Robert Fisk: Israel's attack is a lethal step towards war in Middle East

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Fisk said two things of note:

Fisk said: "Yes, Syria does support Hamas and Islamic Jihad."

EDUCATED RESPONSE: Fisk agrees that Syria supports the fundamentalist "israel must die" terrorist groups that keep intentionally murdering Israeli civilians. And we've already seen the video showing the terrorist training camp in Syria that Israel hit. So what's the problem? Go Israel!

Fisk said: "In Jerusalem lives a prime minister, Ariel Sharon, who was adjudicated to be "personally responsible" by Israel's own Kahane commission of enquiry for the massacre of up to 1,700 Palestinian civilians at the Sabra and Chatila refugee camps in Beirut in 1982. But he is not going on trial for war crimes."

EDUCATED RESPONSE: FISK JUST LIED right to our faces. Sharon was not found "personally responsible." Sharon was found "INDIRECTLY responsible." Becuse neither him nor Israeli troops actually did it, it was a Christian Lebanese militia.

How does it feel to read Fisk BLATANTLY LYING right to your face? What does that say for the rest of his analysis?

Also, Fisk said something like (paraphrase) "what, suicide bombers need to train?"

EDUCATED RESPONSE: Now Fisk is pulling a "Rush Limbaugh" and making an idiotic sarcastic strawman argument that do not benefit the bullshit he just typed in any way.

Typical Fisk. Mr. pro-Arab-at-all-costs propaganda.

Hey, "Don" or whoever you are posting the above. I just wanted to thank you for bumping the article up on the commentary board. For everyone who takes your bullshit seriously, there are probably 10 who pay more attention to the article above by Robert Fisk. So your propaganda can backfire -- it just sucks doesn't it?

... israel striking syrian territory DOESN'T exacerbate an already inflamed situation, DOESN'T allow fisk to asert that a middle east wide war is possible, and furthermore, the more israel strikes syria, and the more terrorists bomb israeli's, the more likely there will be peace.

that position is as full of crap as any fisk might assert.

what i can't figure out in the conflict between palestine, the arab countries and israel is why terrorists who bomb israeli's wonder why they are hated, wonder why they get attacked, continue to play innocent, and continue to say "hey, it's not our actions, it's them"... and israeli's who occupy and bomb arabs wonder why they are hated, wonder why they get attacked, continue to play innocent, and continue to say "hey, it's not our actions, it's them".

because frankly, i no longer see any innocense, nobility of purpose or moral authority on any side. the israeli's and the terrorists have each become what they hate in the other. they are the same in their hate and in the actions their hate fuels. for each to continue their protestations of innocense as they wash the same blood and guilt off the same hands is a deluded joke of an immense and most tragic kind.

and for this deluded joke to continue leading to violence, hate and death year after year, and for the same pitiful excuses to be glibbly repeated again and again by both sides, is an even worse tragedy. it's humanity at it's absolute worst, too weak and cowardly to change....

To "bump"

See, the thing is, what I posted isn't "propaganda." it's FACTS, and the FACT that you INTENTIONALLY LIE AND TWIST THE TRUTH to put information out is quite telling of you.

It's a FACT that ariel sharon was found "INDIRECTLY responsible" and NOT "personally responsible."

That's not propaganda. It's a fact. Fisk knows that. Fisk LIES in his columns.

Syria closed down the offices of Hamas and Jihad months ago in response to pressure from the US and Israel. So how is it self-defense for Israel to bomb Syria given that it had absolutely nothing to do with the blowback Israel is incurring due to its occupation and subjugation (for 55 years!) of the Palestinian people.

Israel's lack of security is due entirely to the lack of security and deliberate impoverishment the Palestinian people have to live under every single day of their lives.

Also, the FACT is that Ariel Sharon was responsible for the bombings of Beirut and other Lebanese villages that left 20,000 Lebanese civilians dead in just a three month period in the summer of 1982.

"The Lebanese government casualty figures are based on police records, which in turn are based on actual counts in hospitals, clinics and civil defense centers. These figures, according to police spokesmen, do 'not include people buried in mass graves in areas where Lebanese authorities were not informed.' The figures, including the figure of 19,000 dead and over 30,000 wounded, must surely be underestimates, assuming that those celebrating their liberation (the story that Israel and its supporters here would like us to believe) were not purposely magnifying the scale of the horrors caused by their liberators. Particularly with regard to the Palestinians, one can only guess what the scale of casualties may have been." http://www.infotrad.clara.co.uk/antiwar/fatefultri.html
-Noam Chomsky
The Fateful Triangle

Invariably, someone will say that this was retaliation. The fact of the matter is, Israel bombed Lebanon for months attempting to elicit a response it could use to justify its planned invasion.
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1621818.php

I don't blame Robert for being obviously outraged here. It's so damn tragically dishonest when Israel, with its cache of weapons of every kind known to man, including nuclear weaponry, yells "self-defence" against Syria, who was sitting there minding its own business, and whatever army it might have had has been effectively destroyed by Israel in previous "wars".

"Self defence" when the neighbouring countries are virtually defenceless against the bombs, and gun ships, and missiles, and everything else besides? Who can possibly believe this garbage?

The question is who is going to protect the rest of the middle east? They have a right to exist, and a right to defend themselves against Israeli aggression. But we have to ask the question "with what"?

Oh, and I daresay Robert is well aware by now, if he wasn't when the above article was written, that no journalists have been permitted access to the so-called "terrorist camp". Sounds so familiar, doesn't it? Remember Jenin, anyone?

>Sharon was not found "personally responsible." Sharon was found "INDIRECTLY responsible."


Translation: his hired goons did it for him.

You guys are a real piece of work. You sound like public relations representatives of arafat.

No, not everything Fisk says is a lie. But Fisk DOES LIE. He types things in his articles that he knows aren't true. He's like Rush Limbaugh, only with different masters.

It's also FUNNY how you guys mention the ariel sharon thing from 1982 every chance you get even when it has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation. I think sharon is a dickhead, but I'm still laughing at your method of communicating.

Listen, you can hate sharon and dislike israel's government, but that doesn't mean you have to pledge solidarity with every scumbag who spews anti-israel stuff, and you don't have to pledge solidarity with every anti-israel statement, especially the ones that are blatantly false.

ANGIE SAYS: ...it might have had has been effectively destroyed by Israel in previous "wars".

ANGIE-CORRECTOR: Angie, by putting the word WARS in quotes, you seem to be implying that they weren't really wars. Well, they definitely were.

ANgie's other nonsense isn't worth correcting. She now basically echos exactly what propagandists hired by the Palestinian Authority themselves would say. She's long gone.

If they jump on the bandwagon of anyone who seems to agree with them at any time then who knows what evil people they will end up following in the long run..

I note the pompous "Angie Corrector" is at a loss for words, and thus reverts to the norm - slithering off the board whilst yelling as he/she goes that I'm a mouthpiece for the Palestinian Authority. (Hehehe)

Then the parting shot: "Angie is long gone".

Got news for you, sir/madam. If anyone is long gone here, it sure as hell is not myself.

J'y suis, j'y reste!!!!

Dearest Angie,

I'm not at a loss for words. I am Angie Corrector. However, when you fall so far off the deep end that you basically echo what the PR guys of the Palestinian Authority say, you're basically beyond correcting.

I mean, what if I start claiming that I can fly and think I'll fly to the moon tomorrow? Should I expect a discussion? Of course not. Same goes for when you basically mouth off rhetoric that is virtually identical to what Arafat's spokesmen claim, like you did above.

My friend, you jump on more bandwagons than anyone on this board does. Every person who pauses here to say ye'ah or nay, providing they disagree with something I've said, there you are, leaping to embrace them.

You're always accusing me of jumping on Robert Fisk's bandwagon because I agree with what he says, and there you are, dare I say, jumping on the "Angie Corrector's" bandwagon because you presumably agree with him/her.

Ah, but at least in the case of Robert Fisk he has a brilliant, independent mind.

>My friend, you jump on more bandwagons than anyone on this board does. Every person who pauses here to say ye'ah or nay, providing they disagree with something I've said, there you are, leaping to embrace them.

I might embrace the point but not the person (unless possibly if I know them very well)

>Ah, but at least in the case of Robert Fisk he has a brilliant, independent mind.

I havent seen any evidence as to why fisk would be classified as brillient.. do you have his IQ test results hidden somwhere?

Otherwise his reporting just classifies him as a James Forlong (the sky news reporter busted for fabricating a scene) or
Gina Wilkinson who gets children to play with explosives for the cameras (makes for a nice story eh)
Or a Peter Arnette who hides all the bad stuff about despots in order to get high profile interviews.

hmm except fisk lies a little more than these guys..
although possibly less than John Pilger.

Inflamatory? sure but We point out where Fisk has said things that arent true constantly things that no one (except maybe fisk) disputes and yet you still refer to him as some intelectual giant.

In the interests of time and space, I suggest you go about the board and read your intellectually-challenged posts scattered about here as recent as today, bearing in mind as you do so that no one is pointing a gun at your head demanding you read anything I write, much less respond to same.

Imagine you (and your pals) suggesting I'm listening to, and repeating, what the PA's PR people are saying! Coming from those of you out there supporting Israel, bearing in mind your little terrorist state invented propaganda and turned it into an art form, that would be laughable if I had the time or inclination to so do. Have you forgotten that the word "lie" and all the variations thereof, is used here so often that I sometimes think it's the only word you (plural) know?

Do you dispute Israel has every conceivable weapon including nuclear capabilities?

Do you dispute that the surrounding states do not have a similar arsenal?

Do you want us to believe that no other country in the Middle East has a right to exist and to defend itself?

Are you saying that journalists were allowed access into the Jenin refugee camp from 5 April to 16 April?

Oh, and is the bit about spouting Arafat and/or Palestinian propaganda something new? Seems you're not the only one throwing that accusation about today! Been listening to Sharon the Wicked, eh?? New strategy and all that! Spare us!

However, as I told you in another long ago thread, I am not going to allow you to soak up my time and energy with your garbage. Only the opinions of the righteous and wise matter.

Righteous and wise thou art not!

What shit is she now slinging in our faces?

"your little terrorist state invented propaganda"

- Strange how she knows this. Israel was established in 1948. Propaganda was invented way prior to that year.

"and turned it into an art form"

- She's too embarrassed to admit this characterizes her beloved Palestinians.

"that would be laughable if I had the time or inclination to so do."

- This should read: she has a very strong inclination and too much time on her hands to do it.

"Have you forgotten that the word "lie" and all the variations thereof, is used here so often that I sometimes think it's the only word you (plural) know?"

- At least she got one thing right. There are so many lies about Israel, Zionism, Judaism, Jews and anything pertaining to them being spewed by Angie (among others), giving away the impression that lying is the almost the only thing she knows to do.

"Do you dispute Israel has every conceivable weapon including nuclear capabilities?"

I do. Just compare Israel's arsenal to that of the US and you'll realize Israel lacks many weapon types.

"Do you want us to believe that no other country in the Middle East has a right to exist and to defend itself?"

