To fellow Seekers of Justice for Rachel Corrie

Hey, Windy Wendy, since you won't answer this question in the original thread, maybe you'll answer it here.

Here's a quote from you from yesterday: "Askenazi Jews (the white European Jews) are the most virulently racist of all modernday racists along the lines of Nazis and the KKK towards non-Jews and they are even anti-Jews who are not White."

Now, Windy Wendy, that's an unqualified blanket condemnation of an entire ethnic group, Ashkenazi Jews. Is there any reason in the world that, after seeing you laying down stuff like that, any reasonable person should _not_ decide that you're an antisemitic bigot?

@%<

I was there too...when he said "Marla was one of our own" he was referring to the fact that she was a Berkeley alum.

Who are the real racists? The Zionist Jews, largely white Askanazi Jews, who support a Jewish state that only allows for equal rights for Jews(where even olive-skinned Sephardic Jews are treated as less than equal to the White Askanazi Jews), and who insist that non-Jewish Americans pay for this racist, apartheid state?

Or are the real racists the anti-Zionists, many who are Jewish, (http://www.nkusa.org), who are against any discrimination before the law against people just because of their religion, race, or gender?

You decide. I think it's a no-brainer, personally.

gehrig and his type are their own worst enemies.

The Neturei Karta Jews are far more progressive than any Zionist Jew or Zionist Christian for that matter.

pudge: "I was there too...when he said "Marla was one of our own" he was referring to the fact that she was a Berkeley alum."

Well, it's hardly the first time that Windy Wendy has used an innocent comment to project her racism onto simply because the speaker was Jewish.

Windy Wendy: "Who are the real racists? yammity yammity yammity dodge weave juggle mumble yammity yammity"

That's okay, Windy Wendy, I really didn't expect you to answer the question in anything close to a direct manner, because have you boxed yourself in too neatly with your very own words. So I figured you'd instead try to rewrite what you said. As you did.

Here it is again: "Askenazi Jews (the white European Jews) are the most virulently racist of all modernday racists along the lines of Nazis and the KKK towards non-Jews and they are even anti-Jews who are not White."

Windy Wendy, everyone can see quite plainly that you didn't say "Ashkenazi Zionist Jews." You said "Ashkenazi Jews." Clear as a bell. Don't insult our intelligence by pretending you didn't.

@%<

Zionists always try to cover up that fact that they don't really consider non-Jews, even Christian Americans, as "one of them". They don't want to offend the hands that feed them (non-Jewish Americans by and large).

I got a hate call the other day from a man who identified himself as a white Jew from South Africa (with a heavy New York accent) and he thinks that So. Africa should go back to being Apartheid! He also said my "olive-skinned friend (name withheld) is not welcome in Israel-- he's a swarthy, no-good Jew, that Sephardic Jew" and called me names and told me to "drop dead".

The worst racists on earth tody are the Zionist Askenazi Jews, mainly from Russia and also the ones that are now in the US. They need to be held accountable for their racism just like any other racist should be. They are the WORST because they are getting away with blatant racism and crimes agaisnt humanity every day. The Zionists must be delegitimized and marginalized in public discourse and in the eyes of the law just like the non-Jewish White Supremacists, such as in the KKK and neo-Nazis. There must be no double standards with regards to Zionism and Zionist Israel.

Non-Jewish Americans don't want their tax dollars to pay for the Zionist state of Israel, a racist, apartheid country guilty of ethnic cleansing.

Windy Wendy's trying _so hard_ to pretend she didn't say what she said, and it's just not working. You can close your eyes and jam your ears, Windy Wendy, but it won't change the fact that you said what you said.

Windy Wendy: "I got a hate call the other day yammity yammity yammity and he said yammity yammity ..."

Oh, golly, Windy Wendy, then that must be what _all Ashkenazi Zionists_ feel! Because if it wasn't what _all Ashkenazi Zionists_ feel, how could ONE of them say it?

You still just don't get the basic Aristotelian logic stuff, do you? I could use the exact same reasoning to tar all anti-Zionists by quoting one of their more reprehensible examples -- you. But that would be both logically and ethically wrong; maybe one day you'll figure that out about what _you're_ doing.

I won't repeat the quote you're running from again, because it's been posted in this thread several times already. Again, Windy Wendy, everyone with eyes can see quite plainly that you didn't say "Ashkenazi Zionist Jews." You said "Ashkenazi Jews." Clear as a bell. Don't insult our intelligence by pretending you didn't.

Of _course_ you can't respond to that quote directly. That would require intellectual honesty. So try once more to say anything in the world you think is remotely related to that point _except_ for the point itself -- that you've been caught out once again with another one of your antisemitic outbursts, and you're afraid to discuss it because you know you're caught dead to rights.

@%<

anyone see an irony in a person trying to say that we should show distain for a race (Askenazi Jews) as he does, because he believes that that race is "the most racist on earth"?

"Non-Jewish Americans don't want their tax dollars to pay for the Zionist state of Israel, a racist, apartheid country guilty of ethnic cleansing."

Yeah! Let's just support Egypt, a racist, apartheid country guilty of ethnic cleansing which is unencumbered by any shred of democracy.

It gets really tiresome to always remember to throw in Zionist in between Askanazi Jews in an obvious discussion about Zionist Jews. gehrig is just a nit -picker. Or we could just say gehrig is a nitwit! He's no doubt a racist Askanazi Zionist Jew,who never denies that he is against the secular, democratic one-state solution of Palestine-Israel with equal rights for all regardless of religion, race or sex, including for all the Palestinian refugees who have the right to return to their ancestral homeland of Palestine-Israel according to UN Resolutions, International Law and world opinion. He can't deny that, altho he will try to obfuscate the issues whatever way he can. Like the typical Zionist.

Windy Wendy: "It gets rather tiresome yammity yammity yammity"

So your new stance is that your lapses into antisemitic rhetoric are caused by _fatigue_? Maybe if you thought more and typed less, you wouldn't make that sort of antisemitic outburst.

@%<

He simply won't address the fact that he does not endorse equal rights for all in Israel-Palestine, regardless of religion, race or gender, including for all the Palestinian refugees who have the right to return to their ancestral homeland of Israel-Palestine.

gehrig won't touch that one! Because he's a racist who doesn't support the transformation of Israel into a true, secular democracy with completely equal rights for all, regardless of religion, race, ethnicity or sex.

Therefore, gehrig is a racist and thinks that segregation and apartheid in the Holy Land is fine. He does not believe that non-Jews should have equal rights in Israel. He is a Jewish Supremacist, no doubt, a White Jewish Supremacist, and most likely an Askanazi White Jewish Supremacist who only cares about Jews and their well-being, and places them above all others, especially non-Jewish Palestinians. He doesn't like anyone who criticizes Israel and accuses them of being anti-Semitic, which goes to show he doesn't think that anyone really cares about the Palestinians' rights, and therefore, he is a RACIST in the first degree. A Zionist racist. Zionism is a blatant form of racism, in fact it is violent racism. Zionism is a form of racist TERRORISM and must be outlawed from influencing US policies both domestic and foreign. Just like Nazis or White Supremacism has been marginalized and delegitimized.

Windy Wendy -- posting under the _fourth_ _separate_ nym she's used so far in this thread, so confused is her sense of self: "He is a Jewish Supremacist, no doubt, a White Jewish Supremacist, and most likely an Askanazi White Jewish Supremacist who only cares about Jews and their well-being, and places them above all others, especially non-Jewish Palestinians."

Oh, you can do better than _that_, Windy Wendy. Crank that lie-upon-lie-izer up to eleven.

Here's something that isn't a lie, though: your blanket condemnation of Ashkenazi Jews as racist was an inescapably antisemitic remark. Which is why you're trying now to pretend you said something else, you meant something else, you didn't really say it, you're a geranium in a flowerpot making coo and burble noises, or whatever your next lie will be.

Windy Wendy: "He doesn't like anyone who criticizes Israel and accuses them of being anti-Semitic, which goes to show he doesn't think that anyone really cares about the Palestinians' rights, and therefore, he is a RACIST in the first degree. "

Once again, Windy Wendy, no, I don't call anyone who criticizes Israel antisemitic. You, however, I do. For a simple reason: you _are_ an antisemite.

Can you say that you've never had a post pulled from Indybay solely for the antisemitic sentiment you expressed? Well, you can, but you'd be lying. Again.

Now here's my other question for you to dodge, Wendy -- since you're obviously finding that indefensibly antisemitic quote of yours I posted above indefensible and must therefore ignore it in embarrassment -- did you _know_, when you commended that Jewish Tribal Review site, that it included links to neo-Nazi sites and Holocaust denial sites? Or is this just another case -- as it was with the Cactus48 site and the "No War for Israel" site -- that you just found a page that played into your antisemitic worldview and then you championed the site without investigating further?

@%<

You see how he always dodges the issues? He believes that Israel should continue to be the racist, anti-democratic, apartheid country that it is. He thinks it should be a Jewish state with equal rights only for Jews. He doesn't support the Palestinian refugees right to return even though it is their inalienable right to return to their ancestral homeland of Palestine-Israel, according to UN Resolutions, International Law and world opinion. Gehrig is a Jewish Supremacist racist Zionist Jew, most likely, of the Askanazi variety.

This kid is a one-woman irony generation machine, and that last post was a perfect little example of the working of Windy Wendy's mind.

My question about the antisemitic outburst from Windy Wendy I quoted above ("Ashkenazi Jews are ..."): dodged for the tenth or so time.

My question about whether Windy Wendy can honestly say that she's never had a post pulled from Indybay for the overt antisemitism of what she'd said: dodged for the fourth or so time.

My question about whether she knew that the site she had endorsed to demonstrate "how Jews think" included links to neo-Nazi sites and Holocaust denial sites: dodged.

Yet, what's the first sentence of her response: "You see how he always dodges the issues?"

You're a riot, Windy Wendy. You couldn't do a better job deconstructing yourself if you wrote "Whackjob" on your forehead with lipstick.

@%<

What I read in this tread is nothing more than the Nazi Propaganda about Jews wanting to take over the world printed in 1930's.

For youur information, I just returned from a trip to Israel. And what did I see: I saw Jews, white, dark, and black going about their usual day, there was no discrimation, there was a sense of peaceful harmony that people do not see in the US. I saw Israeli Arabs working in the hotel, they did not seem that they are oppressed or second class citizens. Of course there is some discrimination against them (just like there is discrimination in the US agains the blacks, and in France against the Algerians) but the Arabs who live in Israel have by far the most rights accorded to any arab in the 22 arab countries that exist. Free press, freedom of religion, freedom of vocation, protection of minority. THey should kiss the ground and thank the ISraeli governemnt for all the freedom that is bestowed upon them by their Jewish majority.

However, I (being a Russian Jew living in the US) believe that Israel must be A JEWISH STATE. One of the reasons why Israel was founded was to be a safe haven for Jews who faced persecution in Europe and in the MIddle east (dhimmi minority) for 2000 years culminating with a genocide of 6 million Jews murdered. After 1945, the Jews had no place to go, they could not stay in anti-semtic Europe and America would not let them all in (quota system) so they went to Palestine (Eretz Israel for the Jews) their ancestral homeland, and established a state there. \

I COMPLETELY reject a naive idea of a one state solution (Israel/Palestine). Palestinians who presently live in the West Bank and gaza are the most radicalized people on earth, glorifying terrorism, suicide, murder, and sacrificing of children. NOT ALL of them support this, but a significant majority does. Whether they will have a state, a demilitarized state in the West bank and Gaza, or if a Palestinian state will be declared in Jordan(which is 75% of historic palestine and where 80 percent of "Jordanians" are palestinians), ISRAEL MUST REMAIN A JEWISH STATE WITH A JEWISH MAJORITY WITH EQUAL RIGHTS TO THE MINORITY, like it already is.

Trying to talk to Gehrig is like trying to talk to the concrete Israeli Apartheid Wall.

Waste of time.

But we will tear down the Apartheid Wall.

"Sowing the Seeds of Love" by Tears for Fear.
Crank it up!!!

In Windy Wendy's case, I think "Brain Damage" by Pink Floyd might be a tad closer to the truth.

@%<

Gasbag Gehrig: " Hey, Windy Wendy, since you won't answer this question in the original thread, maybe you'll answer it here.

Here's a quote from you from yesterday: "Askenazi Jews (the white European Jews) are the most virulently racist of all modernday racists along the lines of Nazis and the KKK towards non-Jews and they are even anti-Jews who are not White". "

WHEN YOU GO ACCUSING SOMEONE OF MAKING A DEROGATORY, RACIST, OR ANTI-SEMITIC STATEMENT, WHY DON'T YOU PROVIDE THE DOCUMENTATION WHERE WE CAN *ALL* CHECK IT OUT AND NOT JUST TAKE YOUR *RACIST* (SEE THE IRONY?) ZIONIST WORD FOR IT?

Stop lying about what I post and then maybe I will.

In the meantime, Windy Wendy has had a dozen chances to say "that's not what I said," but she doesn't, because she knows I'm cutting and pasting straight from her post. That's why she's trying so desperately to change the subject: because she knows what she said, and she knows I'm quoting her accurately.

But _by all means_ come to Windy Wendy's defense, JA. _Please_ do. Knock yourself out.

@%<

IF ISRAEL IS SUCH A MULTICULTURAL WONDERLAND, THEN WHY DIDN' T ***YOU*** GO THERE???

WHAT ARE YOU DOING ***HERE*** WITH ALL US "ANTI-SEMITES"???

I'M SURE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH EASIER -- WITH YOUR JEWISH AUTOMATIC CITIZENSHIP AND SUCH -- TO IMMIGRATE TO ISRAEL!! *HYPOCRITE*!

BY THE WAY, I JUST MET A UKRANIAN JEWISH IMMIGRANT, TUESDAY, AT AN AMNESTY INT'L PROGRAM ABOUT BUSH'S/ASHCROFT'S "PATRIOT" ACT. SHE DIDN'T IMMIGRATE TO ISRAEL EITHER, BUT THAT'S BECAUSE SHE DOES **NOT** BELIEVE IN A ZIONIST STATE!

[SHE ALSO SAID THAT JOHN ASHCROFT AND THE "PATRIOT" ACT(S) WERE WHAT SHE THOUGHT SHE WAS ESCAPING FROM IN THE FORMER SOVIET UNION AND SHE ATTENDED AND SPOKE AT THE PROGRAM TO *WARN* US.]

GASBAG GEHRIG: "My question about the antisemitic outburst from Windy Wendy I quoted above ("Ashkenazi Jews are ..."): dodged for the tenth or so time."

And, as I said, stop lying about my posts, and I just may post the link. Windy Wendy hasn't asked for one, though, because she knows she posted it.

And again, you'll pardon me if I feel no particular need to jump at your orders when you're on record simply and plainly lying through your teeth about what I've said here.

Got a problem with that? Have a good cry. And then think twice before typing your next lie.

@%<

It's amazing how the israel-haters refuse to believe that anyone who also hates israel could possibly be evil, a liar, or a bad person in any way.

But that make sense when you consider that David Duke and white supremecists spew the IDENTICAL DISHONEST CRAP as some alleged "peace" activists now do.

The really amusing thing is that the supposedly merely anti-Zionist site that Windy Wendy was endorsing earlier this year was registered to davidduke.com.

That's why Windy Wendy suddenly goes instantaneously blind any time her endorsement of that site gets mentioned. She's too embarrassed.

@%<

If you doubt it, check out his website yourself.

By the way, I would bet tons of money that the person who keeps writing the spam about NESSIE is most definately a Zionist Jew trying to interrupt any discussion of Zionism.

At any rate, it IS very ironic how David Duke, obviously a racist, can be SO wrong about Blacks but SO RIGHT about Zionist Jews. Like I said, you have to check it out for yourself. But you'll have to order his book on-line, thanks to the Zionist-compliant bookstores like Borders and Barnes & Noble. They also don't carry "Culture of Critique" , a phenomenal, seminal book by Kevin MacDonald, another book that explores the insidious influence of Zionist Jews on the US culture in the most thoroughly scholarly manner-- like I said, check it out yourself. Get it from Amazon.com. F**k the mainstream bookstores.

For those who don't follow such things, Kevin MacDonald is the guy who testified on David Irving's behalf in the Irving/Lipstadt trial in 2000. He claimed to be an expert on the social phenomenon of antisemitism, but when asked whether he thought David Irving himself was an antisemite, said he didn't think so, just that the Jews were out to get him.

@%<

Duke apologist #2: "Sure it has some ties to some racists"

"Ties" only in the sense that it's owned and run by them.

Domain Name: NOWARFORISRAEL.COM
Registrar: INTERCOSMOS MEDIA GROUP, INC. D/B/A DIRECTNIC.COM
Whois Server: whois.directnic.com
Referral URL: http://www.directnic.com
Name Server: NS1.DAVIDDUKE.COM
Name Server: NS2.DAVIDDUKE.COM
Status: ACTIVE
Updated Date: 05-feb-2003
Creation Date: 05-feb-2003
Expiration Date: 05-feb-2005

@%<

Is it, incidentally, Indybay policy that -- in the name of anti-racism -- it's all right to praise David Duke here, as long as you're praising him for hating Zionism?

In other words, is Indybay being played for a fool again?

@%<

David Duke is a racist and is completely removed from the movement we are building that is opposed to the Zionist state.

The difference is that we are a justice movement that recognizes the oppression of the Palestinian people, the theft of the land, and the reason there can never be peace as long as Zionism is the roadmap to the continuation of the Israeli enterprise. That does not make us antisemitic, rather we also realize that justice for the Palestinians is beneficial to the Jewish people in Israel/Palestine, if only because religious pluralism and social equality between races are the roots of a true democracy (Israel is not there yet.). The prime reason that justice is continually deferred is due to political zionism. Thus, our enemy is the ideology of Zionism, not the Jewish people or any other people.

David Duke, however, is a Jew-hating white supremacist that uses political zionism as a reason to hate all Jews, regardless of ideology, and in this respect, him and the Zionists are in league with blanketing all of Judaism and the Jewish people as inherently and unshakably "Zionist". White supremacists have always been antisemitic, while the movement to oppose zionism has been embraced by Jews since the time of Herzl.

As people who support justice in Palestine, we are neither pro-Israel nor pro-Palestine. We are for Justice and against Zionism. As such, we are committed to combating all forms of injustice, whether it be racial, economic, or otherwise. That is the only roadmap to peace that will work.

Because of this, it is absolutely inconceivable to reconcile the differences between us and the white supremacists of which David Duke is a representative of.

AZ
SF

"Anti-Zionist", please note you've made 2 mistakes which I'm correcting. Hope you'll read the following and learn the facts:

"The prime reason that justice is continually deferred is due to political zionism. "
This is utter bullshit. The main reason is due to Palestinian rejectionism and obstructionism by Arafat and much of his Fatah faction, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and PFLP (terror groups).

"David Duke and the Zionists are in league with blanketing all of Judaism and the Jewish people as inherently and unshakably "Zionist". "
Wrong, semi-genius. Most Zionists distinguish between Zionists and non-Zionist Jews, and between Zionism and Judaism.

>Duke is a racist but...
>by he's right about Zionist Jews!

How do we know that Gehriig didn't post this himself, just to smear anti-Zionists?

There is NO difference between Zionist Islamophobes like Elliott Abrams, Daniel Pipes, etc. and David Duke --- both groups of such people are RACISTS!

The difference between Zionist Jewish White Supremacist Racists and White Euro-American Supremacists is this:

Zionist racists not only get away with spreading their hate-mongering racism everywhere they please in public and in the mainstream media, but they are actually REWARDED with top-notch powerful and influential positions, lucrative contracts, plenty of air-time and in all the Zionist controlled and Zionist enabling media. And American taxpayers are forced to pay for their racist, anti-democratic, apartheid country of Israel, which is billions of U.S. tax $$$$$$ a year! On top of that, these Zionists try to convince everyone they are not racists!

David Duke, on the otherhand, is obviously a racist, especially where it concerns Blacks, however, much of what he says about Zionism and Zionist Jews rings true and not only that but he provides the evidence so you can do you own research. And David Duke on the otherhand is in jail now thanks to his Zionist political enemies on trumped up charges of "tax evasion" of some sort-- he's a political prisoner, make no doubt about it.

MY BEEF IS that we MUST NOT ALLOW ZIONISTS TO GET AWAY WITH THEIR BLATANT RACISM!!!!!! They should be held accountable just as any other racist would be, especially with regards to US domestic and foreign policy. Racist Zionists are running the show with regards to the U.S. Middle East foreign policy!!! Why don't you read the Jewish Forward or other such Jewish papers and see how they even brag about!

Of course, Israeli connection and Jewish interests with regards to causing the war on Iraq to happen is not polite or politically correct to report in US mainstream media. See how the Zionists have an insidious effect on American policy and culture? Duh!

And here's another difference between Zionists and most true Anti-Zionists: Anti-Zionists want equal rights for all regardless of religion, ethnicity, race or sex here in America and in any country that our tax dollars goes to. Israel is a racist, anti-democratic, apartheid country and does not deserve one cent of our money until it is transformed into a true democracy.

Zionists do not want a true democracy in Israel for sure, and they don't really want one here in the US either. They want "whatever is good for the Jews'-- that's the ONLY qualification they care about.

If Duke is in jail, so should the blatant racists Abrams, Perle, Wolfowitz and Pipes be too! Why should they get off the hook????

They should be shunned as the f****** racists that they are and for their part in getting the US to fight Israel's wars and fund Israel's apartheid state!!!!!!!!

I f so many Jews are so disturbed about Zionist Israel and being labelled as Zionists, why don't more of them speak out against Zionism?

Why do we have to rely on the Neturei Karta, the UltraOthodox Jews to do all the speaking for anti-Zionist Jews? They are far more progressive the the so-called liberal Left Jews in general!

Most liberal Left Jews are phonies it seems.

WHAT'S *THAT*!!!??? SOME KIND OF CORN PONE MIDWESTERN RURAL INSULT OR SOMETHIN'!??? WHERE DO YOU LIVE? IN SMALL-TOWN *KANSAS*!??

OOOO...!!!!: "GO FISH!"

(spoken in his nasally, high-pitched little voice.)

YOU SHOULD TRY THAT INSULT IN THE GHETTO!! -- OR MAYBE IN THE HAIGHT AGAINST THE URBAN PUNKSTERS/GOTHS!!

BOYYYY..., YOU COULD *REALLY* **SCARE** 'EM WITH *THAT*, GEHRIG!!

(Don't forget to wear your navy blue suit with the short pants and the beanie cap, gehrig.)

OOOO...!!! I'M *SHIVERING* WITH FEAR -- AND *REALLY* *DEVASTATED* WITH HURT!!!

YEAH, YOU *SURE* KNOW HOW TO HURT A GUY, GEHRIG!!

Click here:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/04/1601076.php

*** Windy Wendy ("no double standards!"),
Your lovely supremacist Duke broke one law or a few, but the other individuals haven't, so they weren't arrested and brought to trial. Maybe you should tip the FBI and try getting them arrested? No, seriously.
What evidence do you have to offer to prove Abrams, Perle, Wolfowitz and Pipes are racists? Please disclose it!

*** "?",
I think I have the answer to your first question. Many non-Zionist and anti-Zionist Jews have realized that you guys, namely a crowd consisting of anti-Zionists and anti-Semites and both, have been manipulating and exploiting them and their positions to propagate dismantlement of Zionism, both within and outside Israel while not concerning yourselves with dismantlement of Palestinian nationalism and Islamist extremism amongst the Palestinians, two problems which pose greater and clearer threats than Israel and Zionism do. Therefore, they seem to reckon it would be a waste of their time and efforts to cooperate with you. On the other hand, NK is willing to adopt to any problematic realities caused by Palestinian nationalism and Islamist supremacism and would never even entertain a notion of asking the Palestinians to bend over a bit. Also, the one-state solution espousing true democracy with equality for all is anathema to NK ideology and they don't want to help bring such thing about; they're content with letting the Palestinians have supremacy and/or supremacism. So your second question has been answered too.
The truth hurts very often.

Geez... what proof does anyone have that Abrams, Pipes, and company are racists?
Guess you are pretty ignorant. Do you know how to read?

Your mind is like a concrete Apartheid Wall.

Don't worry, we will tear it down and dismantle Zionist Israel in due time. Just a matter of time.

It won't be long either.

Get ready!

Wow, you're a scary lunatic.

The only way you are going to "dismantle zionist israel" is by murdering so many jews there that the rest of them, for the 23982389th time, flee to someplace else.

Is that what you plan on doing?

I didn't realize that anyone who criticizes Israel is a Jew-hating Nazi. Thanks. I'll keep that in mind the next time I hear one of those anti-Semitic scum laying into Ariel Sharon.

Oh, look, on TV, some IDF guys beating a Palestinian boy into pulp. Gosh, that makes me feel slightly uneasy about current Israeli policies in the West Bank--oh, my God, I'm anti-Semitic, I'm worse than Hitler!!--someone lock me up!

"Steve Berley, the Israel programs director of the Jewish Community Relations Council [extremist group that supports the Sharon government], admitted that the night was a complete loss."
That is a quote from the article from the Jewish Bulletin (see http://www.jewishsf.com/bk030912/ebp3a.shtml ) regarding the Berkeley resolution supporting an investigation of the death of Rachel Corrie, and House Con. Res 111 that currently is co-sponsored by nearly 50 representatives and now by a 5-4 vote in the Berkeley City Council. This resolution must be defended, because it may be revisited next week. Our opponents are offering a resolution that asks that H.Con.Res. 111 be amended to ask for an "investigation of all American deaths" in Israel/Palestine. We believe that an investigation of all deaths in general is an investigation into no one in particular. Further, they present no evidence that in regard to other deaths they have not been sufficiently investigated already. It has nothing to do with valuing one life over another, we most emphatically do not. It has to do with keeping the promises made by our U.S. government to the Corrie family, and the promises it makes to all citizens to protect us in other lands.
So this is a plea, to fill the council chambers Tuesday evening, Sept 16th, 2134 Martin Luther King Jr. Way. Come a little early between 6:30 and 6:55, and fill out a card to speak. If your name is chosen (names are chosen at random), you may cede your time to others if you are not prepared to speak. We especially will like to hear from a diverse community and residents of Berkeley. We ask that comments be kept positive, praising the City Council's action. You may also choose to email the City Council and thank them for their action (Go to http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/Elected/default.htm to look up contact info for the Council and Mayor) , and if at all possible please come to the city council meeting.
September 16th is the 6 month anniversary of Rachel Corrie's death, when she was run over by an Israeli military-operated Caterpillar bulldozer while protecting a Palestinian home in Rafah, Gaza. Rachel was a volunteer with the International Solidarity Movement.

I am here for the first time, looking for progressive and leftist opinions. This is what I found:

"David Duke, on the otherhand, is obviously a racist, especially where it concerns Blacks, however, much of what he says about Zionism and Zionist Jews rings true and not only that but he provides the evidence so you can do you own research. And David Duke on the otherhand is in jail now thanks to his Zionist political enemies on trumped up charges of "tax evasion" of some sort-- he's a political prisoner, make no doubt about it."

I don't think I'll be back.

People get so freaked out about racist David Duke, but not about the Zionist racists that are running our U.S. foreign policy! What is wrong with this picture?

The Zionists have so brainwashed Americans, including White Christian Americans, in fact, especially White Christian Americans, that OMIGOD-- any mention of David Duke is horrifying! That's just how the Zionists want you to think. And yet, have you read anything by him about Zionism? No! Of course you haven't! You have been so propagandized to think that he would have absolutely nothing of value to say without even reading anything of his--- you wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole!

YET, you WILL read the Zionist propaganda of William Safire, of Thomas Friedman, of Elliott Abrams, of Daniel Pipes all easily found in our U.S. mainstream corporate media... won't you? All of these Zionists to one degree or another are racists and don't believe that Palestinians should have equal rights in their own ancestral homeland. If the Israeli government has to pressure the non-Jews into leaving one way or another by making their lives miserable in order to maintain a JEWISH STATE, so be it--- that's how these Zionists think. The kind of pressure we are talking about includes home demolitions, curfews, roadblocks, random shooting into crowds and apartment building, "targeted" extrajudicial assasinations that kill and maim dozens of civilians as "collateral damage", and so on. Our tax dollars is supporting this violent, blatant racism.

Abrams in his book "How can Jews survive in America?' (what a ludicrous title) says Jews should not marry non-Jews, and that Jews should go to Christian churches to create alliances for Israel, a country which is committing ethnic cleansing against Palestinian Muslims and Christians. Christians are subject to a year in jail if they hand out any literature to Jews in Israel. Christians, in general, have been duped, bought out, and brainwashed by the Zionists, in the media, in the churches, in our government.

Why is it that David Duke is reviled for being a racist, but Abrams, Perle, Wolfowitiz, Safire, Pipes, and so on, are not, but in fact, they are rewarded with influential positions and accolades in America? Why do Americans accept double standards when it comes to dealing with the blantant racism of Zionists?

NO racists should be tolerated and especially in American governmental posts and in the media!

one of the editors: "We suspect Gehrig."

You poor little men with poor little minds.

@%<

You know, I fuckin' organize, I take to the streets, I read, I write, I am as integral to grassroots organizing as everyone else, but I tell you, I'm pretty sick of the blatant anti-semitism swirling around on this website. It's not anti-zionism, I imagine most of you people don't really know what zionism means anyways, and if you did, you would stop the patriarchal linking of zionists and fascists and jews. (1+1+1, for those of you who don't fucking know.) Really, I'm sick of feeling attacked. Being jewish is hard enough, there are like 6 million of us left in a world of 6 billion plus people. Open your fucking minds out there! We're struggling for human rights, and not exclusive humans- just... fuck, I'm sick of justifying this shit to you meat head, privileged white-guilt on a cross a carrying yuppies. Leave jews out of it! Government is government. THAT is the issue, that will always be the issue, stop being fucking rednecks, you so called "activists". Sheesh.

quote:
=================
you would stop the patriarchal linking of zionists and fascists and jews
=================

are you a Peruvian convert, Melissa?


==================
How 90 Peruvians became the latest Jewish settlers
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,10551,770315,00.html

When a delegation of rabbis travelled to Lima to convert a group of South American Indians to Judaism, they added just one condition: come and live with us in Israel. As soon as these new Jews arrived in the country, they were bussed straight to settlements in the disputed territories. So how are they coping? Neri Livneh tracks them down

Wednesday August 7, 2002
The Guardian

In a prefab structure at a school in the West Bank settlement of Alon Shvut, a few dozen people are sitting and singing a popular Hasidic song: "The whole world is a very narrow bridge and the main thing is not to be afraid." They are singing with feeling, even though most of them don't understand a word of the song. As is the custom in religious schools, the class is divided into a men's section and a women's section. The women are wearing hats and the men's heads are covered by knitted skullcaps. The men and women alike have distinct South American Indian features.
Almost unnoticed, a new branch of Jews is springing up in the settlements, Jews who are connected to Israel and all things Israeli by a very narrow bridge indeed. They have yet to visit Tel Aviv or Haifa, and have never even heard of Degania, the very first kibbutz, or its neighbour, Kinneret. Miki Kratsman, the photographer, and I had the privilege of being the first secular Jews they had ever met. Nevertheless, they are fired with a historic sense of their right to this land.

"We are of Indian origin," says Nachshon Ben-Haim, formerly Pedro Mendosa, "but in Peru, in the Andes, there is no Indian culture left. Everyone has become Christian, and before we became Jews, we also were Christians who went to church."

The miracle of the creation of this community of new Jews has to be chalked up wholly and exclusively to the credit - or debit - of the chief rabbinate of Israel. At the order of the Ashkenazi chief rabbi, Israel Meir Lau, a delegation of rabbis travelled to Peru. During their two weeks in the country, they converted 90 people to Judaism, most of them of Indian origin.

"We found a small river between Trujillo and Cajamarca and everyone immersed in it. We took the people from Lima to be immersed in the ocean and then we also had to remarry them all in a Jewish ceremony according to the halakha [Jewish religious law]," says Rabbi Eliyahu Birnbaum, a judge in the conversion court and a member of the delegation.

The rabbis converted only those who said they were willing to emigrate to Israel immediately. "We laid down that condition because in the remote areas where they live, there is no possibility of keeping kosher and it was important for us to ensure that they would live in a Jewish environment. In fact, there was no need for the condition because they were in any case imbued with a love of the land of Israel in a way that is hard to describe," says Rabbi David Mamo, the deputy president of the conversion court.

"Because we saw their enthusiasm for the land of Israel, we understood that conversion was part of a complete process including aliyah [immigration to Israel], so we told them: just as you live in a community here, you should join a community in Israel, too," says Birnbaum. "Rabbi Mamo and I both live in Gush Etzion [a group of settlements south of Bethlehem] and we believe that when it comes to community-oriented settlements, there are none that can compare with Alon Shvut and Karmei Tzur [both in Gush Etzion], which said they would be willing to absorb the new immigrants."

[...]

The new Jews have not encountered similar difficulties in the settlements, where they have been integrated smoothly. "Now, thank God, we live where the patriarch, Abraham, the number one Jew, roamed," says Ephraim Perez, who until two weeks ago, in Trujillo, Peru, was known as Nilo.

It turns out that Peru also had an ancient Jewish forefather of its own: "It is known that Christopher Columbus was a Jew," Batya Mendel who, until two months ago, was a Peruvian citizen whose first name was Blanca says. "And since he was in Peru, many Jews have been born there."

Columbus was Jewish? "They always say that about him in Peru, and he visited many places in Peru and left Jewish blood everywhere," says Mandel. "There are also a lot of Christian sects that obey the commandments since then. When we were Christians, we also observed all kinds of commandments, such as Pascha [sic] and Shavuot."

So, in fact, are of Jewish origin? "No. In Peru everyone is a mixture of natives and all kinds of conquerors, but there was a great deal of Jewish influence through the Marranos [Jews living during the Spanish Inquisition who secretly kept their faith despite converting to Christianity] and through Columbus. When we were still Christians and went to the church we observed some commandments such as Shabbat and holidays."

Rabbis Mamo and Birnbaum, along with officials of the settlements, refer to the 90 new Jews as the "third aliyah " as there were two previous groups who came over from Peru in 1990 and 1991.

[...]
According to Ben-Haim, "the idea that there are Palestinians here at all is a lie. The Palestinian people never existed and only when the Jews leave their country, the Arabs come in and try to take over and prove they have a right here. But we cannot agree to that because the Lord gave the land to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob for all time, and all the Jews will be united and love the Lord with all their heart, and then all the problems will be solved."

[...]
Ben-Haim says that after he finishes the Hebrew course, he may join the army, "because I wasn't in the army in Peru and that is something I lack, and also because I want to defend the country and if there is no choice, I will kill Arabs. But I am sure that Jews kill Arabs only for self-defence and justice, but Arabs do it because they like to kill."

He bases this belief on his scientific view of Judaism: "The Arab has the instinct of murder and killing like all gentiles, and only Jews do not have that instinct - that is a genetic fact."
======================================


"birthright" Israel?

"birthright" Canaan?

birthright Palestine?


Have you read the portion of U.S. President Woodrow Wilson's 1919 King-Crane Commission Report concerning Zionism, Melissa?

Are you quite sure that Zionism isn't racist?

What exactly were you trying to prove to Melissa, again? I thought you insisted real Jews cannot be Zionists nor fascists...

P.S.: it's nothing short of marvelous that you, an avid anti-Zionist, didn't strike out the proper term, disputed territories, and write "occupied territories" instead...or were you just sloppy?

Melissa, while claiming to be a black Jewish lesbian, berated sfimc contributors for equating zionism with racism.

I responded with direct quotes from the Guardian on the "aliya" of 90 Peruvians who converted to a form of Judaaism that mandates emigration to "the promised land". I then offered Melissa the opportunity to reflect on "birthrights" for Cannanites, born -again Jews and Palestinians.

I'm not sure how anyone can do so without concluding that Der Judenstaat was built on religio-racist foundations.

I guess that's why my tag-along-tic prefers to fish for herrings rather than attend to the substance of my post.


Which reminds me ---- do you think you will ever find a few moments to discuss the content of United States President Woodrow WIlson's 1919 King-Crane Commission Report on Zionism?

???

Melissa didn't berate posters for equating Zionism with racism. If your reading comprehension is at least reasonable and you're not manufacturing a straw man, you would realize that if you reread her post.

Assuming you were being honest about your account, please know there's no form of Judaism which requires emigration to Israel. There ARE Jewish currents, such as Zionism, which urges and encourages Jews to move to Israel as opposed to anti-Zionist ones, such as the Neturei Karta you're familiar with. Jewish forms are: Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist and Orthodox. NK and some other non-Zionist groups are ultra-Orthodox; there are many Jewish Orthodox Zionist currents or groups, as well as conservative and reform. Hope this elaboration has helped dispel some of your misconceptions.

Can'anites are no more; their descendants are either Jewish or Christian (the Lebanese Maronites). In any rate, your way of "extending " an "invitation" to "reflect" was pretty peculiar. One would be hard pressed to understand your intention had you not explained.

I would claim modern Israel was built on religio-ethnic foundations. Not on Fascist ones.

I might get around to discussing the 1919 King-Crane Commission Report. If you stop all forms of Jew baiting and strictly focus on Zionism, that is.

anti-CFB: "Melissa didn't berate posters for equating Zionism with racism. If your reading comprehension is at least reasonable and you're not manufacturing a straw man, you would realize that if you reread her post."

You are correct, anti-CFB! Melissa was berating sfimc anti-zionist contributors for linking Zionists with fascists and Jews - not Zionists and racists like Ben-Haim and his rabbid Rabbi teachers. Had I not unintentionally misinterpreted Melissa's complaint--and I thank you for highlighting my error--I would have provided an extract from the Irgun Zvai Leumi's proposal to the Nazis Concerning the Solution to the Jewish Question, eg:

Fundamental Features of the Proposal of the National Military Organization in Palestine (Irgun Zvai Leumi) Concerning the Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe and the Participation of the NMO in the War on the Side of Germany (1941) It is often stated in the speeches and utterances of the leading statesmen of National Socialist Germany that a prerequisite of the New Order in Europe requires the radical solution of the Jewish question through evacuation (“Jew-free Europe”). The evacuation of the Jewish masses from Europe is a precondition for solving the Jewish question; but this can only be made possible and complete through the settlement of these masses in the home of the Jewish people, Palestine, and through the establishment of a Jewish state in its historic boundaries. The solving in this manner of the Jewish problem, thus bringing with it once and for all the liberation of the Jewish people, is the objective of the political activity and the years-long struggle of the Israeli freedom movement, the National Military Organization (Irgun Zvai Leumi) in Palestine. The NMO, which is well-acquainted with the goodwill of the German Reich government and its authorities towards Zionist activity inside Germany and towards Zionist emigration plans, is of the opinion that: Common interests could exist between the establishment of a new order in Europe in conformity with the German concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they are embodied by the NMO. Cooperation between the new Germany and a renewed folkish-national Hebraium would be possible and, The establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich, would be in the interest of a maintained and strengthened future German position of power in the Near East. Proceeding from these considerations, the NMO in Palestine, under the condition the above-mentioned national aspirations of the Israeli freedom movement are recognized on the side of the German Reich, offers to actively take part in the war on Germany’s side.

 

As for your allegation of "Jew-baiting", please provide both a precision definition of the category "Jew", and a quoted example of my "baiting."

Then we can discuss the Zionism-specific content of US President Woodrow Wilson's 1919 King-Crane Commission Report and the legitimacy of deity-covenented / Judenstaat-sanctioned birthrights for Brooklyn-born fundamentalists and Peruvian coverts.......yes?

should be Peruvian converts - not coverts.

Where should I begin...
I don't understand why you're addressing me instead of Melissa. Do you lack the nerve? After all, she hasn't answered your questios yet.

Your first link ("linking Zionists with fascists and Jews) is a forgery! The Stern Gang (Lehi, Lohamei Herut Israel, sfdfddfgdgdg) *split* away from NMO on July 17, 1940 (see http://www.etzel.org.il/english/ac05.htm)! I've known this much prior to fetching that URL.
Your second link ("Ben-Haim and his rabbid Rabbi teachers") is disfunctional...I also don't know which Ben-Haim you alluded to.

Now, as far as the "Fundamental Features" proposal goes, that too is a forgery!
I know the LEHI's leader at the time, A. Stern, indeed wrote to the Germans claiming an idealogical affinity and offering to fight in the war on the side of Germany (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Lehi). Yet in all probability, the LEHI aka Stern Gang wanted to help the Germans by fighting the British out of Palestine and not dispatch LEHI troops to fight for the Germans in Europe or elsewhere. The NMO NEVER proposed to help Germany. All claims to the contrary are lies.

I don't want to quibble about the exact definition of Jew baiting. I remember you once clipped a photo of Baruch Goldstein with a logo of "Birthright Israsel" superimposed on his real or photomontaged T-shirt. You didn't explain what you were trying to do and the photo had no connection to the verbal contents that followed. I know what I saw and will not get bogged down in further discussion about whether or not it constituted Jew baiting.

The Peruvian converts agreed to convert to Judaism and move to the disputed territories of their free will, which is much more than can be said of other South American and other natives worldwide who had been converted to Catholicism or other Christian denominations either by force, blackmail, trickery or God knows what else. I've seen no one complain about this mammoth tragedy on this IMC or others.
When all anti-Zionists make a fuss also about Islamic birthrights in Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries, and Germany's preferencial treatment of ethnic Germans, to name but two examples of many, on a par with the fuss they make about Jewish birthrights, then I guess we'll get around to the 1919 King-Crane Commission Report...or are you going to complicate the matter even further?

So will you re-address Melissa?

"OR MAYBE IN THE HAIGHT AGAINST THE URBAN PUNKSTERS/GOTHS!!"

I'll tell those wack "punks" to go fish today on my way to Bound Together Books...

You'll have them punksters/goths shivering with fear in their metal studded boots like a Blood/Crip at an all-white picnic in the suburbs! And don't forget to tell them to go to H-E double toothpicks too, before you demand their lunch money! (But don't forget to take off your wire rim circle coke bottle eyeglasses first 'Milhouse'! Hahaha!!)

Stern/Irgun - clarification:
========================
Stern’s single-minded belief, that the only solution to the Jewish catastrophe in Europe was the end of British domination of Palestine, had a logical conclusion. They could not defeat Britain with their own puny forces, so they looked to her enemies for salvation. They came into contact with an Italian agent in Jerusalem, a Jew who worked for the British police, and in September 1940 they drew up an agreement whereby Mussolini would recognise a Zionist state in return for Sternist co-ordination with the Italian Army when the country was to be invaded. [5] How seriously either Stern or the Italian agent took these discussions has been debated. Stern feared that the agreement might be part of a British provocation. [6] As a precaution, Stern sent Naftali Lubentschik to Beirut, which was still controlled by Vichy, to negotiate directly with the Axis. Nothing is known of his dealings with either Vichy or the Italians, but in January 1941 Lubentschik met two Germans – Rudolf Rosen and Otto von Hentig, the philo-Zionist, who was then head of the Oriental Department of the German Foreign Office. After the war a copy of the Stern proposal for an alliance between his movement and the Third Reich was discovered in the files of the German Embassy in Turkey. The Ankara document called itself a Proposal of the National Military Organisation (Irgun Zvai Leumi) Concerning the Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe and the Participation of the NMO in the War on the side of Germany. (The Ankara document is dated 11 January 1941. At that point the Sternists still thought of themselves as the “real” Irgun, and it was only later that they adopted the Fighters for the Freedom of Israel – Lohamei Herut Yisrael – appellation.)
http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/ch26.htm
===================================


quote:
================================
[Peruvian convert] Ben-Haim says that after he finishes the Hebrew course, he may join the army, "because I wasn't in the army in Peru and that is something I lack, and also because I want to defend the country and if there is no choice, I will kill Arabs. But I am sure that Jews kill Arabs only for self-defence and justice, but Arabs do it because they like to kill."

He bases this belief on his scientific view of Judaism:

"The Arab has the instinct of murder and killing

like all gentiles,

and only Jews do not have that instinct

- THAT IS A GENETIC FACT."

- http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,770235,00.html
[corrected URL]
=================================


Is this why you aren't willing to attempt a precision definition of "Jew", anti-CFB?




anti-CFB - quote:
===========================================================

What exactly were you trying to prove to Melissa, again? ...

Melissa didn't berate posters for equating Zionism with racism.
===========================================================


anti CFB, again:
===========================================
I don't understand why you're addressing me instead of Melissa. Do you lack the nerve? After all, she hasn't answered your questios yet.
==========================================


If you weren't trying to provoke a dialogue, then why did you respond on Melissa's behalf in the first place, anti-CFB? I don't understand.

Kee betachbulot ta'ase lecha milchama?


Are you ready to discuss the content of US President Woodrow Wilson's 1919 King-Crane Commission Report and the legitimacy of deity-covenented/Judenstaat-sanctioned "birthrights" for Peruvian converts and Brooklyn-born fundamentalists...yet?

the confusion. Now I know why I branded that document a forgery. That was my mistake. Still, I didn't deny LEHI aka Stern Gang offered the Germans help, yet I didn't quite understand what you were trying to prove. Were you intimating it was official or semi-official Zionist policy at the time?
The Zionist mainstream and leadership of the time (who also were at the helm of the Yishuv - the pre-State of Israel entity in Palestine) was what would later become known as the Labor party in Israel. They vehemently objected to any notion of assisting Germany during WW2. Stern Gang was a fringe militia. You see now?

As to the opinions of Peruvian converts or other Jews: every Jew has his/her opinion on the matter. Are you trying to tarnish Zionism or Judaism for the opinions of certain Jews or Zionists? You haven't said so outright, but getting such am impression is plausible as sure as hell. Would it be justified to tarnish the Catholic Church or whatever denomination you belong to just because some of your co-religionists hold similar convictions? I'm not sure why you want to see a precision definition of "Jew" posted. You have a problem with Jews, or is your problem with Zionism and Zionists??

Perhaps you're trying to show off by quoting the Mossad's motto in Hebrew, or maybe you obsess on it. Perhaps you learned Hebrew somewhere...

Click here:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/04/120352_comment.php#120573

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/05/127448_comment.php#127704

I am not interested in your opinion of the beliefs and practices pertaining to various branches of the Jewish ***religion*** - I am interested in your thoughts on the legitimacy of birthrights for Peruvian converts and Brooklyn-born fundamentalists.

That is why I carefully chose the words to frame my request, anti-CFB.

Let me run it by you again:


==================================
Can we discuss
THE CONTENT OF
US President Woodrow Wilson's 1919 King-Crane Commission Report

and

THE LEGITIMACY OF
deity-covenented/Judenstaat-sanctioned "birthrights" for Peruvian converts and Brooklyn-born fundamentalists?
================================

----> CONTENT of report
----> LEGITIMACY of birthrights

capice?

You made a straw man argument and crushed it in the beginning of your post. But more important, I'm not sure where you're trying to get by discussing issues pertaining to Jewish converts from a different perspective each time around. I'm compelled to ask again, you have a problem with Jews, or is your problem with Zionism and Zionists?? You want to discuss Zionism per se, or also Jewish issues?

Another thing: what exactly was your objective digging up the Stern Gang's offer to help the Nazis in 1941 (though it never extended them any help. The Irgun never offered to help the Nazis and didn't help either)? Seems like you keep digging up things from the past that involve Zionism and Israel, yet you never tell us what your agenda is, or what it is you're trying to prove. This is quite cryptic.

For the time being, I will discuss neither topic you want. Why won't I?
(A) notwithstanding the comic relief you gave us all on the other thread and one editor removing my post, you refused to accept the truth about the USS Liberty incident. If you come forward and accept the truth, namely that Israel attacked the ship by accident because it was thought as an Egyptian ship - without reservations and/or qualifications - we could then get down to business, provided
(B) you answer my questions in the paragraphs above, and
(C) my posts won't get deleted for the URL/S I enclose. I'm SICK AND TIRED of seeing messages I and other "Zionists" post getting removed for containing URLs to any site the editors deem inappropriate ***for whatever reason*** at their whim, while allowing you to enclose **ANY** URL you see fit, irrespective of how immoral its contents or its truthfulness. ****I'M FED UP WITH IT!!!****
Now, kindly email the editors and convince them to let me make my case/s without having my posts removed or myself banned. You may grin and laugh away now if you so desire, but that won't advance your wishes here.

Comprende?

I saw that many of you posted some nonsense about Ashkenazim being white, and being racists just like the Nazis and the KKK.

Its obvious that you people have no clue what you are talking about. Ashkenazi Jews are everything but white. Many have olive/brown skin and black hair. This is why Hitler killed them. They were certainly not white. Its clear that you have never seen to many ashkenazim, especially in Israel, because if you did, you would know that they were indistinguable from their Sephardic Jewish brothers.

And its pretty offensive that you equate Ashkenazim to the KKK, since the white supremacy groups despise Ashkenazi Jews for being semites.

Ashkenazi Zionist Jews are Jewish White Supremacists, mostly from Russia and Eastern Europe. They think they are superior to everyone, including the olive-skinned Jews known as Sephardic.

For those who want to know more about Rachel Corrie, check out http://www.distanceeddesign.com/rachel/

Zionists have serious mental illnesses, including they are in constant denial about the truth about themselves and their ugly racist apartheid state of Israel and they constantly project their own hatred onto others; they constantly lie and call others names; they never can keep on topic and are the masters of obfuscation; they never can forgive others and always seek revenge; they believe in the "WE win-you lose", "WE'RE OK-you're not OK " mindset; they are completely materialistic and devoid of any spirituality. They think they are superior to all non-Jews. They are to be pitied but not tolerated. They are to be completely marginalized and shunned.

you are not describing zionists, but a sect that coniders themselves to be Jews.

Lets list a few things that the Zionists are guilty of:

1. Being morally corrupt people, in comparison to the educated Palestinians who have contributed so much to civilization.

2. Oppressing the "Sephardim jews"
3. Killing ISM members who play tag with bulldozers
4. Leaving anti-semitic countries, and death for that matter, and settling in their ancient homeland.
5. Causing 9-11
6.Sinking the titanic
7. Killing the dinosaurs
8. Causing global warming
9. Being rich and powerful, inspite of being 0.1% of the worlds population.
10. Being guilty for world wide anti-semiticm in Europe, Egypt (where Mein Kampf is a best seller)

zionists did not orchestrate the attack in 9-11.
the arabs did it, but the arabs did not do so before promptly warning israeli nationals to evacuate that vacinity.
As repeatedly reported by Haaretz again./

zionists are not they aren't guilty of everything they aren't

Windy Wendy: "Zionists have serious mental illnesses yammity yammity yammity they are completely materialistic and devoid of any spirituality. They think they are superior to all non-Jews. "

Not all non-Jews, Windy Wendy, just whacks like you.

@%<

Windy Wendy: "Ashkenazi Zionist Jews are Jewish White Supremacists, mostly from Russia and Eastern Europe. They think they are superior to everyone, including the olive-skinned Jews known as Sephardic. "

You know, Wendy, you're going more and more off the deep end all the time. Here's a hint: if you want to look like you're not an antisemite, don't defend David Duke.

@%<

ever notice how gehrig prefers to try to smear and call his opponents names instead of address the issues?

typical zionist for you.

so what if anyone is even anti-semitic? that's besides the point. it's a free country, and we don't have to love zionist jews and their racist ideas. and we shouldn't have to support the zionist jewish state of israel either. as a matter of fact, it is our moral duty NOT to support zionism and the racist state of Israel.

it's our moral duty to make sure no one is discriminated against because of religion, etc. and even if we don't like zionist jews, they should not be discriminated against, nor should they get any special favors or treatment.

Windy Wendy: "so what if anyone is even anti-semitic? that's besides the point. it's a free country, and we don't have to love zionist jews and their racist ideas."

To Windy Wendy, antisemitism is beside the point. Sorta sez it all right there, doesn't it. She's willing to excuse antisemitism in the name of fighting racism.

@%<

Or doesn't gehrig the gasbag give the distinct impression that he doesn't like Anti-Zionists and people who stick up for Palestinians' rights including their right to return, especially the Gentile Anti-Zionists? All that dripping sarcasm, all his smug condescension, all the name-calling, all the fake accusations he throws out about things he claims that anti-Zionists say, all the time he spends defending racist, apartheid Israel... do you think deep down inside he just really feels all warm and cozy about gentile anti-Zionists? Something tells me that gehrig is OMIGOD... an anti-Gentile! Someone, please call the Anti-Zionist Defamation League!

Windy Wendy, showing her hand a bit more: "Or doesn't gehrig the gasbag give the distinct impression that he doesn't like Anti-Zionists and people who stick up for Palestinians' rights including their right to return, especially the Gentile Anti-Zionists?"

Oh, this is getting interesting! Tell me more about why you think I'm anti-gentile, Windy Wendy. Note -- your own "impressions" mean exactly zilch, as would those of any whackjob of your caliber. Please post facts documenting my alleged attitude against gentiles or admit that you haven't got any.

Windy Wendy: "yammity yammity yammity Something tells me that gehrig is OMIGOD... an anti-Gentile!"

And when it's through telling her that, the same something starts saying "Redrum! Redrum! Redrum!"

@%<

he's always showing us how very concerned he is about his fellow American citizens and human beings in Israel (but only if they are Jewish that is!)

Claimed I was anti-Gentile, and when asked to prove it, wandered off mumbling into the corner, poor kid.

Hey, Windy Wendy, posted any articles from Holocaust deniers lately? It's been a week since the last time.

@%<

....and your telling me that 'aint anti-goyitism, gehrig?

would you like me to demonstrate *more* anti-goyitism from the chosen -warriors of Jehovah Elohim?

and Gehrig - care to discuss the zionism-specific content of US President Woodrow Wilson's 1919 King-Crane Commission Report?

It's been nearly a week since I've asked a zionist....

I'm beginning to think CFB is one of Windy Wendy's aliases.
What do you think, Gehrig?

anti-cfb - I was speaking to gehrig. If you wish to answer on his/her behalf, then (note the if/then algorithm [step by step problem solving procedure {al_Khwarizmi, Baghdad,, 835CE})] attend to the *substance* of my question.

ie: the zionism-specific content of US president Woodrow Wilson's 1919 King-Crane Commission Report.

'kay?

It's anyone's guess what the hell made you think I was addressing you.
It's not for you to decide who I may talk to just because you're around.
If you want a discussion on your "substance", you must provide me with what I demanded from before on another thread. Don't act as if you don't know what I mean; that sort of behavior won't make me start playing ball with you.

please be specific - or I'll keep asking..........

quote:
=================================
[Peruvian convert to THE CULT of ZION] Ben-Haim says that after he finishes the Hebrew course, he may join the army, "because I wasn't in the army in Peru and that is something I lack, and also because I want to defend the country and if there is no choice, I will kill Arabs. But I am sure that Jews kill Arabs only for self-defence and justice, but Arabs do it because they like to kill."

He bases this belief on his scientific view of Judaism: "The Arab has the instinct of murder and killing like all gentiles, and only Jews do not have that instinct - that is a genetic fact."

Guardian, August 7, 2002
=========================================

???

Actually, my demands are on THIS thread (Sep18, 2003 at 06:40 AM). I was explicit and won't discuss them anymore.

quote: @ 06:40am
===========
You made a straw man argument and crushed it in the beginning of your post. [demonstrate it - step by step] But more important, I'M NOT SURE WHERE YOU'RE TRYING TO GET [my emph] by discussing issues pertaining to Jewish converts from a different perspective each time around.
======================================

RE-QUOTE - 06:40am
======================

"birthright" Israel?

"birthright" Canaan?

birthright Palestine?
=======================


re-quote: 08:19am
======================
I ...offered Melissa the opportunity to reflect on "birthrights" for Cannanites, born -again Jews and Palestinians.

I'm not sure how anyone can do so without concluding that Der Judenstaat was built on religio-racist foundations.

I guess that's why my tag-along-tic prefers to fish for herrings rather than attend to the substance of my post.
================================


re-quote:
================================
Then we can discuss the Zionism-specific content of US President Woodrow Wilson's 1919 King-Crane Commission Report and the legitimacy of deity-covenented / Judenstaat-sanctioned BIRTHRIGHTS FOR Brooklyn-born fundamentalists and Peruvian coverts.......yes?
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QUOTE:
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I'm compelled to ask again, you have a problem with [BIRTHRIGHTS FOR BROOKLYN-BORN FUNDAMENTALISTS AND PERUVIAN CONVERT] Jews, or is your problem with Zionism and Zionists [DEFENDING/IGNORING/SUPPORTING THAT "BIRTHRIGHT" WHILE DENYING IT TO PALESTINIANS WHO WERE ACTUALLY BORN IN PALESTINE??
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You got it right, antiCFB!!!

Wow!!!

btw, anti-CFB...

I'd rather appreciate from you a precision definition of the category of human you label "Jewish"....


thanks in advance.....

anti-CFB: "I'm beginning to think CFB is one of Windy Wendy's aliases. What do you think, Gehrig?"

No, I don't think so. Windy Wendy has a certain set of memes and phrases that she sticks together like Lego blocks and which give her away instantly. It's all those little linguistic clues that give her away, even when she tries to disguise herself by typing in all lower case or something infantile like that.

anti-CFB has a completely different set of memes he clatters away at. Notice, for example, his repeated use of the phrase "chosen ones" -- a dig not at Zionism but Judaism. Windy Wendy has taken her whacks at Judaism, to be sure, but not this particular one.

Besides, doesn't CFB claim to be from Australia? Windy Wendy's on the West Coast.

@%<

I'm beginning to think anti-CFB is one of Gehrig's aliases.

What do you think, Count Folke Bernadotte?

He keeps endless notes on all the anti-Zionists but who the f*** cares?

Windy Wendy: "gehrig spies for the ADL, He keeps endless notes on all the anti-Zionists"

Nah, Windy Wendy, I just have a good memory for detail, and you leave a very obvious trail.

But, gee, Windy Wendy, weren't you just complaining about how I supposedly make up all sorts of empty charges and accusations? Maybe you can entertain us by laying out what your presumably massive evidence that I'm in any way associated with the ADL, seeing how I'm not even a member of B'nei Brith? Because otherwise, without evidence, you end up looking like a mad wretch flapping in the breeze -- in fact, you end up looking like Windy Wendy.

@%<

So be it!

Dear gehrig,
A truly brilliant response, fellow Zionist stormtrooper! 'Windy Wendy' or whatever name you so maturely label her is nothing more than an antizionist humanist! She spouts outrageous and unpopular lies to make her point, unlike we Zionists who spout politically correct lies, denying the war crimes committed in Jenin and accusing everyone of our critics of antisemitism.
People like Wendy should learn that there is only one proper way to distort the truth- the Zionist way.
Everything else is wrong and must be destroyed by our American bulldozers and the CNN propaganda network.

Heil Sharon!
- A concerned Zionist

In their letter, reported originally on Channel 2 television and in Yediot Aharonot, the pilots wrote: "We new and old soldiers refuse these illegal and immoral orders that have been carried out by the State of Israel. We, who were brought up to love Israel and to contribute to the Zionist ideal, cannot take part in operations in the center of populated civilian areas, and refuse to endanger innocent Palestinian civilians."

Among the signatories of the letter is Brig.-Gen. Yiftah Spector (res.), who was a squadron leader during the 1973 Yom Kippur War and is one of the IAF's most decorated pilots. Air Force officials said that of the 27 signatories, only two were in positions in which they might be asked to take part in "targeted killing" strikes against Palestinian terrorist leaders, Army Radio reported.

According to the pilots' letter, other pilots serving in the IAF who had not signed the letter were participating in a "gray refusal," in which they were avoiding signing up for combat missions which could include operations in the territories.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?K33D42606

========================================== 5 Israelis detained for `puzzling behavior' after WTC tragedy Five Israelis who had worked for a moving company based in New Jersey are being held in U.S. prisons for what the Federal Bureau of Investigation has described as "puzzling behavior" following the terror attack on the World Trade Center in New York last Tuesday.[...] They are said to have had been caught videotaping the disaster and shouting in what was interpreted as cries of joy and mockery. Ha'Aretz, September 17, 2001 =========================================

Is self determination for ethnic groups racism? Then, let's apply this principle universally. However, only Jewish nationalism stands condemned, only the Jews are criticized for seeking national self-determination.

In a world that has proven itself to be hostile against Jews, or at best indifferent to Jewish suffering, the Jews have a right to demand national liberation, and to take it if it isn't granted by an unsympathetic world.

Jews historically have been a powerless people, everywhere a vulnerable minority and have thus paid the consequences dearly. Zionism is a movement of Jewish empowerment and those who advocate against Zionism are in reality advocating for disempowring the Jews, and making us once again vulnerable to genocide.

This explains the fierceness of the Israeli struggle to survive against the chauvinism and racism of the Arab nationalist cause.

All Israelis have to do is look at the way Arab nationalism has treated other non-Arabs in the region: genocide against the Kurds; apartheid against the non-Arab Berber majority in Morocco; genocide and slavery against the non-Arab peoples of southern Sudan.

Yet, progressives are generally silent about Arab atrocities. Virtually nothing is said or done to protest the treatment of non-Arab ethnic and national groups in the Middle East. The non-Arabs of the region are truly the voiceless, and the Left ought to be ashamed for not being their voices. Instead, the Left has become the mouthpiece for natinal Arab nationalist excesses, blindly supporting the most extreme form of this nationalism -- either by sins of commission, or by the deafening silence.

Instead, the Left focuses all its energies on vilifying, objectifying, de-humanizing Israelis.

The Palestinians have been mistreated by the Israelis, and this must end. I want Israel to get out of the occupied territories, evacuate the settlements and seek peace with the Palestinian people. Justice must be done for the Palestinians, but absolute justice for the Palestinians is an absolute injustice for the Jews, who would be disempowered.

If peace is the actual goal of most people on this list, then we all would be trying to find the best compromise formula that would allow the Israelis and Palestinians to partition the land they each passionately claim, and make peace. Demanding a zero-sum ending (i.e. Israel ceases to exist) is unrealistic, unjust, and ultimately will not bring any kind of peace.

Those who agitate for Israel's destruction are taking the most extremist position and are no friends of peace.


The only standard by which Jews can be judged to be a nation is the standard of self-identification. If Jews say they are a people, they are a people. Period. And, Jews have been saying they are a people for thousands of years.

Every people has a narrative, and the Jewish narrative is that of peoplehood. The Hebrew words Jews have used for thousands of years to describe themselves are: "ahm" or "goi" -- both of which mean "nation."

In all Jewish sources, classical to modern, the Jews have related to non-Jews as one nation relating to other nations.

Indeed, the word "Jew" in English means nothing. In Hebrew -- the Jewish language -- the word for "Jew" is "Yehudi" which literally means "Judean" (a resident or descendant of the people who lived in Judea. )

The word "Judaism" comes directly from this geographic location of Judea (or Judah -- Yehudah in Hebrew).

To argue that Jews are not a people, not a nation, is to argue from a position of ignorance, and reveals malevolent intent.

Just as every other people has the right to self-definition, so do Jews. Just as denying such a right to Native Americans or Arabs, for example, is a form of racism, likewise to deny that right to Jews is a form of anti-Semitism.

Progressives all too often dismiss Jewish self-definition, and deny Jews what they readily grant others. This is hypocritical and discriminatory and opens one to a credible charge of engaging in anti-Semitism.

I was born and raised in Australia. Most of my ancestors appear to have been British. I don't categorize myself as "British".
Would it make sense to do so?


Most of my recent ancestors apear to have been practicing Catholics. I don't practice or preach Catholicism (quite the opposite), nor do I categorize myself as 'Catholic'.
Would it makes sense to do so?



Who is Jewish?

Can an atheist be Jewish?

If a Jew converts to Islam, does s/he remain Jewish?

If a Peruvian converts to Judaism, then reverts to Christianity, does s/he remain within the "peoplehood" of Jews? - or does s/he become a "stranger in [y]our midst"?

Does the "matriachal-lineage" hereditary aspect of Judaism apply to progeny of female converts?

May it be so!

>"Yehudi" which literally means "Judean"

"Jew" doesn't mean "resident of Judea."

"Judea" means "place where Jews live."

Before that, they lived in Egypt, and before that, in "Ur of the Chaldees."

There is a jewish people. I am a member of that people. Ever wonder why some people "look jewish?" And why some people "look italian?" Or why american black people often look different from someone from nigeria? Or why japanese people and malaysian people are both asian yet often look different? Or why indians from india look one way and asians from china look another? Or why jerry seinfeld, steven spielberg and many other jews have a "jewish look" to them that has nothing to do with whether they actually practice the religion or not?

The jews are a "people." It is also a religion, and anyone can convert to it, but the jews are definitely also "a people." All peoples have a homeland. The jews had one but got kicked around the world for 1300 years, and now they have it back.

The palestinians are not a separate people, not a separate ethnic group, don't have their own language, and were the SAME ARABS AS THE SYRIANS. THey are not some special group that was distinct in any way from the arabs right next door. Arabs have 20-something homelands. Islam, the religion, has 100% of saudia arabia. Jews now have a homeland too. Leave us alone and criticize the israeli government all you want but stop your evil propaganda campaign that making israel a non-jewish state and robbing the jews of their only little homeland is somehow the right thing to do.

And stop your "we object to how it came to be" bullshit, because if that was the case you'd also be objecting to about 75% of the world, which you may occasionally quickly do, but the BULK OF YOUR TIME in this matter appears to just single out the jews, yet you intentionally fail to apply the same standards to other places or people.

The matriachal descendants of Jacob

The Religion

The Genetic Convert

The Nation of People that will never be destroyed (unlike all the other nations)

The Zionist

---

Jews Not Zionists

This American Christian girl
was murdered by a "Palestinian" savage! Where's the outrage here! You Nazis are terrorists scum! Long live America and Israel!

This American Christian girl
was murdered by a "Palestinian" savage! Where's the outrage here! You Nazis are terrorists scum! Long live America and Israel!

This American Christian girl
was murdered by a "Palestinian" savage! Where's the outrage here! You Nazis are terrorists scum! Long live America and Israel!

REMEMBER the MUSLIM bombing of the American Embassies in Africa!

I don't know how many times I have seen this garbage about Ashkenazi Jews being "fake european jews."

I have news for you. I am ashkenazi, and I am not "white." I am of Hebrew descent just like my Sephardic brothers.

Ashkenazim have black hair and olive skin. You people are brainwashed fools. You obviously haven'te even seen ashkenazim. Ashkenazim look Arabic....maybe becaue they are middle eastern too.

You are hateful and sick people who have no idea what they are talking about.

Zionism plants false promises in the masses by selling them on the idea that it alone can restore security to the diaspora.
Like any advertizing campaign, wether it be for cosmetics reasons or otherwise, it misleads the targetted market with unrealistic expectations.
A facial cream may claim it will erase sun spots and minimize wrinkles if you buy it, but once you do, it does no such thing.
Same with Zionism, it claims to protect the people while failing to do just that.
When the clientle consequently rejects Zionism, for being a false prophet it does NOT reject the notion of security for Jews rather it embraces the notion despite Zionism's inability to deliver on their word.
This is likened to a clientle who rejects the facial cream that does not deliver on its promises but does not reject the promise itself, which is a younger looking face.