JEWS FOR JUSTICE IN PALESTINE Invite You to a High Holy Day Action

Great idea for an action! Where are we marching to?

It's about time American Jews stepped up to the plate to go to bat for the right to return of the Palestinian refugees and demand that the Israeli government become a true democracy. Better late than never I guess.

I find it quite telling and full of contradiction (bordering on hypocrisy) that a supposeldy Jewish organization announces a planned action centered around the High Holy Days (thereby invoking an unimpeachable pedigree), and posts it on Shabbat (when no work--using a computer, which runs on electricity and phone lines, is certainly work--is supposed to be done). What's next? Eating pork on Yom Kippur? Don't get me wrong; I'm all for defending Palestinian rights to self-determination. I hate the Occupation, and I don't even think that the Zionists should be in Israel. But to claim to be Jewish, and claim a connection with Jewish spritual practice while wilfully disregarding one of the most important parts of that practice is too egregious to ignore. Your group must think that Jewishness is some form of genetic identity, unconnected to any form of cultural or spiritual activity. Maybe the members of your group are Jews by political convenience--you're self-identified Jews when you want the credentials to criticize Israel in order to avoid being labeled anti-Semitic, but never identify as Jews when Israel isn't on the agenda.

You said you "don't even think that the Zionists should be in Israel.".

Are you saying the Israeli Jews should move elsewhere and Israel be dismantled and the PA, Hamas, Islamic Jihad be allowed to take over?

"don't even think that the Zionists should be in Israel"

That kinda reminds me of that Chris Rock skit where he denounces people he describes with the N word. When all the Zionists leave Israel perhaps the Jews in Israel will finally be able to live in peace? Jews just cant go anywhere without having those evil Zionists following them around causing trouble. With all the talk on this website one wonders why the Zionists even came to Israel after WWII and didnt go to Argentina with the rest of the Nazis. I mean the last thing the Jews who moved to Israel wanted was a bunch of Zionists following them and causing trouble.

way too funny: "I mean the last thing the Jews who moved to Israel wanted was a bunch of Zionists following them and causing trouble."

Right -- you only thought Joseph Heller was dead; turns out he's writing dialog for Indybay

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Please don't cower and evade my question.
Awaiting your response.

I agree that jews should take up arms against other jews because the arabs that call themselves "paleostinians" deserve our support - i mean after all they only killed THOUSANDS of jews not millions right?

So polish up your jackboots fellow kaps and join the fight.

The real issue is that Palestinians are living in oppressive conditions in the West Bank and Gaza with few rights. The real issue is that Israelis fear that if they give Palestinians a state, there will be more rather than fewer attacks on Israel.

The way to solve this problem (even if you want something more like a single secular state or no state and an anarchist utopia) is to start slowly. No matter what change is needed by Israel, it wont be possible without the Israeli public. No matter what change is needed by the Palestinians it wont be possible without the Palestinian public. Many Palestinians dont just hate the Israeli government, they hate all Israelis (afterall polls show they support assasinations and crackdowns in teh West Bank and Gaza). MANY Israelis dont just hate Palestinian militants they hate all Palestinians (afterall polls show they support the militants) To move things in a positive direction, the hatreds of the publics need to be dealt with.

Most proIsrael types are now calling for Arafats death. The effect would be more hatred against Israel (and the calls have caused more hatred against Israelis). Many proPalestinians activists spend there time building up Zionist conspiracies about 9/11, the US media etc.. The end effect is that many Jews feel like opposition to Israel is just neoNazi hatreds disguised behind new rhetoric.

There isnt much that people outside of Israel can do to help resolve the conflict. A cutoff of US military aid might help but thats unlikely. If the Left around the world had united agianst Sharon instead of against Israel, perhaps Sharion wouldnt have gotten elected in the last election (that wouldnt have solved the problem but things would be much better for everyone). The best thing people can do is to get the focus back onto Palestinians and Israelis and possible solutions. Blame, hatred and name calling have made the situation worse and its a little depressing that many activists have joined on the circle of blame. Israel's treatment of Palestinians has no relation to WWII. Israel's "right to exist" has nothing to do with 1948. Let bygones be bygones and deal with things as they stand today.

>it wont be possible without the Israeli public. No matter what change is needed by the Palestinians it wont be possible without the Palestinian public.

Why do not the decent, honest, righteous, peace lovers within Israeli society start by criticising the hateful, warmongering liars who spam and DOS this site and call us "rabid, whacko anti-Semites" just because we criticise Israel?

"if they want peace, why dont they start first"-white Palestinian activists talking about proIsrael postings

"if they want peace, why dont they start first"-Israeli public talking about Palestinians

"if they want peace, why dont they start first"-Palestinian public talking about the Israeli public

How do we move towards peace when everyone wants the other side to start first?

Israel must end the occupation even though terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians may never stop.

Palestinians must work to curb the rising fundamentalism and hatred towards Jews even though the occupation wont end overnight.

Left wing proPalestinian activists must stop using neoNazi conspiracy theories to demonize Jews, even though right wing proIsrael types probably wont stop spamming the site.

