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Alan Dershowitz, Plagiarist..
Alan Dershowitz's $10,000 challenge -- to defy his lies as lies..
Democracy Now! chaired a lively debate between author/professor Norman Finkelstein (both parents Polish Holocaust survivors) and Harvard Law professor Alan Dershowitz (AIPAC Zionist) on Wednesday 9/24. On Scarborough Country, MSNBC's tragic excuse for a news reel, in early September Dershowitz stated "I will give $10,000 to the PLO, if you can find a historical fact in my book that you can prove to be false." The offer was not limited to his opponent but open to all, whomever felt they could take up such a frivolous yet pertinent challenge.
Well Finkelstein confronted him with a multitude of erroneous "facts" and also opened up the debate for the book's entire authenticity as nothing more than a hoax "plagiarized from another fraud" (the other fraud a Joan Peters book that Finkelstein himself had exposed in 1984). Dershowitz also challenged Edward Said and/or Noam Chomsky to prove his book a lie during the debate, "Tell you what I will give $10,000 to the P.L.O. in your name if you can find a historical fact in my book that you can prove to be false. I issue that challenge, I issue it to you, I issue it to the Palestinian Authority, I issue it to Noam Chomsky to Edward Said, every word in my book is accurate and you can't just simply say it's false without documenting it."
Each and every abstract pondering, incidental reflections, even middling thoughts in passing -- ardent compositions of a literate brilliance penned by the late great Edward Said on the question of Palestine has defied time and time again this naive challenge by an author who's truths are at the very best libelous to begin with.
An animated & disruptive debate. To see it in all it's glory (hmm) go to:
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/09/24/1730205..
And now Counterpunch have set him within the vigilant grip of their vice. Hey now!! -pk
"Will Lawrence Summers Take Action? Alan Dershowitz, Plagiarist"
By ALEXANDER COCKBURN, September 26, 2003
Let's start with a passage from Alan Dershowitz's latest book, The Case for Israel, now slithering into the upper tier of Amazon's sales charts. On page 213 we meet Dershowitz, occupant of the Felix Frankfurter chair at Harvard Law School, happily walloping a French prof called Faurisson, charged by the FF prof from Harvard U as being a fraud and a holocaust denier: "There was no extensive historical research. Instead there was the fraudulent manufacturing of false antihistory. It was the kind of deception for which professors are rightly fired--not because their views are controversial, but because they are violating the most basic canons of historical scholarship.."
You want an example of Dershowitz's canons of scholarship, base rather than basic?
On pages 233-4, he writes, "In September 1970, King Hussein of Jordan killed and injured more Palestinians in one month than Israel has during three years of responding to the suicide bombing intifada." The corresponding endnote reads: "Estimates vary as to the number of Palestinians killed during "Black September," with some estimates as high as 4,000." His two cited sources for this claim? a Sony movie, One Day in September, and a chronology for a high school course outline on the Middle East conflict.
If Justice Frankfurter had fuelled decisions with this kind of scholarship he'd have been citing Marvel Comics as useful repositories of case law and precedent. If, in writings off the bench, he'd used the sort of research procedures displayed elsewhere in Dershowitz's Case for Israel he'd probably have been forced off the Supreme Court for ethical considerations of a sort that I imagine Harvard's president, Lawrence Summers, will soon be pondering in the case of Prof. Dershowitz.
Let me now usher into the narrative an important member of our cast in this drama: "From Time Immemorial: The Origins of the ArabJewish Conflict Over Palestine", a 60l- page book by Joan Peters, published in l984. Peter's polemical work strove to buttress the old Zionist thesis that the land of Israel had been "a land without people, awaiting a people without land". There was no substantial Palestinian presence, Peters claimed, before the Jewish return. Initially given an ecstatic reception by publications such the New York Times the book was soon discredited as a charnel house of disingenuous polemic. The coup de grace was administered by Professor Yehoshua Porath in the New York Review of Books for January 16 and March 27, 1986.
Though neither Peter's nor her book appear in the index to The Case for Israel, they do get a mention in note 3l of chapter 2, where Dershowitz cites the work of a 19th century French geographer called Cuinct, and adds, "See Joan Peters, From Time Immemorial (Chicago, JKAP Publications, 1984). Peters's conclusions and data have been challenged. See Said and Hitchens, p. 33. I do not in any way rely on them in this book. "Them" clearly refers to Peters' conclusions and data.
This brazen declaration is preceded in chapters one and two by wholesale, unacknowledged looting of Peters' research. I have before me a devastating comparative archive of these plagiarisms, compiled by Norman Finkelstein, author of "The Holocaust Industry: The Exploitation of Jewish Suffering" and "Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict". Here are but four instances, out of no less than 20 thus far discovered in the first two chapters alone.
"In the sixteenth century," Dershowitz remarks on the seventeenth page of his book, "according to British reports, "as many as 15,000 Jews" lived in Safad, which was a "center of rabbinical learning." Source cited by Dershowitz: Palestine Royal Commission Report, pp. 11-12. Turn now to page 178 of Ms. Peters' book, published nineteen years earlier: "Safad at that time, according to the British investigation by Lord Peel's committee, "contained as many as 15,000 Jews in the 16th century," and was "a centre of Rabbinical learning." Source cited by Ms Peters: Palestine Royal Commission Report, pp. 11-12. Originality displayed by Dershowitz: downgrading Rabbinical to a lower case r.
Same page of Dershowitz: "[A]ccording to the British consul in Jerusalem, the Muslims of Jerusalem "scarcely exceed[ed] one quarter of the whole population." Source cited: James Finn to Earl of Clarendon, January 1, 1858.
Peters (page 197): "In 1858 Consul Finn reported the "Mohammedans of Jerusalem" were "scarcely exceeding one-quarter of the whole population." Source cited: James Finn to Earl of Clarendon, January 1, 1858.
Dershowitz (page 18): "In 1834, Jewish homes in Jerusalem "were sacked and their women violated." Source cited: Jacob de Haas, History of Palestine (New York: 1934), p. 393.
Peters (page 183): [I]n 1834, [] "Forty thousand fellahin rushed on JerusalemThe Jews were the worst sufferers, their homes were sacked and their women violated." Source cited: Jacob de Haas, History of Palestine (New York: 1934), p. 393.
Dershowitz (page 20): "Nor could the Jew seek redress, as the report observed: 'Like the miserable dog without an owner he is kicked by one because he crosses his path, and cuffed by another because he cries out--to seek redress he is afraid, lest it bring worse upon him; he thinks it better to endure than to live in the expectation of his complaint being revenged upon him.' Source cited: Wm. T. Young to Viscount Palmerston, May 25,1839.
Peters (page 187): [T]he life for Jews described in 1839 by British Counsel Young: "[] Like the miserable dog without an owner he is kicked by one because he crosses his path, and cuffed by another because he cries out--to seek redress he is afraid, lest it bring worse upon him; he thinks it better to endure than to live in the expectation of his complaint being revenged upon him." Source cited: Wm. T. Young to Viscount Palmerston, May 25, 1839.
Dershowitz ( page 26): "A Christian historian has reported that several villages throughout Palestine "are populated wholly by settlers from other portions of the Turkish Empire within the nineteenth century. There are villages of Bosnians, Druzes, Circassians and Egyptians." Source cited: James Parkes, Whose Land? (1971), p. 212.
Peters (page 156): "In some cases villages [in Palestine] are populated wholly by settlers from other portions of the Turkish Empire within the nineteenth century. There are villages of Bosnians, Druzes, Circassians and Egyptians," one historian has reported. Source cited: James Parkes, Whose Land?, (1971) p. 212.
Dershowitz (page 26): "Four years later, it was reported that "depopulation is even now advancing." Source cited: J.B. Forsyth, A Few Months in the East (Quebec: 1861), p. 188.
Peters (page 159): "In the 1860s, it was reported that "depopulation is even now advancing." Source cited: J.B. Forsyth, A Few Months in the East (Quebec: 1861), p. 188.
Dershowitz (page 27): J.L. Burkhardt [sic] reported that as early as in the second decade of the nineteenth century, "Few individualsdie in the same village in which they were born. Families are continually moving from one place to anotherin a few years they fly to some other place, where they have heard that their brethren are better treated." Source cited: John Lewis Burckhardt, Travels in Syria and the Holy Land (New York: 1983), p. 299.
Peters (163): "John Lewis Burckhardt graphically described the migratory patterns he found in the early 1800s: "[] Few individualsdie in the same village in which they were born. Families are continually moving from one place to another [] in a few years [] they fly to some other place, where they have heard that their brethren are better treated." (p. 163) Source cited: John Lewis Burckhardt, Travels in Syria and the Holy Land (London: 1882), p. 299.
For those, on the monkeys-writing-Shakespeare analogy, who may speculate that Dershowitz somehow replicated Peters's researches unknowingly, I should add that in two very long passages, one from a letter from Wm. T. Young to Col. Patrick Campbell (May 25, 1839), and the other from Mark Twain's Innocents Abroad, Dershowitz reproduces the quotes with ellipses in exactly the same place as Peters.
Dershowitz (page 18):
The British consul, William Young, in a report to the British Foreign Office [] painted a vivid and chilling picture of the life of the Jews in Jerusalem in 1839: "I think it is my duty to inform you that there has been a Proclamation issued this week by the Government in the Jewish quarter--that no Jew is to be permitted to pray in his own house under pain of being severely punished--such as want to pray are to go into the Synagogue.. There has also been a punishment inflicted on a Jew and Jewess--most revolting to human nature, which I think it is my duty to relate. In the early part of this week, a House was entered in the Jewish Quarter, and a robbery was committed--the House was in quarantine--and the guardian was a Jew--he was taken before the Governor--he denied having any knowledge of the thief or the circumstances. In order to compel him to confess, he was laid down and beaten, and afterwards imprisoned. The following day he was again brought before the Governor, when he still declared his innocence. He was then burned with a hot iron over his face, and various parts of the body--and beaten on the lower parts of his body to the extent that the flesh hung in pieces from him The following day the poor creature died. He was a young Jew of Salonica about 28 years of age--who had been here but a very short time, he had only the week before been applying to enter my service. A young man--a Jew--having a French passport was also suspected--he fled--his character was known to be an indifferent one--his mother, an aged woman, was taken under suspicion of concealing her son--she was tied up and beaten in the most brutal way. I must say I am sorry and am surprised that the Governor could have acted so savage a part--for certainly what I have seen of him, I should have thought him superior to such wanton inhumanity--but it was a Jew--without friends or protection--it serves well to show, that it is not without reason that the poor Jew, even in the nineteenth century, lives from day to day in terror of his life." Source cited: Wm. T. Young to Colonel Patrick Campbell, May 25, 1839.
Peters (page 184):
In May 1839, for instance, the complaints registered with the British Foreign Office by Consul Young in Jerusalem were appalling. In one day, in one report: "I think it is my duty to inform you that there has been a Proclamation issued this week by the Government in the Jewish quarter--that no Jew is to be permitted to pray in his own house under pain of being severely punished--such as want to pray are to go into the Synagogue. There has also been a punishment inflicted on a Jew and Jewess--most revolting to human nature, which I think it is my duty to relate--In the early part of this week, a House was entered in the Jewish Quarter, and a robbery was committed--the House was in quarantine--and the guardian was a Jew--he was taken before the Governor--he denied having any knowledge of the thief or the circumstances. In order to compell him to confess, he was laid down and beaten, and afterwards imprisoned. The following day he was again brought before the Governor, when he still declared his innocence. He was then burned with a hot iron over his face, and various parts of the body--and beaten on the lower parts of his body to that extent that the flesh hung in pieces from him. The following day the poor creature died. He was a young Jew of Salonica about 28 years of age--who had been here but a very short time, he had only the week before been applying to enter my service. A young man--a Jew--having a French passport was also suspected--he fled--his character was known to be an indifferent one--his mother, an aged woman, was taken under suspicion of concealing her son--she was tied up and beaten in the most brutal way. I must say I am sorry and am surprised that the Governor could have acted so savage a part--for certainly what I have seen of him, I should have thought him superior to such wanton inhumanity--but it was a Jew--without friends or protection--it serves well to show, that it is not without reason that the poor Jew, even in the nineteenth century, lives from day to day in terror of his life." Source cited: Wm. T. Young to Colonel Patrick Campbell, May 25, 1839.
Dershowitz (pages 23-4)
Mark Twain, who visited Palestine in 1867, offered this description: "Stirring scenes . . . occur in the valley [Jezreel] no more. There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent--not for thirty miles in either direction. There are two or three small clusters of Bedouin tents, but not a single permanent habitation. One may ride ten miles hereabouts and not see ten human beings. . . . Come to Galilee for that . . . these unpeopled deserts, these rusty mounds of barrenness, that never, never, never do shake the glare from their harsh outlines, and fade and faint into vague perspective; that melancholy ruin of Capernaum: this stupid village of Tiberias, slumbering under its six funereal palms. . . . We reached Tabor safely. . . .We never saw a human being on the whole route. Nazareth is forlorn. . . . Jericho the accursed lies in a moldering ruin today, even as Joshua's miracle left it more than three thousand years ago; Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and their humiliations, have nothing about them now to remind one that they once knew the high honor of the Savior's presence, the hallowed spot where the shepherds watched their flocks by night, and where the angels sang, 'Peace on earth, good will to men,' is untenanted by any living creature. . . . Bethsaida and Chorzin have vanished from the earth, and the 'desert places' round about them, where thousands of men once listened to the Savior's voice and ate the miraculous bread, sleep in the hush of a solitude that is inhabited only by birds of prey and skulking foxes." Source cited: Mark Twain, The Innocents Abroad (New York: 1996), pp. 349, 366, 375, 441-442.
