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LOCAL PEACE GROUP INFILTRATED BY GOVERNMENT AGENT
by Mike Rhodes (MikeRhodes [at] Comcast.net)
Saturday Oct 4th, 2003 2:43 PM
Peace Fresno was infiltrated by an agent working for the Fresno Sheriff’s Department.
kilner.jpg
LOCAL PEACE GROUP INFILTRATED BY GOVERNMENT AGENT
By Mike Rhodes
October 4, 2003

Peace Fresno was infiltrated by an agent working for the Fresno Sheriff’s Department. Aaron Kilner, known by Peace Fresno activists as Aaron Stokes, attended several Peace Fresno meetings. Peace Fresno activist Nicholas DeGraff remembers him taking voluminous notes and several members say they saw him at peace vilgils held at Shaw and Blackstone. He was also on the bus local anti-globalization activists took to attend the WTO ministerial-level conference on Agricultural Science and Technology demonstration in Sacramento in June 2003.

Aaron Kilner died in a motorcycle accident on August 30, 2003. In his obituary in The Fresno Bee he was identified as a member of the Fresno County Sheriff’s department. The obituary went on to say that he was “assigned to the anti-terrorist team.” Local activists believe that this “anti-terrorist team” is, in fact, the Joint Terrorism Task Force (JTTF) that has recently been formed in this area.. When members of Peace Fresno saw the picture and read of Kilner’s association with law enforcement they began piecing the story together.

The infiltration by law enforcement of progressive community groups in Fresno and throughout the country has long been used to disrupt legitimate political work. This disruption occurs by sowing seeds of mistrust among members, agents often promote discord within the group, and sometimes encourage illegal or violent actions. Agent provocateurs have been know to instigate violence at demonstrations, giving the police an excuse to attack protestors.

During the 1980's the Latin American Support Committee in Fresno, who worked to end U.S. intervention in Central America, was repeatedly harassed by government agents. Undercover agents attempted to disrupt meetings by polarizing members about the use of violence and encouraging the group to raise money for weapons which were needed by Central American revolutionaries. Agents approached individual members and asked them to engage in illegal and violent activities. The local police and the FBI spent years investigating and harassing LASC without uncovering any illegal activities.

A few years ago, the Fresno Police Department and the CSUF police conspired to violate anti-sweatshop activists rights by infiltrating United Students Against Sweatshops. A police agent attended the group’s meetings and monitored email messages of anti-sweatshop activists. The distorted information that this agent passed on to her superiors to justify her job greatly exaggerated the extent of a planned demonstration at a local mall. This mis-information resulted in the police’s use of riot clad officers, a police helicopter, and over one hundred officers to arrest 19 peaceful protestors at the Fashion Fair mall. The presence of the informant was discovered during the course of criminal proceedings of the Gap 19. All charges against the anti-sweatshop activists were later dismissed. For more information about this case see: http://www.fresnoalliance.com/home/GAP.htm

Ken Hudson, a long time activist with Peace Fresno, said that Kilner played a very quite role in the group. Other Peace Fresno activists also remembered him as being quite and added that he did not actively engage in political, tactical, or other discussions while attending the meetings.

According the California Constitution, law enforcement does not have the right to investigate and infiltrate groups unless they have a reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. If local law enforcement and the JTTF was using Kilner to investigate Peace Fresno, one has to ask - what else are they up to? Do they have agents imbedded in other community groups? Are they watching what people say at Churches and Mosques? Because of the Patriot Act, does law enforcement now believe they have the right to monitor what you do and say in your home? In your bedroom?

There have been several meetings between law enforcement and groups concerned about civil liberties, in the wake of September 11, 2001. One such meeting was held with Lt. Pat Farmer of the Fresno Police Department. Lt. Farmer told this group of community activists that there is nothing to prevent the police or JTTF members from investigating and interrogating community members. He suggested that the person being investigated might not even know he was talking to a police officer. “If the person doesn’t want to talk with us, they don’t have to,” Farmer said. At an earlier meeting, immediately after 9-11, an FBI agent told a group, of mostly immigrant rights activists, that anyone helping a group identified as a “terrorist group” by the United States government would be investigated as a potential terrorist. That was interpreted to mean that if you are working, for example, to support the Zapatistas in Chiapas, you might be investigated as a supporter of international terrorism. This FBI agent said that every agent in this area was now focusing on stopping the terrorist threat.

Another justification on the local war against terrorism comes from Fresno Police chief Jerry Dyer. He told community members that Fresno is a hotbed of terrorist activity and that is why the JTTF has been established in this area. He told this group that Fresno could have “sleeper cells,” that they are connected with illegal methamphetamine production to fund terrorist activities, and all of this is somehow related to radical Muslim extremists. While this story may seem far fetched for those of us who live in this area it was good enough to bring in millions of dollars in Federal anti-terrorism funds.

The Fresno Bee printed a story about the infiltration of Peace Fresno by law enforcement in their Friday, October 3 issue (see: http://www.fresnobee.com/local/story/7537174p-8449347c.html ). They printed a statement from Sherriff Pierce that said:

*************************************
Detective Aaron Kilner was a member of the FCSD Anti-Terrorism unit. This unit collects, evaluates, collates, analyzes, and disseminates information on individuals, groups, and organizations suspected of criminal or terrorist activities. This information meets the stringent federal and state guidelines for intelligence gathering and civil rights protections in order to prevent crime and protect the health and safety of residents of Fresno County and the State of California.

For the purpose of detecting or preventing terrorist activities, the Fresno County Sheriff's Department may visit any place and attend any event that is open to the public, on the same terms and conditions as members of the public generally. No information obtained from such visits shall be retained unless it relates to potential criminal or terrorist activities.

Peace Fresno was not and is not the subject of any investigation by the FCSD. The FCSD does not have any reports, files, rosters, or notes on Peace Fresno or it's (sic) meetings.

The FCSD is dedicated to protecting the citizens of Fresno County. The department will continue toutilize legal methods for collecting, evaluating, collating, analyzing, and disseminating criminal intelligence of terrorist and organized crime organizations to accomplish its mission, while respecting the constitutional rights of all persons.
Sincerely,
RP, Sheriff
*******************************************************************

The revelation that the Sheriff’s department placed an agent in Peace Fresno begs the question of what other groups are being investigated, what has happened to our civil liberties since 9-11, and how will the community respond to this attack against our civil liberties. Some activists and legal experts are claiming that state attorney general Bill Lockyer’s directive to California law enforcement, telling them not to collect intelligence on religious or political groups without evidence of criminal activity should be the law of the land. But, does State law override the Patriot Act?