ProIsrael posters who really do want a two state solution must stop demonizing Palestinians since it seems to be pushing many anarchists into the hands of neoNazis.

sorry for the confusion. i was in a fit of pique when i wrote my original post, which was only really directed at the "jews for justice in palestine." what i meant was that the adherents of the versailles "peace" treaty and later the league of nations had no right to carve up the ottoman empire into parcels doled out to the french and british. further, the british had no right to set up a "jewish homeland" scenario in their mandate. and lastly, the zionists (in the jewish agency and the non-affiliated extremists) had no right to use european legalities to usurp the indigenous population from their lands.

israelis certainly have a right to live in some kind of peace--inside the green line. the occupation is a policy carried out by a rogue state. the israeli military should withdraw unilaterally to the green line and remove all jewish settlers when they retreat, leaving the infrastructures intact.

zionism is an expansionist ideology--like ALL other forms of nationalism. it must be abandoned; otherwise there can be no peace. israeli citizens (jewish, muslim, christian, other) should live within the now-internationally recognized borders. palestinians must abandon the expansionist nationalist ideology that posits palestine as one nation covering the same territory as the state of israel. jerusalem should be an interanational city. all palestinians must be allowed the right to return to their former property. the state of israel must abandon the special rights of the ultra-religious. the palestinian authority must curb the clerico-fascist excesses of hamas and islamic jihad and the other exterminationists among their citizens.
i hope that clears things up.

so-called "two state solution" not viable. It would be, at best, a stop gap measure that, at most, prolonged the inevitable.

There's no such thing as a temporary solution.

Thanks for addressing my question in some manner, however vague it was.
Let me just inform you the Israelis will never agree to the supposed Palestinian right of return as it would be tantamount to making most Israeli Jew pack and move to other countries.

it's cool how you know how most israelis would feel and think, "curious." that must make you really popular at parties. if israelis reject the palestianian right of return, then they should abandon all pretense to a sense of justice and fairness. the right of automatic citizenship to any jew anywhere (and the considerable ambiguity in the case of many of the recent immigrants from russia) is even more absurd.

as for the two-state solution being temporary, maybe. what are you suggesting "anti-Zionist"? making israel/palestine judenrein?

Most Israelis HAVE ALREADY rejected the supposed palestianian right of return. This rejection solidifies their fairness and sense of justice .

Of course not. People would immediately condemn it as lumping all Muslims together as terrorists. Yet when anti-zionists consistently hold rallies on Jewish holy days it's acceptable, including the upcoming rally on Rosh Hashana. This is the height of hypocracy and anti-semitism. Even by Jews for...

Have your rally- I'll be in synagogue, or anywhere but your event. Regardless of one's postion on Palestinians, the right to be Jewish and free of harassment on your most holy days should be sacrosanct. But of course that's the agenda of a number of the most prolific posters to indymedia, to make Judaism synonomous with anything bad. Scratch their surface and you'll find more than a few David Dukes. Thankfully, this isn't the position of the majority, just the minority that has the time and inclination to spread their hateful message.

well "peace" you have forgotten the cardinal rule of new leftists: if you can blame a "white" group, all bets are off. since jews have mostly been considered "white" since the end of wwii, we are fair game for the cretins on the left (not to mention the cretins on the right who have always hated us without apology or guilt--it's only the left who are politically motivated by guilt). there are mid-term exams at universities scheduled for the high holy days (when the calendars overlap), there are finals scheduled for saturdays, there are non-verbal and unwritten quotas, there is outright jew-bashing and jew-hatred posing as anti-zionism. there are protests scheduled for saturdays or jewish holidays. but you have also forgotten that this weekend's anti-occupation of iraq demo is on the second day of rosh hashanah; the rabbis instituted the second days of major holidays outside the land of israel based on unreliable calendrical timetables. that excuse is certainly not relevant today, and i for one, do not feel bound by a useless tradition. so i'll be out there on sunday, expressing by disgust at u.s. foreign policy, and probably getting into heated arguments with jew-haters posing as israel-criticizers--you know, the ones who think that the israelis control thepolicies of the u.s. state department. (and you thought it was only the right-wing nuts who thought that.)

"the right of automatic citizenship to any jew anywhere (and the considerable ambiguity in the case of many of the recent immigrants from russia) is even more absurd. "

Its absurd and racist but its no different from immigration policies in most European countries. If you want to immigrate to Greece its easier if you are ethnically Greek, same for Italy, Germany etc... Its also worth noting that a good percentage of the Russians immigrating to Israel dont see it as a final destination (its just a step closer to immigrating to the UK or US which being a richer countries are the more desired goal)

If you look at actual numbers of people who want to immigrate, European immigration policies are far worse than Israel. Compare the number of people trying to illegally immigrate to France, Gremany or the UK to the number trying to illegally immigrate to Israel and its hard to say which country is acting the most racist. In many European countries the populations are dropping and the countries want more young people and are encouraging more children at the same time that the publics are growing more and more racist against immigrants from the Middle East and North Africa (if there is worry about a population drop why not allow more people in?).

Israel needs to change it policies as do Europe and the US. While there are many Palestinians who want to return to a new Palestinian state, my guess is that if Israel opened its borders to all Palestinians who wanted to return at the same time that the US, UK or Germany opened their borders to any Palestinians who wanted to immigrate, most would end up choosing the US, German or the UK (perhaps after first returning to Israel and realizing it wasnt all that).

Perhaps this is a real solution to the conflict. If you mix "right of return" to Israel with EU and US policies allowing any Palestinian who want to to immigrate to the EU or US. Israel wouldnt be so worried about getting overrun and Palestinians would have even more of a choice than with a "right of return" law alone.

But I do think most Palestinians would want to return to their ancestral homeland of Palestine-Israel. But yes, I believe they should, like Jews, also have other options. And it's the LEAST the U.S. and also Britian could do to offer Palestinian refugees citizenship, considering all the ways the U.S. especially and Britain have been complicit in the Israeli persecution of the non-Jewish indigenous Palestinian people!

Windy Wendy: "But I do think most Palestinians would want to return to their ancestral homeland of Palestine-Israel."

Yet when polled by a Palestinian sociologist about how many would actually make the move, only about ten percent said they would. And when that Palestinian researcher held a press conference to discuss his findings, the boys from Fatah came in and broke all the furniture.

From the BBC: "Only a small minority of Palestinian refugees would seek to return to live in Israel if allowed under a peace agreement, a controversial survey suggests. Eminent Palestinian political scientist Dr Kahil Shikaki was pushed, shoved and pelted with eggs as he released details of the research by the Palestinian Centre for Policy and Survey Research. Its poll found only 10% of respondents in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Jordan and Lebanon would wish to rebuild their homes under Israeli rule - a finding challenging existing Israeli and Palestinian perceptions. "

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Palestinians are not the only refugees arising out of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Let us not forget the nearly one million Jews evicted by Arab governments from their homes in nine Arab countries at the urging of the Palestinian political leadership, which was collaborating with Nazi Germany.

We, the members of Jews Indigenous to the Middle East and North Africa, will not let the world forget our stories of dispossession and expulsion.

Go to JIMENA"s web site, especially to the FAQ page and learn more about this issue.

We demand justice!

So was the Zionist political leadership.

See:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/04/120352_comment.php#120573

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/05/127448_comment.php#127704

Palestinian Arab leader Haj Amin el Husseyni stated the following in an Arabic language broadcast over Nazi Radio Berlin:

"National Socialist Germany knows the Jews well and has decided to find a final solution for the Jewish danger which will end the evil in the world. The Arabs especially and Muslims in general are obliged to make this their goal, from which they will not stray and which they must reach with all their powers: it is the expulsion of all Jews from Arab and Muslim lands.” (Text of Hajj Amin al-Hussayni’s speech of 2 November, 1943, National Archives, Washington, D.C. T60/2576066-9)

Hence, the founder of the Palestinian national movement knew about and supported the Holocaust.

In a meeting between Hitler and Husseini, hitler promised the Palestinian leader:

"(the) Führer would offer the Arab world his personal assurance that the hour of liberation had struck. Thereafter, Germany's only remaining objective in the region would be limited to the annihilation of the Jews living under British protection in Arab lands." (From notes taken by Dr. Paul Otto Schmidt as quoted in Gerald Fleming's Hitler and the Final Solution, p. 101-104, University of California Press (1988). Also Geheime Reichssache 57 a/41, Records Dept. Foreign and Commonwealth Office Pa/2)

Haj Amin el Husseini had a working relationship with Himmler, Eichmann and even visited Auschwitz. All of this is in the historical record in captured German documents.

He was a high level stooge for Nazi Germany, he injected the worst kind of anti-Semitic poison into Palestinian politics, which is still active today particularly in the ideology of Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

Whatever "collaboration" between the Zionist movement and Nazi Germany existed took place in the context of trying to rescue Jews from the imminent Holocaust, and there can be no comparison. Haj Amin el Husseini knew about the genocide program of the Nazis against the Jews, and he approved of it (in the quotes above) and even wanted it extended to the Jews living in Muslim countries.

And, you failed to address the fact of nearly one million Jews being evicted from Arab countries, at the urging of Haj Amin while he was at the service of Nazi Germany.

His nephew, Jamal el Husseini and the Egyptian and Iraqi delegates to the UN made overt and violent threats against the Jews of Arab lands, and before there was a single Palestinian refugee, before the war of 1948 started, massacres and expulsions of Jews in the Arab world began.

Jamal el Husseini said at the UN:

"It must be remembered that there are as many Jews in the Arab world as there are in Palestine whose positions... will become very precarious. Governments in general have always been unable to prevent mob excitement and violence." (United Nations, Official Records of the Second Session of the General Assembly Ad Hoc Committee on the Palestinian Question, Summary Records of Meetings, September 25, 1947, Lake Success, New York)

But, when it comes to rights for Jews, justice for Jews, and the right of the Jewish people to national self-determination, the Left is often blind, dumb and deaf.

Palestinians can collaborate openly with the racist fascist regime of Nazi Germany, but are eagerly defended for doing so by many self-proclaimed "progressives."

It only goes to show that anti-Semitism is indeed the socialism of fools.

There are probably alot of white people in lets say peru chille argentina etc who would like to return to their ancestoral home of "the european union" (because it is richer). I dont think anyone is suggesting we take all of them and dump them back there.

Zionists did collaborate openly with the racist fascist regime of Nazi Germany, but their supporters refuse to address the fact.

Nazism and Zionism are two sides of the same coin. They are both ethnic based, aggressive, expansionist militarisms. The only real differences are in size and in the name of the ethnic group. Oytside of that, they're the same.

well mister buff, using those criteria, ALL nationalist movements do the exact same things, regardless of whether or not their have actually succeeded in gaining political control over a patch of territory. name even one nationalist movement that didn't define its "nation" without ethnic criteria, without some form of expansionism, without a militarized ideology. you will not be able to; that's the real history. let's not play favorites (or anti-favorites) with particular forms of nationalism.

as for JIMENA, the issue of the expelled mizrahim and sepharadim is important to address, but is only recently being put on the political agenda in order to confuse and conflate the issues of population transfers and property expropriation. the rights of palestinians to return to their former homes is a separate issue from the attempts of oriental/arab jews to try to recover their stolen property. there just aren't many jews who would choose to return to, say, damascus or baghdad. this attempt to create some form of moral equivalence is a distraction. i say this speaking as a sepharadi jew by the way. the issue of expropriated jewish property is between those jews (and their descendants) and the arab governments that expelled them; the palestinian right of return is between the israeli government and the palestinians. one should not be used to extort benefits from the other.

You're right. All the more reason to oppose nationalism in all its forms.

"the palestinian right of return is between the israeli government and the palestinians. one should not be used to extort benefits from the other. "

Wrong. The first Arab leaders to advocate and agitate for the expulsion of the Mizrahi Jews was the Palestinian national leadership. The quote from Haj Amin el Husseini in my earlier posting calling for Jews to be expelled was in 1943, fully 5 years before there was a single Palestinian refugee. The Palestinian delegate to the UN called for violence against the Mizrahi Jews in November 1947 (see my earlier posting), once again before there was asingle Palestinian refugee.

Why don't you address these facts?

There was indeed a population exchange, the Mizrahi Jews were expelled, their property confiscated, their citizenships revoked, all in the name of the Palestinian cause and on behalf of the Palestinians, with Palestinian approval, urging and backing.

The difference is the Jews were resettled, mostly in Israel while the Palestinians were herded into refugee camps and forced to stay there by Arab regimes, except for Jordan which resettled them and gave them Jordanian citizenship.

It is wrong to assert that the Palestinians have no moral responsibility in this issue. They do. To advocate otherwise is to obfuscate and distort the reality.

And since you claim to be a Sephardi Jew (does that mean you are Mizrahi or Sephardi? Do you know the difference?) HARAM ALEYK! shame on you! for making excuses for your people's oppressors, for whitewashing the chauvinism and racism of the Arab nationalist movement.

"They do it, too," is not an excuse.

not only do i know the difference between mizrahim and sepharadim, i know why it exists. i am sepharadi. what difference does it make to you? it means little to me. HARAM ALAY? how have i made any excuses for my people's oppressors? i do not absolve the arab political leaders for expelling my brothers and sisters, stealing their property and assets, or for wanting to ignore those policies. similarly i do not absolve the israeli political leaders for expelling my cousins, stealing their property and assets, or for wanting to ignore those policies. the israeli government must take responsibility for palestinian suffering, and the governments of egypt, syria, iraq, etc. must take responsibility for jewish suffering. but the difference is this: one should not be contingent on the other. the israelis must deal with the palestinian right of return whether or not the arab governments deal with the return/compensation of jewish property. the endless cycle of attack and counter-attack must end. the endless rhetorical battle must end. as a jew, who cares deeply about the health and safety of my all my jewish brothers and sisters (whether in israel or not), i call on the political leadership in israel to make unilateral good faith steps to ending this horrible conflict. the commandment to pursue justice demands taking the moral high ground, regardless of the exigencies of realpolitik.

gehrig wants to sell the idea that only 10% of Palestinians who had their homes stolen by the Israelis do not want to return.

He gives us a quote from a BBC report that says a pollster found that “only 10% of respondents in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Jordan and Lebanon would wish to rebuild their homes under Israeli rule - a finding challenging existing Israeli and Palestinian perceptions."

Sure. It’s amazing what can be done with selective numbers and editing. Gehrig leaves out the reason for the low number. This is an actual quote from the same report. “...found only 10% of respondents in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Jordan and Lebanon would wish to rebuild their homes under Israeli rule - a finding challenging existing Israeli and Palestinian perceptions.”

Wow. It’s surprising to me that even 10% would want to return ‘under Israeli rule.’ I wonder what percent would want to return 'under Pa'estinian rule.'

Anyone pollster asking such a dumb and dishonest questions deserves to be pelted with eggs - those who peddled this progaganda deserve the same.

Peace.

gherig is right. The majority of palestinians want the occuatation to end and want to control things themselves. The majority of palestinians don't want to move into israel and sit around being homeless. But people who want israel destroyed are the ones who always push the "right of return" for one side (while never mentioning "right of return" for the other).

gherig is right. The majority of palestinians want the occuatation to end and want to control things themselves. The majority of palestinians don't want to move into israel and sit around being homeless. But people who want israel destroyed are the ones who always push the "right of return" for one side (while never mentioning "right of return" for the other).

Unfortunately, the majority of palestinians also appear to believe that blowing up israeli buses will somehow help them achieve their goal, whereas the longer they employ that method of negotiation, the longer it'll take them to get a state, and the less land they'll be offered to create one on.

anarchist
" All the more reason to oppose nationalism in all its forms."

Some people seem to think the way to react to israeli nationalism is to create palistinian nationalism.. (I guess its the recreational drugs).
A better plan is to discourage palistinian nationalism AND israeli nationalism and Arab nationalism. If you can do that then the need for individual parties to be nationalistic is reduced.
If a palistinian says "palestine is better than israel and it should control these areas of israel" then that is just as much nationalism as the israelis saying the same about palestine. The hamas plo or other parties are not anarchists (even if they look like them) but just a second type of nationalist so they are the worst people for anarchists to support. because to support them would be to suggest that it is better for greater palestine to have 2 nationalistic identities as opposed to one or none.
It seems american/european anarcists and left leaning people have caused nationalism to be created by accident in the process of trying to discourage it.

the moral onus is on the oppressor nation to renounce nationalism first.

i think nationalism is a political and strategic dead-end (look at Arab nationalism), but to repudiate Palestinean nationalism--as you do, scottie--without more forcefully repudiating the nationalism of the zionists is kinda lame.

all stand-up people i think would agree.

>>"The way to solve this problem (even if you want something more like a single secular state or no state and an anarchist utopia) is to start slowly."

Starting "slowly" is for those who believe the occupation is really not that bad (usually those who think Israelis are more important than Palestinians who are the main victims of this conflict contrary to popular belief).


>>"No matter what change is needed by Israel, it wont be possible without the Israeli public."

That's not true. If you raise the consciousness of people by showing them what Israelis are doing to Palestinians, the American public would stop supporting it very quickly. The problem is the media hides this. For example, an analysis of the San Francisco Chronicle revealed that in the six month period during the beginning of this second intifada, 93 Palestinian children were killed and 4 Israeli children were killed. During that six month period, SF Chronicle ran 6 stories on the Israeli children (repeating the deaths over and over at times when there were none) and 5 stories on the Palestinian children, thus giving a false sense of symmetry.

(see http://www.ifamericansknew.org/chron/chron_report.html)


>>"To move things in a positive direction, the hatreds of the publics need to be dealt with."

Hatred is terrible but only a symptom. You don't deal with symptoms, you deal with causes.


>>"There isnt much that people outside of Israel can do to help resolve the conflict."

Absolutely false. We Americans pay for Israel's ability to maintain the occupation and provide it diplomatic cover.

>>"A cutoff of US military aid might help but thats unlikely."

How do you know that would be unlikely. Anyway, the solution should also involve a boycott and sanctions till Israel adheres to UN Resolutions. This is totally trivial compared to what was done (and continuing to occur) to Iraq.


>>"If the Left around the world had united agianst Sharon INSTEAD OF AGAINST ISRAEL [emphasis added], perhaps Sharion wouldnt have gotten elected in the last election (that wouldnt have solved the problem but things would be much better for everyone)."

I think we need to stand AGAINST Israel not WITH it. Just like we stood AGAINST former Apartheid South Africa not WITH it.

>>"Israel's "right to exist" has nothing to do with 1948."

Israel should not have a right to exist as an exclusionary Jewish state. At the very least, Palestinians within its borders must be treated as equals. Legalized discrimination should not be acceptable in this day and age.

As for 1948, I'm for knowing the truth about what happened then as far as that can be discerned. The problem is all we know are what Israel's propagandists want us to know. That is one of the reasons (along with the false idea that Israel has always been attacked) which leads average Americans to support Israel, believing that it has been under constant attack.

If you want to know what I mean, pick up a copy of Noam Chomsky's "Fateful Triangle."

"the commandment to pursue justice demands taking the moral high ground, regardless of the exigencies of realpolitik."

I agree Jews and the Jewish state ought to live by a higher standard imposed on ourselves, and being the stronger party in the conflict with the Palestinians, Israel can take some unilateral steps to demonstrate sincerity.

At the same, non-Jews have no right imposing a higher moral standard on Jews. The non-Jewish world had better clean up its own backyard before criticizing the mess in ours. For non-Jews to obsessively criticize Jews while ignoring th ehorrific excesses in such lands as Saudi Arabia, Libya, Syria, North Korea, Iran, etc. is moral hypocrisy, double-standard and ultimately anti-Jewish.


SELF-DEFENSE IS A MORAL IMPERATIVE
The mass murder of Israelis by suicide bombers sent by truly fascistic organizations (Hamas, Jihad Islami, Al Aqsa Brigades) requires self-defense (within limits).

Morality is not one-dimensional, and self-defense is a moral imperative as well. If you are at all knowledgeable about Judaism, then surely you know about the DIN RODEF (law of the pursuer) which requires a vigorous self-defense against those who want to kill you or your family.

Morality is about both making peace, and defending oneself against attack. It is immoral to leave yourself open to attack.

A false peace in which one's security is compromised, in which a country's citizens are routinely targeted for slaughter, is in fact no peace and a moral failure for the government which is required to protect its citizens.

So, before standing on your soap box preaching morality, bear in mind that morality is multi-layered, complex and never simple (nor the simplistic model that you presented).

How is placing Israeli women and children civilian settlers in the Occupied Territories "self defense?"

It sounds like a land grab to me...

There are 400,000 settlers in the Occupied Territories now and they control 58% of what remains of the 22% of Palestinian lands according to Jeff Halper in a recent interview.

Too bad so many Zionists are so self-deluded. It's really some kind of collective mental illness. Please do us all a favor and find a cure.

and be sure to attend the political science class where you'll learn that the territories in question are disputed territories, hence Israeli Jews and other Jews moving into them can't be considered "land grabbing" unless they forcefully evict Arabs from their homes - something that has seldom happened if at all.

You take Jeff Halper's word at face value but if I were you I would be more cautious and try to corroborate that figure. It seems inflated.

... "unless they forecefully evict Arabs from their homes - something that has seldom happened if at all".

Hell, no. It is so much easier to bring on the bulldozer and demolish house after house after house . . .

The last I heard, which was about a year ago, Israeli settlers in the Occupied Territories controlled 45% of the land there (i.e. they controlled 45% of the 22% of remaining Palestinian land of the West Bank and Gaza). I don't know how much they control today, but according to Israeli anthropologist Jeff Halper, Sharon is trying to get that number up to 58%

Halper: "Well, Sharon is accused of not having a political plan, and just blindly hitting out against the ‘infrastructure of terror,’ as they call it. But I think there is a very definite political plan - apartheid. Sharon calls this plan cantonization: a Palestinian state on about 42% of the West Bank in three or four islands, all controlled and surrounded by Israel. The plan involves making the Palestinians submit by getting a weak Palestinian leadership that will sign off on this Bantustan, this cantonization. It involves getting rid of the Palestinian middle class that would oppose it by what we call ‘quiet transfer’ - forcing them out of the country with bad housing, bad education and no economic life, in order to create a very malleable Palestinian mass that would then simply passively accept a Bantustan."
-Jeff Halper
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/09/1647863.php

And it is occupied land, not "disputed territories," unless you believe other people's property just somehow naturally belongs to you.

It was not that long ago when the US and Israel began using the word "disputed" with respect to the Occupied Territories.

In fact, remember how Donald Rumsfled sneeringly referred to them as "the so-called occupied territories" and "the so-called settlements" in August 2002?

That remark prompted Ran HaCohen, in "A Letter from Israel", 4 September 2002, to write:

"If Rumsfeld's conception is true and the occupied territories are not occupied, then Israel is one of the worst racist dictatorships of modern times, where millions of inhabitants are held without nationality and without any political rights for generations".

It's just another excuse for Israel to continue its theft of Palestinian lands, hoping if they repeat "disputed" often enough, the international community will adopt it. Well, there has been no declaration by the world at large that these territories have gone from being "occupied" to being "disputed".

All of us with more than half a brain is aware of what is really happening with respect to the so-called Palestinian state. It's the biggest farce in the Mid east right now.

Every single thing Israel has done is proof of its real plan - to ensure that the peoples of the Occupied Territories will, as you say, be forced to move or live in continued impovishment in small areas surrounded by Israel. It has been the dream of Sharon, and it continues to be his dream. Remember his comment on Christmas Day of 2002 wherein he stated that he would support "a totally unarmed Palestinian state with greatly reduced borders"? And that's what he's doing.

And when Palestinians say no way, they are accused of not wanting "peace". Some peace.

Uri Avnery's articles clearly show what Israel and Sharon are all about, and if anyone knows Sharon it is Uri Avnery.

To whomever wrote the following: "How is placing Israeli women and children civilian settlers in the Occupied Territories "self defense?" "

Most of the terror attacks by Hamas and Islamic Jihad have taken place in Israel proper, in Tel Aviv, west Jerusalem, Haifa, Afula, Netanya, etc. All the targets were civilians. Taking actions to stop such criminal attacks on civilians is self-defense.

Jews will never again go like sheep to the slaughter.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

--"Taking actions to stop such criminal attacks on civilians is self-defense."

You didn't answer the question. How is placing settlers in the Occupied Territories self-defense?

It sounds like a land grab (aka expansionism) to me.

"You didn't answer the question. How is placing settlers in the Occupied Territories self-defense?"

I never said putting settlers in the occupied territories is self-defense. You erected a straw man and then knocked it down.

Your question implies that putting settlers in the occupied territories is a legitimate reason for commiting mass murder against Israelis anywhere, so that is why I answered that Tel Aviv is not in the occupied territories, but in Israel.

But, even attacking civilian settlers is also wrong, both morally and tactically, as all that does is create sympathy for the settlers in the Israeli public where that sympathy was once either weak or non-existant.

Guerrilla warfare against armed soldiers is one thing; terrorist attacks aimed primarily at civilians is heinous.

Hope that clarifies.

Ok. So you admit the settlements are not self-defense.

Than can we agree the Israelis are the aggressors since they are the ones stealing the original inhabitants' homes which they built and also their land and water.

And despite your dishonesty, far, FAR more Palestinian civilians (including young children) have been killed by Israelis than the other way around. And this is all because of Israel's insatiable lust for more land -- this is and has always been the crux of the conflict AND its driving force, without which, there would be no conflict and no suffering on either side.

So, if the settlements are not self-defense, than they are simply land grabs and expansionism. The Israelis are the aggressors in this conflict and always have been despite the media's distortions to make it look like it's the other way around.

Palestinians have been suffering for 55 years under the Israeli jack boot and it's long past time for us here in the US to stop paying for it (without our tax money, Israelis could not do any of this).

And despite besee

Israelis claim they are the victims all the while stealing what little the Palestinians have left.

I find it incredulous how the aggressors in this conflict (those who do most of the killing, maiming, and injuring of civilians, in order to steal that other people's homes, land and water) turn around and cry about how THEY not their victims are the real victims.

I remember white South Africans claiming that everyone around them wanted to slaughter them, but I don't think they went as far as pro-Israelis in claiming that they were the real victims -- or if they did, mercifully, no one took them seriously.

Anyway, I think the solution for this conflict is to raise awareness of the reality the Palestinians are and have been living under for decades. And this in turn will be possible only if the public begins to understand that they've been lied to all their lives about this conflict by the media, Hollywood, and even high school and college textbooks (which rely on media accounts).

Once this is done, the aid will end if this is really a democracy and the world community would be free to place sanctions on Israel till it obeyed all the UN resolutions it has been allowed to snub its nose at and it would be forced negotiate in good faith with its neighbors -- or better yet, it would be forced to comply with international law.

It's not at all easy, but it has to be done if justice is ever to prevail in this case.

--"terrorist attacks aimed primarily at civilians is heinous."

I couldn't agree more. The problem is Israel is far more guilty of this. The media makes it look like its the other way around (mostly by ignoring the suffering/killings of Arab civilians), but Israel has targetted and killed far more civilians.

And this is not just accidental. Not all Israeli soldiers are racist or hateful enough to kill for no reason, but there are some (many?) who do just that. This usually goes unreported when a Palestinian child is thus killed or it is justified by the media with the lie that he/she was "caught in a crossfire."

One need only look at Iain Hook or Tom Hurndall or Rachel Corrie or this (boy shot to death by soldier in front of ISM witnesses):
http://www.squall.co.uk/squall.cfm?sq=2002092601&ct=9

American born Palestinian woman with US citizenship shot to death by Israeli soldier:
http://www.commondreams.org/news2002/0403-01.htm

There are plenty of other examples.

Another technique used to minimize Arab deaths is the reliance on vicious stereotypes of Arabs, so when they are killed everyone just says "oh well" with the image of jittering, shaking "Arab terrorists" floating around in their heads.

Take a look at this video.

It shows a few of the over 100 civilians killed in Qana, Lebanon in 1996 from Israeli (actually US) weapons. All the people you see in this video were killed. Do they look like terrorists to you?
VIDEO:
http://www.indybay.org/uploads/qana_victims.mpg

And this is only one of the many bombings of Lebanon which left tens of thousands dead from 1978 to 2000.

And before you say, "what did they do to deserve this?" check out this article by Robert Fisk which explains how this was Israel's revenge for Israeli soldiers killed *ON LEBANESE TERRITORY* for planting mines which killed a Lebanese teenager earlier:
http://www.robert-fisk.com/articles14.htm
http://www.robert-fisk.com/articles18.htm

my dear ana yahud, finally we're getting somewhere now that we're both a bit calmer. you and i agree on more than you might think. i fully support the right of self-defense (pursuant to din rodef and plenty of other considerations outside of judaism). i despise the racist clerical fascists of jihad and hamas who target children ("nits make lice" as a famous indian killer once said). but i also hate the israeli policy makers who have created a siege mentality for israeli culture, making soldiers more likely to kill children who throw stones at them--surely that can't qualify as self-defence.

i have no patience for sanctimonious critics of the state of israel who wilfully ignore all the other states in the world that engage in acts of genocide (and let's be clear that demolishing homes, using targetted killings, collective punishments, uprooting orchards, cutting off water, etc. are all acts of genocide). they clearly can't stand the thought of jews being in control of a state--let alone their own destiny. that's part of the anti-semitism masquerading as anti-zionism. so rachel corrie gets worldwide attention for being run over by a bulldozer (she was too slow), while the non-blond, non-american, non-christian children who get murdered while eating pizza or going to school are ignored. where's the morality there?

i don't apply double standards to politicians. and i try to remove morality from the issues; morals are supposed to be absolutes and universals, and almost nobody can live up to that. i am more pragmatic than that. the reason the israelis should unilaterally withdraw into the green line is because of world public opinion, not morality. taking the high moral ground is a practical necessity, not some overarching imperative derived from divine sources. if we want peace and justice, we must agitate for removing the "oppressor" label from israelis by taking away their opportunities to oppress palestinians. the easiest way to accomplish that isfor all israelis to withdraw from the territories, allowing palestinians the self-determination they need and deserve as human beings. then the onus for not pursuing peace is on the palestinians, not the israelis.
shanah tovah u'metukah

--"they clearly can't stand the thought of jews being in control of a state--let alone their own destiny. that's part of the anti-semitism masquerading as anti-zionism."

I have nothing against a Jewish state per se. What I'm against are the injustices done to the Palestinians to get it. If a Jewish state were created in a piece of Bavaria as punishment for the Holocaust, I could understand that.

--"so rachel corrie gets worldwide attention for being run over by a bulldozer (she was too slow), while the non-blond, non-american, non-christian children who get murdered while eating pizza or going to school are ignored. where's the morality there?"

Ignored by the media? I certainly feel terrible for the young Jewish children who have been killed in this conflict (101 killed in the last three years). I also feel terrible for the far more deaths of Palestinian children (465 deaths in the past three years).
source:
http://www.whowillsavethechildren.com/remember2000.html

Jewish children killed certainly are not ignored by the media. In fact, most mainstream media use it as a way to demonize Palestinians by repeatedly filing stories on the same Israeli children killed. For example, in the six month period of the first intifada, 93 Palestinian children were killed and 4 Israeli children were killed.

If you read the San Francisco Chronicle, you would have read 6 stories on the 4 Israeli children killed (repeating the same deaths when there were no Israeli deaths to speak of) and only 5 stories on the 93 Palestinian children killed.
source:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/chron/chron_report.html

That's why most people here think Israelis are the main victims when it is really the other way around.

Also, people in this country should be concerned about this conflict because we give more of our tax money to Israel to enable it to do the things it does than to any other country in the world ($12 Billion this year alone, $3 billion in the usual aid + $9 billion in loan guarantees which never have to be repaid so this is a gift + other unofficially acknowledged aid).

In any case, how do you know that people who oppose Israel's oppression of the Palestinians don't care about other issues as well. I care equally about what we're doing to Iraqis (the genocidal sanctions and bombings) and I recognize that some US troops have gunned down Iraqi civilians in the streets due to their racist hatred of Arabs.

I'm also against our former support of Indonesia's invasion of East Timor as well as our support of Latin American elites. But again, (except for Iraq) we are far more complicit in the actions of the Israeli government because we pay for it. And raising consciousness about this is not anti-Semitic. It's disappointing that this term has been bandied about so cavalierly.

What I find incredulous though is how pro-Israelis will claim to be victims of anti-Semitism instead of realizing that people genuinely really care about Palestinians.

"the moral onus is on the oppressor nation to renounce nationalism first."

If you say that you are subverting your dislike of nationalism to your preference to the underdog.
In the end you will at best create another nationalism to replace your old nationalism. If your revolutionaries were not nationalistic at least you would be consistant.
I think supporting the underdog may seem like fun but it is just an endless circle of trouble unless it is based on somthing more important.

"i think nationalism is a political and strategic dead-end (look at Arab nationalism), but to repudiate Palestinian nationalism--as you do, scottie--without more forcefully repudiating the nationalism of the zionists is kinda lame."

- OK I forcefully repudiate israeli nationalism.. happy?
but not "more" forcefully than I might oppose any other nationalism. Why would I do that unless I hated israelis for some obscure reason.
What I oppose "more forcefully" as said before is selling nationalism to the underdogs who at first do not posess it (for example the palistinians who were sold the idea that they are a nation).
It will always in any group be possible to sell nationalism to a subsection of that group and encourage them to fight another subsection that might by some arbitrary measure be "more powerful". And eventually split the country into two parts.
But why on earth would you want to do that?

"We, who were taught to love Israel and contribute to the Zionist enterprise, refuse to take part in attacks on civilian population centers," the pilots wrote in a letter to Halutz.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=586&ncid=586&e=4&u=/nm/20030925/wl_nm/mideast_pilots_dc

--"For example, in the six month period of the first intifada, 93 Palestinian children were killed and 4 Israeli children were killed."

That should read:
"For example, in the FIRST six month period of the SECOND intifada, 93 Palestinian children were killed and 4 Israeli children were killed."

Why in the world would someone come on this Board and accuse the media of giving world-wide attention to the highly suspicious death of Rachel Corrie?. The first time I heard of same was here on the Board. That's how much attention it got in the North American media, and I didn't hear anything on BBC World (although I might well have missed it). I did note it later being mentioned in the Toronto Star when a columnist wondered why it didn't get any media attention in the US.

Had Ms. Corrie, however, been run over by a Palestinian-driven bulldozer (if the impoverished people have such a thing), the media would be mounting the biggest hue and cry one ever heard, and no doubt the driver would be tossed in prison. We would never hear the end of it.

The same thing happens when an Israeli (be it man, woman or child) is killed in a suicide bombing. It is MAJOR headlines certainly in the States, and oftimes in the UK. In Canada, while it is certainly mentioned, it is not necessarily the lead story. Blessedly CBC News is capable of putting news items in their proper place. As I keep saying this is not the ONLY CONFLICT. The world is full of them, and they all deserve our attention..

Unfortunately, and tragically, the same standard of media coverage does not apply to Palestinain deaths. Almost daily a Palestinian civilian, be it man, woman, or child (and sometimes all three) are dead, their homes demolished, curfews, checkpoints, it never stops. And apart from casual mention, often in such a way as to imply that the Palestinians were "caught in the crossfire" (that's a typical one) or some other asisine explanation there's very little info given us.

Don't think for a bloody moment that a dead israeli is more important than a dead Palestinian. Nor is a dead Palestinian any more important than a dead Israeli. Both are human beings. Both are dead. One is no more dead than the other. It should not be happening to either. Nobody should be dying here. No one!

It's this kind of double standard that infuriates those of us who want to see a just and dignified peace in this conflict. Israel's seige mentality has long outlived its usefulness. It is not Israel who is the occupied and the oppressed here. It's embarrassing, and it has to be an insult to the people of Israel to constantly have themselves portrayed as "victims" by people who should know better.

If this "conflict" must be the "big television news event", then let's have it even-handed. Treat both parties the same. Give both parties the news coverage warranted in either case. If one party is interviewed, interview the other party for the same news item. Dignify the deaths of both peoples with the decency and respect they both deserve. I don't think that's asking too much.

"Why in the world would someone come on this Board and accuse the media of giving world-wide attention to the highly suspicious death of Rachel Corrie?"

I dont think whoever posted that actually believed that or would even argue that in a live argument. On the internet discussions degenerate fast because people love to use anonymity to post things like this just to get a reaction (and who knows what the actual views of the poster are). You can still ask how such sick poeple can exist to post such things but really every discussion board on the internet that isnt heavilly moderated does degenerate. MSN just shut down its chat rooms because it couldnt cope....

I don't much care what people come on this board and say. I have a right, as does anyone else, ensuring that we stay within the guidelines set out here, to comment on a post that is written by whoever just as whoever can, and does, comment on something I say. You just did. This is why it's called a discussion board. If that's all you could take from my post above, you haven't learned anything.

Is this where we pretend that nice, educated israeli people and crazed lunatic hamas members are both "worth" the same on this planet?

I'll hang with the israelis. You can hang with hamas.

People are created equal. There are good and bad people. Whether they are Hamas members, Israeli members, or any other peoples, they are all human, and when they die, they are dead, one no less dead than the other.

Sadly, we know that there is a certain segment out there that likes to look upon Palestinians (and perhaps the entire Arab community) as "sub human"., amongst other things. We have all heard that before. I can only assume from the post above that the writer is part of this unfortunate segment of society.

Crazed, lunatic, homicidal, racist Likudniks are the problem.

Jews for justice for Palestinians stated in today's jewish chronicle that they would not be taking part in tomorrow's march in london as it is rosh hashanah, they described the timing of the march as "insensitive".

What an amazing coincidence that they just happened to schedule their march on one of the few days a year that happen to be a Jewish holiday with all-day services. Just a coincidence, I'm sure.

@%<

screw palestinians
all they want is for the jews to give back Israel
and this will never be done
israel is a jewish nation
and they true invaders are the people from all over the arab nationn invading jewish land and calling themselves palestinians!
and they piont their fingers at the jews like they are the bad guys.
this would be the same thing as europians invading the usa and saying that this is the land of their ancestors and the proof is the fact that there are so many europians in america (what bullshit )
the hell with palestinians !

screw palestinians
all they want is for the jews to give back Israel
and this will never be done
israel is a jewish nation
and the true invaders are the people from all over the arab nation invading jewish land and calling themselves palestinians!
and they piont their fingers at the jews like they are the bad guys.
this would be the same thing as europians invading the usa and saying that this is the land of their ancestors and the proof is the fact that there are so many europians in america (what bullshit )
the hell with palestinians !