Correction: Counterpunch Event at Berkeley, SUNDAY, Oct. 19: Is anti-Zionism anti-Semitic?

So, JA, tell us

by just wondering Wednesday October 08, 2003 at 05:59 PM

was that you who spammed us, or was that an imposter?

@%<

I bet nessie ("just wondering") knows full well it was JA in the flesh that was spamming his site.

The question was kind of like when a father cools down after calmly dealing with his favorite son losing his temper and hurling lots of paper made airplanes at him, and then asks the son: "did you feel better now?"

This website which allows the term "zionazi" to exist, Alexander Cockburn who has never met a Jew he liked because they are Zionists to him. Cockburn has been spewing the same anti-Jewish sentiment for decades. It is very sad the left believes him.

Should the term islamofascist be tolerated?

Well how would you describe the islamic states? They're all run by dictators/kings/fascists/monarchs.

The left has aliented literally 99.9% of the jewish world.

The left has decided that any jew who doesn't want israel to be dismantled is a racist, yet when jews ask why THe Left isn't also demaning that the racist arab states be dismantled, they say something like "see, the zionists always try to change the subject."

THe left are now modern-day, politically correct nazis.

Only this time they've found a small handful of jews to agree with them.

Israel was the Jewish homeland before, and it's the Jewish homeland once again. Personally, I don't even want it to exist, because then every time any member of israel's government ever does anything wrong, the fucking anti-semites of the world trumpet it and highlight it and use it as an example of what "the jews" or "the zionists" do. But, Israel formed for noble reasons, and it's here to stay, and the only people who want to see it destroyed are: (1) islamic fundamentalists, (2) a tiny handful of friggin nutcase jews and (3) The "peace" activists on the Left who also seem to worship the ground arab terrrorists walk on because they hate capitalist america.

Really, the world is doomed.

"Alexander Cockburn who has never met a Jew he liked"

You mean like the two (three?) Jews that he is on the program with, Jeffrey Blankfort, Lenni Brenner, Scott Handelman? You mean like Norman Finkelstein, Ed Herman, Noam Chomsky, Phyllis Bennis, Adam Shapiro, or locally Dennis Bernstein, Joel Beinin, Baraba Lubin, Steve Zeltzer, Ralph Schoenman, Rob Lipton, Osha Newman, and other anti-Zionist Bay Area Jews? You mean that Cockburn just hates all Jews, regardless? Is that the 'comforting' belief of yours that allows you to sleep at night, rather than to deal with Cockburn's arguments and those on his panel, or of the pertinent contributors to his journal or his new book?

You, "Jewish Girl", have you met any Palestinians that you like?

"...and want the Jewish homeland..."

Oh give us a propaganda break. We're tired of hearing it.

What about the Aryan homeland for Arab Muslims in Saudi Arabia and Sudan and Iran (to name only the full blown theocracies)?
What propaganda?

Hope you don't consider Israel a theocracy like many dumbhead fringe lunatic leftists do. Israel is perhaps 1/8 theocratic. I for one am sick of reading and hearing ignorant idiots calling Israel a theocratic Apartheid state.

"What about the Aryan homeland for Arab Muslims...?"

What about Zionists changing the subject?

An ad hominem is not a rebuttal.
Resoting to ad hominems is counterproductive in a discussion and may provoke a counterattack.

You were subtly trying to change the subject by inserting the white supremacist (Aryan) notion where it doesn't belong. Kindly answer the question about Arab homelands or quit complaining.

NORMAL PERSON: You realize that in Egypt, committing gay acts is punishable by death, or exile, right? While in Israel it's legal to be gay, gays have a pride parade in israel, people's individual choices are respected.

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: Why do the jews like shooting arabs in the head????????? Zionism is evil!!!!!!

NORMAL PERSON: You realize that in Saudia Arabia, women aren't allowed to even drive cars or work in public places, let alone have important jobs, while in Israel women are free to do whatever, and in fact, Israel has had a woman as a prime minister - the top position in the entire country.

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: Zionism is racist and evil and racist and discriminatory zionazis are evil israel is bad it's israel's fault!

NORMAL PERSON: You realize that in many muslim countries, it's illegal for a married woman to cheat on her husband, and sometimes women have been raped, and the rapist has been caught, yet the woman was raped gets flogged because the law says that she cheated on her husband.

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: the zionists occupation is trying to take over the whole world, that is why arabs do that, it's the zionists!!!!

NORMAL PERSON: Israel offered peace agreements with every arab country. Egypt and Jordan accepted, and Israel honored it fully and proved that when given real peace, Israel is a terrific partner. But Syria still refuses to recognize that Israel should be left alone, Palestinians have had ONE LEADER this whole time who fought with other arabs just as much as he fought with Israel. Israel is obviously willing to make peace, Egypt and Jordan can confirm they have honored everything.

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: zionists don't want peace, they want war!

NORMAL PERSON: Then why has Israel offerd peace to everyone, repeatedly, for many years, and 2 arab countries agreed, and Israel accepted, and it's worked out fine, with both sides honoring their agreements?

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: Zionists want to take over the earth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Israel loves to kill!

NORMAL PERSON: Why is it that to this day, it's illegal to be a jewish citien of saudia arabia, yet in Israel the citizens are allowed to practice whatever religion they want, and there are arab muslims in israel's government, democratically elected by 100% of israel's citizens, as we speak? Shouldn't people who are against racial or religious discrimination note this extremely vast difference?

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: Sharon is worse than hitler! Damn zionazis!!!!!!!!

NORMAL PERSON: It seems that Israel's main demand in return for ending hte occupation all these years has been that Israel receive peace and security. That seems like a reasonable request. Year after year, as that request was rejected, it kind of makes sense that Israel set up additional areas of control, to ward off people who reject the peace offers and just keep attacking.

