The Politics of Antisemitism

There is no rational reason on earth why Jews and non-Jewish Palestinians cannot live together side by side in the same country of Palestine-Israel. As neighbors in the same neighborhood. Yea, even as neighbors in the same condo complex.

Blacks, Whites, Asians, Hispanics, Jews, Muslims, Christians all live together very peacefully in my lovely condo building right here in the Bay Area.

They can do this anywhere, and they will, in Palestine-Israel, when the world pressures Israel to transform as apartheid South Africa was. This is inevitable and the sooner the better that Israel is transformed into Palestine-Israel, a true secular democracy with completely equal rights for all regardless of religion, race, ethnicity or sex, including for all the Palestinian refugees who have the right to return to their ancestral homeland of Palestine-Israel according to UN Resolutions, International Law and world opinion.

It's kind of strange to see this proposed as a solution. Is there some reason to suppose that Israelis and Palestinians would better at succeeding in living in a single state than say Serbs, Croats, Slovenes, and Bosnians (to give an even more violent example) or Czecks and Slovaks (to give a much less violent example). Have you failed to notice the breakup of the Solviet Union?

Please correct me if some historical developments have passed me by, but last time I looked they hadn't yet managed the single state solution in Ireland. Surely THAT ought to be possible if as you seem to think it would be possible for Israel-Palestine.

I'd say that based on the evidence, this is NOT something that humans do very well.

Serbs, Croats, Slovenes, and Bosnians got along just fine for generations. Then German neo-colonialists backed the fascist HOM and it's clones in Croatia, and officially recognized the regime of that rasict, fascist, anti-Semitic puppet Tudjman. Then all h*ll broke loose.


The single state solution in Ireland awaits only the withdrawal of British imperialist troops. 26+6=1. Brits out now.

Wow, why are you guys so intent on trying to force the Jews to live with arabs who want to kill them?

It seems the only topics on this board relating to jews or israel are:
(1) antisemitism is exaggerated
(2) jews use antisemitism for their own greedy purposes
(3) we need to force the jews of israel to accept palestinians into israel so muslims can become a majority and control the place, while the select muslims who are antisemitic jew-haters will now have free reign to murder the jews.

This is fairness and progression? What the f*ck?

Why do you expect Arabs to live with Israelis who want to kill them? And do!

Now even you have outdone yourself. You just couldn't resist the impulse to say something - whatever first pounced up to your mind. What you posted was the dumbest kneejerk response I've seen for weeks now. You contributed absolutely nothing amd said zilch.
Answering your question: if those Arabs don't want to live with Israelis, they can move out to an Arab state.

'if those Arabs don't want to live with Israelis, they can move out to an Arab state. '

those ;'arabs' are palestinians, whose land was stolen by the jews. Its the latter who should move out.

You're lying. Don't pollute Indy with lies.

Arabs stole land from the Jews starting from circa 635 AD, when they invaded the Land of Israel a.k.a Palestine.
Most of the 'Palestinians' are the Arabs who have flocked in to the land starting from the late 19th century. If you don't want to check these facts out and acknowledge them, you're being dishonest and bigoted, not only totally ignorant.

> The bottom line is Israel's denial of Palestinians'
> right to a nation

Um, not quite. The Arabs (later called Palestinians) were given a state in 1919 called TransJordan carved out of land the British had promised the Jews. Then again in 1948 the Arabs were offered a state consisting of half of the western protion of the Palestinian mandate. This was answered with all out war.

Then again in 1978, 1993, and 2000, the Palestinians were offered a state which they rejected. In 2003, a road map for peace was accepted by the Israelis which would have established a Palestinian state by 2006. This has similarly been rejected by the power structure of the Palestinians (although accepted by the then Palestinian Prime Minister Abu Mazen who was denied any real power).

It seems the only ones who don't want a Palestinian state are the Palestinians

And you were there, right, back in 635 AD?

In most other sites on the net you would be laughed out of the chatrooms and forums. Take your wee head out of Avneri's, I. Shamir's texts and go read history books.
Godspeed.

You're wrong! You're a liar! You're wrong! You're a liar! You're wrong! You're a liar! You're wrong! You're a liar! You're wrong! You're a liar! You're wrong! You're a liar!
I hope you get sick (I hope your big toe really really hurts and that you run out of acetominophen in the middle of the night!) and that JA, that dipshit fucktard asswipe anti-Semitic fuckwit bigot, dies a slow painful death -- twice! -- from AIDS!!

(He's wrong and he's a liar too!)

(I forgot)

FUCK OFF!

And where the hell would you be?

I didn't think this was a "chat room".

In fact, it is NOT a chat room because I KNOW!!

It's a bit early in the day to deal with you, AA. As a matter of fact, it's always too early to deal with you.

A wee bit of nasty there just to let you know that I am not quite as "benign" as you would wish!

You may think I'm out to make you vulnerable as a person and hurt you but you couldn't be more wrong.
To me, the meaning of "benign" as far as you're concerned is that your outlook regarding all aspects of the Arab-Israeli conflict becomes much more balanced.
I wish you back a belated 'good morning'. Now, run away till you are ready to deal with me!

It's amazing how people type factual history at angie, and she responds with things like "oh, is that a fact?" and "it's too early in the morning to deal with you"

But later on, when JA or some lunatic spews absurd hateful nonsense, she'll chime in and applaud.

Yes, it is a fact that the british promised the jews a giant region of land, then chopped off 80% of the TERRITORY OF PALESTINE (which had been fought over for many centuries and run by different people) and made it into Jordan, decades before the arabs there started calling themselves Palestinians (instead of just "arabs") - and Jordan was a giant MUSLIM-ONLY state, and the REMAINING 20% (or so) of the land was to be divided between the jewish populations and the arab populations into a jewish and arab state, and the jews accepted it, and the arabs rejected it and then spent decades trying to kill the jews instead of forming their own state, until finally in 1967 israel won that war and controlled that entire region (which was still only about 20% of what was the territory called Palestine), and to this day Israel repeatedly offered land control in exchange for peace, but palestinians prefer to attack, and as they keep it up israel can and will and should just keep settling and offering them less and less.

It's a shame that israel has to deal with these people. Israel is 1/3 of the world's jews now, and jews should be doingwhat they always do, getting graduate degrees and making advances in medicine and science and art, instead of having to try to negotiate land-for-peace deals with people who just want to murder them.

>Most of the 'Palestinians' are the Arabs who have flocked in to the land starting from the late 19th century.

>Most of the 'Israelis' are the Jews who have flocked in to the land starting from the late 19th century.

Neither Jews nor Arabs got there first.

See:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/12/1549004_comment.php#1550225

The "factual" comment from AA that I responded to on my way out the door to Emergency was, and I quote:

"In most other sites on the net, you would be laughed out of the chatrooms and forums. Take your wee head out of Avneri's and I. Shamir's texts and go read history books. Godspeed".

I responded as per the above.

If this is a "factual" remark, wow, "factual" has been redefined.

With respect to "Godspeed" I am not sure if AA meant it in the manner one would expect of if he was wistfully hastening my departure from "the Net".

But, as i stated before, I'm "Boldly Going Nowhere". So get used to it, and while you're at it, try to have Truth on your side once in a while, hmm?

"anti Angie" is no longer welcome here. Neither is anyone else who acts like that. That comment was the last straw. It's abuse of our hospitality and we will not permit it. All future posts by "anti Angie" will be removed as soone as we see them. If you see one we missed, please email us immediately. We can be reached at:

imc-sf-editorial [at] lists.indymedia.org

I think the Commentary section needs more anti-Israel and anti-zionism topics. There are only eight hundred million of them.

Gee, I wonder why we jews feel like you're singling us out. I can't imagine why. I must be stupid and paranoid or something.

Zionists are being singled out, and not just by the people who post on SF-IMC, but by literally billions and billions of people, all across the globe. Why? Because Zionists behave like small time Nazis.

If you want Israel to be out of the spotlight then convince it to either vacate the occupied territories and allow the Palestinians there to finally be free (and give equal rights to Israel's Arab citizens) or declare one state in which all the citizens of the state live as equals under the law, with one man one vote and no laws designed to give Jewish citizens more rights.

Otherwise, don't expect people with a conscience and knowledge of what's going on to stop talking about Israel. Mainly because we pay for it all to the tune of billions every year.

Tell that to the Jews in France who are being harrassed by Muslims on a regular basis. Tell that to Jews who have had their synagogues burned. Why don't these cowards attack the Israeli embassy if they are opposed to Zionism? Why attack Jews and Jewish religious buildings?

that the people who attacked the Jews in France are the ones who post on this board, or that the SF-IMC staff are the people who attacked the Jews in France?

Right. Not only that, Arabs have been under constant attack here in the US not just by the government but also by fellow citizens who have vandalized Arab churches and mosques and harassed Arab-American citizens killing many recently (and this precedes 9-11 but was exacerbated by it).

Not to mention, around 10,000 Iraqis were gunned down or bombed just recently and still more are dying daily at American checkpoints in their own country.

It is awful whenever Arabs or Jews are singled out, but those who do it are certainly not anti-racist or pro-justice. They are often really stupid people who adopt the collective guilt concept as a guiding principle.

"Just Wondering", here is your comment I was responding to:

"Jews are not being singled out. Zionists are being singled out, and not just by the people who post on SF-IMC, but by literally billions and billions of people, all across the globe."

I was not refering specifically to IMC but the "billions and billions of people, all across the globe" who you feel are attacking Jews b/c they are Zionists and I feel are being attacked b/c they are Jews. And this is not only going down in Europe, HAMAS and other Palestinian groups routinely demonize Jews as Jews, not as political Zionists.

To restate my question again, why are these people attacking synagogues and not symbols of Zionist state power like embassies? One seems to me to be a religious building, the other a government building. If you are against Zionism--a political ideology associated with a nation-state--why attack a religious building. If Zionism does not equal Judaism why are these people attacking Jews?

And to "Also," who writes:

"Not only that, Arabs have been under constant attack here in the US not just by the government but also by fellow citizens who have vandalized Arab churches and mosques and harassed Arab-American citizens killing many recently."

How do you define many? I do not doubt that Muslims have been harrassed but how many have been killed? Did you throw the word "many" in there to boost your claims?

> Arabs have been under constant attack here in the
> US not just by the government but also by fellow
> citizens

Yes, that is the mantra, but the reality is a bit different, at least in California.

According to the hate crime statistics, sorry don't have the link handy, hate crimes against Arabs and Muslims declined by 50% from 2001 to 2002. I don't know if that takes into account a rise in hate crimes against Arabs and Muslims following 9/11 if there was one in California.

Hate crimes against Jews remained static.

Meanwhile, anti-semetic incidents (including hate crimes, grafitti, harrassment etc.) rose by 800% in Northern California between 2001 and 2002. Yes, that was EIGHT HUNDRED PERCENT. Guess where almost all the incidents were reported? Yup, that's right, San Francisco and Alameda counties.

Must have all been anti-Zionists, huh?

How convenient.

This is for 2001, don't know about 2002:

The five states with the highest numbers of hate crime were: California (2,246 incidents, 23.1% of total reported incidents), New Jersey (767, 7.9%), New York (712, 7.3%), Massachusetts (584, 6.0%), and Michigan (442, 4.5%). These five states comprise 48.8% of all incidents reported in the United States.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/01hate.pdf

This is for 2002 to 2003:

New York, NY, March 26, 2003 … The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) remains "deeply concerned" at the number and frequency of anti-Semitic acts reported in 2002 across the United States. According to the annual ADL Audit of Anti-Semitic Incidents, issued today, a total of 1,559 anti-Jewish incidents were reported against Jews and Jewish institutions in 2002, a slight increase from the 1,432 incidents in 2001. At the same time, anti-Jewish incidents reported on campus were up by 24 percent in 2002.


Graph: ADL Audit of Anti-Semitic Incidents, 1982 -2002 (National)


ADL's Audit serves as one barometer for anti-Semitism in the U.S. It is compiled annually using data gathered by the League's 30 Regional Offices and law enforcement.

"We are deeply concerned that despite the strides we have made over the years, anti-Semitic incidents continue to be carried out in large numbers," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director. "While we can take comfort that this year's numbers have not increased substantially, it is unsettling that we are still experiencing anti-Semitism at an average rate of four incidents per day. It demonstrates there is a real need for continuing education and outreach."

Anti-Semitic incidents included in the Audit comprise physical and verbal assaults, harassment, property defacement and vandalism, hateful e-mail messages and other expressions of anti-Jewish sentiment. Among the most serious incidents reported in 2002 were three arsons, three attempted arsons, one attempted bombing, six bomb threats and seven cemetery desecrations.

The Findings

In 2002, a total of 1,559 incidents were reported in 41 states and the District of Columbia. That figure was up more than eight percent (8%) from the 1,432 incidents reported in 2001. More than two-thirds of the incidents reported comprised acts of harassment, including intimidation, threats and assaults.

For reporting purposes, the ADL Audit divides anti-Semitic incidents into two categories: Harassment, including threats and assaults directed at individuals and institutions; and Vandalism, such as property damage, cemetery desecration or anti-Semitic graffiti. In 2002:


Harassment accounted for two-thirds of all incidents reported. Anti-Semitic activity reported in 2002 comprised 1,028 acts of harassment, a 17 percent increase over 2001. The rise in the number of harassment incidents may reflect that those inclined toward anti-Jewish hostility are resorting to forums such as Internet chat rooms, bulletin boards and e-mail in greater numbers.


Vandalism against Jewish community institutions, synagogues and property remained at historic lows. ADL counted 531 reports of anti-Semitic vandalism in 2002, a four percent (4%) decrease from 2001 and marking a 20-year low. Over the past three years, the number of vandalism incidents reported annually to ADL has declined by 27 percent.

"With the ongoing threat of terrorism, synagogues and Jewish institutions in the U.S. have by and large followed ADL's recommendations for making security awareness an everyday concern," Mr. Foxman said. "That, plus the increased presence of law enforcement working with communities to prevent attacks, has worked as a deterrent against anti-Semitic attacks. On the other hand, vandalism incidents are still a major concern. And we are also concerned that anti-Semites and bigots are finding other outlets for spreading hate, especially on the Internet, where they can enjoy virtual anonymity."

Among the more violent attacks in 2002:
In Oakland, California, a synagogue sustained thousands of dollars in damage in an arson incident.
In Nashville, Tennessee, police arrested a man who was seen aiming a gun at a synagogue; a later search of his home turned up a large cache of weapons and anti-Semitic hate literature from the neo-Nazi National Alliance.
In Worcester, Massachusetts, more than 120 gravestones were overturned in three separate attacks on the Hebrew Cemetery of Auburn.

The states showing the largest numbers of reported incidents in 2002 were New York: 302 (down from 408 in 2001); California: 223 (up from 122 in 2001); New Jersey: 171 (down from 192); Massachusetts: 129 (up from 126); Pennsylvania: 101 (up from 61); and Florida: 93 (down from 115).

Anti-Semitism on Campus

Anti-Semitic incidents on campus increased for the third straight year to a total of 106 incidents, an increase by 24 percent over 2001, when 85 acts were reported. Many of the 2002 incidents grew out of anti-Israel or "anti-Zionist" demonstrations or other actions in which some participants engaged in overt expression of anti-Jewish sentiments, including name-calling directed at Jewish students, placards comparing the Star of David to the swastika, or vandalism of Jewish property, such as Hillel buildings. Anti-Israel rallies were not included as incidents in the Audit unless there was an overt manifestation of anti-Semitism during the event.

One of the most troubling episodes took place at the University of Colorado, where Jewish students were confronted by an angry, threatening crowd yelling "Nazis!" and other epithets as they held a peace vigil in September. In the ensuing weeks, "Jews rot in Hell" was spray-painted on a Jewish fraternity house, and a Sukkah was defaced with a swastika.

Hate on the Internet

The Internet continued to play a substantial role in the dissemination of anti-Semitism, with hate literature being transmitted through hundreds of sites on the Web and through bulletin boards, chat rooms and e-mail messages. While Internet messages are not generally categorized as incidents of hate in the ADL Audit, specific threats aimed at Jewish synagogues and institutions via e-mail were counted. Still, it is virtually impossible to quantify the number of anti-Semitic messages online.

Web sites operated by anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers are easily found on the Internet and provide haters with the ability to reach a potential audience of millions with literature and recruitment materials. These sites also can serve as an impetus for anti-Semitic incidents; for instance, anti-Semitic fliers can be downloaded from Web site and distributed by anyone with a computer and printer.

About the ADL Audit

The Audit identifies both criminal and non-criminal acts of harassment and intimidation, including distribution of hate propaganda, threats and slurs. Compiled using official crime statistics, as well as information provided to ADL's 30 regional offices by victims, law enforcement officers and community leaders, the Audit provides an annual snapshot of a nationwide problem while identifying possible trends or changes in the types of activity reported.


The Anti-Defamation League, founded in 1913, is the world's leading organization fighting anti-Semitism through programs and services that counteract hatred, prejudice and bigotry.

http://www.adl.org/presrele/asus_12/4243_12.asp

The recent statements of Palestinian leaders warning of "grave consequences" of the "provocative" decision by Israel to allow Jews to visit the Temple Mount are only the latest in a history of attempts by Arab leaders to minimize or deny the historical connection between Jews and the Temple Mount. Arab newspapers and speakers consistently refer to Jewish connections to the Temple Mount as "alleged."


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HISTORY

The Temple Mount, which Arabs refer to as the Haram al-Sharif and on which today the Al-Aqsa Mosque is located, is the site on which the biblical King Solomon erected his Temple nearly 1000 years before the Common Era (see I Kings 5:15-7:51). This First Temple was destroyed by the armies of the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar in the sixth century BCE, and was replaced by a Second Temple some seventy years later. The Second Temple was destroyed in the year 70 C.E. by Roman armies, whose victory was immortalized in the Arch of Titus that may be seen in Rome to this day. Jews have venerated the site of the two Temples and have made pilgrimages there for two thousand years. According to some rabbis, Jewish law prohibits Jews from entering the Temple Mount before undergoing rituals of purification that are not currently practiced; partly as a result of this prohibition, Jews for millennia have prayed at the Western Wall of the Temple Mount, outside the Mount proper.
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"For 34 years [the Israelis] have dug tunnels [around the Temple Mount]…they found not a single stone proving that the Temple of Solomon was there, because historically the Temple was not in Palestine [at all]. They found only remnants of a shrine of the Roman Herod… They are now trying to put in place a number of stones so that they can say 'We were here.' This is nonsense. I challenge them to bring a single stone from the Temple of Solomon."



Yasser Arafat
Al-Hayat (London), October 5, 2002
[Trans. MEMRI and BBC Worldwide Monitoring]

"The claims being made by the rulers of Israel and its rabbis about the alleged Temple are pure fabrications without any base or foundation."


Statement by the Higher Islamic Authority of Palestine
Al-Quds (PA), December 28, 2001
[Trans. BBC Worldwide Monitoring]

Sabri: There is not [even] the smallest indication of the existence of a Jewish Temple on this place in the past. In the whole city, there is not even a single stone indicating Jewish history. Our right, on the other hand, is very clear. This place belongs to us for 1500 years. Even when it was conquered by the Crusaders, it remained Al-Aqsa, and we got it back soon afterwards. The Jews do not even know exactly where their Temple stood. Therefore, we do not accept that they have any rights, underneath the surface or above it.

Die Welt: It is agreed among archeologists that the Wailing-Wall is part of the foundation of Herod's temple. The Bible and other antique sources report about this place in detail. Why can't you respect the Jewish connection to this place?

Sabri: It is the art of the Jews to deceive the world. But they can't do it to us. There is not a single stone in the Wailing-Wall relating to Jewish History. The Jews cannot legitimately claim this wall, neither religiously nor historically. The Committee of the League of Nations recommended in 1930, to allow the Jews to pray there, in order to keep them quiet. But by no means did it acknowledge that the wall belongs to them.

Die Welt: Why don't you allow Israeli scientists to dig there to look for possible remnants and proofs for or against the existence of the Jewish temple?

Sabri: We categorically reject all excavations under the Al-Aqsa mosque, because they would endanger the historical buildings on the site. Besides, they have already dug everywhere. All they could find were remnants of buildings from the Omayyad-period. Everything they excavated was related to Arabs and Muslims.


Sheikh `Ikrima Sabri
PA-appointed Mufti of Jerusalem
Interviewed by German magazine Die Welt, January17, 2001
[Trans. MEMRI]

"As is known, the Jews have no religious shrines in the Palestinian territories, especially in Jerusalem, except this claim for which there is no religious or historical proof -- the claim that the Temple of Solomon or its ruins are buried under the foundations of the blessed Al-Aqsa mosque!"


Al-Jazirah (Saudi Arabia) editorial
December 29, 2000
[Trans. BBC Worldwide Monitoring]

"President Arafat said that no one can impose anything on us with regard to Jerusalem. He pointed out that there are attempts to usurp parts of Jerusalem, like the Armenian neighborhood. He added: I cannot accept that. I cannot betray the Armenians' property and churches, because these are integral parts of holy Jerusalem. He reiterated that the Wailing Wall [the Western Wall], as they call it, is Al-Buraq Wall which is an Islamic waqf religious endowment since the issuance of Umar's Covenant. He noted that it was the Shore phonetic Committee which allowed the Jews to pray in that place. He said that Al-Buraq Wall is the property of Islamic Awqaf. He added that even chief rabbis prevented prayers there, because it was not proven yet that the temple is located there."


Voice of Palestine (Ramallah)
September 3, 2000
[Trans. BBC Worldwide Monitoring]

"[The Israelis] claim that 2000 years ago they had a Temple [on the Temple Mount]. I challenge the claim that this is so. But even if it is so, we do not accept [current Israeli claims on the Temple Mount]."


Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen)
Kul Al-Arab (Israel), August 25, 2000
[Trans. MEMRI]

"No stone of the Al-Buraq wall [the Western Wall] has any relation to Judaism. The Jews began praying at this wall only in the nineteenth century, when they began to develop [national] aspirations…"


Sheikh `Ikrima Sabri
PA-appointed Mufti of Jerusalem
Kul Al-Arab (Israel), August 18, 2000
[Trans. MEMRI]

"[The Israelis] are insisting on sovereignty over the Al-Aqsa mosque on the pretext that an Israeli Temple is buried beneath it and that, through their continued sovereignty, they can one day unearth it…Their claim was not substantiated by the excavations they carried out around and under the mosque. However, they insisted on their demand to pray in the courtyard of the mosque."


Nabil Sha'ath
PA Minister of Planning and International Cooperation
Voice of Palestine (PA), July 26, 2000
[Trans. BBC Worldwide Monitoring]

"[Sheikh Yusuf Salamah, Undersecretary of the PA Awqaf and Religious Affairs Ministry] warned of the dangerous excavations which the Israeli Antiquities Department is carrying out under the [Al-Aqsa] mosque [on the Temple Mount]. He underscored that the holy city is Arab and Islamic and pointed out the failure of all Israeli attempts and claims with regard to the existence of the Temple."

>The Temple Mount, which Arabs refer to as the Haram al-Sharif and on which today the Al-Aqsa Mosque is located, is the site on which the biblical King Solomon erected his Temple nearly 1000 years before the Common Era (see I Kings 5:15-7:51).


That's one opinion, but not the only one.

See:

http://www.bibarch.com/BooksnMor/0945657951.htm

(snip)

Is the site of the Dome of the Rock that of Herod's Temple? Do Palestinians control the ancient site of God's Temples? Is the famous Western Wall, part of today's Haram esh-Sharif venerated by Jews, part of the Temple Mount in Herod's day? Not according to the evidence developed by historical and biblical scholar Ernest L. Martin.

(snip)

* * *

http://www.bibleprobe.com/templebomb.htm

(snip)

s it inevitable that the Temple Mount will explode, taking both Israelis and Arabs to the gates of hell? Dr. Ernest L. Martin, a forty-year historian on Jerusalem, thinks not.

In March of 2000 he published a surprising new book, The Temples that Jerusalem Forgot, which argues that the Jewish Temples never were built on the present "Temple Mount" and actually were located a fourth of a mile south over Gihon Spring.

Upon first hearing, Martin admits, the thesis sounds incredible. But Martin bases his conclusions on multiple lines of evidence, biblical, historical and geographic.

He further claims that Dr. Benjamin Mazar, the former president of Hebrew University and leading Jewish excavator outside the Haram walls from 1967 to 1978, was leaning toward the same conclusion before his death.

If anything, since its release a year ago, Martin's book has caused scholars to take another look at the works of Flavius Josephus, who offered eyewitness accounts of the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple in A.D. 70.

One eyewitness worth examining is Eleazar, the Jewish rebel commander at Masada in A.D. 73. In The War of the Jews (VII.8,6), Josephus cities him as saying, "Where is this city that was believed to have God himself inhabiting therein? It is now demolished to the very foundations, and hath nothing left but that monument of it preserved, I mean the camp of those that hath destroyed it, which still dwells upon its ruins."

Martin claims that a proper reading of Eleazar's quote would support the view that only the Camp of the Roman Tenth Legion was left standing among the ruins of Jerusalem's city and temple.

Martin identifies the Haram esh-Sharif as that remaining camp or Fort Antonia, which Herod named after Mark Anthony. He shows how the Haram's 35 acres were comparable in size and water supply to other Roman fortresses built to guard occupied cities.

Martin writes, "Josephus reported that Fort Antonia was as large as a city and could hold a full Legion of troops, or 5,000 soldiers plus support personnel. Although Herod the Great had built it up since the year 6 A.D., the Romans had used the camp as their base, and they had no reason to destroy it after the war. As a security measure, the Roman Empire continued to use Antonia to house the Tenth Legion after the fall of Jerusalem and remained there for more than 200 years."

Furthering buttressing the thesis that the Haram is indeed Fort Antonia is testimony from various Church Fathers and pilgrims from the fourth to sixth centuries that spoke of a large rock outcropping as the Praetorium—where Pilate judged Jesus (John 18:20). The Dome of the Rock would later be built over this permanent natural feature. In contrast, Martin claims, the Temple was built over a threshing floor, and its "foundation stone" was movable.

Wailing at the Wrong Wall?

If Martin's thesis is correct that the Haram was Fort Antonia, it would cast in doubt an unquestioned modern-day Jewish tenet: that the "Wailing Wall" was part of the walls enclosing Herod's Temple.

By connecting a series of historical dots and clues which others have overlooked, Martin documents that two "western walls" were known to Judaism before the time of the Crusades. Neither was a remainder of the Second Temple and neither was located near the present "Wailing Wall." Both were aborted attempts to rebuild the Third Jewish temple under the Roman Emperor Constantine from A.D. 313 to 324 and later under Julian in 362.

Over the past 130 years archaeologists have confirmed that the original City of David was built on the southeastern ridge of Jerusalem, where Martin claims the Jewish Temples were located. What changed the prevailing opinion that Jerusalem grew up on its western hill was the famous discovery of Hezekiah's water tunnel under the Ophel mount in the 1870s.

Martin feels that archaeologists were right a century ago to move the site of David's ancient city to southeast Jerusalem, but failed at that time to reevaluate their traditional thinking about the location of the Jewish Temples.

The confusion over Jerusalem's geography, Martin claims, began a century and a half before Jesus' time. In the days of Simon the Hasmonean, Mount Zion, also known as the Akra or stronghold, had become indefensible. Jewish leaders then literally leveled down "Mount Zion," which overlooked the Temple. Over a period of three years the entire geography of Jerusalem was changed, as a "New Jerusalem" was built on the western hill, save for the Temple itself.

The Actual Temple

Martin also turns to biblical statements to show that the original tabernacle of David and the Temple of Solomon were built above Gihon Spring (2 Sam. 6:17, 1 Kg. 1:38-39). Martin claims that ancient Jewish law required that a live spring be located within the Temple for ritual purification. The Davidic psalms testify that "living water" flowed through the temple (Ps. 46:3,4; 87:1-2,7).

There even exists two extra-biblical confirmations of the Temple containing a water source. Martin writes, "We have the eyewitness account of a person from Egypt named Aristeas who viewed the Temple in about 285 B.C. He stated quite categorically that the Temple was located over an inexhaustible spring that welled up within the interior part of the Temple." He also cites Roman historian, Tacitus, in about A.D.105, stating that "the Temple at Jerusalem had within its precincts a natural spring of water."

No natural springs have ever been found within the Haram esh-Sharif, only cisterns for collecting water. Geologically, the only natural spring in Jerusalem for five miles in any distance is Gihon Spring.

Martin documents how the Islamic rulers from the seventh to the eleventh century allowed the Jews to live near their Temple ruins at the Gihon, but forbade them to enter the Haram, further showing that the locations were not synonymous.

"What has been amazing to me," Martin writes, "is the vast amount of Jewish, Muslim, and Christian records that remain available from the first to the sixteenth centuries that clearly vindicate the conclusions that I have reached in this book."

Taking Josephus' descriptions at face value, Martin has recreated a depiction of Herod's Temple and Fort Antonia and with architectural precision. If one would have stood on the southern slopes of the Mount of Olives and looked northwestward they would see these two buildings occupying the greater part of eastern Jerusalem. According to Josephus, the Temple site was shaped as a perfect square of 600 feet on each of its four sides, and towered upward from the floor of Kidron Valley some 450 feet, or forty stories. Fort Antonia lay to its north by another 600 feet, connected by double colonnades. Slanted flagstones surrounded Fort Antonia on its east for external protection.

Not everyone is impressed by Martin's renderings. From 1973 to 1978, Dr. Leen Ritmeyer served as the lead architect associated with the archaeological excavations of the Haram's south walls. As author of Secrets of Jerusalem's Temple Mount (Biblical Archaeology Society, 1998), Ritmeyer feels that Martin ignores "the archaeological evidence that has been excavated in Jerusalem." If the Temple Mount was merely a Roman Camp, he asks, why have Hebrew inscriptions such as the "Trumpeting Stone" been found at the base of the Haram walls in Herodian strata? Martin claims the fallen inscription from top of the southwest wall could just as easily be related to military camp life and revelry than to summon people for the Sabbath. As for the inscription in Hebrew, Martin notes Fort Antonia was built by Herod the Great for his own soldiers, long before the Tenth Roman Legion arrived.

Martin claims his theory is consistent with excavations done both outside and within the Haram. He notes that a hundred years ago, Sir Charles Warren, the great surveyor of Jerusalem, meticulously examined all the nooks, crannies, holes, cisterns and tunnels beneath the Haram, and found no archaeological remains identified with the Second Temple.

(snip)

* * *

this:

http://askelm.com/temple/t980504.htm

You flee when confronted with the truth.

No, you are posting sources totally devoid of credibility, with quotes that cannot be verified and even so don't "prove" anything. But it should be expected here to always, ALWAYS find people who will dig up negative crap just to hurt in some way the jews.

No one is fleeing from you. It's just that, there's nothing to say.

1) The ADL is just a squiggly, slimey spy organization for Israel. The ADL itself has virtually become a hate crime. The ADL even spied on, then, anti-South African apartheid activists--for Israel and apartheid South Africa, as well as the police. For more information about this, just put Jeffrey Blankfort into any Net search engine.

THE ADL HAS GONE FROM REPORTING CRIMES TO *COMMITTING* CRIMES!!

2) ADL STATISTICS ON "ANTI-SEMITISM"? THAT'S A *JOKE*. THE ADL'S HYPERINFLATED 'STATISTICS' INCLUDE ANYONE WHO PUBLICLY CRITICIZES THE STATE OF ISRAEL AND, ESPECIALLY, ZIONISM.

IF YOU SNEEZE IN THE DIRECTION OF A JEW, THE ADL WILL LOG THAT IN THEIR BOOKS AS "AN ANTI-SEMITIC HATE CRIME".

THE HEAD OF THE JEWISH STUDIES DEPARTMENT, LAURIE ZOLITH, AT SAN FRANCISCO STATE UNIVERSITY CLAIMED THAT THE SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA IS ON THE VERGE OF ANOTHER ***HOLOCAUST*** !!!

ZOLITH WAS SAYING THAT THERE WERE VIRTUAL **POGROMS** AGAINST JEWS AT SFS AND BERKELEY!! HAHAHA!!!

ZOLOTH WAS *LITERALLY* SPREADING THIS GARBAGE OF HERS FROM HERE TO ISRAEL! I EVEN READ THIS TRASH IN THE JERUSALEM POST AND HAARETZ!

AND I'M SURE THAT THIS **NUT CASE** LAURIE ZOLITH IS CLOSELY CONNECTED WITH THE ADL. ARE THESE THE STATISTICS FROM THE ADL THAT WE'RE ALL SUPPOSED TO TAKE AS GOSPEL?

WHAT DO **YOU** THINK IS THE CREDIBILITY OF SOMEONE WHO WOULD SAY WHAT ZOLITH SAID?

3) I did not hear the figures (I'm sure they can be obtained with a little research from the applicably state agencies and more time than I have right now), but I did here the report:

CALIFORNIA STATE CRIMINAL-JUSTICE STATISTICS HAVE SHOWN THAT, SINCE 9-11, HATE CRIMES AGAINST **ALL**, SO-CALLED, 'RACIAL' GROUPS -- WHITE, BLACK, ASIAN, LATINO, JEWS -- HAVE STEADILY GONE **DOWN** -- EXCEPT FOR HATE CRIMES AGAINST ARABS/MUSLIMS WHICH, UNSUPRPRISINGLY IN THIS WITCH HUNT AMERICAN ATMOSPHERE, HAVE (PERHAPS SHARPLY) GONE ***UP***.

I'm sure that anyone who has the time, or knows exactly where to find the actual statistics, can find them perhaps from the California state attorney general's office.

OF COURSE THE CYNICAL *POLITICAL* PURPOSE OF THE ADL HYPERINFLATING ANTI-JEWISH "HATE CRIMES" STATISTICS IS TO KEEP AMERICANS ACQUIESCENT IN OUR GOVERNMENT SHOVELING OUT BILLIONS AND BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF DOLLARS YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR IN AID TO ISRAEL. JUST FROM THE U.S. ALONE!

THROUGHOUT THEIR ENTIRE HISTORY ZIONISTS HAVE ALWAYS PLAYED OFF, PLAYED ON, AND PLAYED UP ANTI-SEMITISM IN ORDER TO GAIN THE MAJOR WESTERN IMPERIALIST POWERS SUPPORT FOR A JEWISH-SUPREMACIST STATE.

WHY *DIDN'T* ANY OF THESE SF.INDYMEDIA ARCH-ZIONIST POSTERS (GEHRIG, SCOTTIE, "??", "???", ETC., AND THEIR ILK) *CONDEMN* THEIR LITTLE ZIONIST CHUM "CRITICAL THINKER" -- A.K.A. "ANTI-ANGIE" -- WHEN HE TOLD HER THAT HE WISHED SHE WOULD "GET AIDS AND DIE A SLOW PAINFUL DEATH"!? THAT IS ***WAY*** BEYOND THE PALE!!

THERE MAY BE OTHER THINGS *AS* HORRIBLE TO SAY, BUT *NOTHING* ANYMORE HORRIBLE THAN TO SAY THAT TO SOMEONE. I WOULDN'T EVEN SAY THAT TO A SCUZZY SLIMEY HARDCORE ARCH-ZIONIST LIKE THOSE HERE ON INDYMEDIA.

THAT'S THE HOMOPHOBIC EQUIVALENT OF SOMEONE TELLING A ZIONIST 'I HOPE YOU GET BURNED UP IN AN OVEN AND DIE A SLOW PAINFUL DEATH', OR TELLING SOMEONE 'I HOPE YOU GET TAY-SACH'S DISEASE AND DIE A SLOW PAINFUL DEATH', OR TELLING SOMEONE 'I HOPE YOU GET SICKLE CELL ANEMIA AND DIE A SLOW PAINFUL DEATH', OR 'I HOPE YOU GET OVARIAN CANCER AND DIE A SLOW PAINFUL DEATH', ETC.. IT'S A HORRIBLE RACIST/HOMOPHOBIC/SEXIST SLUR THAT SHOULD ***NOT*** BE TOLERATED -- IN AND OF ITSELF -- ON INDYMEDIA.

YOU NEVER READ ANTI-ZIONISTS POSTING THIS SORT OF STUFF ON INDYMEDIA. BUT YOU *REGULARLY* READ ZIONISTS POSTING THIS KIND OF OBSCENE (WHEN NOT PORNOGRAGPIC) INVECTIVE TRASH. THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR MORE CLEARLY (AT LEAST VERBALLY) REVEALS THE MORAL--AND ULTIMATE--NATURE OF ZIONISTS THAN ANYTHING ELSE, FOR THAT ULTIMATELY IS WHAT ZIONISTS WOULD LIKE THE PALESTINIANS TO DO.

GOOD RIDDANCE -- *AGAIN* -- TO "CRITICAL THINKER" A.K.A. "ANTI-ANGIE" !!!

> "sorry don't have the link handy"
> by hmmmmmn Tuesday September 16, 2003 at
> 07:04 PM

> How convenient.

Inconvenient really, but the data is readily available on the web, if you know where to look. To save the rest of you the trouble of finding it, here is the link. Sorry, its in PDF format, so its hard to reprint here.

http://caag.state.ca.us/cjsc/publications/hatecrimes/hc02/datatables.pdf

Table One lists crimes by bias motivation. Anti-Jewish crimes accounted for 194 offenses, and anti-Islamic offenses accounted for 19 offenses.

The 50% reduction in crimes against Arabs and Muslims touted in the media, on reading the data, seems to be from the 53% reduction of the Anti-Other Ethnicity/National Origin, but my view on that might change if I sit down and read the whole thing.

The data for 2001 is not as well organized, but easier to dowload of you don't have broadband. The corresponding data table is at http://caag.state.ca.us/cjsc/publications/hatecrimes/hc01/tabs/hc0101.PDF

Here we see that for 2001, there were 73 anti-Islamic offenses and 176 anti-Jewish offenses.

Based on this data, anti-Islamic offenses were down 74% while anti-Jewish offenses were up 10%

Getting curious, I checked out the 2000 data. There were 3 anti-Islamic offenses in 2000, so this does represent a MARKED increase from even 2000 to 2002, although the numbers are still quite small. Anti-Jewish offenses counted 240, so between 2000 and 2002, there was an overall 19% drop. We'll see if this drop is eliminated by the time the 2003 data comes out, time will tell.

I can't examine this table right now, but if you are going to say that there were only "3 anti-Islamic offenses in 2000" in the entire state of California -- C'MON..., GIVE ME A BREAK!!

By the way, since you apparently *don't* know, not all Muslims are Arabs (most Muslims are NOT Arabs) and not all Arabs are Muslims (very many in the U.S. are, in fact, Christian and many are secular). Also, many 'anti-Arab' or 'anti-Muslim' hate crimes are, in fact, committed against South Asians and even Blacks (especially African immigrants) who are not Muslims or Arabs, and against some Blacks who are Muslim (how are they classified, anti-Black, anti-Asian, or anti-Muslim?). So just saying "anti-Islamic offenses" is statistically problematic.

I stand by the report I heard: that, in California, hate crimes against ALL so-called "races" has been on a steady decline -- except for that against Arabs/Muslims. (Which may or may not include those people mistaken by racist whites to be Arabs/Muslims.)

AT ANY RATE, I THINK IT IS SAFE TO SAY THAT NEITHER THE SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA, NOR CALIFORNIA, NOR THE UNITED STATES IS "ON THE VERGE OF ANOTHER JEWISH HOLOCAUST" (as SFSU'S JEWISH STUDIES CHAIR LAURIE ZOLOTH PUT IT).

> I can't examine this table right now, but if you are
> going to say that there were only "3 anti-Islamic
> offenses in 2000" in the entire state of California --
> C'MON..., GIVE ME A BREAK!!

This comes from the California Attorney General. Don't argue with me about them. If you think that these figures are wrong, come up with alternative data and present them to the Attorney General.

> By the way, since you apparently *don't* know, not all
> Muslims are Arabs (most Muslims are NOT Arabs)

Where did you get that from?

As I state explicitly, the data, and I do recommend you check out the tables, lists Islamic in its own category, but Arabs are put in the "Other Ethnic" category. Again, rather than foaming at the mouth at me, take it to the Attorney General.

> Also, many 'anti-Arab' or 'anti-Muslim' hate crimes
> are, in fact, committed against South Asians and
> even Blacks (especially African immigrants) who are
> not Muslims or Arabs,

The data is tabulated by the bias motivation. Therefore, an anti-Semetic attack on a black Jew would be listed as anti-Jewish, not as anti-black. If the bias involved was both, then it might be listed under both.

> I stand by the report I heard:

Depends on where you heard it. If you heard it here, it is likely false. What was reported on the mainstream news was that all groups had declines, the largest decline was amongst Arabs and Muslims (not that all Arabs are Muslims, or that all Muslims are Arabs). What was reported in the Jewish press was that yes, all groups exprienced a decline, but that for Jews is was a non-statistically significant decline of one incident. The data from the AG's office actually shows a rise from 2001 to 2002 in anti-Jewish offenses, although a longer term view will be needed to establish a trend.

For those of us who are not blinded by the Islamicist need to be a "victim," seeing hate crimes against Muslims drop percipitously is a very good thing. Paradoxically, much of the drop can likely be attributed by the left's embrace of the Islamicist movement thereby improving the standing of Muslims in the general community. I only wish the same level of hate crime drops could be seen across the board.

> AT ANY RATE, I THINK IT IS SAFE TO SAY THAT
> NEITHER THE SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA, NOR
> CALIFORNIA, NOR THE UNITED STATES IS "ON
> THE VERGE OF ANOTHER JEWISH HOLOCAUST"

Well that is certainly true, and anyone saying that the US is on the verge of a Holocaust is using irresponsible hyperbole that takes away from the very real danger that Jews in the Bay Area are increasingly facing.

I forgot about the anti-Iranian/Persian hate crimes, that involve people who are not Arab or Muslim, and who may also be Christian or secular [most Persians I happen to personally know are either of the latter two], but are attacked by racist whites as "Arabs/Muslims". (How are these crimes classified? "Anti-Islam hate crimes" statistics, in and of itself, would not seem to cover racist attacks, in a post-9/11 environment, against all of them, but in my opinion should.)

By the way, the police often resist -- or even refuse -- classifying anti-Arab/Muslim hates crimes as hate crimes. (Which also causes additional hesitation by Arabs/Muslims to even report hate crimes against themselves or their sons/daughters/spouses and loved ones.) I doubt that the police are as resistant against Jews in this country.

zioist poster: "rather than foaming at the mouth at me..."

Hey, you Zionists are the ones always foamiing at the mouths with your eternal, perpetual, PERSECUTION COMPLEX!! --EVEN IN NEW YORK CITY OR THE BAY AREA!

(Always trying to 'prove' that you're at the bottom of the socio-economic statistics when you're AT THE TOP!! I'M BLACK. WANNA TRADE PLACES?)

your sounding pretty desperate there JA.

Considering that he just got his ass handed to him using actual statistics.

@%<

> (Always trying to 'prove' that you're at the bottom of
> the socio-economic statistics

Where did you get that from? In this country, Jews (or Zionists, if you prefer) do quite well. That is not true, of course, in many other countries. In those parts of the Arab world where Jews have not yet been completely ethnically cleansed, Jews are on the bottom. In other parts of the world, specifically Mexico and Latin America, Jews (or Zionists, if you prefer) are well off economically, but can not hold elected office and face a social "glass ceiling."

> when you're AT THE TOP!!

Been watching Egyptian TV again, have we? Reading "Protocols of the Elders of Zion?"

> I'M BLACK. WANNA TRADE PLACES?

Sure, why not? One unstated oppression for another? Probably would come out even if my motivation to succeed remained intact.

as to the post above regarding the get aids and die comment.. wasn't that directed to "anti anti angie"? we have no reason to believe anti anti angie is angie.
actually it is "anti impersonator" "anti gherig" "EDITORS!: ANTI-ANGIE IS...." "JA" and sometimes "?" amongst other names.

As such I am sure that person can take care of himself.

> (Always trying to 'prove' that you're at the bottom of
> the socio-economic statistics

Where did you get that from? In this country, Jews (or Zionists, if you prefer) do quite well. That is not true, of course, in many other countries. In those parts of the Arab world where Jews have not yet been completely ethnically cleansed, Jews are on the bottom. In other parts of the world, specifically Mexico and Latin America, Jews (or Zionists, if you prefer) are well off economically, but can not hold elected office and face a social "glass ceiling."

> when you're AT THE TOP!!

Been watching Egyptian TV again, have we? Reading "Protocols of the Elders of Zion?"

> I'M BLACK. WANNA TRADE PLACES?

Sure, why not? One unstated oppression for another? Probably would come out even if my motivation to succeed remained intact.

Wow, JA is pretty scary. Dude, seek therapy or something. Seriously, get help.

Jack Ass: "(By the way, a Jewish friend of mine told me that the epithet "kike" was invented by bigotted German Jews against Slavic or Russian Jews based on the frequent endings of the Slavic or Russian Jews' names. "

Your Jewish friend is wrong -- and in more than his choice of friends. The name comes from Ellis Island. Illiterate immigrants usually "signed" their papers with an X; Jewish illiterate immigrants, rather than make the shape of a cross, drew a little circle instead. In Yiddish, a little circle is a kikuleh. Hence "kike."

But, do tell -- could you give us an example of a common Slavic Jewish name that ends in "kike" or something similar enough to make your friends' version plausible? Or are you simply going to run with it, despite its implausibility, because it lets you chortle about some Jews as "racist"?

@%M

You only harp on anti-Jewish epithets, not a word about viciously homophobic or misogynist epithets!

"According to "Our Crowd", by Stephen Birmingham, the term kike was actually coined as a putdown by assimilated American German Jews for their Eastern-European bretheren: "Because many Russian [Jewish] names ended in 'ki', they were called 'kikes'- a German Jewish contribution to the American vernacular. (Germans are also said to have invented the term "Bohunk", referring to Jews from Bohemia.)" Following this explanation, the name kike was deliberately coined to put-down Jews - but only a certain subset of Jews. The name then proceeded to be co-opted by Gentiles and used against all Jews in general."

"The term was originally used by German Jews who had emigrated to the United States earlier in the 19th century to describe their later-arriving Ashkenazi counterparts. In its origins, kike was used by Jews to describe other Jews who they felt were vulgar, and from there it became appropriated as part of the American vocabulary of slang. Kike is still used to this day by Jews to describe other Jews who they feel are low in character. http://www.jtf.org/why.use.term.kike.htm "

Would you like your ass back, gehrig?

I love how this website blames everything on jews or zionists.

I love how the post above made sure to end with "and jews today still call other jews they don't like 'kikes'"

I'm an NYC jew, and I don't know a single jew who actually uses that word EVER, but hey, some anti-israel freak who enjoys singling jews out on the internet tells me we do, so I guess I'm wrong!

Hell, no.. I am not "Anti-anti-Angie". What next?

And what do I see above? Has Mr. Gehrig adopted a new signature trademark?

wtf: " I love how the post above made sure to end with "and jews today still call other jews they don't like 'kikes'" I'm an NYC jew, and I don't know a single jew who actually uses that word EVER, but hey, some anti-israel freak who enjoys singling jews out on the internet tells me we do, so I guess I'm wrong! "

anti-wtf: And to think, part of the information came from a JEWISH website at that! But, hey, I'll let you search.

Jews are just as sane or crazy as anyone else. Just because you found some junk on a website that is a "Jewish website" doesn't necessarily make it any more credible. But I know that the hobby of you people is to just gather as much anti-israel stuff as possible and trumpet it. That's your mode of "peace activism."

wt: "Jews are just as sane or crazy as anyone else. Just because you found some junk on a website that is a "Jewish website" doesn't necessarily make it any more credible."

anti-wtf: OH, *NOW* A ZIONIST JEW SAYS THAT WE'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO TRUST "THE JEWS"!

IMAGINE THAT!

(I wouldn't be surprised if "wtf" is also "Critical Thinker" too, but I'll have to examine that suspicion more later, before I'm conclusive, when I have time to compare his usage. It was *FUN* watching Critical Thinker suiggle and try to deny that he was "anti angie" after I *NAILED* HIM, or rather after he *NAILED* himself -- with his own *BIG* mouth! HAHAHAHAHA!!!

You see, gehrig? You Zionists aren't smart, just dangerous! Hahaha!)

"anti Angie" insisted he's not "Critical Thinker". I see no reason not to believe him.

"anti Angie" told us he lives in Israel. "wtf" tells us he's a Jew living in NYC. Ergo, "wtf" is not "anti Angie". But JA, evidently a severely disturbed wackjob and grand paranoid suspects "wtf" is "anti Angie"...

JA, check into a mental institution and get a goddamn life.

> And to think, part of the information came from a
> JEWISH website at that! But, hey, I'll let you search

I clicked the link, and guess what? It was bogus!

I went to its parent website, and it appears to be the Jewish paranoid wacko mirror for Anti-Jewish/Zionist paranoid wacko sites.

If I were the typical anti-Zionist, I would say the site was set up by Hamas.

Anonymous: " Would you like your ass back, gehrig? "

Here's a hint: the next time you want to chortle over a victory, you've got to win first. I'll take Leo Rosten over a broken link any day, thanks.

Read the essay at this link -- this _working_ link -- and then note in particular this line: "Although any of these explanations could be truthful, only Rosten's (theory "a") has the weight of strong oral history in its favor. "

@%<

YA ZIONIST BOYS KNOW YA AIN'T SMARTER THAN ME!! *WHY* DO YOU KEEP TRYIN' TO TAKE ME ON!?

HA-HA-HA-HA!!!


('Dem Zionists are *so* much *ffuhnnn*!! ...'Dey so funnie!! ...Dey so funnn ta play with!! Hahaha!!!)

Why are you so excited that you, someone who is against Jews having control of Israel, have a profound knowledge of the history and application of "kike?"

What will you impress us with next, how good you are with using the word "n*gger?"

JA the wackjob, who is also anti-gherig and others, said the following:

wtf: "Jews are just as sane or crazy as anyone else. Just because you found some junk on a website that is a "Jewish website" doesn't necessarily make it any more credible."

anti-wtf: OH, *NOW* A ZIONIST JEW SAYS THAT WE'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO TRUST "THE JEWS"!

EDUCATED, SANE RESPONE: No, I have not said that "we're not suppossed to trust "the jews." I didn't say or imply such a thing.

I made a correct statement, that just because AN INDIVIDUAL who may be of religion X has an opinion about religion X does in no way prove that he's right. I am Jewish, and I disagree with him. My being Jewish doesn't mean I'm right or wrong. The fact that I'm sane and educated, while you're a ranting wackjob who spews untrue nonsense in your obsessive and rather unhealthy hatred of your rather insane version of "zionists," is why I'm right.

wtf: "Jews are just as sane or *CRAZY* as anyone else."

ANTI-GEHRIG!!: LIKE *ZIONISTS*, HUH?

wtf: "I made a correct statement, that just because AN INDIVIDUAL who may be of religion X has an opinion about religion X does in no way prove that he's right. ...My being Jewish doesn't mean I'm right..."

ANTI-GEHRIG: LIKE *ZIONISTS*, HUH?

wtf: "The fact that I'm sane and educated..."

ANTI-GEHRIG: BUT YOUR STATEMENT ABOUT YOURSELF COULD BE **WRONG**, RIGHT?

YOU MIGHT BE A TOTAL *WACKJOB*, RIGHT?


HM-HM-HM-HM!!...HA-HA-HA-HA!!!

""anti Angie" insisted he's not "Critical Thinker". I see no reason not to believe him."

ANTI-GEHRIG: WHATEVER HELPS YA HOLD YOUR HANDS UP OVER THE KEYBOARD!

I KNOW IT AIN'T EASSSY FOR YA!!

HA-HA-HA!!

Hey, look. JA thinks he's going to take me to school.

Heh heh.

Here's a clue, Jack Ass: don't confuse five minutes of Google with an
education. Read and weep.

Let's take a look at his links.

Link one presents several theories, without chosing one, starting with
the one I mention. JA doesn't mention that the link also cites the
"circle" theory; instead, he presents the link as if it supports him
alone. That's called misrepresenting a source. In short, lying.

Link two is the very link I posted earlier and JA ignored. Again, the
link mentiones the "circle" theory and specifically points to the reason
why it's given more weight; JA -- natch -- can't be bothered to note
that, and once again distorts the source he cites.

Link three is to an overtly antisemitic website. That's not just my
opinion; it's the opinion of the Indybay editors who less than a week
ago hid a post from the antisemite Windy Wendy Campbell, and
specifically explained it was hidden because of the antisemitic link it
contained to this very site.

Link four is -- as JA is apparently too slow to notice -- merely another
posting of exactly the same FAQ as link one. The poor, poor man, to be
burdened with such a level of reading comprehension; maybe he got
confused because the font was different.

Link five doesn't even address the etymology at all. It is in fact a
parody dictionary, modeled apparently after what I consider the funniest
book of all time, Ambrose Beirce's _The Devil's Dictionary_. That JA
wants to take it seriously tells us either that he's hoping we don't
follow the link, or that he can't tell parody from reality. I'd vote for
the latter, as would, I'd imagine, most people who have seen him use the
post I'm dissecting as a reason to declare he's giving me an
"ass-kicking."

Link six has only one version of the etymology, which matches the story
JA gives although with a cautionary "probably."

Link seven again states a number of possibilities, although naturally
Jack Ass can't be bothered to mention the fact that the first one on
that list is the one that supports me. Instead, he'd rather you think
the "circle" version isn't on the site. Again, JA is misrepresenting a
source AKA lying.

So the final score:

Links that do what JA sez they do: 1, sorta

Links that don't do what JA sez they do: 6

But the real kicker is the way he starts his next post with an
embarrassing confession: "I hadn't actually checked the home pages of
any of the URL's I listed above. "

And, ladies and gentleman, that's what JA considers an "ass-kicking."
Don't let this happen to you, folks -- learn to read. Otherwise you'll
type stuff like this: "Hey, gassy gehrig, YOU'RE ASS MUST BE GETTIN'
MIGHTY SORE FROM THE ASS-KICKIN' I'M GIVIN' IT!!!" And then people will
see your embarrassing confusion about the word "your."

As far as Jack Ass's dee-e-e-eep knowledge of the etymology of other
words -- well, why bother to explain the truth to someone who, like JA,
makes it so clear so routinely that he doesn't give a rat's ass about it?

@%<

And that, folks, is what Jack Ass thinks is a rebuttal.

@%<

This "anti-gherig" person, whose apparent normal nickname is "JA," types lies.

gherig has not said there is "no such thing as jewish racists."

gherig has not said that "all zionists are fair."

gherig has CORRECTLY, REPEATEDLY pointed out that zionism, in general, was and still is based on having a jewish homeland, a need that stemmed from horrible mistreatement of jews in many parts of the world. If we're going to generalize and make blanket statements, it is a lie to say that zionism is based on the notion of "jewish supremecism." It's not true. It was a defensive movement so jews could develop a sliver of land to call their own without worrying about the government ever turning on them like so many governments had in the past. No one is saying "no jew is racist" or "no zionists are racist." Jews can be just as fair or unfair as any other human being.

But that this "anti-gherig," JA, who is a rabid, ranting anti-zionist, has to basically make up lies and then argue down these statements no one is even making, speaks volumes about him. His goal is not honest debate, not a solution, not a balanced perspective, but simply to demonize each and every aspect of zionism and "the zionists" and rant like a crazed madman in need of medication and some mental help.

Zionism wasn't about "supremecism." It was about establishing a very much-needed homeland after hundreds of years of the actions of much of the world proved the need for such a thing. The average jew who believed in zionism and supported it and flocked to israel over the decade after decade of immigration was fleeing persecution and trying to move on to a better place and build up something special. Zionism was and still is a positive notion. But jews have always been singled out, and it's no surprise that when Israel does X wrong, everyone yells that Israel did 20X, 20Y and 20Z wrong.

If Israel does X wrong and people say that Israel did X wrong, there's no argument. The problem is that these anti-Israel types are so dishonest and so hateful that we normal people feel a need to come out and have to waste our time correcting all the nonsense.

nessie said: "What makes Zionism evil is that it is ethnically bases, just like Nazism. Of course there are some good things about Zionism, just like there were good things about Nazism. But at their cores, both are evil and for the exact same reason. Any ideology that puts the well being of one ethnic group ahead of all other ethnic groups is evil. Period."

RESPONSE: Nazism felt one race was superior to another and actively wanted to remove an entire race/religion of people off of the face of the earth. Zionism was a defensive movement that stemmed from horrible mistreatement of jews, and it called simply for a jewish homeland where jews could be safe. The goal of zionism was not to hurt others. The goal of zionism was to save jews from persecution and establish a homeland. The asian race has various homelands (japan, china, etc.) The Indian race has a homeland (India). The black race has an original homeland (Africa) Arabs and muslims have various homelands. Jews in those days NEEDED one place to call their own, thus zionism.

To say that nazism and zionism are similar because they have one thing in common (while throwing away all the other key factors and the motivations behind those factors) is dishonest.

Also, the average jewish person in israel who supports zionism has no intention of rounding up the muslims of the world and exterminating them for being muslims. The average jewish person in israel who supports zionism just wants a safe home.

The average person in germany who supported nazism did support or at least had little problem with the rounding up of the jews of the continetn and exterminating them for being jewish. The average nazi supporter in germany wanted the jews dead and europe conquered.

COmparing the two is absurd and dishonest.

--"The average jewish person in israel who supports zionism just wants a safe home."

On somebody else's land.

It is disingenuous for Zionists to claim their enterprise is so innocent. If it were simply about creating a safe homel for Jews, no one could possibly be against that.

What is omitted in this simplistic explanation is the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their homes to make way for Jews on that land. Every modern Israeli city is built on top of the ruins of a once thriving Palestinian town.

What's more, this is still happening in modern times right now as we speak. Israeli settlers (backed by the Israeli military) are still robbing the Palestinians of their homes, land and water resources in the Occupied Territories to this day. Some say as much as 45% of the land in the Occupied Territories have now been confiscated for use by Jewish settlers.

Israel is an expansionist state just like Nazi Germany was expansionist. How else do you explain the ever-expanding Jewish settlements? Security? I wonder if Nazi Germany claimed the same thing?

There was never any "palestine".

And the "occupied" territories as you so inanely call them, are areas of land acquired by Israel in 1967 after there "peaceful" arab neighbors were beaten back in their attempt at annihilating Israel.

If anything, these Egyptians, Syrians, and Jordanians who were living in these areas are "occupying" Israel.

Typical arab land theivery.

Palestinians lived in Palestine before Israelis kicked them out of their homes through massacres and then stole those homes for themselves. Every single town in Israel is built upon the rubble of Palestinian towns.

Israel was not attacked in 1967 but attacked its neighbors. Zionists are just such prolific liars that they have come to believe in their own lies and they repeat them as often as possible in order to try to make everyone else believe them as well.

DF: Zionism "was and still is based on having a jewish homeland,"

Jews do not have a right to a nation (an "official country" or "a homeland"), "a Jewish state", where other people live. Yes, I do oppose the so-called 'right' of Jews to displace another people, in fact hundreds of thousands of them, in order for Jews to have their own "homeland" in Palestine. Jews no more have a right to their own nation in Palestine than they have a right to displace hundreds of thousands of people and to establish one in the U.S., Britain, or France, etc.

DF: "it is a lie to say that zionism is based on the notion of "jewish supremecism.""

The original founders of Zionism and the state of Israel admitted they were racist, that they thought that Palestinians were inferior, that they wanted to displace them, and that they wanted to establish a Jewish supremacist state (that's what "a Jewish state" explicitly means) where Palestinians lived.

DF: "Eastern European jews (and other jews) realized they weren't safe." ...Zionism "called simply for a jewish homeland where jews could be safe."

Well, then, establishing "a homeland" in someone else's land, Zionism, has been an obvious failure. Zionism has made Israel an impossible, seige mentality, place for Jews to have a normal life; it has thoroughly militarized Israeli society and, thus, has also reinforced patriarchy (secular women especially notice this); it has paramilitarized everyday life; and it has degenerated and corrupted the Israeli government; everybody worries about bombs. I would never want to raise my children in a such a garrison state society, surrounded by people that I've embittered. What normal person (especially one unconditioned to living that way) would really want to live in Israel today?

(As Danny Devito's lawyer character, in the "War of the Roses" movie, asked his acrimonious divorce client, who was carving up his home between himself and his wife, scheming for the best rooms, a home both of them demanded to live in, "All this makes sense to you?")

Jews had a right to flee, especially, mortal danger anywhere they could. Just as someone certainly has a right to flee imminent mortal danger by running into my house. But that person doesn't have a right to single out my house, displace my family, and make a home in my house for their own family.

Jews are far more safe, and indeed thrive, in Europe or North America, anywhere in the economically developed world, today. At any rate, if Israel is supposed to be the Jewish lifeboat, all the Jews in Israel could be obliterated by any madman with one, two, or a few nuclear weapons. Also, Isreal has no more of a defense against high-speed ballistic missiles, or even high-speed cruise missiles, with sophisticated countermeasures than the U.S. does: i.e., none. If Hitler had had nuclear weapons, he would have surely obliterated Israel on his way out. In fact, even with conventional weapons, the Nazis almost made it to Palestine. Isreal would make Jews a nice, concentrated target for an anti-Semitic madman. Israel is hardly a winning strategy for Jewish survival. In fact, "the Jewish diaspora", especially in the U.S., has been a much better one.

DF: (about Britain blocking Jews from going to Palestine)

Yes, Britian did block some Jews from going to Palestine, because Britain realized that an unrestricted mass influx of Jews into Palestine was wrong! Most of the Jewish mass influx to Palestine was after Nazi Germany was unconditionally defeated and all-but completely destroyed! Much of that influx, like the "Exodus" (especially the terrible ship conditions) was manipulated by Zionist leaders for propaganda purposes. The remaining Nazis were either captured, tried, imprisoned or hung, or fled Europe for South America!

No country in the world would accept such an unrestricted mass influx of immigrants, not even Israel! Do you think that Israel itself would, hypothetically, accept hundreds of thousands of Muslim refugees from the former Yugoslavia, or Buddhist refugees from Tibet, or Untouchables refugees from India, especially if they planned on setting up their own country in Israel? Of course not.

DF: "an editor will delete it and call me a "racist" for wanting jews to survive"

Talk about a self-victimology complex! Talk about other people needing mental help! In addition, you''re running around still yelling about the Nazis! They've been long dead as a national party! Such a party is explicitly illegal in Germany. It's explicitly illegal in Canada. It might as well be illegal (if it isn't already) in the U.S. No such party runs for office advocating extermination of Jews in any Western country. Get a grip, man! It seems like you actually need Nazis to justify the continuation of your self-victimology and Zionist ideology!

DF: "Nazism felt one race was superior to another and actively wanted to remove an entire race/religion of people"

That's exactly what the founders of Zionism believed and wanted to do in Palestine. Tragic similarity.

DF: "The goal of zionism was not to hurt others."

Zionism has not only, to say the least, "hurt" other people, it has wantonly and indicriminately killed them by the tens of thousands, destroyed hundreds of thousands of others' meaningful futures, and exiled millions.

DF: "(regarding Japanese, Chinese, Indians, blacks, having a homeland)"

You need to get your head out of those Zionist propaganda books and start thinking rationally. The Japanese, Chinese, Indians, and blacks, didn't move to some distant, intercontinental "homeland" in the 20th century!

They didn't then displace hundreds of thousands of another people based on religion, planning all along to set up a nation there in the middle of the 20th century, where those other hundreds of thousands of displaced people lived. (I'll leave aside the complication and tragedy of Pakistan, a British connivance.) Finally, the Japanese, Chinese, Indians, blacks, and Muslims certainly didn't come from Europe to invade Japan, China, sub-Saharan Africa, or the Middle East and other parts of southern Asia!

DF: "a need that stemmed from horrible mistreatement of jews in many parts of the world."

But it wasn't Palestinians who had "horribly mistreated" Jews! Jews don't have a right to a nation where someone else lives, originally hundreds of thousands and now millions, because of their (Jews) "horrible mistreatment" somewhere else, especially on another continent. Not even horrible suffering entitles one to cause horrible suffering to someone else.

So, yes, I oppose "a Jewish state" in Palestine.

This is the position of any moral person.

But, given that so many Jews are there now (4-5 million Jews aren't all going to leave Palestine anymore than 4-5 million whites were going to leave South Africa), I do not oppose Jews abolishing the Zionist apartheid state and accepting living in a truly multicultural state in Palestine. I am completely not interested in any excuses (Hamas, etc.) you Zionists will give as to why you consider that not possible. Israel is a predicament, or predictable mess, of your own creation (including Hamas).

I just started to type a few lines and look at what I did? This is all wasted on you and other Zionists, but hopefully not on others (even innocent Jews) who may have been conditioned, likewise perhaps even from childhood, to accept such nonsense from exploitative Zionists because Jews were once victims in Europe.

A wackjob above said: "Israel is an expansionist state just like Nazi Germany was expansionist. How else do you explain the ever-expanding Jewish settlements? Security? I wonder if Nazi Germany claimed the same thing?"

EDUCATED, SANE RESPONSE: You have to be joking. Or you're insane. Or both.

Nazi germany wanted to EXTINGUISH A RELIGION AND TAKE OVER A CONTINENT.

Israel wants to BE SAFE AND MAINTAIN A FEW FOOTBALL FIELDS OF LAND that have people who refuse to stop attacking Israel on them.

The discussion on these boards has gotten just plain retarded.

Don: "Nazism felt one race was superior to another and actively wanted to remove an entire race/religion of people"

That's exactly what the founders of Zionism believed and wanted to do in Palestine. Tragic similarity.

Don, the real wackjob. Example: "Israel wants to BE SAFE AND MAINTAIN A FEW FOOTBALL FIELDS OF LAND..."

Don, the founders of Israel always admitted among themselves (and history has diclosed their words) that they had every intention of expanding. I believe it was Ben Gurion himself who said that he would accept a state "the size of a table cloth" (to begin with) for Israel. An obvious intention to expand. Later other Israeli founders bragged about how far they would extend Israel. Their expansion plans had nothing, immediately, to do with security. They were engaged in a subsequent desire for ethnic expansion just like Hitler was.

I notice that you like to use the word "wackjob" a lot as a retort. What bigger wackjob can there be than you who has an eternal, paranoiac, victim hypercomplex. You know, people who always run around constantly ranting and shouting about how absolutely everyone else is always all out to get them all the time, especially when they live in the relative lap of luxury compared to most of the rest of the world, eventually end up in nice padded rooms. Perhaps you need to check into one, with your favorite warm teddy bear.

It's not the discussion on these boards that have gotten retarded (except for the Zionists), just you: "Israel wants to...MAINTAIN A FEW FOOTBALL FIELDS OF LAND..."

...speaking of ranting.

"Don", I noticed above that both you and "wtf" like to use the name-call "wackjob".

You also both used the same, exact response:

Don, wtf: "EDUCATED, SANE RESPONSE: ..."

You both like to claim that you are "sane and educated". You both made the specific point of saying that JA (a point he made rhetorically obvious in response to "anti-angie") is anti-gehrig. But, while I don't hang out in every thread, you are a new name to me. Are you also, like wtf, a NYC Jew? Did you decide to appear, "Don", after JA disposed of wtf using wtf's own logic? Should I bother to go through other threads to check for other strikingly similar language? Are you anyone else, "Don", "wtf"? My, you Zionists are wiley!

Gehrig, do you approve of this guy?

It is not up to Gehrig or any other contributor to approve or not if someone wants to come on here as Don or Sue or Anti Nothing. There are editors here in case you've forgotten.

Also the deliberate and continued gloatiing over "Anti Angie's" demise from the board is irritating and childish. Let it go.

Bev, "JA" didn't get rid of me thanks to his intelligence and facts. JA, I quickly realized, is totally insane. It's hard to argue with someone who is totally insane, and it's a waste of time as well. He's ranting about Israel an "the zionists" as if they are the nazis trying to take over the middle east and wipe an entire religion off the planet. It's ABSURD to even have that kind of disscussion. THis site has turned into a meeting place of crazed israel-hating wackjobs, and those who are patient enough to refute their nonsense.

Whoever you are: "It is not up to Gehrig or any other contributor to approve or not if someone wants to come on here as Don or Sue or Anti Nothing. There are editors here in case you've forgotten. "

My my, aren't we taking things seriously.

Me thinks thou doth protest too much!

Whoever you are: "Also the deliberate and continued gloatiing over "Anti Angie's" demise from the board is irritating and childish. Let it go."

I thought that "anti-angie" was irritating and childish, even in the selection of his name. So there. He got his just desserts.

Don: "Bev, "JA" didn't get rid of me thanks to his intelligence and facts."

Looks that way to me.

Don: "JA, I quickly realized, is totally insane."

You're the one running around ranting about how everyone's out to get you! I'd say a visit to a psychiatrist is definitely and urgently in order for you.

Jews weren't the only persecuted minority in history. They weren't the only minority someone tried to wipe out. In spite of the Zionist pretense. I'd say that the US, in its genocide against the Native Americans, was far more successful than Hitler. In addition, unlike some minorities still are, Jews are generally no longer persecuted. In spite of Zionists pretending that they are. In fact, as Zionists, many of those Jews have become rather brutal persecutors themselves.

Don: "It's hard to argue with someone who is totally insane, and it's a waste of time as well."

It seems to me that it's hard for you to argue with someone who won't put up with your shit, backs it up with facts, and then heartily laughs at you. I rather like his style.

Don: "He's ranting about Israel an "the zionists" as if they are the nazis trying to take over the middle east and wipe an entire religion off the planet. It's ABSURD to even have that kind of disscussion."

Speaking of absurd, does Israel have to be trying to "wipe an entire religion off the planet" (which Hitler could never achieve anyway, since he never had a prayer of defeating the US) in order to engage in Nazi behavior? That's a hyperbolic straw man of yours, a sham logical fallacy, which you are desperately trying to use as though that proves you're right. How is someone supposed to take you seriously when you engage in such transparent ridiculousness?

Don: "THis site has turned into a meeting place of crazed israel-hating wackjobs,"

Right "Don", "wtf", "anti-angie", or whoever else you're pretending to be.

Don: "and those who are patient enough to refute their nonsense."

That, of course, would be you. Right, Saint Don? I think not. You're just crazy enough to think that you can. You Zionists are used to getting your way everywhere else, backed up by money, the US government (which has supported oppression all over the world when it suits itself), the US media networks, physical threats, economic intimidation, and in Palestine the force of arms. When Zionists have to face people in a place they don't control, your sham arguments are easily exposed and defeated. You're easily shown for what you are. You Zionists just aren't used to that, are you?

Okay, enough of you for me.

" In spite of the Zionist pretense. I'd say that the US, in its genocide against the Native Americans, was far more successful than Hitler."

A) Hitler took a few years to almost comitt genocide the americans took hundreds of years.
B) Who is suggesting that the native americans give up the land that they now occupy as a result of being chased off other bits of land?
C) Most of the loss of popluation in the native american sitiation was a result of disease and other indirect effects of the colonists most of the jews died of being gassed to death. On that grounds the europeans would still have vendettas agaisnt the "evil armenians" etc who brought them the black plague.
D) comparing who was MORE massacared is obvious nonsense anyway. It has no implication on the issues at hand.

" In addition, unlike some minorities still are, Jews are generally no longer persecuted."

- Errrrm your using the word "generally" pretty liberally here.

"Speaking of absurd, does Israel have to be trying to "wipe an entire religion off the planet" (which Hitler could never achieve anyway, since he never had a prayer of defeating the US)"

How do you think a cold war with a NAZI europe (with a ongoing war in the hinterlands of russia) would have turned out? .. the scenario is that the allies did not attack when poland was invaded germany prepared itself better developed nuclear weapons and defeated britain before the US was able to support it russia was attacked later and with better planning (etc etc).

I think you would be glowing in the dark today.Besides NAZIism THRASHED western systems in terms of technology advancement etc etc over the period of WWII. On what grounds do you suggest that that would not have continued if it had been able to secure europe?.

"in order to engage in Nazi behavior?"

Do you know what NAZI behaviour is?
some people seem to run around sying nazism is everything to the right of liberal anarchy. actually its a specific philosophy that is not the same as israel.

"the US government (which has supported oppression all over the world when it suits itself)"

It has also opposed it too. more good than bad I would say.

Wow, nessie, are you joking? There's no way you're serious.

>The average jewish person in israel who supports zionism just wants a safe home.
Nessie said: On somebody else’s land, which they are willing to kill to aquire. Lebensraum, it’s called.

EDUCATED RESPONSE: Nessie, jews aren't being handed land or homes. Jews have to buy them. I'm a jew, if I go to israel I have to buy a place to live. You are discriminating against THE PEOPLE by lying and claiming they are all stealing the land.

nessie says: Zionists are to Jews what Nazis are to Germans, an embarassment to an otherwise admirable people.

EDUCATED RESPONSE: That's absurd.

>COmparing the two is absurd and dishonest.

nessie said: Both are ethnic based, aggressive, expansionist, mitilaristic nationalisms. They differ mainly in scale. Zionists are not one bit less bloodthirsty than Nazis. They just have a smaller army, that’s all.

EDUCATED RESPONSE: Again, totally absurd. That you are trying to push this utter bullshit around the world makes me absolutely sick. And now you're obviously taking about jews in israel, not "zionists" elsewhere. Is it a coincidence that you pulled out the old antisemitic "bloodthirsty" thing? That you are claiming zionists and nazis are both equally evil shows you to be really off your fucking rocker.

nessie said: To equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism is as racist as it is disingenuous. Not all Jews are Zionists. Most Zionists aren’t Jews.

EDUCATED RESPONSE: ZIonism is the goal of a jewish nation-state. How come whenever someone points out that being against that is wrong, you TWIST THE TOPIC away from zionism and a jewish state and twist it towards an irrevelant sidenote, that "most zionists" on this earth are not jews. What does that have to do with jews having a jewish state just as muslims have multiple muslim states?

nessie said: Better they should come instead to America.

EDUCATED RESPONSE: Nessie, in the early and mid 1900's, america wasn't opening it's doors to millions of jews. That's why jews flocked wherever they could, eitehr to israel or to other countries or they were stuck in europe where they died. Go turn back the clock to 1800 or 1900 and make it so more countries were opening their doors to jews, or not attacking jews for being jewish, ok?

The main problem here, which is why we will never, ever agree, is that you claim that zionism and nazism are just as evil as each other, and that the "zionist army" has the same goals as the nazi army, they just happen to be smaller. You are so disgusting and offensive when you make such a claim that it actually sickens me and angers me that people like you make these baseless claims and dedicate your lives to spreading them.

nessie says: Zionists are to Jews what Nazis are to Germans, an embarassment to an otherwise admirable people.

RESPONSE: hey nessie, you like to say that "most zionists aren't jews." So what's with the ridiculous analogy above? You are contradicting your own logic (or lack thereof).

FIRST NESSIE SAYS: "Zionists are to Jews what Nazis are to Germans, an embarassment to an otherwise admirable people. "

THEN NESSIE SAYS: "To equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism is as racist as it is disingenuous. Not all Jews are Zionists. Most Zionists aren’t Jews. "

EDUCATED RESPONSE: Which is it, nessie? How come you change who you are referring to when you speak of zionists one minute, and then change it the next?

Being AGAINST ZIONISM means being against the POLITICAL BELIEF IN ISRAEL'S JEWISH NATION-STATE EXISTENCE.

It doesn't matter if "most zionists (outside of israel, you mean?) are christian."

If you're just talking about jewish israelis who support zionism, are you claiming that their main goal all this time was to hurt other people and to exterminate a race and take over a continent? That's 1/3 of the world's jews we're talking about, you think those millions of jews now exist with the sole goal of trying to hurt people because that's fun or self fulfilling or something? YOu're really bonkers, and you're dishonest and a doubletalker.

I'm a normal nyc jew, with tons of friends, and I'm not an activist and not involved with politics. I just follow it closely and have friend and relatives who live in Israel and keep me updated, and I read every media source imaginable (from indymedia to fox news and everything in between).

And, nessie, by making these "zionism = nazism" type of claims and demonizing israel in such excessively baseless fashion, I want you to know that it's people like ME who are your alienating. You aren't defeating the enemy (true racists with straightforward bad intentions). You are not going to help change anything if people like me are made to feel liek YOU are the enemy for spewing stuff identical to what david duke and people who blatantly lie about jews and/or israel do.

I just want you to know that if your true goal is peace for "THE PEOPLE" everywhere (good people, at least), you're doing a lousy job of helping make things better. You have me and someone else addicted to arguing against the nonsense you spew. We're normal reform jews, none of us even care that much about israel except for the reason that 1/3 of the world's jews live there. We don't think jews "need" to live there for god or because of what the bible says. As far as we're concerned, if we could pick israel up and move it to florida or update new york, that would be great.

But, we can't, and it isn't fair to the millions of jews who did immigrate there either before or after the wars that because there was violence in forming the state (there's been violence in the forming of almost every state on earth) they should be expected to all sell their homes and leave, or stay there but be subject to death from the extermist portions of the palestinians.

I want you to know that as you go around trying to convince the world that the zionist jews who live in israel have the same motivations and goals that nazis did that all you're doing is angering people like me and others, not because you're telling the truth or revealing something painful that we just don't want to admit, but because what you're saying simply isn't true.

If this is how you want to live your life, ignoring most issues and focusing a huge portion of your time on telling people that the zionist jews of israel and the nazis have and still have the same motivations and goals, so to be. Youre just going to force people like me to refute you, while the actual truly racist evil-doing bad people on this earth keep right on doing what they're doing.

"Don" or "wtf" or "anti-angie" or whoever he is this time: "EDUCATED RESPONSE: That's absurd."

Oh, that's an "EDUCATED RESPONSE" alright!


(Just because you say it, don't make it so. Your response contradicts your caption, "EDUCATED RESPONSE", to the point of sudden hilarity! The actual response is like the oxymoronic punchline of a set-up joke! Here you are held to a higher analytical standard than your oxymoronic claims. If your response were really so educated, you wouldn't have to be so INSISTENT about it. The fact that you feel the VERY STRONG need to proclaim "EDUCATED RESPONSE" in all CAPS, suggest your own insecurity about your SELF-PROCLAMATION. You're trying to PUSH it, your assertion, rather too hard. Maybe you think you can get away with whatever you want to in Israel, by mere pronouncement, but not here. Here we will actually hold your Zionist and personal claim up to public scrutiny.)

Your attacks are both pointless and off-base. I'm not from Israel. Furthermore, why don't you be specific and tell me what I said that is facutally incorrect. Or, better yet, start suggesting a realistic solution that does not result in all-out war or tons of deaths on one or both sides, and stop with the agenda of just trying to make everyone hate the Jews of Israel as much as possible for ridiculously biased, exaggerated and dishonest reasons.

I want a safe Israel and I want an eventual Palestinian state. But a Palestinian state run by the likes of Arafat or Hamas, in my opinion, will just result in very bad things down the road for one or both sides. A Palestinian state run by moderates who do not lust after the death of Jews or Israel is one that is what's best for the people of both sides.

So what do you want? Palestinians to flood into Israel so the 5% or so that are extremists can then go and murder as many Jews as they want? If not, then what?

"Don": "I'm a normal nyc jew, with tons of friends, and I'm not an activist and not involved with politics."

If you're not an activist or political, then you're not working for peace anyway. So what are you doing here, under various aliases, for such a long time? Go back to partying with your supposed "tons of friends" in the city.

"Don": And, nessie, by making these "zionism = nazism" type of claims and demonizing israel in such excessively baseless fashion, I want you to know that it's people like ME who are your alienating."

Alienating you from doing what? Nothing? Partying?

Rather than spending so much time and energy debating nessie about something you say is a fringe (a David Duke) argument, you could actually be doing something practical. I know! How about actually working to promote a secular democratic state with equal rights for everyone in all of Palestine? Have you tried that, when you're not out partying with your supposed "tons of friends" in NYC? The fact that you feel the need to spend so much time arguing back and forth with nessie about an argument you say is fringe is rather revealing. In light of that, me thinks thou doth protest too much.

"Don": "I just want you to know that if your true goal is peace for "THE PEOPLE" everywhere (good people, at least), you're doing a lousy job of helping make things better." "...You are not going to help change anything"

And what are you doing? Besides spending all your time arguing here with nessie, and partying with your supposed "tons of friends" in NYC, I mean?

"Don": "If this is how you want to live your life, ignoring most issues"

You mean, like you? Living your life here arguing whether zionism= nazism too, and who is otherwise doing nothing?

"Don": "Youre just going to force people like me to refute you"

You haven't refuted anything. You've just made hyperbolic straw man claims about how the Israelis aren't quite as bad as the Nazis. Anything short of absolutely everything that the Nazis did seems to be excusable to you. What a standard!

"Don": "Being AGAINST ZIONISM means being against the POLITICAL BELIEF IN ISRAEL'S JEWISH NATION-STATE EXISTENCE."

YES, "Don", get a CLUE! We (including nessie, angie, A Concerned Zionist, JA and others) are AGAINST the political ideology of Israel's existence defined in terms of one religion and ethnic group, i.e., Jews. Just as we (and you) would be against the US (or NYC) being ideologically and exclusively defined in terms of non-Jewish whites, and with Jews not being able to own land here. This, conversely, when there are millions of non-Jews who live in Palestine and, all together, the number of Palestinians in Palestine and in the exile community is GREATER than the number of Jews who have displaced them.

If you want to do something to promote peace, then stop being a mealymouth apologist for Israel and start working to change it.

I've got an idea! How about a secular democratic state with equal rights for everyone in all of Palestine? Seems to work better everywhere else in the civilized world!

Hey, "Don"! It's after 11 in NYC! I guess it's party time for you!

Here's a thought -- when you obsessive anti-Israel people work to create secular, democratic states in Saudia Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, etc. than it'll be safe for me to work to create a secular, 100% democratic state in Israel.

As long as huge chunks of the world are run by Muslims who incorporate Islam into how they run their states, I support the existence of one tiny sliver of land that is run by Jews who allow 100% of it's citizens to practice whatever religion they want.

The world has been unfair to Jews for 2000 years. When you make it fair, there will be no need for Israel to give special treatement to anyone.

Like CFB points out, CHANGE THE SUBJECT!

No. The topics are directly related to each other. You demand that the one tiny jewish state become the perfect democracy and stop giving any special immigration or other rights to jews. To which I point out that as long as there are 20-something nations right nearby that the majority of which are under islamic law and do not give jews a fair shake at life, there is a need for israel to give jews a boost when it comes to immigration and other things.

You want to isolate israel, place it under a microscope, and pretend that the past actions the world took, and the current state of middle east nations, have no relation to why a jewish state was needed 100 years ago and the manner in which it continues to maintain itself today. ANd that's dishonest. So, stop doing it.

We're all tired of hearing your repetitive perpetual persecution complex, as you're living in the wealthiest city in the wealthiest country as the wealthiest minority on earth, supposedly with "a ton of friends" to go party with in "the city that never sleeps". (What are you doing home by the way on a Saturday night, with the supposed "ton of friends" that you have?) Untouchables, Gypsies, Armenians, Kurds, Chechens, Native Americans, Latin Mestizos, indigenous Latin Americans, blacks, they've all got a right to still feel persecuted or oppressed. You don't. I find your grousing boring and your excuses lame and tedious. My God, what would you do if you were one of those other minorities? I guess then your ranting would be literally deafening! I've got the world's smallest violin and it's playing just for you.

(Besides, I didn't realize that you had such a yearning to move to Saudi Arabia or Iran or Iraq or Egypt or one of those other Arab dictatorships and the like.)

Why don't you start speaking for yourself. Say "I'm tired...".
Or does the group thing you incorporate in your complaint make you feel more morally vindicated?

Gee, pretty revealing comments by Bev there.

Bev says: We're all tired of hearing your repetitive perpetual persecution complex

EDUCATED RESPONSE: 1/3 of us jews were just wiped off of earth merely one lifetime ago. It's not a persecution complex, nor is one lifetime ago ancient history.

Bev says: as you're living in the wealthiest city in the wealthiest country as the wealthiest minority on earth,

EDUCATED RESPONSE: Wow, when did we switch from world antisemitism to making stereotypes about how well jews are doing? What does this have to do with the actual points at hand about life in the middle east?

Bev says: supposedly with "a ton of friends" to go party with in "the city that never sleeps". (What are you doing home by the way on a Saturday night, with the supposed "ton of friends" that you have?)

EDUCATED RESPONSE: You've now repeated that about 12 times in the last few posts. I had to work all weekend on a project, I'm working my ass off right now and occasionally taking breaks to play on the net. You seem really fascinated by the concept of someone havign a lot of friends. Hmm.

Bev says: Untouchables, Gypsies, Armenians, Kurds, Chechens, Native Americans, Latin Mestizos, indigenous Latin Americans, blacks, they've all got a right to still feel persecuted or oppressed.

EDUCATED RESPONSE: YEs, I agree, they do have a right to feel persecuted or oppressed. I never said they didn't. It's interestng, so far you just seem to be angry that Jews are calling out persecution against them and just seem bitter that jews are sticking up for themselves.

Bev says: You don't. I find your grousing boring and your excuses lame and tedious. My God, what would you do if you were one of those other minorities? I guess then your ranting would be literally deafening! I've got the world's smallest violin and it's playing just for you.

EDUCATED RESPONSE: Above text unworthy of response.

Bev, maybe find a healthy outlet for your bitterness and hatred. I'm merely trying to find a fair peaceful solution for both sides. You have blatant jew issues that you might want to seek help addressing in a positive, constructive manner.

Nothing can justify oppressing other people, least of all that someone else did it first.

Yes, oppression is bad. And it isn't benefitting Israel, as Israel is losing tons of money having to continue to do it. When Palestinians are led and controlled by moderates who genuinely want two peaceful states, and not by Arafat with Hamas coming right up behind, it can and should and will end.

that if it were more lucrative, oppression would be OK?

Why can't Jews be citizens of Jordan?

instead of trying to change the subject?

"Don a.k.a. wtf", I don't care about your anti-Semite baiting. (Also, if it matters to you, since YOU were the one bragging about your "ton of friends), like many other people today in Marin County, I spent all day at the beach with my friends.)

Okay everyone, now let's watch "Don a.k.a. wtf a.k.a. whoever else" DODGE this question: "Don a.k.a. wtf", are Jews as a group a persecuted or oppressed minority in the US? Hmmm?

Okay, everyone, let's see if we get a DIRECT answer to a DIRECT question.

I bet we don't!


(Isn't it sad to see?: our prisons filled with Jews, and Jews always being beaten and shot by the police, and Jews living on all those poor reservations, or in the ghettoes and barrios, and all those Jews having to live in South Central LA or in 'bombed out' NE coast and MW high-rise projects, lined up at the check cashing places every pay day, having to use emergency rooms for 'a health care plan', discriminated against in jobs and especially housing, most only get overseas in the military, all those Jews who are forced to go to substandard run-down schools where they will never have a chance to go to a 4-year college, even under-represented on college faculties for those who do get a chance, rare to see in a corporate or media or big city newspaper board room, still turn heads in the higher professions. Man, Jewish-Americans have it rough! Don't they?)

No, pointing out that Israel oesn't benefit financially from the occupation was to point out that they aren't doing it because ithelps them economically (one of the roots of all evils), it helps them because it makes it harder for people who refuse to stop killing them to kill them.

Someone intelligent asked: Why can't Jews be citizens of Jordan?

Someone who just wants to single out the jews answered with: "Why don't you answer the question, instead of trying to change the subject?"

EDUCATED RESPONSE: See, isn't this interesting? It's all about singling out the jews of israel. These people claim to be fair, claim to want peace and fairness for everyone, yet they rant about the jews of israel not being fair to arabs, and when you ask why they aren't ALSO ranting about arabs not being fair to the jews, they say "you're changing the subject. we're talking about jews." The fact is, jews have been ALMOST entirely cleansed out of 20 arab countries, and they've now all flocked to the jewish state. And all these activists are now singling out the jewish state for not being a perfect democracy and giving an advantage to jews in some cases, yet when you point out that such a thing is necessary because of the discrimination in the arab countries right nearby, they accuse you of changing the subject.

What are you saying, that we could excuse the crimes of Zionists, solely because they are Jews?

Are Jews somehow less accountable for their actions than non-Jews?

"What are you saying, that we could excuse the crimes of Zionists, solely because they are Jews?"

No but you should see the crimes Israel carries out as the actions of a government not as the actions of "Zionists". You dont blame all rednecks for the actions of George Bush, so dont blame all Jews for the actions of the Israeli government. Saying Zionst instead of Jews doesnt really make a huge difference. You could blame all honkeys for the actions of George Bush and then say that honkeys are by definition bad white people, but would that really change what you are saying. The problems with Israel are the occupation, racism against Palestinians, extrajudicial assasinations etc... its not a problem with "Zionism" its a problem with the actions of a government.

Hmm has got it.
His point should be muled over repeatedly in order not to mislead the sheep.

"I blame anybody who supports the state of Israel, literally or figuratively, actively or passively, Jew and non Jew alike. I even blame myself. I'm an American taxpayer. Some of that blood is on my hands, too. "

So since you see all US taxpayers including yourself as being blame worthy does that make you a "Zionist"? In theory its easy to say complicity means guilt but many people have to struggle to get by and complicity is just survival. If I were rich and moved all my money to offshore accounts and didnt pay any taxes would I be one of the few Americans not guilty for Israel's actions?

Asigning guilt to a population is never a good thing. If you go around saying that Israelis are evil people for the actions of Sharon the only effect you will have is to make Israelis support Sharon more. Israel needs to change and that change will have to come first and foremost from the Israeli public. Talking about ZIonists and how all Israelis are guilty isnt a good way to win over the Israeli public. Most people in Israel support a two state solution but have irrational fears preventing them from supporting leaders who will allow things to go in that direction..

Its strange how there is all of this talk of historical guilt vis a vis Israel. How do people absolutely hate people in Israel for the actions of their parents when so much other bad stuff was happening during WWII. Are all Japanese people guilty for the actions of Tojo? Are all Americans guilty for living on land stolen from Native Americans? Are Native Americans guilty for killing off most of the large mammals in the Americas?

The Serbs claimed the muslims in Bosnia were guilty for the actions of the Turks hundreds of years ago. The Hindu fundamentalists in India think the Muslims are guilty for the actions of the Moghuls. And of course, everyone hates the Mongolians and you cant go anywhere without hearing people blaming this or that problem on the Mongolian invasions (which included killing off most of the population of what is now Gaza).

The occupation exists and needs to be dealt with. Racism in Israel against Arab Israelis exists and needs to be dealt with...
I fail to see how talk of ZIonists, and historical guilt gets anyone anywhere.

historical wrongs need to be addressed in order to avoid repeating the mischief of other generations.
We are at a crossroads, are we going to repeat past mistakes or acknowledge them and then give reparations over them?
The interests of the people and the leaders are contradictory (financially & otherwise).
The people are innundated with fears that serve the master race( politicians- elected or not) and out of fear place their hopes for a safer immediate future on their laps/
the leaders are not equipped with emotional maturity to plant a seed of peace, it is up to us the People!

historical wrongs need to be addressed in order to avoid repeating the mischief of other generations.
We are at a crossroads, are we going to repeat past mistakes or acknowledge them and then give reparations over them?
The interests of the people and the leaders are contradictory (financially & otherwise).
The people are innundated with fears that serve the master race( politicians- elected or not) and out of fear place their hopes for a safer immediate future on their laps/
the leaders are not equipped with emotional maturity to plant a seed of peace, it is up to us the People!

To boring and tedious: "Don a.k.a. wtf"
by Bev Sunday September 21, 2003 at 07:08 PM.

"Don/wtf", I posted my question at 7:08, you posted at 7:40, so I KNOW you saw my question.

Now when I PREDICTED that I would not get a direct answer, I didn't realize that you would DODGE my question ENTIRELY!

What's the matter? Is it a question you CAN'T answer?:

"Don a.k.a. wtf", I don't care about your anti-Semite baiting. (Also, if it matters to you, since YOU were the one bragging about your "ton of friends), like many other people today in Marin County, I spent all day at the beach with my friends.)

Okay everyone, now let's watch "Don a.k.a. wtf a.k.a. whoever else" DODGE this question: "Don a.k.a. wtf", are Jews as a group a persecuted or oppressed minority in the US? Hmmm?

Okay, everyone, let's see if we get a DIRECT answer to a DIRECT question.

I bet we don't!


(Isn't it sad to see?: our prisons filled with Jews, and Jews always being beaten and shot by the police, and Jews living on all those poor reservations, or in the ghettoes and barrios, and all those Jews having to live in South Central LA or in 'bombed out' NE coast and MW high-rise projects, lined up at the check cashing places every pay day, having to use emergency rooms for 'a health care plan', discriminated against in jobs and especially housing, most only get overseas in the military, all those Jews who are forced to go to substandard run-down schools where they will never have a chance to go to a 4-year college, even under-represented on college faculties for those who do get a chance, rare to see in a corporate or media or big city newspaper board room, still turn heads in the higher professions. Man, Jewish-Americans have it rough! Don't they?)

No, those awful things you just mentioned are about BLACK PEOPLE, not JEWS, and Jews are not responsible for such terrible conditions that befall on the the Blacks

"Don/wtf: "Someone who just wants to single out the jews answered with: "Why don't you answer the question, instead of trying to change the subject?" "

"EVASIVE RESPONSE: See, isn't this interesting? It's all about singling out the jews of israel. These people claim to be fair, claim to want peace and fairness for everyone, yet they rant about the jews of israel not being fair to arabs [PALESTINIANS!], and when you ask why they aren't ALSO ranting about arabs not being fair to the jews."


--In the process "Don/wtf" is even going to even racistly still deny Palestinians' existence. But let anyone try to deny Western Jewish existence as a people (as directly descended from the original Hebrews) and we'll hear the BIG "A-S word"! (By the way, no "Don/wtf", no one is claiming that Jews are unfair to "the Arabs". No one has claimed that Israel is oppressing Egyptians, Saudis, etc.) Ironically, first really conservative Zionists like "Don/wtf" still say that there is no such thing as a Palestinian, but then they claim that the Palestinians' home is in Jordan and that Jordan is 'the Palestinian state'! Can't have it both ways "Don/wtf".

Don't forget to answer my question in my above (repeated) post, "Don/wtf".

Why can't Jews be citizens of Jordan?

Hey Bev, you must feel good about blatantly lying and making straw men. Don/wtf in that post didn't deny the existence of the Palestinians (actually, Arabs insisting on the plagiarized name "Palestinians"), he rather referred to them as Arabs. There's nothing wrong with that.
Furthermore, who's discussing now Egyptians or Saudis for Christ's sake? Don/wtf wasn't talking about Arabs in countries outside Israel and the disputed territories and YOU KNOW IT.
I also don't recall Don/wtf ever claiming on this site there is no such thing as a Palestinian.

Bev, I don't doubt you had much fun "debating" like JA does, but it won't bolster your honesty. I thought you were here in pursuit of intellectual honesty and truth.

It's amazing how the rabid anti-israel people here twist my words and make things up.

Someone above said: "What are you saying, that we could excuse the crimes of Zionists, solely because they are Jews? Are Jews somehow less accountable for their actions than non-Jews?"

MY RESPONSE: No, you thick-headed fool, I have not said that, and I will never say that, and I never even came remotely close to implying that. I have merely called for a fair analysis of the situation, for standards of criticism to be applied across the board, and for people to not merely place israel under a microscope while intentionally ignoring DIRECTLY RELEVANT actions otehrs take that are DIRECTLY RELATED to what israel does.

TO BEV, who has blatant anti-jew issues that are revealed in each sentence it types.

Bev asks: "Okay everyone, now let's watch "Don a.k.a. wtf a.k.a. whoever else" DODGE this question: "Don a.k.a. wtf", are Jews as a group a persecuted or oppressed minority in the US? Hmmm?"

RESPONSE: These days? Nope. Jews have some trouble in some small towns and some dumbass parts of the country, but generally they're perfectly fine.

What was the big deal about answering your stupid question?

I haven't even spoken of the jews in the united states. I was talking about jews in israel and the middle east. Are you hallucinating or something, bev?

Look at Bev ranting about the jews about. It's pretty sick. Bev has made a total mockery of itself.

And in a later post, Bev the ranting antisemite decides to make up a lie --

Bev's lie above: "In the process "Don/wtf" is even going to even racistly still deny Palestinians' existence."

MY RESPONSE: No I haven't. You've made that up, as is plain to see by simply reading the posts.

TO "DON/WTF", who has blatant anti-Palestinian and perpetual persecution complex issues that are revealed in each sentence it types.

Bev asks: "Okay everyone, now let's watch "Don a.k.a. wtf a.k.a. whoever else" DODGE this question: "Don a.k.a. wtf", are Jews as a group a persecuted or oppressed minority in the US? Hmmm?"

FINALLY A RESPONSE: "These days? Nope. Jews have some trouble in some small towns and some dumbass parts of the country, but generally they're PERFECTLY FINE [my caps]."

Do all the rest of you Zionists hear THAT?

As a minority group, Jews are, according to "Don/wtf" (obviously Jewish), doing just "PERFECTLY FINE" in the US! In addition, as a group they are doing just fine in North America, in general, and in Western Europe. Jews are basically thriving in the West, unlike other minorities. I am also told by my Jewish friends that, outside of the poverty that most people endure in Russia, some of the biggest beneficiaries of industry privitization in Russia are Jews!

"Don/wtf": "What was the big deal about answering your stupid question?"

To make a FOOL out of you.

Because I'm TIRED of hearing you and other Zionists, in your constant Zionist/Israel apologism, here go on and on and on ad nauseum about how 'the poor beleagured Jews' need "a(n ideologically) Jewish state" that mirrors the basic Nazi ideology of a racial-supremacist state, and reflects and PROJECTS it onto ANOTHER people (the Palestinians) on ANOTHER continent, and violates the very principles of multicultual secular democracy that Jews, no less than anyone in the West, demand everywhere else. Then you think that you can hide all this by calling others who oppose a racist Jewish state (just as we oppose ANY racial-supremacist state) "anti-Semites".

"Don/wtf": "1/3 of us jews were just wiped off of earth merely one lifetime ago"

A whole lot more than "1/3" of the Native Americans "were just wiped off earth" and in the last span of two or three long lifespans ago. In numerous cases, three long lifetimes ago many blacks were still born into slavery, from which they as an oppressed minority. We're talking about people who are alive today whose grandparents were born into slavery or whose tribes were wiped out. These minorities as a group have not recovered the way Jews have quite well done so.

"Don/wtf": "nor is one lifetime ago ancient history."

But Zionists base Israel's existence entirely on "ancient history", even claims of "God's" ancient promise! How ridiculous can you get!

Here you go!:

"Don/wtf": "The average jewish person in israel who supports zionism just wants a safe home."

Looks like they have one in ALL the states of the United States, all the provinces of Canada, all the countries of Western Europe, Australia, South Africa, and any relatively affluent country. How many "safe homes" do you need without oppressing another people? What about a safe home for the Palestinians? Their own home in Palestine!

Then you try to justify this by trying to CHANGE THE SUBJECT to giving a list of Arab countries that you speciously say that we must first concentrate on and turn into democracies, ignoring the fact that the same US that keeps Israel in business keeps those Arab dictatorships in business (whenever its, usually, useful to the US). The US supports Israel with billions upon billions of AMERICAN tax dollars, as well as the additional billions we lately give (bribe) to countries like Egypt's semi-dictatorship, in Israel's political behalf, to not be Israel's only credible military threat, which alone gives us a right to 'single Israel out', as you constantly put it. We don't need your "Johnny did it too" excuse! We, the American taxpayers, are not paying "Johnny's" fat allowance!

Here you go with your LUNATIC "insane rant"!:

"Don/wtf": "A Palestinian state run by moderates who do not lust after the death of Jews[! THE HEIGHT OF YOUR INSANITY AND HYPERBOLIC PERSECUTION COMPLEX!]... "an editor will delete it and call me a "racist" for wanting jews to survive"[MORE HYPERBOLIC INSANITY]... It's ALL about singling out the jews... Here's a thought -- when you obsessive anti-Israel people work to create secular, democratic states in Saudia Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, etc. than it'll be safe for me to work to create a secular, 100% democratic state in Israel. As long as huge chunks of the world are run by Muslims who incorporate Islam into how they run their states, I support the existence of one tiny sliver of land. The world has been unfair to Jews for 2000 years. When you make it fair, there will be no need for Israel to give special treatement to anyone."

THERE! The evidence is in!

As was mentioned before, Jews are NOT the only people who have faced centuries of discrimination, or oppression, or persecution, and even genocide, and Jews have now fared much much better than those other racial groups that have endured the same and even WORSE!

Then you yammer on and on about Arab states like you have some big yearning to go live in some usually either poor and dictatorial (or rich and dictatorial) Arab country, many from which the Zionists coerced Jews to leave (even placing bombs in Arab Jewish neighborhoods), just like Zionists often coerced Jews from other countries (even Jewish refugees who wanted to reestablish their lives in Western Europe after the TOTAL ignominious defeat of the Nazis and the military devastation of Germany).

"Don/wtf": 'Look at me ranting about the Arabs about. It's pretty sick. I have made a total mockery of myself.'

Finally, you come to this thread complaining about Zionism being compared to Nazism (a comparison many anti-Zionist Jews themselves have made, including Holocaust survivors or their families), but what are you doing to improve, or even help improve, anything?:

"Don/wtf": "I'm not an activist and not involved with politics"

Here's my tiniest violin and its playing just for you, AGAIN. Just REREAD all your posts above (under "Don", "wtf", or whatever names you are posing under) and you'll know why.

I have to stop before I throw up!

If people were critical of zionists because many of them are Jew, why wouldn't the criticize winona ryder because she happens to be a Jew?

btw, even if saks fifth avenue was an antisemitic establishment, it would still be justified in going after winona ryder since she was hurting their profits!

That, however, is not the case. We are critical of the Zionists for the same reason we are critical of the Nazis. We oppose ethnic based, aggressive, expansionist militarism.

Bev seems to want to rant at me that jews in the united states are doing well. I don't recall claiming otherwise, or even brining that up, but bev not only seems intent on ranting about that to me but seems angry about it as well. What do you guys think, does Bev need medication, or mental therapy, or both?

"Don/wtf" said: "What was the big deal about answering your stupid question?"

Bev said: To make a FOOL out of you.

EDUCATED RESPONSE: You haven't made a fool out of anyone. You are ranting like a crazed lunatic about nothing in particular.

Bev ranted: Because I'm TIRED of hearing you and other Zionists, in your constant Zionist/Israel apologism, here go on and on and on ad nauseum about how 'the poor beleagured Jews' need "a(n ideologically) Jewish state"

EDUCATED RESPONSE: Bev, you don't seem to get it. IT isn't about jews needing a jewish state now. In the 1800's and 1900's, the majority of jews were in europe and the middle east, and were being horribly oppressed, and a jewish state WAS needed. Jews feared a safe placed was needed way back in the 1800's, and the 1900's certainly proved those fears to be correct. That has nothing to do with how jews, in general, are doing in the united states in present day.

Bev ranted: that mirrors the basic Nazi ideology of a racial-supremacist state

EDUCATED RESPONSE: That's false. IT isn't about "superiority." It's about a people having a homeland.

Bev ranted: violates the very principles of multicultual secular democracy that Jews, no less than anyone in the West, demand everywhere else.

EDUCATED RESPONSE: Bev, you are amazingly ignorant. You jump all over the place from one time to another, from one place to another. How jews are doing today in manhattan, vs. how jews are doing today in bad neighborhoods, vs. how jews in europe were doing in 1890, vs. the treatement jews have received in the middle east over the last 1000 years, vs the manner in which israel must defend itself and why it came to exist at all are RELATED YET SEPARATE issues, and by just scrambling everything together in ignorant fashion you are just making a mockery of yourself.

Bev ranted: Then you think that you can hide all this by calling others who oppose a racist Jewish state (just as we oppose ANY racial-supremacist state) "anti-Semites".

EDUCATED RESPONSE: No, bev. criticising israeli politics isn't antisemitic. However, criticising every single aspect of israel, from its formation to its behavior today, exaggerating every wrong israel does, ignoring the rights israel does, while putting israel under a microscope and intentionally not applying the same microscope in a proportionate level to other nations right nearby whose very actions are directly related to how israel must maintain its very existence, is usually the work of an antisemite.

If you have a special microscope for hte jewish state that you intentionally avoid applying to the muslim states, you're being antisemitic.

We "zionists," as you like to call us normal people who seek peace for everyone without destroying israel in the process, are merely demanding FAIR AND BALANCED CRITICISM. If that upsets you, it's your own problem.

Could someone please hide the neoNazi posts to this site. I shouldnt have to show that this stuff is just neoNazi shit but here is at least some proof:

The top ten richest Americans

1. Gates, William H III
2. Buffett, Warren Edward
3. Allen, Paul Gardner
4. Walton, Helen R
5. Walton, S Robson
6. Walton, John T
7. Walton, Jim C
8. Walton, Alice L
9. Ellison, Lawrence Joseph
10. Ballmer, Steven Anthony

Worlds 100 Richest People

number in ranking / age / net worth / nationality

1 William H Gates III 47 40.7 United States
2 Warren E Buffett 72 30.5 United States
3 Karl & Theo Albrecht -- 25.6 Germany
4 Paul G Allen 50 20.1 United States
5 Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Alsaud 46 17.7 Saudi Arabia
6 Lawrence J Ellison 58 16.6 United States
7 Alice L Walton 54 16.5 United States
7 Helen R Walton 83 16.5 United States
7 Jim C Walton 55 16.5 United States
7 John T Walton 57 16.5 United States
7 S Robson Walton 59 16.5 United States
12 Liliane Bettencourt 80 14.5 France
13 Kenneth Thomson & family 79 14.0 Canada
14 Ingvar Kamprad 76 13.0 Sweden
15 Birgit Rausing & family -- 12.9 Sweden
16 Steven A Ballmer 46 11.1 United States
17 John W Kluge 88 10.5 United States
18 Barbara Cox Anthony 79 10.3 United States
18 Anne Cox Chambers 83 10.3 United States
18 Amancio Ortega 67 10.3 Spain
21 Forrest E Mars Jr 71 10.0 United States
21 Jacqueline Mars 64 10.0 United States
21 John F Mars 66 10.0 United States
24 Michael Dell 38 9.8 United States
25 Abigail Johnson 41 8.2 United States
26 Mikhail B Khodorkovsky 39 8.0 Russia
26 Sumner M Redstone 79 8.0 United States
28 Li Ka-shing 74 7.8 Hong Kong
29 Donald E Newhouse 73 7.7 United States
29 Samuel I Newhouse Jr 75 7.7 United States
29 Hans Rausing 76 7.7 Sweden
32 Robert A Pritzker 76 7.6 United States
32 Thomas J Pritzker 52 7.6 United States
34 Gerald Cavendish Grosvenor 51 7.5 United Kingdom
35 Carlos Slim Helu 63 7.4 Mexico
36 Samuel C Johnson 74 7.3 United States
37 Nobutada Saji & family 57 7.1 Japan
38 George Soros 72 7.0 United States
39 Khaled, Hayat, Hutham, Lubna & Mary Olayan -- 6.9 Saudi Arabia
40 Bernard Arnault 54 6.7 France
40 Stefan Persson 55 6.7 Sweden
42 Walter, Thomas & Raymond Kwok -- 6.6 Hong Kong
43 Galen Weston & family 62 6.2 Canada
44 H Ty Warner 59 6.0 United States
45 Silvio Berlusconi 66 5.9 Italy
45 Charles Ergen 50 5.9 United States
45 Azim Premji 57 5.9 India
48 Carl Icahn 67 5.8 United States
49 Roman A Abramovich 36 5.7 Russia
49 Curt Engelhorn 76 5.7 Germany
49 Friedrich K Flick Jr 76 5.7 Germany
52 Leonardo Del Vecchio 67 5.6 Italy
52 August von Finck 72 5.6 Germany
54 Keith R Murdoch 72 5.5 United States
54 Rudolf August Oetker & family 86 5.5 Germany
54 Michael Otto & family 59 5.5 Germany
57 Susanne Klatten 41 5.3 Germany
58 Nasser Al-Kharafi & family 59 5.1 Kuwait
59 Pierre Landolt & family 55 5.0 Switzerland
59 Pierre M Omidyar 35 5.0 United States
59 Yasuo Takei & family 73 5.0 Japan
62 Philip F Anschutz 63 4.9 United States
63 Michael R Bloomberg 60 4.8 United States
64 Ernesto Bertarelli 37 4.7 Switzerland
65 Luciano Benetton & family 67 4.6 Italy
65 Marvin H Davis 77 4.6 United States
67 Alain & Gerard Wertheimer -- 4.5 France
68 Mikhail M Fridman 38 4.3 Russia
68 Lorenzo A Mendoza & family 37 4.3 Venezuela
68 Stefan Quandt 37 4.3 Germany
71 Philip H Knight 65 4.2 United States
72 Eitaro Itoyama 60 4.1 Japan
72 Fukuzo Iwasaki 78 4.1 Japan
72 Edward C Johnson III 72 4.1 United States
72 Karl-Heinz Kipp 79 4.1 Germany
72 Reinhard Mohn & family 81 4.1 Germany
72 Akira Mori 66 4.1 Japan
78 Donald L Bren 70 4.0 United States
78 Gustavo Cisneros & family 57 4.0 Venezuela
78 Charles D Koch 67 4.0 United States
78 David H Koch 62 4.0 United States
82 Eli Broad 69 3.9 United States
83 Rafik Al-Hariri & family 59 3.8 Lebanon
83 David Geffen 60 3.8 United States
83 Erivan Haub & family 70 3.8 Germany
83 Maria -Elisabeth & Georg Schaeffler -- 3.8 Germany
83 Dieter, Monika & Stefan von Holtzbrinck -- 3.8 Germany
88 Charlene L de Carvalho 48 3.7 Netherlands
88 Lee Shau Kee 75 3.7 Hong Kong
88 Henry Ross Perot 72 3.7 United States
88 Tsai Wan Lin 78 3.7 Taiwan
92 Antonia Johnson 59 3.6 Sweden
92 Joseph & Moise Safra -- 3.6 Brazil
94 Michele Ferrero 76 3.5 Italy
94 James, Arthur & John Irving -- 3.5 Canada
94 William Wrigley Jr 39 3.5 United States
97 Jeronimo Arango 77 3.4 Mexico
97 Kirk Kerkorian 85 3.4 United States
97 Robert Kuok 80 3.4 Malaysia
97 Johanna Quandt 75 3.4 Germany

http://www.forbes.com/2003/02/26/billionaireland.html---

I dont see many Jewish people on that list and nobody from Israel. There are, on the other hand, quite a few nonIsraeli Middle Eastern rulers and businessmen.I really doubt that even a majority on that list are proIsrael.

That list is obviously not complete.

I remember looking at that list before and one name that stood out was Chaim Saban. This is an Israeli billionaire worth something like $7 billion who gave a great deal of money to democratic candidates and who now lives in the US.

The fact that his name was removed from the list (it was on their when it was first released), is suspicious to say the least...

Don: "What do you guys think, does Bev need medication, or mental therapy, or both?"

No, Don. I'd say that Bev is right. You're the one who seems to need the medication and the therapy. Both.

those who use the term zionism do so since it is less antisemite. They make an honest effort to avoid saying Judaism in order to avoid implicating all
of the innocent jews in ones accusation.
zionism is no more Jewish than communism while zionism is shamelessly anti Communist.

Yeah, I'm not an antisemite, not a racist and I don't want innocent people to die, and I dont' care about scapegoating people simply due to their religion. Call the men in white coats to come pick me up!

The very introduction to this disgusting thread is gross in of itself.

The scumbag who started this thread says at the top, "We've heard quite enough about "Anti-Semitism". Now, what about Anti-Gentilism? Why is Anti-Semitism any worse than any other racism?"

EDUCATED RESPONSE 1: When antisemitism disappears, you won't hear as much about it anymore.

EDUCATED RESPONSE 2: Generally I don't see people claiming that anti-semitism is worse than any other racism. However, jews make sure to loudly fight against anti-semitism because just ONE LIFETIME AGO a third of all jews on earth were removed from existence, and it WAS KIND OF DRAMATIC FOR US AND NOT SUCH A HAPPY THING, YA KNOW?

This entire thread is really disgusting.

Most of those who substitute 'Zionism' and ' Zionists' for 'Judaism' and 'Jews' do not concern themselves with honesty and are also being anti-Semitic. They just think to themselves they're being more clever or sophisticated. Most Zionist Jews are innocent too, like it or not.

If you want to deceive yourself then keep on telling yourself the ridiculous statement "zionism is no more Jewish than communism". Remember also that Zionism is indeed "shamelessly anti Communist" BECAUSE Communism has been unabashedly anti-Zionist since Zionism's inception.

Actually, for decades now, Israel has wonderful kibbutz communities which are as communist as it gets. In fact, israel encourages all jews and non-jews alike to travel to israel to experience life on a kibbutz, where everyoen works together to equally share the resources.

Israel has less of them right now because those communities tended to be outside of cities in areas that aren't as safe anymore due to terrorist attacks.

But yeah, as "pro-israel" correctly pointed out, the whole usage of "the zionists" in the manner that many suspicious "activists" use it reaks of closet antisemitism. They make every antisemitic claim that you can find on any neo-nazi site, but then change the word "jew" to "zionist" - and then amke sure to tell you that "most zionists on earth aren't jewish" to cover up their bullshit.

They rant about "the zionists" in israel as if jews just killed 6 million people, but then quickly lash out at you when you correctly deny it.

Those wonderful kibbutz communities are actually **socialist**. If you want to observe a community the most Communist it ever gets, visit North Korea; or, you should have visited a 'Kolhoz' or a 'Sovhoz' in the erstwhile USSR. They types of communities beat the Kibbutzim for Communist essense and nature.

Many or most Kibbutzim have already abandoned their socialist lifestyle in part or completely. This has happened either because they haven't been able to adapt to the post modernist economic challenges, or due to poor long term management, or even reckless financial jockeying in Israel's stock exchange institute. It's fair to say Socialism in Israel has failed to a large degree. In fact, very few Kibbutzim (those which were in the Jordan Valley) saw their demise due to security reasons.

It is not "less" anti-Semitic. It is not anti-Semitic at all. Anti-Semites oppose an ethnic group. Anti-Zionists oppose a political ideology. An ethnic group and a political ideology are not just different things, they are different classes of things. You’re not talking apples and oranges, your talking vegetables and minerals. If you can't tell an ethnic group from a political ideology, you really need to brush up of the basics of critical thinking.

Start here:

http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

http://www.mhhe.com/socscience/comm/lucas/olc/164.htm

http://www.kcmetro.cc.mo.us/longview/ctac/corenotes.htm

Some anti-Zionists are anti-Semitic. That makes neither all anti-Zionists, nor anti-Zionism itself, be anti-Semitic. You're either being intentionally misleading to imply so, or you are committing a basic logical fallacy called a "catagory error."

bunk: "Some anti-Zionists are anti-Semitic. That makes neither all anti-Zionists, nor anti-Zionism itself, be anti-Semitic."

But it does make it impossible to say, as many here do, that antisemitism and anti-Zionism are completely unrelated and disjoint. And that means that's it's wrong to presume that the charge of "antisemitism" is _automatically, a priori_ in error.

This is a presumption made again and again on this board. It was made when I accused Brian of being an antisemite, and lo, Brian _did_ end up tipping his hand so badly that he's since been disinvited from the board. The same presumption is made now every time Windy Wendy lays down more of her oh-by-coincidence-that's-a-nazi-website references and I call her bluff. I don't call Windy Wendy an antisemite because she's a nutzo anti-Zionist; I call Windy Wendy an antisemite because she's a nutzo antisemite trying to _pass_ for anti-Zionist.

I don't claim, and have never claimed, that all anti-Zionism on this board is inherently antisemitic. There are those who are anti-Zionist purely for political/ethical reasons. Some of the less able debaters here frequently tell me I have said the opposite.

@%<

"Don/wtf": "This entire thread is really disgusting."

Translation: "I'm not getting my political, 'WOE is me, the eternal victim, no one else has ever been oppressed, persecuted, or gone through genocide - I'm the most and ONLY important victim in the history of the world - no one else matters nearly as much' - way! Half the people in this thread are not buying my ethnic self-centered, ethnically-self-all-important bullshit! The other Zionists here are almost just as psychotic as I am! Worst of all, Bev is shredding all my arguments and making me look like the fool that I am! Oh WOE is me! All eyes on me! All I can try to do in response is lash out at people! But not even boy-crying-wolf "anti-Semtism" works here! Oh WOE is me! I LOVE playing the eternal, 'no one else is like me', victim! Other people face prejudice and WORSE, but I demand that ABSOLUTELY ALL and ANY anti-Semitism go away before I stop crying like a banshee! (Secretly I hope it doesn't. The accusation is too useful!)"

gehrig is a zionazi who believes that Jews should have a racist apartheid country that does not allow the Palestinians equal rights in Palestine-Israel. He also doesn't support the Palestinian refugees' inalienable right to return to their ancestral homeland of Palestine-Israel, which IS their right according to UN Resolutions, International Law and world opinion.
Gehrig is an Islamaphobic, anti-Gentile racist of the first degree. Why the editors at Indymedia even tolerate his racist, Zionist posts is very suspect.

Windy Wendy: "Gehrig is an Islamaphobic, anti-Gentile racist yammity yammity yammity."

Sure thing, Windy Wendy, you're not an antisemite, sure thing. Of course, in several threads now you've expressed your unfounded opinion "that half of the world's billionaires are Jews." When the actual data was posted, you turned out to be quite wrong.

But tell you what, Windy Wendy. I'd love to see you try to document that I'm "anti-Gentile." Note that my attacking you doesn't make me anti-Gentile; it only makes me anti-shrieky-crackpot.

And while you're at it, met any Japhethites lately? _Do_ be so kind as to explain to the good readers of this site what a Japhethite is, and your opinion on its relation to the Jewish question.

@%<

"Chaim Saban has been removed from the list. Who else was removed?
by Forbes list is beginning to omit some names Monday September 22, 2003 at 11:29 PM
That list is obviously not complete.
I remember looking at that list before and one name that stood out was Chaim Saban. This is an Israeli billionaire worth something like $7 billion who gave a great deal of money to democratic candidates and who now lives in the US.
"

"Insolvent German media group KirchMedia said it signed off the sale of its vast film library to U.S. billionaire Haim Saban--ranked No. 236 on the Forbes World's Richest People list--in the secondary phase of a two-billion-euro ($2.1 billion) deal."
http://www.forbes.com/2003/03/27/0327facesam.html

Note that Saban is 236th on the list of the worlds richest people:
"236 Haim Saban 58 1.7 United States"
http://www.forbes.com/lists/

Its amusing how far neoNazis will go to confim their conspiracies in their own heads. "Look Look, there is at least one Jewish person in the top 300 richest people in the world!!"

just to put some of the statistics about the worlds rulling class into perspective:

Among the 500 richest people in the world there are 4 from Brazil:
"92 Joseph & Moise Safra -- 3.6 Brazil
132 Aloysio de Andrade Faria 82 2.7 Brazil
348 Julio Bozano 67 1.2 Brazil
427 Lily Safra -- 1.0 Brazil
"
10 from Saudi Arabia
"
5 Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Alsaud 46 17.7 Saudi Arabia
39 Khaled, Hayat, Hutham, Lubna & Mary Olayan -- 6.9 Saudi Arabia
113 Mohammed Jameel & family -- 3.0 Saudi Arabia
118 Abdulaziz Bin Hamad Algosaibi & family 69 2.9 Saudi Arabia
123 Khalid Bin Mahfouz & family 56 2.8 Saudi Arabia
162 Saleh Kamel 61 2.3 Saudi Arabia
192 Sulaiman Bin Abdul Al Rajhi 83 2.1 Saudi Arabia
278 Mohammad H Al Amoudi 57 1.5 Saudi Arabia
427 Saleh bin Abdul Aziz Al Rajhi 91 1.0 Saudi Arabia
"

11 from Hong Kong:
"
28 Li Ka-shing 74 7.8 Hong Kong
42 Walter, Thomas & Raymond Kwok -- 6.6 Hong Kong
88 Lee Shau Kee 75 3.7 Hong Kong
101 Michael Kadoorie & family 62 3.3 Hong Kong
123 Nina Wang -- 2.8 Hong Kong
137 Patrick Wang 52 2.6 Hong Kong
236 Cheng Yu-tung 77 1.7 Hong Kong
303 Stanley Ho 81 1.4 Hong Kong
329 Chen Din Hwa 80 1.3 Hong Kong
427 Henry Fok 79 1.0 Hong Kong
427 Richard Li 36 1.0 Hong Kong
"
and only three from Israel:
"158 Shari Arison 45 2.4 Israel
256 Sammy and Yuli Ofer -- 1.6 Israel
427 Morris Kahn 73 1.0 Israel
"

Do you hear people talking about the secret society of evil Brazilians lurking behind the scenes and helping determine world events? What about the Saudis? There are most likely more Muslims than Jews in among the world's billionares yet Americans are always going off about Zionist and Jewish conspiracies? Its not even like you can use Israel's size as an excuse, how big is Hong Kong compared to Israel yet there are far more billionaries in Hong Kong than in Israel? And who are Americans to talk when a majority of the worlds richest people are Americans and not particularly proIsrael Americans either.

I guess the American conspiracy theories about Jews/Zionists are nothing new. In 1918 here was the list of richest Americans:

Name Estimated Fortune 2002 Dollars* Yearly Income Chief Source
John D. Rockefeller $1,200,000,000 $13.14 billion $60 million Oil
Henry Clay Frick 225,000,000 2.46 billion 11.25 million Coke, Steel
Andrew Carnegie 200,000,000 2.2 billion 10 million Steel
George F. Baker 150,000,000 1.64 billion 7.5 million Banking
William Rockefeller 150,000,000 1.64 billion 7.5 million Oil, Railroads
Edward S. Harkness 125,000,000 1.37 billion 6.25 million Oil
J. Ogden Armour 125,000,000 1.37 billion 6.25 million Packing
Henry Ford 100,000,000 1.09 billion 5 million Automobiles
William K. Vanderbilt 100,000,000 1.09 billion 5 million Railroads
Edward Howland Robinson Green 100,000,000 1.09 billion 5 million Banking
Mrs. Edward H. Harriman 80,000,000 876 million 4 million Railroads
Vincent Astor 75,000,000 821 million 3.75 million Real Estate
James Stillman 70,000,000 767 million 3.5 million Cotton, Banking
Thomas F. Ryan 70,000,000 767 million 3.5 million Traction, Tobacco
http://www.forbes.com/2002/09/27/0927richest_15.html

Henry Ford was printing up leaflets about how Zionists were the real rulling class (including mass distributions of the Protocols of the Elders of Zions), while he and other antiSemetic Americans controlled most of the world's wealth.

Can you imagine *that*!? A Zionist accusing someone *ELSE* of being racist!!

>%@

It's amazing that Bev continues to just make things up.

Bev said: Translation: "I'm not getting my political, 'WOE is me, the eternal victim, no one else has ever been oppressed, persecuted, or gone through genocide -

EDUCATED RESPONSE: That isn't what's being said, Bev. Why do you insist on just making things up? ARe you so rabidly anti-jews AND anti-israel that you must insist on lying here in front of everyone?

Bev sarcasticlly said: I'm the most and ONLY important victim in the history of the world - no one else matters nearly as much' - way!

EDUCATED RESPONSE: Don/wtf, gherig and the others haven't said that. Why are you making this up?

Bev said: Half the people in this thread are not buying my ethnic self-centered, ethnically-self-all-important bullshit! The other Zionists here are almost just as psychotic as I am! Worst of all, Bev is shredding all my arguments and making me look like the fool that I am!

EDUCATED RESPNSE: When have you shreded any arguments? So far all you appear to do is complain that jews whine too much about antisemitism, and make stupid, baseless sarcastic personal attacks.

Bev, congrats on making a mockery of yourself.

Bev, you're a crazed ranting fucking lunatic. Seek medication you crazed fuck.

Telling the truth shouldn't be called an ad-hom.

Read Bev's ranting text above. He/she just keeps hurling accusations and me and others and accuses us of saying things that we haven't even come remotely close to saying.

Anyway, in the news:

Sept 23 - The campus Hillel at Rutgers University in New Jersey was vandalized this past Saturday morning.

The attack took place one day after a member of a pro-Palestinian group hit Minister-without-Portfolio Natan Sharansky in the face with a cream pie. Sharansky was visiting to address students on Judaism's role in promoting democracy, peace, and justice. The group, New Jersey Solidarity, recently canceled an upcoming anti-Israel conference after members failed to file the necessary paperwork with the university.

The attack, denounced as "cowardice" by Rutgers officials, included swastikas spray-painted on the Hillel building and a fraternity with mostly Jewish membership.
Previous

Telling the truth shouldn't be called an ad-hom.

Read Bev's ranting text above. He/she just keeps hurling accusations and me and others and accuses us of saying things that we haven't even come remotely close to saying.

Anyway, in the news, nessie, this is the type of stuff you and your "peace" activists are inspiring:

Sept 23 - The campus Hillel at Rutgers University in New Jersey was vandalized this past Saturday morning.

The attack took place one day after a member of a pro-Palestinian group hit Minister-without-Portfolio Natan Sharansky in the face with a cream pie. Sharansky was visiting to address students on Judaism's role in promoting democracy, peace, and justice. The group, New Jersey Solidarity, recently canceled an upcoming anti-Israel conference after members failed to file the necessary paperwork with the university.

The attack, denounced as "cowardice" by Rutgers officials, included swastikas spray-painted on the Hillel building and a fraternity with mostly Jewish membership.

"Don/wtf" EDUCATED RESPONSE: "Bev, you're a crazed ranting fucking lunatic."

Oh, deep.

Sorry, you Zionists, but the Palestine Conference at Rutgers is ON, yes ON! Going on as planned. Sorry to be the fly in your ointment. So sorry to burst your little bubble. tee hee

Gehrig continually shows he how racist he is just by always trying to defend Zionism. He doesn't have to do anymore than that. And he shows how he is anti-gentile by always being so absolutely, resolutely, completely, positively _SURE_ that anyone who is anti-Zionism is also anti-semitic and how he writes as if calling someone _anti-Semitic_ is OMIGOD! the most horrendous insult in the _entire world_!!! As if we haven't heard that word enough by now to know that it's used as a tool to try to keep people from criticizing Zionism and Israel, which surprise! is largely supported by Jews! Somehow he thinks we're not supposed to notice this?

"Don/wtf": "Anyway, in the news, nessie, this is the type of stuff you and your "peace" activists are inspiring:"

"Sept 23 - The campus Hillel at Rutgers University in New Jersey was vandalized this past Saturday morning. ...The attack, denounced as "cowardice" by Rutgers officials, included swastikas spray-painted on the Hillel building and a fraternity with mostly Jewish membership."

Since you have NO evidence, "Don/wtf", how do we know that YOU didn't do it, "Don/wtf", to smear peace activists?

I remember when the Berkeley Hillel was slightly vandalized and the Zionists, again with NO evidence, tried to blame it on anti-Zionist groups. Those Zionists sure are QUICK to "determine" who did what. Mighty quick. Hmmm. These were the same Zionists who said that Jewish students were afraid to walk across campus to classes, quaking in fear for their lives.

"The attack took place one day after a member of a pro-Palestinian group hit Minister-without-Portfolio Natan Sharansky in the face with a cream pie."

GOOD!

It couldn't have happened to a 'nicer' person. How appropriate that Sharansky was pied right in the face by a JEWISH student. (It was a kosher pie too!) Sharansky should have gotten TWO pies!

"Sharansky was visiting to address students on Judaism's role in promoting democracy, peace, and justice."

Peace? Yeah, Sharansky like his cohort Sharon is 'A Man of Peace' (cough, cough). Sharansky is, just like Sharon, a Likud ultra-right-winger. He's even opposed to the internationally-backed "Roadmap to Peace", which is really just another stalling plan favoring Israel anyway, but even that is too much for him. He approved the highly provocative construction of more than 800 illegal settlement units in the West Bank, in violation of Israel's obligations under the Roadmap. He's known to be a sexist pig. Sharansky opposed every peace attempt from the 1993 Oslo Accords to the present. He was quoted as saying, "I support the existence of Jewish settlement in Hebron (which means he's especially a fanatic!) and in all the territories" and that "the Jewish people must refuse to divide Jerusalem", referring to any and all peace plans that would place Arab East Jerusalem under Palestinian control. Sharansky is to the right of Atilla the Hun (right there with Sharon). He's also another Zioinist, like "Don/wtf", running around all the time crying "anti-Semitism" at every critic of Israel or Zionism.

Sharansky is just another example of the, once, Jewish persecuted becoming the, now, Zionist persecutor!

Organizations protesting Sharansky's appearance included New Jersey Anti-Racist Action, New Jersey Solidarity, and two JEWISH organizations: Central Jersey Jews Against the Occupation and Neturei Karta.

Here's a priceless quote from Sharansky: “It seems like a contradiction to make a connection between human rights abuses and Israel,” he said. “Israel is a champion of human rights”. Well, that really says it all!

http://www.thehoya.com/news/091903/news5.cfm

Sharansky also recently complained that he cannot demolish a Palestinian house anymore without it becoming an international event.

http://www.jewishpeacefellowship.org/MiddleEast.htm

This is what Sharansky said about the JEWISH student Abe (in typical "Don/wtf" fashion): "If he were alive during the holocaust he probably would have been happily shoving fellow Jews into ovens." You see, Sharansky is just as LOONEY as "Don/wtf".

http://commonsensewonder.com/printindex.shtml

In other news, the heavy-handed, intimidation and threats, Zio-Nazi-like attempts to ban the Palestine Conference at Rutgers (like the ZioNazis tried at University of Michigan) should be the BEST publicity for a successful conference and attendance ever! (These Zionists do not believe in freedom of speech - I mean, for everyone else.) The Palestinian conference at the University of Michigan was a resounding public attendance success, thanks to all the heavy-handed attention (threats and intimidation) brought to it by the thuggish Zio-Nazis against it too! They thought that they could harass and intimidate the university into banning it. Pass on my thanks to all your crazy RANTING Zionist friends, "Don/wtf"!

Bev, I first briefly inclined to post a logical point-to-point rebuttal of your anti-Semitic laden "anti-Zionist" diatribe, but reneged on that inclination pretty early into reading your vitriolic lunacy.

Take your meds now.

If you want to be a debate coach worth your salt and not just some wannabe as you currently are, you must utilize some brain power before you blurt out your standard issue "an ad hominem is not a rebuttal".

As the real debate coach here I determine that your performance is almost abysmal. Please go and attend a debate coaching seminar and refrain from posting for the meantime.
Break a leg (this means "good luck" in case you didn't know).

Windy Wendy: "Gehrig continually shows he how racist he is just by always trying to defend Zionism. He doesn't have to do anymore than that."

Welcome to the wonderful world of Windy Wendy. In Windywendywonderland, to declare that the state of Israel has a right to exist is _really_ to declare that you're an anti-gentile racist Islamophobe Jewish supremacist and probably an Ashkenazi Japthethite.

Notice, however, when I asked Windy Wendy to quote _any post I have made_ that contains anti-gentile rhetoric _anything close_ the the antisemitic venom she spits, she's unable to do it, and instead has to (a) wave her hands around a lot and (b) say, "so what's so bad about being an antisemite anyway?"

Windy Wendy: "And he shows how he is anti-gentile by always being so absolutely, resolutely, completely, positively _SURE_ that anyone who is anti-Zionism is also anti-semitic and how he writes as if calling someone _anti-Semitic_ is OMIGOD! the most horrendous insult in the _entire world_!!! "

Hey, Windy Wendy, you should get a refund on that reading comprehension program. I have said _ad nauseum_ on this site that, no, not all anti-Zionists are antisemites. I say it a lot, for two reasons: (a) it's true, and (b) idiots like you who can't be bothered to find out what I'm really saying keep telling me I say something different.

Once again, slowly: no, not all anti-Zionists are antisemites, Windy Wendy.

But you are.

Why dontcha want to tell the fine folks of this newsgroup about your Japhethite racial theory on the origins of the Ashkenazi Jews, Windy Wendy?

@%<

bevie: "Bev, I first briefly inclined to post a logical point-to-point rebuttal of your anti-Semitic laden "anti-Zionist" diatribe, but reneged on that inclination pretty early into reading your vitriolic lunacy."

TRANSLATION: "I first briefly inclined to post a logical point-to-point rebuttal of your anti-Semitic laden "anti-Zionist" diatribe...BUT, I WASN'T ABLE TO. So, as we Zionists usually do, I automatically resorted to either our stock profanity retorts, our stock Pavlovian reflex of our 'boy-crying-wolf' in calling everyone else "anti-Semitic" (somehow we still think that will work on someone as strong as Bev despite all evidence to the contrary; we're obviously slow learners), or our stock telling someone to "take their meds". (We Zionists are on so much heavy medication to cope with being shredded by anti-Zionists here, like Bev, that we just assume that everyone else has as many psychoactive pills as we need.) We can't stand getting out butts kicked by a woman."

I guess it was an "anti-Semitic" JEWISH student that pied Sharansky right in his racist Zionist face. Right?

- EARLIER I SAID: Bev, I first briefly inclined to post a logical point-to-point rebuttal of your anti-Semitic laden "anti-Zionist" diatribe, but reneged on that inclination pretty early into reading your vitriolic lunacy.

- BEV'S DISTORTION (PRETENDING SHE'S ME): "I first briefly inclined to post a logical point-to-point rebuttal of your anti-Semitic laden "anti-Zionist" diatribe...BUT, I WASN'T ABLE TO. So, as we Zionists usually do, I automatically resorted to either our stock profanity retorts, our stock Pavlovian reflex of our 'boy-crying-wolf' in calling everyone else "anti-Semitic" (somehow we still think that will work on someone as strong as Bev despite all evidence to the contrary; we're obviously slow learners), or our stock telling someone to "take their meds". (We Zionists are on so much heavy medication to cope with being shredded by anti-Zionists here, like Bev, that we just assume that everyone else has as many psychoactive pills as we need.) We can't stand getting out butts kicked by a woman."

MY RESPONSE: I was very able to but didn't want to. You're lunacy has progressed exponentialy over the last few weeks , and in the meantime Don has entered the fray, and I've seen he crushes your nutty arguments with such ease that I've decided to lower my profile here. You can expect his rebuttal soon enough.
The reason "Zionists" lash out at you so often, using even profanity is that most of you "anti-Zionists" aren't debating honestly and fairly and lack intellectual honesty. You also project your sweeping generalizations about Zionists onto anyone who disagrees with any of your opinions. When someone correctly proves one of you is being anti-Semitic - something which happens more often than not when Israel or Jews or Zionists are criticized - you ignore the proof and proceed to scream that the Jews and Zionists always accuse label you as anti-Semites.
We (as in people outside the fanatic "anti-Zionist" lunatic fringe camp) urge you (and Angie as well, to name an additional example) to seek mental treatment and/or take your meds because you're too often and by a sheer magnitude off the deep end. I've never taken any psychoactive medication and it's fair to bet the other "Zionists" on this site haven't either.
Are you telling me I'm not a woman? I guess it's because you can't stand the notion a woman dares to stand up to your crap.
If you're strong then strength has no meaning. Your strength is probably the same as that of a spider's web...

Bev, you're so laughable that you should find a job as a stooge in a wandering circus.

PS to debate coach: yeah, I know ad hominems are not rebuttals. Please tell me something else I don't know yet.

He is the absolute Master of Obfuscation. Bravo! He is the epitomine of the Zionist mentality, never addressing the core issue of equal rights for Palestinians, but instead trying to smear people with predictable name-calling and bringing up some obscure accusations that he has manufactured to draw people into pointless and off-topic debate. Indeed, to be called an "anti-semite" by someone like him can truly be interpreted as a big compliment, as it shows that he considers you a threat to Zionism and the Zionist racist, apartheid state of Israel. Bravo, to all the Anti-Zionists, JA, Bev, A concerned Zionist, Don, Angie, and most especially to Windy Wendy!

I'll go along with part of your conclusion:

Bravo to the "Zionists" like Don and all others

Boo-hoo to all "anti-Zionists" like JA, Bev, 'A concerned Zionist', Angie, and most especially to Windy Wendy (who seems to have just flattered herself now...)!

Windy Wendy: "He is the absolute Master of Obfuscation. Bravo! He is the epitomine of yammity yammity yammity Bravo, to all the Anti-Zionists, JA, Bev, A concerned Zionist, Don, Angie, and most especially to Windy Wendy! "

Really, you oughta have that personality dissociation disorder looked at, Windy Wendy.

Maybe you're going to claim that you've got multiple personality disorder, and it was some _other_ personality that took over and made you drop that comment about Japhethites, which is why you're so completely unable to address it again?

@%<

on and on and on about anything except the issue at hand: US support for racist, anti-democratic apartheid Israel and it's ethnic cleansing campaign against the indigenous non-Jews. He doesn't want to touch that one. You see, he ONLY cares about Jews!

Windy Wendy: "on and on and on about yammity yammity yammity he ONLY cares about Jews!"

Nonsense, Windy Wendy. You accused me of being anti-Gentile. I am demonstrating, a little more with each post, how worthless that accusation is, and how bigotted the accuser is.

Posted any URLs to neo-Nazi sites lately? It's been more than a week since the last one, hasn't it?

@%<

but you see, Israel is a Jewish state, a state where all the Jews have a right to move to and establish their own destiny......the Arabs, or christians in Israel are minorities, protected nontheless, but if they dont like living with those horrible zionists, they can get up and move somewhere anyuwhere they want, 22 arab countries to choose from.... heck, let them come to the US...

Don's/wtf's UNEDUCATED RESPONSE: "I was very able to [rebut your points]..."

'SURRRE'...

Don/wtf: ' ...but couldn't, intelligently. That's why I replied in the only way I could, with our usual Zionist ever so creative stock retorts of either schoolyard level profanities, really witty retorts like take your meds (we Zionists here had to all get together and stay up all night to think up that clever biting retort), the totally automatic reflex of calling others lunatic (we're what psychology calls self-projecting) and, the one we save for last (or is that the schoolyard string of juvenile profanities?), scattergun, blindly blurting out "anti-Semite" at everyone in sight (even when the peace activist we're condemning is JEWISH)! I even brought Angie's name into this - and she hasn't even posted here since Sept 15th! It's all just a brainless childish Zionist temper tantrum and tactic.I know that no intelligent person could possibly take it seriously, and doesn't. '

Don's/wtf's LUNATIC RESPONSE: "I've never taken any psychoactive medication..."

'SURRRE'...

(In the meantime, here, let me get my foot out of your butt.)

In the interests of accuracy and to let you know I read your stuff (and everyone else's in this thread) you will note I dropped in on 17 September 2003 to confirm I was not "Anti-anti-Angie". (Hell, this "anti" bit is getting tedious, isn't it?)

I can certainly understand, however, why you would miss that brief comment. (Mine are usually a bit longer; however, we say what we must and move on!)

Keep up the good fight and all that.

Happy to hear from you and know you are busy, busy.

With respect to the resolution by the Berkeley council re an investigation into the death of Rachel Corrie, I was following that in another thread. It's great that it was brought about by "people power"; however, will it have any bearing on the actions, if any, of the US government?

Will it be enough to bring about a "real" investigation into the circumstances surrounding her death? Perhaps you could expand on that in one of the Rachel Corrie threads. I have no idea how much power, if any, the Berkeley Council has. I do know, however, that our Council meetings are televised weekly.

Yes, I read about "Anti-Angie" being sent on his merry way. I didn't see the post that caused his departure, however, as it was during the day of the foot surgery and all of that nasty stuff.

I'm going to run along and listen to BBC World News. The Hutton Inquiry has been of GREAT interest to me. Can't wait for Lord Hutton's findings!!

E-MAILS (!!) my friend, have caused the UK government and its various departments grief during this Inquiry. There's no end to them!

Angie

I see someone has used your name under a rather lengthy, tedious spiel saying very little, if anything. How anyone who is familiar with your stuff could believe you wrote this is curious indeed.

Wouldn't it be nice, if just for once, gehrig the gasbag would express his desire to see the non-Jewish Palestinians have equal rights in their ancestral homeland of Israel-Palestine and that all Palestinian refugees must be allowed their inalienable right to return to their ancestral homeland as according to UN Resolutions, International Law and world opinion? He never does however. What a complete racist!

Wouldn't it be nice, if just for once, gehrig the gasbag would express his desire to see the non-Jewish Palestinians have equal rights in their ancestral homeland of Israel-Palestine and that all Palestinian refugees must be allowed their inalienable right to return to their ancestral homeland as according to UN Resolutions, International Law and world opinion? He never does however. What a complete racist!

Jews have lived in the Middle East continuously for thousands of years. After the seventh century Arab invasions and forced conversions of pagans to Islam, Jews continued to maintain their culture, language, and religion. In the Islamic Middle East, Jews were officially treated as an inferior class (called dhimmis) and were at times -- into the twentieth century -- subjected to apartheid-like conditions, massacre, and expulsion.

Zionism is based on the recognition that Jews are a people who share a common origin, religion, culture, and history, and that the Jewish people, like other peoples, have a right to a homeland. Zionists believe the need for a Jewish homeland is crucial in order to end the historical persecution perpetuated at the whim of the non-Jewish majority in all parts of the world, including the Middle East.

European Jews began to immigrate to Palestine in the late 1880s, largely to escape pogroms and discrimination in Europe, where Jews were not viewed as native. Jews from the Middle East also began immigrating to Palestine at this time, particularly from Iran and Yemen, both to escape discrimination and to fulfill their Zionist vision. In the late 1880s, there were fewer than 350,000 Arabs living in the entire region called Palestine, which then included the area now called Jordan. Arabs immigrated en masse to the desolate region to take advantage of the economic development created by the Zionists. Arabs constituted 37 percent of the total immigration to pre-state Israel. In leftist terminology, the descendants of Arabs who immigrated in pursuit of jobs and economic opportunity are “indigenous,” while the descendants of Jewish immigrants who fled discrimination, violence, and genocide are “colonizers.”

After World War I, Britain gained control over the much of the Middle East, which had been ruled by the Ottoman Empire. From this position, Britain severely restricted immigration of the Jews to Palestine, dooming hundreds of thousands of European Jews to Nazi death camps. In addition, Britain captured tens of thousands of Jews trying to “illegally” immigrate to Palestine, and imprisoned them in Cyprus. An average of 16,000 Jews successfully immigrated to Palestine each year from 1919 to 1941. By contrast, Britain allowed Arabs to immigrate virtually unregulated to the region.

After World War II ended, Britain continued to deny Holocaust survivors refuge in Palestine. Between August 1945 and May 1948, when Israel declared independence, Britain caught 65 “illegal” immigrant ships carrying 69,878 survivors of the Holocaust. Britain interned approximately 50,000 survivors in new concentration camps. Of these, 28,000 were still imprisoned when Israel declared independence. After May 1948, Britain refused to release 9,000 “able bodied” men so they wouldn’t be able to fight on behalf of Israel during the Arab-Israel War.

In 1921, Britain severed nearly four-fifths of Palestine to create Transjordan, and barred Jews from settling there. Britain then placed restrictions on Jewish land purchases in the one fifth of the land that remained of Palestine. By 1949, the British had allotted 87,000 acres of cultivable land to Arabs and only 4,200 to Jews.

The British established the notion of an independent Palestine for the first time under a League of Nations mandate, and delineated its boundaries. The proposed boundaries of the two states, Israel and Palestine, were based on demographics, and took an almost checkerboard appearance. Arabs were the majority in western Palestine as a whole (1.2 million Arabs and 600,000 Jews), but the Jews were a majority in the area allotted to them by the resolution. Jews were also the majority in Jerusalem, which was to be under international control. In 1948, the year Israel declared independence, Jews privately owned 8.6 percent of the land, and Arabs privately owned 6.8 percent. The rest had been state-owned under Ottoman and British rule. Most of the Jewish-owned land had been purchased from wealthy Arabs, among them the well-known Nashashibi, el-Husseini, and el-Alami families.

During the Arab-Israel war of 1948-49, Britain supplied the attacking Arab states with weapons, and technical and strategic advice. Britain continued to use the small military enclave it still kept in Haifa to prevent the landing of Jewish immigrants. Britain also maintained a tight naval blockade aimed at preventing the arrival of weapons for the Jews. The U.S. participated in the arms embargo to the area, but became increasingly critical of Britain’s extension of aid to Arab armies, and eventually proposed to investigate whether the funds the U.S. advanced to Britain, and the equipment loaned under the European Recovery Programme, were being used to assist the Arab invasion of Israel. This threat made Britain somewhat more conciliatory toward Israel’s existence, in order to avoid what one British official wrote in a memo would be an “embarrassing” investigation.

Anti-Zionists claim that Jews expelled the Palestinians from their “native” land in 1948. However, they have never produced any evidence of a Zionist “master plan” to expel Arabs. In fact, the new Jewish state immediately recognized the Arab population as an official ethnic and religious minority. The Jewish leadership had made detailed plans for the establishment of an Arabic-language press, the improvement of health in the Arab sector, the incorporation of Arab officials in the government, and the integration of Arabs within the police and the ministry of education. In 1947, David Ben-Gurion, who would soon become prime minister, told his Labor Party, “In our state there will be non-Jews as well -- and all of them will be equal citizens; equal in everything without any exception; that is: the state will be their state as well.” Today -- unique to Israel and in contrast to the most advanced democracies -- the Jewish state gives the languages and religions of its various minorities official status. Thus, Arabic is an official language alongside Hebrew, and Muslim and Christian holidays are considered official holidays.

Arab leaders rejected the UN resolution creating a Palestinian state alongside a Jewish one. Haj Amin al-Husseini, the former mufti of Jerusalem and then head of the Arab Higher Committee (AHC), told an Egyptian newspaper that “we would rather die than accept minority rights” in a prospective Jewish state. The secretary-general of the Arab League, Abd al-Rahman Azzam, declared to a Zionist peace delegation, “For us there is only one test, the test of strength ... We will try to rout you. I am not sure we will succeed, but we will try. We succeeded in expelling the Crusaders, but lost Spain and Persia, and may lose Palestine. But it is too late for a peaceable solution.” The Arab leaders aimed not for an undivided Palestinian state, but to parcel out and rule the region as their own.

The wealthiest Arabs, approximately 30,000, were the first to flee their homes in response to these threats of war. Many less affluent Arabs fled in panic as war got closer to their doorstep. Others were ordered to leave their homes by Arab leaders and military forces. There were instances in which Israeli forces expelled Arabs, but this accounted for a small fraction -- 5 to 10 percent -- of the total exodus. These expulsions were not part of a premeditated plan, but the result of ad-hoc military decisions during war.

There have been many admissions in the Arab world to its “encouragement” of Arab residents to flee. The Jordanian paper Filastin wrote in 1949, “The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies.” Likewise, refugee Habib Issa recalled in Al-Hoda, June 8, 1951, “The Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade ... He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions that Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean.”

Jews also fled their homes in fear of violence, and others were expelled. Jews fled from mixed neighborhoods such as the border areas between Jaffa and Tel Aviv, as well as from Jaffa itself. Gush Etzion, on the road between Bethlehem and Hebron, was captured by the Arab Legion and local Palestinian forces: the inhabitants were killed or taken prisoner and carried across the Jordan. Their settlements were completely demolished. The settlements Neveh Ya'akov and Atarot north of Jerusalem, also captured, were totally obliterated. All the residents of the Jewish quarter in the Old City in Jerusalem, conquered by local forces with the aid of the Arab Legion, were taken captive. No Jew was allowed to return to the Old City -- not even the ultra-Orthodox who detested Zionism and were prepared to live under Arab rule.

Israelis, poorly armed and outnumbered by the surrounding Arab armies, knew the alternative to winning the war against them was annihilation. (Jews did not have the option of fleeing to surrounding countries for safety.) As Secretary-General of the Arab League Azzam Pasha said in an interview with the BBC on the eve of the war, May 15, 1948, “The Arabs intend to conduct a war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.”

During the 1948 - 49 war, Egypt conquered Gaza, and Jordan conquered the West Bank. Neither country ever allowed Palestinian self-determination. Egypt kept the Arab residents of Gaza under tight control, denied them Egyptian citizenship, and subjected them to curfew and severe restrictions on travel. Jordan controlled Jerusalem from 1949 - 1967, and forcibly expelled all the Jews. Jews were not allowed to visit or pray at their holy sites during this time. All but one of 58 Jewish synagogues in the Old City were destroyed.

In 1951, Israel passed the Equal Rights Act, giving all Israeli women -- Jewish, Arab and others -- the status of equality before the law. Bigamy and child marriages were prohibited, and a woman could not be married without her consent (i.e., sold). Despite the ideal of equality for women during the creation of the state, women today are discriminated against in the workplace, are put at a disadvantage in divorce proceedings (which continue to be controlled by religious authorities), and the harassment of women is ubiquitous. The militarization of Israeli society, made necessary by the genocidal hostility to the Jewish country, takes its toll on the status of women, and consumes financial resources that might otherwise go toward enhancing social services. In the past, many military professions and all combat units were closed to women. In 2000, Israel’s Parliament opened all military professions to women, and women are now allowed to serve in combat. As in much of the world, illegal sex trafficking in women continues to be a serious problem. It is estimated that 2,500 - 3,000 women have been “imported” into Israel and are compelled to become prostitutes. In 2000, the penal code was amended to treat trafficking as a serious crime, with severe punishment for the traffickers.

Almost a million Jews were expelled from Arab countries, their property confiscated, during the late 1940s and early 1950s. 600,000 of these refugees fled to Israel, where they were made citizens and integrated into Israeli society at great expense, with no international assistance. 300,000 of the refugees fled to Europe and the U.S. The expelled Jews of the Middle East were never compensated for their stolen property -- their homes, businesses, savings -- which is valued in the billions of dollars. Today, more than half of Israel’s Jewish citizenry is made up of these Middle Eastern Jewish refugees and their descendants.

Palestinian refugees, by contrast, continue to be denied citizenship by all Arab countries except Jordan. (Jordan granted citizenship as part of its efforts to absorb the West Bank, which it had conquered, occupied, and annexed.) Today, many Arab countries exclude Palestinians from access to jobs, housing and land, even while they offer such benefits to non-Palestinian Arabs and non-Arabs. In Lebanon, for instance, it is currently illegal to employ Palestinians. Ralph Garroway, former director of UNRWA, said in 1958: “The Arab States do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it as an open sore, as an affront to the United Nations and as a weapon against Israel. Arab leaders don’t give a damn whether the refugees live or die.” The Palestinian refugees have received millions of dollars in assistance from the UNRWA, which is funded largely by the U.S.

UN resolution 194 was passed by the General Assembly in 1948 to create a commission to engender peace between Israel and the Arab countries. Only one of the fifteen paragraphs of the resolution alludes to “refugees,” in language that is as applicable to the hundreds of thousands of Jews who were expelled from Arab countries as to Arab refugees. The resolution (which is a recommendation, not a legal requirement, since it was passed by the General Assembly rather than the Security Council) suggested several possible solutions for the refugees, including resettlement and compensation for lost property. The return of refugees who are “willing to live in peace with their neighbors” is one of the recommendations. All the Arab states voted against Resolution 194 because it did not establish a “right of return” for Palestinians, and because it implicitly recognized Israel.

About 60,000 Palestinian refugees have returned over the decades under the terms of Israel’s family-reunification program. Arabs who lost property in Israel are eligible to file for compensation from Israel's Custodian of Absentee Property. Millions of dollars have already been paid by Israel in settlement of individual claims of lost property.

Arab leaders down the line have viewed a Palestinian “right of return” to Israel (wrongly identified in years to come as a legal demand of UN Resolution 194) as the alternative means of destroying the Jewish country. In October 1949, the Egyptian politician Muhammad Salah al-Din, soon to become his country’s foreign minister, wrote in the Egyptian daily al-Misri that “in demanding the restoration of the refugees to Palestine, the Arabs intend that they shall return as the masters of the homeland and not as slaves. More specifically, they intend to annihilate the state of Israel.” In March of last year, Faisal al-Husseini, the “moderate” minister for Jerusalem affairs in Yasser Arafat’s Palestinian Authority, said that “our eyes will continue to aspire to the strategic goal, namely, to Palestine from the [Jordan] river to the [Mediterranean] sea.” He added, “Whatever we get now cannot make us forget this supreme truth.” In their political discourse with one another in Arabic, and excluded from addresses to Western audiences, Arab leaders have made no secret of their perception of the “right of return” as a euphemism for the destruction of Israel through demographic subversion.

Though Israel is depicted internationally as the oppressor of Palestinians, in fact far more Palestinians were killed in the single month of September 1970 by King Hussein of Jordan than were killed in three decades of conflict with Israel. King Hussein, who was fighting off an attempt by Yasser Arafat's PLO to destroy his monarchy, killed between 3,000 and 5,000 Palestinians, including 1,500 to 3,500 civilians. The number of innocent Palestinians killed by Kuwait in the winter of 1991, in revenge for the PLO's support for Saddam Hussein, far exceeds the number of Palestinian rioters and terrorists who lost their lives in the first intifada against Israel during the late 1980’s. Kuwait also expelled 300,000 Palestinians from the country at that time. “If people pose a security threat, as a sovereign country we have the right to exclude anyone we don’t want,” explained Saud Nasir Al-Sabah, Kuwaiti Ambassador to the U.S.

The Arab League created the Palestine Liberation Organization in Cairo in 1964 as a weapon against Israel. The PLO engaged in terrorist attacks well before the Six-Day War in 1967 and Israel’s subsequent occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. The PLO’s charter, Palestinian National Covenant, calls for the destruction of Israel in many of its articles. There is no evidence that these articles have been removed. In April 1996—three years after the signing of the Oslo Declaration—Arafat's Fatah publication “In Our View” carried an article declaring that “the Rulers of Israel demanded that the summons of the National Council would be specifically made for amending the Charter and for the cancellation of those articles which deny Israel's right to exist. However, these are the same articles that proclaim the goal of liberating Palestine. Consequently, the cancellation thereof means the cancellation of the goal for which the PLO had been established.” In 1996, the Palestine National Council did vote to change the Covenant to abide by the principles of Oslo, but the amended version has never been published or shown to outsiders.

A few days before the outbreak of hostilities in June 1967, Egypt President Gamal Abdel Nasser, the foremost leader of pan-Arabism, predicted that "the battle will be total and our basic aim will be the destruction of Israel.” Israel’s surprise victory in the Six-Day war forced some Arab leaders to confront the reality of Jewish statehood. The next war, launched in October 1973 by Nasser's successor, Anwar Sadat, had the much narrower objective of triggering a political process that would allow Egypt to regain the territories lost in 1967. Israel’s military recovery in October 1973, after having been caught off-guard by the attack, further reinforced Sadat's determination to abandon the path of outright violence, and this culminated in the Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty of March 1979.

In exchange for Egypt’s promise of peace and increased U.S. aid, Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt, the region which Egypt had used to launch attacks against Israel. In doing so, Israel relinquished its shipping lanes, 1,000 miles of roadways, homes, factories, health facilities and agricultural villages. Because Egypt insisted that Jews leave the Sinai, 7,000 Israelis were uprooted from their homes and business. The residents of Yamit had to be forcibly removed by Israeli soldiers from their homes. The Alma oil field in the southern Sinai, discovered and developed by Israel, was transferred to Egypt, though it had become Israel’s largest single source of energy. The untapped reserves of the Alma field were estimated at that time to be worth $100 billion -- far more than the foreign aid Israel currently receives from the U.S.

Anwar Sadat’s successor, Hosni Mubarak, has since minimized interaction with Israel to the lowest possible level, transformed the Egyptian army into a modern force, and fostered a culture of virulent anti-Semitism in Egypt. For example, Egypt has banned Schindler’s List, but in the name of free speech, recently broadcast on state-owned television “Knight Without a Horse”, which includes a subplot based on the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, the anti-Semitic tract used to incite pogroms in Czarist Russia.

After its victory in the 1967 war, Israel carried out its occupation of the Palestinian territories with a combination of economic inducements and minimized intervention. The local populace was allowed to administer itself with relatively little interference, and have regular contact with the Arab world via the Jordan River bridges. In sharp contrast with, for example, the U.S. occupation of postwar Japan, which imposed a general censorship over all Japanese media and a comprehensive revision of school curricula, Israel made no attempt to reshape the culture. It limited its oversight of the Arabic press in the territories to military and security matters, and allowed the continued use in local schools of Jordanian textbooks filled with anti-Semitic and anti-Israel propaganda.

Before the Israeli occupation, fewer than 60 percent of all male Palestinian adults (then under Jordanian or Egyptian occupation) had been employed, with unemployment among refugees running as high as 83 percent. Soon after the Israeli occupation began, there were dramatic improvements in the health and the social and economic status of Palestinians, placing them well ahead of most of their Arab neighbors. The number of Palestinians working in Israel rose from zero in 1967 to 66,000 in 1975 and 109,000 by 1986, accounting for 35 percent of the employed population of the West Bank and 45 percent in Gaza.

During the 1970’s, the West Bank and Gaza constituted the fourth fastest-growing economy in the world -- ahead of Singapore, Hong Kong, and Korea, and substantially ahead of Israel itself. The per-capita GNP expanded tenfold between 1968 and 1991 from $165 to $1,715 (compared with Jordan's $1,050, Egypt’s $600, Turkey's $1,630, and Tunisia's $1,440). By 1999, Palestinian per-capita income was nearly double Syria’s, more than four times Yemen’s, and 10 percent higher than Jordan’s. Only the oil-rich Gulf states and Lebanon were more affluent.

Under Israel's occupation of the territories, the Palestinians also experienced vast progress in health and social welfare. Mortality rates in the West Bank and Gaza fell by more than two-thirds between 1970 and 1990, while life expectancy rose from 48 years in 1967 to 72 in 2000 (compared with an average of 68 years for all the countries of the Middle East and North Africa). Israeli medical programs reduced the infant-mortality rate of 60 per 1,000 live births in 1968 to 15 per 1,000 in 2000 (in Egypt the rate is 40, in Jordan 23, in Syria 22). Under a systematic program of inoculation, childhood diseases like polio, whooping cough, tetanus, and measles were eradicated. Women and non-landowners were for the first time given the right to vote.

Palestinian standard of living also vastly improved under Israeli occupation. By 1986, 92.8 percent of the population in the West Bank and Gaza had electricity around the clock, as compared to 20.5 percent in 1967; 85 percent had running water in dwellings, as compared to 16 percent in 1967; 83.5 percent had electric or gas ranges for cooking, as compared to 4 percent in 1967; and so on for refrigerators, televisions, and cars.

Water resources for the West Bank improved considerably during the Israeli occupation. The water system in the Hebron region was expanded. New wells were drilled near Jenin, Nablus, and Tulkarm. More than 60 towns in the West Bank were given new water supply systems, or had old ones upgraded by the Israeli administration. During the droughts of the late 70’s and 80’s, well drilling was restricted. However, even when water tables were at dangerously low levels, the Palestinian territories (as well as dry towns in Southern Lebanon and Jordan) have continued to receive water from wells and springs that surface inside the 1967 borders of Israel. In the period from 1967 to 1995 West Bank Palestinians increased their domestic water use by 640 percent.

During the first two decades of the occupation, the number of Palestinian children attending school grew by 102 percent, and the number of classes by 99 percent, though the population itself had grown by only 28 percent. Even more progress was made in higher education. At the inception of the Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, not a single university existed in these territories. By the early 1990’s, there were seven such institutions, with 16,500 students. Illiteracy rates dropped to 14 percent of adults over age 15, compared with 69 percent in Morocco, 61 percent in Egypt, 45 percent in Tunisia, and 44 percent in Syria.
Political groups, including the PLO, were allowed to organize with minimal interference during Israel's occupation. Israel allowed the free flow of PLO-controlled funds, a policy justified by Minister of Defense Ezer Weizmann who said in 1978, “It does not matter that they get money from the PLO, as long as they don’t build arms factories with it.” Israel allowed pro-PLO propaganda to appear in the local press, and allowed anti-Israel activity that did not directly incite violence. Israel did little to encourage the formation of Palestinian political institutions to serve as a counterweight to the PLO. Despite the PLO's access to outside funds, and its efforts to dominate and direct Palestinian society, Palestinian sentiment did not quickly fall into line with the PLO agenda. While the PLO claimed to be the “sole representative of the Palestinian people,” most terrorist activities still emanated from the outside -- from Jordan in the late 60s, and then from Lebanon.
Since 1967, Jerusalem's Arab population has grown faster than its Jewish population. In the period from 1967 to 1996, the city's Jewish population grew by 113.1 percent, while its Arab population grew by 163.7 percent. Similarly, home construction in the Arab sector of Jerusalem outpaced home construction in the Jewish sector.
The Oslo Agreements gave the Palestinians control of 40 percent of the West Bank and Gaza, where 96 percent of Palestinians live. The accords did not require Israel to dismantle or stop expanding Jewish settlements in the territories. The settlements did expand after Oslo, as did Arab housing within Israel. Polls show that the majority of Israelis would accept the "transfer" of settlers, and the dismantling of settlements, if this would help bring about peace. It is seldom asked in such dialogues why Jewish villages and citizens do not have a right to exist in safety and security in Palestinian territories -- or any other Arab-majority land. To similarly require the "transfer" of Arabs out of Israel as a basic component of "peace negotiations" is univerally unthinkable. To forcefully remove any group of civilians other than Jews from a land would be identified as "ethnic cleansing."
The international bias against Israel, reflected in media throughout the world, has been supported by Israeli academics who call themselves the “New Historians.” These academics became internationally famous by claiming that previously undisclosed documents point to Israel’s historical wrongdoing toward the Arabs. London-based history scholar Efraim Karsh methodically reveals in Fabricating Israeli History that these "New Historians" have based their claims on forgery, distortion, and reliance on (and distortion of) secondary texts as their main sources, while avoiding altogether documents crucial to the issues they address, including all documents in Arabic. For example, Benny Morris claimed that the founders of Israel wanted the “transfer”, or expulsion, of Arabs, when all documented evidence demonstrates the Zionist leaderships' resistance to the British suggestion. Morris claimed Israel's first prime minister David Ben-Gurion wrote in a letter that “we must expel Arabs and take their places.” In fact, the original letter reads: “We do not wish, we do not need to expel Arabs and take their place ... All our aspiration is built on the assumption ... that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs.” Avi Shlaim, for his part, argued that Zionists colluded with Transjordan’s King Abdullah to carve up Palestine following the exit of Britain. In fact, according to the informal (and only) documentation of an informal November 1947 meeting between Abdullah and Zionist leaders -- the meeting which all of Shlaim’s “evidence” is based on -- Abdullah proposed to annex Palestine and allow a “Hebrew Republic” within it. The Jewish leaders rejected this idea. Abdullah then proposed to capture the territory designated for the state of Palestine, rather than allow the creation of a new Arab state “which would upset my plans and enable the Arabs to ride on me.” The documents Shlaim refers to indicate, in fact, that Golda Meir told Abdullah that the Jews would acquiesce to this idea if he avoided war with the Jewish state and if he declared that his intent was only to temporarily maintain law and order until the UN could establish a new government. Obviously this is not collusion, or even cooperation, at an informal meeting at which major diplomatic decisions could not, in any case, be made. Unfortunately, Morris, Shlaim, and other leftist Israeli academics have given formal legitimacy to anti-Semitic campaigns against Israel, and in doing so, have succeeded in seriously misinforming the international public. For their efforts, these shoddy academics have been treated by the media as the foremost “authorities” on Israel, and are embraced, rather than targeted, by the anti-Semitic left.
One third of the UN's condemnations of specific countries have been directed solely against Israel. Twenty UN resolutions were directed against Israel during 2002 (up slightly from the annual average of 19), while no resolutions addressed human rights in countries such as Syria, Saudi Arabia or China. At the end of 2002, the UN General Assembly adopted a resolution on Palestinian children -- the only children in the world subject to the specific concern of a General Assembly resolution. The resolution was drafted on November 15, the same week a Palestinian gunmen shot to death two children -- Noam, 4, and Matan, 5 -- on an Israeli kibbutz. (Responsibility was claimed by Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, which is associated with Arafat’s organization Fatah.) On April 27, 2002 a Palestinian gunmen broke into a home west of Hebron, found five-year-old Danielle Shefi hiding under her parents’ bed and shot her in the head. On May 9, 2001, Israeli students Kobi Mandell, 13, and Yossi Ish-Ran, 14, were stoned to death and their bodies mutilated in a cave south of Jerusalem. Palestinian suicide bombers have routinely directed attacks at places where children gather, such as buses, discos and pizza parlors. More than 100 Israeli children have been murdered and 900 wounded or maimed in the past two years. The General Assembly resolution, however, made no mention of Israeli children. Also missing from the resolution supposedly on behalf of Palestinian children was any reference to the Palestinian Authority’s practice of encouraging Palestinian children to participate in the armed conflict; the endemic anti-Semitism in Palestinian children's textbooks used in schools run by the UN Relief and Works Agency; and the use of Palestinian children as human shields by terrorists operating from densely populated civilian areas.
The same day this resolution passed, the General Assembly adopted a resolution on racism, after a two-month negotiation over the inclusion of the word "anti-Semitism" as a form of racism. For the past four years, a racism resolution has included "anti-Semitism" as a specific subject of study of the UN Special Rapporteur on Racism, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance. This year, the reference to anti-Semitism as part of the mandate was deleted. Only the United States, Israel and Palau voted against the resolution.
During the UN’s World Conference on Racism in Durban in September 2001, Jews were targeted with hate speech, taunting, and physical intimidation on the streets and in the NGO forums, as well as open anti-Semitism at the Government Conference. The hate literature distributed during the NGO conference included caricatures of Jews with hooked noses, Palestinian blood on their hands, surrounded by money, and Israelis wearing Nazi emblems. At the Government Conference, there was daily distribution by NGO participants of literature reading "Nazi-Israeli apartheid." Inside the drafting committees, states such as Syria and Iran objected to the inclusion of anti-Semitism as a form of racism on the grounds that it was a "complicated," "curious," and "bizarre" concept, and maintained that any reference to the Holocaust would be unfair. At one point, thousands of South African Muslim demonstrators marched bearing banners proclaiming "Hitler should have finished the job." Jewish NGOs from around the globe finally walked out when the NGO Forum voted to delete from its concluding agreement only the proposal of the Jewish caucus. The international human rights community, including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, stood silently by. The Jewish proposal read: "We are concerned with ... attempts to delegitimize the State of Israel through wildly inaccurate charges of genocide, war crimes, crimes against humanity, ethnic cleansing and apartheid, as a virulent contemporary form of anti-Semitism. [We are concerned with the] armed assaults ... and murder of ... Jews for their support for the existence of the State of Israel, the assertion of the right to self-determination of the Jewish people, and the attempts, through the State of Israel, to preserve their cultural and religious identity." The NGO Forum included instead: "Anti-Arab racism is another form of anti-Semitism ... that has led to violence and hate crimes." The forum added, Zionism is racism. Israel was the only nation criticized at this global gathering.
At the UN International Women’s Year Conference in Mexico City in 1975, the final resolution condemned Zionism, but not sexism, as an “enemy of all women.” Later that same year, the UN General Assembly passed by 72 to 35, with 32 abstentions, a resolution denouncing Zionism as “a form of racism.” The resolution was used by anti-Semites around the world who disguised their anti-Semitic activity as anti-Zionist, hence anti-racist. In Britain, anti-Semitic university groups tried to expel Jewish student groups from British campuses on the grounds that they were pro-Zionist. The UN resolution was repealed in 1991. Some Arab states, along with Cuba, North Korea and Vietnam, opposed the repeal.
Israel is the only member state of the UN that is prohibited from standing for election to the Security Council, or to the Commission on Human Rights. Standing for election to the vast majority of UN bodies requires full membership in one of the UN's five regional groups and Israel alone is excluded from full membership of all five -- in direct contradiction of the UN Charter which requires the "equality of nations large and small." Israel is geographically suppose to be in the Asia Group, but is denied a seat. Israel has had temporary status (with less privileges and power) in the Western Europeans and Others Group since 2000.
The left and the mainstream media depict terrorism against Israeli civilians as a spontaneous, desperate response of the indigenous poor to Israel’s military occupation of the territories. However, this terrorism is highly organized and funded by fundamentalist Islamists that are explicit about their intent to wage war so long as the Jewish state exists. The terrorism is funded by anti-Semitic regimes and networks outside the Palestinian territories. The recruits for suicide bombing are young boys and men who have been formally schooled in anti-Semitism. They are not taught that terrorism will help free the territories from Israel. They are taught their murder-suicide will serve to eradicate Israel and the Jews in “Palestine,” and that for their sacrifice they will be glorified and rewarded as martyrs in paradise. The families of suicide bombers are paid handsomely by the external sponsors of terrorism, and the suicide bombers themselves become heroes after their death.
Throughout the Oslo peace process, Arafat’s school system continued to indoctrinate Palestinian children in the belief that Israel is illegitimate, that Jews are foreign to the region and have no historical or religious claims to the land, and that Palestinian youth are honor-bound to eject the “conquering thieves” from Jerusalem and “Palestine.”
As a result of the Oslo Agreements, more than 96 percent of the Palestinian population has been under Yasser Arafat’s jurisdiction. The Palestinian Authority controls virtually every aspect of Palestinian life -- schools, medical institutions, civic and political establishments. Palestinians now have passports, a flag, an international airport, and a sea port is underway.
Arafat's main responsibility in the Oslo accords is to arrest and extradite terrorists. He has since claimed to be unable to stop terrorism. A March 14, 2002 article published in USA Today, however, quoted leaders in terrorist organizations who do not hesitate to admit they are under the command of Arafat. Hussein A-Sheikh, a Fatah political leader in the West Bank (who, according to the article, appeared insulted when asked whether the brigade was under Arafat's control), said, “Of course, there is control. What do you think? That we are just a bunch of gangs?” The article also describes Palestinian Authority officials as verifying that most members of the brigade receive salaries from Arafat's Palestinian Authority. While Arafat exercises authoritarian control over the media, and decimates his enemies, he has treated terrorist groups, their production of explosives, and their recruitment of youngsters with leniency and protection. Arafat has arrested some members of terrorist groups, as Oslo requires, but he routinely releases them as soon as the international media spotlight disappears. Palestinians who support cooperation with Israel are likely to be executed. Hanan Ashrawi asserts that “life has become worse under the peace process.” If so, this seems a logical consequence of the authoritarian violence with which Arafat and Islamic militants now rule after Israel’s partial withdrawal from the territories.
Hanan Ashrawi <http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=8&x_nameinnews=2&x_article=191>, internationally viewed as a peace and human rights activist, said of the extradition of terrorists required by Oslo Agreements, “It has never happened and will never happen ... It has never happened that the Palestinian security or military forces have extradited a Palestinian ... It is unthinkable and is not even being considered.” (August 12, 1997, Voice of Palestine Radio)
Toward the end of the peace talks in 2000, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered Arafat an independent Palestinian state that included more than 97 percent of (contiguous) territory of the West Bank, 100 percent of Gaza, and East Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital. He also offered to dismantle some of the settlements, and to compensate and resettle Palestinian refugees, with a “right of return” offered to a limited number. According to U.S. negotiator Dennis Ross, Arafat responded to the offer by asserting that the Temple Mount, considered the holiest site in Judaism, does not exist. This rebuff came as the Israelis offered to allow Palestinian control of the surface of the Temple Mount, but asked for Jewish rights to the subterranean areas of the expanse on which the ancient Jewish temples stood. Israel's foreign minister at the time and negotiator at the talks, Shlomo Ben-Ami, who is known as particularly dovish, described in an extensive interview in Israeli’s liberal paper Ha'aretz in September the “total contempt” with which the Palestinian negotiators rejected even a “minimal” affirmation that the Temple Mount is a site “sacred to the Jews.” He also said in this interview, “Never in the negotiations between us and the Palestinians was there a Palestinian counterproposal. There never was and there never will be. So the Israeli negotiator always finds himself in a dilemma: Either I get up and walk out because these guys aren't ready to put forward proposals of their own, or I make another concession. In the end, even the most moderate negotiator reaches a point where he understands that there is no end to it.”
The left, along with the media, depict the second “intifada” as a spontaneous response to Ariel Sharon’s “provocative” visit in September 2000 to the Temple Mount. (They sometimes claim that he visited the Al-Aksa Mosque). In fact, the violence had been planned for months. According to Imad al-Faluji, the Palestinian Authority Communications Minister, the violence had been planned since July, far in advance of Sharon’s September visit to the Temple Mount. “Whoever thinks that the intifada broke out because of the despised Sharon's visit to Al-Aksa Mosque is wrong ... The intifada was planned in advance, ever since President Arafat's return from the Camp David negotiations,” he said.
As reported in Al Hayat al-Jadidya on July 20, 2000, “The Fatah movement [Arafat’s] announced a general call-up in its ranks as a preparation for the next stage. The movement announced the opening of registration for boys until the age of 16, for weapons training ... The individual responsible for the movement made it clear that the movement will offer military weapons training to all boys under the age of 16, and noted that there is a strong response on the part of the boys.” The Palestinian Authority closed the schools and bused Palestinian children to the organized riots. Palestinian TV contributed to the militarized atmosphere by running broadcasts of military parades and violence against Israeli soldiers. In the program “Fathers and Sons,” the announcer directed the voice-over of the soldiers on air: “Oh Satan’s agents, oh enemies of mankind. I am Man the son of Man, I have been robbed, I have been pursued, I am frightened, every day I die ... and in my death, is life; I am the flame of life.”
Thousands of Arabs began throwing bricks and rocks at Israeli police and the Jewish worshippers at the Western Wall. Twenty eight Israeli police were injured, and three were hospitalized. No Palestinians were injured that day. The rioting spread throughout the region. The Israeli peace movement, which had long argued that all that the Palestinians wanted was Israeli withdrawal from the territories and to live in coexistence, was devastated. Soon afterward, Sharon was elected by a landslide. On January 28, 2003, his party again swept to victory, despite the fact that most Israelis, unlike Sharon, favor the dismantling of the settlements, the transfer of the settlers, and the formation of a two-state solution as a means to peace. The Labor party, which campaigned on the promise to unconditionally return to negotiations with Arafat, won only 19 seats, the fewest ever in that party, and nearly half those won by Likud, Sharon's party. Many voters felt they had no one to vote for. Only 69 percent of voters turned out for the election, a historic low in Israel.
On October 27, with the intifada in full swing, Hafez Bargutti, Editor-in-Chief of the official PA newspaper Al Hayat al-Jadidya, called parents who attempt to keep their children away from the violent clashes a “fifth column,” and accused them “of the most severe transgressions.” Some parents, especially mothers, continued to resist. On December 8, 2000, USA Today reported that Palestinian mothers in the Tulkarm Women's Union called on the Palestinian Authority “to issue instructions to your police force to stop sending innocent children to their death.”

I wish they'd get some therapy for their collective mental illness.

The only "collective" belief shared by "zionists," if you're going to stupidly generalize about zionists, is that they support the existence of a jewish homeland, israel.

Nothing wrong with that. Every distinct people have a homeland in one place or another. Everyone has a place of origin. Every distinct people is also free to move elsewhere and bounce around the world, but everyone has a homeland. The Jewish people now have one again as well. That's the only collective thought "the zionists" - your term - believe. And good for them.

The fact you say the poster who posted the "rather lengthy, tedious spiel" "said very little, if anything" is a painfully accurate and sad testimony to your closet anti-Semitism and your crippled morality.
But then I'm not surprised.

JA, the resident SF-IMC lunatic, lost the last vestiges of his sanity, lost all his precious miniscule cool and is making a parody of the exquisite pro-Zionist post above.

Crippled morality? What kind of bloody nonsense are you coughing up here?

Was it your post, dear man? If so, why didn't you sign your own name to it and not that of someone else?

JA is seriously scary. THe intense hatred in his posts should scare all regular people here.

JA is seriously scary. THe intense hatred in his posts should scare all regular people here.

P.S. It's funny (actually, it's really sad, and disappointing, and disgusting) that the only ANTI ANTISEMITISM thread on this entire board is one that accuses jews of using antisemitism for their own benefit.

You forgot the quotation marks around the word nonsense.
I did use my screen name - I was speaking about your bullshit. That's what I do - counter bullshit from you and other "anti Zionists".

I'm not "'non-Critical Thinkifier" nor "anti Angie" nor any other alias you've just blown out of your ass. I would be ashamed of having a crush on someone as dumb and morally crippled and socially outcast as Angie.

Seems like you've been straightjacketed and semi-sedated. That's the only way to explain the relative calm your last posts reflects.

These Zionists *INTENSE* hatred of Palesinians -- and of Arabs in general -- is *REALLY* **REALLY** *SCAREY*!!

Do you see these guys spamming their posts two or three times in the same thread! And that's when they're not posting entire chapters from their "Protocols from the Elders of Palestine" screenfuls of screeds.

Gee, these Zionists are *LUNATICS*!!

Look above at the INTENSELY Palestinian-hating Zionist "ok"! He thinks that he can actually peddle that PFTEOP stuff! He is *MESSED* *UP*!!

These Zionists need to get back onto their *meds*!!

*****SCAREY*****!!!

Haha that JA is getting funnier all the time.

Well, only scary in the sense of, say, a five-year-old in a vampire costume. He shouts and shouts and shouts, that's all.

And, one more time, I do not post under any other name than "gehrig," which happens to be my name.

JA will never understand how this is possible. Add that to the list of things JA will never understand.

@%<

From the keyboard of 'anti-bullshit", he whom I simply call "bullshit", we have the oh, so curious:

"I would be ashamed of having a crush on someone as dumb and morally crippled and socially outcast as Angie".

(Significant pause here)

Sorry, folks. Can't seem to stop laughing. If you're waiting for me to comment on the above, pack a lunch.

I'm blushing!

However, moving quickly along, your description of "anti-bullshit" et al had me laughing (and still so doing!) I could see it all unfolding as you described same.

Little brat! Bet he hasn't changed since third grade. Or maybe he's still in third grade.

We have PBC Detroit here, and for the most part I like it. It's given us some great documentaries over the recent past, great stuff from National Geographic, etc.

I would, however, LOVE to see "Palestine is the Issue", especially as how it caused as much of an uproar as Fergal Keane's "The Accused'. It must be correct in that case!

Incidentally, when are you going to remember the "other line"? You will note I have not forgotten same. Think, man, think!!

Angie

JA, your ranting and paranoid "the zionists do this, the zionists feel that" lunacy makes it impossible to take you or your opinions seriously, which makes it pretty hard to get anyone riled up.

Coming from you -- a ZZZionist -- that really hurts a lot!

(Haha!)

JA, your hatred of this delusional "zionist" creature of yours really indicates you should seek some sort of mental help.

Fucking wackjobs and their pet peeves.

JA only likes Jews who are active in promoting the removal of jews from israel.

If you're just a regular jew, and not actively working against the jewish people, JA hates you.

Of course, muslims who aren't working against islamic leaders, JA has no problem with them.

Christians who aren't working against the wrongs other people who are christian do, JA has no problem with them.

BUt if you're a Jew who doesn't want harm to come to the 1/3 of the world's jews who now live in Israel, JA hates you and has dedicates his life to slandering you.

YYYAWWWWWNNNNN.......!!!!!


(Oh, I forgot!: "anti-angie" and "Critical Thinkifier" are ***DEAD***!!! DEAD AND GONE ***FOREVER***!!!!!)

HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA...!!!!

ROTFLMAO!!!


('dem Zionists boyz jes' crack me up!!!)

Are you really sitting there laughing like a crazed lunatic?

Seek medication, JA.

JA just can't stop his paranoid obsessing linking "hi" and "no" to "Critical Thinker" or "anti Angie".
Who's next on JA's roster? Scottie and gehrig too?
For all we know JA may be typing his stuff from a bed in a closed ward in a psychiatric hospital.

It would be helpful to make both Angie and JA Angie undergo lobotomy just as Realist mentioned on another thread.
Speaking of Critical Thinker or anti Angie, they may have reincarnated.

anti-bullshit: "JA just can't stop his paranoid obsessing linking "hi" and "no" to "Critical Thinker" or "anti Angie".
Who's next on JA's roster? Scottie and gehrig too? "

I think he's already added me to the mix at some point or other -- which I took as just more confirmation that the doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.

Not that it needed more confirmation.

@%<

Try harder, Mr. Gehrig!

A bit early in the day, but I note you are still your pompous self! And to think it occurred to me from time to time that buried somewhere underneath all of this facade there lurked a wee sense of humour!

God been speaking to you again, eh?

Steven Plaut
[Graphics and Layout Masada2000.org]
9/23/03
..

Say what? Anti-Semites? Who, us anti-Zionists? Us?

We have nothing against Jews as such. We just hate Zionism and Zionists. We think Israel does not have a right to exist. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. Heavens to Mergatroyd. Marx Forbid. We are humanists. Progressives. Peace lovers.

Anti-Semitism is the hatred of Jews. Anti-Zionism is opposition to Zionism and Israeli policies. The two have nothing to do with one another. Venus and Mars. Night and day. Trust us.

Sure, we think the only country on the earth that must be annihilated is Israel. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

Sure, we think that the only children on earth whose being blown up is okay if it serves a good cause are Jewish children. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

Sure, we think that if Palestinians have legitimate grievances this entitles them to mass murder Jews. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

Naturally, we think that the only people on earth who should never be allowed to exercise the right of self-defense are the Jews. Jews should only resolve the aggression against them through capitulation, never through self-defense. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We refuse to acknowledge the Jews as a people, and think they are only a religion. We do not have an answer to how people who do not practice the Jewish religion can still be regarded as Jews. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We think that all peoples have the right to self-determination, except Jews, and including even the make-pretend "Palestinian people". But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We hate it when people blame the victims, except of course when people blame the Jews for the jihads and terrorist campaigns against them. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We think the only country in the Middle East that is a fascist anti-democratic one is the one that has free elections. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We demand that the only country in the Middle East with free speech, free press or free courts be destroyed. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We oppose military aggression, except when it is directed at Israel. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We really understand suicide bombers who murder bus loads of Jewish children and we insist that their demands be met in full. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We do not think that Jews have any human rights that need to be respected, and especially not the right to ride a bus without being murdered. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.


There are Jewish, leftist anti-Zionists and we consider this proof that anti-Zionists could not possibly be anti-Semitic; not even the ones who cheer when Jews are mass murdered. These are the only Jews we think need be acknowledged or respected. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We think that Israel’s having a Jewish majority and a star on its flag makes it a racist apartheid state. We do not think any other country having an ethnic-religious majority or having crosses or crescents or “Allah Akbar” on its flag is racist or needs dismemberment. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We condemn the “mistreatment” of women in the only country of the Middle East in which they are not mistreated. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We condemn the “mistreatment” of minorities in the only country in the Middle East in which minorities are not brutally suppressed and mass murdered. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We demand equal citizen rights, which is why the only country in the Middle East in need of extermination is the only one in which such rights exist. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We have no trouble with the fact that there is no freedom of religion in any Arab countries. But we are mad as hell at Israel for violating religious freedom, and never mind that we are never quite sure where or when it does so. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

So how can you possibly say we are anti-Semites? We are simply anti-Zionists. We seek peace and justice, that’s all. And surely that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

http://masada2000.org/Who-Us.html