This is a moot point because no Arab country has been subjected to Israeli aggression. They were only hit when they committed first aggression toward Israel. Lebanon isn't really independent anyway, and Israel had its security zone in south Lebanon to keep Hizballah from getting down to the border and terrorizing northern Israel, which has already begun to happen in the last few days. Why don't you protest angrily and loudly against the Hizballah attack on the village of Metula in Israel, Saint Angie?

"Been listening to Sharon the Wicked, eh??"

- I've been listening to Sharon AND Angie the Wicked witch. What I read only confirms what a Wicked and one-sided person you are.


"Only the opinions of the righteous and wise matter. "

- That's right. Yours don't matter. Amen to that!

Oh, I did say Angie is mentally 5 years old. She only proves it each time around.

And, dear lad, let me say I missed your totally charming presence over the past few days, so much so I could not find it within my five year old mentality to check out the Board with any enthusiasm whatsoever knowing, as I did, that you would not be there to leap onto a particular thread the moment I did, ranting wildly as befits someone of your own diminutive mental capabilities. Yes, it's been a sad, lonely few days. Indeed, so!

Now what are you going on about, "Bull"?

Oh, yes. "Propaganda". There it was, an inoffensive little word, like countless other inoffensive little words, until Israel turned it into a national pasttime.

You're making irrational assumptions here (hehehe, as if that were a new phenomonen for you et al) by referring to the Palestinians as my "beloved Palestinians". They are, in reality, an occupied and oppressed people whose noble spirit will not be crushed!

Naughty, naughty, "Bull". When I spoke of "lying" here, I was referring to the supporters of Israel, and you damn well know it. I did, in fact, say you (plural) in the comment to "Angie Corrector". Turning something around to make it fit your agenda is a malicious characteristic. You should cease doing that., "Bull".

Let me see. Oh, yes "Angie the Wicked Witch", says "Bull". Again, that's an outright fabrication of reality, laddie. I mean, I don't even have a massacre named after me. I don't even have my own broom, nor a massive cauldron with scary potions. Now if I did ....

And there you go again stealing my comments (which were given to me by someone quite learned) and using them against me. I stated that only the opinions of the righteous and wise matter, and I ADDED to "Angie Corrector" that "righteous and wise thou art not".

Nor are you, "Bull". Nor are you.

Dear fellow stormtroopers,
Today is a sad day in our history of controlling North America and filling the people's heads with Zionist propaganda. One of our main financial supporters and comrades Israel ( also affectionately known as Izzy) Asper has kicked the bucket, descending into the world where the souls of past Zionist visionaries are resting, also known as hell, according to most faiths.
Asper was a good Zionist, supporting our occupation of Palestinian lands and our campaign of apartheid against the Palestinian people. He often invited many beloved war criminals from the IDF to explain why Israeli soldiers are justified in killing Palestinian children, and once even invited our former fuhrer Benjamin Netanyahu to Winnipeg, to let him speak of his experience in violating the Geneva Convention when he acted against the 1987 intifada.
Izzy Asper was a good Zionist. He respected and cherished human rights, as long as no one would bring up the abuses our poor little Israel has been committing against the Palestinians. He was a great apologist, defending our atrocities with great vigor and accusing everyone who disagrees of being an antisemite. He knew all the tricks.
The money he collected and sent to Israel has helped keep our apartheid state safe from any consequences for its' crimes. He was a great financial help to our army of crooks.
The funeral will be held tomorrow in a synagogue. Izzy was a great faker too, he was able to convince himself and others that Zionism is an aspect of the Jewish culture and faith. There are many Jews who know the truth about who they are, but many others ( Jews and non-Jews) have been successfully convinced that according to their faith, murder and stealing land is OK- which is basically what Zionism is about.
He is surely looking now at us and marvelling at the pprogress Zionism has made and continues to make in the quest to enlarge the Israeli empire. While waiting for an imp to come over and stab him in the butt with a pitchfork.
But we must not fear conscience, morals or religious values. My dear fellow stormtroopers, the Zionist battle against human rights and the hope for justice in the Middle East must continue. We must never surrender!

Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist

My friend, I thought I'd responded to one of your posts last night wherein I mentioned the passing of Izzy, whose dictum that any reporter/columnist/newspaper publish anything negative about Israel, was legendary.

What did surprise me was the amount of time devoted to his passing by CBC's National. I couldn't help but wonder in a somewhat detached sort of way what dear Gwynne and others were thinking yesterday, not to mention those sitting back watching as the National Post has become less than half the newspaper it once was under Conrad Black.

Angie and "concerned zionist."

Fuck both of you god damned scumbags.

Angie, I'm glad your parents are dead. They are fucking evil scumbags for bringing a dishonest whore like yourself into the world. Hopefully more of your family members experience cancer or otherwise painful exits off this beautiful planet of ours.

What hte f uck is "dear" about "concerned zionist?"

The way he makes shit up? the way he paints a picture that barely exists? The way he takes extreme bullshit and pretends it's the norm?

What in fucking hell is "dear" about your evil piece of shit scumbag friend?

Is everyone who hates Israel "dear" to your heart, you fucking evil piece of sick shit?

This is a classic example of totally failing to unerstand the other sides point of view (just as JA and concerned zionist seem to do)
We are aware of the facts just as you are

But you seen to be using a lot of irrelevant points to try to prove something. For example saying "israel is relitively strong therefore...." therefore WHAT? If that is a meaningful logic then a government of zimbabwae or liberia is somehow arbitrarily more innocent than... France for example or canada for that matter. (talk about specious if anything the opposite is true)

fuck... stfu your loosing the plot here a little.
Angie might be an apologist for Arafat but there are a billion odd of them in the world and your not exactly helping to convince anyone by making conservatives look like genocidal maniacs.
Your just doing the work of leftist trolls.

Dear stfu,
You are really a true Zionist, my friend. I love your use of the word 'fuck', it is quite a fascinating word, isn't it? It describes emotional things such as one's own feelings as well as the situation in the world today- 'fuck' is a perfect word to describe what the Zionist lobby is doing to the American taxpayers.
Your hatred of the world is admirable, my friend. You even hate fellow Zionists such as myself who, like yourself, are fighting for Israel's right to murder others every day. Your nastiness is a true Zionist trait, mocking the deaths of someone's parents. Is your own mother still alive (I don't want to ask you about your father- you probably don't know which pimp it was either)? Or did you kill her to get some cash out of her purse so you could go to a burlesque house to see your girlfriend? Sorry if I offended you. I'm sure you wouldn't kill a person like your mother unless you had a good reason, like wanting to get her Visa card.
Dear stfu, keep up the good work. Being an obnoxious self-centered asshole is an important aspect of being a Zionist. Don't ever turn your back on your heritage.

Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist

I can tell that you definitely have "diminutive mental capabilities" and that anti bullshit was right proclaiming you're mentally 5 years old.

But comparing you mentally to a toddler does toddlers injustice and places you under a somewhat positive light that you don't deserve, as you are capable of blurting out a painfully moronic line such as the Palestinians being "an occupied and oppressed people whose noble spirit will not be crushed!" when in reality, they are oppressed by their own leadership and their terror organizations even more than by Israel for their constant infatuation with terrorism, massacre and addiction to hatred.

You say: " "Propaganda". There it was, an inoffensive little word, like countless other inoffensive little words, until Israel turned it into a national pasttime."

Your a rabid and loony retard of the highest ranking. Your claim doesn't square with the facts at all. Israel has been very poor on the propaganda front at least for the past 11 years. In any rate, the Palestinians and Arabs have always had an edge on the propaganda front. Go back to grade school.

Whether or not "anti bullshit" was being malicious is beside the point since s/he was right.

I'm not sure anti bullshit was disrespecting women or meant to do so when s/he called you "Angie the Wicked Witch", yet given all the crap that you rant and spout, he's really on to something: you're an evil individual who doesn't want to be confused with any facts that refute or contradict your anti-Israeliness. I fail to understand why you think the fact you never committed a massacre makes you not evil. And on yet another serious note: you're playing dumb, as if one needs a broom and other objects to be a witch. YOU KNOW that perfectly and your mockery is counterproductive. It hasn't made you score more points.

You say "anti bullshit" has stolen your comments. Did s/he? In any rate, both you and that ostensibly learned person are evidently retards. I can only deduce that "anti bullshit" is indeed righteous and wise, especially if you need to juxtapose him/her against yourself.

I have nothing to add to what "Down with Angie" told you (he really captured all the points worth responding to and responded properly) except that I second the gloating of "stfu" for your parents' death. I only disagree with him about their ostensible nature and guilt. Many parents give birth to fucking evil scumbags who are dishonest whores (like yourself) and are either more moral or less moral than yourself. That doesn't make it their fault.

I wonder if the mad JA, under several of his screen names, will be jumping all over me and "stfu", pounding us for our comments about your parents.


Angie, I'm glad your parents are dead. They are fucking evil scumbags for bringing a dishonest whore like yourself into the world. Hopefully more of your family members experience cancer or otherwise painful exits off this beautiful planet of ours.

P.S.: I guess you were fed the "people whose noble spirit will never be broken!" crap bit by that "learned" person, who in reality is a crazed whackjob like yourself.

Dear stfu,
My most sincere apologies, I shouldn't have assumed you were a Zionist. You have proved to me that you are nothing more than a foul mouthed pervert who enjoys having sex with animals and wants to observe others doing so. My mother did not engage in any sexual relations with your father ( not very nice of you to describe your own family members as dogs, you know), you must have been referring to the crackpot whore who pays you guys a visit every Friday night. Don't worry, you were both to drunk to know it was actually a transvestite.
You seem to be on even a lower step on the ladder of humanity, even below the Zionist group. So my apologies for treating you like one, you are obviously below even that category. You claim that you are an 'anti terrorist', and not 'pro israel'. That's pretty good, not even our boys in the IDF would want someone who thinks that bestiality is a hobby. They may be criminals, but they aren't anywhere close to being as perverted as you. What do you do with terrorists, stfu? Actually, no. I don't think I want to know about your BDSM 'adventures'.
You also said you would like me to 'say that to your face' one day. Next time when I come to the zoo I'd love to pay you a visit, provided you are still in the same primate cage. But please don't be getting any ideas in your sick mind. I'm not the kind of guy you want me to be. You may want to try Michael Jackson.
He has the same idea of having a ' good time' as you do. He likes little boys. You seem to prefer your dog. But I'm sure you two can come to some sort of an agreement.
I don't go to see psychiatrists, but my doctor and dentist probably doesn't share your fantasies either.
Sorry, friend! Good luck finding someone who is willing to crawl down as deep into the gutter as you!

Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist

Re your comments above with respect to Robert Fisk.

I'll simply state that people of questionable intellect do not obtain a Ph.D. in Political Science (or anything else) from Trinity College in Dublin. You can rest assured of that (or check the entrance requirements yourself).

If you want to learn anything more about Robert than what you continue to post here, why not check out some of the following when you have a moment or two.