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: Israel doesn't want peace, they may say it, and they may honor it with the arab countries who actually give it to them, but, errr, uhhhhhh, screw the zionists!!!!!!!!!!!!

NORMAL PERSON: In Algeria and some nearby countries, don't they still practice forced female circumcision? That's a sick practice forced upon women.

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: Israel shuldn't exist, then there woudl be no need to carve up women's private parts!!

NORMAL PERSON: Israel has freedom of the press. That's why some newspaper articles agree with government moves, others disagree. That's why different voices are heard. But in most arab/muslim countries, the government has 100% control of the media, and no dissenting views are allowed.

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: Zionists just pretend to have freedom of the press, it's all a lie, open your eyes!!!

NORMAL PERSON: It's strange how peopole blame Ariel Sharon for the current problems, when the fact is that Palestinians began their latest intiafa, and MONTHS LATER, in response, Ariel Sharon was elected into office to deal with it.

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: Always in response, that's what they always say!

NORMAL PERSON: But, it usually is a case of Israel responding if you actually look at the facts. The fact is, Israel had made a state offer, it wasn't a perfect offer but it was a start, and at the time they made it Arafat was in control of almost all of Palestinian land, and instead of taking time to discuss it, to work with Israel as well as the international community and to keep going in the direction of peace, Arafat rejected even the discussion of it, and soon after, Palestinians began their intifada, and MONTHS LATER, Ariel Sharon was elected into office. So, the fact is, Sharon WAS a response to the intifada.

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: Sharon caused the intifada by walking to some important buildings, he's a mad killer, he's insane!

NORMAL PERSON: If he's insane, then when palestinians attack Israel, how come Ariel Sharon doesn't just lob giant bombs into Palestinian towns and kill thousands at a time? Logic suggests that Israel sending troops in to go after terrorist organizations, risking their own lives to guard towns and go after groups that are attacking, shows they are trying to be responsible. Irresponsible would be to kill thousands each day, which Ariel Sharon could do if he wanted to.

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: Ariel Sharon can't do that because then he would be revealed for the killer that he is!!!!

NORMAL PERSON: So, the fact is, Ariel Sharon hasn't done it, so you're calling him a mad killer for something he hasn't done?

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: But he would!

NORMAL PERSON: How do you know that? The fact is, Sharon hasn't done it. What he has done is demand that Palestinians cease their terrorist attacks, and in return, he would discuss settling this issue.

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: Sharon is a mad killer, even if he hasn't actually killed! He's a zionist, they're all killers!

NORMAL PERSON: So, people who don't kill, they're killers?

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: Yes!

NORMAL PERSON: Hasn't the Palestinian intifada been really self-destructive? Attacking Israel, who was offering peace, and is much more heavily armed than the Palestinians, doesn't seem smart. Yet Palestinians keep doing it, refuse to call off their intifada, and then complain that they're losing the battle. Is that accurate?

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: Yes! Well, no! I mean, yes! Errr, you're just spewing pro-Israel propaganda!

NORMAL PERSON: It appears I'm telling the truth, based on observing what's actually happening.

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: You are a racist zionist and I won't fall for your tricks!

NORMAL PERSON: What?

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: zionism is racism!

NORMAL PERSON: zionism means the support of the existence of Israel. In Israel, there are citizens of almost every race on earth. There are arabs, non-arabs, jews, non-jews in the government.

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: Israel is an apartheid state! That's why they attack the Palestinians, they want to wipe out all the arabs!

NORMAL PERSON: What? The fact is, every Israeli citizen of every race and every religion has an equal vote, and can run for office. What are you talking about?

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: Zionists want to kill arab babies!!!!

NORMAL PERSON: You keep saying "zionists." Do you realize that zionism is just the support of the existence of Israel as a jewish homeland? Zionists aren't Israelis, necessarily. Zionists are anyone, anywhere, of any race or religion, who simply support the existence of Israel. Zionists don't necessarily agree with everything Israel does. People disagree. People have different ideas. But to be a "zionist" just means you want Israel to not be taken over and the jews wiped out or overthrown, something arab countries tried repeatedly to do. So when you yell about "the zionists" do you even know who you're yelling about? There are black non-religious circus midgets in alaska, and if they support israel as a jewish homeland, they're zionists.

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATICS: crush the zionists, freedom for all! No to racism!

NORMAL PERSON: What?

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: You heard me! Israel violates UN resolutions!

NORMAL PERSON: Actually, the UN resolutions against Israel are what are called "non-binding." Look it up. I'll assume you don't know what that means. It means that the resolutions are basically statements that express the view of the majority of the UN. Meaning, the UN has not ordered Israel to do anything. The UN has merely stated their view. It's an expression of an opinion, basically. Furthermore, have you noticed that the UN has singled Israel out while not saying a word about much worse stuff elsewhere? For example, I assume you are aware that China's occupation of Tibet has lasted longer than Israel's occupation of Palestinians. And when the occupations began for both, a lot more people were in Tibet. And, Tibet wasn't trying to destroy China, but China occupied them anyway. But Palestinian leaders were calling for Israel's destruction, so Israel occupied. Also, China has stamped out the ancient culture of Tibet, wiping out most of their holy sites. Israel, meanwhile, has preserved all muslim holy sites. And while Israel has repeatedly tried to negotiate the end of the occupation in exchagne for peace that has not yet come, China has never offered to end the occupation. China turned Chinese into Tibet's language, while wiping our their culture. Why do I bring all this up? Not to say that two alleged wrongs make an alleged right. I bring it up because, while the UN has made COUNTLESS resolutions condemning Israel, they have NOT MADE A SINGLE resolution against China for what they've done. Does that seem fair to you?