Peters (pages 159-60)
Mark Twain [] visited the Holy Land in 1867. In one location after another, Twain registered gloom at his findings: "Stirring scenes . . . occur in the valley [Jezreel] no more. There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent--not for thirty miles in either direction. There are two or three small clusters of Bedouin tents, but not a single permanent habitation. One may ride ten miles hereabouts and not see ten human beings. [] Come to Galilee for that . . . these unpeopled deserts, these rusty mounds of barrenness, that never, never, never do shake the glare from their harsh outlines, and fade and faint into vague perspective; that melancholy ruin of Capernaum: this stupid village of Tiberias, slumbering under its six funereal palms. . . . We reached Tabor safely. . . .We never saw a human being on the whole route. Nazareth is forlorn. . . . Jericho the accursed lies in a moldering ruin today, even as Joshua's miracle left it more than three thousand years ago; Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and their humiliations, have nothing about them now to remind one that they once knew the high honor of the Savior's presence, the hallowed spot where the shepherds watched their flocks by night, and where the angels sang, 'Peace on earth, good will to men,' is untenanted by any living creature. . . . Bethsaida and Chorzin have vanished from the earth, and the 'desert places' round about them, where thousands of men once listened to the Savior's voice and ate the miraculous bread, sleep in the hush of a solitude that is inhabited only by birds of prey and skulking foxes." Source cited: Mark Twain, The Innocents Abroad (London: 1881), pp. 349, 366, 375, 441-442.
No, I'm afraid it's beyond doubt, and any jury would remain unpersuaded by charges of prosecutorial malfeasance from Dershowitz's defending counsel: he plagiarized Peters , while simultanously claiming he hadn't used her for any historical material. One fraud ripping off another, the former at last giving the latter justifiable grounds for arguing maltreatment.
Amidst this orgy of plagiarism, Dershowitz understandably gets confused about sources . Claiming to be inspired by George Orwell, in her book Peters coined the term "turnspeak" to signal an inversion of reality. Dershowitz is apparently so nervous of citing Peters in any way that he credits the term "turnspeak" to Orwell, accusing critics of Israel of "deliberately using George Orwell's 'turnspeak'".
Over to you President Summers, or will the man so happy to dress down Prof Cornel West be more timid when it comes to confronting the occupant of the Felix Frankfurter chair?
Well Finkelstein confronted him with a multitude of erroneous "facts" and also opened up the debate for the book's entire authenticity as nothing more than a hoax "plagiarized from another fraud" (the other fraud a Joan Peters book that Finkelstein himself had exposed in 1984). Dershowitz also challenged Edward Said and/or Noam Chomsky to prove his book a lie during the debate, "Tell you what I will give $10,000 to the P.L.O. in your name if you can find a historical fact in my book that you can prove to be false. I issue that challenge, I issue it to you, I issue it to the Palestinian Authority, I issue it to Noam Chomsky to Edward Said, every word in my book is accurate and you can't just simply say it's false without documenting it."
Each and every abstract pondering, incidental reflections, even middling thoughts in passing -- ardent compositions of a literate brilliance penned by the late great Edward Said on the question of Palestine has defied time and time again this naive challenge by an author who's truths are at the very best libelous to begin with.
An animated & disruptive debate. To see it in all it's glory (hmm) go to:
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/09/24/1730205..
And now Counterpunch have set him within the vigilant grip of their vice. Hey now!! -pk
"Will Lawrence Summers Take Action? Alan Dershowitz, Plagiarist"
By ALEXANDER COCKBURN, September 26, 2003
Let's start with a passage from Alan Dershowitz's latest book, The Case for Israel, now slithering into the upper tier of Amazon's sales charts. On page 213 we meet Dershowitz, occupant of the Felix Frankfurter chair at Harvard Law School, happily walloping a French prof called Faurisson, charged by the FF prof from Harvard U as being a fraud and a holocaust denier: "There was no extensive historical research. Instead there was the fraudulent manufacturing of false antihistory. It was the kind of deception for which professors are rightly fired--not because their views are controversial, but because they are violating the most basic canons of historical scholarship.."
You want an example of Dershowitz's canons of scholarship, base rather than basic?
On pages 233-4, he writes, "In September 1970, King Hussein of Jordan killed and injured more Palestinians in one month than Israel has during three years of responding to the suicide bombing intifada." The corresponding endnote reads: "Estimates vary as to the number of Palestinians killed during "Black September," with some estimates as high as 4,000." His two cited sources for this claim? a Sony movie, One Day in September, and a chronology for a high school course outline on the Middle East conflict.
If Justice Frankfurter had fuelled decisions with this kind of scholarship he'd have been citing Marvel Comics as useful repositories of case law and precedent. If, in writings off the bench, he'd used the sort of research procedures displayed elsewhere in Dershowitz's Case for Israel he'd probably have been forced off the Supreme Court for ethical considerations of a sort that I imagine Harvard's president, Lawrence Summers, will soon be pondering in the case of Prof. Dershowitz.
Let me now usher into the narrative an important member of our cast in this drama: "From Time Immemorial: The Origins of the ArabJewish Conflict Over Palestine", a 60l- page book by Joan Peters, published in l984. Peter's polemical work strove to buttress the old Zionist thesis that the land of Israel had been "a land without people, awaiting a people without land". There was no substantial Palestinian presence, Peters claimed, before the Jewish return. Initially given an ecstatic reception by publications such the New York Times the book was soon discredited as a charnel house of disingenuous polemic. The coup de grace was administered by Professor Yehoshua Porath in the New York Review of Books for January 16 and March 27, 1986.
Though neither Peter's nor her book appear in the index to The Case for Israel, they do get a mention in note 3l of chapter 2, where Dershowitz cites the work of a 19th century French geographer called Cuinct, and adds, "See Joan Peters, From Time Immemorial (Chicago, JKAP Publications, 1984). Peters's conclusions and data have been challenged. See Said and Hitchens, p. 33. I do not in any way rely on them in this book. "Them" clearly refers to Peters' conclusions and data.
This brazen declaration is preceded in chapters one and two by wholesale, unacknowledged looting of Peters' research. I have before me a devastating comparative archive of these plagiarisms, compiled by Norman Finkelstein, author of "The Holocaust Industry: The Exploitation of Jewish Suffering" and "Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict". Here are but four instances, out of no less than 20 thus far discovered in the first two chapters alone.
"In the sixteenth century," Dershowitz remarks on the seventeenth page of his book, "according to British reports, "as many as 15,000 Jews" lived in Safad, which was a "center of rabbinical learning." Source cited by Dershowitz: Palestine Royal Commission Report, pp. 11-12. Turn now to page 178 of Ms. Peters' book, published nineteen years earlier: "Safad at that time, according to the British investigation by Lord Peel's committee, "contained as many as 15,000 Jews in the 16th century," and was "a centre of Rabbinical learning." Source cited by Ms Peters: Palestine Royal Commission Report, pp. 11-12. Originality displayed by Dershowitz: downgrading Rabbinical to a lower case r.
Same page of Dershowitz: "[A]ccording to the British consul in Jerusalem, the Muslims of Jerusalem "scarcely exceed[ed] one quarter of the whole population." Source cited: James Finn to Earl of Clarendon, January 1, 1858.
Peters (page 197): "In 1858 Consul Finn reported the "Mohammedans of Jerusalem" were "scarcely exceeding one-quarter of the whole population." Source cited: James Finn to Earl of Clarendon, January 1, 1858.
Dershowitz (page 18): "In 1834, Jewish homes in Jerusalem "were sacked and their women violated." Source cited: Jacob de Haas, History of Palestine (New York: 1934), p. 393.
Peters (page 183): [I]n 1834, [] "Forty thousand fellahin rushed on JerusalemThe Jews were the worst sufferers, their homes were sacked and their women violated." Source cited: Jacob de Haas, History of Palestine (New York: 1934), p. 393.
Dershowitz (page 20): "Nor could the Jew seek redress, as the report observed: 'Like the miserable dog without an owner he is kicked by one because he crosses his path, and cuffed by another because he cries out--to seek redress he is afraid, lest it bring worse upon him; he thinks it better to endure than to live in the expectation of his complaint being revenged upon him.' Source cited: Wm. T. Young to Viscount Palmerston, May 25,1839.
Peters (page 187): [T]he life for Jews described in 1839 by British Counsel Young: "[] Like the miserable dog without an owner he is kicked by one because he crosses his path, and cuffed by another because he cries out--to seek redress he is afraid, lest it bring worse upon him; he thinks it better to endure than to live in the expectation of his complaint being revenged upon him." Source cited: Wm. T. Young to Viscount Palmerston, May 25, 1839.
Dershowitz ( page 26): "A Christian historian has reported that several villages throughout Palestine "are populated wholly by settlers from other portions of the Turkish Empire within the nineteenth century. There are villages of Bosnians, Druzes, Circassians and Egyptians." Source cited: James Parkes, Whose Land? (1971), p. 212.
Peters (page 156): "In some cases villages [in Palestine] are populated wholly by settlers from other portions of the Turkish Empire within the nineteenth century. There are villages of Bosnians, Druzes, Circassians and Egyptians," one historian has reported. Source cited: James Parkes, Whose Land?, (1971) p. 212.
Dershowitz (page 26): "Four years later, it was reported that "depopulation is even now advancing." Source cited: J.B. Forsyth, A Few Months in the East (Quebec: 1861), p. 188.
Peters (page 159): "In the 1860s, it was reported that "depopulation is even now advancing." Source cited: J.B. Forsyth, A Few Months in the East (Quebec: 1861), p. 188.
Dershowitz (page 27): J.L. Burkhardt [sic] reported that as early as in the second decade of the nineteenth century, "Few individualsdie in the same village in which they were born. Families are continually moving from one place to anotherin a few years they fly to some other place, where they have heard that their brethren are better treated." Source cited: John Lewis Burckhardt, Travels in Syria and the Holy Land (New York: 1983), p. 299.
Peters (163): "John Lewis Burckhardt graphically described the migratory patterns he found in the early 1800s: "[] Few individualsdie in the same village in which they were born. Families are continually moving from one place to another [] in a few years [] they fly to some other place, where they have heard that their brethren are better treated." (p. 163) Source cited: John Lewis Burckhardt, Travels in Syria and the Holy Land (London: 1882), p. 299.
For those, on the monkeys-writing-Shakespeare analogy, who may speculate that Dershowitz somehow replicated Peters's researches unknowingly, I should add that in two very long passages, one from a letter from Wm. T. Young to Col. Patrick Campbell (May 25, 1839), and the other from Mark Twain's Innocents Abroad, Dershowitz reproduces the quotes with ellipses in exactly the same place as Peters.
Dershowitz (page 18):
The British consul, William Young, in a report to the British Foreign Office [] painted a vivid and chilling picture of the life of the Jews in Jerusalem in 1839: "I think it is my duty to inform you that there has been a Proclamation issued this week by the Government in the Jewish quarter--that no Jew is to be permitted to pray in his own house under pain of being severely punished--such as want to pray are to go into the Synagogue.. There has also been a punishment inflicted on a Jew and Jewess--most revolting to human nature, which I think it is my duty to relate. In the early part of this week, a House was entered in the Jewish Quarter, and a robbery was committed--the House was in quarantine--and the guardian was a Jew--he was taken before the Governor--he denied having any knowledge of the thief or the circumstances. In order to compel him to confess, he was laid down and beaten, and afterwards imprisoned. The following day he was again brought before the Governor, when he still declared his innocence. He was then burned with a hot iron over his face, and various parts of the body--and beaten on the lower parts of his body to the extent that the flesh hung in pieces from him The following day the poor creature died. He was a young Jew of Salonica about 28 years of age--who had been here but a very short time, he had only the week before been applying to enter my service. A young man--a Jew--having a French passport was also suspected--he fled--his character was known to be an indifferent one--his mother, an aged woman, was taken under suspicion of concealing her son--she was tied up and beaten in the most brutal way. I must say I am sorry and am surprised that the Governor could have acted so savage a part--for certainly what I have seen of him, I should have thought him superior to such wanton inhumanity--but it was a Jew--without friends or protection--it serves well to show, that it is not without reason that the poor Jew, even in the nineteenth century, lives from day to day in terror of his life." Source cited: Wm. T. Young to Colonel Patrick Campbell, May 25, 1839.
Peters (page 184):
In May 1839, for instance, the complaints registered with the British Foreign Office by Consul Young in Jerusalem were appalling. In one day, in one report: "I think it is my duty to inform you that there has been a Proclamation issued this week by the Government in the Jewish quarter--that no Jew is to be permitted to pray in his own house under pain of being severely punished--such as want to pray are to go into the Synagogue. There has also been a punishment inflicted on a Jew and Jewess--most revolting to human nature, which I think it is my duty to relate--In the early part of this week, a House was entered in the Jewish Quarter, and a robbery was committed--the House was in quarantine--and the guardian was a Jew--he was taken before the Governor--he denied having any knowledge of the thief or the circumstances. In order to compell him to confess, he was laid down and beaten, and afterwards imprisoned. The following day he was again brought before the Governor, when he still declared his innocence. He was then burned with a hot iron over his face, and various parts of the body--and beaten on the lower parts of his body to that extent that the flesh hung in pieces from him. The following day the poor creature died. He was a young Jew of Salonica about 28 years of age--who had been here but a very short time, he had only the week before been applying to enter my service. A young man--a Jew--having a French passport was also suspected--he fled--his character was known to be an indifferent one--his mother, an aged woman, was taken under suspicion of concealing her son--she was tied up and beaten in the most brutal way. I must say I am sorry and am surprised that the Governor could have acted so savage a part--for certainly what I have seen of him, I should have thought him superior to such wanton inhumanity--but it was a Jew--without friends or protection--it serves well to show, that it is not without reason that the poor Jew, even in the nineteenth century, lives from day to day in terror of his life." Source cited: Wm. T. Young to Colonel Patrick Campbell, May 25, 1839.
