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Jeff Halper: One State. Preparing for a Post Road-Map Struggle Against Apartheid

by Jeff Halper, zmag.org
Now that Ariel Sharon and his Likudist ilk have destroyed the last chance for the two-state solution, the choice now comes down to one of either Israeli Apartheid towards the Palestinian people for perpetuity or one state for all its people in which everyone is equal under the law.
Everyone pooh-poohs the road map. From State Department and other "quartet" officials through the office of Ariel Sharon to international activists and the average person on the streets of Palestine and Israel, one would be hard-pressed to find a single believer in the "road map." From the start it has been dismissed as another failed initiative, joining a long line from Mitchell and Tenet to Gunnar Jarring and the Roger's Plan. But is it? In my view the road map possesses a significance that has been lost even on its adherents.

If The Road Map Fails: Permanent Apartheid

Looked at from the ground up, from the perspective of Israel's completion of its three decade campaign to create irreversible "facts on the ground," the road map represents the last gasp of the two-state solution. This is the crunch. As anyone who has spent even a few hours in the Occupied Territories readily understands, Israel has entered in the last phase of fully and finally incorporating the West Bank into Israeli proper, of transforming a temporary occupation into a permanent state of apartheid.

Sharon's implementation of Jabotinsky's doctrine of the "Iron Wall" establishing such massive "facts on the ground" that the Palestinians will despair of ever having a viable state of their own has reached its critical mass. The Israeli settlement blocs are so extensive, their incorporation into Israel proper by a massive system of highways and "by-pass roads" so complete and the Separation Wall physically confining the Palestinians to tiny cantons so advanced as to render any genuine two-state solution impossible and ridiculous. Given the unwillingness of the international community to force Israel's withdrawal from the Occupied Territories and in particular the American Congress's refusal to countenance any meaningful pressure on Israel, we may say that Israel is on the brink of emerging as the world's next apartheid state. Only the road map, the last dying breath of the two-state solution, stands between the hope of Palestinian self-determination in their own viable and truly sovereign (if tiny) state and the de facto creation of one state controlled by Israel. Rather than merely another failed initiative on the way to yet others, we must view the road map as a watershed in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Its final failure will alter fundamentally the entire nature of struggle for a just and sustainable solution to the Palestinian issue.

The problem has less to do with vision, content and process than with implementation. As a document, the road map has a number of commendable elements. It is the first international document approved by the US that calls for "an end to the Occupation." Indeed, it is the first that uses the term "occupation" at all, defying Israel's longstanding denial that it even has an occupation. It is also the first initiative that sets as a goal the establishment of a viable Palestinian state, putting it far beyond the vague and open-ended negotiations of the Oslo Accords. The mere use of the term "viable" raised hopes that the international community had finally gotten wise to Israel's strategy of creating "facts on the ground" that prejudice any negotiations and render a genuine Palestinian state impossible. The fact that the time-line was short and finite an independent, democratic, and viable Palestinian state living side by side in peace and security with Israel by the year 2005 stood the road map in good stead. So, too, did the performance-based, mutual nature of the process, monitored by the Quartet rather than by the Americans exclusively, and the fact that the terms of reference included UN resolutions, agreements previously reached by the parties and the Saudi initiative. Both in its content and structure the road map is a well-conceptualized, do-able and potentially just attempt at achieving "a final and comprehensive settlement of the Israel-Palestinian conflict."

But, as everyone knew from the start, the will to make it work was lacking. Four months after its release the road map appears almost dead in its tracks. Russia and the UN never entered into the process in the first place, and Europe, as is its wont, passed all responsibility to the US. Bush, dutifully, announced in Aqaba that the US would once again assume the role as the sole mediator, acquiescing to one of Israel's key "reservations." While much effort was expended ensuring "reforms" in the Palestinian Authority (including the undemocratic installation of a Prime Minister with no public credibility) and while a low-ranking State Department official was dispatched to deal with "security concerns," Israel's campaign to finally consolidate its hold over the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza proceeded unencumbered. Since no one had any illusions that the road map would produce any other result, there is no smug, self-congratulatory "I-told-you-so" attitude among its critics, nor any real sense of another missed opportunity. Instead there is a general hunkering down, a steadfast determination to continue the struggle against the Occupation regardless of how long it takes. The road map, alive only because it has not been declared dead, is on its way to being consigned to the dustbin of history, another one of the forgettable attempts to achieve a just peace in the Middle East.

The significance of the road map derives as much from its timing as its content. Coinciding with the completion of Israel's irreversible incorporation of the West Bank, only immediate international pressure to truly end the Occupation, to force Israel to withdraw fully from the territories conquered in 1967 (with minor territorial adjustments) will secure the fundamental requirement of the two-state solution: a viable and truly sovereign Palestinian state. If the road map fails or, more likely, falters, the initiative never being officially declared dead we enter into a state of de facto apartheid. Israel will be permitted to continue its incorporation process, the United States enters into an extended American presidential period in which no pressures will be applied on Israel at all, and another period of a year or two elapses before the next initiative is formulated. By that time even the illusion that a viable Palestinian state can be achieved will be finally gone. By its own hand Israel will have prevented the emergence of a viable Palestinian state and have created instead a single state. To be sure, Sharon, in signing on to the road map, declared his support for the two-state solution. The great danger facing Palestinians in the limbo of a non-dead road map process is that his version of a Palestinian state a truncated bantustan with no control of its borders, no freedom of movement, no economic viability, no access to its water resources, no meaningful presence in Jerusalem and no genuine sovereignty, one that leaves Israel with 90% of the country will be "sold" by the US as a viable Palestinian state, the successful outcome of the road map. This is Sharon's scenario. As advocates for a just resolution of the conflict we must be on guard against such an eventuality and develop effective strategies to defeat it.

The Impending Struggle for a Single State

The looming failure of the road map to prevent de facto apartheid in Palestine-Israel will fundamentally alter the entire nature of the conflict. Israel by its own hand has rendered a viable two-state solution impossible. The only Palestinian "state" that could emerge from Israel's matrix of control is a Palestinian bantustan. Assuming this is not an acceptable "solution," only one other possibility exists: the creation of a single state in Palestine-Israel. (I have suggested in previous writings that given the permanence of Israeli control a truncated Palestinian state might be acceptable as a part of a "two-stage" solution involving the establishment of a wider Middle East Union in which residency is disconnected from citizenship. This, however, is so unlikely at this stage, and the need to end the Occupation so acute, that it cannot serve as a plan of action for the immediate future.)

The stage is thus set for the next phase of the struggle for a just resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict: an international campaign for a single state. Since the Palestinian and Jewish populations are so intermingled (a million Palestinians live throughout Israel while some 400,000 Jews live throughout the Occupied Territories), the feasibility of a bi-national state, with the two peoples living in a kind of federation, seems unworkable. The permanency of Israel's presence makes it imperative to incorporate it into any workable political arrangement (though neutralizing it as an agency of control). Given this "reality" on the ground, the most practical solution seems to be a unitary democratic state offering equal citizenship for all. If that is the case, our slogan in the post-road map period will be that of the South Africans' struggle against apartheid: One Person, One Vote.

In this indeterminate twilight of the road map, we are still in a transition from the two-state solution in which our energies are devoted to ending the Occupation to a campaign for a single state which acknowledges that the Occupation is permanent and therefore seeks to neutralize its controlling aspects by creating a common state framework. None of the actors are yet ready for such a shift -- not the Palestinians, not the international community, not the peace and human rights activists, not world Jewry and certainly not Israeli Jews. Representatives of the Palestinian Authority have even suggested that raising the issue today is counterproductive since it goes beyond calls what even the most liberal proponents of peace are currently ready to accept.

As long as the road map offers a glimmer of hope that something can be done about Israel's Occupation, discussion of alternative scenarios will be by definition premature. Such discussion will inevitably come, however, if and when the road map process fails and the stark reality of Israel's permanent presence sinks in. Regardless of how we feel about a single state, it is time we begin to prepare ourselves conceptually and programmatically for such an eventuality and for the struggle an anti-apartheid campaign would generate. Following are a few of the elements that would inform such an effort:

(1) In our framing of the campaign for a single state, we should stress that as much as Israel might object, it is its own settlement and incorporation policies that are responsible. Since a Palestinian "state"-cum-bantustan, the only alternative entertained by Israel, is totally unacceptable and unworkable, Israel has brought the single state solution upon itself. A two-state solution that leaves Israel intact has been proposed by both the Palestinians and by the Arab League through the Saudi initiative. Indeed, it is a basic term of reference in the road map. As in the case of South Africa, however, where apartheid was put in place by white South African governments, Israel has only itself to blame if it has created, through its own settlement and occupation policies, a single state. Despite repeated warnings from the critical peace camp, successive Israeli governments, Labor as well as Likud, have locked the country into such a dead-end situation. The Israeli public may not support the vision of a "Greater Land of Israel" (recent polls say 65% of Israelis would like "separation" from the Occupied Territories), but its support of governments pursuing such policies makes it complicit and ultimately responsible. If the road map fails, it is in large measure because of the indifference of the Israeli public to its own leaders' subversion of the initiative. To turn around and then complain that the demand for a democratic state in the entire country is "anti-Israel" and "anti-Zionist" is downright disingenuous. When the struggle for two states becomes, as I believe it must, a struggle for one democratic state, we must make it crystal clear that this development arises exclusively out of Israel's refusal to countenance a viable Palestinian state on even 22% of the country. Perhaps the realization of where Israel is headed will finally impel its Jewish public to reject policies, parties and leaders that maintain the Occupation. In that case the two-state option may be revisited. Until that happens, however, the priority of a campaign for a single state has been dictated by Israel itself.

(2) We must shift the focus of our efforts from ending the Occupation (which, when the road map fails, we must all admit will never happen) to achieving a democratic state. The slogan "One Person, One Vote" should provide a common mobilizing call for an international movement that must reach the scope and effectiveness of the campaign against South African apartheid. Indeed, the emergence of a single state as an agreed-upon goal something we lack today will make organizing much easier. On the way we must continue, of course, to oppose the Occupation and all its manifestations, including the ongoing repression of the Palestinian people. We might even advocate certain intermediate steps, such as an international protectorate over the Palestinian areas, in order to freeze Israel's ongoing process of incorporation while protecting the civilian population. We must prepare ourselves nevertheless for the most likely upshot: a campaign against apartheid and for a single democratic state.

(3) We should couch our campaign in the language and requirements of human rights and international law. A campaign for a democratic state is intended to secure the rights of all the country's inhabitants; it is not against the Israeli people or seeking in any way to delegitimize Israeli society or culture. Upholding the notion that the security and well-being of all the peoples of the region is guaranteed only through a political solution that addresses every people's human rights and that national self-determination will have to find its expression through a regional Middle East Union we must present the single democratic state as a vehicle that will facilitate collective and individual rights rather than posing a threat. The fact that occupation and apartheid constitute fundamental challenges to a world ruled by human rights and law should also be a central message. Since the Israel-Palestinian-Arab conflict is emblematic to the Arab and Muslim worlds, certainly the notion that the international system will never find stability (including a response to terrorism) unless this issue is resolved will help raise wide concern over the effects of the conflict.

(4) We should call on the Jewish public Israeli and diaspora to avoid the suffering witnessed in the struggle against apartheid in South Africa and engage pro-actively in this best-chance for a just, secure and positive resolution to an otherwise irresolvable conflict. More than anything else, Zionism was about Jews taking responsibility for their own fate. A Jewish state has proven politically and, in the end, morally untenable. It is time we salvage the good parts of Israel its vibrant national culture, society, institutions and economy and let go of that which cannot be saved: exclusive "ownership" of a country in which the Jews will soon be the minority.

(5) We must recreate an international movement similar to the anti-apartheid one. This will be difficult; Israel has far greater credibility and support than apartheid did. But we find a way to link the many disparate NGOs and activist groups into a coherent and coordinated network focusing on the issue of the democratic state itself, then forge them into a worldwide movement that goes far beyond our various groups and networks.

The Unitary State of Palestine/Israel: Fears and Opportunities Although the establishment of a single democratic state in Palestine was long the program of the PLO, it is a truly wrenching option for many Palestinians today. Even if it acquires a Palestinian majority, a single state will have to incorporate a strong Israeli-Jewish society, culture, institutions and economy which, as in the case of the Europeans in South Africa, will not merely disappear. Besides having to share a state with others, thus not achieving full self-determination, some Palestinians fear that they may become a subordinate underclass in their own country. Thus, despite their grave doubts over implementation, many Palestinians are reluctant to abandon the road map or to contemplate the demise of the two-state solution.

For the Israelis, too, the prospect of a single state is obviously wrenching. Indeed, since a Jewish-Israeli state already exists, its transformation into a single state including a Palestinian majority is far more threatening to them. It means the end of Zionism, the end of a Jewish state qua Jewish state. But the Israeli public has only itself to blame.

Despite repeated warnings from intellectuals in the critical peace camp, it allowed successive governments, Labor as well as Likud, to lock it into such a distressing situation. The "two-state" solution envisioned by all Israeli governments since 1967 a cantonized Palestinian mini-state affiliated or not with Jordan is simply unacceptable, not only to Palestinians but also to the international community. Not only does it fail to address fundamental Palestinian needs, thus leading to continued conflict, but also as an apartheid system involves by its very nature massive violations of human rights and international law. Although we, as members of the international civil society must be prepared to fight Israeli apartheid, just as we led the struggle against apartheid in South Africa despite support for the regime from the US and other governments, we must proceed from the assumption that a new apartheid situation will not be countenanced by the international community and cannot serve as a political "solution."

As an Israeli, I must say that the prospect of a single state encompassing our two peoples challenges rather than threatens me. Even without the Occupation, the notion of a Jewish state is demographically impossible, and Israel faces a fundamental transformation. Most Jews some 75% of them never came to Israel. Wherever they had a choice, most Jews preferred to migrate elsewhere. The Jewish majority stands at only 72% and is dwindling in relation to the growing Palestinian-Israeli population, the influx of some 400,000 non-Jewish immigrants from the former Soviet Union, and large-scale emigration (it is estimated that up to a half million Israeli Jews live permanently abroad). Maintaining a "Jewish" state on such a narrow base is becoming increasingly non-sustainable. The measures Israel must take to ensure its "Jewish character" are becoming progressively more repressive. By law "non-Jews" are forbidden to buy, rent, lease or live on "state lands" 75% of the country. The Palestinian citizens of Israel, almost 20% of the population, are confined to 2% of the land. Only a few weeks ago the Knesset enacted a law preventing Palestinian citizens of Israel from bringing their spouses from the Occupied Territories to live with them in Israel. An Israel belonging to all its citizens and beyond that, a democratic state of Israel-Palestine will finally release us from the preoccupation with the "demographic bomb" and lead us into a productive involvement in the wider region. This "homecoming," after all, was a cardinal aim of Zionism, as was the creation of an Israeli culture and society that will only flourish under conditions of regional development. The Saudi offer of regional integration indicates that such an eventuality is indeed possible.

As cultural Zionists like Ahad Ha-am, Martin Buber and Judah Magnes argued, Jewish national identity does not require a state of its own, only a cultural space where it may develop and flourish. For all its shortcomings, the state of Israel provided that cultural space. The vitality of Israeli culture, society, polity and economy is no longer dependent upon a state structure, a kind of political "greenhouse." "Israeliness" has reached a stage of maturity that it no longer needs the protection of a state and, indeed, is being held back by it, since the conflicts that state generates prevents healthy social and cultural development. A true homecoming in which Israeli "natives" engage with their neighbors in a peaceful and prosperous Middle East marks, if you will, the ultimate triumph of Zionism ("triumph" in its own terms, not over anyone else).

Still, two major reservations of Jews to a single state must be noted and addressed. First, the issue of self-determination. For nationalist Jews, the issue of cultural development was subordinated to the perceived need to control their destiny, to never again be dependent upon others given the Jews' history of persecution. Since the vast majority of Jews chose to settle abroad and not in Israel (including a considerable portion of Israeli Jews themselves), this issue seems to be moot. It is doubly moot

given the fact that the Jewish majority in Israel is dwindling, and that exclusive control cannot be reconciled with democracy. For better or worse, the internal contradictions between control of one's destiny and living as a minority among others become too great to reconcile. Those of us in the Israeli peace movement would argue that Jewish security is best protected in an inclusive world order based on the enforcement of human rights and

international law. The other objection to a single state revolves around the issue of refuge. Where could Jews find refuge in a time of need a pertinent question given the Jewish experience (including recent ones of Ethiopian Jews). If the vision of a single state is founded on the belief that Israeli Jews and Palestinians can live together in peace and mutual respect, then this concern could be addressed by an article in the new state's constitution specifying that both Jews and Palestinians possess the right of return to the country, and that members of both peoples in need of refuge will be automatically accepted. The very enactment of such a law would go a long way towards assuring each people of the good intentions of the other.

For Palestinians, too, the prospect of a single state need not appear a concession to the idea of self-determination in a state of their own. A single state would give Palestinians access to the entire country and would resolve absolutely the issue of refugee return. Since the Palestinians will become the majority between the Jordan and the Mediterranean within a decade, they will exert a considerable measure of self-determination and will, to a large extent, set the tone for the country. The issue of Palestinian national expression still remains outstanding, however. Since 1948 the very character of the Palestinian people has been changed from a people living on its native land to a diaspora nation comprised of refugees, the "internally displaced" and those who have made new lives abroad. The vital Palestinian Diaspora will certainly play a key role in developing the Palestinian sector as well as the state as a whole, and will provide a counterweight to internal Israeli hegemony.

Although the failure of the road map marks the end of two nationalisms Israeli Jewish and Palestinian the prospect of a unitary democratic state offers integration, security, development, a mode of life far more conducive to the modern world than narrow sectarian states. If the road map fails and with it the two-state solution, it is hoped that Israel will finally realize the futility of pursuing the path of domination and apartheid, and will pro-actively seize the opportunity to create for itself and its neighbors a peaceful Middle East in which Israeli Jews and Palestinians together will be among the leading forces for democratization and development.


(Jeff Halper is the Coordinator of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions and the author of An Israeli in Palestine (Pluto Press: forthcoming). He can be reached at .)

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by bump
up to the top
by excellent article
Anyone interested in real peace based on JUSTICE in the middle east should read this.
by wtf
So the arabs control 99% of the middle east, the jews control less than 1%, and your solution to the problem is to allow the palestinians, many of whom want to kill off the jews, to flood into israel and make it all one place? That would make muslims/arabs the majority, jews the minority, and give free reign to hamas, islamic jihad and the portion of palestinians who want one giant muslim state (yet another one, mind you) with no jews at all to basically just go murdering the jews and chasing them out.

That's what you call justice and a fair solution? Moving hamas members into mostly-jewish israel? Gee, that's brilliant!



by rendipple
Quran (9:11) -- For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah; and there was peace.
by urban legend
Claim:   Quranic verse speaks of the "wrath of the Eagle cleansing the lands of Allah."

Status:   False.

Example:   [Collected on the Internet, 2003]

Quran (9:11) -- For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah; and there was peace.

Origins:   No, this isn't a legitimate quotation from the Quran (or Koran), the sacred text of Islam. The chapter and verse citation quoted above is a leg-pull, an obvious play on the USA's (the Eagle) launching of military action against Afghanistan and Iraq (the "lands of Allah") in response to the September 11 terrorist attacks on America organized by Osama bin Laden (the "son of Arabia awakening a fearsome eagle"). That the chapter and verse selection match the date of the terrorist attacks (9:11) is another giveaway to the joke.

Depending upon which translation of the Quran one uses, the section corresponding to chapter 9, verse 11 actually reads something like this:

But if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, they are your brethren in faith; and We make the communications clear for a people who know.

Last updated:   3 May 2003
 
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by absolutely no credibility
so you even copied the copy write warning??
(ROFLMAO)!!!!!!

THIS IS TOO FUNNY!
you have absolutely no credibility as a writer,
But perhaps a shining career as a "Circus Clown"
by hell
So the arabs control 99% of the middle east, the jews control less than 1%, and your solution to the problem is to allow the palestinians, many of whom want to kill off the jews, to flood into israel and make it all one place? That would make muslims/arabs the majority, jews the minority, and give free reign to hamas, islamic jihad and the portion of palestinians who want one giant muslim state (yet another one, mind you) with no jews at all to basically just go murdering the jews and chasing them out.

That's what you call justice and a fair solution? Moving hamas members into mostly-jewish israel? Gee, that's brilliant!
by Zionist Energizer bunnies
The Zionist bunnies just keep going and going and going and going...

They are incessant and repeat their lies over and over adopting Goebbels tactic ("a lie repeated a hundred times becomes the truth").

Zionists claim that asking Jews to live as EQUALS UNDER THE LAW with their Palestinian neighbors is tantamount to "pushing them into the sea".

One man one vote in ALL of Israel/Palestine is something that most people around the world would not object to, so Zionists have to up the ante and claim such a loss of superior rights as codified in current Israeli Law for Jews is genocide.

It's very similar to the anti-Semitism charge. They go into hysterics in order that everyone will not notice their deceit in trying to maintain the status quo.

This sort of reminds of a scene in one movie in which Mel Brooks played someone dressed up as a Rabbi. As he was passing through an airport checkpoint, he noticed that he had forgotten to remove his gun. So when the machine sounded, he cried "I beeped...I beeped, take me away, I beeped..." Needless to say, the security people let him through and similarly, in real life, Zionists employ this same tactic to try to suppress discussion of unwanted topics and exaggerate the meanings of certain settlements like "one man, one vote."
by wtf
No, "zionists" as you amusingly refer to those of us who don't obsess anti-israel lunacy on a constant basis, don't go crazy when you call for those things. We get angry when you go FAR BEYOND THAT and start making insane accusations about zionism being equal to nazism, making absurd claims that israel wants to take over the middle east, twisting every single aspect of this against the jews, start apoligizing for terrorism and pretend that arafat's leadership has nothing to do with the situation palestinians are in today, etc. etc. etc.

If you were fair about criticising Israel, people like me would barely utter a word.
by Angie

Is it any more terrible than having the IDF hanging out in Palestinian lands, with their own particular brand of terror, and having the Palestinians pushed further and further into the desert as Israel confiscates their land under the guise of "security", when, in reality, it's ethnic cleansing?
by anti bullshit
Pray tell,

1. what solid evidence of ethnic cleansing you have to substantiate your complaint?

2. which "Palestinian lands" have been confiscated lately? Please be specific.

3. Into which desert or desert areas are the Palestinians being pushed nowadays?

4. Which terrorism is the IDF practicing, other than the staging of military operations and the necessary acts of policing, under the circumstances?

If you don't provide valid answers, it will be evident you're just trumpeting baseless anti-Israeli bias.
by to anti-bullshit
Obviously you are in denial, and /or don't read the papers or the internet, and you just want to believe what you want to believe. Sorry, we don't have time to explain things to people who refuse to face the truth about Zionism and racist apartheid Israel. Thankfully, many people do want the truth-- they are the ones we will take the time to explain things to. Not dunces like you.
by anti bullshit
You barged in to a conversation where I'm addressing Angie and which you aren't part of.
No, I do not read the dubious and incredible sources you feed from for your news consumption and I'm not about to start doing so. I also don't care about your Truth (sic) (read: dogma). I assure you though that I don't watch Fox News or consume from other rather unreliable news outlets which mirror yours from the other side of the spectrum.
Many countries answer to your Apartheid standards. What's more, the Palestinians' racism (mostly in dogma, because they haven't run a state yet due to the PA's stupidity) is worse than Israel's.
You're deluding yourself there are hordes of people who can't wait to hear your gospel on this particular site. What a joke.
You are one of those who'll never provide proof for their dogma. That doesn't terribly sadden me.

Angie strikes me as a person capable of speaking for herself and one who doesn't need to be shielded from debate or protected by someone else, and I'm trying not to be rude, so please butt out.
by ANGEL
If you remove the faults in the Road Map a Two-State Solution can be Reached....
The Israelis can live in Peace in Israel and the Palestinians can Live in Peace in the West Bank and Gaza if they are allowed to have a State with Reasonable Borders...

For there to be Peace and for there to be a reason for the Palestinian People to stop their fight for Freedom:
We need a Palestinian State with Reasonable Border NOW, If the Road Map that is backed by the U.S., U.N., E.U., and Russia is to work...
Send in a Joint, U.S., U.N. Peace keeping Force to the West Bank and Gaza for the sole purpose of trying to avoid conflicts between the Palestinian and the settlers..
Then have the Biased (biased because they will always be on the side of the settlers) Israeli Military retreat to the pre 1967 Israeli Borders, They can then concentrate their effort on guarding this Border..

Example of a possible solution:
SET THE BORDERS BACK TO 1967...
In return the Refugees have no Right of Return inside the 1967 Israeli Borders..
One complaint that Israel has is that the Right of Return will result in two Palestinian States, (The Right of return is almost impossible any way because the land and homes they lost are now built up with Jewish homes businesses etc…)
The Refugees can be helped to settle somewhere in the new Palestinian State..
The Settlements are now part of Palestine...
If the some 300,000 Israeli Settlers living in Palestine do not like living there, they can move to Israel...
If the 1,000,000 or so Palestinians who now live in Israel do not like living in Israel, they can move to Palestine...
If 1,000,000 or so Palestinians can live in Israel, then some 300,000 Israeli Settlers can live in Palestine if they choose to stay..
If you take Israel, West Bank and Gaza, West Bank and Gaza is only 22% of the total area in Question, This small amount is not too much to ask for millions of Palestinians who must have their freedom to have a peaceful life.
If this solution was implemented there is a good chance the so called terrorist (seen as freedom fighters by the oppressed Palestinian People) would stop their fight, if not they would be very foolish because then Israel would have a just cause to fight back and the U.S. would have a just cause to help Israel fight back.
Otherwise we will continue to have:
Israel: We have to confiscate Palestinian land and demolish Palestinian homes because there are suicide bombers???
Palestine: We have to defend ourselves because Israel is slowly confiscating all our land and demolishing our homes. We have no military to defend ourselves and our land. If we do nothing, we will soon have nothing at all???
The era of colonization is past,. We can not expect to oppress millions of Palestinian People and still have peace.
West Bank and Gaza are only 22% of what is TODAY, Israel, West Bank and Gaza.
PLEASE LOOK AT THE MAP IN THE FOLLOWING WEB PAGE:
The Orange areas are Israeli settlements in the already small 22% that is West Bank and Gaza. What kind of carved up mess will the Palestinian State be unless all the settlements are removed (which will probably never happen) or just make the settlements part of the New Palestinian State (which can happen right now)??
CLICK HERE > http://mondediplo.com/maps/IMG/artoff3260.jpg

Who has died since the Intifada Began:
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

If you ratio the numbers out and compare them to the U.S. Population the numbers of Palestinians who have died would equal over 160,000 when compared to the U.S. Population...
The U.S. went to war in Afghanistan and Iraq because some 3000 or so People were killed in WTC 9-11, Why do we expect the Palestinians to just sit there and do nothing while their land is confiscated and their homes are demolished, leaving countless people homeless.....
by Angie
I couldn't agree more!
by Angie

Didn't see the above post(s) directed to myself. Will look at it when I return this evening.
by wtf
Israel is not "confiscating Palestinian land." Israel ALREADY CONTROLS IT. Israel for decades has been willing to give up control in exchange for peace, but as terrorist attacks have continued forever, Israel will continue to take the hint and just settle on the land.

See, again, if you people just made legit arguments about Israel being wrong for settling or somehow made valid points about Israel leaving and handing control to the UN or something (but not if they're going to give it to Arafat or Hamas), there would be much better conversations here. But you guys are so off the deep end and not only want Israel to back off but want "the zionists" wiped out, you make absurd exaggerations about israel's wrongs, some of you call for palestinians to flood into israel where the extermist portions could then murder the jews freely, forcing the jews to flee to another part of the world once again, etc.

Basically, you're wackjobs who just want to spread as much anti-israel stuff as you can, and you don't care which of it is true and which of it is nonsense.
by disagree
"willing to give up control "
Israel had many relatively peaceful years to give up control. The first initfada mainly involved rocks rather than bombs but the there want much movement.

I think the people who post about "destroying Isreal" on here are probably in favor of a single secular state. Jews and Palestinians would be able to live in their ancestral homes and governmental descrimination against both Jews and Muslims would be outlawed.

I dont think peoples hearts are in the wrong place, but it seems like an unrealistic demand in the short term. Instead of compromising both sides (and supporters of both sides worldwide) are moving farther apart. Arafat has always been a secular (albeit corrupt) force yet he has been attacked for years increasing the power of the fundamentalists. The insreasing talk of Zionist conspiracies by Palestinian supporters likewise only pushes Israelis (many who support a two state solution) into the hands of hardliners.

Most Israelis and Palestinians want peace. But I have doubts about the backers of Israel and the backers of Palestinians who dont have to live through the occupation and the bloodshed.
by Angie

Pray tell yourself, "Anti-Bullshit".

I can't believe you're asking for proof re Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. I thought everyone knew about it.

1. We can simply go back to 1948/49 when some 750,000 Palestinians were driven from their homes. You heard about that, didn't you? Since then hundreds of thousands more have been forcefully removed by having their homes demolished or taken over by Israeli Jews, iincidentally, not Israeli Arabs.

In a UN Report dated 13 November 2000 it is stated that in the seven years following the Oslo Agreement in September of 1993:

"Israel's confiscation of Palestinian land and construction of settlements and bypass roads for Jewish settlers has accelerated dramatically in breach of Security Council Resolution 242 and of provisions of the Oslo agreements requiring both parties to respect 'the territorial integrity and unity of the West Bank and Gaza Strip"

The report goes on to point out:

"Since 1993 the settler population in the West Bank and Gaza has doubled to 200,000 and increased to 170,000 in East Jerusalem."

(Note: These figures are only up to 2001)

The report also describes and condemns the demolitions of Palestinian houses, the diversion of water to Israeli cities and settlements, the policy of closures that has damaged Palestinian social and economic life, and the "widespread violation of their [Palestinian] economic, social and cultural rights" both within Israel and in the occupied territories. It also assails Israel's use of excessive force against Palestinians and hundreds of Intifada killings, "most of them unarmed demonstrators."

In his brilliant article, "Israel's Approved Ethnic Cleansing, Part 1, "Making "facts on the ground", Edward S. Herman writes:

"The settlements have been made in territory outside of Israel, technically "occupied" by Israel and subject to international law that clearly prohibits dispossession and settlement by the "belligerent occupying power" (the Palestinians are "protected persons" under the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949; violations of that Convention, including dispossession and settlements, are "war crimes").

"This systematic violation of international law has been going on for several decades, just as the creation of new "facts on the ground" in brazen violation of Article 31(7) of Oslo has proceeded since 1993".

See: http://www.ndtceda.com/archives200108/0381.html

As you know, and all of us sadly know, these "facts on the ground" have not ceased; in fact, they continue as we speak. More and more settlements spring up, expansion of settlements take over Palestinian lands. We see it on the evening news, sir. We read about it in the papers. We haven't fallen off the turnip truck yesterday.

You will recall that one of the requirements under the Road Map was that Israel freeze all settlements and dismantle 80 outposts. It hasn't done anything of any sort.

And as if you needed more proof of ethnic cleansing and theft of lands, all you have to do is look at the "Evil Wall" as Uri Avnery describes it.

In his article "The Evil Wall", he emphatically tells us that this is not a "security wall". We believe him, those of us who have studied it, and thanks to BBC and CBC News, we have done just that.

Take, for instance, the village of Mas'ha, a few dozen metres away from the large "settlement" of Elkana. Mas'ha is on the eastern side, but almost all of its lands are on the western side. The wall will cut the village off from 98 percent of its lands - olive groves and fields that stretch up to the Green line some seven km away, near Kafr Kassem.

The village chief, Anwar Amar, says "now they come again to take away our land".

Uri agrees:

"Indeed, the foul smell of "transfer" hovers over the wall. Its location leaves whole Palestinian villages on the western side trapped between the wall and the Green Line. The inhabitants will not be able to move, to find a livelihood, to breathe".

So, "Anti-Bullshit", what do you call that?

He goes on to add:

"One of the purposes of the wall is, without a doubt, to make the lives of the inhabitants hell, in order to convince them by and by to go away. It is a kind of 'creeping transfer'."

You want further proof? Read on:

"Historians can see this as a continuous process that started 120 years ago and has not stopped for a moment. It began with the eviction of the Felaheen from land that was purchased from absentee landowners and continued with the Nakba in 1948; the massive land expropriations from Arabs in Israel after that war; the expulsions during the 1967 war; the creeping eviction by means of settlements and by-pass roads throughout the years of the occupation; and now the expulsion caused by the wall".

See:
http://www.avnery-news.co.il/English/index.html

I don't know about you, sir, but if this is not ethnic cleansing, then I don't know what is.

Why don't you have a look at Angel's map and see what is being proposed as a "Palestinian state"; and then compare it to apartheid South Africa. If you're not horrified, you should be. So should all humanity. Enough is enough already.

Note: I can't remember what else you were going on about, so I'll have to cease this for the time being and read what else you were asking me.
by HJS
Israelis are Not responsible for teh actions of the zionist establishment anymore than amerixans are responisble for the horrific destruction being carried out in their names momentarily...
The accusations should be directed at the right culprit and the Jews are not the responsible entity carrying out this destruction in their names.
It is imperative that throughtful people of all sides of the political spectrum refrain from using the term zionists and jews to make a point, because you come across as bigots and antisemitic as well.
sincerely,
an activist!
by no
Most palestinians do not want peace. Every popular poll shows more support hamas' attacks than do not.

Most palestinians still support arafat over moderates.

As long as that's the case, palestinians will get nothing, and deserve nothing, and if that bugs them, immigrate to jordan or egypt or lebanon or syria.

If palestinians want their own state, step one is to be led by moderates who seek a real peace with the jews.








by Angie
Sorry about the two sites I quoted there. I don't know what the hell happens when I send one of these damn things on here. Does anybody? I mean, unless it got copied by me incorrectly or something.

Anyway with respect to Edward S. Herman, you can see his article at the following (and this worked, I checked!)

http://jerusalem.indymedia.org/news/2002/09/71809.php

As for the Uri Avnery site, I haven't got a clue why that isn't working. I just checked it again, and it worked here. I'll post it again in case I made a mistake:

http://www.avnery-news.co.il/english/index.html

I'm reading the rest of your note there, and I'll get back to you soon. The second question, I note, is answered in my response above.
by anti bullshit
Perhaps when you invoke "everyone" you mean your ideological friends on this site and elsewhere. Obviously it's not the entire public opinion.

1. In response to your wee post I asked about ethnic cleansing that has apparently occurred in recent years, actually as far as 1993 (though I haven't said so explicitly). You haven't provided any valid evidence to that effect. Not only have most Palestinians in the disputed territories since 1949 remained there, but hundreds of thousands more Palestinian have immigrated there from abroad, and Palestinian birth rates are the highest or among the highest on the whole planet. The bottom line is your ethnic cleansing accusations per 1993-present have no merit, Avneri's "Evil Wall" bit and others notwithstanding.

2. You have also failed to prove your allegation the Palestinians have been pushed in recent years into the desert.

3. Most Palestinians killed starting from the beginning of the intifada till now have been terrorists (combatants). The UN report (from Nov 2000!!!) you cited is "ancient history" as they say in the US. It's allegations of use of excessive force are ridiculous, as we all know (or should know) Ehud Barak was even more restrained than Sharon in his reaction to the intifada. You haven't provided evidence to substantiate your accusations of IDF anti-Palestinian terror.

Right now there's no proposition for any Palestinian state whatsoever, because Arafat has seen to it to sabotage the "road map" and hasn't even dismantled the Palestinian terror infrastructure. Too bad you're hearing on the news stuff that wasn't announced...I guess that's your wishful thinking kicking in. If you want to react in horror when looking at Angel's map, go ahead, knock yourself out. I for my part agree with "wtf"; it's a pity you and your friends can't get yourself to see the errors in your way and convert yourself to his opinion. You're way too pro-Palestinian to have a change of mind...
by ANGEL
Zionists may be Jews, but all Jews are not Zionists and many Jews are against Zionism.
We do not have to be anti-Israel or anti-Palestinian or anti Semitic to know that a fair and just solution needs to be reached.

We need for the Road Map to work because Israel will never share power with the Palestinians. They want their homeland. And they will not chance on the Population of Israel, West Bank and Gaza combined being of Palestinian Majority.
But if they want Peace they have to at least allow the Palestinians to have their State in the Whole of the West Bank and Gaza...

It would be much easier for the Israeli Superior Military to Guard and Control the Pre 1967 Israel Borders then for them to be seen as monsters who drop bombs from the Safety of the Cockpits of their Apache Helicopters on People in crowded areas where innocent people die and there is no way for them to defend themselves...Since they are not allowed a Military and Military Weapons equal to Israels....
by ANGEL
""Peace Please......
by ANGEL Monday September 22, 2003 at 03:32 AM""(Not the real ANGEL, was posted by a Coward who is afraid to use his/her own handle or How sad that he/she is mentally deficient.)

Correction:

Zionists may be Jews, but all Jews are not Zionists and many Jews are against Zionism.
I go through the Motions of stating I do not have to be anti-Israel or anti-Palestinian or anti Semitic to know that a fair and just Solution needs to be reached. But the Problem is with the Conclusions that I make from this Realization.

I want the Road Map to work because it seems that Israel will never share power with the Palestinians because they have been given tons of chances to reach a Real Agreement but just keep systematically obstructing and sabotaging every such Agreement. They claim that they want a place to call Homeland. And they will not chance on the Population of Israel, West Bank and Gaza combined being of Palestinian Majority.
But if the Palestinians want some Homeland in the West Bank and Gaza and Peace, they have to at least cease all the Terrorism and Violence against Jews completely...

I think It would be much easier for the Israeli Superior Military to Guard and Control the Pre 1967 Israel Borders then for them to be seen by the Palestinians as monsters who drop bombs from the Safety of the Cockpits of their Apache Helicopters on People in crowded areas where a few Innocent People die paying the price for what their Terrorist Compatriots had done... Since they are not allowed a Military and Military Weapons equal to Israel's due to their stupid Rejectionism and belligerency they have been perpetuating since 2000....
by ANGEL
I don't know... but if you don't then I know I will.

Israel: We have to confiscate Palestinian land and demolish homes of Palestinian terrorists because we have given these people tons of chances to make an agreement but the Palestinians are the dumbest people on earth.
Palestine: We have to defend ourselves because we are stupid and don't understand that attacking Israel doesn't help us. Even cats and dogs learn not to do things that hurt them, so why do the Paslestinians continue attacking Israel when all it achieves is Israel won't be able to trust them with land control????? The era of terror is past, We can not expect to terrorize millions of Jewish People and still have peace.

West Bank and Gaza are only 22% of what is TODAY, Israel, West Bank and Gaza. Of course, 80% of what was the territory of Palestine was turned into Jordan, so when people talk of a Palestinian homeland, Jordan is already on the bulk of that land territory. Israel and the west bank and gaza are a mere 20% of it, so why is everyone yelling that the Palestinians need "Palestine" back when it's a fact that 80% of what was Palestine is now Jordan? And the area where there were tons of Jews was turned into Israel? It seems with each war arabs made against israel, that's the only times israel got more land. Perhaps attacking the jews isn't helpful?
PLEASE LOOK AT THE MAP IN THE FOLLOWING WEB PAGE:
The Orange areas are Israeli settlements in the already small 22% that is West Bank and Gaza. What kind of carved up mess will the Palestinian State be unless all the settlements are removed (which will probably never happen) or just make the settlements part of the New Palestinian State (which can't happen right now)???? Boy I'm dumb...

CLICK HERE > http://mondediplo.com/maps/IMG/artoff3260.jpg

To end all atrocities on both side we need that Palestinian State Eventually (Wonderful Road Map) provided the Palestinians can find at least 10 or 20 of them who care more about a state than about killing Ira or Moshe.

Who is killing whom, anyway, to find out notice that when Palestinians successfully murder innocent civilians they brag about it, when Israelis kill innocent people they are regretful:

To end the resistance to the Occupation you have to end the Occupation that allows for the resistance….

Jordan is 80% of old Palestine, the remaining 20% is dvided up between Israel and the Palestinians, and with each war the Palestinians are losing more land, so you would think Palestinians would learn that peace is a solution and war is not, but they appear to be very very thick headed!

For there to be Peace there must be a way of teaching the Palestinian People not to be crazed idiots.
We need a Palestinian State with Reasonable Borders, unless the Palestinians continue to worship hamas murderers, then they deserve nothing but a one way ticket to Jordan, Syria or Lebanon. NOW, If the Road Map that is backed by the U.S., U.N., E.U., and Russia is to work...
Send in a Joint, U.S., U.N. Peace keeping Force to the West Bank and Gaza for the sole purpose of trying to avoid conflicts between the Palestinian and the settlers..
SETTING THE BORDERS BACK TO 1967 IS AN ABSURD SUGGESTION, WHAT COUNTRIES ON THIS PLANET EVER GET MADE TO GIVE BACK LAND THEY WON IN A DEFENSIVE WAR 36 YEARS EARLIER???
In return the Palestinian Refugees, who are still refugees because they are such horrible people that Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, IRan, Iraq and Israel ALL DON'T WANT THEM!
One complaint that Israel has is that the Right of Return will result in two Palestinian States, which is true, and that's why it is a ridiculous thing to suggest. Also, since jews don't get a right of return to arab countries that took their land, why would jews be asked to do it, especially after all the wars against the jews?
(The Right of return is almost impossible any way because the land and homes they lost are now built up with Jewish homes businesses etc…)
The Refugees can be helped to settle somewhere in the new Palestinian State..
The Settlements are now part of Palestine...
If the some 300,000 Israeli Settlers living in Palestine do not like living there, they can move to Israel...
If the 1,000,000 or so Palestinians who now live in Israel do not like living in Israel, they can move to Palestine...
If 1,000,000 or so Palestinians can live in Israel, then some 300,000 Israeli Settlers can live in Palestine if they choose to stay..
If this solution was implemented there is a good chance the palestinian terrorists who think it is impressive to murder innocent nice jewish people would probably keep right on attacking, since they are rabid lunatics, but at least maybe some nice palestinians might finally speak out against them.

Israel: We have to confiscate Palestinian land and demolish Palestinian homes because we hae given these people tons of chances to make an agreement but the palestinains are the dumbest people on earth.
Palestine: We have to defend ourselves because we are too stupid to realize that Israel isn't going to disappear, and attacking Israel does not help us. Even dogs and cats learn not to do things that hurt them, so why do palestinians insist on attacking israel when they know all it will do is prevent israel from being able to trust them with land control?????

You and I know that the hamsters who will not turn out the lights are like the palestinians who might not wish that you would see then if the kangaroos would simply put the lampshade over the drunken guy's head then the borders would be more accurate.

Who is Yasser Arafat and why is he such a useless idiot?
CLICK HERE > http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/arafat.html

If the Palestinians have so much history, how come there was no country called Palestine, there is no Palestinian language, the Palestinian culture is no different than Arabs in nearby countries, there is no past Palestinian government, etc.?????
CLICK HERE > http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/palestinians.html

Since it is a fact that Arabs had full control of Palestinian land from 1948 to 1967, why are the Palestinians still refugees? Why did Arabs control Palestinian land but just keep making war on Israel, lose the wars, and then still call these arabs "refugees?" Haven't all refugees on earth other than palestinians gotten on with their lives? Why did these people spend more time making wars then even forming a simple government when they had full control of themselves and had no reason not to do so?
CLICK HERE > http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/refugees.html

by ceejay
1) If Palestinians want to live side-by-side with Israel, then why do all their government logos and websites show Palestine encompassing all of Israel, with Israel nonexistent?

2) If a primary point of the road map is "confronting all those engaged in terror and dismantlement of terrorist capabilities and infrastructure," then why do the Palestinians demand that Israel release thousands of terrorists from prison, an item not even included in the road map? Instead, shouldn't the Palestinians be arresting terrorists themselves? And shouldn't we be outraged that the two suicide bombers who murdered 15 Israelis on Sept. 9, 2003 (Hillel Cafe and Tzrifin bus stop) were among a group of Palestinian prisoners released by Israel this year?

3) If Israel is supposedly allowed to "take all necessary steps to defend its citizens," then why is Israel condemned for building bypass roads so drivers can avoid ambushes, condemned for building a fence to keep suicide bombers out, condemned for targeted killings of terrorist leaders, condemned for operating road blocks to screen for suicide bombers, condemned for clearing areas used for launching rockets, and condemned for keeping terrorists in jail? How exactly is Israel expected to defend itself?

4) When the PLO first demanded a state in 1964, it wanted every part of Israel except the West Bank and Gaza (which were then in the hands of Jordan and Egypt). Is it reasonable to assume that they now want only the West Bank and Gaza, or is that more likely a Trojan Horse - as Palestinian leader Faisal al-Husseini described it in 2001, as a first step to destroy Israel?

5) Why is the targeted killing of terrorists and their supporters lauded when done by the United States in Iraq, but not when done by Israel whose civilians face a daily threat of terror attacks?

6) Why has the United Nations passed far more condemnations against Israel than any other country - including Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Chechnya, Saudi Arabia, Liberia, North Korea, and China combined - while millions were massacred in these other places? And then how does the UN expect Israel to accept it as an impartial mediator?

7) Why - if the Palestinian Authority has little freedom of speech and freedom of the press, little religious tolerance, is oppressive of Christians and other minorities, is corrupt at all levels of government, and is rife with vigilantism - is the creation of a Palestinian state a favorite "liberal" cause?

8) Why - after Yasser Arafat has proven for 40 years to be one of history's most incorrigible terrorists, while loyally backing dictators like Saddam Hussein - does the European Union still strongly support Arafat's leadership?

9) Why does the media call it "terror" when Al Qaida strikes at Western targets, but not when Hamas strikes at Israelis (or even American citizens in Israel)?

10) If the Palestinians truly want peace, why do their school textbooks vilify Israel and glorify suicide bombers? Why does the government-controlled TV station broadcast virulent anti-Semitic messages? Why do mosques regularly incite followers to jihad? Why are (UN supported) children's paramilitary training camps - masquerading as summer camps - named in honor of the most "successful" Palestinian terrorists (an indoctrination process that has resulted in 60-80% support for suicide bombings)?

11) Why does the world call the West Bank "occupied" if it never belonged to the Palestinians? [Jordan controlled the West Bank for 19 years after conquering it in a war of aggression. It previously belonged to the Mamelukes, the Crusaders, the Ottoman Turks, and then Britain.]

12) What other country would give control of its holiest spot (the Temple Mount) to another religion (which arrived 1,500 years later), and then permit them to systematically destroy ancient remains (to eliminate evidence of a 3,000-year-old Jewish presence) and allow that religious body to prohibit access to non-Muslims for three years?

13) Why does anyone doubt Israel's sincerity for peace, after offering 97 percent of the West Bank and Gaza in the Taba Talks in 2001, and having given back the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt - a territory three times the size of Israel constituting 91 percent of the territory Israel took control of in the 1967 war?

14) Why does the world demand the uprooting of Jewish settlements - effectively making those areas "Judenrein" (empty of Jews)? Would anyone tolerate a similar form of ethnic cleansing whereby Israel does not allow Arabs to live in areas under Israeli control?

15) If, during Oslo, Israel gave tens of thousands of machine guns and 40% of the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestinians (giving them control over 97% of their population), in return for the promise that "all future disputes would be handled without violence," and instead Israel got 18,000 terrorist attacks that killed 845 and wounded 4,898 people, a collapsed economy, intolerable daily life for its citizens, and its holy sites desecrated, why is Israel again being asked to negotiate with that same Palestinian leadership, trust their future promises, and place its security in their hands?
by Angie

I told you that I would get back to you. Geez, you have a major problem, don't you? I do have to go to bed sometime, man. Give it up why don't you?

You'll hear from me again later on this a.m. when I've had the dressing on my foot dealt with in Emergency. Apparently you are not really interested in anything except getting people annoyed. Don't try it with me because I'm not impressed.

Obviously you prefer not to believe the evidence of your own eyes. I gave you an answer taken from one of the most renowned authors in the US today. It dealt with 1993 speficially to 2001. If that doesn't answer your bloody question, I don't know what does.

Unless, of course, you wish to have every dwelling that's been bulldozed, bombed, etc., identified, together with the acerage, the names and addresses of each displaced person, and which settlement was erected where once a Palestinian family lived. If you want detail of that magnitude, hire a researcher.
by anti bullshit
Look gal, spare me reports of your personal problems which have no bearing on the issues being discussed on this board. I couldn't care less about your personal life. I was only seeking answers from you and am not regretful you've become annoyed.

You have only proved the accusation of land confiscation. You haven't been able to prove the other three accusations which are false indeed.

I don't see the point in discussing your accusations any further so please move on to some other topic.
by Angie

Pardon me for bothering to explain why I would be late responding to your annoying prattle. It certainly won't happen again be assured of that.

You and your pals can list off questions 'til you are blue in the face and elsewhere before I waste time acknowledging your "irritating" presence again. Or are you and 'Somebody" the same person? You both sound so totally annoying and full of it, so it's highly possible..

Your efforts to "convert" those of us with a brain in our heads and humanity in our souls is presumptious to such a degree it's disbelieving. That you would attempt to sway my views, be they pro-Palestinian or pro nowhere, says a lot for your audacity. I don't know what the hell you think we're dealing with here.

You want to talk about ethnic cleansing? You go do your own research, hire someone, as I indicated above. It shouldn't be too difficult. Yahoo has listed 40,600 sites.

So just run along and reinvent yourself. as simply "Bullshit". It is much more appropriate.

I have no desire to deal with NASTY, and that's one characteristic you and your pals have in abundance here, unless, of course, you're all the same person. Stranger things have happened..
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