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: Well it serves the zionists right?

NORMAL PERSON: In fact, the UN said and did nothing about massacres in Africa that killed hundreds of thousands, the UN didn't do anything against Saddam for what he did to the Kurds or his own people, the UN has said very little about anything, anywhere, but year after year has singled Israel out while ignoring equal or much worse events elsewhere. This has gone on for 50 years now.

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: Jews are cheap and liars!

NORMAL PERSON: What?

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: Sorry, I didn't say that, I meant "the zionists have fooled you!"

NORMAL PERSON: Isn't it strange how if Jews try to live in the West bank or gaza, they are called "illegal settlers," yet in Israel, almost 20% of the population are muslim, and yet they have citizenship of the country?

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: That's arab land, Jews have no right to be there!

NORMAL PERSON: So, you just admitted that you are in support of preventing a race or religion from living in one land, yet you demand that the owners of the other land not only give full equality to everyone, but also do favors for those who are trying to destroy the country?

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: There you go with your propaganda again!

NORMAL PERSON: You mean, my logic? If it's ok for Saudia Arabia to keep 100% of it's citizenship muslim, while Israel allows it's citizens to practice whatever religion they choose, why are we still attacking Israel for NOT doing what other countries right nearby ARE doing?

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: There you go again! Zionist-supporting madmen always try to change the topic!

NORMAL PERSON: It appears you want to single Israel out for everything under the sun, even when all you have to do to find infinitely worse behavior is point at the map and move your finger 2 inches in any direction.

NORMAL PERSON: I think the solution is for Palestinians to get a new leadership, made up of responsible, civil moderates who are not islamic extremists, and to work with them to stamp out Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists will never stop attacking Israel regardless of what Israel does, and once the Palestinian populations are under control, help support those moderate leaders and guide Palestine into becoming a responsible state. If the current terrorists who have run Palestine for 40 years are allowed to control the state, then once it's a strong state they'll probably just go right back to attacking Israel, resulting in a giant war, which no one should want.

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: Israel must end the occupation today, give "right of return" for all Palestinians, pay them for all the trouble they've had, and give up their zionist dream!

NORMAL PERSON: But if Israel gives a "right of return" for palestinians, and a few million palestinians flood into Israel, Israel would no longer be a jewish state, jews would be a minority, and with tens of thousands of those palestinians being hamas and islamic jihad members, the jews of israel would probably be wiped out, or forced to flee.

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: So? That's fair!

NORMAL PERSON: How in heck is that fair?

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: It's fair! Stomp out racism, end zionism, freedom for all!

NORMAL PERSON: So your idea of freedom means Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and a few million Palestinians who want to destroy Israel being allowed to move into Israel so they can wipe out the Jews there and take over?

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: I am for fairness and equality, no racism!

NORMAL PERSON: If you demand that Palestinians who once lived in Israel be given homes and payment for what they lost, will you also demand that Jews who once lived in two dozen arab countries be given homes and payment for what they lost? The FACT is, there were hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who once lived in Israel and no longer do, and there were ALSO hundreds of thousands of Jews who once lived in arab countries but had to flee for safety to Israel. If you are going to demand that one set of refugees be compensated, shouldn't you demand that both sides of refugees be compensated.

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: No, because I really just hate the jews, errr, uhhhhh, I didn't mean that, I meant I'm anti-zionist, down with zionism, up with israel being destroyed, that's fair, ummm, you're twisting my words, cease your propaganda! Israel shoudln't even exist, it was formed violently!

NORMAL PERSON: Do you realize that there was violence in the formation of almost every country on earth?

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: There may be violence, but not from foreign invaders!

NORMAL PERSON: Actually, for decades Israel was being formed by peaceful jewish immigrants moving in and building up communities and towns, alongside and with muslims and arabs around. There was violence when the state was formed, but isn't that true of almost every country/state on this planet? Have you actually looked at how most countries on earth have been formed?

CRAZY ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: Israel has no right to exist, it was carved out of arab territories!

NORMAL PERSON: But, half of earth was carved out of pre-existing territories. Are you against Pakistan existing? Muslims already had a few dozen muslim countries, yet Pakistan was carved out of India. America was run by native american indians, do you also call for americans to leave america and go back to where they came from? How much history do you want to undo? It appears that Israel was formed by settling, building, growing, and then international recognition by pretty much the whole world, outside of arab countries, half of which were formed by european invasion and turned into official countries pretty much the same way.

CRAZY ISREAL-HATING LUNATIC: why do you keep changing the subject?!?!

NORMAL PERSON: Because I'm bringing historical and honest perspective into this. It appears you want to single Israel out for doing things that about half the world has done. Yet, you make no mention of the rest of the world. You just single Israel out, exaggerate their alleged wrongdoings, with no actual historical perspective or sense of reality whatsoever.

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: More propaganda. You watch fox news, don't you!

NORMAL PERSON: I watch everything. I also try to learn about everyplace. I try to have an educated, balanced perspective when analyzing things, so that my opinions have some validity. If you want to undo Israel, then if you apply the SAME STANDARDS across the globe, you'd probably undo about half the nations on this planet. That makes no sense.

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: You kill babies! Israel's settlements must cease!

NORMAL PERSON: The more Palestinians attack Israel, the more it appears Israel will allow more settlements. Israel offered to remove them in exchange for peace. But a terrorist intifada came instead. So, the settling continued. Anyway, as I said before, why is it that if Jews live in the West bank right now, they are called "illegal settlers," but Muslims who live in Israel right now maintain full citizenship?

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: I don't know, why does israel like to shoot children?