A united community defending their Constitutional Rights to civil liberties will be the best defense against future attacks. The goal is to not only stop these current intrusions against peaceful and nonviolent groups engaged in civic participation but return the rights that were taken away with the passage of the Patriot Act. To find out how Fresno progressive groups respond to this incident you are invited to subscribe to the Community Alliance magazine, P.O. Box 5077, Fresno Ca 93755 ($35 a year) or visit them on their web site: http://www.fresnoalliance.com/home

For more information about Peace Fresno see their web site at: http://www.peacefresno.org

Comments  (Hide Comments)

by Cointelpro
Saturday Oct 4th, 2003 5:41 PM
1. Focus on racial or gender divisions in the group, attempt to polarize the group along those lines

2. Capitalize on existing personal tensions in the group, polarize the group along those lines

3. Introduce process violations or process confusions, attempt to close up a group or massively open in up in ways it has not been before,

4. Spread rumors about individuals in a group, again along lines of violence, by polarizing the group between people already predisposed to direct action and those who are not (liberals)

If these things are happening, remember that security culture and process are the two most important things. As long as everyone in the group adheres to that, the chance of infiltration being successful is nil, and the infiltrator will give up. Otherwise activities like this can paralyze a group indefinitely.
by repost
Saturday Oct 4th, 2003 7:01 PM
I'd start there - they are the ones who immediately went after the CATIC and exposed them after the Oakland protestors got shot. It was really surprising how the Tribune actually did something meaningful . . . probably someone who knew someone who got hospitalized or something. But maybe they just have a special interest. In any case, they may be interested in a follow-up on their other reports of groups being infiltrated and treated as terrorists.

Next I'd pay a visit to every city supervisor (demand it be put on the city agenda for a meeting), the mayor, Congressional Rep. and a letter and phone call to Frankenstein and Boxer (since they do nothing it isn't worth bothering with more than that for them).

Don't let up.

Thanks for posting this.

“The revelations in the Oakland Tribune story confirm our worse fears: CATIC is not only being used to gather and disseminate information about non-violent protestors but equates peaceful protest with terrorism itself,” said Mark Schlosberg, Police Practices Policy Director of the ACLU of Northern California. “For the past year and a half, we’ve been cautioning the Attorney General about the grave dangers to our basic freedoms posed by loosened standards for intelligence gathering and CATIC. It is now time that the Attorney General take strong action to protect Californian’s rights to free speech, assembly, and privacy.”
http://www.aclunc.org/pressrel/030520-lockyer.html
by Ann
Saturday Oct 4th, 2003 7:21 PM
What does the public officials in Fresno have to say about this? Surely there are some officials who don't believe in spying on groups in Fresno that are peaceful
by why the spam?
Sunday Oct 5th, 2003 12:06 AM
An otherwise informative report tainted by an advertisement at the end asking for money for the author of the article. Is this acceptable IMC practice?
by repost
Sunday Oct 5th, 2003 11:39 AM
And mentioned that the Fresno Bee had a good story . . . I couldn't find it on there (since it was from Friday . .. ) but found it linked on the Peace Fresno site:

Group alleges police scrutiny
Peace Fresno says late detective in anti-terror unit was at meetings.
By Diana Marcum
The Fresno Bee
(Published Friday, October 3, 2003, 10:41 AM)

He was the quiet guy. The one who came to Peace Fresno meetings, always sitting in the same spot, taking notes but never taking part in the discussions. For two months, ending in May, he sat through planning meetings, passed out anti-war fliers and went to rallies. He said his name was Aaron Stokes. When asked about his job, he said he was independently wealthy.

Members of Peace Fresno now say he was Aaron Kilner, an undercover sheriff's detective who died in an off-duty motorcycle accident Aug. 30.

Fresno County Sheriff Richard Pierce would not say whether Kilner attended meetings, but he said Peace Fresno "was not and is not the subject of any investigation by the Fresno County Sheriff's Department."

Pierce said his department "does not have any reports, files, rosters or notes on Peace Fresno or its meetings."

However, in a four-paragraph statement issued Thursday, he defended his department's legal right to send undercover officers to community meetings.

"For the purpose of detecting or preventing terrorist activities, the Fresno County Sheriff's Department may visit any place and attend any event that is open to the public, on the same terms and conditions as members of the public generally."

In a time when issues over security versus personal liberties are at the forefront of a national debate, members of Peace Fresno say an undercover officer at a political meeting brings the controversy close to home.

In a city where the same small group of people belongs to various peace, feed-the-hungry and environmental groups, Peace Fresno is the vocal branch of Fresno liberalism. It organizes peace marches and book sales.

"The idea of anyone in Peace Fresno doing anything illegal is laughable," says their attorney, Catherine Campbell. "They're Unitarian schoolteachers."

It was a schoolteacher who first suspected a member of Peace Fresno was really a Fresno County sheriff's detective. When Kilner died, his picture ran in the newspaper. In the story, the sheriff's department identified the 26-year-old as a member of the anti-terrorism unit.

Camille Russell, then president of Peace Fresno, looked at the grainy picture of the young man with full lips and round eyes and thought she recognized him.

At the next meeting of the community activist group, she passed around the photograph, mimeographed onto plain paper with no other information.

"Don't say anything to anyone else. Just look at this picture, and see if you recognize him," she told about 20 people.

They did. Their questions started: Had the sheriff's department assigned an anti-terrorism officer to Peace Fresno, a group dedicated to nonviolence? Or, as some members suggested, had the young man held a personal interest in the peace movement?

"The first question on everyone's mind was 'a dove in hawk's clothing, or a hawk in dove's clothing?' " said Peace Fresno member Nicholas DeGraff.

Kilner's mother, Debbie, whose maiden name is Stokes, said there was little chance that Kilner was attending Peace Fresno meetings out of personal interest. It wasn't so much his politics -- he had won awards from the Young Republicans while a student at Clovis High School -- it was his schedule.

Kilner was raising two daughters, Alyssa, 6 and Kayla, 5. He worked many hours of overtime at his job, and whatever free time he had he spent with the girls.

"He would go riding bicycles with them in Woodward Park when I knew he was working all night. He put sleep on the back burner."

Debbie Kilner never knew exactly what organizations her son observed as he couldn't talk about his cases, but she knew he must have been put in situations where he disagreed with the people he watched.

"We asked him, 'How do you do it when your views don't coincide?' And he said, 'The really great thing about this country is that people are allowed to express themselves.' He really strongly believed in that, but he was concerned about the line where opinions become actions."

Kilner was close to his 21-year old brother, Matt, who plans to go to the police academy in January. Matt Kilner said his brother was not attending Peace Fresno meetings on his own time.

"No way. He would have told me," he said. "His main goal was to protect. He was doing his job, going to different organizations. He wasn't out to get anyone. He was really open to people's beliefs, but he was making sure no one crossed over the boundary."

After members of Peace Fresno identified Kilner, they debated among themselves for a month about what to do. Finally they agreed they would have their attorney Campbell send a letter to Pierce asking whether they were being investigated and if so, what was reported.

Pierce's reply that they were not targets has not stopped some people's concerns.