For instance, an overview of Robert's education, work, and awards, etc. can be found at:
http://www.venusproject.com/books_authors/robert_Fisk.html

An Alan Bock April 02 interview can be found at:
http://www.antiwar.com
(then search for Alan Bock "Meeting Robert Fisk")

If you're interested in a brief Canadian perspective of Robert, check:
http://www.canadiandimension.mb.ca
(And then search for "Words of Wisdom from Robert Fisk")

In July of 1998, Matthew Rothschild's in-depth interview with Robert appeared in the Progressive, and that's at:
http://wwwprogressive.org/rothfisk9807.htm

A more recent interview with Robert (June 03) can be found at:
http://www.countercurrents.irg/pa-fisk010613.htm

An article that you might have something in common with can be found at:
http://www.rc3.org/cgi-bin/less.pl?arg=5136

Note: If this page comes up "Not found", just go to http://www.rc3.org and search for Robert Fisk therein.

I am not asking you to change your mind; your mindset is quite apparent. It would be fun, however, if you were a little fair re our Mr. Fisk.

Im interested to see Fisks PHD I’m going to have a look and see if its available anywhere.
as to the rest maybe saying lying without explaining it sounds a bit harsh.
This is how I view it.
You have certain journalists who see certain events. they Then start to write an article on it. If they write in a certain style like pilger for example the first like totally independent of what they saw can be written as "America does bad stuff again" or "innocent Iraqis suffer" etc this is what is expected of them and its the sort of article they know will get published and they will get paid for.
Next they start thinking of stuff they saw that matches that story. so they discard anything about saddam killing people (because it would detract from their main point) and start to write. Maybe the Americans didn’t do anything wrong this time but they have to finish an article and the pressure is on so they say something that the Americans "could have done" and talk about it as if its a fact. By the end they actually believe that is what happened.
The fatal flaw is that they started themselves on the slippery slide by being an investigative journalist who wrote opinion pieces.
They should have started with exactly what happened no matter how dry and boring and run that first. But instead most of the information becomes lost in the editing process.

My best guess is his Phd is based on his book "In Time of War: Ireland, Ulster, and the Price of Neutrality" since it was written two years after the book.

But the Phd doesn't seem to be in a journal anywhere and I havent searched the online Phd's yet. I fear that Fisk just doesn't fit with peer review.

How long after Arafat's death will it take for the conspiracy theorists on these threads to blame Israel, thereby making him a martyr?

(If you haven't seen it, Time is reporting that some insiders believe the 74-year old has stomach cancer.)

My guess is about 2 hours.

The palistinians wont tell you for about 6 hours and then it will take ten minutes for the first conspiracy theorists to make up a stupid conspiricy theory about it.

wait I got a better idea
the palistinians will wait 2 days in order to set up the evidence to frame the israelis.
The plan may well be in arafats will.

Well, in the modern day world of "peace activism," here is how you have to summarize everything:

(1) When arabs kill jews, it's the fault of the jews
(2) when arabs kill arabs, it's probably due to stuff jews, err, "zionists," did that caused it.
(3) when arabs yell that they want freedom and an end to the occupation, the jews are evil for not ending it
(4) when other arabs right next to the arabs in #3 yell that the entire 'zionist entity' must be removed, no peace with israel ever, the jews are evil for not allowing it to happen and if some innocent arabs in #2 are inconvenienced it's of course all the fault of the jews and not their neighbors who keep attacking the jews
(5) muslims can try to kill the jews, and kill the jews, and that's not too nice, but when jews even THINK of harming members of terrorist organiations, the jews are wrong and are evil
(6) Arafat spent 30 years in a row intentionally murdering innocent people. But now he's old and SAYS he just wants peace, so naturally "peace activists" immediately forgive him for his entire lifetime of constant terrorism and take his side and want to protect him.
(7) no matter how arafat dies, he is a "martyr" in the eyes of (1) arab terrorists, (2) leftist "peace" activists, and naturally whatever happens is the fault of israel/zionists/jews (pick whichever).

I had just written a medium sized post here, Scottie, and, no, I didn't lose it. I deleted it.

Why? Because it simply doesn't matter.

Think I'll just go on back to work for a while and then check out Robert's web site and see what he's saying. Like Uri, Robert has a brave and courageous heart. He doesn't need me to defend him for that!

Well, here are the rules of the "progressive" leftist "peace" (hah" activists:

(1) blame everything on zionists
(2) if arabs kill jews, blame israel/zionists/jews
(3) if arabs kill arabs, blame israel/zionists/jews or just twist the topic to somehow say something bad about israel/zionists/jews
(4) if it rains and the day stinks, blame israel/zionists/jews
(5) Arafat isn't wrong for spending 30 years in a row intentionally murdering innocent people, hijaking airplanes in the old days, etc., but israel is wrong for EVEN THINKING ALOUD about harming him.

Etc.

The second Palestinian prime minister, appointed just recently, is already sick of having to just do whatever Arafat tells him and is ready to quit

Palestinian PM ready to resign

Thursday 09 October 2003, 18:03 Makka Time, 15:03 GMT


Former parliamentary speaker Ahmad Quraya



Related:
Blast hits Israeli army checkpoint
Israel bolsters troops in West Bank, Gaza
Tel Aviv rejects Quraya's olive branch
Arafat advisers deny heart attack



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Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmad Quraya, who was sworn in only 48 hours ago, has told President Yasir Arafat he wants to resign.


Aides close to the Palestinian President said on Thursday that Quraya told Arafat that he did not want to be prime minister any more.


Palestinian officials said Arafat wanted to dismiss Interior Minister Nasir Yusuf, in charge of security and that Quraya opposed the move.

Earlier, a Palestinian parliament session where Quraya was to outline his programme of government was delayed indefinitely.

"Because of differences in opinion about the government, it has been decided to postpone the session indefinitely," acting speaker Ibrahim Abu al-Naja told deputies.

Dispute

The deputies had earlier been locked in closed-door talks about whether Quraya and his eight ministers needed a formal vote of approval.

Quraya was appointed in a presidential decree by Palestinian President Yasir Arafat that also ushered in emergency rule for the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Independent MP Hanan Ashrawi had earlier said that there was a division over whether a vote of confidence was needed.

"There are two schools of thought," she said.

"First, this cabinet is part of the state of emergency and so
therefore no vote of confidence is needed. But others do not approve of the state of emergency and believe it should be a regular government" which requires parliamentary approval, she said.

Members of parliament felt the government had been imposed on them.

Criticism


Palestinian MPs were uneasy over
declaration of emergency cabinet


Kadura Faris, an MP for Arafat’s Fatah movement, had said while the law allowed for emergency rule, the current conditions did not necessitate such a government.

“There has been a great deal of opposition among Fatah and PLC members against the forming of the emergency government and we are now waiting to have an ordinary rather than emergency government,” he said

Arafat announced the imposition of emergency law in the wake of a resistance attack in the northern Israeli city of Haifa which left 19 people dead, including the female bomber. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the blast.

Following the explosion, there were renewed Israeli demands to “remove” the Palestinian president.

Parliament was expected to use Thursday’s meeting to vote on the next leader of the PLC, after Quraya stepped down to take up the premiership, said a deputy.

The second Palestinian prime minister, appointed just recently, is already sick of having to just do whatever Arafat tells him and is ready to quit

Palestinian PM ready to resign

Thursday 09 October 2003, 18:03 Makka Time, 15:03 GMT


Former parliamentary speaker Ahmad Quraya



Related:
Blast hits Israeli army checkpoint
Israel bolsters troops in West Bank, Gaza
Tel Aviv rejects Quraya's olive branch
Arafat advisers deny heart attack



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Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmad Quraya, who was sworn in only 48 hours ago, has told President Yasir Arafat he wants to resign.


Aides close to the Palestinian President said on Thursday that Quraya told Arafat that he did not want to be prime minister any more.


Palestinian officials said Arafat wanted to dismiss Interior Minister Nasir Yusuf, in charge of security and that Quraya opposed the move.

Earlier, a Palestinian parliament session where Quraya was to outline his programme of government was delayed indefinitely.

"Because of differences in opinion about the government, it has been decided to postpone the session indefinitely," acting speaker Ibrahim Abu al-Naja told deputies.

Dispute

The deputies had earlier been locked in closed-door talks about whether Quraya and his eight ministers needed a formal vote of approval.

Quraya was appointed in a presidential decree by Palestinian President Yasir Arafat that also ushered in emergency rule for the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Independent MP Hanan Ashrawi had earlier said that there was a division over whether a vote of confidence was needed.

"There are two schools of thought," she said.

"First, this cabinet is part of the state of emergency and so
therefore no vote of confidence is needed. But others do not approve of the state of emergency and believe it should be a regular government" which requires parliamentary approval, she said.

Members of parliament felt the government had been imposed on them.

Criticism


Palestinian MPs were uneasy over
declaration of emergency cabinet


Kadura Faris, an MP for Arafat’s Fatah movement, had said while the law allowed for emergency rule, the current conditions did not necessitate such a government.

“There has been a great deal of opposition among Fatah and PLC members against the forming of the emergency government and we are now waiting to have an ordinary rather than emergency government,” he said

Arafat announced the imposition of emergency law in the wake of a resistance attack in the northern Israeli city of Haifa which left 19 people dead, including the female bomber. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the blast.

Following the explosion, there were renewed Israeli demands to “remove” the Palestinian president.

Parliament was expected to use Thursday’s meeting to vote on the next leader of the PLC, after Quraya stepped down to take up the premiership, said a deputy.

> Think I'll just go on back to work for a while and then check out Robert's web site and see what he's saying.

Are the people who criticize Fisk wrong? or are they right on the points that they make you just think Fisk is a good guy anyway?

Even people who have never read fisks stuff can think of a handful of things that he has said that were obviously wrong (he is so famous for saying these things). Those of us who have can think of a handful in every article.
If someone wrote like that on this board I would understand it but I always used to expect a bit more from my newspapers etc.
However I have often read fisks stuff for light relief.

it's funny that you say you read Fisk "for light relief" when he so obviously agitates you. unless you're a masochist and can only find relief through pain, it's clear you're bullshitting.

if you want to look for a writer on the Mid East who says things that are "clearly wrong", you need look no futher than Judith
"Chalabi" Miller of the NY Times with her amazing "exclusives". but, of course, you'll never criticize that fatuous pool of piss.

btw, are you still flacking for the Iraq invasion? what a fool you are, if so.

I am at a loss with respect to your remark:

"Even people who have never read Fisk's stuff can think of a handful of things that he has said that were obviously wrong (he's so famous for doing these things)".

If people do not read Robert's articles, how can they even form an opinion of his work, much less produce a "handful of things" he's purported to have said that are supposedly incorrect?

Aaron
>it's funny that you say you read Fisk "for light relief" when he so obviously agitates you.

-actuallly he doesnt agitate me - I am quite familiar with his work maybe "for light relief" is the wrong phrase but i do read his work and its not because I think it is informative so you figure out a reason. If anything agitates me is just the fact that someone would take what he says as gospel.

>unless you're a masochist and can only find relief through pain, it's clear you're bullshitting.