NORMAL PERSON: Most hamas terrorists are teenagers. Who can be called "children." If people attack you with guns, or rocks, or bombs, and you shoot them, is it fair to call you a "killer of children?" Why did Palestinians reject Israel's peace offers and send their children to attack heavily armed soldiers? Doesn't that seem irresponsible, dangerous and self-destructive?

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: Israel WANTS to shoot those kids!

NORMAL PERSON: Really? Then why aren't hundreds or thousands of those kids dying each day? Israel has the power to do that.

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: Zionists are killers!

NORMAL PERSON: So, the fact is, Israel is restrained to the point where instead of just wiping out hundreds or thousands at a time, they are going after members of terrorist groups who mingle with innocent people, and in street war where everyone from armed killers to kids with rocks are attacking Israeli soldiers, yet Israel has still resisted using massive force and massive casualties. So, the fact is, Israel barely kills compared to what they could do. SO, they're by definition, restrained. Yet, you say they aren't. Even though they are. Right?

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: Jews are greedy and want to steal the money of those children?

NORMAL PERSON: What?

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: Whoops, I meant that the zionists are greedy and want to kidnap the, ummm, errrrrr, there you go again using facts on me, that's not fair!

NORMAL PERSON: It appears that when Palestinians end their intiada, and can be represented by responsible human beings who genuinely want peace for both sides, Israel is willing to reward them by handing land control over and work towards the formation of a Palestinian state. Well, a second Palesitnian state. YOu realize that just 100 years ago, the "Palestinian territory" included Jordan, right? That's a fact. About 75% of the Palestinian territory was carved out and turned into transjordan, which became Jordan. THe majority of Jordan citizens are "Palestinians." That's a fact. So, really, the West bank and gaza will be a second Palestinian state.

CRAZED ISRAEL-HATING LUNATIC: STop it, you're confusing me. Jews run the world! Stop them and their zionist dreams!

NORMAL PERSON: HOpefully, someday, Palestinians are run by sane leaders, and terrorists can be stomped out. And hopefully Israel rewards those efforts by giving control over to those new responsible leaders. It makes no sense for Arafat, or anyone associated with Arafat, to gain control. Terrorism should not be rewarded. And if Palestinin leadership can be supported to the point where they can control Hamas terrorists, so Israel doesn't have to, then Israel will respond in kind, and a responsible, civil Palestinian state can be created. Israel will respond with kindness when it's possible and safe to do so. That is the future I hope for.

homophobia in Israel is institutionalized and you sure have to know it...

Wow, can you say "straw man"?

You're wrong.
In fact, Israel has one of the most progressive laws worldwide to protect gays' civil rights.

It's just too easy for you to hit your keyboard without having an idea what you're typing. You probably are one of those people who think "I talk, therefore I am".

Dear antibullshit,
Israel's tolerance of others surpasses human belief.
Israel grants equal rights to several thousand ( or maybe several ten thousand) or so gay Jews and possibly gay Arabs, while depriving millions of Palestinians in the refugee camps of normal living coditions. While we allow gays to parade down the streets of Tel Aviv, Palestinians who are marching for the right to have their homeland to be returned to them are beaten, arrested, or shot. While our Zionist regime does not discriminate against others on the basis of their sexual orientation, we see nothing wrong with making lives a living hell for the Palestinian people who live under our illegal occupation in the West bank and Gaza.
Just this morning our IDF stormtroopers raided the Rafah refugee camp and murdered six people, including an eight year old boy. We would never beat up a man for being gay, but we have no problem with killing a small boy and depriving his family of yet another child, just for being a Palestinians. We don't discriminate against gays, but Palestinians must be subjected to the hardships and possible danger by stopping at our checkpoints everyday, risking arrest or a beating from an IDF guard who has been trained by our government to hate and despise the non-Israelis in the Occupied Territories and is then forced to carry out these cruel orders.
Israel is kind and Israel respects you for who you are. Just as long as you are not a Palestinian.


Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist

Dear antibullshit,
Israel's tolerance of others surpasses my belief.
Israel grants equal rights to several thousand ( or maybe several ten thousand) or so gay Jews and gay Arabs, while it was mostly Arafat's regime has deprived millions of Palestinians in the refugee camps of normal living conditions. While gays parade down the streets of Tel Aviv elsewhere in Israel, Palestinians who are merely marching for the right to have what they and I consider their homeland to be returned to them are never intimidated by Israel so long as they don't start riots. While Israel does not discriminate against others on the basis of their sexual orientation, it sees nothing wrong with making lives a living hell for the Palestinian terrorists living in the disputed territories, the West Bank and Gaza.
Just this morning IDF troops (which I hate and brand "stormtroopers") raided the Rafah refugee camp and killed six people, including an eight year old boy (I love to lie and claim they were murdered). Israel would never beat up a man for being gay. What does this have to do with the Rafah camp incident today? A little boy was killed because he happened to be in the wrong place in the wrong time, but I like to lie and claim the Israeli soldiers are Nazi stormtroopers who murdered him in cold blood, depriving his family of yet another child, just for being a Palestinians. Seems like I don't have and honest bone in my entire body! Israel doesn't discriminate against gays for they aren't a security threat, but most Palestinians support their terrorists in many ways and must be subjected to the hardships and possible danger by stopping at checkpoints everyday, risking arrest, and for good measure I'll add a figment of my neo-Nazi infested imagination: a beating from an IDF guard who I'm sure has been trained by the Israeli government to hate and despise the non-Israelis in the so-called Occupied Territories and is then forced to carry out these cruel orders.
Israel is kind and Israel respects you for who you are. Just as long as you are not a Palestinian terrorist.


Heil Hitler!
- A concerned Zionist

I'll debate with you if you don't address me using your moronic style, impersonating imaginary Zionists in the most sick fashion which only reflects your own anti-Semitic bias.
It's funny that even a dirtbag like Windy Wendy is capable of engaging in a normal conversation but you lack the spine for it.