"An undercover agent at the center for nonviolence, even if it's part of another investigation? Does that make me squirm? Yes. Is it illegal? Probably not," said Fresno attorney Patience Milrod.

In July, state attorney general Bill Lockyer told California law enforcement to not collect intelligence on religious or political groups without evidence of criminal activity. But under the federal Homeland Security Act of 2002, intelligence agents can look at acts of civil disobedience and minor law-breaking.

If, as many Peace Fresno members insist, Aaron Kilner was at their meetings, and if, as Pierce says, he was not investigating Peace Fresno, why was he there?

A sheriff's detective expressed frustration that because of the sensitive nature of Kilner's work, the department couldn't say what exactly was being investigated and end the controversy.

It's a secrecy that also frustrates Peace Fresno member DeGraff. "The issue calls to light people being investigated in complete dark and secrecy, and we're supposed to just trust what's going on?

"Academically, we always said this thing could go on. But suddenly it went from academic to a real hard sense that this could happen. This could happen here."

The reporter can be reached at dmarcum [at] fresnobee.com or 441-6375.
http://www.peacefresno.org/
by Fred
Sunday Oct 5th, 2003 11:53 AM
A lot of groups ask for money or dues from members, even the ISO at SFSU. People have to keep orgs going somehow, and having dues helps to keep a group stable.

Peace Fresno is not an imc. But even imcs ask for money. I have donated to imcs before because it's an important resource. If you aren't donating, or helping out, what are you doing? Think about it.

by Boris
(boris [at] yahoo.com) Sunday Oct 5th, 2003 5:13 PM
NIHIL FIDEI !!!!
by Mike Rhodes
Sunday Oct 5th, 2003 7:18 PM
peace_fresno_-_nick.jpg
To see the Peace Fresno PRESS STATEMENT about the infiltration go to:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/10/1650830.php

The photo here is of Nick DeGraff as he was being interviewed by a local TV station (ch 24) at the Press Conference.
October 5, 2003
by tim F.
Monday Oct 6th, 2003 12:35 AM
It has become a general, international trend to infiltrate and derange any movement that has a public, social, or environmental impact on the economic status quo. I'm absolutely certain that an organization like Greenpeace, for instance, is a main target. Many other transnational groups that promote social justice and cooperation are being sabotaged by these agents, who come from all countries, by the way.
This looks to be a global program by the Central Intelligence Agency - a mythical extreme right-wing monster agency that continuously prevents a multiracial, peaceful and sustainable way of life to develop.
by Daniel
Monday Oct 6th, 2003 1:58 PM
He lived a lie; now he lies in peace. Or does he?

The double life of Aaron Kilner, AKA Aaron Stokes, came to an end on August 30, 2003, when he died in a motorcycle accident, and it was shortly afterwards discovered that while presenting himself as a peace activist, he was working as an undercover agent for the Fresno Sheriff's Office. Lying was part of his job, but why did he accept such a job assignment? It may have been for career advancement, or maybe for the thrill of lying. It's also possible that he told himself that he was really doing no harm.

Nevertheless, whatever justification he may have given it, his job was to deceive and betray. He hurt people who trusted him. That's how Aaron Kilner made his living. There are, of course, people for whom such a lifestyle comes easy, who don't much care who they hurt, but there are also some who find it hard to live with. I'm reminded of the story of Judas, who ended himself after betraying a certain first century peace activist. Judas was an informer with a conscience.

What sort of person was Aaron Kilner? According to the Fresno Bee, he was the father of two young daughters, with whom he spent whatever free time he had. I find it hard to believe that a father who loves his children can be totally amoral.

He died in a motorcycle accident. Did some Freudian slip of the hand occur? There's probably no way to ever know for sure, but it's not impossible that his conscience caught up with him.

Be that as it may, Aaron Kilner left two small children who must some day come to terms with who their father was.
by WATCH YOUR BACK DAN
Monday Oct 6th, 2003 4:20 PM
I'm looking for you
by zon moy
(zonmoy [at] aol.com) Tuesday Oct 7th, 2003 2:28 PM
I have long suspected that the theocrats and corporate powers that pull the strings of both main parties were planning to make us into a fascist dictatorship.
by Steve Kisby
Tuesday Oct 7th, 2003 9:52 PM
I have a question...

Who wrote the obituary in The Fresno Bee that identified Aaron Kilner as a member of the Fresno County Sheriff’s department? How did that person come to know that Aaron was a member of the Sheriff’s department?
by Mike Rhodes
Tuesday Oct 7th, 2003 10:13 PM
QUESTION: "Who wrote the obituary in The Fresno Bee that identified Aaron Kilner as a member of the Fresno County Sheriff’s department? How did that person come to know that Aaron was a member of the Sheriff’s department? "

ANSWER: It is my understanding that his family wrote the obituary. I could scan it and post it as a .jpg or text if you would like to see what it said.




by IWatchedTheTowersFall
Tuesday Oct 7th, 2003 11:54 PM
Dead fucking narc. Only thing wrong with that is he didn't have another riding on the back.
by Mike Rhodes
Wednesday Oct 8th, 2003 7:13 PM
The six-month infiltration of Peace Fresno by an undercover Sheriff's Deputy who was only discovered because he was killed in a motorcycle accident will be discussed on Democracy Now! tomorrow morning Thursday, October 9 at 9 a.m. on KFCF 88.1 FM in Fresno or on KPFA in the Bay Area. Tune in. Turn others on.
by noel
(noel [at] treasoninc.com) Wednesday Oct 8th, 2003 8:44 PM
Look on the bright side; At least you there some right wingers listening...

I'll be in hell soon and deliver your messages to him as well as Nixon and the other "evil-doers" I had the misfortune to be involved with in my youth.

I'll be waiting for all of the bushes and arnie too...
by Mike Rhodes
Thursday Oct 9th, 2003 4:35 PM
To see the video of the Peace Fresno segment on Democracy Now go to:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/10/09/1556226
I heard this from a member of Peace Fresno early in the week in a personal email to all the activists he knew. I found myself more sad than surprised.

Anyone who knows about COINTELPRO, especially we who remember it, have always had this in the backs of our minds. The USPATRIOT Act makes it so easy to do this legally that it won't even warrant an investigation years from now as COINTELPRO was investigated and made public.

Brings the rhetorical question "who's next?" a lot closer to home,doesn't it. Regardless, we continue to wage peace!
I heard this from a member of Peace Fresno early in the week in a personal email to all the activists he knew. I found myself more sad than surprised.

Anyone who knows about COINTELPRO, especially we who remember it, have always had this in the backs of our minds. The USPATRIOT Act makes it so easy to do this legally that it won't even warrant an investigation years from now as COINTELPRO was investigated and made public.