Dershowitz (pages 23-4)
Mark Twain, who visited Palestine in 1867, offered this description: "Stirring scenes . . . occur in the valley [Jezreel] no more. There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent--not for thirty miles in either direction. There are two or three small clusters of Bedouin tents, but not a single permanent habitation. One may ride ten miles hereabouts and not see ten human beings. . . . Come to Galilee for that . . . these unpeopled deserts, these rusty mounds of barrenness, that never, never, never do shake the glare from their harsh outlines, and fade and faint into vague perspective; that melancholy ruin of Capernaum: this stupid village of Tiberias, slumbering under its six funereal palms. . . . We reached Tabor safely. . . .We never saw a human being on the whole route. Nazareth is forlorn. . . . Jericho the accursed lies in a moldering ruin today, even as Joshua's miracle left it more than three thousand years ago; Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and their humiliations, have nothing about them now to remind one that they once knew the high honor of the Savior's presence, the hallowed spot where the shepherds watched their flocks by night, and where the angels sang, 'Peace on earth, good will to men,' is untenanted by any living creature. . . . Bethsaida and Chorzin have vanished from the earth, and the 'desert places' round about them, where thousands of men once listened to the Savior's voice and ate the miraculous bread, sleep in the hush of a solitude that is inhabited only by birds of prey and skulking foxes." Source cited: Mark Twain, The Innocents Abroad (New York: 1996), pp. 349, 366, 375, 441-442.
Peters (pages 159-60)
Mark Twain [] visited the Holy Land in 1867. In one location after another, Twain registered gloom at his findings: "Stirring scenes . . . occur in the valley [Jezreel] no more. There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent--not for thirty miles in either direction. There are two or three small clusters of Bedouin tents, but not a single permanent habitation. One may ride ten miles hereabouts and not see ten human beings. [] Come to Galilee for that . . . these unpeopled deserts, these rusty mounds of barrenness, that never, never, never do shake the glare from their harsh outlines, and fade and faint into vague perspective; that melancholy ruin of Capernaum: this stupid village of Tiberias, slumbering under its six funereal palms. . . . We reached Tabor safely. . . .We never saw a human being on the whole route. Nazareth is forlorn. . . . Jericho the accursed lies in a moldering ruin today, even as Joshua's miracle left it more than three thousand years ago; Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and their humiliations, have nothing about them now to remind one that they once knew the high honor of the Savior's presence, the hallowed spot where the shepherds watched their flocks by night, and where the angels sang, 'Peace on earth, good will to men,' is untenanted by any living creature. . . . Bethsaida and Chorzin have vanished from the earth, and the 'desert places' round about them, where thousands of men once listened to the Savior's voice and ate the miraculous bread, sleep in the hush of a solitude that is inhabited only by birds of prey and skulking foxes." Source cited: Mark Twain, The Innocents Abroad (London: 1881), pp. 349, 366, 375, 441-442.
No, I'm afraid it's beyond doubt, and any jury would remain unpersuaded by charges of prosecutorial malfeasance from Dershowitz's defending counsel: he plagiarized Peters , while simultanously claiming he hadn't used her for any historical material. One fraud ripping off another, the former at last giving the latter justifiable grounds for arguing maltreatment.
Amidst this orgy of plagiarism, Dershowitz understandably gets confused about sources . Claiming to be inspired by George Orwell, in her book Peters coined the term "turnspeak" to signal an inversion of reality. Dershowitz is apparently so nervous of citing Peters in any way that he credits the term "turnspeak" to Orwell, accusing critics of Israel of "deliberately using George Orwell's 'turnspeak'".
Over to you President Summers, or will the man so happy to dress down Prof Cornel West be more timid when it comes to confronting the occupant of the Felix Frankfurter chair?
For more information:
http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn092620...
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"Anti Zionism=Anti Jewish Racism"--a quote from the great American Civil rights leader, Martin Luther King Jr.
I hereby challenge Dershowitz to defend the Administrative Detainees, including children held without charges, indefinitely in Israel's Prisons.
The youngest child is 13 years old.
The youngest child is 13 years old.
For more information:
http://www.NewProfile.org
--" 'Anti Zionism=Anti Jewish Racism'--a quote from the great American Civil rights leader, Martin Luther King Jr."
This is fabrication by Israel's supporters that is commonly repeated.
There is no evidence that Marting Luther King ever said such a thing.
See:
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1113.shtml
Also, it doesn't appear that Dershowitz plagiarized anything in that book because it doesn't look like he even wrote it. Check out the video debate between him and Norman Finkelstein for this. He doesn't even know some of the things in his own book! You'd think he would at least read it (if he didn't write it) in order to be familiar with its contents...
This is fabrication by Israel's supporters that is commonly repeated.
There is no evidence that Marting Luther King ever said such a thing.
See:
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1113.shtml
Also, it doesn't appear that Dershowitz plagiarized anything in that book because it doesn't look like he even wrote it. Check out the video debate between him and Norman Finkelstein for this. He doesn't even know some of the things in his own book! You'd think he would at least read it (if he didn't write it) in order to be familiar with its contents...
& obviously that's you who gives a shit otherwise you wouldn't have written such bollox in response to the fictitious Dershowitz authenticity campaign. Now think about it Jimmy, won't ya!! -pk
The quote from Dr King is 100% accurate according to john Lewis. Electronic Intifa--what an unbiased source. Why not quote Mein Kampf?
I am pretty skeptical that Dr. King said this supposed quote, but am interested to know if you have a source where John Lewis is claiming so (as this would increase its credibility and be interesting in and of itself). Where is this interview?
>The quote from Dr King is 100% accurate according to john Lewis.
(1.) prove Lewis said that.
(2.) Prove he was right.
>Electronic Intifa--what an unbiased source.
It's less biased than bassman, a known racicist and hibitual dissembler.
(1.) prove Lewis said that.
(2.) Prove he was right.
>Electronic Intifa--what an unbiased source.
It's less biased than bassman, a known racicist and hibitual dissembler.
Hey anti-Zionist,
how you must hate MLK and John Lewis right now. He wasnt a Jew hating hippy like you. And the quote is accurate. I know you must have a problem since all your Jew hating friends have been telling you that MLK never said that, but they are all retarded.
http://www.jewish-history.com/mlk_zionism.html
* Note from jewish-history.com: We searched the archive of Saturday Review where this letter allegedly was published. This periodical is a weekly, not a monthly, so there were four issues published during the month of August, 1967. Of these four issues, two contained 76 or more pages. On p. 76 of one issue, were classified ads, on p. 76 of the other issue, a review of the Beatles album Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. There were no articles by Dr. King on Zionism or any other topic. Nor is there any anthology of Martin Luther King entitled This I Believe.
Dear jewish-history.com visitor:
We received the following message from the media watchdog group CAMERA:
We am sorry to inform you that the “Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend” allegedly written by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., is apparently a hoax. Although, the basic message of the letter was indeed, without question, spoken by Martin Luther King, Jr. in a 1968 appearance at Harvard, where he said: “When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews, You are talking anti-Semitism.” [ from “The Socialism of Fools: The Left, the Jews and Israel” by Seymour Martin Lipset; in Encounter magazine, December 1969, p. 24. ].
We were initially doubtful of the authenticity of the “Letter to an anti-Zionist Friend” because the language in the first paragraph seemed almost a parody of language used in Dr. King’s “I have a dream” speech. And it was an odd coincidence that the “Letter” was listed as being published in one of the few magazines whose archives are not able to be checked online. Additionally, we could find no reference to the “letter” prior to 1999, which was odd because the text is such a dramatic denunciation of anti-Zionism-one that would have been cited widely.
However, we then found the “letter” in a reputable 1999 book (“Shared Dreams,” by Rabbi Marc Shneier) whose preface was written by Martin Luther King III. Since the King family is known to be extremely careful with Dr. King’s legacy, we assumed they must have verified the accuracy of the book before endorsing it.
Additionally, we found that quotations from the “letter” were used on July 31, 2001, by the Anti-Defamation League’s Michael Salberg in testimony before the U.S. House of Representative’s International Relations Committee’s Subcommittee on International Operations and Human Rights. The same “source” (Saturday Review, August 1967) for the “letter” that was mentioned in the Schneier book was also cited in the testimony. Since many in the Anti-Defamation League had actually worked with Martin Luther King, Jr in the civil rights struggle, we assumed again they would be very knowledgeable about King’s work and would have thoroughly checked anything they chose to read before Congress. Based on the apparent verification of the “letter” by the King family and the ADL, we sent the “letter” to you on MLK Day.
However, because we do not ordinarily rely on anyone else’s research, we decided to double-check, by searching back issues of Saturday Review* (Rabbi Shneier’s book had referenced the “letter” as being published in the August 67 Saturday Review). Lo and behold, there is no such letter in any of the August issues, nor do the page and volume numbers cited conform to those actually used by that publication. CAMERA also checked with Boston University, where Dr. King’s work is archived. The archivists too were unable to locate any such letter. We can only conclude that no such letter was written by Dr. King. (Please note we are not implying that the apparently bogus “letter” originated with Rabbi Schneier.)
Since the message of the letter (Anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism) was one Martin Luther King, Jr. had indeed articulated, we can understand why the King family and the ADL did not feel the need to verify the “Letter to an anti-Zionist friend.” We at CAMERA apologize, though, for not looking past their endorsement when we had initial doubts about it. This episode is a reminder of the importance of verifying the authenticity and accuracy of sources, even when they appear to be solid.
Below is a January 21, 2002 op-ed by U.S. Rep. John Lewis, who worked closely with Dr. King. In the op-ed, he shares Dr. King’s views on Israel, views which stressed Israel’s democratic nature and Israel’s need for security. And he also relates that Dr. King said, “When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism.”
This quotation has been confirmed, so you should feel assured that you can use the quotation in letters. Just be sure to mention that it came from Dr. King’s 1968 Harvard University appearance, so that no one will think it is from the debunked “letter.”
The op-ed by Congressman Lewis appears below.
With our sincerest apologies,
Lee Green
Director, National Letter-Writing Group
CAMERA
Monday, January 21, 2002
(San Francisco Chronicle)
“I have a dream” for peace in the Middle East
Martin Luther King Jr.’s special bond with Israel
by John Lewis
THE REV. MARTIN Luther King Jr. understood the meaning of discrimination and oppression. He sought ways to achieve liberation and peace, and he thus understood that a special relationship exists between African Americans and American Jews.
This message was true in his time and is true today.
He knew that both peoples were uprooted involuntarily from their homelands. He knew that both peoples were shaped by the tragic experience of slavery. He knew that both peoples were forced to live in ghettoes, victims of segregation.
He knew that both peoples were subject to laws passed with the particular intent of oppressing them simply because they were Jewish or black. He knew that both peoples have been subjected to oppression and genocide on a level unprecedented in history.
King understood how important it is not to stand by in the face of injustice. He understood the cry, “Let my people go.”
Long before the plight of the Jews in the Soviet Union was on the front pages, he raised his voice. “I cannot stand idly by, even though I happen to live in the United States and even though I happen to be an American Negro and not be concerned about what happens to the Jews in Soviet Russia. For what happens to them happens to me and you, and we must be concerned.”
During his lifetime King witnessed the birth of Israel and the continuing struggle to build a nation. He consistently reiterated his stand on the Israeli-Arab conflict, stating “Israel’s right to exist as a state in security is uncontestable.” It was no accident that King emphasized “security” in his statements on the Middle East.
On March 25, 1968, less than two weeks before his tragic death, he spoke out with clarity and directness stating, “peace for Israel means security, and we must stand with all our might to protect its right to exist, its territorial integrity. I see Israel as one of the great outposts of democracy in the world, and a marvelous example of what can be done, how desert land can be transformed into an oasis of brotherhood and democracy. Peace for Israel means security and that security must be a reality.”
During the recent U.N. Conference on Racism held in Durban, South Africa, we were all shocked by the attacks on Jews, Israel and Zionism. The United States of America stood up against these vicious attacks.
Once again, the words of King ran through my memory, “I solemnly pledge to do my utmost to uphold the fair name of the Jews-because bigotry in any form is an affront to us all.”
During an appearance at Harvard University shortly before his death, a student stood up and asked King to address himself to the issue of Zionism. The question was clearly hostile. King responded, “When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism.”
King taught us many lessons. As turbulence continues to grip the Middle East, his words should continue to serve as our guide. I am convinced that were he alive today he would speak clearly calling for an end to the violence between Israelis and Arabs.
He would call upon his fellow Nobel Peace Prize winner, Yasser Arafat, to fulfill the dream of peace and do all that is within his power to stop the violence.
He would urge continuing negotiations to reduce tensions and bring about the first steps toward genuine peace.
King had a dream of an “oasis of brotherhood and democracy” in the Middle East.
As we celebrate his life and legacy, let us work for the day when Israelis and Palestinians, Jews and Muslims, will be able to sit in peace “under his vine and fig tree and none shall make him afraid.”
U.S. Rep. John Lewis, a Democrat, represents the 5th Congressional District of Georgia and worked closely with Martin Luther King Jr. during the civil rights movement.
how you must hate MLK and John Lewis right now. He wasnt a Jew hating hippy like you. And the quote is accurate. I know you must have a problem since all your Jew hating friends have been telling you that MLK never said that, but they are all retarded.
http://www.jewish-history.com/mlk_zionism.html
* Note from jewish-history.com: We searched the archive of Saturday Review where this letter allegedly was published. This periodical is a weekly, not a monthly, so there were four issues published during the month of August, 1967. Of these four issues, two contained 76 or more pages. On p. 76 of one issue, were classified ads, on p. 76 of the other issue, a review of the Beatles album Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. There were no articles by Dr. King on Zionism or any other topic. Nor is there any anthology of Martin Luther King entitled This I Believe.
Dear jewish-history.com visitor:
We received the following message from the media watchdog group CAMERA:
We am sorry to inform you that the “Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend” allegedly written by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., is apparently a hoax. Although, the basic message of the letter was indeed, without question, spoken by Martin Luther King, Jr. in a 1968 appearance at Harvard, where he said: “When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews, You are talking anti-Semitism.” [ from “The Socialism of Fools: The Left, the Jews and Israel” by Seymour Martin Lipset; in Encounter magazine, December 1969, p. 24. ].
We were initially doubtful of the authenticity of the “Letter to an anti-Zionist Friend” because the language in the first paragraph seemed almost a parody of language used in Dr. King’s “I have a dream” speech. And it was an odd coincidence that the “Letter” was listed as being published in one of the few magazines whose archives are not able to be checked online. Additionally, we could find no reference to the “letter” prior to 1999, which was odd because the text is such a dramatic denunciation of anti-Zionism-one that would have been cited widely.
However, we then found the “letter” in a reputable 1999 book (“Shared Dreams,” by Rabbi Marc Shneier) whose preface was written by Martin Luther King III. Since the King family is known to be extremely careful with Dr. King’s legacy, we assumed they must have verified the accuracy of the book before endorsing it.
Additionally, we found that quotations from the “letter” were used on July 31, 2001, by the Anti-Defamation League’s Michael Salberg in testimony before the U.S. House of Representative’s International Relations Committee’s Subcommittee on International Operations and Human Rights. The same “source” (Saturday Review, August 1967) for the “letter” that was mentioned in the Schneier book was also cited in the testimony. Since many in the Anti-Defamation League had actually worked with Martin Luther King, Jr in the civil rights struggle, we assumed again they would be very knowledgeable about King’s work and would have thoroughly checked anything they chose to read before Congress. Based on the apparent verification of the “letter” by the King family and the ADL, we sent the “letter” to you on MLK Day.
However, because we do not ordinarily rely on anyone else’s research, we decided to double-check, by searching back issues of Saturday Review* (Rabbi Shneier’s book had referenced the “letter” as being published in the August 67 Saturday Review). Lo and behold, there is no such letter in any of the August issues, nor do the page and volume numbers cited conform to those actually used by that publication. CAMERA also checked with Boston University, where Dr. King’s work is archived. The archivists too were unable to locate any such letter. We can only conclude that no such letter was written by Dr. King. (Please note we are not implying that the apparently bogus “letter” originated with Rabbi Schneier.)
Since the message of the letter (Anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism) was one Martin Luther King, Jr. had indeed articulated, we can understand why the King family and the ADL did not feel the need to verify the “Letter to an anti-Zionist friend.” We at CAMERA apologize, though, for not looking past their endorsement when we had initial doubts about it. This episode is a reminder of the importance of verifying the authenticity and accuracy of sources, even when they appear to be solid.
Below is a January 21, 2002 op-ed by U.S. Rep. John Lewis, who worked closely with Dr. King. In the op-ed, he shares Dr. King’s views on Israel, views which stressed Israel’s democratic nature and Israel’s need for security. And he also relates that Dr. King said, “When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism.”
This quotation has been confirmed, so you should feel assured that you can use the quotation in letters. Just be sure to mention that it came from Dr. King’s 1968 Harvard University appearance, so that no one will think it is from the debunked “letter.”
The op-ed by Congressman Lewis appears below.
With our sincerest apologies,
Lee Green
Director, National Letter-Writing Group
CAMERA
Monday, January 21, 2002
(San Francisco Chronicle)
“I have a dream” for peace in the Middle East
Martin Luther King Jr.’s special bond with Israel
by John Lewis
THE REV. MARTIN Luther King Jr. understood the meaning of discrimination and oppression. He sought ways to achieve liberation and peace, and he thus understood that a special relationship exists between African Americans and American Jews.
This message was true in his time and is true today.
He knew that both peoples were uprooted involuntarily from their homelands. He knew that both peoples were shaped by the tragic experience of slavery. He knew that both peoples were forced to live in ghettoes, victims of segregation.
He knew that both peoples were subject to laws passed with the particular intent of oppressing them simply because they were Jewish or black. He knew that both peoples have been subjected to oppression and genocide on a level unprecedented in history.
King understood how important it is not to stand by in the face of injustice. He understood the cry, “Let my people go.”
Long before the plight of the Jews in the Soviet Union was on the front pages, he raised his voice. “I cannot stand idly by, even though I happen to live in the United States and even though I happen to be an American Negro and not be concerned about what happens to the Jews in Soviet Russia. For what happens to them happens to me and you, and we must be concerned.”
During his lifetime King witnessed the birth of Israel and the continuing struggle to build a nation. He consistently reiterated his stand on the Israeli-Arab conflict, stating “Israel’s right to exist as a state in security is uncontestable.” It was no accident that King emphasized “security” in his statements on the Middle East.
On March 25, 1968, less than two weeks before his tragic death, he spoke out with clarity and directness stating, “peace for Israel means security, and we must stand with all our might to protect its right to exist, its territorial integrity. I see Israel as one of the great outposts of democracy in the world, and a marvelous example of what can be done, how desert land can be transformed into an oasis of brotherhood and democracy. Peace for Israel means security and that security must be a reality.”
During the recent U.N. Conference on Racism held in Durban, South Africa, we were all shocked by the attacks on Jews, Israel and Zionism. The United States of America stood up against these vicious attacks.
Once again, the words of King ran through my memory, “I solemnly pledge to do my utmost to uphold the fair name of the Jews-because bigotry in any form is an affront to us all.”
During an appearance at Harvard University shortly before his death, a student stood up and asked King to address himself to the issue of Zionism. The question was clearly hostile. King responded, “When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism.”
King taught us many lessons. As turbulence continues to grip the Middle East, his words should continue to serve as our guide. I am convinced that were he alive today he would speak clearly calling for an end to the violence between Israelis and Arabs.
He would call upon his fellow Nobel Peace Prize winner, Yasser Arafat, to fulfill the dream of peace and do all that is within his power to stop the violence.
He would urge continuing negotiations to reduce tensions and bring about the first steps toward genuine peace.
King had a dream of an “oasis of brotherhood and democracy” in the Middle East.
As we celebrate his life and legacy, let us work for the day when Israelis and Palestinians, Jews and Muslims, will be able to sit in peace “under his vine and fig tree and none shall make him afraid.”
U.S. Rep. John Lewis, a Democrat, represents the 5th Congressional District of Georgia and worked closely with Martin Luther King Jr. during the civil rights movement.
It's unfathomably cynical to use a pacifist's decades-old views to support the brutal occupation of the Palestinean people.
Professional Zionists are professional prevaricators.
Professional Zionists are professional prevaricators.
Let me get this straight--to stand up for the Jewish people and defend them against people who use any source to defame them is racism? Hey you better put down that bong and get a grip
You're not a racist because you stand up for Jews. You're a racist because you *only* stand up for Jews. Anyone who only stands up for one ethnic group is a racist. When you start also standing up for Palestinians, I'll stop calling you a racist.
Oh, be quiet with your bullshit. Your groups and this site constantly hurl ridiculous anti-israel anti-israeli-zionist nonsense around and exaggerate and lie about it, and when we jews stand up and call you on your bullshit you claim that we're being racist because we happen to be defending ourselves. Stop being antisemitic assholes and we won't have to defend ourselves anymore.
Know what the problem is with you so-called "peace" activists? You aren't calling for peace in the middle east. You aren't just calling for the end of Israel's occupation (which should only occur if palestinian leadership gaining control is MODERATE, not arafat or hamas). THE ONLY NATION ON EARTH you call to "disband" is Israel, the "zionist state." You don't call for the disbanding of Pakistan, a muslim state carved right out of pre-existing india, you don't call for the disbanding of Jordan, which is 80% of what "Palestine" the territory was, THE ONLY COUNTRY YOU ACTIVELY, CONSTANTLY single out to not only make changes but actually be broken up is the little jewish state. Arabs control over 99% of the middle east, jews control under 1%, and yet you rally not just for a plaestinian state but for the end of the jewish one.
That's "peace" for everyone but the jews.
That's "peace" for everyone but the jews.
>You claim that we're being racist because we happen to be defending ourselves.
We claim that you are racist because you defend *only* yourselves. Anyone who only defends one ethnic group is a racist. Anyone who decides who to defend on the basis of their ethnicity, is a racist. Anybody who defends racism by justifying on basis of prior persecution, is a racist. Zionists fit all these definitions. So do the the people most like them in history, the Nazis. Both Zionism and Nazism are ethnic based, aggressive, expansionist militaristic nationalisms. Only the ethnic group differs.
>Stop being antisemitic assholes and we won't have to defend ourselves anymore.
When you equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, you are telling a racist lie. We anti-Zionists are not anti-Semitic. In fact, some of us are Jews ourselves. We are anti-Zionists because we are anti-racists, and Zionism is a racist ideology. Anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism. It is anti-racism. If you oppose any form of anti-racism, you are a racist. Get over it, you racist *ssholes.
We claim that you are racist because you defend *only* yourselves. Anyone who only defends one ethnic group is a racist. Anyone who decides who to defend on the basis of their ethnicity, is a racist. Anybody who defends racism by justifying on basis of prior persecution, is a racist. Zionists fit all these definitions. So do the the people most like them in history, the Nazis. Both Zionism and Nazism are ethnic based, aggressive, expansionist militaristic nationalisms. Only the ethnic group differs.
>Stop being antisemitic assholes and we won't have to defend ourselves anymore.
When you equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, you are telling a racist lie. We anti-Zionists are not anti-Semitic. In fact, some of us are Jews ourselves. We are anti-Zionists because we are anti-racists, and Zionism is a racist ideology. Anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism. It is anti-racism. If you oppose any form of anti-racism, you are a racist. Get over it, you racist *ssholes.
Here's a response to those pro Zionist rants, some that obviously lack even the most basic proficiency in literary skill. Why target Israel? I'll tell you why - close to 5 billion in hard earned US tax dollars sent to assist in the oppression of the Palestinian people. Do you have any idea what occupation is -- it's collective punishment & through the lens of Israeli forces it is rarely as brutal (coming from Ireland I know all about occupation). Why not call to disband Pakistan? What's the current statistic on Indian refugees? The count for Palestine is somewhere between 4 - 6 million. Now as for Israel being a democracy - come on you're not that naive, or are you???
By the way if you're planning on responding with more of that scum bag, asshole, fuck head diatribe -- may as well save those words for your mama. While you're cuddled up close and she's telling you you're a good lad, everything's alright and everything you say or do is nothing short of perfection. That's right mama he be one hell of a perfectionist, just gotta learn the facts..
By the way if you're planning on responding with more of that scum bag, asshole, fuck head diatribe -- may as well save those words for your mama. While you're cuddled up close and she's telling you you're a good lad, everything's alright and everything you say or do is nothing short of perfection. That's right mama he be one hell of a perfectionist, just gotta learn the facts..
Do you protest the 3 billion sent to Egypt each year while they oppress their Coptic Christian minority or jail gays? If not, your agenda is clear and simple--Jew hatred. I think it would benefit most countries, including Israel, if we cut their aid. It only fosters dependence and resentment.
Where did you get that figure regarding US --> Egypt support? How much of it goes to its military budget? How much is actually built into the mechanisms that repress gays & christians? I'm by no means in favor of Egyptian policy however if you believe Egypt's treatment of Christians/gays is in anyway parallel to the crimes perpetuated by Sharon's government (and all previous governments) -- then you truly have some research to do in regards to this movement that you support. I mean condone Israel by all means, but at least learn the facts regarding what it is you support versus the repression "all" Palestinians suffer. The bombings in Israel, tragic as they are, affect a minority of the people. In Palestine you have endless curfews. Settlements with an apartheid structure (you ever see them?). An incessant barrage of check point humiliation. The construction of an 8-meter high, 360-kilometer long wall which, once completed, confiscates an additional 10% of Palestinian land. A routine destruction of Palestinian property supposedly deployed as a vehicle in which to quench terrorism -- or is it used to displace the indigenous people? Why not make a logical guess at the true answer. An endless and unambiguous cycle of civilian killings, torture, disappearances, etc. etc. Try living under curfew for weeks on end and you might not consider life, life.
By the way I'm far from anti Jewish however fellas like yourself are forever throwing out that anti-Semite wild card as if everyone making a rational debate opposing an apartheid state & the ethnic cleansing of Palestine is guilty of some type of war crime. For the record I'm not against Israel's right to exist, it exists therefore it is. I favor a one state solution where the rights of all citizenry are as equal. Now if you done a little research you'd realize that this is currently not even the case between light skin Jew & dark skin Jew within Israeli society. That skin color issue sure does determine a persons worth as either human or subhuman.. And don't ever forget who it was that carried out the Holocaust - it wasn't some middle East Arab nation or an Irishman for that matter hence anti-Semite is no longer required when in this context.
To conclude I quote David Ben-Gurion, Founder of that State otherwise known as Israel:
"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs, We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?"
By the way I'm far from anti Jewish however fellas like yourself are forever throwing out that anti-Semite wild card as if everyone making a rational debate opposing an apartheid state & the ethnic cleansing of Palestine is guilty of some type of war crime. For the record I'm not against Israel's right to exist, it exists therefore it is. I favor a one state solution where the rights of all citizenry are as equal. Now if you done a little research you'd realize that this is currently not even the case between light skin Jew & dark skin Jew within Israeli society. That skin color issue sure does determine a persons worth as either human or subhuman.. And don't ever forget who it was that carried out the Holocaust - it wasn't some middle East Arab nation or an Irishman for that matter hence anti-Semite is no longer required when in this context.
To conclude I quote David Ben-Gurion, Founder of that State otherwise known as Israel:
"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs, We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?"
My Mom's father came from County Cork; we were told he was nicknamed "Wild Tom Ryan", that being Mom's maiden name, and he died at a very young age, long before we are on the scene! But there we were singing all the Irish rebel songs before we could talk, not to mention Dad's Scottish roots! The importance of freedom was instilled in us from a very early age!!
In any event, moving on to the issue at hand. I have asked the same questions here over and over and over, but other than having insults and accusations of - gasp - antisemitism - hurled at one's head, there is no answer.
There is no defence to the treatment Israel doles out against the oppressed Palestinians. Hence, there's no genuine response to anyone's questions with respect to this. Anti-semitism has become a weapon, shall we say, that is constantly flung out at all and anyone who dares look askance at Israel. I'm not impressed with it.
Ariel Sharon has always wanted a "Greater Israel", and he's doing all he can to ensure that happens. To hell with the people who live in the Occupied territories. They've been terrorized and forced to leave their homes before. It's happening again, or has it, in fact, ever stopped?
I am comforted to know that there is a Higher Power!!
In any event, moving on to the issue at hand. I have asked the same questions here over and over and over, but other than having insults and accusations of - gasp - antisemitism - hurled at one's head, there is no answer.
There is no defence to the treatment Israel doles out against the oppressed Palestinians. Hence, there's no genuine response to anyone's questions with respect to this. Anti-semitism has become a weapon, shall we say, that is constantly flung out at all and anyone who dares look askance at Israel. I'm not impressed with it.
Ariel Sharon has always wanted a "Greater Israel", and he's doing all he can to ensure that happens. To hell with the people who live in the Occupied territories. They've been terrorized and forced to leave their homes before. It's happening again, or has it, in fact, ever stopped?
I am comforted to know that there is a Higher Power!!
An individual called Patrick Kelly complains of supposed lack of literary skills when it's obvious he doesn't even have his damn facts correct.
Patrick Kelly: "close to 5 billion in hard earned US tax dollars sent to assist in the oppression of the Palestinian people."
- In reality: Israel is given $2.7 billion in foreign aid annually (the loan guarantees are not given every year). Roughly half of it is military aid and the rest is ECONOMIC AID.
Patrick Kelly: "Do you have any idea what occupation is -- it's collective punishment & through the lens of Israeli forces it is rarely as brutal"
- In reality: true enough.
There's no choice except collectively punish the Palestinians in order to fight Palestinian terror (which you probably consider "fighting for freedom").
Patrick Kelly: "What's the current statistic on... refugees? The count for Palestine is somewhere between 4 - 6 million."
- In reality: the 1948 refugees number between 400,000 and 850,000. Their descendents were born abroad and cannot be considered refugees. Which other refugee problem on the planet has been inflated like Kelly and most "anti Zionists" are trying to do with the Palestinian one?
Patrick Kelly: "Now as for Israel being a democracy - come on you're not that naive, or are you???"
- In reality: while it's still somewhat of an oversimplification to call Israel a full democracy, it's a democracy nevertheless.
Patrick Kelly: "close to 5 billion in hard earned US tax dollars sent to assist in the oppression of the Palestinian people."
- In reality: Israel is given $2.7 billion in foreign aid annually (the loan guarantees are not given every year). Roughly half of it is military aid and the rest is ECONOMIC AID.
Patrick Kelly: "Do you have any idea what occupation is -- it's collective punishment & through the lens of Israeli forces it is rarely as brutal"
- In reality: true enough.
There's no choice except collectively punish the Palestinians in order to fight Palestinian terror (which you probably consider "fighting for freedom").
Patrick Kelly: "What's the current statistic on... refugees? The count for Palestine is somewhere between 4 - 6 million."
- In reality: the 1948 refugees number between 400,000 and 850,000. Their descendents were born abroad and cannot be considered refugees. Which other refugee problem on the planet has been inflated like Kelly and most "anti Zionists" are trying to do with the Palestinian one?
Patrick Kelly: "Now as for Israel being a democracy - come on you're not that naive, or are you???"
- In reality: while it's still somewhat of an oversimplification to call Israel a full democracy, it's a democracy nevertheless.
Angie, who is revealing herself to be a scumbag, said above: "Anti-semitism has become a weapon, shall we say, that is constantly flung out at all and anyone who dares look askance at Israel. I'm not impressed with it."
If that type of statement doesn't ring a bell in people's heads, then something is wrong with you.
Hey Angie, you had me fooled, but myself and others are learning a lot about you, and you're turning ugly. Really ugly.
If that type of statement doesn't ring a bell in people's heads, then something is wrong with you.
Hey Angie, you had me fooled, but myself and others are learning a lot about you, and you're turning ugly. Really ugly.
Isn't it funny how Patrick Kelly preoccupies himself with how much of US aid to Egypt is actually spent on repressing the Christian minority and other human rights abuses committed by Mubaraq's government, but didn't bother to ask the same question when he insisted "close to 5 billion in hard earned US tax dollars sent to assist in the oppression of the Palestinian people.", and not with the actual amount of US aid that goes for Israel's various military uses (as if all the assistance is used to fight terror and collectively punish the Pallys. Someone forgot to tell Kelly Israel is still facing threats from Hizballah and Syria, not to mention Iran.)?? Why does he apply a double standard to the two countries? The only logical reason is *habitual* anti-Semitism (maybe even unconscious).
P. Kelly: "I'm by no means in favor of Egyptian policy however if you believe Egypt's treatment of Christians/gays is in anyway parallel to the crimes perpetuated by Sharon's government (and all previous governments)..."
- In reality: Egypt's crimes against its minorities AND its criminal use of chemical agents in Yemen in the early 1960 (to name one example), let alone its excessive police brutality and almost non-existent defense of the arraigned, people on trial, detainees and prisoners' human rights are by far worse than any crimes the Israeli governments committed against the Palestinians, provided you learn the unbiased truth and get your facts straight, without an anti-Zionist slant. Egypt's actions have been abusive whereas the vast majority of Israel's have been defensive.
P. Kelly: "The bombings in Israel, tragic as they are, affect a minority of the people."
- In reality: true, but that's only thanks to Israel's military operations, including assassinations, and all the policing activities you proceed to mention, which amount to "collective punishment".
P. Kelly: "Settlements with an apartheid structure (you ever see them?)"
- In reality: The Jerwish residents originally didn't want it so, but security considerations (stemming from the fact the Palestinians weren't keen to accept ANY Jewish presence in their midst, not even when Jews resettled on land that Palestinians never owned) mandated otherwise.
P. Kelly: "The construction of an 8-meter high, 360-kilometer long wall which, once completed, confiscates an additional 10% of Palestinian land."
-In reality: much or most of that land the separation barrier "confiscates" is not legally owned by Palestinians.
P. Kelly: "A routine destruction of Palestinian property supposedly deployed as a vehicle in which to quench terrorism -- or is it used to displace the indigenous people?"
- In reality: it's the former. Consider for instance the case with the Qassam missiles from within Gaza strip: it's much easier to launch them from olive or other groves where the launcher can hide behind and between the trees.
P. Kelly: "An endless and unambiguous cycle of... torture, disappearances"
- In reality: doesn't occur. You've consumed this "news" from dubious sources at best.
P. Kelly: "I'm far from anti Jewish however fellas like yourself are forever throwing out that anti-Semite wild card as if everyone making a rational debate opposing an apartheid state & the ethnic cleansing of Palestine is guilty of some type of war crime. "
- In reality: The problem is you don't apply the same standard of criticism toward Israel and Arab states, like in Egypt's example, as I've shown above. And now you're echoing the Palestine ethnic cleansing and apartheid state myths which don't stand up to scrutiny. The question now is, are you really willing to study all the facts per these two myths and avoid insisting I'm wrong.
P. Kelly: "For the record I'm not against Israel's right to exist, it exists therefore it is."
- In reality: you acknowledgement of its existence is contingent on its very existence, not on its RIGHT to exist. You got your foot into your mouth.
P. Kelly: "And don't ever forget who it was that carried out the Holocaust - it wasn't some middle East Arab nation or an Irishman for that matter"
- In reality: true enough, yet there were the Palestinian Islamic leader Hajj Amin al-Husseini with his Palestinian entourage who set up Bosnian (Muslim) SS units which murdered Jews in the Balkans, and Husseini planed the Jewish "final solution" for Hitler in the Middle East and its execution in portions of north Africa (such as Libya). Rational people with at least reasonable intelligence who aren't attending an academic symposium about anti-Semitism do not quibble about this nomenclature.
P. Kelly: "hence anti-Semite is no longer required when in this context."
- In reality:The fact Arabs are also Semites doesn't detract from the fact the name for Jew-hatred which has been in common use is anti-Semitism.
P. Kelly: "but at least learn the facts regarding what it is you support versus the repression "all" Palestinians suffer. "
You should take the lead.
And...
Angie: "I have asked the same questions here over and over and over, but other than having insults and accusations of - gasp - antisemitism - hurled at one's head, there is no answer."
- In reality: she's lying and doesn't let the facts provided her in the answers permeate her mind, because of her anti-Israeli and sub-conscious anti-Semitic mind filter.
Angie: "There is no defence to the treatment Israel doles out against the oppressed Palestinians. Hence, there's no genuine response to anyone's questions with respect to this."
- In reality: Same bullshit as above, same reply applies.
Angie: "Ariel Sharon has always wanted a "Greater Israel"
- In reality: quite true. Sharon correctly maintained the disputed territories have never belonged only to Palestinians and never belonged to any Arab country called Palestine, hence wanted to eventually annex then to Israel, since they had been part of Israel - nay, the heart of Israel before the Romans put an end to Jewish independence when Israel last existed before.
Angie: "and he's doing all he can to ensure that happens."
- In reality: not true. One must be very obliviant of the facts and the history unfolding recently and nowadays to make Angie's statement.
Angie: "To hell with the people who live in the Occupied territories."
In reality: Angie forgot also more than 300,000 Jews live in the disputed territories too. Well...
P. Kelly: "I'm by no means in favor of Egyptian policy however if you believe Egypt's treatment of Christians/gays is in anyway parallel to the crimes perpetuated by Sharon's government (and all previous governments)..."
- In reality: Egypt's crimes against its minorities AND its criminal use of chemical agents in Yemen in the early 1960 (to name one example), let alone its excessive police brutality and almost non-existent defense of the arraigned, people on trial, detainees and prisoners' human rights are by far worse than any crimes the Israeli governments committed against the Palestinians, provided you learn the unbiased truth and get your facts straight, without an anti-Zionist slant. Egypt's actions have been abusive whereas the vast majority of Israel's have been defensive.
P. Kelly: "The bombings in Israel, tragic as they are, affect a minority of the people."
- In reality: true, but that's only thanks to Israel's military operations, including assassinations, and all the policing activities you proceed to mention, which amount to "collective punishment".
P. Kelly: "Settlements with an apartheid structure (you ever see them?)"
- In reality: The Jerwish residents originally didn't want it so, but security considerations (stemming from the fact the Palestinians weren't keen to accept ANY Jewish presence in their midst, not even when Jews resettled on land that Palestinians never owned) mandated otherwise.
P. Kelly: "The construction of an 8-meter high, 360-kilometer long wall which, once completed, confiscates an additional 10% of Palestinian land."
-In reality: much or most of that land the separation barrier "confiscates" is not legally owned by Palestinians.
P. Kelly: "A routine destruction of Palestinian property supposedly deployed as a vehicle in which to quench terrorism -- or is it used to displace the indigenous people?"
- In reality: it's the former. Consider for instance the case with the Qassam missiles from within Gaza strip: it's much easier to launch them from olive or other groves where the launcher can hide behind and between the trees.
P. Kelly: "An endless and unambiguous cycle of... torture, disappearances"
- In reality: doesn't occur. You've consumed this "news" from dubious sources at best.
P. Kelly: "I'm far from anti Jewish however fellas like yourself are forever throwing out that anti-Semite wild card as if everyone making a rational debate opposing an apartheid state & the ethnic cleansing of Palestine is guilty of some type of war crime. "
- In reality: The problem is you don't apply the same standard of criticism toward Israel and Arab states, like in Egypt's example, as I've shown above. And now you're echoing the Palestine ethnic cleansing and apartheid state myths which don't stand up to scrutiny. The question now is, are you really willing to study all the facts per these two myths and avoid insisting I'm wrong.
P. Kelly: "For the record I'm not against Israel's right to exist, it exists therefore it is."
- In reality: you acknowledgement of its existence is contingent on its very existence, not on its RIGHT to exist. You got your foot into your mouth.
P. Kelly: "And don't ever forget who it was that carried out the Holocaust - it wasn't some middle East Arab nation or an Irishman for that matter"
- In reality: true enough, yet there were the Palestinian Islamic leader Hajj Amin al-Husseini with his Palestinian entourage who set up Bosnian (Muslim) SS units which murdered Jews in the Balkans, and Husseini planed the Jewish "final solution" for Hitler in the Middle East and its execution in portions of north Africa (such as Libya). Rational people with at least reasonable intelligence who aren't attending an academic symposium about anti-Semitism do not quibble about this nomenclature.
P. Kelly: "hence anti-Semite is no longer required when in this context."
- In reality:The fact Arabs are also Semites doesn't detract from the fact the name for Jew-hatred which has been in common use is anti-Semitism.
P. Kelly: "but at least learn the facts regarding what it is you support versus the repression "all" Palestinians suffer. "
You should take the lead.
And...
Angie: "I have asked the same questions here over and over and over, but other than having insults and accusations of - gasp - antisemitism - hurled at one's head, there is no answer."
- In reality: she's lying and doesn't let the facts provided her in the answers permeate her mind, because of her anti-Israeli and sub-conscious anti-Semitic mind filter.
Angie: "There is no defence to the treatment Israel doles out against the oppressed Palestinians. Hence, there's no genuine response to anyone's questions with respect to this."
- In reality: Same bullshit as above, same reply applies.
Angie: "Ariel Sharon has always wanted a "Greater Israel"
- In reality: quite true. Sharon correctly maintained the disputed territories have never belonged only to Palestinians and never belonged to any Arab country called Palestine, hence wanted to eventually annex then to Israel, since they had been part of Israel - nay, the heart of Israel before the Romans put an end to Jewish independence when Israel last existed before.
Angie: "and he's doing all he can to ensure that happens."
- In reality: not true. One must be very obliviant of the facts and the history unfolding recently and nowadays to make Angie's statement.
Angie: "To hell with the people who live in the Occupied territories."
In reality: Angie forgot also more than 300,000 Jews live in the disputed territories too. Well...
Do you have any idea how totally outrageous you and your ilk sound when you come on here ranting and raving, calling people "scumbags", wishing to see them get this disease or that, to rot in hell, and the ever present "f" word to make it more dramatic??
People come on here and discuss anything under the sun rationally and without personal attacks. Mention Israel, and, lo, we're all of the above, and the secret weapon, anti-semitism is brought into play. It is used everywhere when even the remotest critical comment is uttered, written, or even thought (some of you like to think you know what we're thinking as well, let's not forget).
You want to call me an anti-semite? Do whatever you want. Say whatever you want. It's not going to change the fact that Israel is oppressing the peoples of Palestine and occupying their lands. I'm not the one out there doing it.
Furthermore, my views on this situation have never changed, and they won't until there is a just and dignified peace. Then there won't be any reason to look askance at your little state, will there?
People come on here and discuss anything under the sun rationally and without personal attacks. Mention Israel, and, lo, we're all of the above, and the secret weapon, anti-semitism is brought into play. It is used everywhere when even the remotest critical comment is uttered, written, or even thought (some of you like to think you know what we're thinking as well, let's not forget).
You want to call me an anti-semite? Do whatever you want. Say whatever you want. It's not going to change the fact that Israel is oppressing the peoples of Palestine and occupying their lands. I'm not the one out there doing it.
Furthermore, my views on this situation have never changed, and they won't until there is a just and dignified peace. Then there won't be any reason to look askance at your little state, will there?
Didn't think I'd ever see so much brainwashing propaganda on one page, but there it is for ya.
Read a book lads and lay off Angie. If you're unable to comprehend the truth don't take it out on her for not falling into the same trap all of you fell into. Make believe rethoric claiming itself as factual substance. Hold onto those sheepish ideals and buy us a pint with the change.
And don't forget - read a little, it'll help alot!!
Read a book lads and lay off Angie. If you're unable to comprehend the truth don't take it out on her for not falling into the same trap all of you fell into. Make believe rethoric claiming itself as factual substance. Hold onto those sheepish ideals and buy us a pint with the change.
And don't forget - read a little, it'll help alot!!
Like your counterpart, "Antibullshit" on this Board, it's hysterical that you would consider yourself a "corrector" any more than he(she) likes to think of himself(herself) as "Anti-bullshit".
I'll just call you "Idiot", as I call "anti-bullshit" simply "bullshit". To do otherwise would be to give credence to your patronizing pomposity.
Calling me a liar is no big deal. The people that matter know the truth. The people that matter know me. If I need help, I go to the people that are honest and wise because, as I've been told, the only opinions
that matter are the opinions of the righteous and wise. You haven't proven to be either.
You can make all the accusations and snide inneundos you wish. Stand on your head if you want. It matters not to me. Throw out all the old time worn rhetoric we've heard so often before by yourself and your pals. It never changes. Once we hear from some of you, we've heard from all of you. Can't make a civil comment if your life depended on it, etc., etc. Can't get away from the accusation of "lying", the hints of myself or someone else being antisemitic. It is but to laugh at such presumptions.
We know about the jews (300,000, is it? Didn't know it was that many!) living in the Occupied Territories. I assume you are referring to the "setlers", surrounded, as they are, by the IDF, and whose only apparent aim in life is to cause as much grief to the Palestinians as possible? We've seen the pictures, yes, of the behaviour of some of them including one that was on this Board last night showing a brat kicking an elderly Palestinian woman. I'd like to see that happen on my street!
Perhaps Patrick Kelly hails from Northern Ireland. If so, he would be able to tell us a lot about being under "occupation". If he is, I hope he will tell us how "occupation" shaped his life.
I would really like to know, and I'm sure the board would like to know, how you and your crowd can reconcile the blatant theft of land, homes, livelihood, the non-stop erection of settlements, with the terms and conditions of the 4th Geneva Convention (which specified no dispossession and no facts on the ground); the Oslo Accords, even the so-called Road Map.
Right! There is no reconciliation because Israel has defiantly ignored international law, UN resolutions, the Fourth Geneva Convention. Don't hear you prattling away about that, do we?
I'll just call you "Idiot", as I call "anti-bullshit" simply "bullshit". To do otherwise would be to give credence to your patronizing pomposity.
Calling me a liar is no big deal. The people that matter know the truth. The people that matter know me. If I need help, I go to the people that are honest and wise because, as I've been told, the only opinions
that matter are the opinions of the righteous and wise. You haven't proven to be either.
You can make all the accusations and snide inneundos you wish. Stand on your head if you want. It matters not to me. Throw out all the old time worn rhetoric we've heard so often before by yourself and your pals. It never changes. Once we hear from some of you, we've heard from all of you. Can't make a civil comment if your life depended on it, etc., etc. Can't get away from the accusation of "lying", the hints of myself or someone else being antisemitic. It is but to laugh at such presumptions.
We know about the jews (300,000, is it? Didn't know it was that many!) living in the Occupied Territories. I assume you are referring to the "setlers", surrounded, as they are, by the IDF, and whose only apparent aim in life is to cause as much grief to the Palestinians as possible? We've seen the pictures, yes, of the behaviour of some of them including one that was on this Board last night showing a brat kicking an elderly Palestinian woman. I'd like to see that happen on my street!
Perhaps Patrick Kelly hails from Northern Ireland. If so, he would be able to tell us a lot about being under "occupation". If he is, I hope he will tell us how "occupation" shaped his life.
I would really like to know, and I'm sure the board would like to know, how you and your crowd can reconcile the blatant theft of land, homes, livelihood, the non-stop erection of settlements, with the terms and conditions of the 4th Geneva Convention (which specified no dispossession and no facts on the ground); the Oslo Accords, even the so-called Road Map.
Right! There is no reconciliation because Israel has defiantly ignored international law, UN resolutions, the Fourth Geneva Convention. Don't hear you prattling away about that, do we?
1. I can't say P. Kelly surprised me with his Pavlovian mumbling and juggling. That's what his screed has been reduced to.
Kelly, you can't refute the facts! Go back to school while you still have some chance of not descending to Angie's pathetic state.
2. Narrowing down all possible slurs which could be slung out at Angie to "Idiot" and "bullshit" and "liar"would be charitable toward Angie, for they barely cover the surface of her detestation of facts favorable to Israel.
I laugh at someone like you who cannot but look at the Arab-Israeli conflict through an anti-Semitic lens.
You see only what fits your pro-Palestinian bias and avert your eyes from everything else. The generalization you've made about all Jewish residents in the disputed territories betrays your selective ignorance...there are quite a few secular Jews (hell, even many religious) living in Ariel, for example, which have normal lives just like any middle class person in the Western world.
Several leading experts on international law have conceded the territories are indeed disputed and not "occupied"; settlement erection has mostly not been a problem as far as I'm concerned, because ALMOST all villages were erected on land not stolen for Palestinians, while refraining from robbing them of livelihood or destroying their property. Cities and towns were undoubtedly built legally and morally. You've misread the 4th Geneva Convention and the Oslo Accords, kiddie.
Go on daydreaming in your wonderland. You post a substantial portion of your postings while you're drousy anyway.
Perhaps you should go hug a tree, then go back to kindergarten, spend 12 more years in a school without an ultra-liberal affiliation. Then we could see whether you had matured and willing to view the Arab-Israeli conflict unimpeded by your current smart ass idiocy.
Kelly, you can't refute the facts! Go back to school while you still have some chance of not descending to Angie's pathetic state.
2. Narrowing down all possible slurs which could be slung out at Angie to "Idiot" and "bullshit" and "liar"would be charitable toward Angie, for they barely cover the surface of her detestation of facts favorable to Israel.
I laugh at someone like you who cannot but look at the Arab-Israeli conflict through an anti-Semitic lens.
You see only what fits your pro-Palestinian bias and avert your eyes from everything else. The generalization you've made about all Jewish residents in the disputed territories betrays your selective ignorance...there are quite a few secular Jews (hell, even many religious) living in Ariel, for example, which have normal lives just like any middle class person in the Western world.
Several leading experts on international law have conceded the territories are indeed disputed and not "occupied"; settlement erection has mostly not been a problem as far as I'm concerned, because ALMOST all villages were erected on land not stolen for Palestinians, while refraining from robbing them of livelihood or destroying their property. Cities and towns were undoubtedly built legally and morally. You've misread the 4th Geneva Convention and the Oslo Accords, kiddie.
Go on daydreaming in your wonderland. You post a substantial portion of your postings while you're drousy anyway.
Perhaps you should go hug a tree, then go back to kindergarten, spend 12 more years in a school without an ultra-liberal affiliation. Then we could see whether you had matured and willing to view the Arab-Israeli conflict unimpeded by your current smart ass idiocy.
Some funny beliefs out there. Angie a word to the wise, save your energy. This pro Zionist stance is infiltrated in extreme prejudice. Sharing stories of what occupation is would prove irrelevant, as they should while dealing with patented rhetoric. The pro Zionist should spend some time on Palestinian soil, a few days perhaps. A short term in Northern Ireland (well nowadays it's not so bad, I'm from the Republic though). By the way you know the Northern Loyalists are Israeli supporters, the flag can be seen down the Shankill Road.
This is not a struggle for equality, it's determination in maintaining the upper hand while depriving the many. Read back over idiot connector's words, his example of Egyptian terror was back-dated to 1960. Attempts to claim Israel is in threat of sabotage via Iranian & Syrian armament is a massive joke considering the might of the Israeli army -- # 4 in the world, 5th largest nuclear power, not to mention their assistance in training some of the world's most repressive military regimes & of course uncle Sam's infinite support for it's Deputy General in the region. The words "land that Palestinians never owned" is endlessly referenced. That land is Palestine, all of it - this I firmly believe. However since Israel does exist then the compromise should be one land for both peoples. Does this mean I'm against Jews or against the displacement of a people. If I were against Jews I'd be against areas in Brooklyn, NY. The argument they purport is ridiculous & callous, unable to even feel how the Palestinian must feel having been displaced. 1948 refugees, idiot connector's numbers are accurate, close to 1 million displaced - however for him to assume that their descendants should not be entitled to the land of their fathers is racist, 100%. His children should not return to his home - is this the argument we make?
These people know nothing of, and care little for, human rights. Go to the war zones, raise a child under military curfew. If they hate people like us due to comments in support of Palestinian resistance what makes you believe they'd not become the same people on Jerusalem streets strapped to the hilt with explosives if brought up under Palestinian "living" conditions? Such is the calamity of their hatred, not ours. They might even hate each other. We have a term for these people back home -- shite bags -- we call them shite bags 'cause they shit in a bag. I think these lads eat it afterwards, then hit the keyboard for someone else to indulge in the aroma of their ideal. Ideologies in a bag of shite. They're even afraid to print their real names, ashamed of who they really are they live under the disillusionment of being mentors for other shite bags, a whole roomful of ideologies in a raw smelly container. Just as well we have a sense of humor so we can laugh them off.
Alright Jimmy boy, lay down the brainless comments all you want -- I'm out of this idiotic circus.. By the way "There's no choice except collectively punish the Palestinians". You ever state that while face to face with an Irish man and you'll feel a fucking stringent stinging sensation in your balls. I've got nothing against Jews but pathetic cowardly sissy bastard wimps like yourself, I truly despise -- & get your arse out of that bag, you've shit enough today!!
This is not a struggle for equality, it's determination in maintaining the upper hand while depriving the many. Read back over idiot connector's words, his example of Egyptian terror was back-dated to 1960. Attempts to claim Israel is in threat of sabotage via Iranian & Syrian armament is a massive joke considering the might of the Israeli army -- # 4 in the world, 5th largest nuclear power, not to mention their assistance in training some of the world's most repressive military regimes & of course uncle Sam's infinite support for it's Deputy General in the region. The words "land that Palestinians never owned" is endlessly referenced. That land is Palestine, all of it - this I firmly believe. However since Israel does exist then the compromise should be one land for both peoples. Does this mean I'm against Jews or against the displacement of a people. If I were against Jews I'd be against areas in Brooklyn, NY. The argument they purport is ridiculous & callous, unable to even feel how the Palestinian must feel having been displaced. 1948 refugees, idiot connector's numbers are accurate, close to 1 million displaced - however for him to assume that their descendants should not be entitled to the land of their fathers is racist, 100%. His children should not return to his home - is this the argument we make?
These people know nothing of, and care little for, human rights. Go to the war zones, raise a child under military curfew. If they hate people like us due to comments in support of Palestinian resistance what makes you believe they'd not become the same people on Jerusalem streets strapped to the hilt with explosives if brought up under Palestinian "living" conditions? Such is the calamity of their hatred, not ours. They might even hate each other. We have a term for these people back home -- shite bags -- we call them shite bags 'cause they shit in a bag. I think these lads eat it afterwards, then hit the keyboard for someone else to indulge in the aroma of their ideal. Ideologies in a bag of shite. They're even afraid to print their real names, ashamed of who they really are they live under the disillusionment of being mentors for other shite bags, a whole roomful of ideologies in a raw smelly container. Just as well we have a sense of humor so we can laugh them off.
Alright Jimmy boy, lay down the brainless comments all you want -- I'm out of this idiotic circus.. By the way "There's no choice except collectively punish the Palestinians". You ever state that while face to face with an Irish man and you'll feel a fucking stringent stinging sensation in your balls. I've got nothing against Jews but pathetic cowardly sissy bastard wimps like yourself, I truly despise -- & get your arse out of that bag, you've shit enough today!!
>"By the way you know the Northern Loyalists are Israeli supporters, the flag can be seen down the Shankill Road."
What point are you trying to make here? It sounds like it is either racist or just plain irrelevant.
> This is not a struggle for equality, it's determination in maintaining the upper hand while depriving the many.
you may not have noticed but in israel "the many" are the jews (by a long way). and in northern island "the many" are the prodestants (although its pretty close there). So your point above is a comentary on yourself.
>Attempts to claim Israel is in threat of sabotage via Iranian & Syrian armament is a massive joke considering the might of the Israeli army -- # 4 in the world, 5th largest nuclear power."
Israel can win a war against syria if it has to but can't you at least be slightly concerned about the few thousand israeli and syrian people who might get killed in the process? or are you too busy laughing about your *joke*?
> however for him to assume that their descendants should not be entitled to the land of their fathers is racist, 100%.
- Not nessercerily. Only if he also believed that other races had the same rights in similar situations.
I for example dont believe anyone should have any right to the land of their ancestors. and in case you didnt guess Im in favour of land taxes and death duties (in principle, anyway).
Also it isnt practical to give everyone back all the land their ancestors once owned. amongst millions of other stupid questions you would have to answer -what date will you arbitrarily declare as the statue of limitations? how about if you have one parent or two from there do you get different shares? (etc etc)
> what makes you believe they'd not become the same people on Jerusalem streets strapped to the hilt with explosives if brought up under Palestinian "living" conditions?
This argument is the same as "leave charles manson alone because if you lived his life you would kill people too" Now go apply that to every other person who did somthing evil in the world.... starting to feel stupid?
If someone tries to kill someone else morally speaking they have a right to take whatever action nessercary to protect themselves and it is irrelevant WHY the person decided to do it.
What point are you trying to make here? It sounds like it is either racist or just plain irrelevant.
> This is not a struggle for equality, it's determination in maintaining the upper hand while depriving the many.
you may not have noticed but in israel "the many" are the jews (by a long way). and in northern island "the many" are the prodestants (although its pretty close there). So your point above is a comentary on yourself.
>Attempts to claim Israel is in threat of sabotage via Iranian & Syrian armament is a massive joke considering the might of the Israeli army -- # 4 in the world, 5th largest nuclear power."
Israel can win a war against syria if it has to but can't you at least be slightly concerned about the few thousand israeli and syrian people who might get killed in the process? or are you too busy laughing about your *joke*?
> however for him to assume that their descendants should not be entitled to the land of their fathers is racist, 100%.
- Not nessercerily. Only if he also believed that other races had the same rights in similar situations.
I for example dont believe anyone should have any right to the land of their ancestors. and in case you didnt guess Im in favour of land taxes and death duties (in principle, anyway).
Also it isnt practical to give everyone back all the land their ancestors once owned. amongst millions of other stupid questions you would have to answer -what date will you arbitrarily declare as the statue of limitations? how about if you have one parent or two from there do you get different shares? (etc etc)
> what makes you believe they'd not become the same people on Jerusalem streets strapped to the hilt with explosives if brought up under Palestinian "living" conditions?
This argument is the same as "leave charles manson alone because if you lived his life you would kill people too" Now go apply that to every other person who did somthing evil in the world.... starting to feel stupid?
If someone tries to kill someone else morally speaking they have a right to take whatever action nessercary to protect themselves and it is irrelevant WHY the person decided to do it.
You've spouted some more doubious and unfounded claims.
- "the might of the Israeli army...5th largest nuclear power"
- In reality: this figure is debatable. For example: "Israel, for example, despite possessing what some believe to be the sixth-largest nuclear arsenal in the world " (http://www.terrorismcentral.com/Library/Bookshelf/Reviews/review03.html).
- "That land is Palestine, all of it - this I firmly believe."
- In reality: true.
It has been called Palestine since 135 AD, when the Romans renamed the Land of Israel (or Judeah, as the entire land was known at that period) so. But there was never a country named Palestine governed by Palestinian Arabs who were ever independent with any trappings of statehood. One more myth down for Kelly.
- "The argument they purport is ridiculous & callous, unable to even feel how the Palestinian must feel having been displaced."
- In reality: you haven't penetrated mine and others' minds to qualify you to come out with what you consider such an infallible statement.
- "close to 1 million displaced - however for him to assume that their descendants should not be entitled to the land of their fathers is racist, 100%. His children should not return to his home - is this the argument we make?"
- In reality: Kudos for indirectly agreeing the descendents aren't really refugees and cannot be considered such for a solution.
Yet your claim I'm racist for having claimed they can't return is balderdash. Claiming they shouldn't and can't return doesn't make one a racist. You also should look up 'racist' in a dictionary to give you additional insight into your folly. But to claim Palestine was the fatherland of all those who had either left willingly or fled during the war is another unfounded assertion too many make. You're not alone in that; not that it makes you right. Palestinians didn't even call themselves so before 1967. Most Palestinians have come after 1882 from neighboring Arab countries, see http://www.fortruthssake.com/refugeezone/whoispalref.asp .
- "These people know nothing of, and care little for, human rights."
- In reality: yes, the Palestinians fall neatly under this category. Get a grip of the reality over the past 36 years in the disputed territories and you'll conclude Israel's human rights record is far from perfect yet far better than all the neighboring Arab states' and the Palestinians'.
Kelly, you've predictably enough obscured my point from before: you may not be against Jews per se, yet you don't apply the same standard to Israel and Arab countries when you citicize.
Boy I love it when "anti-Zionists" lose their composure and go on a vulgar ad hominem spree...wash your obscene mouth with a good soapbar.
PS: funny we don't see "debate coach" berating Kelly (or any other "anti-Zionist" for that matter) for his ad homs...
- "the might of the Israeli army...5th largest nuclear power"
- In reality: this figure is debatable. For example: "Israel, for example, despite possessing what some believe to be the sixth-largest nuclear arsenal in the world " (http://www.terrorismcentral.com/Library/Bookshelf/Reviews/review03.html).
- "That land is Palestine, all of it - this I firmly believe."
- In reality: true.
It has been called Palestine since 135 AD, when the Romans renamed the Land of Israel (or Judeah, as the entire land was known at that period) so. But there was never a country named Palestine governed by Palestinian Arabs who were ever independent with any trappings of statehood. One more myth down for Kelly.
- "The argument they purport is ridiculous & callous, unable to even feel how the Palestinian must feel having been displaced."
- In reality: you haven't penetrated mine and others' minds to qualify you to come out with what you consider such an infallible statement.
- "close to 1 million displaced - however for him to assume that their descendants should not be entitled to the land of their fathers is racist, 100%. His children should not return to his home - is this the argument we make?"
- In reality: Kudos for indirectly agreeing the descendents aren't really refugees and cannot be considered such for a solution.
Yet your claim I'm racist for having claimed they can't return is balderdash. Claiming they shouldn't and can't return doesn't make one a racist. You also should look up 'racist' in a dictionary to give you additional insight into your folly. But to claim Palestine was the fatherland of all those who had either left willingly or fled during the war is another unfounded assertion too many make. You're not alone in that; not that it makes you right. Palestinians didn't even call themselves so before 1967. Most Palestinians have come after 1882 from neighboring Arab countries, see http://www.fortruthssake.com/refugeezone/whoispalref.asp .
- "These people know nothing of, and care little for, human rights."
- In reality: yes, the Palestinians fall neatly under this category. Get a grip of the reality over the past 36 years in the disputed territories and you'll conclude Israel's human rights record is far from perfect yet far better than all the neighboring Arab states' and the Palestinians'.
Kelly, you've predictably enough obscured my point from before: you may not be against Jews per se, yet you don't apply the same standard to Israel and Arab countries when you citicize.
Boy I love it when "anti-Zionists" lose their composure and go on a vulgar ad hominem spree...wash your obscene mouth with a good soapbar.
PS: funny we don't see "debate coach" berating Kelly (or any other "anti-Zionist" for that matter) for his ad homs...
I take it you haven't been around here very long. Otherwise, you'd know that brainwashing propaganda is the norm when one criticizes Israel. They come out of the woodwork sprouting the same old crap under different names and using different swear words. In the beginning five months ago I was in a state of shock that fellow humans behaved that way. Ah, but one grows up fast here!.
When you have, as you obviously and blessedly do, an independent mind, my friend, you are always a target for verbal assaults. The stuff by certain people in this thread are from the brainwashed who wouldn't know an independent thought, much less an independent mind, if he/she fell over it.
Sometimes I ignore them, sometimes I respond. Always I feel sorry for them. They are missing so much wonderful things in life - for instance, truth, and the ability to think for themselves.
When you have, as you obviously and blessedly do, an independent mind, my friend, you are always a target for verbal assaults. The stuff by certain people in this thread are from the brainwashed who wouldn't know an independent thought, much less an independent mind, if he/she fell over it.
Sometimes I ignore them, sometimes I respond. Always I feel sorry for them. They are missing so much wonderful things in life - for instance, truth, and the ability to think for themselves.
Poor "bull".
Never thought you'd be so obliging! There you are. You've proved my point. Don't have an independent thought in your head, do youi? Otherwise, you would not need my comments to submit a post.
Again, poor "bull".
Never thought you'd be so obliging! There you are. You've proved my point. Don't have an independent thought in your head, do youi? Otherwise, you would not need my comments to submit a post.
Again, poor "bull".
I've proven you had *no point*.
I didn't see fit to respond in a different manner since it wouldn't have illuminated your last trove of sheer stupidity as the paraphrasing did.
I forgot to tell you you're missing something like real life friends and other positive experiences by staying so much in your home or in a public library as long as you don't need to make forays into emergency rooms and clinics, or to the market, or to run other errands.
I didn't see fit to respond in a different manner since it wouldn't have illuminated your last trove of sheer stupidity as the paraphrasing did.
I forgot to tell you you're missing something like real life friends and other positive experiences by staying so much in your home or in a public library as long as you don't need to make forays into emergency rooms and clinics, or to the market, or to run other errands.
Why, "Bull", are you concerned about my "real life"? How very touching!
Actually, man, I have a very happy life, with some very close and dear friends, a flexible career, numerous interests, numerous activities. I'm a budding guitarist, I volunteer with two or three local groups, help out my favourite political party at election time, go to peace meetings, marches, vigils, take in my favourite concerts, cheer on my favourite local musicians, play with Freedom, sit on Boards. What have I forgotten?
And when I needed surgery on my foot earlier this month I had a doctor do it rather than attempt it myself. Isn't that what you'd do? When I need food I go to the market; when I want to know what you're all saying (hehehe) I check out the Board.
Believe me, there is not enough time in a day, and not only that, but you're wasting my time right now that I could put to better use.
You could try having a wee life yourself, 'Bull".
Actually, man, I have a very happy life, with some very close and dear friends, a flexible career, numerous interests, numerous activities. I'm a budding guitarist, I volunteer with two or three local groups, help out my favourite political party at election time, go to peace meetings, marches, vigils, take in my favourite concerts, cheer on my favourite local musicians, play with Freedom, sit on Boards. What have I forgotten?
And when I needed surgery on my foot earlier this month I had a doctor do it rather than attempt it myself. Isn't that what you'd do? When I need food I go to the market; when I want to know what you're all saying (hehehe) I check out the Board.
Believe me, there is not enough time in a day, and not only that, but you're wasting my time right now that I could put to better use.
You could try having a wee life yourself, 'Bull".
You talk about it!
There's "Idiot Corrector", whom, for obvious reasons, I''ve preferred to call "Idiot", distressed because of Patrick Kelly's language and suggesting that he "wash your obscene mouth with a good soap bar".
This coming from someone who no doubt has seen on this Board the filth by his comrades who never have "cool" to loose. Would you like to be reminded of the dispicable comments that have been spewed on this Board by others?
Never saw any suggestion by Idiot to have them cleanse out their filthy mouths! And yet here he is, acting offended re the "Irish tantrum", and whining about Debate Coach's alleged lack of attention to ad homs.
Geez and all that!
There's "Idiot Corrector", whom, for obvious reasons, I''ve preferred to call "Idiot", distressed because of Patrick Kelly's language and suggesting that he "wash your obscene mouth with a good soap bar".
This coming from someone who no doubt has seen on this Board the filth by his comrades who never have "cool" to loose. Would you like to be reminded of the dispicable comments that have been spewed on this Board by others?
Never saw any suggestion by Idiot to have them cleanse out their filthy mouths! And yet here he is, acting offended re the "Irish tantrum", and whining about Debate Coach's alleged lack of attention to ad homs.
Geez and all that!
Okay, I admit it. I do spend all my time in the public library, and I sleep on the bench in the nearby park. It's not so bad. If I had a man in my life I might do things differently; but look at me--who would have anything to do with me?
I did not write the above post entitled "I admit it" (or whatever the hell it is).
Certainly from the inability to form a coherent, intelligient response, the forger should visit a library for a while; but, then, he (she) has probably never been inside one nor knows what a library is.
Certainly from the inability to form a coherent, intelligient response, the forger should visit a library for a while; but, then, he (she) has probably never been inside one nor knows what a library is.
Dear Angie,
Stop wasting your time attempting to fight our Zionist impersonation games and deception. Misquoting others, impersonations and, insults, swears, threats, and downright lies are what we Zionists use to get our point across, you should know that by now.
We don't attempt to present the truth to present our Zionist ideology. Because it is difficult to use the truth to back up a lie of such magnitude.
You make the mistake of trying to reason with us as you would with rational and honest human beings.
Don't make that mistake. We will just misquote you, and on the basis of our twisting of your words, will label you a terrorist or an antisemite.
Defending human rights and presenting the truth are not things that make us Zionists very happy. Just sit back, flick on the TV, and watch Dan Rather or Geraldo Rivera spout off the lies our boys in Tel Aviv pay them to tell you and millions of other people around the world. Then you will be 'politically correct'.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
Stop wasting your time attempting to fight our Zionist impersonation games and deception. Misquoting others, impersonations and, insults, swears, threats, and downright lies are what we Zionists use to get our point across, you should know that by now.
We don't attempt to present the truth to present our Zionist ideology. Because it is difficult to use the truth to back up a lie of such magnitude.
You make the mistake of trying to reason with us as you would with rational and honest human beings.
Don't make that mistake. We will just misquote you, and on the basis of our twisting of your words, will label you a terrorist or an antisemite.
Defending human rights and presenting the truth are not things that make us Zionists very happy. Just sit back, flick on the TV, and watch Dan Rather or Geraldo Rivera spout off the lies our boys in Tel Aviv pay them to tell you and millions of other people around the world. Then you will be 'politically correct'.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
Hi, dear friend,
Always so happy when you take time off from your bulldozing activities to drop a wee note to the non-believer!!
Have they got you working on the "wall" yet? Are you out there digging up olive trees and other fruits and vegetables, destroying the water network, and annexing the lands on which Palestinians, even as we speak, are living?
Have they given you any info with respect to what the hell the occupied and the oppressed are supposed to do in their outdoor prison?
Been talking with Sharon the Wicked recently?
Your pal (me) is going to be jumping on to the Board here later today or tomorrow and giving "easy to understand" facts about the monstrosity.
I note Scottie (remember him??) has demanded I cough up proof with respect to the additional 10 plus percent of Palestinian land Israel has destroyed thus far with 'the wall". He doesn't know know how to check out these things for himself, poor lad.
And certainly no doubt you, yourself, who have driven your bulldozer hither and yon over the lands of the occupied and oppressed in the West Bank and Gaza, can come on to the board here and give first hand expertise re same!
Well, guess I must be heading on out to the library and then on to my park bench nearby where I will sit and bemoan the fact that no man will ever look at me, etc., etc.
(Hehehe - bet you can hear that chuckle all the way to Asper Land)!
Keep the faith, my good fellow
Angie (being somewhat wicked here, hehehe)
(Ooops! Or am I permitted to go "hehehe" whilst having a wee chat with a Concerned Zionist?? I mean, what do I know? Aha! I'm sure Mr. Gehrig will advise in due course, but one must not hold one's breath!)
Always so happy when you take time off from your bulldozing activities to drop a wee note to the non-believer!!
Have they got you working on the "wall" yet? Are you out there digging up olive trees and other fruits and vegetables, destroying the water network, and annexing the lands on which Palestinians, even as we speak, are living?
Have they given you any info with respect to what the hell the occupied and the oppressed are supposed to do in their outdoor prison?
Been talking with Sharon the Wicked recently?
Your pal (me) is going to be jumping on to the Board here later today or tomorrow and giving "easy to understand" facts about the monstrosity.
I note Scottie (remember him??) has demanded I cough up proof with respect to the additional 10 plus percent of Palestinian land Israel has destroyed thus far with 'the wall". He doesn't know know how to check out these things for himself, poor lad.
And certainly no doubt you, yourself, who have driven your bulldozer hither and yon over the lands of the occupied and oppressed in the West Bank and Gaza, can come on to the board here and give first hand expertise re same!
Well, guess I must be heading on out to the library and then on to my park bench nearby where I will sit and bemoan the fact that no man will ever look at me, etc., etc.
(Hehehe - bet you can hear that chuckle all the way to Asper Land)!
Keep the faith, my good fellow
Angie (being somewhat wicked here, hehehe)
(Ooops! Or am I permitted to go "hehehe" whilst having a wee chat with a Concerned Zionist?? I mean, what do I know? Aha! I'm sure Mr. Gehrig will advise in due course, but one must not hold one's breath!)
You said "Your pal (me) is going to be jumping on to the Board here later today or tomorrow and giving "easy to understand" facts about the monstrosity. "
I say:
I can't wait for your pap and anti "XXX". fill in the XXX with anything moral, American, Israeli, Zionist, Jewish.
Your twisted logic is not worth even responding to anymore, you're just not fun.... it makes normal people sad to think there is such baaaaaaaaaad logic in our neighbors up north. Not to worry.... you'll grow up someday... go rest on your bench for now...
I say:
I can't wait for your pap and anti "XXX". fill in the XXX with anything moral, American, Israeli, Zionist, Jewish.
Your twisted logic is not worth even responding to anymore, you're just not fun.... it makes normal people sad to think there is such baaaaaaaaaad logic in our neighbors up north. Not to worry.... you'll grow up someday... go rest on your bench for now...
Dear Realist,
I can understand your righteous rage against that villain Angie, who has no respect for our Zionist apartheid campaign against the Palestinians. I assure you, my dear CNN realist, that I do not in any way support this humanity-oriented antizionist human rights crusader. I agree with you that her logic is intolerable, as is every UN, Amnesty International and B'tselem assessment of our oppressive policies against the Palestinian inhabitants of West Bank and Gaza. Clearly her logic is faulty, unlike yours, which has been spoonfed to you by our beloved corporate media giants.
But I ask you not to tarnish all canadians with the same brush, my dear Zionist comrade-in-arms. Although most of these people up North, ( The snow never stops falling and everyone there live in igloos, you know, eh) shamelessly support human rights, we Zionists also live up there, too. Not all of them are antizionists, you know. We Zionist Canadians are a minority, but we support oppressing others just as you do.
So when you come up here in your bulldozers, keep us in mind, OK?
Heil Sharon!
- Aconcerned Zionist
I can understand your righteous rage against that villain Angie, who has no respect for our Zionist apartheid campaign against the Palestinians. I assure you, my dear CNN realist, that I do not in any way support this humanity-oriented antizionist human rights crusader. I agree with you that her logic is intolerable, as is every UN, Amnesty International and B'tselem assessment of our oppressive policies against the Palestinian inhabitants of West Bank and Gaza. Clearly her logic is faulty, unlike yours, which has been spoonfed to you by our beloved corporate media giants.
But I ask you not to tarnish all canadians with the same brush, my dear Zionist comrade-in-arms. Although most of these people up North, ( The snow never stops falling and everyone there live in igloos, you know, eh) shamelessly support human rights, we Zionists also live up there, too. Not all of them are antizionists, you know. We Zionist Canadians are a minority, but we support oppressing others just as you do.
So when you come up here in your bulldozers, keep us in mind, OK?
Heil Sharon!
- Aconcerned Zionist
Well, my lad, that was another unique retort of yours to "Realist". It's imperative that you step up and out on occasion and let those people like "Realist" know that
Glad you reminded him that there are - oh, my GOD! - zionists here in the great white north (and a lot of them are possibly centred in Asper Land). I mean, it's not as though everything we have, and everything we are, exists only in igloos. Hell, we even have bulldozers.
Well, 'till later, that's about all my "twisted logic" will permit me to crank out here at this time. (Hahaha!!!)
Keep the faith, lad
Angie
Glad you reminded him that there are - oh, my GOD! - zionists here in the great white north (and a lot of them are possibly centred in Asper Land). I mean, it's not as though everything we have, and everything we are, exists only in igloos. Hell, we even have bulldozers.
Well, 'till later, that's about all my "twisted logic" will permit me to crank out here at this time. (Hahaha!!!)
Keep the faith, lad
Angie
is equally hatred of the arabs. For arabs are semites. Most remarkably is the antisemitism of the jews, towards the arabs
Dear brian,
You do not understand the Zionist definition of antisemitism. According to the normal definition, antisemitism is a hatred of the semitic peoples. Later, it was assumed that antisemitism is a hatred of only Jews. Then we Zionists came along.
According to the Zionist definition of antisemitism, an antisemite is anyone who opposes our racist policies against the Palestinians, which include displacement, destruction of homes, killing unarmed children, and beating elderly people in their homes. Antisemitic, according to us, is anti-Israeli government and its' sponsors around the world. There are many Jewish antisemites, in fact, everyone who believes that Palestinians deserve human rights is an antisemite. Some antisemites we slander and bash verbally. We shoot others with plastic bullets or run over them with bulldozers, especially if they happen to be unarmed college students who oppose our illegal occupation of Palestinian lands.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
You do not understand the Zionist definition of antisemitism. According to the normal definition, antisemitism is a hatred of the semitic peoples. Later, it was assumed that antisemitism is a hatred of only Jews. Then we Zionists came along.
According to the Zionist definition of antisemitism, an antisemite is anyone who opposes our racist policies against the Palestinians, which include displacement, destruction of homes, killing unarmed children, and beating elderly people in their homes. Antisemitic, according to us, is anti-Israeli government and its' sponsors around the world. There are many Jewish antisemites, in fact, everyone who believes that Palestinians deserve human rights is an antisemite. Some antisemites we slander and bash verbally. We shoot others with plastic bullets or run over them with bulldozers, especially if they happen to be unarmed college students who oppose our illegal occupation of Palestinian lands.
Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist
Well it's come full circle. And to think I initiated this rant with a posting on Finkelstein vs Dershowitz, 2 Jews in discourse yet only one impartially educated hence willing to accept & address the facts. He himself is renounced as anti-Semitic as is the far rightwing idiocy of this entire diatribe to begin with. Anti-Semitic – maybe if we use it often enough it’ll lose its true meaning. Believe it already has!!
Should have known Angie was from up North with her knowledge of the imperative facts, forthright realities the US corporate owned, militarily aligned networks would never dare reveal. Remember "shock and awe", reporting the blizzard of Baghdad as if it were a Spielberg film. How removed is the average American when they allow such intransigence to dominate their living room, their children's playroom. Showtime - the death of a nation becomes viewing fodder. Where’s the popcorn hun?
Norman Finkelstein @ UC Berkeley on 10/8 -- Israel and Palestine: Roots of conflict, Prospects for peace. CounterPunch: Alexander Cockburn et al on 10/19 -- Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitic? -pk
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Sunday 10/19 - PANEL DISCUSSION
7:00 PM · Room 145 · Dwinelle Hall
=========================================
"Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitic?" A Panel on CounterPunch's Hot New Book: "The Politics of Anti-Semitism." Speakers include: Lenni Brenner, Alexander Cockburn, Jeffrey Blankfort, and Scott Hanleman. The Panel is hosted by the Middle East Radio Project.
=========================================
Wednesday 10/8 - NORMAN FINKELSTEIN - 7:00 PM
Booth Auditorium, Boalt Hall, UC Berkeley (near bancroft and piedmont)
=========================================
Part 1 of a 3-day Speaking Tour for Palestine Children's Relief Fund.
The title of Dr. Finkelstein's talk will be: "Israel and Palestine: Roots of conflict, Prospects for peace." The talk will follow a brief presentation and slideshow by Dr. Basil Hanstash (of the PCRF), who has recently returned from the Occupied Territories.
Norman Finkelstein was born in Brooklyn, N.Y., in 1953. He is the son of Maryla Husyt Finkelstein, survivor of the Warsaw Ghetto, Maidanek concentration camp, and Zacharias Finkelstein, survivor of the Warsaw Ghetto, Auschwitz concentration camp. He dedicated his first book to his parents in which he wrote: "May I never forgive or forget what was done to them."
=========================================
Wednesday 10/15 - PALESTINE REPORTBACK
7:30 PM · Room 10 · Evans Hall
=========================================
Co-hosted by SJP and SUSTAIN (Stop U.S. Tax Aid To Israel Now), this event will feature a report back from a SUSTAIN delegation's recent trip to Palestine. The presentation will include a short film screening, individual presentations, and Q&A.
Should have known Angie was from up North with her knowledge of the imperative facts, forthright realities the US corporate owned, militarily aligned networks would never dare reveal. Remember "shock and awe", reporting the blizzard of Baghdad as if it were a Spielberg film. How removed is the average American when they allow such intransigence to dominate their living room, their children's playroom. Showtime - the death of a nation becomes viewing fodder. Where’s the popcorn hun?
Norman Finkelstein @ UC Berkeley on 10/8 -- Israel and Palestine: Roots of conflict, Prospects for peace. CounterPunch: Alexander Cockburn et al on 10/19 -- Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitic? -pk
=========================================
Sunday 10/19 - PANEL DISCUSSION
7:00 PM · Room 145 · Dwinelle Hall
=========================================
"Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitic?" A Panel on CounterPunch's Hot New Book: "The Politics of Anti-Semitism." Speakers include: Lenni Brenner, Alexander Cockburn, Jeffrey Blankfort, and Scott Hanleman. The Panel is hosted by the Middle East Radio Project.
=========================================
Wednesday 10/8 - NORMAN FINKELSTEIN - 7:00 PM
Booth Auditorium, Boalt Hall, UC Berkeley (near bancroft and piedmont)
=========================================
Part 1 of a 3-day Speaking Tour for Palestine Children's Relief Fund.
The title of Dr. Finkelstein's talk will be: "Israel and Palestine: Roots of conflict, Prospects for peace." The talk will follow a brief presentation and slideshow by Dr. Basil Hanstash (of the PCRF), who has recently returned from the Occupied Territories.
Norman Finkelstein was born in Brooklyn, N.Y., in 1953. He is the son of Maryla Husyt Finkelstein, survivor of the Warsaw Ghetto, Maidanek concentration camp, and Zacharias Finkelstein, survivor of the Warsaw Ghetto, Auschwitz concentration camp. He dedicated his first book to his parents in which he wrote: "May I never forgive or forget what was done to them."
=========================================
Wednesday 10/15 - PALESTINE REPORTBACK
7:30 PM · Room 10 · Evans Hall
=========================================
Co-hosted by SJP and SUSTAIN (Stop U.S. Tax Aid To Israel Now), this event will feature a report back from a SUSTAIN delegation's recent trip to Palestine. The presentation will include a short film screening, individual presentations, and Q&A.
Hope you will come back in other threads from henceforth. Like your keen, intelligent mind. Keep up the good fight!
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