"answer the question about Arab homelands"

I am morally opposed to "a Jewish homeland" in Palestine. (So are many moral Jews.) Any part of that first, brief sentence you don't understand? The Europeans (including the Americans and the Canadians) have many homelands (and some very large countries): certainly they can give just one homeland, country, republic, province, canton or state to "the Jews" where Jews will be much much safer and presumably welcomed to assuage Western guilt. Let Zionists have their "Jewish homeland" in a Western homeland or country, if "a Jewish homeland" is so important to the West.

You finally got that?


(Incidentally, I don't care what kind of long, ranting screeds you type, "Int", another alias.)

Gee, I had a fun time impersonating a 'concerned Zionist'. I faked his post ( written on October Friday October 10, 2003 at 02:14 PM
) with a forgery I wrote on Friday October 10, 2003 at 02:40 PM.
My uncle in the Anti-Defamation League told me what to write, and then gave me money to go to the bar to get drunk and possibly to a police station if they catch me drunk driving like they did yesterday.
Impersonating others is fun when you have nothing to say! Hyuck! Hyuck! Hyuck!

It'll be a cold day in hell before I become your twin in any manner.
"Int" is another person; I don't use aliases.
Now to address your arguments:

bevie: "answer the question about Arab homelands"

bev: "I am morally opposed to "a Jewish homeland" in Palestine. (So are many moral Jews.) Any part of that first, brief sentence you don't understand? The Europeans (including the Americans and the Canadians) have many homelands (and some very large countries): certainly they can give just one homeland, country, republic, province, canton or state to "the Jews" where Jews will be much much safer and presumably welcomed to assuage Western guilt. Let Zionists have their "Jewish homeland" in a Western homeland or country, if "a Jewish homeland" is so important to the West.

You finally got that?"

MY REPLY:
you've dodged addressing my question and added for good measure some irrelevant trivia. The icing on your virtual cake was some mumbo-jumbo about giving Zionist Jews a state in a place other than Israel - a consequence of your illogical, false and immoral belief that historical Israel in its entirety is the ancestral Palestinian Arab homeland.
You knew that a direct answer addressing what I asked you would demolish your immoral and hypocritical one-sided viewpoint against a Jewish homeland while not being against Arab homelands.

bev is not off the mark as Hertzl suggested Uganda or south merica as being a promised land.and herzl was no antizionist by any means for that matter,,,

At a certain point he offered an alternative to the Land of Israel because it seemed to him he wouldn't be able to succeed in his efforts to either secure the consent of any world power of the time to agree with his plan of securing the land for Jewish national purposes, or to execute the plan itself.
Herzl was acting out of duress, so to speak.

Dear antibullshit,
What could you possibly mean, me impersonating a Zionist? I am a Zionist, you silly bulldozer driving maniac ( I say that with affection, you know). I fully support Ariel Sharon in his campaign of racism and occupation of Palestinian lands, and believe that Israel has a right to do whatever it wants, just like you do. We both try to convince others that Zionism is an aspect of the Jewish tradition and faith, and believe that anyone who disagrees is either a terrorist, a misinformed leftist, or an antisemite.
I am happy that you are capable of engaging in a normal and mature conversation with other people. Referring to people as ' Windy Wendy' and 'fucking moron' is a sign of Zionist courtesy at one of it's highest levels. Our victims should be happy when we change their posts or call them names, when we really feel like shooting them with plastic bullets or running over them with tanks.
Dear bullshit, like you, I am a loyal and true Zionist. You shouldn't hate me, we fight for the same fuhrer.

Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist

To "Concerned zionist:" Your routine is dishonest and old. Shut the fuck up.

To all the regular people here interested in progress, here's a good site with some decent ideas: http://www.peace-security.org.il/enghome.html

Zionism is supporting a Jewish homeland state existing.

Jews are a people. Judiasm is a religion, but "The Jews" for thousands of years have been a People. Jews are a nation. Israel is the homeland.

In 20, or 50, or 200 years, perhaps the arab world won't be so united against jews and against israel's very existence. When that happens, Israel can ease up and become the "perfect' democracy you guys demand it become. Until then, Israel must ensure it survives, and if that means controlling a few extra football fields worth of land that had been repeatedly used to attack it and to this day is led by people who want Israel gone, then fine.

Dear stfu,
I saw your site. Quite a fascinating idea. We 'separate' ourselves from the Palestinians while at the same time keeping most of our settlements on their land. So we steal a huge chunk of land until a 'responsible' leader will come amongst the Palestinians? Responsible in what way? Does stealing land like the Israeli government plans to do a qualification?
I love this website, dear stfu. Blaming people for our occupation of their homes, and then planning a 'peace action' which will take away even more of their land. This is as absurd as our Zionist ideology gets.

Heil Sharon!
- A concernedZionist

The Palestinians were living there before the Ottoman empire, they were there before the British one, they were there when the British carved Palestine and handed the west bank to Jordan and Gaza to Egypt.
They were there before the reoccupation of Palestine by violent Europeans and they do not need to justify their presence on their land by being docile, thank you very much!

Oh, so you're going to go back hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years in history, yet not mention that Jews have been living there since before muslims even existed?

Furthermore, 80% of what was "Palestine" is now Jordan.

Israel is the bulk of the REMAINING 20% or so.

Also, "Palestinians," if you're going to be historic, did not used to exclude Jews. Jews used to be "Palestinians" too.

And Jews, who have been living there for thousands of years, now control a whopping one eighth of 1% of the middle east. Oh no, somebody stop them!