Brings the rhetorical question "who's next?" a lot closer to home,doesn't it. Regardless, we continue to wage peace!
by Cynthia Morse
(cynthiawmorse [at] hotmail.com) Thursday Oct 9th, 2003 6:25 PM
Can you resurrect the comment I made using "Mike Rhoades" in the AUTHOR line? I THOUGHT (albeit not very well!) it was asking for the author of the article upon which I was commenting. Obviously up with which you will not put.

Cynthia Morse
by Aurelio De Los Santos
Thursday Oct 9th, 2003 8:27 PM
It appears that all of may waking life, I have been followed by infiltrations and the consequences therein.

Since the late 60's, when the Brown Beret/Chicano Movement was going strong, it was oblirated by law enforcement infiltration, Ruben Salazar, a newspaper coumnist in Los Angeles, was brutally killed by law enforcemnt at the East L.A. Riots.

Then in in the the late 1970's I belonged to a Union that catered to Undocumented Workers (international
Brotherhood of General Workers, IBGW) which was constantly "watched" by FBI agents.

In the 1980's I was attending People's College, in Los Angeles, and there we were saturated with infiltrators, which a culminated in a successful law suit against the LAPD.

I came back to Fresno, hoping I would lead a peaceful middle-age life, and now we have this spying case on the our own back yard, The Peace Group in Fresno, of which I am proud to consider myself part of.

Are we ever (those of us who consider themselves progressives, liberals or leftists) going to be allowed to excersise our First Amendment Rights.

by random
Friday Oct 10th, 2003 12:10 PM
If you're not doing anything illegal, what do you have to fear from someone in your group being from the Sheriff's department?

by Mike Rhodes
Friday Oct 10th, 2003 2:26 PM
The comment above from “random” (who chooses to remain anonymous, which in this case I find to be very ironic) says that “if you're not doing anything illegal, what do you have to fear from someone in your group being from the Sheriff's department?”

“Random” is referring, of course, to the recent infiltration of Peace Fresno by an undercover agent working for the Fresno Sheriff’s Department.

I am concerned that this logic will lead us to a police state. Does “random” really want law enforcement monitoring everything she/he does? If you are doing nothing wrong, would it bother you to know that the police were monitoring your actions at work or at church? How about if law enforcement followed you into the bedroom?

A line has been drawn that limits how intrusive law enforcement can be in our personal lives. Right now, they must have probable cause or a reasonable suspicion of criminal activity before they can investigate and monitor what you are doing. Does the Patriot Act change that? Those of us fighting for Civil Liberties don’t think so. We believe that the California Constitution, which is more protective of Civil Liberties than the Patriot Act, is the law of the land.

I encourage Peace Fresno to stand up for their rights under the California Constitution and challenge this violation of their Civil Liberties. If they win, we can all breath a little easier. If they loose, we are on a slippery slope to a police state.
by it's too late
Friday Oct 10th, 2003 2:51 PM
This is already a police state.
by Random
Friday Oct 10th, 2003 3:12 PM
You have misinterpreted my point.

My question was made in the hopes of generating one single thought:

Under the reams and reams of paper that the police write up, especially special units and joint task forces, there HAS to be a entry somewhere that justifies the Sheriff's Dept. placing a "Watcher" in the group.

The thought I was hoping to generate was, before freaking out, screaming about police states, loss of civil liberties, etc, etc, etc,....ACTUALLY do some research, find out what (most likely lame) reason the guy was there in the first place.

If....<Insert deity here> forbid!!....that someone within the group ACTUALLY needed to be watched, then is that an invasion of Civil Liberties?

The point is, until all the facts are in, the knee-jerk reactionism of screaming the same tired and worn out slogans that have been around for three decades is not going to create public outcry outside of a tiny sphere of influence.

Get the facts....prove what you can....THEN start screaming about Police States, Civil Liberties, etc.

Without solid....and by solid, I mean even pudding consistancy will do....but without solid evidence that he wasn't there of his own accord, that the Sheriff's placed him there, and their reasons for doing so, all you do is shoot yourself in the foot.

Do I think it was all benign? Based of the evidence, no, but it's not conclusive.

Do I think it is possible that....just as the sheriff's placed an agent...someone else could have placed an agent who has objectives counter to the continued lives of countless americans? Yes. It is possible.

Do the research, get the facts, THEN make the acusations.

Otherwise, you simply look like you're throwing a tantrum.

---Random

P.S. For the record, we don't live in the police state. If we did, we wouldn't be talking on this site in the first place.
by Daniel
Saturday Oct 11th, 2003 12:55 AM
A death threat must be the highest form of praise, and I never expected to receive one. But on October 6th I did. It happened shortly after I wrote "Epitaph for a Deceiver," a commentary on the Fresno undercover agent who died in a motorcycle accident. I posted it on Indy Media, and the next time I visited the website, there was a message for me which read: "It'll be your turn soon / by WATCH YOUR BACK DAN / I'm looking for you".

Wow! That sent a chill through me, and I was frightened, flattered and amused-all at the same time. To think that my words had inspired such passion! For a moment I felt as though I were up there with Salman Rushdie; the fact is that death threats can cause acute attacks of megalomania.

Of course I've heard that that 99 % of such threats are not carried out. Nevertheless, real or not, a threat is a threat. I believe it would be fair to call it a subtle form of "terrorism." It's certainly intimidation, aimed at deterring us from exercising our First Amendment right of free speech.

Intimidation has become part of life under the Bush regime, and it comes in many forms, usually something less dramatic but far more real than a death threat. Most commonly it's the threat of losing jobs or career opportunities. But it's always for the same purpose-to rob us of our First Amendment rights. And it nearly always comes from the very ones who falsely claim to be the defenders of our democracy.
by that's simply untrue
Saturday Oct 11th, 2003 1:17 AM
The police use this site as a source of information. If it wasn't for us and their Carnivore, or whatever they're calling it these days, they'd actually have to work for their paychecks.

See:

http://www.sfbg.com/nessie/24.html
by it only takes once
Saturday Oct 11th, 2003 1:25 AM
Be prepared at all times to defend your life and the lives of your loved ones, because, yeah, these guys really do kill people sometimes. If it's you, it's 100% of you.

And dont rely on the police to protect you. It's a bad bet. There's a name for people who rely on the police to protect them. They're called victims.
by Anarchist
Saturday Oct 11th, 2003 1:34 AM
we don't live in the police state. If we did, we wouldn't be talking on this site in the first place.


or is that what "they want us to think?
by shadow government
Saturday Oct 11th, 2003 1:44 AM
If...random is doing nothing wrong [and I suspect that his/her activities here are inethical and illegal], would it bother random to know that the police were monitoring his/her actions at work, at church, or in the toilet?


Will random answer the question?
by it's not working so well anymore
Saturday Oct 11th, 2003 2:01 AM
They want us to accept being thought for.
by fresh Oil
Saturday Oct 11th, 2003 2:30 PM
"Intimidation has become part of life under the Bush regime"

Quit whining and snivelling and being so ridiculously melodramatic.

