, and of us, our time, our energy, our talent and our skills, none of which we're getting paid for. You might have the common courtesy to thank us for the work we do to provide you with the soapbox from which you denounce, insult and endanger us. To accept our service without even thanking us, and then complain about how it's being delivered, is beyond rude. It's boorish.

"You make use of it, and of us, our time, our energy, our talent and our skills, none of which we're getting paid for."

Do you personally take pictures, write news stories or record audio for the site?

What do you do? Post rude comments and hide things? Thats SO MUCH WORK, we must all obey you our kind host? And who exactly are you? Indymedia as a whole is supposed to be run by US not by some crazy dictator?

I guess there probably is some work done for this site since there is that front page that does ocassionally get updated (about once every few weeks). But how much work does that take compared to going out and reporting on protests? In Seattle, Indymedia press passes were handed out to everyone and the whole idea of Indymedia was that WE could cover OUR OWN protests. I guess like most organizations desire for power has now resulted in a coup where OUR media has now become YOUR media (Sortof like when Pacifica tried to take over KPFA). At least at KPFA you dont have announcers on the air telling people with questions about the direction of the station to "shut up"; they value their listeners and see their mission as one of serving the activist community. SF Indymedia used to seem like that but these days we our just "guests" who have zero power compared to editors who see censoring things and making rude comments as the only work that is REAL.

There are several problems with these posts and comments, imho. First of all is structural. Indymedia and its comment portion is not an email list. When we have long strings of long comments, you lose context and become enmeshed in figuring who is saying what to who. Everything becomes critical of the original posting and therefore it is very hard to figure out what is being critiqued. An example of this is the beginning of this thread where "Thornton" begins it with "Are you going to fetch him Nessie?" Nessie hadn't posted anything by then and to say anything about nessie at that point was just uncalled for unless this thing is out of order. Also to have scientific-type footnotes in the midst of insults and name-callign is just weird.
The second problem is the structural problem of this particular dialog. We are mixing subjects that belong in their threads. People feel very strongly about these problems in different ways and they becoming a mish-mosh. We are mixing the complex problems of 1)animals being tortured versus human health, 2) Whether the person(s) who did a bombing of a capitalist business (which some of us believe is doing reprehensible things and others do not) should have the power of the state used to attmept to capture that person (3) how much people in the anarchist/radical community should cooperate with that "investigation", which interrelates with but is not the same as (4) What should be our cooperation level on the apprehension of a specific individual named as a suspect who may or may not have anything to do with the things the FBI claims he did, and (5) how much we discuss this situation in a public forum like indymedia, where even if the cops aren't reading it, the Freepers are. And in the middle of all this are non-sequitur postings and possibly some computer glitches.
Now for some substance: I think the beginning lines of this posting: "Don't speculate and don't coooperate with the FBI" should be our watchword no matter what else we believe about this subject. I think a by "any means neccessary" approach when it comes to the state doing things that we don't beileve they should have the power to do is just plain wrong. Putting people in jails for things we don't like just empowers the state. And they won't stop with animal rights people. Ask Sherman.
"Take him down" is wrong. Hoping the FBI incarcerates something is sick.
Lively says "San Diego is involved with the ALF." He doesn't know this. This specualtion is wrong. Being involved in animal rights is not the same as being of ALF, which being an underground group, does not publish a membership list.
As to "IMC" speaking for the Indy Media Center is wondeful but if nessie is correct and you are collective running by consensus, you are only speaking for yourself, and implying that you are speakign for an entire group is insulitng to others in the group. As for speculating on someone's motivations who can't be hear to defend himself. That is low and wrong.
I stand 100% with person who labels themself "sectarianism".Right on!

oh, i know i shouldn't continue w/ this, but:

according to nessie:
So don’t put other people’s business on the street, especially their real names, their addresses, their schedules, or anything else that could lead to them getting hurt. First and foremost, don’t do this to me. ...
If I want my business put on the street, I’ll put it there myself. Don’t put it there for me.

uh, please practice what you preach. i recall you putting real names of people and details about conversations w/ them on this site without their permission before.

Now for something on the last two about iberals and radicals. The perosn posting as "liberal ?" doesn't get it. He dosn't mention capitalism at all. Being against Capitalism, (the exploitaiton of people and the earth for profit) is what differentiates radicals from liberals, and its what differnetiates radicals and anarchists from right-wing Libertarians and Fascists. Radicals are against it. Liberals, right-wing libertarians and fascists are for it. All the rest is window-dressing, as you in your smarmy way show, by showing some alleged things that some of us have in common with fascists. These things aare important-I think people should have the right to guns to protect themselves and to shoot capitalists. I am against the U.N. because its mainly a group of capitalist nation-states. I hate the people some of you would call Communists, because they exploited the workers and the earth for profit of the nomenclatura (the bureaucrats-which began under Lenin). I believe that anyone "controlling" the media is wrong, be they Zionists, Jews , Wasps, Nazis or your friends..
Liberals are the soft -face of Capitalism and its state. I want blow the whole body off the face of the earth so we cna beign the hard process of creating a society and world we can be proud of.

Capitalism exists at several levels.

There are multinational corporations that operate like small governments. The internal economy of an MNC looks like a dictatorial state run economy in almostg all respects (the board of director and CEO have ultimate power and free market forces don't come into play when many transactions are internal). MNCs tend to love things like the WTO, the UN and anything that opens new markets (including trade with Cuba and they were opposed to the restrictions on Iraq). They dont like taxes but are rather liberal socially since the more possible employees and the more possible customers the better.

There are midsized businesses that dont really need things like the WTO, the UN and the like. More midsized businesses are owned by individuals and therefore more personal politics can come into play. Midsized businesses are able to back controversial causes (left and right) since they dont depend on the international public opinion needed by MNCs. While large a Clearchannel or Coors would fit in this category.

Small familly owned businesses make up a rather seperate category. Immigrants who arrive in the US with pooled resources may buy a corner store, motel or restaurant with all of their savings and perhaps hire only a small number of familly members to help out. Working conditions at small businesses are often the worst of all business types since many rules dont apply. Not only are wages low but many empoloyees of these businesses will work illegal 15 hour days with subminimum wages. They are almost impossible to unionize yet they are also the the least despised by everyone since the have little political power (although such businesses will often be behind things like the Newsom campaign against the homeless).

"Ending Capitalism" seems like it requires ending all three of the above mentioned business types. And there are seperate issues with each. After a revolution do you march into every corner store and tell them, they are free? After the revolution do you emancipate the workers at IBM by laying them off? ( http://www.theonion.com/3939/news1.html) A revolution from above can easilly take over big companies and make them state or worker run but what about small and medium sized businesses? This was a problem in the former USSR and Lenin even supported them for a time. Capitalism is more than an economic system, its a cultural thing; in Iraq after the US took out the government street vendors and small businesses went along as normal buying and selling what they could and trying to trade for enough food to survive.

You can say liberals are for Capitalism and radicals are against it, but saying that has little real meaning. Radicals are just as likely as liberals to contribute to Capitalism in their daily lives (with liberals being more likely to become professionals and radicals being more likely to start or work for startups) Belief in a future better world without actions that can lead in that direction is similar to Christians talking about a future world without greed (and money being the root of all evil) I'd bet that aside from Socialists, radicals are if anything less likely than liberals to be active organizing at their workplaces. From what I've seen of Bay Area activists, the only difference between the self proclaimed liberals and radicals is that the radicals are more self rightous and full of hate (this thread seems like a great example). Many radicals seem to live in a world of "good guys" and "bad guys"; since Capitalism is a structure that doesnt require ideological support, the lack of visible bad guys gives way to roaming hatreds directed one minute at one group and the next minute at something new. Since the anger never seems to get anyone anywhere (the radical left has been shrinking for years and has had few major victories in decades) the anger is often turned inward resulting purges and paranoia.

"I spend at least an hour a day, often two or three, sometimes four or five, and occasionally eight or ten, doing technical administrative stuff. The part of it that you can see are the hidden posts"

The thing is you are also the main person who creates flame wars with the right. If you didnt hide or post, the site might not look much different from what it looks like now (half of the spam is about you so thats doesnt seem that unreasonable a thing to assume). Many other Indymedias dont seem to have the constant editorial activity and do pretty well. If you dont like spending so much time working on hiding things and posting comments you can always stop. You shouldnt use you dislike for hiding to deny the community input on how this site is run.

The readers of this site shouldnt have to justify their existence anymore than the listeners of KPFA. If you dislike a show and call in to express your concern I doubt someone would yell at you to "shut the fuck up" since they own the station and you dont do work for it. WIth SF Indymedia its not like the content is created by members of a collective; most content comes from the community so calling the site yours seems a little ridiculous. In fact its seems arogant enough that it could reduce the number of good posts to the site; if the site doesnt respect the work going into long posts why bother writing them, taking pictures or editing video?

This same debate can be found at just about every IMC out there that is active, even though you claim (wrongly) that this kind of stuff isn't discussed elsewhere.

In fact, debates about flamewars and who starts them and who prolongs them and etc can be found on just about any BBS-style environment from 1986 on. I'm not surprised to find them on this Indymedia or any other one. Congratulations for carrying on a fine tradition that many message board critics have carried on for years -- although it is refreshing that its about leftist topics rather than Star Trek or Amiga vs. PC ...

To whose indymedia:

The keyword is "listeners" ... why would the listeners have to justify anything besides occasional call-ins?

I think the point is that indymedia is not first and foremost a content creator, it is first and foremost a content infrastructure. And just like KPFA, or the Associated Press, or any other halfway coherent network of content producers (whatever their involvement), there are levels of involvement.

I think an analogy is the community bulletin board you can find in Berkeley, near Berkeley Bowl. Go and try putting up an anti-affirmative action poster there or what have you. It will be removed, and it even says on there that they will remove things that don't fit in there. The key there is that the people providing the infrastructure (the bulletin board) are reasonably expected to reduce signal-to-noise and ultimately have discretion about what that means.

The respect given to those who post determines the quality of the posts. Nobody is going to spend much time working on text and pictures to go on a single public bulletin board where the posted item will get covered over in a few days and maybe read by only one or two people. This board mainly gets reposts since few people would really want to waste time writing something to a board where its a 50-50 shot that something will end up on the top newswire and a one in ten shot that there will actually ever be a link on the front page. Having more censorhips and highlighting better written material could help but it doesnt help when its merely a guess on the part of the poster if what they wrote will get recognized.

Most Indymedias have had this type of stuff posted to the sites. Usually its from the right with editors having to argue why a neoNazi thing was hidden here and a prowar thing hidden there. On this site things have goten a little stranger with self identified editors taking more specific political stands (antianimal rights and antiCommunist). Self identified editors on this site have been much more willing to post as editors with statements about how certain views are stupid, how certain activists are terrorists or with generally rude and patronizing remarks. If havent seen the same thing on other Indymedia sites from self identified editors (also you rarely see a single editor dominate threads as much as they do in this site). Using editorial power to bully people and telling left wing critics to shut up since they are guests is far different than hiding a proWar or Nazi screed.

"A comment by "Ayn Randite" was removed because"

I didnt post it but someone just reposted an interesting thing from a local paper that called for antiterror laws to be used against activists. I think knowing that local papers are publishing such things is important and its pretty obvious that whoever posted that was trying to show how animal rights and environmental groups are being attacked by the media.

I think this is a good example of the problem with editors on this site. Why was this comment hidden? Was it because the editor didnt take time to read the post and realize that it was mainly pointing out how far right local papers have moved? Or did they hide the comment because it attacked people attacking animal rights groups and since the editors hate animal rights activists the comment wasnt allowed?

Its pretty weird that comment was hidden considering it was one of the few on topic posts and was clearly attacking the dangers of the Patriot Act!

In fact, these problems do happen at other IMCs and I'm always suspicious of people who present a "sky is falling" type argument. For instance, the editorial "scandal" at NYC IMC regarding Latuff's cartoons (or, for that matter, the enormous scandals regarding them at Swiss and Germany IMCs) far outweigh anything I've seen at SF-IMC. Other examples come to mind about Indymedia debates over editorial control, who is an editor, and censorship -- like what led to the global IMC site switching to two newswires, or Chuck0's endless crusades, or the lengthy arguments regarding "anarchoprimitivist" censorship that was happening at Eugene IMC, etc etc etc etc etc.

Most of these things are much larger in proportion to what you seem to have a problem with, which is someone involved with SF-IMC who is also an active commenter with opinions.

The animal rights people I know talk about Nessie, are disgusted with Nessie, etc, but that doesn't really prevent them from posting things here or using the site. If anything, the hardline animal rights people are used to this kind of treatment, even from groups like PETA or other mainstream activist groups. If Indymedia is supposed to be a pan-leftist website, then some form of healthy debate is to be expected.

The right-wing also has this sort of debate, but I'd say it is far more censored than anything we do. Witness the intense censorship on Free Republic, where even people from a right-wing orientation who merely *question* George Bush post-911 were censored, by one man without any review whatsoever.

I would suggest that maybe you have an unnatural fixation with this that stems from other problems. Ultimately, letting imc-sf-editorial know this via email is the most proactive way of doing something about it, instead of posting divisive comments anonymously on this extremely controversial article.

Actually, we've had 2 people I know of who have invested a lot of time in removing articles or spam. It becomes somewhat of a passion and obsession for people. One of them was also a programmer and spent a lot of time coding things to prevent repeat spam or to get rid of certain spammers like SmashTheLeft. It could be argued that STL had some good points here or there but ultimately the decision was made to delete anything that could reasonably be assumed was coming from STL, and a handful of other people who were supposedly helping STL. This led to a lot of the same accusations --- as people were assumed to be STL, and their comments started getting hidden automatically, and then this became an endless on-going drama and etc.

But even with this other person, there was a lot of deeply strange logic involved with what got taken away. For instance, what if it was an anti-Israel article posted by an assumed leftist? What if it was an anti-Israel article posted by an assumed right-wing person pointing out something which was valid? What if it was an anti-Israel article that was posted by an assumed leftist but we suspected it was posted by a right-winger to discredit left-wing things? and so on and so on and so on. What if removing certain things encourages people to post even more? What if we don't remove it and it encourages them to post even more?

I never really got so involved in these things, but I did have interactions with the 2 people who had obsessed over fighting spam or taking off articles.

indymedia is politically repressive!!!

Actually, we've had 2 people I know of who have invested a lot of time in removing articles or spam. It becomes somewhat of a passion and obsession for people.- s/f indy staff

If you want to know the comments about "elitist" in IMC
It's because there is a lot of people talking in the collective house anarchist scene about IMC which I have witnesed.
I find it quite stupid because it sounds like personal fights which are twisted to be political ones.

But I do not take it with more than a grain of salt It is from the same group who Hate everyone that crosses them at a party or doesnt date them if they want where social standing in their tiny clubs is more important than Solidarity.
It is the same People who say I am ruinging them for missing my rent once or twice at a collective house or Ally Star is a bitch for going out with someone they dont like
I find it distrubing.

The Chronicle's only op-ed today was by an Ayn Randite who advocates using extreme state power to terminate environmentalists before they commit terrorism. I wonder if they would ever consider printing a similarly lunatic article from a 'left' circle, like someone in the rainbow family or someone in the RCP:
HOMELAND SECURITY
Under attack -- by eco-terrorists

Elan Journo Sunday, October 12, 2003

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As we confront terrorism abroad, we must recognize the deadly threat posed by a homegrown source -- one that since 1997 has been responsible for more than 600 attacks and has inflicted more than $100 million in property damage. The attacks have become bolder and fiercer. In August, a 206-unit apartment complex near San Diego was firebombed, resulting in $50 million in damage. In the Bay Area, an animal rights group called Revolutionary Cells claimed responsibility for bombings at Chiron in August and at Shaklee last month.

It is time that we reflect on the scale of the danger we face -- and the ideology behind that menace.

From Alabama to Michigan, from Pennsylvania to California, underground cells of eco-terrorists have been waging a campaign of tree spiking, industrial sabotage, arson and bombing. Last year, the most prominent eco- terrorist group, the Earth Liberation Front, proudly claimed responsibility for more than 130 attacks.

What is their goal? According to ELF, our Westernized way of life "comes at the expense of ... the natural environment." By seeking a safer, longer, happier life -- by seeking more than a bare, primitive subsistence -- mankind, they say, is guilty of crimes against nature. Accordingly, they wish "to inflict economic damage on those profiting from the destruction and exploitation of the natural environment," hoping eventually "to speed up the collapse of industry."

Eco-terrorists have consistently targeted these "exploiters" -- from timber companies, to land developers, to science researchers. In the most notorious of their actions, in Vail, Colo., in 1998, the ELF burned down part of a ski resort, causing $12 million in property damage. The attack was mounted, the group said, on behalf of the wildlife whose habitat was being trespassed upon.

Last year, nine new homes in Phoenix were firebombed because they were deemed, by eco-terrorists, to be encroaching on the natural desert. Two years ago, to protest the existence of Huntingdon Life Sciences, a British animal- research lab, "animal-liberationist" goons blew up several cars belonging to the firm's employees and severely beat the company's managing director with baseball bats.

These militants are alarmingly brazen. Gloating in a tone redolent of Osama bin Laden's post-Sept. 11 videos, the ELF has published a meticulous, 47- page report of its self-described illegal activities. The attacks are listed by region, date, tactics used and damage caused.

There are even mock awards for the "most impressive" attacks and "most vehicles damaged in a single action." To spur further violence, the group's Web site offers a free illustrated manual on "Setting Fires With Electrical Timers" (along with advice on what to do if an FBI agent comes knocking).

Yet, astonishingly, little has been done to stop the eco-terrorists. Some have been caught and even brought before grand juries, but few have been punished. In February 2002, the House Resources Subcommittee held a hearing on eco-terrorism, but nothing came of it: The main witness, an ELF spokesman, refused to answer most of the questions. Meanwhile, the attacks, both large and small, continued last year at an average pace of one every four days.

These people are not mere vandals. They declare that they do not "consider the destruction of property ... to be committing violence" if done for the sake of nature. It is just a matter of time before they extend their rabid rationalizations to the killing of human beings.

The eco-terrorists hate the system of capitalism and industrialization because it leads us, properly, to regard nature as only a means to satisfy man's wishes. They are driven by an ideology that regards human life as dispensable whenever it impedes their goal of keeping nature untouched. With every dam he constructs, every house he erects and every shovelful of soil he removes, man is denounced for raping the Earth and murdering the eco-system. The eco-terrorists want to stop all such activities -- by whatever means necessary.

Our inaction is emboldening eco-terrorists. We dare not wait for eco- terrorists, motivated by their own nihilistic ideology, to mount further attacks. They must be stopped by the force of government, now.

----

Thats pretty scary!

[Im reposting this even though I didnt post it the first time. Please dont hide this as it was hidden before; it shows where the repression is comming from and is important for people to know the Chronicle is calling for a crackdown on activists. If someone has a link to this on the Chrons site that would be good I only had a chance to repost what was hidden earlier]

New Evidence Found In Animal Rights Bombing Case
Main Suspect Still Thought To Be In Bay Area

POSTED: 8:41 a.m. PDT October 13, 2003
UPDATED: 9:35 a.m. PDT October 13, 2003

SAN FRANCISCO -- FBI agents say they found bomb-making supplies inside the car of Daniel San Diego after he ditched the vehicle in San Francisco. San Diego is an animal rights advocate suspected in two recent bombings in the East Bay.

Agents were following him at the time, but say he somehow slipped away.

The FBI says it believes he still may be in the Bay Area.

http://www.nbc11.com/news/2550431/detail.html

Remember you don't have to say anything to the FBI or any law enforcement official personnel. If they come to your door, you do not haveto tak to them. If you wish, you can tell them to talk to your atttorney. If they do come to your door or stop you, you should notify the National Lawyers Guild in San Francisco at 415-285-1055. If you do not have one they can help you find one. If they have a search warrant or arrest warrant, do not elt them til you see it and make sure it has on it, the exact placer to be searched. If you can't fend them off, follow them around while they are doing the search, and note exacxtly what they do. Theere's more specifics that people should know but this is the basics.

I hope that guy can slip away. There's enough undocumented immigrants in this country that I wonder why so many suspects are caught on 'america's most wanted' type lists.

Nessie's editing is mostly fine, in my opinion. I think that people here are disagreeing with 1% of his calls, because do you really want all that stuff on the hidden posts area on the newswire? I think it would make the site unusable. There are lots of other people at sf.indymedia but he is just the chatty one, and I think people should separate his comments from his editing. I see a heck of a lot of conservative comments by people who seem unfamiliar with the site, and they don't get edited out - check Schwarzenegger stories for republicans laughing at us. Some other imcs have very few newswire stories except ones that a few people post to all the IMCs, and others like Seattle get filled with spam really quickly, so it's impossible to keep track with response to yesterday's news items.
sf.imc is one of the only with a latest comments page, which really defines this site.

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- A growing militant movement opposed to genetic engineering in agriculture and medicine is turning to sabotage -- from the bombing of a biotech company to the destruction of genetically modified crops.

As a result, targeted companies are taking extra security precautions and also often altering business strategies. The violence, which the FBI says suddenly became more serious this year, stems in part from frustration that peaceful protests have failed to slow the pace of biotech's progress.

"We've seen a drastic escalation in the use of violent tactics in the past year," said Phil Celestini, head of the FBI's domestic terrorism unit in Washington.

A range of militant environmental, economic and animal-rights activist groups have used the Internet to organize around biotechnology, first in Europe and now in the United States. Many fear the technology will forever harm nature while others object to how animals are treated in drug experiments.

A 25-year-old Californian, Daniel Andreas San Diego, is wanted by the FBI in connection with some of the most recent attacks: the bombings in August of the Bay-area biotech company Chiron Corp. and last month of a nearby cosmetics manufacturer. Aside from a few shattered windows, little damage was done to either company.

The group that claimed responsibility for the blasts, the previously unheard of Revolutionary Cells, vowed more bombings were to come.

Other anti-biotech attacks this year include the vandalism of a Chiron executive's car and the trashing of a biology lab at Louisiana State University last month.

In France, an estimated half of the 100 plots of experimental biotech crops were destroyed this year, prompting some 1,500 scientists, including two Nobel laureates, to demand an end to the vandalism.

Genetically modified crop experimentation in Britain is also in danger due to sabotage and political opposition.

"Peaceful protests aren't ending the suffering," said Danielle Matthews, a spokeswoman for Stop Huntingdon Animal Cruelty, an animal rights group that supports property destruction but not human injury. The group has waged a four-year harassment campaign to shut down the Lawrenceville, N.J., laboratory of Huntingdon Life Sciences, a company that tests drugs and chemicals on animals for companies including biotech firms.

"The companies say they care when they're faced with nonviolent protesters and then do nothing," Matthews said. "Maybe the companies will start caring when they have to pay to replace a few windows."

Almost since James Watson and Francis Crick discovered DNA 50 years ago, scientists have been exploring ways to manipulate and exploit those building blocks of life for everything from boosting crop yields to germ warfare.

But questions didn't arise about biotechnology's safety and impact on nature until San Francisco-area scientists Herb Boyer and Stanley Cohen succeeded 30 years ago in splicing genes from one species into another. Since then, opposition to biotechnology research, first in agriculture and later in medicine, has grown, especially in Europe.

Chiron spokesman John Gallagher said attacks on the company, including the alleged unauthorized use of an executive's credit card, haven't changed the way the company does business.

But there is evidence that these "direct action" campaigns are having an effect on other companies.

The accounting firm Deloitte & Touche severed its ties with Huntingdon earlier this year because of harassment of its employees. Huntingdon itself moved its headquarters from the United Kingdom to Baltimore last year because of increasing violence against it.

In Britain, Bayer CropSciences said it no longer will plant experimental plots of genetically engineered crops because the government has declined to keep the locations confidential.

Bayer was the last company carrying out such trials in the United Kingdom. Other agricultural biotech companies had previously pulled out because such experimental plots were routinely destroyed by protesters.

And the biotech company Biogemma is contemplating leaving France because its experimental crops keep getting destroyed.

http://www.kron.com/Global/story.asp?S=1482414