"Palestinians," if you're going to be historic, did not used to exclude Jews. Jews used to be "Palestinians" too. and they lived in harmony with the Arab Christians and Muslims who still live as one together.
Some of the Jews that you mention, have since accepted the gospel as their truth and are Christians and others have embraced Islam as their truth.
Israelis have embraced securalism.
The Palestinians have been more than charitable in allowing Israelis to live on seventy eight percent of their ancestral territory, in return they expect to live on what is left.

It isn't "the Palestinians" letting "the Israelis" live there.

The "Palestinians" were both Jews and muslims.

80% of "Palestine" is now Jordan.

The Jews remaining (including those ethnically cleansed out of Jordan) kept building communities and eventually made their own state, called Israel.

Israel, however, was a jewish state. Arabs didn't like it, repeatedly tried to kill Israel off, but failed. Palestinians have not been "charitable" in letting Israel exist. There's been very little "charity" anywhere.

But yes, everyone should be allowed to live in peace.

Anyway, historically, the vast majority of "Palestine" (the name Romans changed Israel to after they booted the Jews out of the original Israel) is now JORDAN. There's your non-jewish Palestinian homeland.

The original Israel included all of Jordan, but whatever, that's just a fun fact on the side.

Dear stfu,
So you claim that since Israel 'won' the Gaza and West Bank by invading Egypt and Jordan, it therefore belongs to Israel. I like you Zionist idealism, fellow stormtrooper: if you want something and manage to steal it, you are the rightful owner. Kind of like a 'dog eat dog' world. Hitler used the same excuse when he invaded Poland- if I conquer and occupy a country, it belongs to me. I am happy that you take example from early Zionist-like historical figures, my friend.
As you well know, the attack on Egypt in 1967 was not a response to any Arab invasion. Israel struck first. The driver of the tank that fired the first shot was not an Arab, we know that, don't we?
Palestinian attacks on Israeli soldiers and civilians were responded to with Israeli attacks on refugee camps in the countries from which the guerrillas struck. The 19 years you mentioned saw a lot of terrorism against civilians, both from Palestinian guerrillas and our IDF soldiers. The thousands of Egyptian and later Jordanian soldiers who were killed in battle defending heir nations against the IDF played no role in these attacks.
It is worth noting that the intifada on 1987 was fought mostly with stones and molotov cocktails by the Palestinian civilians against our occupying troops. The IDF responded with chracteristic Zionist brutality, killing over a thousand people between 1987 and 1992 and torturing many more, years before the first suicide bomber entered Israel (1995 0r 1997, I'm not completely sure). Our own IDF boys were 'going crazy' themselves during that time, throwing prisoners out of helicopters and breaking the arms of children with their clubs. Civilians were turned out of their homes and were forced to pick raw sewage from gutters in the village of Kabatya, because the tire of an Israeli car was punctured with a nail on the road.
And now we are about to steal more land. The wheel of history continues to turn.
Dear stfu, you shouldn't be ashamed of your Zionist history. The truth is simple- Israel takes whatever it wants, and punishes those who resist. Israel is building a Zionist empire in the Middle East. We are helping create the IV Reich, dear stfu.
Don't try to make apologies for Zionist murderers. Be proud, they are the founding fathers and the most honest representatives of what Zionism is really about.

Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist

The argument that "Jordan is Palestine" and that the Palestinians have no rights in their homeland is fallacious and stupid. Yes, between 1920 and 1922, what is now the kingdom of Jordan was administered as part of the British Mandate of Palestine but that does not change the facts of Palestinian oppression west of the Jordan.

A perfect analogy could be made with the situation in Virginia in 1830. At that time, slaves were rebelling against the legal slave system in Virginia but, prior to 1787, what are now Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan and Wisconsin were the northwestern districts of Virginia. In that year, they were separated out to form the Northwest Territory. Under the Northwest Ordinance forming the new territory, slavery was banned north of the Ohio river ---

by the logic of the Zionist poster, one could have said that Nat Turner need not have rebelled because over 90% of Virginia was free territory -- if Blacks didn't want to be slaves, they should move to Wisconsin ...

"you've dodged addressing my question"

No. It's just that I don't even care about your question. It's inane, and irrelevant to a moral position on Palestine, and I'm not going to enter into a long debating club that you're trying to suck me into, with you, over it. Got that?

I thought that my copying, but explicitly, abruptly and clearly ignoring your inane question made all that clear. But, I guess that you, bevie, are too dum to notice.

and her immorality has been exposed.
Yes you did dodge addressing it. You did so because you're morally decripit, a grand hypocrite and actually morally bankrupt.
It was very relevant to the Palestinian Israeli conflict, very intelligent, but it makes you feel very uneasy, so you do your utmost to evade it.
Every time you post something on this site, you enter a debating club. Your opponent/s won't go away just because you wish so, capice?
If you don't want me to challenge your one sided pro-Palestinian stance, you'll have to be fair and accurate about what you're saying.

As it stands now (just like most of the times), your follies have been exposed.

and her immorality has been exposed.
Yes you did dodge addressing it. You did so because you're morally decripit, a grand hypocrite and actually morally bankrupt.
It was very relevant to the Palestinian Israeli conflict, very intelligent, but it makes you feel very uneasy, so you do your utmost to evade it.
Every time you post something on this site, you enter a debating club. Your opponent/s won't go away just because you wish so, capice?
If you don't want me to challenge your one sided pro-Palestinian stance, you'll have to be fair and accurate about what you're saying.

As it stands now (just like most of the times), your follies have been exposed.

and her immorality has been exposed.

She did dodge addressing it. She did so because she's morally decripit, a grand hypocrite and actually morally bankrupt.
It was very relevant to the Palestinian Israeli conflict, very intelligent, but it makes her feel very uneasy, so she does her utmost to evade it.
Every time she posts something on this site, she enters a debating club. Her opponent/s won't go away just because you wish so.