What is your theory then?

if you want to look for a writer on the Mid East who says things that are "clearly wrong", you need look no futher than Judith
"Chalabi" Miller of the NY Times with her amazing "exclusives". but, of course, you'll never criticize that fatuous pool of piss.

- p[robably because I have NO IDEA who judith is until you mentioned it here and if she is renowned for lying then I am not all that interested in finding out. Of course if you can find some rubish that she has posted print it here and some one supports it Ill have some one on if they support her.
I am surprised you did not use anne coulter (or whatever her name is) she seems to be the most famous target for these things (although people outside if the US go "anne who?")

> btw, are you still flacking for the Iraq invasion? what a fool you are, if so.

so sayith the fool.

Angie
> If people do not read Robert's articles, how can they even form an opinion of his work, much less produce a "handful of things" he's purported to have said that are supposedly incorrect?

- because he is renowned as a person who makes statements that are more entertainment than fact.
Arron presumably thinks "judith" whoever she is is another of these people. For all I know maybe he is right (since aaron, as biased as he may be, is usually not a lier)
We are talking about standards.

Looked up Judith.
I guess you refer to this
http://slate.msn.com/id/2086110/
It seems that to sum up what she says as

"some one told me that there are lots of WMD here... he may or may not be who he says he is"

Come on there has got to be someone on the right who is doing worse than that.
Now if she said "i saw WMD" and they weren't there......... now that would be a good example.

by the way have you read this?

http://www.cia.gov/cia/public_affairs/speeches/2003/david_kay_10022003.html

look at the list of concealment efforts
there is still room for Saddam to have been doing a bit of misbehaving on the WMD front eh?

Over the last several hours I went back and read again the article by Robert Fisk, wondering if I missed something; that if, perchance, overnight on Wednesday whilst we slept, the thread ceased to be an article dealing with Israel's attack on Syria, and was now devoted to vilifying my parents and myself.

Nope, it was still Robert's article

Yet, there they were, the foul mouthed "stfu", followed by "Down with Angie" and "Anti-Bullshit", all expounding viciously about my parents. For instance, this piece of bile:

"Angie, I am glad your parents are dead. They are fucking evil scumbags for bringing a dishonest whore like yourself into the world. Hopefully more of your family members experience cancer or otherwise painful exits off this beautiful planet of ours".

(I daresay everyone read that? Didn't see "Idiot Corrector" rushing to the thread with his/her bar of soap to insist these so-called humans clean out their filthy mouths as he/she did with Patrick Kelly in another thread last week. Hell, not!)

That Anti-bullshit and his equally dispicable pals could come on here and spew this sort of hatred about, and vilify so viciously, my dear parents shows the kind of wicked excuses for human beings they are.

If they were just a centimetre as decent and caring as my parents were, and always will be to my siblings and I, Anti-bullshit and friends would be blessed, but they are not nor will they ever be.

Gutless, hiding behind the anonymity of a discussion board, because if they were not, if they were required to post here or elsewhere under their real names, they'd be yanked into a Court of Law so fast their vacant heads would spin.

Gloating about someone's death is beyond cruel, but you seem to be forgetting one very obvious and inescapable fact. It will happen to you in due course, if it hasn't already.

Maybe not today or tomorrow, but you will no doubt live long enough to see your parents die, and/or other family members, and when that happens, you won't be whooping it up with glee unless you're even sicker than you've shown here.

Take it from one who's been there. The loss remains, the pain remains, but it is personal, not for public consumption. And it is CERTAINLY NOT something to be dragged on to a discussion board here or elsewhere as a source of mockery by total strangers, who know not of what they speak, to be read by total strangers.

Wicked does not cover it. In fact, there's nothing that justifies this, but you can bet someone out there will attempt to do so.

PS to A Concerned Zionist. I am sorry that referring to you as "dear' constituted your being dragged into this vicious attack. Apparently these people don't read, or they'd know by now I use the word "dear" a lot, obviously too often because I note with horror I had earlier referred to "Anti-bullshit as "dear laddie". Strange "stfu" didn't pounce on that.

Look forward to your next contribution either here or elsewhere on SF Indymedia, my friend. Oh, and do you suppose I might borrow your bulldozer?

I AM blessed, no thanks to your ostensibly wonderful parents. I never cared to meet them in particular.
I mistakenly pasted on of the passages by "stfu" into the post where I gloated over your parents' death. Your parents might have been wonderful people, but you sure as heaven aren't.

You're so pompous and I'm not the first to tell you it. You have no reason to behave that way, which features in most of your posts. You'll probably never understand that this site is a battlefield, ergo you shouldn't expect to be treated with kid gloves. If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

Simply put, you're a bloody excuse for humanity, as you are quite fond of telling others.

Now I see you think you know a lot about law. You've become a lawyer or somethin'? Don't crack me up. Additionally, how do we know you're posting under your real name? Care to prove it, or do you just expect us all to take your word (what a joke) for it?
I don't want some people here to know my real name. For one, I deserve privacy. Second, who knows what some ultra-Leftists from SF-IMC and their affiliates might do if they get to know my name. It isn't necesarily cowardice, it's plain common sense to protect my most basic privacy on a site like this.

And, why would you call a total stranger "laddie". Who do you think you are? You really should make a judment call before starting that instead of reaching a coincidential point where you're under a very personal attack that may ar may not occur.

You're a bloody cretin every bit as your buddy 'concerned Zionist'. What's more, I told you you're a bloody sick excuse for humanity and therefore, you really shouldn't be surprised to see you're attacked so personally from time to time.

You leave my parents out of any of your rotten hate-filled posts, is that clear? You know nothing about them. You know nothing about me. I am not the issue here, nor is my parents. The issue supposedly under discussion is Israel's attack on Syria. Guess it's a lot easier to attack me than discuss that little breach of initernational law, isn't it?

Pompous? Define "pompous" and then apply it to the proper and more fitting people here.

>"Simply put you're a bloody excuse for humanity as you are quite fond of telling others".

Name them.

Oh, I'm posting under my real name, all right, but had I not been so naive when I first came here, I'd have called myself something more scary; for instance, "tough Canadian", and you DON'T want how tough we are!!!

Suffice to say even our house pets (cats included) have been known to remove extremities from those that attack their owners (yes, even verbally), and when I post a picture of Freedom, you'll run for bloody cover. Brave heart you won't be.

God forbid that I call you "laddie". Aaaaahhh. Did I miscaluate there? You're not a he but a she? And God forbid that I had added 'dear". Why would I, in retrospect, think you were either? In fact, why would I have addressed you at all?

> "Who do you think you are?"
Hey, I can't tell you that. You'd race off this Board so fast you'd forget to take your "anti" with you.

< "You're a bloody cretin, every bit as your buddy, Concerned Zionist".
Get a grip, man/woman. There are no "cretins" in the case of A Concerned Zionist and myself. Whilst a "cretin" he certainly is not, I am told my dear friend, A Concerned Zionist, is one hell of a lad when it comes to driving a bulldozer. I'm going to ask him to teach me the inner workings of same should I meet up with him at a house demolition in Gaza.

I assume your continued use of the word "bloody" is deliberate?

Just remember that unlike your beloved Israel, I am not into pre-emptive strikes, but once I'm attacked, as I was by you and your equally dispicable comrades, I react accordingly.

Funny how you first try to wriggle out of the personal fight by mentioning in passing Israel's attack on AN ISLAMIST TERRORIST TRAINING FACILITY WITHIN SYRIA (Not an attack "on Syria", you bloody liar. You twisted what had really happened and are pretending what had occurred was a breach, while it was in accordance with int'l law, you asshole.), only to immediately return to the personal fight and spew all kinds of nonesense. Boy, you crack me up!

Please don't try to speak for all Canadians. I know a few who would puke at reading your almost entirely anti-Israeli vitriol. Don't think for a moment that your cuteness makes me and others forget what a crummy excuse for an unfair, dishonest, one-sided asshole you are when it comes to Israeli and Zionist matters.

As long as there are sorry "people" like yourself who assail Israel unfairly and dishonestly, that country will keep seeming to you as my beloved when you see me defend it.

Israel should use its nuclear warheads to turn Mecca and Medina into radioactive craters, then the Muslims will realize their Allah is impotent, and convert to Judaism!

Dear Gutgork Porkrindstein,
I don't really know who the hell you are, but you should maybe consider seeing someone about your drinking problem. You pretend that you happen to be Jewish, but a Jew would never wish harm on innocent people just because they are members of a different faith. You pretend to be a Zionist, but a Zionist would never try to convert people to Judaism, a religion he himself does not understand and whose humane precepts he finds impossible to respect or understand. If not for the US taxdollars we rely on, we Zionists probably wouldn't mind nuking a place simply because of political reasons, and our regime is in fact in possession of WMD's which didn't even exist in Iraq.
So I don't know who you are, but I suggest you lay off the vodka before writing your posts.


Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist

Can't read? Repeat after me. This is a thread about Israel's unprovoked attack on Syria not about Angie and her family.

I note you are echoing the crap that the Israeli spokespeople stand before the television cameras and sprout, you know, the "war on terrorism", the "terrorist training camp", and whining about "self defence". We know it off by heart. My only question is how can they continue to do this and keep a straight face?

The reality is there was no proof presented that this was, indeed, a "training camp" for "terorists" except a film alleging by Israel that it was. That is not enough for me, and it should not be enough for the international community.

I also can conclude from your outrageous remarks that you did not listen to the comments of the international community following this blatant strike. In fact, the only country that withheld its displeasure that I'm aware of was israel's only friend, the US, whose involvement with, and financial aid to, Israel over the past many decades is one of the primary reasons there is a conflict to begin with. Go mull over that for a while.

l bet you do know a few Canadians with your own narrow views. Happily they are few and do not reside inmy area of the country. I don't know them, nor would I ever want to.

I've seen them on Canadian television hurling abuse at the decent Israeli women who were fighting for justice and human rights for Palestinians last spring. And then the Friends of Israel, or whatever they're calling themselves nowadays, had the audacity to scream at CBC News for showing that footage.

I've read some of the hatred and abuse that was hurled at CBC's courageous correspondent, Neil MacDonald, throughout the five years he spent covering this bloody mess, and the demands that CBC replace him with someone "favourable" to Israel.

Fat chance that was going to happen! CBC stood firm against the onslaught, and Neil finished out his five year term. Intelligence, truth, and courage wins out every time over lies and deceit.

And I can certainly state that our Canadian Government does not, and never has, recognized permanent Israeli control over the territories occupied in 1967 (Golan Heights, West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza Strip) and has opposed all unilateral actions intended to predetermine the outcome of negotiations, and this includes home demolition and other infrastructure.

Our government maintains that this behaviour is incompatible with the Fourth Geneva Convention to which Israel is a signatory. (Ye'ah, as if that has ever meant anything to Israel!)

Of course, if one really wants to know what is going on right now with Israel, one could point to the fact that a few weeks ago the UN human rights rapporteur, John Dugard, in his report, condemned the wall as being in violation of human rights and an annexation of lands; the day after that, Israel declared in its arrogant and defiant fashion, that it was going to continue to build the "barrier".

And, as well, let's not forget that there has not been a freeze on settlements; on the contrary, didn't we just read a week or so ago about approximately 600 more homes being built in Occupied Territories? I will have more on this and the "barrier" (what a misnomer) in an appropriate thread later. Count on it.

In the meantime what is going to happen to the to 1500 plus peoples who were left homeless over the past two days when Israeli tanks and other US provided weaponry blew up in Rafah under the pretext of looking for "tunnels". Yes, I am using quotation marks here and throughout because I am quoting the Israeli government/military (although there are those who would argue that the Government and Army are one).

Now I suggest that you go find someone else to irritate. My time is too valuable to be spent iindulging in non-productive conversation with you. If you plan on continuing your rants, that's your perogative. There won't, however, be a response from me.

Some things never change.

We'll see whether or not you reply.

Please dear intellectual prodigy, explain in no uncertain terms how Angie is a bloody cretin. She presents her views in well thought out prose,with quotes and names to back up what she states. How can she be a cretin when in fact it is her view that you find objectionable?

and get rid of your pro-Palestinian and/or anti-Israeli fixation or enertia.

Perhaps calling her a cretin was charitable, since that term is probably inaccurate and doesn't do her justice. She is indeed something of a bloody cretin, but also a dishonest, unfair and evil spirited truth denier and liar. She refuses to be convinced by irrefutable evidence when it's presented to her. Examples abound.
Here are 3 examples:
1. She insists on calling the separation barrier being erected a "wall", even though she has been shown that less than 10% of it consist of wall and the rest are fences.
2. "Anti-Angie" tried to teach her that it was the Arabs who first occupied historic Israel at about 635 AD when some indigenous Jews were still living there, not the other way around (i.e., the land wasn't ancestral Palestinian land). But Saint Angie refused to accept this historical truth and asked AA if he was there in 635 AD...
3. She insists there no tunnels were expose by the IDF during the recent operation in the Gaza strip even though 3 tunnels were exposed.

Forgive me if I don't fall all over her for her excellent English. She also finds MY views objectionable but cannot refute my corrections of her statements.

Sir, you have to go to certain websites if you want to get to learn the facts as the have happened (hint: some of them are those the editors loath). I'm sure though that most of the facts aren't to your liking,. I wonder to what extent you're the type of person who doesn't want to be confused with facts.

This is Thanksgiving here in Canada! My second favourite holiday. So I'm being lazy.

Yes, with respect to "Anti Angie", ex of this Board, he did, indeed, say the following:

"Arabs stole land from the jews starting back circa 635 AD when they invaded the land of Israel aka Palestine".

This is, of course, quite different from what 'anti-bullshit" wrote above.

And I did, indeed, retort at the time::

"Oh, is that a fact, laddie? And you were there, right, in 635 AD?"

See: http://www.indybay.org/news//2003/09/1645223_comment.php

(Note: If this doesn't work, don't be alarmed. They seldom do for me for some unknown reason!)

Remember, however, that rarely did I take "anti angie" seriously as you will see if you read our exchanges. Even when he tried to be malicious, he failed miserably, poor lad!

Certainly after watching the wholesale destruction of Rafah over the weekend on CBC and BBC World News, it's going to be pretty difficult for Israel to prove this was a search for the infamous tunnels, not when 1500 homes were levelled, agricultural lands destroyed, etc., etc. , and the eight Palestinians killed, and numerous others injured.

Of course, whilst the UN is talking about the wholesale disaster, once again Israel is telling us not to believe our own eyes.

Typical, especially when you remember that the monster wall goes all the way to Rafah. Ye'ah, a trumped up reason to clear the camp for use as a buffer zone would be my guess. Tunnels are always a convenient excuse.

Glad you don't think I am a "cretin", bloody or otherwise, and if you're writing from Canada, I hope you're having a great Thanksgiving. If not, I hope you will enjoy your own Thanksgiving when it arrives.

And all the rest of you out there as well! Cheers!

Actually, tunnels ARE a convenient excuse. So is the intifada. So is arafat. So is hamas. So is islamic jihad. SO is the fact that over 50% of palestinians, according to every single poll from every single source that has been released, approve of the continuation of the intifada against israel.

Palestinians seem to want to provide as many "convenient excuses" as possible for Israel to continue doing exactly what they're doing. The longer the intifada continues, the more permanent settlements israel should make.

P.S. "1500 homes?" Hah. Yeah right. Stop exaggerating, thanks.

The Israeli incursion into the Rafah refugee camp was a noble and glorious battle fought by our IDF stormtroopers against a hostile Palestinian civilian population. Our 'boys in green' heroically demolished homes, shot children, and terrorized the villainous refugees. We destroyed over 3 tunnels used by militants to smuggle in weapons from hostile Arabic regimes. Weapons to kill civilians are only OK if they are supplied from America, to Tel Aviv. Luckily we stopped the smuggling of murderous RPG's, and can now peacefully collect our US supplied helicopters with friendly hellfire missiles.
Correctly, as actually so eloquently stated, it is a lie that we destroyed 1500 homes. We only made 1500 Palestinians homeless, according to the UN. Since in our Zionist eyes the Palestinians are lesser people, we conclude that no harm was done and we demand that the matter be closed and never mentioned again.
The Palestinian intifada, Hamas, and Yasser Arafat are pathetic excuses made by an ungrateful population, who just don't understand that Israel has a right to steal their lands, deprive them of food, and occupy their homes. Israel must always be satisfied. Our settlers need to feel welcome on the stolen land on which they live. Our IDF soldiers should feel safe pushing around Palestinians at roadblocks and destroying their homes, without having to put up with insensitive and anti-zionist remarks by the ISM, the UN, and others who falsely believe that not only Israelis are worthy of human dignity. Israeli politicians should feel safe throwing Palestinians off their lands and shelling refugee camps (Lebanon, 1982), without having to risk terrorist reprisals in Tel Aviv.
The Palestinians need to recognize that they are below the good people of Israel in every category, and should submissively watch as we steal their homes and lands from them. Their children need to recognize the fact that their families are not worth anything and that it is alright when they are harassed at checkpoints and go live in poverty, relying on minimum wage jobs in Israel to survive. Then our soldiers will not be forced to open fire into their angry demonstrations and break their bones with wooden clubs, unless of course it is just for their well needed recreation.
The longer the intifada, the more permanent settlements Israel should make. And when the uprising ends, we will continue building, just as we did before 1987. The Palestinians should accept our settlements, roadblocks, economic bullying and other conditions that no Israeli should ever be forced to live under.
When the Palestinians accept that Israel has a right to dominate and humiliate them, there will be a true, Zionist-friendly peace in the Middle East.

Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist

Ignoring "concerned zionist's" idiotic trolling and getting right to the point:

When Palestinians accept that Israel isn't leaving, and that a peaceful state next to Israel would have been and still is the better option than intifada and terrorism, there will eventually be a true, zionist-friendly peace in the middle east.

Is it a coincidence that the "pro-palestinian" groups ALSO usually call for breaking up Israel as a jewish homeland? Not at all.

As we speak right now, the Israeli tanks have returned to Rafah. Ye'ah, about an hour ago. Wow! Next thing we'll be hearing about an unprovoked attack on Egypt, will we?

Yes, I meant to say 1500 (above) were rendered homeless. According to Peter Hansen, the Commissioner General of UN Relief and Works Agency (Unrwa), however, there have been some 120 buildings demolished to date. Poor Peter Hansen. What a God awful job he has! Let's not forget he was in Jenin in April 2002.

Well, I daresay that figure will increase overnight, won't it?

Israel stated that "several buildings were destroyed, with the military targeting only structures used by militants".

Oh, really? So how does that jive with refugee camp resident, Ayman Abu Shannaloh, who told BBC News that:

"I refused to leave, but then they threatened to kill me with machine guns -- in 30 minutes our house was as flat as the land".

Ye'ah, like Jenin and elsewhere besides. And still we're asked not to believe the evidence of our own eyes.

The truth is that "several" does not begin to cover it, not the massive and wholesale destruction of property and land we saw on our evening newscasts.

And where does the destruction of farm land come into play here? Next thing we'll be told the refugees of Rafah are growing weapons in their olive grooves, for God's sakes, and that's why they had to be destroyed.

Go ahead and sneer. Listen to the Israeli spokespeople talking to the media, and you'll hear comments equally as outrageous and equally disbelieving. (Just like the one mentioned about about "several".)

Ever wonder where Israel stores its weapons? Curious, that. No one ever mentions it. How does Israel lug back its tanks, and missiles, and helicopter gun boats when it goes on a buying spree in the US Ahh, no tunnels for Israel, I bet.

Nope, it can purchase whatever its little heart desires, and take it back however it chooses. It's allowed to have weapons, you see, whilst God forbid the Palestinians are allowed to defend themselves and their property.

In the meantime hundreds of refugees of Rafah tonight are living in tents, their homes rubble, their possessions rubble, and when the tanks pull out again, hundreds more will join the dispossessed.

And here we are, the world at large, sitting back and doing nothing.

quoting you
"And here we are, the world at large, sitting back and doing nothing."


perhaps Angie you feel incredulous because most of the civilized world disagrees with your attitude towards Palestinians and their terrorism. No matter how you twist it, and you do/will, the Palestinian 'government' has let their people down. They have allowed their fringe lunatic groups to run amok. You'll disagree and place the blame on Israel, that is what you do ad-nauseum. But, I suppose everyone needs a purpose, and you have yours.

Blaming Israel must be a nasty habit I picked up from Israel, itself, and its ardent defenders. Always blame somebody else is the Israeli motto. Surely you are aware of that?

The leaders of the Palestinian peoples didn't let their people down. They had plenty of help. The people of the Occupied Territories were discarded decades ago by an evil and oppressive occupier who has, as the years go by, gotten more and more aggressive and more and more murderous, establishing facts on the ground, leaving Palestinians homeless and/or dead, mained for life, letting them become impoverished. All of this so they'll move on, the Deir Yassin revisited, and brand them as terrorists/militants if they stand and fight for their lives and homes.

You may consider that fringe fanatic groups are running wild in the territories, which is essentially what you said. I look upon them as fighting for the freedom of their people and defending their squalid little patch of earth. And if the Palestinians had a regular army with all the attendant weaponry that Israel has, then there would be no need to partake of the horrific suicide bombing tactic, would there?

To read some of the stuff printed here and elsewhere, one, if one didn't know better, would foolishly believe that Israel is without blame. Not! It has its own terrorism, doesn't it, "bc"? Its own state terrorism that it practices daily on the peoples of the Occupied Territories, whilst always blaming the oppressed and occupied. Or someone else. Last week it was Syria and Lebanon. As I said above, sooner or later it will be Egypt or Jordan or it will convince the US war mongers to attack Iran as it did Iraq.

Israel has the wherewithal to do something about this bloody mess, but it refuses to do anything except cause more murder and destruction. Even whilst saying he was agreeing to the so-called road map, Sharon was lying; even as the great charade of the outpost removal was being played out for television consumption, he was lying because as we all know, there are no "outposts" removed, not ot mention the 80 or so that were required under the terms and conditionis of the road map, and as soon as one or two were removed, they were set up somewhere else the following night.

One of the reasons Abbas resigned was because of Israel's failure to show any interest in the road map requirements it was supposed to abide by. Guess it was too busy assassinating so called militants during the hudna.

Now it's destroying another refugee camp, and lands, and homes, and people's lives. It's got to be destroying something or someone, doesn't it?

And tonight again in Rafah the dispossessed are consigned to tents amidst the rubble, their homes and possessions dust.

Uri Avnery, whose courageous and compassionate heart brings tears to the eyes of those blessed to even read his works, much less have an autographed picture of him over one's computer desk, wrote in his article, "A Disaster Foretold" back in September:

"And the people of Israel? The poor, brainwashed, despairing, and apathetic people do not intervene. The silent, bleeding majority behaves as if all this does not concern them and their children. They are following Sharon as the children followed the Pied Piper right into the river. The thundering silence is disasterous. In order to prevent the disaster, it is our duty to break it".

see:
http://www.gush-shalom.org/archives/article267.html

Reining in Sharon would be a start. Reining in the IDF would be equally helpful.

The rest of the civilized world has, I'm afraid, learned a long time ago that there is little it can do with respect to the actions of Israel. There's resolution after resolution, condemnation after condemnation, demands upon demands, and just last week, the rest of the world expressed anger over the unprovoked attack on Syria.

I wonder how you would feel about all of this if it were happening to you? Bet you're not sleeping in a tent tonight somewhere admidst the rubble of your home. Nor am I. How would you react if you were faced with such an eventuality? I damn well know what I'd do. Fight to the bitter end to save what's mine.

Actually, I'd be the happiest person in my little bit of earth tomorrow if there was a just and dignified peace, if the wrongs were righted, the wall destroyed, the farmlands resodded and replanted, the illegal settlements removed, the water rerouted back from where it was stolen from, the Jews only roads dismantled in and around the settlements, etc., etc.

And while I wait for that to happen, the even better news is that there is a Higher Power who will, in due course, deal with this web of lies and deceit. There is still a God and if, and when,. all else fails, it's comforting to know that He is there!

She really likes to spew sanctimonious BS. Not that she has proven "bc" wrong. At least she feels better now.

Israel stated that "several buildings were destroyed, with the military targeting only structures used by militants".
Oh, really? So how does that jive with refugee camp resident, Ayman Abu Shannaloh, who told BBC News that: "I refused to leave, but then they threatened to kill me with machine guns -- in 30 minutes our house was as flat as the land".

- That Ayman's house or a nearby one was used by militants. easy enough.

> Ever wonder where Israel stores its weapons? Curious, that. No one ever mentions it. How does Israel lug back its tanks, and missiles, and helicopter gun boats when it goes on a buying spree in the US Ahh, no tunnels for Israel, I bet.

> You are comparing the israelis to the militants. that is an invalid comparison.
Surely even you accept that the militant organizations that wish to "kill every jew in israel" should be disarmed.

> Nope, it can purchase whatever its little heart desires, and take it back however it chooses. It's allowed to have weapons, you see, whilst God forbid the Palestinians are allowed to defend themselves and their property.

-China has nukes but tibet doesnt. however it owould be totally irresponsible if we were to start shipping nukes off to tibet in the hope of "evening the fight". Of course fortunately the tibetans would send them back with a note saying "are you insane?"

And here we are, the world at large, sitting back and doing nothing.

- in terms of bang for your buck you would do better to encourage us to invade congo or zimbabwae etc etc

> Always blame somebody else is the Israeli motto. Surely you are aware of that?

Go on show us where that is written down? did the israeli consulate tell you that?

> The leaders of the Palestinian peoples didn't let their people down. They had plenty of help.

Note that your second sentance is not evidence regarding your first sentance. The amount of "help" you have is not evidence regarding whether you "let your people down".

> letting them become impoverished.

The palistinian economy used to be quite good under israel somthing happened .. and it got worse. The big change was an increace of "militant activity". If you dispute that militant activity my cause people to become impoverished show me the people with a booming economy and rampant militant activity.

> I look upon them as fighting for the freedom of their people and defending their squalid little patch of earth.

That is what ALL of the militants think. From Osama bin ladin to anyone else you care to mention. If you declare terrorism to be morally rightious then you open the flood gates.

> And if the Palestinians had a regular army with all the attendant weaponry that Israel has, then there would be no need to partake of the horrific suicide bombing tactic, would there?

- No they would Nuke the middle east into a wasteland and release a swarm of bio weapons to boot. Do you really want every person in the middle east to die a horrible death? That is sick.
Why on earth would you bring up the above scenario as an alternitive?

> Not! It has its own terrorism, doesn't it, "bc"? Its own state terrorism

- the international definition of the word terrorism does not allow for that interpretation. You can call it a war crime if you want or a human rights abuse, these are terms for state actions.Besides the israelis are trying to institute stability as most states do as opposed to the militants who want to encourage anarchy.


> that it practices daily on the peoples of the Occupied Territories, whilst always blaming the oppressed and occupied. Or someone else. Last week it was Syria and Lebanon. As I said above, sooner or later it will be Egypt or Jordan or it will convince the US war mongers to attack Iran as it did Iraq.

This is the sort of thing that peopel say when they want to be able to blame Israel for any event that happens in the middle east in the future. note how you are covering your bases saying "israel will do somthing bad" so then if somthing bad does happen you can go "see it happened , I told you so so it must have been israel who did it" even if there is no connection in reality.

> Israel has the wherewithal to do something about this bloody mess, but it refuses to do anything except cause more murder and destruction.

A) You dont seem to understand the militants.
B)a democratic govt doesnt have as much ppower as you think. It is very difficult for a govt to sit there while its people get bombed and do nothing.

You say
> "because as we all know, there are no "outposts" removed"
and then you say
>" and as soon as one or two were removed"
you are CONTRADICTING yourself

> One of the reasons Abbas resigned was because of Israel's failure to show any interest in the road map requirements it was supposed to abide by.

The big one however was that he was going to be killed by fatah. (they called him a traitor) the VERY small one(relitively speaking) was that he didnt know if he could get much further with israel.

> I wonder how you would feel about all of this if it were happening to you? Bet you're not sleeping in a tent tonight somewhere admidst the rubble of your home. Nor am I. How would you react if you were faced with such an eventuality? I damn well know what I'd do. Fight to the bitter end to save what's mine.

- Actually i would not (given the same situation). And I am surprised you are so quick to sacrifice your principles and move to a ends justifies the means when you reject such arguments elsewhere.

> Actually, I'd be the happiest person in my little bit of earth tomorrow if there was a just and dignified peace

Those militants are standing in the way of that peace even more than sharon is. (not that sharon is a good person to be negotiating peace deals)

Scottie, I just noted this massive spiel here, so if I leave something out, don't beat me up.

>>>> I prefer to believe UN's Peter Hansen's suggestion that there were 120 or more homes demolished. I prefer to believe the person who told BBC what happened to him when he refused to leave. I prefer believe the evidence of my own eyes. And after last night's incursion, there will be additional loss of property. End of discussion on that point.

>>>> If the Palestinains had an army, as I stated before, there would be no need for militants. The idea of one state with every conceivable weapon (and if I inadvertently left out a few that are currently being made, forgive my lapse here) and another supposed future state (ye'ah, we won't hold our breath waiting) has nothing but rudimentary weapons that's one hell of an equal playing field, isn't it?

>>>> Why are you dragging China and Tibet into this? We are talking about Israel and Palestine. Every time anyone here says anything about Israel, someone is always bound to wail "but what about?" In your case, China and Tibet. I don't give a damn right now about China and Tibet at this moment. If there is a thread here that discusses China and Tibet, then I'll read it, and study it, and comment. You're simply changing the subject, trying to drag another country into the mix as if their conduct, or lack thereof, justifies what Israel is doing.

>>>> I agree with you it would be a lot easier to invade the Congo and Zimbabwe. And they will defend against a nuclear power, how? They will defend against missiles, how? Impoverished, internal tribal and regional civil wars. Not a good comparison.

>>>> With respect to blaming Israel, God forbid that we do so. However, ever since I started following this dispicable mess, I've yet to hear an Israeli spokesperson accept blame for anything. If you are aware of anything let us all know, please!

>>>> In the meantime, if someone like Uri, or Israell Shamir, or Ran HaCohen bravely points out the truth, they are branded as liars just as we are. Astonishing doesn't begin to cover it.

>>>> With respect to impoverishment of the Palestinian peoples, this has been ongoing since before the Oslo Accords. The land thefts, water thefts, building of settlements, destruction of homes, and destruction of farms and groves didn't just start yesterday. But it sure as hell has continued with a vengence, hasn't it?

>>>> Or are you telling us you haven't seen the devastation of olive groves by the infamous Israeli bulldozers? The devastation on the faces of the people who, for generations, harvested their crops. How dare you sit there and blame this blatant destruction of life and property and livelihood on militants or anyone else? If you have an excuse for this behaviour, let us know it because I sure as hell haven't been able to come up with one.

>>>> And still with the impoverishment of Palestinians, just last week we saw the destruction the wall is causing to the livelihood of these people. We saw how they couldn't access their crops, and how, once they managed to get through, they were only allowed so many minutes to pick their product. You may think this is appropriate behaviour for the so-called democracy Israel purports to be, Scottie, but those of us looking on don't share your views.

>>>> Ah, yes. Need I remind you, ole chap, that Osama bin Laden is a product of the US? That the Taliban likewise were the great friends of the US, and lest not forget ole Saddam who was allowed to gas whoever he wanted as long as Iran lost the war. Suffering from short memory syndrome, are you?

>>>> So you are essentially saying that Israel does have nuclear capabilities. I'm always amused (if one can ever be amused about anything re this bloody mess) how, when it comes to "nukes" as you call them, Israel does not say "ye'ah" or "nay". But there you are, advising that should the Palestinians have nukes, they'd blow the entire mid east to bits. Did I mention nuclear weapons above? Don't recall. And as there is no confirmation, as i've stated above, for or against Israel's nuclear powers (hehehe), that comment is, as you like to say, "invalid".

>>>> NO, absolutely not! YOU can call it "a war crime" or you can call it "abuse of human rights". I shall continue to call it terrorism, and if you don't like it, well, then, cry me a river, why don't you? Go do a Yahoo search and see what shows up. Ye'ah, I was shocked myself.

>>>> So if you don't want us to blame Israel, who do we blame? Everyone else in the Middle East? Don't be daft, man. Israel's attack on Syria was unprovoked, and you can call it whatever you want. It was a military strike. Self defence again. Yes, and the sky is falling. I am not the only person in the world today who refuses to accept that Israel is blameless for what's happening in the Middle East.

>>>> The United Nations, who was such a good friend of Israel because Mr. Annan didn't mention "massacre" in the "report" re Jenin (remember that??) has condemned Israeli actions going back to 1953 (or maybe before that). Every ciivilized country a few weeks ago condemned Israel's attack on Syria. (With the exception of the United States, of course, and we'll discuss my views on the US and Israel in hopefully an appropriate thread here).

>>>> No one will be surprised at anything Israel does to keep the middle east a hell hole. We've seen it all before. It has a war criminal for a Prime Minister, an out-of-control army, and spokespeople who change almost daily because, as i said before, how can they stand before a TV camera and keep a straight face as they spew their propaganda? If you have proof to the contrary, bring it on. You'll have a tough time proving that the rest of the world en masse (with the exception of the US, of course) is lying!

>>>> Why would you take it upon yourself to assume I don't understand "militants"? I understand them as much as you or anyone else does who isn't one. And a democratic government has as much power as it bloody well wants, and in the case of the current government and army in Israel, it has too much. Didn't read my comments from Uri's article above, did you? His opinion on the state of the Israeli public right now is more believable than something being spouted by those who prefer to ignore the reality that's taking place. Go back and read his comments again.

>>>> "It is very difficult for a government to sit there while its people get bombed and do nothing".

Glad you see it that way. Now tell me why you can't, and won't, apply that principle to the Palestinians? Or do you expect them to be bombed and do nothing about it but sit there and thank the IDF?

>>>> Don't accuse me of contradicting myself. The road map called for the removal of at last 80 outposts (if you don't want to call them settlements). A handful were removed, with the cameras rolling and all the settlers raging about for public consumption, and the following day or whenever there they were, right back up elsewhere. Go read Uri's "The Best Show in Town", which can be found at:

http:.//http://www.gush-shalom.org/archives/article255.html

And having read that, come back and discuss settlements/outposts, etc.

>>>> Poor Abbas never had a prayer in hell of doing anything in his role as puppet for Israel and the US. No doubt a decent human being, he was smart enough to realize that nothing was going to happen here. I said "one of the reasons" why he resigned. And you may call it "little". I prefer to look at it in light of what could have happened had Israel and the US showed it had the interests of the road map at heart.

>>>> You recall, don't you, whilst the hunda was in place for those several weeks, how Sharon and his IDF were assassinating Hamas leaders and any other militants, leaders or otherwise, they could locate, usually on a busy street wherein they knew, or had to know, that they'd be risking civilian lives? Ah, but what did that matter? File it under "collateral damage" and move on.

>>>> If the US gave a fig about Abbas, it would have forbidden the continuation of the infamous wall, especially when Abbas brought his concerns to Bush re same. But no. The US and Israel gave the man nothing at all to take back to his people. All the requirements for the so-called road map were placed firmly on the shoulders of Abbas and the Palestinians. That is no way to move towards peace.

>>>> I can just see someone now coming to your home and attacking your family and property whilst you sat around and applauded. You dare get sanctimonious with me because I said I'd defend my home against all comers? Believe it, mister. It is perfectly legal under Canadian law to protect ourselves, our families, and our homes. I can only assume that other democratic countries in the world allow its citizens to do the same thing.

>>>> Or are you saying that the Palestinians are not allowed to defend themselves? Is that what you're getting at here? I am getting this horrific feeling that you believe there are two sets of rules, one for Israelis and one for Palestinians. Is that what you're saying? Please assure you that you are not insinuating that.

>>>> Bet it cost you a lot to admit that Sharon was a part of the problem, oh, but, of course, a "small part". Ye'ah, sure. However, the US is a major part of the problem here, money and weapons notwithstanding.

>>>> Every time anything happens, no matter how big or how small, I wait with bated breath for the US to say something, anything, to give the Palestinians, and the Arab world in general, some hope. But there is nothing at all. Not a damn thing.

>>>> Israel sneaks in at night and drops a monstrous bomb on a residential building, killing 14 people, including 9 children, and hundred injured, and Bush says it was "heavy handed". When a Palestinian blows anyone up, it's terrorism. What kind of utter hypocrisy is that?

>>>> I'm not the only one waiting, and I daresay we'll be waiting forever, for the US to condemn any of the atrocities committed by Israel. And that is very, very sad. .

>>>> So there it is. Syria is attacked in an unprovoked fashion by Israel, and, lo, the US blames Syria, stating Israel cannot be constrained in defending itself. The utter gall! Implying, of course, that no one else is allowed to defend itself.

>>>> That kind of bias bodes well for peace in the middle east, doesn't it, Scottie? But peace is not what what this is all about. It never was.

Sorry, folks. This is longer than I expected. Forgive???

Dear Angie,
How can you be so antizionist? Why can't you accept that Israel has a right to do whatever it wants to, whether this involves stealing land or killing Palestinian children? You must realize that Israel is always right, a fact recognized by the civilized world that Israel recognizes- namely, America.
Yasser Arafat is to blame for everything! He forced the poor Israelis to invade the West Bank and Gaza in 1987, and it is a well known fact that the settlers never would have came to steal Palestinian farmland if terrorists from Hamas didn't threaten to blow up Tel Aviv with a nuclear bomb. Yasser Arafat is responsible for everything Israel did to the Palestinian people. His Fatah militants held guns to the heads of Israeli soldiers and forced them to beat, shoot and imprison Palestinian men, women, and children during the first intifada. Using terrifying brain control technology, Arafat forces Israeli bulldozer drivers to demolish Palestinian homes, when everyone knows they in reality come to build homes for civilians before being forced by Arafat to destroy them. Arafat uses technological terrorism to force hellfire missiles to discharge themselves from Israeli helicopters and hit Palestinians. Using a super powerful magnet (probably supplied by Iran, so it must now be bombed) , Arafat caused Israeli tanks and bulldozers to be drawn into the Jenin refugee camp and commit human rights abuses, against the will of their innocent Israeli drivers.
Yasser Arafat is also to blame for global warming, AIDS, and the 'I Love You' computer virus. And he probably doesn't like pizza, either.
Dear Angie, you must realize that Israel is always innocent, whatever the human rights observers, the UN, and everyone else who is telling the truth about what is happening in the Middle East may say.
You don't need to know the truth. You need to back Israel.

Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist

Dear Angie,
How can you be so antizionist? Why can't you accept that Israel has a right to do whatever it wants to, whether this involves stealing land or killing Palestinian children? You must realize that Israel is always right, a fact recognized by the civilized world that Israel recognizes- namely, America.
Yasser Arafat is to blame for everything! He forced the poor Israelis to invade the West Bank and Gaza in 1967, and it is a well known fact that the settlers never would have came to steal Palestinian farmland if terrorists from Hamas didn't threaten to blow up Tel Aviv with a nuclear bomb. Yasser Arafat is responsible for everything Israel did to the Palestinian people. His Fatah militants held guns to the heads of Israeli soldiers and forced them to beat, shoot and imprison Palestinian men, women, and children during the first intifada. Using terrifying brain control technology, Arafat forces Israeli bulldozer drivers to demolish Palestinian homes, when everyone knows they in reality come to build homes for civilians before being forced by Arafat to destroy them. Arafat uses technological terrorism to force hellfire missiles to discharge themselves from Israeli helicopters and hit Palestinians. Using a super powerful magnet (probably supplied by Iran, so it must now be bombed) , Arafat caused Israeli tanks and bulldozers to be drawn into the Jenin refugee camp and commit human rights abuses, against the will of their innocent Israeli drivers.
Yasser Arafat is also to blame for global warming, AIDS, and the 'I Love You' computer virus. And he probably doesn't like pizza, either.
Dear Angie, you must realize that Israel is always innocent, whatever the human rights observers, the UN, and everyone else who is telling the truth about what is happening in the Middle East may say.
You don't need to know the truth. You need to back Israel.

Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist

>>>> I prefer to believe UN's Peter Hansen's suggestion that there were 120 or more homes demolished.

yes your probably right the isrelis probably meant 120 when they said "several".. several is a flippant term.

>>>> If the Palestinains had an army, as I stated before, there would be no need for militants.

- the problem is that there would still be a milita.
And palestine does have an army and there is still a milita.

--that's one hell of an equal playing field, isn't it?

We DONT WANT an equal playing field. because that would mean war. the only reason we dont have war is because the palistinians know they will looseand the israelis know they will win. Ambiguity in this is a cause of war.

>>>> Why are you dragging China and Tibet into this?

OK well if you gave a nuke to a SANE palistinian he would give it back to you and say "damn we cant start playing that game!!"

>>>> I agree with you it would be a lot easier to invade the Congo and Zimbabwe. And they will defend against a nuclear power, how? They will defend against missiles, how?

That is the POINT. you dont want them to defend. you want them to stop kiling their people.

>>>> Impoverished, internal tribal and regional civil wars. Not a good comparison.

You miss the point. the point is is is VERY difficult to do anything about israel and why are you (pl as in the left) wasting so much effort on it when there are countries where you CAN do somthing but you arent even trying

>>>> In the meantime, if someone like Uri, or Israell Shamir, or Ran HaCohen bravely points out the truth, they are branded as liars just as we are. Astonishing doesn't begin to cover it.

- You have not shown that they are always right and that israel is always wrong let alone proven individual examples

>>>> With respect to impoverishment of the Palestinian peoples, this has been ongoing since before the Oslo Accords.

- at one stage their economy was growing very nicely.

>>>> Or are you telling us you haven't seen the devastation of olive groves by the infamous Israeli bulldozers?

- now its growing badly. why? violence as used by both sides. the stuff the hamas people do hurts palistinians just as surely as the stuff the israelis do.

>The devastation on the faces of the people who, for generations, harvested their crops. How dare you sit there and blame this blatant destruction of life and property and livelihood on militants or anyone else?

If you punch someone and they punch you back there is a cause and effect.
The millitants have chosen to take a path where much property will be damaged searching for them for the chance of one day driving the jews into the sea.
Surely you dont think that suicide bobers represent "moderate palistinian points of view" these people are the ones who want the extreme options such as removing all jews.

>>>> And still with the impoverishment of Palestinians, just last week we saw the destruction the wall is causing to the livelihood of these people.

Before the closures etc the palestinian economy was generally Ok as was the israeli economy. now the israeli economy looses 15 gdp a year and the palistinian one looses 35% a year (or so).
stop the bombing and you solve the problem.

>>>> Ah, yes. Need I remind you, ole chap, that Osama bin Laden is a product of the US?

EVERYTHING is a product of the USA. You could draw a long chain of reasoning behind the USA creating ANYONE in the world with a combination of conspiricy theory and the fact that the US has its finger in every pie.
So your point is rubbish.

That the Taliban likewise were the great friends of the US

origionally there was nothing wrong with the taliban so saying "the US suported the taliban in the old days" actually is not a bad thing. Later a different group of people took over the taliban and it became more fundimentalist but even that isnt a reason to try to undermine someone in itself until sept 11.

>> and lest not forget ole Saddam who was allowed to gas whoever he wanted as long as Iran lost the war.

- What exactly would you have done in the US's situation? Basically hte US did withdraw suport from him after that.

> Suffering from short memory syndrome, are you?

- read a book.

>>>> So you are essentially saying that Israel does have nuclear capabilities.

- yes it has 200 nukes ..count them..
1.2..3.... 200
We all know it..
It is a pointless argument to talk about whether israel says they have them or not. we all know it. they just dont admit it for legal reasons.

>>> But there you are, advising that should the Palestinians have nukes, they'd blow the entire mid east to bits. Did I mention nuclear weapons above? Don't recall. And as there is no confirmation, as i've stated above, for or against Israel's nuclear powers (hehehe), that comment is, as you like to say, "invalid".

-- dont be ridiculous. You ewant to give alistinians nukes because you dont know if israel has them? DAMN IT WOMAN!!! we are talking about nukes here not candy this is serious!

>> I shall continue to call it terrorism.

Your using an inapprorporiate word but really who cares its just semantics.

>>>> So if you don't want us to blame Israel, who do we blame? Everyone else in the Middle East?

Blame everyone if you want.

> Don't be daft, man. Israel's attack on Syria was unprovoked, and you can call it whatever you want.

- Unprovoked? You might argue it was unjustified but yu cant say it was unprovoked.

>> I am not the only person in the world today who refuses to accept that Israel is blameless for what's happening in the Middle East.

- no one is suggesting they are blameless jsut that they dont deserve al the blame. So it is you who are taking the irational position.

> We've seen it all before. It has a war criminal for a Prime Minister,

- you havent proven that in a court yet.

> an out-of-control army

most diciplined army in the world jsut about

> If you have proof to the contrary, bring it on.

you never produce prof for your opinions. Its a bit comical really the false assumptions pepered through your posts.

> You'll have a tough time proving that the rest of the world en masse (with the exception of the US, of course) is lying!
-the rest of the world - as you put it - is just the UN representitives of those countries and what would they know? You would find out mroe by asking your Fisky pal than asking some UN representitive of some african despot

>>>> Why would you take it upon yourself to assume I don't understand "militants"? I understand them as much as you or anyone else does who isn't one.

- rubbish. It is possible to understand people or to not understand them depending on EQ and all sorts of other factors.

> And a democratic government has as much power as it bloody well wants

DUH despots have more power than democratic leaders.. capeshe?

> Go back and read his comments again.

this is not some vague opinion on israel its a fact about government.

> Glad you see it that way. Now tell me why you can't, and won't, apply that principle to the Palestinians?

If you justify the state and the militants you have a constant problem and you approve of it. if you support the militants you have a constant problem in that someone is always the underdog and has the right to be militant.

>> Or do you expect them to be bombed and do nothing about it but sit there and thank the IDF?

I expect them to have consistancy between their politics as a state and their military strategy as a people.

>>>> Don't accuse me of contradicting myself.

But you did. Your explination does not explain your contradiction.

>>I prefer to look at it in light of what could have happened had Israel and the US showed it had the interests of the road map at heart.

well this is a clear example of your perspective. where you IGNORE the major issue or the major problem in order to focus on where the israelis might have done somthing.
Do you see how a person with that perspective will always find one side guilty NO MATTER what the evidence is?
I could say. canada caused the problems in israel because well hey cannada could stop the conflict somehow. (there is probably a way) But that in no way means that israel and palestine are not also responsible infact much more responsible.

> All the requirements for the so-called road map were placed firmly on the shoulders of Abbas and the Palestinians. That is no way to move towards peace.

Rubbish.

>>>> I can just see someone now coming to your home and attacking your family and property whilst you sat around and applauded.

I would not kill their family just because they killed mine. I would also try to avoid putting my family in that danger where the above might hapen.
As to property. property isnt worth a life even of someone you dont like.

> You dare get sanctimonious with me because I said I'd defend my home against all comers? Believe it, mister. It is perfectly legal under Canadian law to protect ourselves, our families, and our homes.

- try it.... you might be surprised.

>>>> Or are you saying that the Palestinians are not allowed to defend themselves? Is that what you're getting at here?

If you arbitrarily give everyone the right to "defend themselves" against authority (you mean kill the authority) then you create a situation where you authorise anyone to kill anyone else.
I would be VERY reluctant to give that moral permission to anyone.

> I am getting this horrific feeling that you believe there are two sets of rules, one for Israelis and one for Palestinians. Is that what you're saying?

No israelis dont have the right to kill the police either. I dont see how oyu would have goten the impression that I was suggesting that.

>>>> Bet it cost you a lot to admit that Sharon was a part of the problem, oh, but, of course, a "small part".

- realy? you know I dont think much of sharon. so stop pretending you won a point when Ive told you same so many times.

> Ye'ah, sure. However, the US is a major part of the problem here, money and weapons notwithstanding.

- the US doesnt own israel its just has influence in the region as a major donator. In the absence of the donations the influence would not exist. the situation would however be basicaly the same.

>>>> Every time anything happens, no matter how big or how small, I wait with bated breath for the US to say something, anything, to give the Palestinians, and the Arab world in general, some hope. But there is nothing at all. Not a damn thing.

-bad things are hapening in arab countries too..

>>>> Israel sneaks in at night and drops a monstrous bomb on a residential building, killing 14 people, including 9 children, and hundred injured, and Bush says it was "heavy handed". When a Palestinian blows anyone up, it's terrorism. What kind of utter hypocrisy is that?

- terrorism refers to activities of individuals in order to promote terror. therefore it isrational not to cal it terrorism if you want to be able to use an incorect definition of terrorism just dont be surprised if the US state department doesnt folow your lead

>The utter gall! Implying, of course, that no one else is allowed to defend itself.

Syria could reasonably be upset at israel. they need to live with the total situation that exists between then and israel.

Unfortunately I don't. A little thing called work. However, let me quickly state a few comments here, and I'll move on.

>>>>> Of course, "we" (whoever "we" are) don't want a level playing field. God forbid that there is equality here. It's hysterical in a sad sort of way how a nation with one of the largest and best equipped armies in the world continues to lord it over one of the poorest people anywhere. Ye'ah, it's so much better that way, isn't it, Scottie? Then everyone knows who will win and who will be annihilated in advance. Well, pray, why am I not hearing anything about human rights and freedoms for the oppressed, occupied? Right! They don't matter, is that right? Let me state here and now everyone matters in this world. And again I will state that no one is better than anyone else. They may think it, but in the end, we'll all be dust, and it won't matter a tiddly.

>>>> What? Canada sending billions to Israel? Ye'ah, fat chance of that. Nor are we sending weaponry to Israel, if we could do so, which we can't. Don't be outrageous, Scottie. And I will state here emphatically, as I stated in another post in this same thread, that Canada's position on the Occupied Territories is very clear.

excuse the terrible spellling etc.. I have been in a hurry.

>>>>> Ye'ah, it's so much better that way, isn't it, Scottie? Then everyone knows who will win and who will be annihilated in advance.

- if everyone knows then the war will not be fought. Or at least only a small insane group will try to do anything.
terrorism for example is the preserve not of the hopeless but of those who feel assured of final victory such as osama. Osama does not expect to loose in the big scheme of things even if he himself dies.

Well, pray, why am I not hearing anything about human rights and freedoms for the oppressed, occupied? Right! They don't matter, is that right?

- putting words in my mouth. In fact it is you who is arbitrarily implying that israeli's dont matter because it might be "fair or moral" to kill them. I say no one has ever had a life so tough that I would accept them killing an unrelated person on purpose. As such there is no justification for random suicide bombing.
I also find it difficult to accept killing israeli soldiers UNLESS they were directly threatening you.

> Let me state here and now everyone matters in this world. And again I will state that no one is better than anyone else. They may think it, but in the end, we'll all be dust, and it won't matter a tiddly.

- you take my position and yet you argue against it?

>>> And I will state here emphatically, as I stated in another post in this same thread, that Canada's position on the Occupied Territories is very clear.

- Canada could send an army to fight on the side of the palistinians then the fact that it has not makes it 100% responsible for the situation in the middle east.. fair?
If you find that ridiculous then it is also ridiculous that israel is considered totally responsible.

Forgot to mention that I received an autographed photo from dear Uri. I stuck it over my computer desk so that I can look up and get inspiration any time. Of course, I am blessed!! He's such a marvellous example of all that is good and decent and just. And he can WRITE!!!

Dear Angie the Air-head,
How can you be such a dumbfuck? Why can't you accept that Israel has a right to defend itself, whether this involves blowing up tunnels or killing Palestinian terrorists? You must realize that Israel is mostly right, a fact recognized by the most of the civilized world that Israel recognizes.
Yasser Arafat is to blame for everything! He forced the poor Israelis to invade the West Bank and Gaza in 2001, and it is a well known fact that the IDF soldiers never would have came to confiscate Palestinian owned land if terrorists from Hamas didn't threaten to blow up children of Jewish residents therein. Yasser Arafat is actually responsible for everything Israel did to the Palestinian people. Now read the absurd charges that my morbid mind levels at the Israelis! I claim that Arafat's Fatah militants held guns to the heads of Israeli soldiers and forced them to beat, shoot and imprison Palestinian men, women, and children during the first intifada (never mind that many of those teenagers, women and men hurled rocks, Molotov cocktails and other dangerous objects at IDF soldiers and at Jewish residents before). What else do I say? Using terrifying brain control technology, Arafat forces Israeli bulldozer drivers to demolish Palestinian homes, when everyone knows they in reality come to build homes for civilians before being forced by Arafat to destroy them. Arafat uses technological terrorism to force hellfire missiles to discharge themselves from Israeli helicopters and hit Palestinians. Using a super powerful magnet (probably supplied by Iran, so it must now be bombed) , Arafat caused Israeli tanks and bulldozers to be drawn into the Jenin refugee camp and commit human rights abuses, against the will of their innocent Israeli drivers. I hope you all have had an excellent laugh courtesy of my witty imagination.
My Jew hatred drives me to sarcastically opin that Yasser Arafat is also to blame for global warming, AIDS, and the 'I Love You' computer virus. And he probably doesn't like pizza, either.
Dear Angie Air-head, you must realize that Israel is morally in the right, notwithstanding what most human rights observers, the UN, and others who pretend to be telling the truth about what is happening in the Middle East may say.
You don't need to know my "truth". You need to back Israel.

Heil Hitler!
- A concerned Zionist

Ban 'a concerned zionist'! No matter how much crap and cheap impersonations we throw at him, he continues to post on this board, mocking our racist zionist views! My nephew Joey A. keeps on impersonating his posts under my guidance (did you all see his newest masterpiece, 'if your'e happy and you know it, blame the troll'?), but that antizionist creep keeps on returning to make fun of us! We've started doing the same to Angie, and hopefully she will learn her lesson.
Ban ' A concerned Zionist' now! He is making us zionists look like a group of desperate twits!

"A concerned Zionist" is using my name and impersonating me, on top of impersonating Zionists which exist mainly within his own hate infested mind, and he uses the handle "Herzl II" to boot.

Let it be known that I do not post any of the sick crap that the troll known here as "A concerned Zionist" (what an oxymoron for a moron...) posts under my name.
I am in no way, shape or form related to a person known as "Herzl II".

That person needs help, the sooner the better.