You're all a bunch of scared paranoid mice.

by The Fresno Bee
Saturday Oct 11th, 2003 3:24 PM
Troubling disclosure
Sheriff has no business spying on people, activities without evidence.

(Published Saturday, October 11, 2003, 5:55 AM)



Look carefully at that woman in the back at your religious studies meeting this week. Peek at the notes being taken by the quiet guy who's on the committee planning the demonstration at Blackstone and Shaw avenues. Isn't there something odd about that new person in your veterans group who gave you a blank stare when you vented about the latest U.S. body count in Iraq?
The nation's concern about personal liberties vs. national security has become exceedingly personal recently, as members of Peace Fresno found when they realized that an undercover sheriff's detective had been attending their meetings. We share their concerns.

The group members discovered this quite suddenly when they saw a photograph of an officer killed in an off-duty motorcycle accident Aug. 30. The deputy had been, group members are sure, attending their meetings for about two months. He called himself Aaron Stokes, and when people inquired about his profession, he said he was independently wealthy.

After his death, red flags of suspicion about the undercover detective -- actually, Aaron Kilner -- began to fly all over the group. The members were not sure at first what to do. So they asked their attorney, Catherine Campbell, to send a letter to Fresno County Sheriff Richard Pierce asking whether they were being investigated and, if so, what was reported.

That was a fair question. And even though the sheriff replied that they were not targets, it is understandable that they are concerned.

The officer used a false name while attending the meetings and those closest to the man say he had no time and no personal interest in participating in an organization like Peace Fresno.

At a time when the sheriff is saying he needs more money for officers to fight methamphetamine trafficking and other serious threats to public safety, we question using detectives' time to monitor a political group like Peace Fresno with apparently no evidence of criminal activity. This certainly raises questions about the sheriff's priorities.

In July, California law enforcement agencies were told by state Attorney General Bill Lockyer not to collect intelligence on religious or political groups without evidence of criminal activity. However, the federal Homeland Security Act of 2002 says that intelligence agents can look at acts of civil disobedience and minor lawbreaking.

For groups with violent histories or other reasons to be suspicious, that may be called for. But Fresno's Center for Nonviolence is not one of them.

If Peace Fresno is right, Sheriff Pierce needs to find better uses for his manpower.

by Tom McKay
(belovedtom [at] yahoo.com) Saturday Oct 11th, 2003 5:32 PM
Yes, we are already living in a Police State.

It is very easy to turn a law-and-order democracy into a Police State. All you need to do is gradually hire more police, make more secret police, pass more laws, build more prisons, and incrementally ignore the constitutional rights of the slaves.

Every 4 years we elect a new master from the Elite, but the fundamental oppression of the authoritarian government gradually increases. By the time people wake up, the power of the Elite is so great that no revolution is possible.

The Global Elite are the root cause of the problem which manifests itself on a local level as police infiltration of our political action groups. In fact, the Elite have probably infiltrated every group and covertly control many of them.

The goal of the Global Elite is to create a Nazi-style totalitarian dictatorship to control every government and every person in the world. The power of computers, other advanced technologies, secret weapons, and brainwashing make it easy for them to eventually achieve their goal. They call it the New World Order.

The Global Elite control the world with the power and organization of their secret societies. Many of them are modeled after the 13th century Persian secret society, the Assassins. They capture control by assassinating all of their opponents and those who disobey their orders.

President George Walker Bush is a member of the Order of Skull and Bones. When he was initiated he probably swore an oath of obedience to the leadership of Skull and Bones "on pain of death." If he disobeys their orders, he would be assassinated. This is a mafia style enforcement. This is why President Bush could never participate in a democratic system. He is not free to respect the will of the Congress or the people. He is a slave to his Secret Society.

Here is more information about the Secret Society Network that controls the world:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/2101/skull.html

The most powerful weapon of the Global Elite is brainwashing and mind control. Most Americans don't realize how brainwashed they are. By the time we graduate from school we have been thoroughly trained to believe what we are told to believe. We are never allowed to disagree with a person in authority. We are trained not to think independently or do independent research. We are punished for any dissent or opposition to the decisions of our leaders. Religions and the media are also participating in the brainwashing system. Executive Order 12333 classifies dissidents and independent thinkers as "subversives" and links them with "terrorists." They are then subject to surveillance, harassment, abuse, or arrest.

The leaders of the Global Elite are so secretive that we don't even know who they are. We can probably guess a few, but there may be many others in the highest levels of authority that we would not know about. Svali might know a few. Illuminati mind control defector Svali exposes the Illuminati Supreme World Council:

http://www.savethemales.ca/141002.html

Wake Up America.
by CHRIST YOU PEOPLE ARE WHINING IDIOTS
Saturday Oct 11th, 2003 5:43 PM
The whole lot of you are simply incredibly paranoid, delusional, hysterical and outright stupid. I suspect I speak for the VASY VAST majority of the human race when I say that your deaths would only lead to a mighty sigh.
by michael
Saturday Oct 11th, 2003 6:19 PM
its a shame that this stuff happens consistantly and is nothing new with the passing of the patriot act. activists experience this everyday, regardless of if the law precieves out actions as potentially illegal or not. this person with the profane post about paranoia is probably the same person that would tell you with a straight face that america is the greatest and most free place in the world, a place where you can have your own political and otherwise opinions without persecution. and then (s)he posts and hysterical version of his/her persecution. it is clear, that since activists are all too aware of law inforcement's infitration and survailence on a regular basis, that this person is not an activist. and clearly beleives that we are not intitled to dissenting or unpopular opinions in america, land of the free. the fact that infiltration happend once in america is a contestment to the idea of political freedom in america. and posts like these are entirely unproductive. the solution? a new definition of political freedom must be achieved. the political climate is becoming more drastic everyday, and since public opinion is now subject to the production whims of the corperate media, i feel that a new concensus on political freedom must be reached. it should not be tied to ideas of individuality, because the concepts provided to us of acceptable personal identity are certainly not individual and this is aparent in the constant persecution of fringe individuals throughout our society. i do not know what our new concept of personal freedom should entail, but what i do know is that freedom does not exsist as long as we rely on, or await society's acceptance of radicalism as legitimate. posts like the above mentioned are testament to how fringe social change and progressivity are in capitalism, and any diversion from the identity provided to us by capitalism will be marginalized until we learn that life outside the system is attainable, and life inside is unacceptable.
by VICTIMIZATION IS A HOBBY FOR THIS LOT
Saturday Oct 11th, 2003 6:31 PM
"that america is the greatest and most free place in the world, a place where you can have your own political and otherwise opinions without persecution."

Of course it is. Where might you find a more free country. And what is this "persecution" you speak of? You fools are continually free to protest, march say what ever you want wherever you want. That this site even exists is absolute refutation of your self agrandizing persecution complex.

It's fascinating watching you all cringe and rage against a world which simply doesn't exist.
by ?
Saturday Oct 11th, 2003 6:42 PM
Arent right wingers supposed to be against Big Government? How does opposition to big government fit with this almost joyfull response to the news that local police sat in on a peaceful political groups meetings? If a democratic governor used the state police to put bugs into right wing groups offices would you have an issue with that? On strictly ideological grounds one would expect libertarian Republicans to be MORE rather than LESS horrified by this spying case.
by THE PROBLEM IS WITH YOU NOT &quot;BIG BROTHER
Saturday Oct 11th, 2003 7:30 PM
All of the fools whining about this undercover cop are cut from the same pathetic piece of cloth.

No matter what country, what culture or what period of history you all lived in, you'd all be crying the same pathetic tears because none of your fear and rage has ANYTHING to do with the world around you.

It's you who are fucked up. I'm sitting here laughing out loud at how you've turned being "repressed" into some sort of hobby.

Christ. you'd all feel oppressed alone on an island.

The world goes on just fine and you all roll around pathetically whining about Big Brother.

Just the dumbest bunch.
by michael
Saturday Oct 11th, 2003 8:06 PM
fascinating still is the response to my previous article. amazed i was at the huge "shut the fuck up" we all recieved after typing our minds on, yes, a free form of media.
america is a place where we can hold political opinions and not be persecuted? the writers of the two previous posts that i have referred to would answer yes. only after reading a news story of "dissenants" being secretly watched and documented simply because of their political affiliation? do these responces come before or after reading the story, or do we ignore it all together? the oringinal story states how this isnt the first case of this happening, and we activists arent suprised? does anyone remember the WTO protests? how about the oakland longshore dock's protest. free assembly? free to protest? yes, and to get shot at with rubber and wooden bullets, and tear gassed. to be labeled a terrorist, and harrassed. after the march demonstrations kids on bikes were being arrested and ticketed for being on a bike because of the effectiveness of a bike-bound direct action group. free to assemble huh? freedom of association? are you missing this? these protesters, these demonstraters, these activists' experiences were everything but free. for this we all pay a price (literally and figuratively). so if you choose to define government sanctioned, encouraged, even mandated harassment, infiltration, and sabatoge as an aspect of political freedom that is your problem. false consciousness is a political freedom too i suppose.
by Baba
Sunday Oct 12th, 2003 10:50 AM
Yes, it can be foolish and even dangerous to be "paranoid", about Big Brother, moles, losing our rights, etc. But it is also foolish and irresponsible to shine it all on as a bunch if hysterical nonsense. Because you know what? It happened in Germany, didn't it? And if it happened there, it can also happen here. How are we any different? Do you think for one minute that the German people would have ever thought that someone like Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party would rise to power and do the horrendous things they did? I know that a lot of Americans seem to have a "Chosen People" kind of attitude about themselves - the notion that America can do no wrong and is somehow above reproach - that nothing evil could ever happen here from within. Aaaaah, the perefect setup for something TO happen! I'm watching things very closely. I think a lot of us are. Paranoid? Call us what you must. Let's just hope and pray that someday you're not thanking us.

by too late
Sunday Oct 12th, 2003 12:10 PM
It already has happened here.
by Rich in Reno
(jpom222 [at] yahoo.com) Sunday Oct 12th, 2003 2:18 PM
i applaud every and all the people here for expressing their opinions. this is what america used to be about, but now, only in the mostly-anonymous coolness of cyberspace do we feel the freedom we felt before-- before the mccarthy hearings, before Kent State, before the Florida recount was halted by thugs sent from the White House.

here's a copy excerpted from what i posted to another -group:

got a real neat expression for ya-- "what doesnt kill us only makes us stronger"

i really dont know what anyone else has been experiencing in the police state that has grown up around us, in full view of everyone, but i will tell you what i've been feeling (not that some of you give a flying fuck in hell).

after WWII, after the sickness of soul that infected Jews worldwide had subsided, after Israel was born in the blood of 5 Arab states that immediately attacked it, after the mccarthy hearings that degraded and insulted some of our brightest lights in hollywood, we came up with a simple 2 word statement that said it all: NEVER AGAIN

i went through the nixon paranoia years, the riots in berkeley that set the fires of free speech in college campuses all over the world, saw the kennedy assassinations, fought in LBJ's war on poverty, against the same man's refusal to end the war in viet nam...

did all this right alongside people who werent ashamed to be liberals, and werent afraid of any dirty tricks the establishment used to silence us, and man, they tried: put us on lists, tapped our phones, infiltrated our meetings, spread disinformation, and in the end,
THEY DIDNT AMOUNT TO A ROW OF BEANS.

we went on speaking out against the injustice of govt bureaucrats, we got jobs, without being grilled about a petition we signed in the sixties, we went on with our lives-- and we were vindicated in most of our causes-- some of which we still fight: civil rights for women, minorities, sexual preference--- and the most important fight, the one that is easiest to do battle in, once you conquer your fear-- because all it involves is opening your mouth, anywhere, any time you sense injustice-- the fight for free speech.

you guys have watched me go through some shit here, times i was a maniac, times i wasnt. but see, what y'all think of me is none of my business my business is to be free. think it's yours too? then dont fear anything. there's an e-group that posts this little piece of crap after every entry: remember, your govt monitors everything you say here.

my reply to that? SO FREAKIN WHAT, muthafukkaz?!! bring it on, feds. come get me for saying georgie boy should be dragged out of the white house, kicking and screaming like the little coward he's been all his sorry ass life, and pilloried on the great lawn, for all to walk by and spit on him.

now if you're afraid of me writing statements like that, if you think i owe it to this group to muzzle my thoughts and statements, let me tell you what I THINK my obligations to this group are-- to be free. simply to be free. i will not be silenced by fear and doubt, not by you, not by the patriot act, not by anyone, as long as my lungs and heart still function.

we got an expression in brooklyn: put yer money where your mouth is. i'm betting this group will not be silenced either, same way those freedom fighters in fresno will not be. either fight me or fight with me. your choice.

i love you all, but please dont try to explain group dynamics or social conscience to me. freedom is never free- it entails obligations. if you dont respect my freedom, you dont respect your own.
by Baba
Sunday Oct 12th, 2003 3:50 PM
Well said, Rich in Reno. Change never happens by keeping your thoughts in your head. It always BEGINS with a thought, but unless it is followed by A VOICE and ultimately AN ACTION, it will remain what it is - a thought. And what good is a thought alone? Might as well not think. Which is, I'm afraid, what most Americans do - we don't think. We've allowed ourselves to be dumbed-down, lazy, and apathetic. And sadly, I don't know what the solution to that is. But one thing for sure is - we must unite! And who is "we"? "We" are Working Class Americans - WCA's. And we must start referring to ourselves as WCA's - not African Americans, not Native Americans, not White Americans, not gay and lesbian Americans, not liberals, not conservatives - just Working Class Americans. Because THAT is what we are! It is our common thread - the experience that we all share. Those other labels only serve to keep us divided into special interest groups - to keep us marginalized. And when we use them, we engage in self-marginalization - which is exactly what the power elite wants. We play right into their hands. Working Class Americans are fragmented, marginalized, and powerless, and largely because we allow it, and even take part in it. It is time for this to end, and NOW. We must get it through our heads, the power elite does not care about Working Class Americans! They never have, and they never will. If they did, how in God's name could the richest most powerful nation to ever exist have 44 million citizens without medical insurance? And why, in the richest most powerful nation to ever exist, are increasing numbers of its citizens becoming jobless, falling below the poverty level, and becoming homeless? And why does a president who was supposedly elected by the people continue to give tax breaks to the rich at the expense of us WCA's? And why does an "elected" president send our young people overseas to die for corporate interests(i.e. oil)? Because they care about us? Get real - they don't give a rat's ass about us. We're just pauns to them. And we must not allow it any longer...

Power to Working Class Americans! Let us be ONE!
by Michael Savage
Monday Oct 13th, 2003 12:34 AM
this shows just how screwed up the lefties really are!
you live in a dream land of your own making
by Mike Rhodes
Monday Oct 13th, 2003 8:23 AM
One of the people trying to disrupt Indymedia wrote:

******************************
god I love this thread!
by Michael Savage Monday October 13, 2003 at 12:33 AM
this shows just how screwed up the lefties really are!
you live in a dream land of your own making
******************************
I find it interesting how much time someone (or group - who are these people really?) is spending to disrupt not only the discussion on this thread, but on all of Indymedia. I see their efforts as a validation that we (the left) are being successful. If they (Free Republic, law enforcement, right wing nuts - whoever they are) are going to put their resources into disrupting this site, infiltrating our groups, etc - then that is a good indication that we are being effective.

Keep up the good work as we build a better world built on peace, social/economic justice and environmental sustainability. We will NOT be intimidated by these right wing goons who are the “shock troops” of American fascism.
I see that "Random" remains anonymous. Random, what are YOU afraid of? I think were you to educate yourself on the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and U.S. history, you would be able to see your argument for what it is--specious.

Infiltration and spying is not investigation. Investigation by law enforcement involves the judiciary, which weighs the information/ evidence of POSSIBLE wrongdoing and decides whether or not to approve a search warrant, questioning, etc. The veracity of the information/evidence that led to the search warrant can be challenged in court if and when the investigation leads to an indictment. This is the 4th Amendment of the Constitution--protection against unreasonable search and seizure.

Peace Fresno is a group that doesn't like what the U.S. government is doing to civil rights, the poor and disenfranchised, and targeted populations. I know this because I know members of Peace Fresno and because I belong to more than one group in the East Bay that is working to right the same wrongs.

THIS is what law enforcement objects to--if they had a reasonable suspicion that the group or an individual in the group were connected with "terrorism" (the quotes indicate that the USAPATRIOT Act definition of "terrorism" is seriously debatable), there would be a real investigation. There would be information pointing to an infraction, a judge issuing a search warrant, and time-tested law enforcement methods employed to find evidence.
Instead, there is a fishing trip--infiltration and spying.

The connection with CATIC should alert us to the thinking that leads to this unlawful law enforcement method. After the Oakland incident, a CATIC official made this statement (paraphrased because I don't have the exact words in front of me, but will NEVER forget the twisted thinking behind it): "If a war is being fought against terrorism, and individuals protest against it, the case can be made that the action of those individuals is therefore in support of terrorism and they can then be considered terrorists." Every assumption used is untrue, and the conclusion is indefensible.

So, Random, the question occurs to me--are you involved in infiltration and spying yourself? Whether you are or not, it's time to help our Founding Fathers to stop spinning in their graves and rethink YOUR assumptions.
by cynthia morse
(cynthiawmorse [at] hotmail.com) Monday Oct 13th, 2003 9:53 AM
The trouble with reading Michael Savage's comments is that 1) he says the same garbage on his show, and 2) I hear his nasty spittle-laced voice when I read it.

Otherwise--so what? Michael, I refer you to my comment above.

The "dreamland" is what this country was meant to be. I know plenty of "righties" that believe in the Constitution (including the Bill of Rights). A fact: 60% of the huge increase in ACLU membership since 9/11 is due to enrollment of self-described right-wing, conservative organizations. Maybe they understand something that you don't.
by Baba
Monday Oct 13th, 2003 11:13 AM
Have you ever noticed that the Michael Savages of these threads never have anything concrete, factual and specific to say? They never take on a posting point-by-point and argue with supporting facts. It's always, "You're all so deluded!" - things like that - authoritarian, yet juvenile - and not at all intellectual. They wouldn't survive a real debate.
by question
Monday Oct 13th, 2003 5:12 PM
Perhaps someone just needs to turn the tables and infiltrate them.
by pasionaria - ireland
Monday Oct 13th, 2003 5:35 PM
i agree baba, real power can exist when working class people unite all over the world
by people search
Monday Oct 13th, 2003 5:38 PM
The Sherrif's dept sent a spy to peace fresno?
by Mike Rhodes
Monday Oct 13th, 2003 6:27 PM
Like I said earlier, if we (the left) were not being effective, these right wing yahoo’s would not care. But, they are posting their hatred on this site constantly, they threaten us (see the post above which attempts to intimidate me), and infiltrate our organizations with the hope disrupting our work. These cowards, who are afraid to identify themselves, are the shock troops of fascism.

While their threats and intimidation, both online and in the streets, are problematic they will not stop working and poor people from uniting in the struggle for peace, social & economic justice. In Fresno, we will defend our right to meet without law enforcement agents watching our every move. We will be on the Streets of Fresno on Wednesday, October 15 when pResident George Bush is in town. While he (Bush) is inside the convention center celebrating with the ruling class we will be outside feeding the poor and demonstrating against the occupation in Iraq, war, and empire. There will be a huge march in Fresno on Friday to support a living wage for home care workers. We have the San Francisco Mime Troupe in town in a week or so and we are working on building a Central Valley Indymedia center. The progressive movement in Fresno is strong and getting stronger.

The cowards that post hate on this site and infiltrate our meetings are spiting in the wind. Their efforts are just making us stronger.
by McVeigh supporter
Monday Oct 13th, 2003 9:07 PM
Some guy came to a indigenous peoples movie called "American Holocaust" and immediately after the movie was finished he yells out,

"Do you consider Osama Bin Laden and Timothy McVeigh heroes in the spirit of crazy horse?"

This sets a tone of violence for people who are trying to be peaceful. It took me too long to figure out, i am too niave and nice, trusting too much..

He looks like the picture of the person in Fresno, though i did not think they were the same??

did he really die in an accident?

He is either FBI or right wing militia..

stupid me for not noticing..

by Mike Rhodes
Monday Oct 13th, 2003 9:46 PM
I think it is safe to assume that the informant, Aaron Kilner, is quite DEAD. Reports say that he was riding his motorcycle at over 100 mph when he was killed. He was decapitated. His children were in a car that was following him and it was a horrific scene.

While it is unlikely that it was Kilner that the above poster saw in Arcata, there are many people like Kilner out there. The only thing that will stop these agents is public exposure, political pressure, and a good legal team that is willing to go on the offensive. That is what we have in Fresno, and it will make them back off for a while.

We have the sheriff on the defensive, the local newspaper is attacking law enforcement’s stupidity, and Peace Fresno is stronger than ever.
by Vincent Lavery
Tuesday Oct 14th, 2003 12:22 AM
Ye ole lads need to have a drink fore I give you a rap on the nogins with me shillelagh. I return to find me lads playing with a flippin hornets nest. aye me heads a spinnin. and Nicholas me boy, I told you to eat yur meat and potatos...yer a wastin away, it looks as though you caught a wee bit o the aids. aye it's good to be back in fresno lads.
by Angie
Tuesday Oct 14th, 2003 2:03 AM
Wondered where you'd gone! Back from the ole sod, eh? Good!
by history buff
Tuesday Oct 14th, 2003 9:32 AM
Maybe he's both. The FBI and the right wing militias overlap in a number of places, both in terms of ideology and in terms of personel.
by Sara
Wednesday Oct 15th, 2003 1:21 PM
This story shows just how far the Patriot Act could go. It is scary, but a reality in the world we live in. I will continue to fight to try to see that things like this do not happen again.
by adili
Thursday Oct 16th, 2003 11:37 AM
Anyone see a pattern here?

http://dc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/82921/index.php
by anti-fascist
Sunday Nov 9th, 2003 10:45 AM
Gotcha in the crosshair, tool.
by super dave
Saturday Nov 15th, 2003 12:09 PM
hey doughcart , reality check , the guy died in a motorcycle mishap you paraniod shmuck. your rhetoric smacks of delusion,Islamic centers are places where women and children go to worship God.Do you have any EVIDENCE that A.N.S.W.E.R. is terrorist besides your hallucinations?
by super dave
Saturday Nov 15th, 2003 12:53 PM
BUT The sherrif himself came out and said that there is no knowledge of anything criminal going on in the peace group WHICH IS OBVIOUS, IT'S ALSO OBVIOUS HE WAS NOT THERE TO SPY ON ANY ONE PERSON, generaly law enforcement agents do not go off and investigate without the sanction of said agent's superior, and if there is something actually criminal ,WHY ALL THE SECRECY? In the past there have been trials where the government claimed national security issues , but these were worked out without completely destroying a defendant's right to :privacy, facing his accuser,a fair trial. Agents testifying in sillhouete, etc. While I personally would like to see it even more open than that , but I digress. When the bill of rights was written , the reason people wanted to have these protections was to protect against authorities not having any real case and holding someone indefinitely, spying on them for no reason etc. There are no written down documents thjat the people can get a hold of BECAUSE IT'S ALL SECRET!!!! Which makes a conveniance for your argument.!!! Instead of the argument being , if you have nothing to hide , why fear the government spying on you, the argument should be , if we have nothing to hide , why does the government fear US enough to spy , US the innocent civilians
by super dave
Saturday Nov 15th, 2003 12:59 PM
Nazi germany did not start out all at once, first they came for one group, then they took away one civil liberty then another group then another civil liberty,if these sites are monitored by homeland security it can be tantamount to intimidating people not to write, LEARN YOUR HISTORY "FACT" BOY!!!!
You cannot export a revolution!!! They never proved that russian agents started the nuclear freeze movement did they?
Here is a story from the Fresno Bee about local law enforcement getting more money to violate our civil liberties. Oy Vey!
***************************************

Fresno gets $7 million grant for fight against terrorism

Bee Washington Bureau
(Published Friday, November 14, 2003, 9:55 AM)



WASHINGTON -- The Department of Homeland Security announced Thursday it is providing $7 million to help Fresno establish an Urban Area Homeland Security Strategy. The grant, announced by Fresno's congressional delegation, is supposed to help local officials assess potential terrorist threats and prepare strategies to deal with them.
"Protecting the Central Valley from terrorism requires a collaborative effort by our local, state and federal law-enforcement officials," said Rep. Cal Dooley, D-Fresno.

The grant to Fresno is part of $125 million in overall Homeland Security funds provided to California, as part of what's called the Urban Area Security Initiative. The funds are supposed to help urban areas in particular and were distributed based on a formula that counts factors including critical infrastructure, population density and credible-threat intelligence.

"Fresno needs every resource to keep its people and infrastructure safe and secure," said Rep. George Radanovich, R-Mariposa.

Rep. Devin Nunes, R-Visalia, said, "These funds are vital to enhancing efforts to prevent and respond to potential terrorist threats in our own back yard."

The same program is providing Sacramento with an $8 million grant and San Francisco with $26 million.

by DirtyPawz
Sunday Jan 11th, 2004 11:17 AM
Here's some statements that while written long ago, should provoke question that we need answers to....
Overgrown military establishments are under any form of government inauspicious to liberty, and are to be regarded as particularly hostile to liberty. - George Washington

I believe that there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. - James Madison

There is no subjugation so perfect as that which keeps the appearance of freedom, for in that way one captures volition itself.-Jean-Jacques Rosseau
A society in which people are already isolated and atomized, divided by suspicious and destructive rivalry, would support a system of terror better than a society without much chronic antagonism.- Eugene. V. Walker

referring to Adolf Hitler; Let none of us exult too soon, The womb is fruitful from which this one crawled....- Bertolt Brecht
We have transformed information into a form of garbage. - Neil Postman

Advertising separates our era from all earlier ones as little else does. - Wilhelm Ropke

So if you read and study history, or what's left of it, we can clearly see that these battles for minerals and class status and attendant social and political power are not new. It is up to us to continue to use this internet resource, that we may share with each other the information neccessary to survive this current onslaught against free though and actions, In spite of the routine unconstitutional, invasive violations of our rights to privacy that use of this format subjects us to. Hopefully we may all act in synchronicity when the time comes to stand up and be counted.

There are far more of us free-thinkers than there are fascists, but they are far better funded and organized, with all the power of governments, corporations and the media at their disposal. It's not impossible, but these days the tasks required from us to work for freedom can be consuming.

http://www.bushin30seconds.org, http://www.from the wilderness.com, and http://www.guerrillanews.com are all good sources of information! Cheers!
Listen now:
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Nicholas DeGraff of Peace Fresno and I spoke on the evening of April 16, 2004. He was in Santa Cruz for the Northern California Peace Centers Conference, and was a presenter at the conference.

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