If you don't bevie to challenge your one sided pro-Palestinian stance, you'll have to be fair and accurate about what you're saying.

As it stands now (like in most of the times), Bev's follies have been exposed.

Zionist idiot: "As it stands now (like in most of the times), Bev's follies have been exposed."


anti "anti angie" a.k.a. anti-Don a.k.a. anti-'whoever else he is' a.k.a. anti-Critical Thinker:

Well, I guess it's true just because you say so.

Im sure both sides on this site will denounce this but it really looks like peace may be possible. Im guessing that a majority of Palestinians and Israelis strongly support what this new agreement says. Its now just a matter of getting the leaderships to fully sign on.

---
New peace draft includes Palestinian rule on Temple Mount

By Haaretz Service and Agencies

The "Geneva Understandings" - a draft memorandum
for a permanent Israeli-Palestinian peace
agreement formulated by members of the Israeli
opposition and Palestinian officials –
includes allowing a certain number of Palestinians
to return to areas inside the State of Israel,
though not as part of a "right of return."




Under the terms of the
agreement, the Palestinians
would be granted sovereignty
over the Temple Mount, and the
area would be monitored by
international bodies. The
Jewish Quarter of the Old City
of Jerusalem, as well as the
Western Wall, would remain
under Israeli sovereignty.


The main points of the draft are as follows:

* The Palestinians will concede the right of
return. Some refugees will remain in the
countries where they now live, others will be
absorbed by the PA, some will be absorbed by
other countries and some will receive financial
compensation. A limited number will be allowed
to settle in Israel, but this will not be
defined as realization of the right of return.

* The Palestinians will recognize Israel as the
state of the Jewish people.

* Israel will withdraw to the 1967 borders,
except for certain territorial exchanges, as
described below.

* Jerusalem will be divided, with Arab
neighborhoods of East Jerusalem becoming part
of the Palestinian state. Jewish neighborhoods
of East Jerusalem, as well as the West Bank
suburbs of Givat Ze'ev, Ma'aleh Adumim and the
historic part of Gush Etzion - but not Efrat -
will be part of Israel.

* The Temple Mount will be Palestinian, but an
international force will ensure freedom of
access for visitors of all faiths. However,
Jewish prayer will not be permitted on the
mount, nor will archaeological digs. The
Western Wall will remain under Jewish
sovereignty and the "Holy Basin" will be under
international supervision.

* The settlements of Ariel, Efrat and Har Homa
will be part of the Palestinian state. In
addition, Israel will transfer parts of the
Negev adjacent to Gaza, but not including
Halutza, to the Palestinians in exchange for
the parts of the West Bank it will receive.

* The Palestinians will pledge to prevent terror
and incitement and disarm all militias. Their
state will be demilitarized, and border
crossings will be supervised by an
international, but not Israeli, force.

* The agreement will replace all UN resolutions
and previous agreements.

Members of the Israeli delegation upon returning
Sunday from talks with the Palestinians in
Amman, Jordan said that the initiative will be
released and signed during an international
conference to be held in Geneva soon.

Labor Chairman Shimon Peres refused to take part
in the agreement because it makes reference to
UN Resolution 194 that the Palestinians see as
the basis for their “right of
return,” and which Peres described as a
danger to Israel. Earlier Sunday it was
reported that the Palestinians had relinquished
their claim to a “right of return.”


Prime Minister Ariel Sharon told Channel Two on
Sunday that the initiative is hampering the
ability to move forward in negotiations towards
a practical peace agreement. According to a
Channel Two report, Sharon has learned from
intelligence sources that Palestinian Prime
Minister Ahmed Qureia and his government intend
to adopt the Geneva understandings.

According to Labor MK Amram Mitzna, Marwan
Barghouti, the Tanzim chief standing trial in
Israel for alleged murder, was partly involved
in the initiative, while Palestinian Authority
Chairman Yasser Arafat and Palestinian Prime
Minister Ahmed Qureia were aware of it.

The negotiating teams, which included former
minister Yossi Beilin, Labor MKs Avraham Burg
and Amram Mitzna and Meretz MK Haim Oron on the
Israeli side and Yasser Abed Rabbo and Nabil
Qassis on the Palestinian side, began their
talks in Amman on Thursday. The draft was
finalized Sunday and the signing ceremony is to
take place in Geneva in several weeks time.

"The document provides solutions to final
settlement issues such as the status of Arab
East Jerusalem, frontiers, the establishment of
a Palestinian state and the right of returning
home of Palestinian refugees who were forced to
leave Palestine when Israel was founded in
1948," said the deputy Palestinian ambassador
to Jordan, Atallah Khairi.

Although the Jordanian government said that it
"had nothing to do with the meeting," reliable
sources said that the Israeli-Palestinian talks
were attended by Jordanian Foreign Minister
Marwan Muasher and other senior Foreign
Ministry officials.

The document was prepared over the course of a
year by Beilin and Abed Rabbo, with the
assistance of several professionals, and is
intended to draft a permanent peace agreement
to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat
has given his blessing to the dialogue.

The draft is based on the Taba agreements that
were drafted during the end of Ehud Barak's
term as prime minister in 1999, and former U.S.
president Bill Clinton's plan for the division
of Jerusalem between Israel and the
Palestinians, which included providing the
right of return for Palestinians in
humanitarian cases.

Sarid: 'it's a shame the government won't talk,
just shoot'
Meretz MK Yossi Sarid told Israel Radio on
Friday that he had participated in the
discussions on the draft, but could not leave
for Jordan to attend the signing ceremony for
personal reasons.

"We believe in these meetings, we think that
there is something to talk about and someone to
talks too, perhaps today more than ever, and it
is a shame that the government won't talk, just
shoot," Sarid said.

"These meetings were not carried out in an
underground manner or in the dark," Sarid said,
referring to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon
accusations earlier this week that the Labor
and the left were cooperating with the
Palestinians "behind the back of the
government."

Sarid explained that the meetings had to be
coordinated with the security establishment.

"I don't understand why the prime minister was
angered by the meeting near the Dead Sea...
Perhaps Sharon is scared that a terrible secret
would come out: that there is someone to talk
and something to talk about, and a significant
degree of goodwill on the part of the second
party, and that this is a time in which calm,
even relative calm can be achieved... We,
unlike him, are not afraid."

Health Minister Dan Naveh (Likud) dismissed the
Belin-Abed Rabbo agreement as a document that
"reeked of a bad odor."

"The opposition is negotiating behind the
government's back with the Palestinians, while
we are in a serious conflict with them, in a
war against Palestinian terror, which is
directed and encouraged by some of the people
with whom the left-wing officials have met,"
Naveh said.

"It is not the opposition's job to hold talks,
it is the government's job, and there are
reasons for the government to avoid
negotiations today with these people, Arafat's
people, who have been behind the campaign of
murder of terror over the past three years,"
Naveh said.

"Those people, Sarid, Beilin and the others,
were the architects of the Oslo agreements ten
years ago, which in my opinion the agreement
that brought this terrible catastrophe on us,"
he added

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/348710.html

Uhhhhhh.

I'll copy and paste a part of that plan:

"The Temple Mount will be Palestinian, but an
international force will ensure freedom of
access for visitors of all faiths. However,
Jewish prayer will not be permitted on the
mount, nor will archaeological digs. The
Western Wall will remain under Jewish
sovereignty and the "Holy Basin" will be under
international supervision."

How's this. Ban muslims from praying in mecca, ok? Because that's about as fair as preventing jews from praying around the temple mount.

It's amazing the lengths the world wants to go through to not only give palestinians freedom but also hurt jews in as many ways as possible. These are peace agreements? "Jews can't pray" in the area that is the most ancient and holy place to jews on the face of earth? That's a fucking solution? How come all these "solutions" revolve around making israel even smaller than it already is, and/or preventing jews from praying, and/or preventing jews from controlling things because they're jews?

The world is retarded.

I think the idea of banning Jewish prayer on the Temple mount was to equalize tings with the Western wall.

Look closely at this agreement, polls of the Israeli public show majority agreement. Its also better than Oslo for both Palestinians and Israelis (and was agreed to by several prominent Palestinian militants). There would still be a buffer zone around the new Palestinian state and it wouldnt be allowed to arm but the buffer zone would be international rather than Israeli.

While this agreement could easilly fail for technical reasons (or since Sharon sees any agreement outside of his government as undermining his power). Opinions on this agreement are a good gauge of the real desires of those involved in this conflict. Most antiZionists on this site will denounce it since they dont really want peace and I'm guessing most proIsraelis on this site will denounce it since they really dont want peace. BUT NEITHER OF YOU SPEAK FOR EITHER THE PALESTINIANS OR ISRAELIS. If you are not stuck in the middle of a war zone with daily violence who are you to try to sit in your armchairs trying to undermine peace.

Your statement here is wrong.

You said "Most antiZionists on this site will denounce it since they dont really want peace and I'm guessing most proIsraelis on this site will denounce it since they really dont want peace."

Actually, most anti-zionists here (and on earth) want peace if it means palestinians get a state and jews no longer have theirs.

And most pro-israel people on this site want peace if it means palestinians get a state that is NOT a terrorist state WHILE jews get to keep their state.

That's the difference. That's why pro-israel people in real life and on this board are getting so furiously angry at these nuts that it's hard to want bear the knowledge that they exist and are so rabid.

"Yep" said: "I think the idea of banning Jewish prayer on the Temple mount was to equalize tings with the Western wall."

- In reality, the Western Wall isn't and has never been a holy Muslim place; Muslims never cared to come there. They have NO interest in it.
Secondly, as long as there's even one Jew who wants to ascend the Mount and pray, no proposed settlement has the right to deprive Jews of that religious right.

Now, which polls is "Yep" talking about? The vast majority of the Israeli public is incensed by and rejects this agreement. "Yep" appears to be some shrewd salesman trying to promote it.
Naturally, the anti-Zionists and antisemites couldn't care less that the Israeli lunatic fringe group that negotiated and reached the agreement represents only themselves and have undermined the governments authority in an anti-democratic move, which also explains the government's and public's anger at the Beilin group.

"Yep" is blissful in his delusions.

These "anti-zionists" are interested in peace if it means Jews being under Islamic rule and not being allowed to pray at the temple mount. They're total nutcases, and they seem to magically receive "funding" from mysterious groups that allows them to dedicate their lives spreading this nonsense.

Some BOOKS BY LENNI BRENNER, one of the world's foremost scholars, authors and authorities on the history of Zionism. Brenner 11 years-old when Israel became a state in 1948. A fervent anti-Zionist and pro-Palestinian human rights author-activist.

- The Hidden Documents of Zionism

- The Iron Wall : Zionist Revisionism from Jabotinsky to Shamir

- Zionism in the Age of the Dictators : A Reappraisal

- Jews in America Today

- 51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis

Dear whoever wrote the post BOOKS BY LENNI BRENNER,
I demand you stop this immediately! Stop disseminating the truth about our massacres of Palestinians, collaboration with Nazis, stealing of taxpayer's money, and disregard for Jewish life when the loss of it can help us meet our goals!
The world must not know what is happening in the Middle East! They must listen to politically correct, Israel-friendly news that we finance, such as ABC, CNN, and Fox News!
Stop spreading the truth immediately! The truth is very antizionist!

Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist