AUDIO LINK: THE WAR AGAINST THE PALESTINIANS -- by Baruch Kimmerling

The Politicide of Palestinian People
by Baruch Kimmerling
June 11, 2002


Because Ariel Sharon's latest, more moderate incarnation has been so warmly received by the Bush administration, the US media, and the American public, it is crucial to understand both the context of his transformation and the actual behavior of the Israeli government toward the Palestinian people. The general context is that the primary goal of the present government is the destruction of the Palestinian Authority and the dismantling of the Oslo Accords. This can only be defined as the politicide of the Palestinian people, a gradual but systematic attempt to cause their annihilation as an independent political and social entity.

For this reason, Ariel Sharon has skillfully used the brutal and indiscriminant forms of Palestinian resistance - especially the suicide bombers - to create a chain of mutually escalating responses in order to induce both the Israeli and international community to accept his goal. Using the fight against terrorism as a pretext, he aims to divide the Gaza Strip and West Bank into tiny enclaves rules by local strongmen while claiming he is supporting the "reformation" and "democratization" of the Palestinian authority.


The final aim is to continue the Jewish colonization of the so-called "Greater Land of Israel" until Israel's exclusive and non-reversible control of the territories has been attained. Some analysts suspect or hope that one outcome of this project is to make daily life so miserable for Palestinians that large numbers will emigrate from the territories' something that has, in fact, occurred during the last few years.

Sharon learned from the Lebanon fiasco that, while such policies must be implemented militarily, they must cause minimal casualties. Otherwise, both international agencies and public opinion could turn against them. To minimize Jewish casualties, it is necessary to deploy large, heavily armed forces and to use cruel techniques like razing whole neighborhoods. Resistance is met with heavy fire power, as was the case in Jenin.

The immediate aim of "Operation Defensive Shield" was to disarm "bases of terrorism" by capturing weapons and explosives and to "liquidate" or capture those involved in Palestinian armed resistance. In other words, the goal was to dismantle any Palestinian security forces, not only to hamper their ability to fight Israel, but to dissolve the internal authority of Arafat's regime as well. For the same reason, Israel security forces also assaulted most of the national and public infrastructure and institutions and even destroyed databases like the one used by the Palestinian Bureau of Statistic.

Additional goals of the incursions, sieges, and extra-judicial executions were to demonstrate Israeli military might and its willingness to use it and to prove to the Palestinians that there were defenseless against any wanton action. The Arab states barely paid lip service to the Palestinian cause, denouncing Israeli actions just enough to avoid internal unrest, apparently because they feared Israel was looking for a regional war. Such a war could distract the Israeli public from the severe economic and social crisis within Israel ( such as a high unemployment rate and the beginnings of hyperinflation) and serve as a cover for uprooting large numbers of Palestinians from the land, as happened during the 1948 war.

However, the international community, including the United States, will soon recognize that in an era during which every nation (including the Jewish and Palestinian nations) has the right to self-determination, politicide is a crime against humanity that is very close in its severity to genocide.

Baruch Kimmerling is a professor of sociology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. Among his recent books are The Invention and Decline of Israelieness (University of California Press) and with Joel S. Migdal Palestinians: The Making of a People (The Free Press and Harvard University Press).




Other Resources:

Recent reportbacks from Palestine at http://electronicintifada.net/v2/diaries.shtml
http://www.jewsagainsttheoccupation.org

The Meaning of Rachel Corrie - Of Dignity and Solidarity, Edward Said
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/Activism/The_Meaning_of_Rachel_Corrie.htm

Hic Road Map. Quo Vadis?, Gabriel Ash
http://www.yellowtimes.org/article.php?sid=1427&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

Under Cover of Righteousness, Shulamit Aloni
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=22&ItemID=3202

Threats of Forced Mass Expulsion, Amira Hass
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=22&ItemID=3077

Five-part series advocating ethnic cleansing in the name of a homogenous religious state with the usual, lies, distortions, euphemisms. 'Transfer' of Palestinians has become a common topic in Israeli political and academic discourse.
http://www.gamla.org.il/english/article/2002/july/b1.htm

Native American radio show comparing the struggles of Palestinians and Native Americans posted at http://www.nativeamericacalling.com/ (February 11 past shows)

For news and analysis from Palestine:
http://www.flashpoints.net/
http://www.zmag.org/meastwatch/meastwat.htm
http://www.between-lines.org
http://www.electronicintifada.net
http://www.ccmep.org
http://www.rafah.vze.com
http://www.imemc.org
http://www.palestinechronicle.com
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/
http://www.karameh.net
http://www.sphr.org
http://www.ismcanada.org
http://www.gush-shalom.org/

To get involved in Palestine solidarity in the US:
http://www.sustaincampaign.org
http://www.justiceinpalestine.org
http://www.al-awda.org
http://www.jewsagainsttheoccupation.org
http://www.palsolidarity.org

Torture and illegal detention of Palestinian political prisoners:
http://www.ppsmo.org/e-website/

Weekly report on Israeli human rights violations in Palestine:
http://www.pchrgaza.org/

I guess palestinians should have formed a state in 1948.

I guess when arabs had 100% complete control of the west bank, gaza and east jerusalem from 1948 to 1967 they should have formed a palestinian state, instead of just attacking israel over and over.

I guess from 1967 to the early 1990's, having the PLO and arafat as your leader wasn't the smartest move.

I guess palestinians should have accepted the land-for-peace offers, including the one in 2000.

I guess the palestinian intifadas, which have been nothing but self-destructive, weren't such a good idea.

Oh well.

thank you for a dose of reality and truth. More More

"I guess when arabs had 100% complete control of the west bank, gaza and east jerusalem from 1948 to 1967 they should have formed a palestinian state, instead of just attacking israel over and over."

I guess that when Zionists, who's invasion of European Jews took Palestine from 6% to 30% Jewish, but who calculatedly, premeditatedly and pretextually took over MOST of the country in 1948 (with plans to expand even further by force), leaving 70% of the native inhabitants with just a fraction of their country, the Palestinians should have just willingly taken what the Zionist invaders left, just like the people of any other country would have?

The Past is Past...
Now there are some 5,000,000 Jewish People in the area in question....So if there is to be any peace in the region Israel must be recognized and be allowed to exist....But to have real Peace we need to recognize the right of some 3,500,000 Palestinian People to have their country in the Whole of the West Bank and Gaza which is only 22% of what is TODAY, Israel, West Bank and Gaza....
This needs to be done now if the so called Road Map has any chance of working.

Deaths since the start of the Intifada, Who is killing whom anyway??? (Includes innocent children on both sides)
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

For a Possible Solution to this on going Conflict:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php

"The Past is Past...
by ANGEL Saturday August 30, 2003 at 05:14 AM"(Not the real ANGEL, was posted by a Coward who is afraid to use his/her own handle or How sad that he/she must be mentally deficient and cannot compose his/her own rebuttal to a posting.)
I'm really sorry....

The Real Correction:

Now there are more than 5,000,000 Jewish People in the area in question....So if there is to be any peace in the region the Palestinians must recognize Israel ....But to have Real Peace we first need to find a way to teach the some 3,500,000 Palestinian People not to behave like crazed idiots anymore....
This needs to be done now if the so called Road Map has any chance of working.

Deaths since the start of the Intifada, Who is murdering whom anyway??? (Includes innocent children on both sides)
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

The Palestinians murder Jews, the Jews almost never murder Palestinians...


For an Impossible Solution to this on going Conflict:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php

Why do you keep repeating yourself over and over and over and over again, ANGEL?

ANGEL has no life, no job and suffers from Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.
ANGEL also strikes me as a person with very little intelligence and even less brains.

Who are the Israelians?

Where's our baby?

http://www.metimes.com/2K3/issue2003-5/reg/cult_clone_baby.htm

So, "the past is past" when it's only some 55 years (well within an individual's possible lifetime) since Israel declared itself a state -- stealing Palestinian land every year (through legal pretexts similar to that of the Nazis against Jews) since its inception to today -- but NOT when it's some *2,000* years since there was once previously an *ANCIENT* Jewish country in part of Palestine. How 'conveeenient'.


Angel: "But to have real Peace we need to recognize the right of some 3,500,000 Palestinian People to have their country in the Whole of the West Bank and Gaza which is only 22% of what is TODAY, Israel, West Bank and Gaza.... This needs to be done now if the so called Road Map has any chance of working."

And what of the over 1-1.25 million Palestinians in Israel itself? Should they be forced to live in a "Jim Crow"/Apartheid, semi-theocratic, ideologically racist state or be (self-)ethnically cleansed to a Swiss cheese bantustan state? The only just solution is a unified Palestine with equal rights for all regardless of 'race'/ethnicity, religion, or gender -- the same resolution politically and legally adopted in South Africa, the U.S., Germany, and every other Western/civilized country.

The so-called "Road Map" is just another PR route to a dead end.

"Peace is not just the absence of violence -- it's the presence of justice." --Martin Luther King, Jr.

JA

ANGEL and I are looking for a solution. you dont get to a solution by taking a totally unacceptable position and waving it around all the time.

In effect all that does is encourage more killing. people like aaron would argue that we want a state as you suggest for the whole world but in order to do that you have to solve the little problems one at a time not insist on solving them all in one go.

if we seperate israel and palestine in such a way as they can stop hating each other then you have a better situation then you can concern yourself with human rights in israel (without the excuse of terrorism) and human rights in palestine without the excuse of oppression and terrorists.

In the long run who knows maybe EU NAFTA ASEAN etc will force Israel to become part of a larger group and the problem will be solved in the way you envisage. (just like 1984 but without the war).

As to the palistininas who live in israel I expet a census of them would say they do not want to go and live in palestine (if they did they would). Or even jordan. the fact that they prefer israel to jordan for example implies that the problem to which you are refering is one that can be solved in the above manner without us arbitrarily making israel into jordan or whatever you wish to propose.

for a change: "The so-called "Road Map" is just another PR route to a dead end."
Sooner or later the road map will shoot the shit.
That's what happens when American administrations allow their blueprints and plans to be steered by European mentality.

Apparently Angel doesn't qualify for JA's anti-Zionist and pro-Palestinian standards, though it can indeed be argued he complements and compounds Angel's arguments.
It also seems Angel is somewhat loath of parroting most of the lies JA spews.

Nelson Mandela and the ANC refused the "unacceptable solution" of a bantustan nation within/alongside the settler-colonial apartheid state of South Africa. Martin Luther King opposed the "unacceptable solution" of a separate state for Black-Americans within/alongside the U.S.. The choice between "Jim Crow"/apartheid or ethnic cleansing to a bantustan Swiss cheese nation, where Israel and Palestine will no more be separate than it is today, is not a solution with JUSTICE -- except to the oppressors. Equality for all seems to be the legally *acceptable* norm everywhere in the civilized/Western world -- and equally demanded by Jews -- except with Zionist Jews in Israel.

(I could just hear Scottie, had he been a white racist [well, he already is racist] Southerner during slavery: "What do you expect us to do!? To just turn millions of black slaves free!? To just give up our property!? To let millions of them just roam the country and settle where they want, in total equality!? It's morally, politically, economically, and *totally* *unacceptable*!! But that spewing liar Frederick Douglass keeps waving that around all the time.

And I could just hear Scottie, had he been a white racist [well, he already is racist] Southerner during American "Jim Crow" apartheid Segregation: "What do you expect us to do? Just let millions of black Southerners go free to enroll in our schools, go to our colleges, live in our neighborhods, sleep in our hotels, eat at our restaurants, swim in our pools, and be around our girls and women, to live in total equality!? To just give up our white-supremacy and our Christian way of life, our "white Christian states"!? It's morally, politically, economically, and *totally* *unacceptable*!! But that spewing liar Martin Luther King keeps waving that around all the time!!

We won't be able to racially/ethnically dominate society and the state anymore!! And THAT'S the point, isn't it? We would actually have to share power with those inferior heathens!!")

If we could change the name of Israel to a more neutral name like Seaside or Sealand or whatever I can see a one State Solution, then all the Palestinian in the West Bank and Gaza would be citizens of this new Neutral State…but we all know that Israel will never agree to give equal rights to all the Palestinian People, one of their fears is that by way of the vote the Palestinians will vote in a Palestinian to run the Country, Even though the U.S. and the rest of the might see this equal rights and freedom for all as a good thing, you will never convince Israel of this…

This is why the two State solution has been tossed around for so many years….This is why the Road Map is based on a two State Solution…

The problem I have with the road map is that it does not start with reasonable borders to this two State Solution, therefore there is not a reason for the Palestinian freedom fighters to stop their fight….This then leads to retaliation by Israel and we go on and on and the fight never ends…

If the Palestinians had their State in the West Bank and Gaza…The Israel Settlers could choose to stay or to leave….

P.S. To JA…….Once we have this official Palestinian State the 1,300,000 or so Palestinians living inside Israel may be better off then they are now because if Israel and the Palestinians are not killing each other they may not have such hate for each other, besides that if the Palestinian are not happy living in Israel they can move to the New Palestinian State and help to build it into a good nation…but I can see why they would not want to move to the West Bank and Gaza now because it is under Israelis Brutal Occupation and Oppression….

I am not anti Semitic or anti Palestinian, I am for a fair and just Solution to this never ending conflict that is causing the death of so many innocent people (including children) on both sides…

How many people are dead due to this Intifada that Started in September of 2000:
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

The possible solution I propose does not ask too much of either the Palestinians or the Israelis in my view for the cost of Peace:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php

JA seems to see the hate as the tool.
The rest of us see it as at least a major part of the problem.

Scottie, it's very sad when one is so morally and intellectually handicapped, as you are, that he thinks that living together in peace and equality is the tool of hate.

Angel: "we all know that Israel will never agree to give equal rights to all the Palestinian People, one of their fears is that by way of the vote the Palestinians will vote in a Palestinian to run the Country"

So.... What's wrong with that? (It's called democracy.) The same thing eventually happened in South Africa, where the greatest fear of whites were, indeed, blacks in - and heading - the government. (Maybe, one day, it will even happen in the U.S.: a black, perhaps even black woman, president.) The very same statement above, opposing Palestinians, was made about and by racist white South Africans, opposing blacks. Right-wing Afrikaners, I once read, commonly said they would nuke the country before they would ever give blacks equality and permit them throughout - and heading - the government. Well, the former didn't happen; the latter did.

Bev

"Scottie, it's very sad when one is so morally and intellectually handicapped, as you are"

Good start off with an attack on me as a person it discredits the rest of your post quite nicely.

Angel: "we all know that Israel will never agree to.....a Palestinian to run the Country"
"So.... What's wrong with that? (It's called democracy.)"

A) there are more jews than arabs in israel - israel is already a democracy. that particular democracy is HIGHLY unlikely to elect a palistinian as their leader.
THAT is democracy...
IN FACT --- Imagine if we artificially against the will of both countries combined iraq and the USA inorder to ensure that a US president became in charge of iraq's oil. would you call that democratic?"

B) unfortunatly the jews have not had a plesant time in places where they have been ruled by arabs. There is alot of education of hatred to work through in israel palestine and surrounding countries.
palestine and israel are like a couple who have beaten each other up for 55 years. We perscribe separation at least for now.

C) the palistinians on the whole DONT WANT to be part of a part jewish state. or even a secular state.
will you force some solution upon them because you think it sounds nice? sounds like a non-solution to me.

As to why I said JA sees violence as a tool....
The main reason is because I see the current violence and killing as "unproductive". no one is winning no great cause is being forwarded they are just knocking each other off one or two at a time. I want to stop the violence suicide bombings and israeli incursions as soon as possible. because I dont see violence as a useful tool.
JA seems to be suggesting that we worry about some much more long term goal that neither side wants and forget about stopping the violence for now (if not maybe he can explain it better) that implies that he sees the violence as somthing other than abhorent, presumalbly useful enough to justify the death.

"Right-wing Afrikaners, I once read, commonly said they would nuke the country"

Hah who took that seriously. The israelis would not nuke israel either. the palistinians also have nothing to fear from the nukes.

Number of people killed by HOT WEATHER IN FRANCE in 2 months: 11,000

Number of palestinians killed by israelis in the last FIFTEEN YEARS: Far below that number. Not even close.

Not much of a "war" on palestinians. There SHOULD be, though, a full war on hamas and islamic jihad, etc. WHen Palestinians were trying to take over Jordan back a few decades ago, King Hussein killed like 10,000 palestinians in one month ("black september") and the resutl was palestinians never messed with Jordan like that ever again. Perhaps Israel's mistake was not doing what Jordan did, then maybe tons of hamas and islamic jihad would be off this planet and palestinians might have taken the land offer in 2000 and maybe this would all be over by now.

Palestinian militants try to kill innocent israeli civilians. The Israeli army tries to kill those militants. That's the battle. When Israel isn't being attacked anymore, maybe the palestinians will get their state. If not, immigrate to Jordan (whoops, Jordan doesn't want any more Palestinians.)

bev: "Scottie, it's very sad when one is so morally and intellectually handicapped, as you are, that he thinks that living together in peace and equality is the tool of hate." (As you accuse JA.)

Scot: "Good start off with an attack on me as a person"

bev: Something you have never done to others, eh, Scottie?

Like essentially calling JA hate-filled? Or your snide remarks against Angie? Like all Zionists, when someone intellectually gets the better of you, or revealing your double standards, you still hypocritically resort to either calling names, other attacks, or, of course, accusing them of hating Jews.

Nonetheless, if you believe that living together in peace and equality is a tool of hate, then you are indeed morally and intellectually handicapped, Scottie. I would say, severely so. Separation, especially forced separation, is the tool of hatred, Scottie. It's a tool of hatred where the few exploit the fears and prejudices of the many for the few's own cynical political gain and economic enrichment.

After many decades of living under brutal South African Apartheid, Nelson Mandela and the ANC came out wanting ALL people to live in peace and equality, even though black South Africans outnumbered whites about 6 to 1. They did not want to drive the whites, who had previously been murderously brutal, to be driven into the sea (as white South Africans also claimed). Neither do most Palestinians want that for Israeli Jews (contrary to Zionist propaganda lines) in a democratic Palestine, unlike Israeli Jews who have moreso, relatively, wanted to drive Palestinians into the desert.

After centuries of harsh British rule in India, Gandhi wanted ALL people to live in peace and equality.

After centuries of slavery and oppression, Martin Luther King wanted ALL people to live in peace and equality. He did not believe in "separate but equal" when the lives of the oppressed and the oppressor were so inextricably intertwined, as successive Israeli governments have sought to make it so (especially geographically, with the Israeli settlements and the confiscation of Palestinian resources, like water, and making Palestinians a dependent race, so to speak).

Even Malcolm X, often painted as a militant because, unlike King, he advocated armed self-defense, originally and ultimately wanted ALL people to live together in peace and equality.

The same with the Catholics of Northern Ireland.

Only the Zionist Jews came out of their suffering wanting to, in turn, conquer, separate, and subjugate another people, and not even those guilty of the massive crimes against them.

Scot: "it discredits the rest of your post quite nicely."

bev: Your own intellectual and moral disabilities expressed in your own thoughts and words amply discredit you, Scottie, as I have shown above. You believe in just the opposite of what the civilized, more enlightened world believes constitutes a minimally evolved society, morally. If that is not being intellectually and morally handicapped on your part, Scottie, I wouldn't know what would be. That discredits you! Your inablility to see that doubly discredits you. If you believe that JA wanting what Gandhi and Martin Luther King wanted, people living together in peace and equality, is hate-filled or using "hate as a tool", then you have a very peculiar concept of hate: that discredits you, Scottie.

Scot: "Imagine if we artificially against the will of both countries combined iraq and the USA"

bev: My, Scottie, you are mentally quite tedious. Scottie, since you are intellectually (and academically) handicapped, let me inform you that the U.S. and Iraq were separately created countries. Iraq was not carved out of the U.S.. (I know that in your blind, racist Zionism, you think that Palestine was carved out of Israel and that "the land without a people" was invaded by Palestinians after European Jews got there and completely settled it.) So, the rest of your reasoning is, unsurprisingly, more intellectual jibberish.

Scot: "unfortunatly the jews have not had a plesant time in places where they have been ruled by arabs."

bev: They should try living among the Europeans.

Scot: "palestine and israel are like a couple who have beaten each other up for 55 years."

bev: Enough of your intellectually handicapped, stupid metaphors, Scottie!

Scot: "We perscribe separation at least for now."

bev: Yes, this is what every racist prescribes. This is what Hitler prescribed for the Jews, and just like you similarly said, for the 'good' of both Jews and Christians, since they 'obviously' couldn't get along. This is what the KKK prescribed for the blacks. This is what British-manipulated racism prescribed for India (and what Gandhi realized was happening).

This is also what Louis Farrakhan prescribes for whites and blacks, but when he says so, Jewish leaders in the U.S., in the gross and racist hypocrisy that is Zionism, call him crazy, racist, and hate-filled.

You're in great separatist company, Scottie.

Scot: "the palistinians on the whole DONT WANT to be part of a part jewish state."

bev: Neither would most of the world. Neither would I. I - and ALL of my Jewish friends and kindred spirits - would fight tooth and nail NOT to have the U.S. ever be turned into "a Jewish state". I would no more want to live in "a Jewish state" than I would any other kind of apartheid state. I and all my friends, Jewish and Gentile, would hate the Jews who would want to create such a state. But, I love living in a state WITH Jews, Arabs, Asians, Latinos, blacks, along with every other ethnicity and cuture available (like the multicultural holiday barbeque I went to yesterday afternoon). I wish we could find a separate, uninhabited planet for people like you and your Zionist friends, and any other racists who want to live there, and let you guys fight it out until you die. Then, the rest of us could live in true peace.

(I would also oppose "a white state", or "a black state", or "an Asian state", or "an Arab state", or "a Gentile state", or "a Christian state", or "an Islamic state", or "a Hindu state", or "a Buddhist state", though the last wouldn't be nearly as bad, and any state that behaves the way Israel does. I oppose ALL racist states, under color of either ethnicity or religion. France, for example, is not "the French state"; it's the state of all its resident citizens, whatever ethnicity or religion they may be, with, legally, absolutely equal rights, whatever social discrimination may exist.)

Scot: "there are more jews than arabs in israel - israel is already a democracy. that particular democracy is HIGHLY unlikely to elect a palistinian as their leader."

bev: How do you know? That's prejudicial speculation on your part. How would you know that centrist Israeli Jews and centrist Israeli Palestinians wouldn't join, especially in a Paliamentary system, and work to elect a centrist secular Palestinian leader, as a sign of unity, rejecting Jewish and Islamic fundamentalists parties and right-wing political parties. If white South Africans didn't given Nelson Mandela the majority, or at least plurality of their votes, after Apartheid fell, then they were crazy, because no one else could have politically unified the country as a black president could have. Once again, that shows a handicapped mentality on your part. That shows why people like you never end up being a Gandhi, or a King, or a Mandela. You just end up being, if anything at all, Sharons.

JA: "Right-wing Afrikaners, I once read, commonly said they would nuke the country"

Scot: "Hah who took that seriously."

bev: The right-wing Afrikaners did. But, you take it just as seriously when you and those particular Israeli Jews repeatedly scream that Palestinians want to drive all Jews into the sea. (To me it sounds like an inner guilty conscience on the part of those Israeli Jews.)

Scot: "JA seems to be suggesting that we worry about some much more long term goal that neither side wants"

bev: Like equality for all? Nobody wants this on either side? Really?

But you think that mere physical separation will bring peace. Do you propose to ethnically cleanse the remaining Palestinians from Israel to finally achieve this? Do you, finally propose for Israel to have a war against the settlement Jews it decided to implant and expand, as a political irreversibility all along, into the territories?

Scottie, you don't want peace anymore than "Israel wants peace" or than Sharon wants peace. You have the racist bias of only objections and NO vision. (By the way, Hitler was also once declared "a man of peace".) Or rather, you want the "peace" of total conquest. Until then, you want the violence. You want Jewish supremacy. It's the moral COWARDS like you that bother me, in this sense the most, more than the Begins and the Sharons (or the guy "death" who posted below you) who at least had the guts to be upfront racist Jewish supremacists. You're just a chickenshit little moral coward (a castrated rooster who would have been a Nazi collaborator), or a closet racist, pretending to be magnanimous.

(Scottie, I gave you more time, this time, because this is a holiday weekend in the U.S.. Don't expect this kind of time in the future. You don't intellectually qualify.)

> number of people killed by HOT WEATHER

Yeah right, and two to three million people a year die of malaria, too. That doesn't justify what you're doing to Palestinians, either. Jeez, but you people are scraping the bottom of the barrel for ways to justify your crimes. Give it up. We on to you.

bev: "Like all Zionists, when someone intellectually gets the better of you, or revealing your double standards, you still hypocritically resort to either calling names, other attacks, or, of course, accusing them of hating Jews. "

bevie: How do you know ALL Zionists behave this way? Are you a psychic or somethin'?

bev: "Separation, especially forced separation, is the tool of hatred..."

bevie: Really? A country trying to separate itself and its citizens from another nation that doesn't want any Jews in their midst and constantly sends terrorists across its borders to commit atrocities and steal property (vehicles, agricultural gear, livestock...) isn't acting out of hatred, but rather in prudence and common sense.

bev: "Neither do most Palestinians want [to drive] Israeli Jews [into the sea] (contrary to Zionist propaganda lines)..."

bevie: Where's the evidence to back up your allegation, "bev"? All evidence points to the contrary, even if the Pals don't want to do that to the Israeli Jews literally. Look it up on the web, on the Palestinian websites themselves. The truth is readily evident, save for the people who insist on ignoring it.

bev: "...in a democratic Palestine"

bevie: Again, how do you know most Palestinians even care for democracy? they have tolerated a dictatorial and oppressive regime for 10 years (the PA) and have never risen up against this dictatorship. Evidence on the ground points to the conclusion most Palestinians aren't interested in a democratic tradition any more than populations of the other Arab countries.

bev: " "separate but equal" when the lives of the oppressed and the oppressor were so inextricably intertwined, as successive Israeli governments have sought to make it so"

bevie: Could you please elaborate - which Israeli governments (under which PMs, which years).
I've heard of plans for autonomy and the Oslo process, neither of which qualify.

bev: "The same with the Catholics of Northern Ireland."

bevie: Ahem...you apparently never heard the IRA has been quite active subsequent to signing the Good Friday agreement. So you're wrong.

bev: "Only the Zionist Jews came out of their suffering wanting to, in turn, conquer, separate, and subjugate another people, and not even those guilty of the massive crimes against them."

bevie: You have any reliable evidence to prove this bunch of bunk?

bev: "Palestine was carved out of Israel and that "the land without a people" was invaded by Palestinians after European Jews got there and completely settled it."

bevie: This time you're right on the money for the most part. Since 6/11/67 the Palestinian entity (first geographical and "ethnic", later also political) has been carved out of historical Israel, where many Arabs from bordering Arab countries who would later identify as Palestinians have come since late 19th century. Any person who cares to get beyond the the intellectual gibberish that gets passed as hallowed truth can find proof for this on the web.

Scot: "unfortunately the jews have not had a plesant time in places where they have been ruled by arabs."
bev: "They should try living among the Europeans."

bevie: Jews have done both and the results haven't been pretty, to put it mildly, Your Sagacity bev. If you really give a damn about true democracy and equality in Israel you should at least be consistent about following JA's ideas (and your own?) and not suggest the Israeli Jews emigrate to Europe and leave the whole land to Arabs. Your suggestion smacks of anti-Jewish racism; I don't think you would have suggested the Palestinians return to the Arab countries most of them came from just because they have suffered under the Israelis.

Scot: "We perscribe separation at least for now."
bev: "This is also what Louis Farrakhan prescribes for whites and blacks, but when he says so, Jewish leaders in the U.S., in the gross and racist hypocrisy that is Zionism, call him crazy, racist, and hate-filled."

bevie: Oh?? You have just used Zionism as a codeword for Judaism. Or do you maintain the American Jewish leaders are all Zionist?? If so, what's the evidence you can show?

Scot: "the palistinians on the whole DONT WANT to be part of a part jewish state."
bev: "Neither would most of the world. Neither would I. I - and ALL of my Jewish friends and kindred spirits - would fight tooth and nail NOT to have the U.S. ever be turned into "a Jewish state". " Yamity yamity yamity...

bevie: What the hell has your reply got to do with Scottie's assertion?? A truly democratic state with equality to all in Israel is "part Jewish" as Scottie pointed out. he could have said it's "part Palestinian". Mam, you're just ducking an issue you feel inconvenient dealing with - that the overwhelming majority of Palestinians don't want such a true egalitarian democracy as Scottie noted.

bev: "How would you know that centrist Israeli Jews and centrist Israeli Palestinians wouldn't join, especially in a Parliamentary system, and work to elect a centrist secular Palestinian leader, as a sign of unity, rejecting Jewish and Islamic fundamentalists parties and right-wing political parties."

bevie: I know. I've read lots of Israeli websites pertinent to this and other matters. Shinui (a party in the Israeli parliament) and its followers are Centrist Israeli Jews and mostly ZIONIST. They have an underlying distrust of the Palestinians shared by all non-anti Zionist Israeli Jews, so they wouldn't even contemplate electing a Palestinian leader as per your idea. It's only the anti-Zionists (some of whom prefer the "post-Zionist" label) who would go along with it, but they're a minuscule minority in the Israeli parliament and the local Jewish population.
Furthermore, it's anyone's guess what constitutes a centrist secular Palestinian leader - would he be more moderate and reasonable than Abu-Mazen, whom Centrist Israeli Jews wouldn't dream of electing? Let me also inform you Abu-Mazen is the most moderate it gets among the Palestinian leadership guard, which is nowhere near what all but anti-Zionist Jews would accept - he hasn't repudiated his own history of Holocaust denial.

Scot: "JA seems to be suggesting that we worry about some much more long term goal that neither side wants"
bev: "Like equality for all? Nobody wants this on either side?"

bevie: Some people want it on the Jewish side, the anti (or post) Zionists. Even fewer people want it on the Palestinian side. In other words, neither side wants it. Is this too complicated for you to fathom?

bev: "Like all Zionists, when someone intellectually gets the better of you, or revealing your double standards, you still hypocritically resort to either calling names, other attacks, or, of course, accusing them of hating Jews. "

bevie: How do you know ALL Zionists behave this way? Are you a psychic or somethin'?

How zionists behave: a tiny sample of the defamatory personal abuse directed at me for daring to criticize "the light of nations"

 

bev: "Separation, especially forced separation, is the tool of hatred..."

bevie: Really? A country trying to separate itself and its citizens from another nation that doesn't want any Jews in their midst and constantly sends terrorists across its borders to commit atrocities and steal property (vehicles, agricultural gear, livestock...) isn't acting out of hatred, but rather in prudence and common sense.

---

PALESTINE LIBERATION ORGANIZATION Palestine National Authority The President

 

To: Rabbi Moshe Hirsch
Minister for Jewish Affairs
Palestine Authority, Jerusalem

Dear Rabbi Hirsch: Further to our recent telephone discussion, on behalf of myself, the Palestinian Authority and the people of Palestine I wish to express my deepest thanks to you and all the many Ultra-Orthodox Jews worldwide, and to many Jews who supported us both laymen and rabbis, for their expressions and demonstrations of heartfelt sympathy for the ongoing suffering of the Palestinian people in Palestine at the hands of the Israeli government. No words can express how it makes us feel to know your community has spoken up throughout the world on our behalf.

These expressions are priceless examples of the long-standing and abiding relationship between Jews and Arabs reaching back hundreds of years, and enable the entire world to see the stark contrast between the eternal and beautiful values of Judaism and those embodied in aggressive Zionism. These demonstrations and expressions are of critical importance in enabling the Palestinian people and Arabs worldwide to see this crucial difference so that everyone understands that the actions of the Israeli state do not reflect anything rooted in the traditions, beliefs and laws of Judaism. This is vital in emphasizing that there is no conflict between Jew and Arab.

Again, Rabbi Hirsch, please transmit our best wishes and prayers for true peace and harmony to your entire community worldwide.

Ramallah in: April 23, 2002

Yours truly,

Palestine Chairman of the of the PLO
President of the Palestinian Authority

http://www.nkusa.org/Historical_Documents/ArafatLetter.htm

---

> bev: "Like all Zionists, when someone intellectually gets the better of you, or reveals your double standards, you still hypocritically resort to either calling names, other attacks, or, of course, accusing them of hating Jews."

CFB: "bevie: How do you know ALL Zionists behave this way? Are you a psychic or somethin'?"

You can first start with reading SF-IMC threads, then ALL of IMC's threads. Then you can debate any Zionists or read any of their arguments, especially Zionist leaders, against those who oppose Zionism. (It's deductive reasoning, after one has observed a very large sampling.) Further, the abuse has not been "personal" (that's your attempt to isolate and marginalize me as an anti-Zionist); it has been against ALL anti-Zionists regularly posting in IMC. And it you would read for yourself here in SF-IMC, you would see that ZIONIST ATTACKS, ESPECIALLY AGAINST WOMEN HERE, HAVE BEEN RATHER NASTY OR OBSCENE. (Scottie himself, above, has often been in the former category of attacks.)

If you are Zionist, eventually you will resort to the same too. This is because Zionism is intellectually and morally indefensible by any logically consistent means. Zionism is certainly not defensible using consistent morality, especially that to which Jews want/ed applied to themselves in other countries (than Israel). It certainly is not consistent with the suffering that Jews have experienced in violently anti-Semitic countries, especially in Nazi Germany and the Holocaust. That's why all the Zionists in indymedia rather quickly or soon resort to calling names, other attacks, or, of course, accusing others of hating Jews. It's the only rhetorical recourse they evidently feel that they have left.

CFB: "...for *daring* to criticize "the light of nations". "

In other words, as you are doing here. Essentially (rhetorically indirectly) accusing me of hating Jews. Q.E.D.

CFB: "A country trying to separate itself and its citizens from another nation that doesn't want any Jews in their midst..."

And - speaking of DEFAMATORY - what country would this be? Where is this quote taken from?

Finally, other than the fact that many Jews themselves oppose Zionism (including religious ones), what are you trying to prove with the above letter? Do you oppose Zionism too? What is CFB (yourself or an organization)?

In my experience, it's the Anti-Zionists who resort to insults, ridicule and bashing, because (in my opinion) it's their position that's indefensible.

But I suppose you feel that somehow you're "morally superior" to me, and therefore your judgement is, somehow "superior."

Therefore, you have a monopoly on "truth" and Zionists like me are all evil, and nothing we say could possibly be true.

This allows you to accuse us of hurling insults, of forgetting all the insults you hurl at us, and save you the effort of thinking.

Plus, you have the editors on your side, who can selectively decide that Zionists posts are "racist" and censor them at their whim. Which happens frequently.

Don't kid yourself. You've never had an honest debate, because there is no honest debate on IMC. Just flame wars and hate.

bev: Something you have never done to others, eh, Scottie?

"Like essentially calling JA hate-filled? "

Your interpretation.

"Or your snide remarks against Angie? "

Probably your interpretation also.

"Like all Zionists, when someone intellectually gets the better of you, or revealing your double standards, you still hypocritically resort to either calling names..."

Did I do that? Oh no that was you.

"Nonetheless, if you believe that living together in peace and equality is a tool of hate, "

- you obviously didnt read the post properly go back and read it and we can talk again when you are educated.

"Separation, especially forced separation, is the tool of hatred, Scottie. "

You could have a good conversation with nessie on the virtues of black only anarchist meetings. but in this case it is more similar too the introduction of random men off the street into a battered women meetings.

And most importantly. THEY DONT WANT your solution (neither side) So forcing your solution upon both sides is a sort of arrogance.

"Only the Zionist Jews came out of their suffering wanting to, in turn, conquer, separate, and subjugate another people, and not even those guilty of the massive crimes against them."

A) you have make the huge leap to say that the Jews WANT (for the sake of it) to conquor another people etc etc

B) Ghandi was not asking for indians to have a vote in the british government he was asking for independance so that comparison is relevant only to our position not yours. (pay more attention to what you are saying).
AND look at what Hamas Islamic Jihad or even the PLO are asking for.. NO ONE is asking for your solution. From memory Hamas has a particularly interesting goal in their charter go read it.

B) Do you know Zimbabwae? is not the Mugabe government "oppressing " whites? Oh and how about the rest of africa? I mean Congo Rwanda etc etc (too many to list) how many of these governments born from revolution have continued to fall in and out of revolt as a result of one group or another continuing to act in the way it has when it was fighting for its freedom.

South africa (mandella) and Martin luther were civil rights issues within a country. basically there were uneven rights allocated to certain groups and they were then evened out. I fully support the removal of any laws in israel palestine or jordan etc that are biased against any race but that is a seperate issue to the one we are discussing now.
Besides that the vast majority of their sucess was political not based on violence.

"bev: Your own intellectual and moral disabilities expressed in your own thoughts and words amply discredit you, Scottie, as I have shown above."

You have done it again thanks but there really was no need your credibility already hit rock bottom.

" You believe in just the opposite of what the civilized, more enlightened world believes constitutes a minimally evolved society, morally."

- Exactly what do you think my opinion is?

. If you believe that JA wanting what Gandhi and Martin Luther King wanted, people living together in peace and equality, is hate-filled or using "hate as a tool", then you have a very peculiar concept of hate: that discredits you, Scottie.

"bev: let me inform you that the U.S. and Iraq were separately created countries."

- And why does that matter? Jordan (the country to which you are refering in the middle east) was carved out of the ottoman empire. Do you want to merge all of the historic ottoman empire again? why are you arbitrarily accepting britains definition of "jordan"??
Your mindless acpeptance of some line some british official drew on a piece of paper is your major problem it seems.)
So, the rest of your reasoning is, unsurprisingly, more intellectual jibberish.

"You're in great separatist company, Scottie."

I have the jews and the palistinians as my company. you however are sitting by yourself.

"bev: How do you know? That's prejudicial speculation on your part. How would you know that centrist Israeli Jews and centrist Israeli Palestinians wouldn't join, "

Do a survey .. you will find you are wrong.

"bev: The right-wing Afrikaners did."

Sucker

bev: They should try living among the Europeans.

- are you going to force them all to go to europe? where in europe would you like to put them? who else are you going to forcably send to some other place where they are not welcome?

"bev: Yes, this is what every racist prescribes."

Do you mean seperation from england like ghandi perscribed.. are you calling ghandi a racist?
Anyway I (and ghandi) DO NOT mean racial separation. I mean national separation. Seperation of "Israel" and "Palestine".

"Scot: "the palistinians on the whole DONT WANT to be part of a part jewish state."

bev: Neither would most of the world. Neither would I."

So why are you effectively asking for that? Under democracy a state is allowed to choose its own national religion (like all the arab states do and have a right to do) And israel by its population is a jewish state. And the USA is a christian/secular state (which is reflected in its laws). If it was a muslim state the laws would be different.
Are you saying you want to deny the majority of the world its right to choose its own government system? Ohh you have a big war on your hands then.

'bev: But, you take it just as seriously when you and those particular Israeli Jews repeatedly scream that Palestinians want to drive all Jews into the sea. (To me it sounds like an inner guilty conscience on the part of those Israeli Jews.)"

Some palistinians say that. Not all of them of course

"bev: Like equality for all? Nobody wants this on either side? Really?"

You are taking a part of his argument and assuming that I must be refering to that part. I am instead refering to the entirity. so your logic is thus flawed.

"Do you propose to ethnically cleanse the remaining Palestinians from Israel to finally achieve this? "

No. By the way the arab population in israel is increacing as far as i know. If there is an arab part of israel near palestine then palestine can have it.. that is no problem.

"Do you, finally propose for Israel to have a war against the settlement Jews it decided to implant and expand, as a political irreversibility all along, into the territories?""

give some to palestine if they are too isolated. redraw the boarders to make them not HAVE to move and give them incentives if they make this process easier.
I dont WANT to do that but it is somthing that is needed to make the palistinian negotiators happy.

"Scottie, you don't want peace anymore than "Israel wants peace" or than Sharon wants peace. "

- how do you know that?

"Or rather, you want the "peace" of total conquest. Until then, you want the violence."

Have you forgotten which side of this argument you are on?

-"a castrated rooster who would have been a Nazi collaborator"

Oh my you are really using factual arguments here.

(Scottie himself, above, has often been in the former category of attacks.)

take this thread. you have attacked me personaly quite a few times.. at a guess maybe 20? JA has made similar statements a few times too.. clearly there are more "anti zionist" personal attacks here. in the very thread where you are arguing the opposite.

Odd: "In my experience, it's the Anti-Zionists who resort to insults, ridicule and bashing, because (in my opinion) it's their position that's indefensible."

Well, I'd put Gandhi, Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela over you ANY day. I hardly think that their positions on justice and humanity are "indefensible".

Odd: "But I suppose you feel that somehow you're "morally superior" to me, and therefore your judgement is, somehow "superior." "

YES. And so are the above-named human rights icons.

Odd: "Therefore, you have a monopoly on "truth" and Zionists like me are all evil"

No, I have no monopoly on this truth. The above-named people and many other human rights figures, as well as other morally decent people, share the same belief and, in fact, universal truth that, fundamentally, all people are morally created equal, in that they are all morally entitled to equal human rights and equality before the law.

Yes, Zionists and ALL racists are evil. Just as I consider people who hate Jews, I consider Jews who hate or oppress others to be evil.

Odd: "This allows you to accuse us of hurling insults..."

In this matter, if insult be perceived, then insult is due. As a Zionist, If you perceive "racist" to be an insult, then insult is due.

Odd: "Plus, you have the editors on your side, who can selectively decide that Zionists posts are "racist" and censor them at their whim. Which happens frequently."

If that were true, then it is nice for Zionists, for a change, to feel censorship. Now you know how it feels for a change. But, not to worry: you still have all the, especially, corporate maintream media and your Israel lobby to threated, intimidate, and censor others. At least SF-IMC is not out threatening you physically or your livelihood, as the Israel lobby (the ADL, the JDL, the JCRC, etc., and inside Palestine, the state of Israel) does so pervasively. So, if it were *Zionists* that are censored - for a change - I say good! It feels (justifiably or not) *unfair*, doesn't it? Good! You'll get no tears from me.

The fact is that you Zionists are accorded far more rights to express yourselves in SF-IMC than you would ever accord others anywhere else in the media - especially your own. In fact, you Zionists perform a *service* by doing so, so that the intellectual and moral corruptness of your arguments - as well as your nasty, often obscene, verbal behavior - can be exposed. If your defamatory or obscene personal attacks, your homophobic slurs, your misplaced editorial condemnations, and your SF-IMC impersonations of others are not tolerated, then good! Go somewhere else.

Odd: "and save you the effort of thinking"

I, and others, including morally conscious Jews, often think about the very sad irony of Zionist Jews oppressing others and, in turn, finding Naziesque ways to achieve and justify that oppression. I and others, including morally conscious Jews, think about how Zionist Jews oppress Palestinians according to an ideology that constituted the basic racial doctrine, and employed many of the same military and legalistic methods, of the Nazis.

Odd: "Don't kid yourself. You've never had an honest debate, because there is no honest debate on IMC."

Then by your claim that would mirror the situation Zionists and the Israel lobby perpetrate in the mainstream American media. How does it feel, for a change? If you feel that way, again, no tears here. Go somewhere else if you don't like it.

> bev: "Like all Zionists, when someone intellectually gets the better of you, or reveals your double standards, you still hypocritically resort to either calling names, other attacks, or, of course, accusing them of hating Jews."

"Kill Them": "I mean, don't get me wrong. I hate them, because the vast majority of them are, knowingly or unknowingly, anti-semites."

Zionists are so predictable. Q.E.D.

(Was/is Gandhi and Mandela anti-Semites? Are N. Finkelstein, Ilan Pappe, D Bernstein, B. Lubin, P. Bennis, N. Chomsky, J. Beinin, J. Blankfort, and numerous other prominent Jews also anti-Semites? Are morally conscious Jews in the Paletinian Int'l Solidarity Movement (ISM) and other Palestinian solidarity groups anti-Semites?

"Kill Them": "[more recycled blah, blah, blah, Zionist lines, myths, slogans, and propaganda]"

This recycled garbage has been thoroughly dealt with in other CURRENT threads, so I will not indulge you here.

Rainbow Grocery Casts a Vote for Israeli Apartheid
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/08/1638022_comment.php#1639292

AUDIO: Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey Blankfort on anti-Semitism. Israel threatens Iran
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/08/1635249_comment.php#1638625

Jeffrey Blankfort: The Israel Lobby and the Left: Uneasy Questions
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/08/1635628_comment.php#1639031

ANNE GWYNNE friend and host killed by Israel
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/08/1633658_comment.php#1638162

Prominent Israeli History Professor, Ilan Pappe Praises Jenin Book
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/07/1625539_comment.php#1639467

Israel is/was no more singled out that one of its closest allies: then, Apartheid South Africa. Further, as has also been thoroughly dealt with, any state that would politically DEFINE itself on the basis of one ethnic group is by definition racist.

"Good job": "Job well done today. When Palestinians stop trying to murder Israelis..."

Apartheid Afrikaners: "When blacks stop trying to murder whites..."

Looks like you have history a little backwards, as Zionists would.

Benny Morris, Israeli, Professor of Middle Eastern History, Ben Gurion University: "ABOVE ALL, let me REITERATE, the [Palestinian] refugee problem was caused by JEWISH forces in Arab villages and towns, and by inhabitants' fears of such ATTACKS, compounded by EXPULSIONS, ATROCITIES, and rumors of atrocities - and by the crucial Israeli Cabinet decision in June 1948 to bar a refugee return." (The War for Palestine, 2001, Cambridge University Press, UK, p 38.)

But, Zionists are so indelibly racist that not even Moses himself could convince them that they are wrong. Like other racist European settler-colonialists, they just want the land - some non-Europeans' land - and the indigenous people removed, no matter what. When Zionists can use falsified history, they will; when they can use the Bible, they will; when they can use claims of being single out, they will; when they can claim monopoly victimhood status, then will; when they can use inconsistent morality and patent double standards, they will; and when they CAN'T, it doesn't matter! Because all of their claims are pretexts, not not truths.

CFB = Count Folke Bernadotte

Bev - Did you read and comprehend my post?

In response to Bevie's first claim, I hyperlinked to two pages of personal abuse directed at me FOR DARING TO CRITICIZE ISRAEL.

In response to Bevie's second unsubstatniated allegation, I posted a LETTER FROM YASSIR ARAFAT TO RABBI MOSHE HIRSH regarding the WARM RELATIONS BETWEEN JEWS AND ARABS.

At that point, having read your previous post, I figured you could do a fine job of refuting the rest of Bevie's desultory confabulations.

How you managed to misinterpret both the intent and the content of my post, I'm not sure.

Please re-read it.

Cheers,
CFB - Australia

aka:
Already Published
John Flashcroft (see Gideon Levy flash above)
Turing
Confabulous
& Hasbara Goy

That applies to the Palestinian Population just as much.
If they were not attacked by a military (that has not distinguished between civilians and those who fight to achieve a legitimate independence) then there won't be animosity between the cultures where mutual respect could be achieved.>

Re "points 1 & 2..." :

CFB hasn't proven me wrong - not on the 1st point nor the 2nd.

Even Arafat's letter to that prominent Neturei Karta leader doesn't prove Arafat or the Palestinians at large would tolerate the presence of Anti-Zionist Jews such as NK.
And even if they would, that hardly proves anything; how many anti-Zionist Jews live in the West Bank? Hmm? Probably no more than 10. Go check it up, CFB.

Besides, NK don't represent Jews except themselves. As Gehrig aptly pointed out once, they have anointed themselves spokesmen of Judaism and world Jewry but have never been elected as such. They are about 5000 strong, a minuscule minority among religious Jews worldwide and an even tinier minority among all Jews, in other words: they constitute a marginal group.

So what if Arabs and Jews had warm relations in several places, like Arab Spain, hundreds of years ago? Does that prove the Palestinians will permit NK Jews, much less non-Zionist and Zionist Jews to settle in a future Palestine?

My allegation is substantiated indeed.

So much for CFB's confabulations. He needs to do his homework more thoroughly.

bevie: How do you know ALL Zionists behave this way? Are you a psychic or somethin'?

bev:
"You can first start with reading SF-IMC threads, then ALL of IMC's threads. Then you can debate any Zionists or read any of their arguments, especially Zionist leaders, against those who oppose Zionism. (It's deductive reasoning, after one has observed a very large sampling.) Further, the abuse has not been "personal" (that's your attempt to isolate and marginalize me as an anti-Zionist); it has been against ALL anti-Zionists regularly posting in IMC. And if you would read for yourself here in SF-IMC, you would see that ZIONIST ATTACKS, ESPECIALLY AGAINST WOMEN HERE, HAVE BEEN RATHER NASTY OR OBSCENE. "

Deductive reasoning doesn't do.
I doubt you've read all IMC threads pertaining to "Zionist" matters, and even if so, you still haven't proven your ridiculous generalization from before.

To end the resistance to the Occupation you have to end the Occupation that allows for the resistance….

And who has died in this Conflict?? Many are innocent children who did not deserve to die....To find out:
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

Sorry, I did not post the message above...my imposter did...

""Back to where we Started from...
by ANGEL Tuesday September 02, 2003 at 02:12 AM"" (not the real ANGEL, posted by a Coward who is afraid to use his/her own handle or How sad that he/she must be mentally deficient and cannot compose his/her own rebuttal to a posting.)

To end the Resistance to the Occupation it's not even enough to end the Occupation that ostensibly allows for the Resistance…. the Jews most get out of Israel too.

And who has died in this Conflict???? Many are innocent children who did not deserve to die....To find out read the following bogus and biased source:
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
The Palestinians murder Jews, the Jews almost never murder Palestinians.

bevie's response:
Even Arafat's letter to that prominent Neturei Karta leader doesn't prove Arafat or the Palestinians at large would tolerate the presence of Anti-Zionist Jews such as NK. And even if they would, that hardly proves anything [...] My [doesn't want any Jews] allegation is substantiated indeed.

Not only did you not furnish any evidence to substantiate your unlikely allegation--as I most certainly did regarding online defamatory abuse by cyberstalkers of zion -- but you committed exactly the same error that you attacked bev for when s/he foolishly generalized, "Like all Zionists..".

(bevie): How do you know all Zionists behave this way? Are you a psychic or somethin'?

 

What are "double-standards", bevie?

"bevie": "A country trying to separate itself and its citizens from another nation that doesn't want any Jews in their midst..."

"Bevie", you're a walking catalogue of Zionist propaganda lines, aren't you? What Zionist indoctrination school do you learn that stuff in? Do you have these propaganda lines numbered from 1 to whatever in your Zionist propaganda script book? You're like a propaganda drone. And you drone on and on and on... You'd be completely hilarious, if people like you didn't have tanks and fighter planes, etc. It shows what happens when you give previously abused, become self-preoccupied, become some mental children dangerous toys like missiles and bombs to play with.

Moving on to another joke...

>bev: "let me inform you that the U.S. and Iraq were separately created countries."

Scot: "- And why does that matter?"

...Need I say more?

Scottie, I think that your responses have intellectually degraded to the point where other readers (not the Zionist drones here) can make an obvious intellectual comparison to the quality of my responses and other anti-racist anti-Zionists (a redundancy, for emphasis). The same is pretty much true for the rest of you (like "bevie", "Odd", "death", "Bottom - of the barrel", etc.) Zionists that have already debated with me in this thread.


However, I will make two points: (1) a theocracy/semi-theocracy and a democracy is a CONTRADICTION in terms (if you "democratically" vote in a semi-/theocracy, Scottie, you no longer have, to whatever extent, a true democracy, which is based on absolute legal equality before the law regardless of religion or ethnicity); (2) for all you Zionists claim to hate Arab or Islamic or U.S.-supported dictatorial Arab states, you guys sure LOVE comparing yourselves only to them! Is *that* your political and societal standard for Israel? Why don't you ever compare Israel to *Canada* or some other socially advanced Western (especially multi-ethnic, multicultural, multireligious) country? Or since they don't have racist, legalized, racialized, state ideologies, would that be too hard and too stark?

As I said before at the end of my previous comment to you: "(Scottie, I gave you more time, this time, because this is a holiday weekend in the U.S.. Don't expect this kind of time in the future. You don't intellectually qualify.)" And, Scottie, I won't take up my time to go back and look up all the times you were insulting and nasty to Angie: I will let the reader go back and look those up, should they feel sufficiently interested. Although at least you weren't misogynistically obscene to her, like most of your other Zionist cohorts back then, but you came close sometimes. Eventually, the editors deleted many of those obscene misogynistic ZIONIST attacks.

"bevie": "How do you know ALL Zionists behave this way? Are you a psychic or somethin'? ...Deductive reasoning doesn't do."

[Re my previous general remarks about Zionists' rhetorical behavior, based on their prolific, especially, IMC pattern of juvenile sandbox name-calling and/or nasty, scatological, obscene, even misogynist, sometimes severely homophobic, retorts and promiscuously flung accusations of anti-Semitism (while conveniently ignoring prominent, and other, anti-Zionist Jews or their groups).]

I'll let any interested, but perhaps uninformed, unexperienced, readers research, should they wish, and decide for themselves, eh?

"Bevie", since, like Scottie, you too are intellectually (and academically) handicapped, let me inform you of what any world history book on the Mideast/Arab world would reveal: European Jews have lived in the midst of Arabs since they fled the European Christian Inquisition and Jews have lived in the midst of Arabs since ancient times - and in far more relative peace than Jews ever lived among the Christians in Europe.

That's why the persecuted Jews of the Inquisition fled to the Arab world!: because they generally felt SAFE there! The two largest populations of Jews in the Arab world were in Morocco and Iraq! The Arabs - unlike, often, the Europeans - let the Jews practice their religion and never tried to exterminate the Jews. The Jews in the Arab world felt so comfortable that they essentially adopted Arab culture - and often, later, clashed with the culture of European (Ashkenazi) Jews! I know Arab Jews who actually say that they socially and interpersonally get along better with Arabs than with European Jews (who they often regard as racist against even Arab Jews) .

"bevie": "So what if Arabs and Jews had warm relations in several places...[for HUNDREDS of years, UNTIL ZIONISM - which targeted Arab Jews too!]"

"So what...?" Then that disproves your point.

Palestinians don't hate Jews (per se); they hate Jewish racism! And like any other racism, so do I


CFB: MY ABJECT APOLOGIES(!) for misinterpreting your post to me! I hope you are doing well down - or rather *UP* - in Aussieland! Your relatively fancy formatting somewhat threw me off. I see *now*: you were *juxtaposing* "bevie's" remarks with the Arafat letter and his warm relationship with Rabbi Moshe Hirsch. *That's* what confused me about what the letter was trying to prove. I wasn't sure from what perspective you were addressing your comments.

Also, your hyperlinks weren't/aren't working for me, even when I reloaded the page: it says "page not found". So, I suppose that didn't help, that I undoubtedly missed some critical information that would have immediately clarified your point. I *did*, just now, get your "abuse" and "defamatory abuse" hyperlinks to work though (but not the others) after reloading from the threads listing page. Very interesting.

Re Gideon Levy flash above: I *love* that! I thought it was great! That's exactly what Jewish Holocaust survivor, author, vehement anti-Zionist (in fact, morally, and thus anti-racistly, based on Jewish suffering in Europe), and DePaul University, Chicago, Professor Norman Finkelstein says.

CFB = Count Folke Bernadotte: Ahhh...! *Now* I recognize and remember your screen name! Again, my abject apologies!

Cheers,

bev

Scot: "- And why does that matter?
...Need I say more?"

Who created the USA and Iraq? Ill give you a hint it starts with B and ends with ritain. Now why would you accept what they created in those two cases and reject what they did in regards to israel with the assistance of the UN and the general agreement of the world (as oposed to unilaterally in the other two cases?

No instead you think britains prior allocation (or which particular allocation do you mean?) of land overrukles the UN or the current will of the people. Strange you are.

"However, I will make two points: (1) a theocracy/semi-theocracy and a democracy is a CONTRADICTION in terms"

Bev you really need to start using the NORMAL definition for words when you use them. Most people understand Democracy to mean "government by the people"
It does not mean "governments that act exactly like we want them to".

If you are to say democracy equals absolute legal equality then there are very few if any democracies in the world (the USA is not for example). If that is the case then saying "israel is not a democracy by the bev definition" is meaningless since no one is a democracy by that definition and so there is no reason to specifically direct critisism towards them.

"Why don't you ever compare Israel to *Canada* or some other socially advanced Western (especially multi-ethnic, multicultural, multireligious) country?"

I have. did you not read my posts on canadas immigration policies and their policing? If you look at anyhting with a microscope you will find dirt. your problem is you only ever look at israel.

"Or since they don't have racist, legalized, racialized, state ideologies, would that be too hard and too stark?"

- No It was fairly easy.

"Although at least you weren't misogynistically obscene to her, like most of your other Zionist cohorts back then, but you came close sometimes. "

Try harder next time mate. Feel free to read over the 20 odd times you have used a offensive remark that is in no way relevant to oyur point towards me and then count how many times i have done the same to you. what? a ratio of 20/0? gee seems your complaint about "zionists" is misplaced.

Not only that but you keep repeating the same ones. if you are going to undermine your own argument like this at least get a bit more creative.

"[Re my previous general remarks about Zionists' rhetorical behavior, based on their prolific, especially, IMC pattern of juvenile sandbox name-calling"

remember this ? "since you are intellectually (and academically) handicapped,"

"I'll let any interested, but perhaps uninformed, unexperienced, readers research, should they wish, and decide for themselves, eh?"

- yes they can look in this thread. In fact i suggest you look in this thread yourself and do some statistics.

"Palestinians don't hate Jews (per se); they hate Jewish racism! And like any other racism, so do I"

Have you done a study to determine that? care to show us the statistics?
Actually there are some nice statistics out there (done by palistinian and jewish groups) regarding palistinian and jewish opinion. Go look them up they cover all sorts of interesting topics.

"It's the "bev" type of person that should just be ignored. There's almost no point in responding. "

Translation: "She's just TOO SMART!! Damnit, we can't come back with anything intellectually or morally effective! She's intellectually unshakable and she's, along with CFB and JA, just making us look like stupid moral morons! If we can't call her names (that doesn't affect her) and we can't promiscuously call her anti-Semitic (because she won't fall for that rhetorical intimidation either) and we can't sling obscene retorts at her (because that would just show others that she's right), maybe we can just get everyone (well, all us Zionists anyway) to just try to IGNORE her! You see, in my case, "ignore", my ad hoc screen name, comes from purposely "ignorant"! That's what *I* am!" Just don't try to take her on! Especially you, Scottie! You should know when you're out of your depth! Bev intellectually played with you a little, and now she's just going to let you intellectually sink like a stone; you know, the dead weight that's in your head!

"Yet another crazed anti-"zionist" nutcase who wants israel broken up because it's jewish"

Translation: "YEAH...! JUST BECAUSE WE'RE JEWWWSSS!"

Special note: Israel is ZIONIST, not per se Jewish, as nessie would note. By no stretch is Israel all Jewish (the Palestinian population percentage there, including Muslims and Christians, even inside Israel itself, is MUCH higher than the black population percentage in the U.S.); most Jews haven't and don't EVER intend to live there; and many Jews are either not self-identified Zionists, don't particularly care about or don't pay close attention to Israel, or are even anti-Zionist.

At least be consistant when you are arguing.

" Special note: "Israel is ZIONIST, not per se Jewish, as nessie would note.""

However when talking to me you have said it is the "jewish" nature (semi theocracy) which is what you are opposing. Zionism is the desire to establish a state on historical zion (which does not have to be stritcly speaking jewish as you note here).

To end the resistance to the Occupation you have to end the Occupation that allows for the resistance….

Freedom to the Palestinian People equals Peace in the Middle East...

And who has died in this Conflict?? Many are innocent children who did not deserve to die....To find out:
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

The above post was posted by my imposter. Apologies to all...

""Freedom to the Palestinian People
by ANGEL Tuesday September 02, 2003 at 10:06 PM"" (not the real ANGEL, posted by a Coward who is afraid to use his/her own handle or How sad that he/she must be mentally deficient and cannot compose his/her own rebuttal to a posting.)


To end the Resistance to the Occupation it's not even enough to end the Occupation that ostensibly allows for the Resistance…. the Jews must get out of Israel too.

Freedom to the Palestinian People equals Peace in the Middle East...on the condition Israel is dismantled and the Jews sent back to Europe and whereever else they came from.

And who has died in this Conflict??? Many are innocent children who did not deserve to die....To find out read the following bogus and biased source:
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
The Palestinians murder Jews, the Jews almost never murder Palestinians.

bevie: A country trying to separate itself and its citizens from another nation that doesn't want any Jews in their midst...

bev: " "Bevie", you're a walking catalogue of Zionist propaganda lines, aren't you? What Zionist indoctrination school do you learn that stuff in? Do you have these propaganda lines numbered from 1 to whatever in your Zionist propaganda script book? You're like a propaganda drone. And you drone on and on and on... You'd be completely hilarious, if people like you didn't have tanks and fighter planes, etc. It shows what happens when you give previously abused, become self-preoccupied, become some mental children dangerous toys like missiles and bombs to play with.
Moving on to another joke..."

- I agree with "debate coach" that ad hominems don't constitute rebuttals.
Your out of ways to argue and respond to the point, so you lob a few ad homs at me. So much for your "holy" self proclaimed abstinence from personal attacks! Not to mention you couldn't contradict my claim.

Well, the Palestinians MIGHT allow the few dozens or hundreds of NK Jews dwell amongst them but that hardly counts, as NK are rabidly pro-Palestinian - not only anti-Zionist - and would take kind of treatment the Pallys would subject them to. In sum, the NK oddballs aren't representative of Jews at large.
I conclude you've been thoroughly anti-Semitically brainwashed - and you didn't even bother to hide your looned anti-Semitism manifested in your last sentence above. But I'm sure you'll vehemently deny it.

bev: " "Bevie", since, like Scottie, you too are intellectually (and academically) handicapped, let me inform you of what any world history book on the Mideast/Arab world would reveal: European Jews have lived in the midst of Arabs since they fled the European Christian Inquisition and Jews have lived in the midst of Arabs since ancient times - and in far more relative peace than Jews ever lived among the Christians in Europe."

- By partially giving the floor to whatever history book/s you're alluding to, you are desperately attempting to distract fair minded readers from your profound anti-Semitism and willful moral and intellectual handicaps.
Yes, non-European Jews have lived among Arabs in the Arabian peninsula since about the dawn of Common Era - when the latter were pagan, well before the Arabs converted to Islam.

bev: "That's why the persecuted Jews of the Inquisition fled to the Arab world!: because they generally felt SAFE there! The Arabs - unlike, often, the Europeans - let the Jews practice their religion and never tried to exterminate the Jews. The Jews in the Arab world felt so comfortable that they essentially adopted Arab culture - and often, later, clashed with the culture of European (Ashkenazi) Jews! I know Arab Jews who actually say that they socially and interpersonally get along better with Arabs than with European Jews (who they often regard as racist against even Arab Jews)."

- Indeed, the Arab world was physically and religiously safer for Jews than Christendom.
But Jews were almost always treated as second-class citizens and never as equals (does "dhimmi" ring a bell, bev?); they were often exploited and taxed for nothing other than being Jewish (I'm not referring here to Christians in the Arab world, so don't accuse me of philo-Semitic bias.).
Furthermore, the Jews were occasionally subjected to random murder on varying scales; the Jewish population of today's Jordan and Saudi Arabia has been murdered, dispossessed and driven out! Already at the onset of Islam, before Muhammad brought all of the Arabian peninsula under Islam's dominion, he and his cohorts massacred many Jews of Median and Mecca for refusing to accept Islam; the other Jews there were driven out and dispossessed.
To sum up, Jews' residence among Arabs has been an experience with mixed results and a pretty dubious one.
And your history lesson doesn't prove Palestinians would treat Jews fairly or more benignly than they were treated throughout the Jewish golden age in Arab Spain to name one example.
You have also neglected to take into consideration that Arabs adopted and massively assimilated all concepts of European anti-Semitism in the 20th century, and the Palestinians particularly excel at this.

bevie: So what if Arabs and Jews had warm relations in several places?

bev: " "So what...?" Then that disproves your point. Palestinians don't hate Jews (per se); they hate Jewish racism! And like any other racism, so do I."

- For one, your first contention took my question out of context. That demonstrates more than anything else you've posted yesterday you academic and intellectual dishonesty.
Second, your next contention is based on your own delusional and willfully ignorant wishful thinking. I've seen/heard loads of evidence both from the media and on the web pointing to the opposite of what you claim ("Palestinians don't hate Jews (per se) ).

In closing, poor bev: Norman Finkelstein is NOT a Holocaust survivor; his PARENTS are. Long live the tiny difference, Your Sagacity.

"Furthermore, the Jews were occasionally subjected to random murder on varying scales; the Jewish population of today's Jordan and Saudi Arabia has been murdered, dispossessed and driven out!"

Yeah, sometimes by Zionists trying to drive Jews out of Arab countries into their (Zionists') 'precious' Israel. Zionists often made sure to make it dangerous for Jews in other countries, even verbally playing on anti-Semitism, order to coerce them to Israel. There's a reason that the Jewish Stern was called "a gang"!

"Already at the onset of Islam, before Muhammad brought all of the Arabian peninsula under Islam's dominion, he and his cohorts massacred many Jews of Median and Mecca for refusing to accept Islam; the other Jews there were driven out and dispossessed."

I would never trust your claims, or your context, given your typical Zionist track record for intellectual dishonesty. I don't know enough about Islamic history without looking it up. But, as someone raised Christian, I do know that the Jews of the Old Testament did more than a little gratuitous killing and massacring (sometimes of entire towns) themselves (and sometimes even of each other). So, what does that make them?

Your musings don't warrant any intelligent response. They are crap laden with lies.
(And the OT history is very relevant to Muslims, isn't it?)

Slither back under the rock whence you came.

A Failed Israeli Society Collapses While Its Leaders Remain Silent

By AVRAHAM BURG

Forward - [New York's oldest Jewish publication]


The Zionist revolution has always rested on two pillars: a just path and an ethical leadership. Neither of these is operative any longer. The Israeli nation today rests on a scaffolding of corruption, and on foundations of oppression and injustice. As such, the end of the Zionist enterprise is already on our doorstep. There is a real chance that ours will be the last Zionist generation. There may yet be a Jewish state here, but it will be a different sort, strange and ugly.

There is time to change course, but not much. What is needed is a new vision of a just society and the political will to implement it. Nor is this merely an internal Israeli affair. Diaspora Jews for whom Israel is a central pillar of their identity must pay heed and speak out. If the pillar collapses, the upper floors will come crashing down.

The opposition does not exist, and the coalition, with Arik Sharon at its head, claims the right to remain silent. In a nation of chatterboxes, everyone has suddenly fallen dumb, because there's nothing left to say. We live in a thunderously failed reality. Yes, we have revived the Hebrew language, created a marvelous theater and a strong national currency. Our Jewish minds are as sharp as ever. We are traded on the Nasdaq. But is this why we created a state? The Jewish people did not survive for two millennia in order to pioneer new weaponry, computer security programs or anti-missile missiles. We were supposed to be a light unto the nations. In this we have failed.

It turns out that the 2,000-year struggle for Jewish survival comes down to a state of settlements, run by an amoral clique of corrupt lawbreakers who are deaf both to their citizens and to their enemies. A state lacking justice cannot survive. More and more Israelis are coming to understand this as they ask their children where they expect to live in 25 years. Children who are honest admit, to their parents' shock, that they do not know. The countdown to the end of Israeli society has begun.

It is very comfortable to be a Zionist in West Bank settlements such as Beit El and Ofra. The biblical landscape is charming. From the window you can gaze through the geraniums and bougainvilleas and not see the occupation. Traveling on the fast highway ›hat takes you from Ramot on Jerusalem's northern edge to Gilo on the southern edge, a 12-minute trip that skirts barely a half-mile west of the Palestinian roadblocks, it's hard to comprehend the humiliating experience of the despised Arab who must creep for hours along the pocked, blockaded roads assigned to him. One road for the occupier, one road for the occupied.

This cannot work. Even if the Arabs lower their heads and swallow their shame and anger forever, it won't work. A structure built on human callousness will inevitably collapse in on itself. Note this moment well: Zionism's superstructure is already collapsing like a cheap Jerusalem wedding hall. Only madmen continue dancing on the top floor while the pillars below are collapsing.

We have grown accustomed to ignoring the suffering of the women at the roadblocks. No wonder we don't hear the cries of the abused woman living next door or the single mother struggling to support her children in dignity. We don't even bother to count the women murdered by their husbands.

Israel, having ceased to care about the children of the Palestinians, should not be surprised when they come washed in hatred and blow themselves up in the centers of Israeli escapism. They consign themselves to Allah in our places of recreation, because their own lives are torture. They spill their own blood in our restaurants in order to ruin our appetites, because they have children and parents at home who are hungry and humiliated.

We could kill a thousand ringleaders and engineers a day and nothing will be solved, because the leaders come up from below — from the wells of hatred and anger, from the "infrastructures" of injustice and moral corruption.

If all this were inevitable, divinely ordained and immutable, I would be silent. But things could be different, and so crying out is a moral imperative.

Here is what the prime minister should say to the people:

The time for illusions is over. The time for decisions has arrived. We love the entire land of our forefathers and in some other time we would have wanted to live here alone. But that will not happen. The Arabs, too, have dreams and needs.

Between the Jordan and the Mediterranean there is no longer a clear Jewish majority. And so, fellow citizens, it is not possible to keep the whole thing without paying a price. We cannot keep a Palestinian majority under an Israeli boot and at the same time think ourselves the only democracy in the Middle East. There cannot be democracy without equal rights for all who live here, Arab as well as Jew. We cannot keep the territories and preserve a Jewish majority in the world's only Jewish state — not by means that are humane and moral and Jewish.

Do you want the greater Land of Israel? No problem. Abandon democracy. Let's institute an efficient system of racial separation here, with prison camps and detention villages. Qalqilya Ghetto and Gulag Jenin.

Do you want a Jewish majority? No problem. Either put the Arabs on railway cars, buses, camels and donkeys and expel them en masse — or separate ourselves from them absolutely, without tricks and gimmicks. There is no middle path. We must remove all the settlements — all of them — and draw an internationally recognized border between the Jewish national home and the Palestinian national home. The Jewish Law of Return will apply only within our national home, and their right of return will apply only within the borders of the Palestinian state.

Do you want democracy? No problem. Either abandon the greater Land of Israel, to the last settlement and outpost, or give full citizenship and voting rights to everyone, including Arabs. The result, of course, will be that those who did not want a Palestinian state alongside us will have one in our midst, via the ballot box.

That's what the prime minister should say to the people. He should present the choices forthrightly: Jewish racialism or democracy. Settlements or hope for both peoples. False visions of barbed wire, roadblocks and suicide bombers, or a recognized international border between two states and a shared capital in Jerusalem.

But there is no prime minister in Jerusalem. The disease eating away at the body of Zionism has already attacked the head. David Ben-Gurion sometimes erred, but he remained straight as an arrow. When Menachem Begin was wrong, nobody impugned his motives. No longer. Polls published last weekend showed that a majority of Israelis do not believe in the personal integrity of the prime minister — yet they trust his political leadership. In other words, Israel's current prime minister personally embodies both halves of the curse: suspect personal morals and open disregard for the law — combined with the brutality of occupation and the trampling of any chance for peace. This is our nation, these its leaders. The inescapable conclusion is that the Zionist revolution is dead.

Why, then, is the opposition so quiet? Perhaps because it's summer, or because they are tired, or because some would like to join the government at any price, even the price of participating in the sickness. But while they dither, the forces of good lose hope.

This is the time for clear alternatives. Anyone who declines to present a clear-cut position — black or white — is in effect collaborating in the decline. It is not a matter of Labor versus Likud or right versus left, but of right versus wrong, acceptable versus unacceptable. The law-abiding versus the lawbreakers. What's needed is not a political replacement for the Sharon government but a vision of hope, an alternative to the destruction of Zionism and its values by the deaf, dumb and callous.

Israel's friends abroad — Jewish and non-Jewish alike, presidents and prime ministers, rabbis and lay people — should choose as well. They must reach out and help Israel to navigate the road map toward our national destiny as a light unto the nations and a society of peace, justice and equality.

Translated by J.J. Goldberg.

Avraham Burg was speaker of Israel's Knesset from 1999 to 2003 and is a former chairman of the Jewish Agency for Israel. He is currently a Labor Party Knesset member. This essay is adapted by the author from an article that appeared in Yediot Aharonot.

http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.08.29/oped3.html

read it and weep, 'bevie'

"??": "Slither back under the rock whence you came."

JA: Hey, "??", are you Zionists so weak for comeback retorts that you have to plagiarize *MY* quotes?

"??": "Your musings don't warrant any intelligent response."

JA: I see it didn't *get* one.

"??": "Hey pre-adolescence Laughing-Boy
by ?? Wednesday September 03, 2003 at 05:24 AM.

JA: "adolescence" is a *noun* 'o nonintelligent one'; you need an *adjective* "*adolescent*". Using the noun makes you look...well...STUPID!! On second thought, forget about it. My advice won't change that!

Also, how do you know that "?" is "a boy"?

"??": "Your musings... They are crap laden with lies."

JA: And, as usual for a Zionist, you've intellectually rebutted them so *well*!

"??": (And the OT history is very relevant to Muslims, isn't it?)

JA: "?'s" Bible is *CHRISTIAN*: "But, as someone raised Christian, I do know that the Jews of the Old Testament did more than a little gratuitous killing and massacring (sometimes of entire towns) themselves (and sometimes even of each other). So, what does that make them?"

So is mine. Pick one up. (Start with Genesis, about Dinah, the Hebrew peace agreement, and the cynical betrayal by Jacob's sons. Now, I'm no Bible expert, but reading that looks pretty bad.)

I said it before, I'll say it again (only this time a little differently, with some elaboration, so that your malevolence is further exposed):

Islam began in early 7th century AD. The OT history ended in 164 BCE (with the Book of Daniel hinting to the Maccabbean first victories and purification of the 2nd Jewish Temple that year).

The OT history therefore is NOT relevant to Islam and the history of the Muslims, other than being used as yet another stick by you Jew haters to beat the Jews with.

Avraham Burg is a leftist; many leftwing Zionists in Israel disagree with the views he manifests in that article in varying degrees.
So with all due respect to his opinions, they are not gospel nor holy writ.

I had read that article before and didn't weep. So you think you can now make me weep, o tear jerking darling?

"""ISRAELI SCHOLAR BARUCH KIMMERLING believes that the government of Israel has tried to commit what he calls Israel's "politicide" (political genocide) against the Palestinian people -- that is, Israel's systematic destruction of the Palestinians as a national entity -- since the inception of the Jewish state.

Roane Carey intimately relates Dr. Kimmerling's argument, including the role Ariel Sharon has played in provoking and escalating the level of violence in the Middle East.""""(from above article)

The Past is Past...
Now there are some 5,000,000 Jewish People in the area in question....So if there is to be any peace in the region Israel must be recognized and be allowed to exist....But to have real Peace we need to recognize the right of some 3,500,000 Palestinian People to have their country in the Whole of the West Bank and Gaza which is only 22% of what is TODAY, Israel, West Bank and Gaza....
This needs to be done now if the so called Road Map has any chance of Surviving.

Deaths since the start of the Intifada, Who is killing whom anyway??? (Includes innocent children on both sides)
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

For a Possible Solution to this on going Conflict:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php

To the people posting above, The Road Map that is being worked on by the U.S., E.U., U.N., and Russia calls for a two-state Solution....

I am for this two State Solution but it needs to be done now and the New Palestinian State needs reasonable borders set to pre 1967 line..(Also know as the Green line...

Well, I was up late watching Jessica Tuchman Matthews kick the Arab Uncle Tom Fouad Ajami's ass. Now I'll kick this fool, "??'s" ass for a nightcap.

??: "I said it before, I'll say it again (only this time a little differently, with some elaboration, so that your malevolence is further exposed):"

?: Yeah, it's 'obvious' for all to see.

The only malevolence I have is for racism and other forms of mass injustice.

(There's one similarity between you and Ajami: you can put both your brains in a thimble.)

"??": "Islam began in early 7th century AD. The OT history ended in 164 BCE (with the Book of Daniel hinting to the Maccabbean first victories and purification of the 2nd Jewish Temple that year)."

?: YYYYAWWWNNN.... Will you 'listen' to this guy???

And he thinks that Palestinians are just going to forget about their homes and land and farms and groves lost continuously..., well..., even since *yesterday*!! -- let alone 50 years ago, upon the declaration of "the Jewish state"-- the (what do you Zionists call your state?) "the light unto the world"!!??? We can only shudder at what you Zionists do against Palestinians in the DARK!!

I was just reading, last night, about Jabotinsky and some other right-wing 'revisionist' hardcore arch-Zionists. I believe they wanted Israel to go from the *NILE* to the *EUPHRATES*!! That's how rabid they were!! Well, Sharon knows he can't get the Nile, so his desire is Israel from the Mediterranean to the Euphrates-- that's all.

What's more and more obvious is that right-wing Jews/Zionists weren't that different in their racial psyches from other Europeans. European leaders often believed in empire and later imperialism. (Not that others across the globe, then, didn't.) Jabotinsky, Herzl (who one Jew told me was a Prussian: he said, do you know what that means?!), and other right-wing Jews carried the deep bigotries of the day.

They, as Jews, just happened to be on the bottom for centuries (like the so-called Gypsies, or the so-called "Untouchables", or the Barakumin, or the Ainu, or for a shorter period, the Armenians, or even the Kurds, etc) and those Jews just wanted somewhere to be on top! That's why I have pointed out that Israel/Zionism is merely continuing the discredited cycle of ethnic conquest and subjugation.

The first time I went to Europe, I could understand all those 10-20-30-year wars and stuff: people in some European countries *still* 'hate' other *Europeans* even over the next hill or in the next town, let alone the next country. Many of the British (especially the English) won't even consider themselves part of Europe for goodness sake! Bavaria practically makes even other Germans reapply for Bavarian 'citizenship' to live and work there. Even at the time of Hitler, German Jews often looked down on Slavic Jews. (German Jews sometimes said that Slavic Jews were giving German Jews a bad name.) Ashenazi Jews often looked down on Sepharidic and Mizrahi Jews, as well as, of course, Arabs. Jews in the U.S. were often racist against Blacks. Now Europe also produced many left-wing Jews, because they (typically, as a political collection, anti-Zionist to this day) believed that *NO ONE* should be oppressed, not even by Jews. Left-wing, anti-Zionist Jews also did not believe in ethnic chauvinism or national chauvinism, not even nationalism at all. Left-wing Jews were adamantly anti-racist -- in Europe or in the U.S. -- and other Jews often hated them too!

Now Jewish racism doesn't, of course, excuse Hitler as a madman, but it does explain how Zionist Jews could easily continue the cycle of imperialism, ethnic conquest and subjugation -- and feel *PERFECTLY JUSTIFIED* in doing so!! WHY?: BECAUSE *THEY* -- *JEWS* -- WERE ONCE KICKED AROUND!!

And then Zionist Jews come up with the most *RIDICULOUS* pretext in the world!!!

(1) "God" promised Abraham -- 5,000 years ago, mind you -- that the Jews could have Israel, even today!!!

(2) The Jews had a country in Palestine 2,000 years ago (kicked out not by Arabs/Muslims, but by Europeans, *Romans*!!! (So, why don't you go to *Italy* and get your country from *them* as payback?)

IS THIS SOME KIND OF NUTTY 'JUSTIFICATION' OR *WHAT*!!!??? IT TAKES A TRULY WARPED MIND TO BELIEVE THAT -- OR TO TRY TO GET THAT PAST ANY SANE, MORAL PERSON.

THAT'S WHY AMERICAN ZIONISTS MUST TRY TO PHSICALLY OR ECONOMICALLY THREATEN AND TRY TO INTIMIDATE PUBLIC FIGURES AND OTHERS WITH PUBLIC STATUS (like even university professors)--ESPECIALLY IN THE MEDIA--INTO NOT EVEN PUBLICLY QUESTIONING THIS INSANE 'JUSTIFICATION' AS WELL AS THE BRUTAL OPPRESSION OF OTHERS (PALESTINIANS) BASED ON THAT INSANE 'JUSTIFICATION'.

Zionists could *ONLY* perpetrate that at the barrel of a gun, or tank, or F-16 missile launcher, or Cobra helicopter gunship, armed and backed by the imperialist powers and now the world's only superpower.

Meanwhile, these same racist Zionist Jews--and especially their right-wing domestic Zionist leaders--are excoriating Blacks in the U.S. that "Affirmative Action" remedies for U.S. crimes against humanity and mass civil rights violations, against Blacks, not legally ending--strictly on paper--until 1965--in a country still existing--is "reverse racism". Does *that* make you mad enough to say, "Fuckin' hypocrites!!"?: Israel, the biggest "affirmative action" case in the history of the world!!

"??": "The OT history therefore is NOT relevant to Islam and the history of the Muslims,"

?: *YYYAWWWNNN*...

You or one of your ilk was pointing out how Arabs supposedly historically oppressed Jews (a discredited claim), like Europeans in Europe. So, I pointed out that even in Biblical times (since Zionists like to use the Bible to claim some kind of sanctified right to Isreal) that ancient Jews have done their own share of conquering, massacring, raping, pillaging and plundering. *MY* point has been made.


"??": "other than being used as yet another stick by you [ *** HERE IT COMES!!! *** ] JEW HATERS to beat the JEW[SSSS]S with."

?: BIG(!!!!!) ****YYYYYYAWWWWWWNNNNNNN*****....!!!!!


Nighty-night!!...

"...if the so called Road Map has any chance of Surviving."

Hey buddy. Wake up and smell the coffee! The "Road Map" is dead!

It always was! Sharon was always going to make sure of that! Sharon "never misses an opportunity to destroy an opportunity".

"But to have real Peace we need to recognize the right of some 3,500,000 Palestinian People to have their country in the Whole of the West Bank and Gaza which is only 22% of what is TODAY, Israel..."

How generous. A whole 22%, minus the large settlements and their even larger security perimeters.

(By the way, you mean, "22% of what is TODAY, PALESTINE". Israel is IN Palestine. Well, some of it is in Syria too. Some of it, a sliver, may still be in Lebanon too. Some of it is in Gaza and the West Bank too. Some of it, the wall, is in Palestinian olive orchards. Some of it is in Washington, D.C., too.)

""Two State Solution...
by ..... Friday September 05, 2003 at 02:30 AM""(Not by ....., was posted by a Coward who is afaraid to use his/her own or How sad that he/she must be mentally deficient and cannot compose his/her own rebuttal to a posting. The fake ANGEL is "....." ).

I'm really sorry....


Correction:

"""ISRAELI SCHOLAR BARUCH KIMMERLING believes that the government of Israel has tried to commit what he calls Israel's "politicide" (political genocide) against the Palestinian people -- that is, Israel's systematic destruction of the Palestinians as a national entity -- since the inception of the Jewish state.

Roane Carey intimately relates Dr. Kimmerling's argument, including the role Ariel Sharon has played in provoking and escalating the level of violence in the Middle East.""""(from above article)

The Past is Past???

Now there are more than 5,000,000 Jewish People in the area in question....So if there is to be any peace in the region the Palestinians must recognize Israel ....But to have Real Peace we first need to find a way to teach the some 3,500,000 Palestinian People not to behave like crazed idiots anymore....
This needs to be done now if the so called Road Map has any chance of Surviving.

Deaths since the start of the Intifada, Who is murdering whom anyway??? (Includes innocent children on both sides)
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
The Palestinians murder Jews, the Jews almost never murder Palestinians...

For an Impossible Solution to this on going Conflict:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php

To the people posting above, The Road Map that is being worked on by the U.S., E.U., U.N., and Russia calls for a two-state Solution....

I am for this two State Solution which needs to be done Eventually, after the Palestinians abandon belligerency for good and adopt democracy, and the New Palestinian State needs Reasonable Borders, therefore not set to pre 1967 lines (which are unresonable for any state to exist in).

PS: "....." is the ANGEL impostor...

should dismiss JA's post above.

JA: "You or one of your ilk was pointing out how Arabs supposedly historically oppressed Jews (a discredited claim)"

??: you have been lying, are lying and probably will continue lying for years to come where Jews are concerned.

Serious informed readers should disregard JA's post for those 2 lies alone. As usual, JA, true to the "anti-Zionist" tradition here, changed the issues, which were too painful for his sorry ass to bear.

JA's rantings, like a crazed lunatic who was just fed some crack, aren't based in truth or reality in the least.

Normal, educated people here (the select few that are here) should be offended that the likes of JA actually spew such obsessive hatred, totally devoid of facts or a balanced perspective.

There are two possible responses to JA's filth:

(1) Laugh at him

(2) Be disgusted that such vile, hateful, dishonest people exist and share the same internet as you.

To end all atrocities on both side we need that Palestinian State Eventually (Wonderful Road Map) provided the Palestinians can find at least 10 or 20 of them who care more about a state than about killing Ira or Moshe.

Who is killing whom, anyway, to find out notice that when Palestinians successfully murder innocent civilians they brag about it, when Israelis kill innocent people they are regretful:

To end the resistance to the Occupation you have to end the Occupation that allows for the resistance….

Jordan is 80% of old Palestine, the remaining 20% is dvided up between Israel and the Palestinians, and with each war the Palestinians are losing more land, so you would think Palestinians would learn that peace is a solution and war is not, but they appear to be very very thick headed!

For there to be Peace there must be a way of teaching the Palestinian People not to be crazed idiots.
We need a Palestinian State with Reasonable Borders, unless the Palestinians continue to worship hamas murderers, then they deserve nothing but a one way ticket to Jordan, Syria or Lebanon. NOW, If the Road Map that is backed by the U.S., U.N., E.U., and Russia is to work...
Send in a Joint, U.S., U.N. Peace keeping Force to the West Bank and Gaza for the sole purpose of trying to avoid conflicts between the Palestinian and the settlers..
SETTING THE BORDERS BACK TO 1967 IS AN ABSURD SUGGESTION, WHAT COUNTRIES ON THIS PLANET EVER GET MADE TO GIVE BACK LAND THEY WON IN A DEFENSIVE WAR 36 YEARS EARLIER???
In return the Palestinian Refugees, who are still refugees because they are such horrible people that Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, IRan, Iraq and Israel ALL DON'T WANT THEM!
One complaint that Israel has is that the Right of Return will result in two Palestinian States, which is true, and that's why it is a ridiculous thing to suggest. Also, since jews don't get a right of return to arab countries that took their land, why would jews be asked to do it, especially after all the wars against the jews?
(The Right of return is almost impossible any way because the land and homes they lost are now built up with Jewish homes businesses etc…)
The Refugees can be helped to settle somewhere in the new Palestinian State..
The Settlements are now part of Palestine...
If the some 300,000 Israeli Settlers living in Palestine do not like living there, they can move to Israel...
If the 1,000,000 or so Palestinians who now live in Israel do not like living in Israel, they can move to Palestine...
If 1,000,000 or so Palestinians can live in Israel, then some 300,000 Israeli Settlers can live in Palestine if they choose to stay..
If this solution was implemented there is a good chance the palestinian terrorists who think it is impressive to murder innocent nice jewish people would probably keep right on attacking, since they are rabid lunatics, but at least maybe some nice palestinians might finally speak out against them.

Israel: We have to confiscate Palestinian land and demolish Palestinian homes because we hae given these people tons of chances to make an agreement but the palestinains are the dumbest people on earth.
Palestine: We have to defend ourselves because we are too stupid to realize that Israel isn't going to disappear, and attacking Israel does not help us. Even dogs and cats learn not to do things that hurt them, so why do palestinians insist on attacking israel when they know all it will do is prevent israel from being able to trust them with land control?????

You and I know that the hamsters who will not turn out the lights are like the palestinians who might not wish that you would see then if the kangaroos would simply put the lampshade over the drunken guy's head then the borders would be more accurate.

Who is Yasser Arafat and why is he such a useless idiot?
CLICK HERE > http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/arafat.html

If the Palestinians have so much history, how come there was no country called Palestine, there is no Palestinian language, the Palestinian culture is no different than Arabs in nearby countries, there is no past Palestinian government, etc.?????
CLICK HERE > http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/palestinians.html

Since it is a fact that Arabs had full control of Palestinian land from 1948 to 1967, why are the Palestinians still refugees? Why did Arabs control Palestinian land but just keep making war on Israel, lose the wars, and then still call these arabs "refugees?" Haven't all refugees on earth other than palestinians gotten on with their lives? Why did these people spend more time making wars then even forming a simple government when they had full control of themselves and had no reason not to do so?
CLICK HERE > http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/refugees.html

For today's weather
CLICK HERE > http://www.weather.com

quote:
=================================
JA's rantings, like a crazed lunatic who was just fed some crack, =================================

strike #1 - argumentum ad hominem

(a logical fallacy)



quote:
================================
...aren't based in truth or reality in the least.
================================


Have you read the text of U.S. President Woodrow WIlon's 1919 King-Crane Commission Report on Zionism?

Care for a full copy of the text?

eg:

QUOTE:
***********************************************************
"a national HOME for the Jewish people" is NOT equivalent to making Palestine into a Jewish STATE; nor can the erection of such a Jewish State be accomplished without the gravest trespass upon the "civil and religious rights of existing NON-JEWISH COMMUNITIES in PALESTINE." The fact came out repeatedly in the Commission's conference with Jewish representatives, that the Zionists looked forward to a practically COMPLETE DISPOSSESSION of the present non-Jewish inhabitants of Palestine, by various forms of purchase.
[...]

If...the wishes of Palestine's population are to be decisive as to what is to be done with Palestine, then it is to be remembered that the non-Jewish population of Palestine-NEARLY NINE-TENTHS OF THE WHOLE-are emphatically AGAINST the entire Zionist program
[...]

No British officer, consulted by the Commissioners, believed that the Zionist program could be carried out except by force of arms. The officers generally thought that a force of not less than 50,000 soldiers would be required even to initiate the program. That of itself is evidence of a strong sense of THE INJUSTICE of the Zionist program. ...the initial claim, often submitted by Zionist representatives, that they have a "right" to Palestine, based on an occupation of 2,000 years ago, CAN HARDLY BE SERIOUSLY CONSIDERED.
[...]

With the best possible intentions, it may be doubted whether the Jews could possibly seem to either Christians or Moslems proper guardians of the holy places, or custodians of the Holy Land as a whole.

The reason is this: The places which are most sacred to Christians-those having to do with Jesus-and which are also sacred to Moslems, are not only NOT sacred to Jews, but ABHORRENT to them. (*)
*********************************************************

(*) ---> Abhorrence

The Faithful are Allowed to Carry the Cornerstone to the Area of the Hulda Gates of the Temple Mount
The >>Israeli Supreme Court Decides<<< on the Faithful Movement Petition

[...] I want to bring a word from G–d to the enemies of Israel and to all the nations in the world. DO NOT EVEN TRY to prevent this godly event and process. The PURIFICATION of the Temple Mount from the foreigners and enemies of Israel and their DESECRATION of the holy site of G–d and the rebuilding of the temple cannot be prevented. This is a major historical, prophetic, END-TIME event which the G–d of Israel and the Universe will soon bring to completion in our lifetime. G–d anointed Israel to rebuild this house and to serve Him in this great house not only for the people of Israel but for all the nations as the prophet Isaiah stated - “... for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.” (Isaiah56:7)

Temple Mount Faithful
http://www.templemountfaithful.org/Events/tishabav5761b.htm
************************************************************

(a tiny sample of the industrial-strength evidence available in support of JA's claims.)

>>>> strike #2 <<<<


quote:
================================
Normal, educated people here (the select few that are here) should be offended that the likes...
===============================
appeal to emotion: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-emotion.html
entwined within an argument ad populum (bandwagon fallacy):
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html


>>>>> strike # 3 <<<<<<


& - thanks bev!

>>"You or one of your ilk was pointing out how Arabs supposedly historically oppressed Jews (a discredited claim)"

??: "you have been lying, are lying and probably will continue lying for years to come where THE [ *** HERE IT COMES!!! *** ***AGAIN!!!!!*** ] *****JEWWWWWWSSSSSSS***** are concerned."


****YYYYYYAWWWWWWNNNNNNN*****....

The fact JA's rantings and ravings are indeed based in reality to a certain extent and not totally devoid of facts lends his Jew hatred lies and obsessive compulsive behavior far more illegitimacy than those of a person whose anti-Semitism isn't grounded in reality at all.
I personally think nobody should waste their getting-offended energy on a hate mongering liar like JA.
Just laugh at him and/or post rebuttals. Then let him reply ranting yet more, idly and falsely boasting his self imagined victory. Be aware of his defeat or loss deep down and don't let him get to you.

As for CFB, it's my opinion he's a Jew hating rabble rouser.
The photo he clipped is one of Dr. Baruch Goldstein, the Jew who massacred some 32 Muslim worshipers in the Tomb of the Patriarchs in 1994.
What was CFB's objective in so doing? He's yet another anti-Semite and probably related to or associated with Nessie (notice the "Logic Arsenal" he pulled out, one which Nessie often uses).

be anti-Semitic?

he's an anti-Semitic provocateur.
Why in the hell did he clip that picture sporting the loggo of a legitimate and non-racist organization (at least to sane, normal, educated, rational people) - Birthright Israel - superimposed on Dr. Goldstein's T-shirt? I conclude he tried to inflame anti-Jewish ("anti-Zionist") passions.

And this person has the gall to proceed to use logical tools to try and discredit another poster's claims.

The very concept that the right to control territory should be determined by lineage is racist.

Why is anti-Semitism the only kind of racism I ever hear you object to? Don't you mind the other kinds? Don't they offend you, too? I guess not.

Read Jewish-American, adamantly anti-Zionist, foremost Zionist and Israel history scholar, Lenni Brenner's book: "51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis", 2002, Barricade Books, 342 pgs.

Answer: Adolf Hitler

See:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/04/120352_comment.php#120573

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/05/127448_comment.php#127704

"You or one of your ilk was pointing out how Arabs supposedly historically oppressed Jews (a discredited claim)"
A) This is ridiculous not just because we could name incidence of opression of jews in arab countries but because even in principle it is not a claim that can be "discredited".
Since you cannot find proof that some type of behaviour has never happened to claim that you have just shows you are a lier.
Interesting in the context of all the other times you have used this claim.

Scottie: "...it is not a claim that can be "discredited". ...Since you cannot find proof that some type of behaviour has never happened...just shows you are a lier."

Of course it can theoretically be discredited. Of course, one can theoretically prove that . Just find an historical event (records, documentation, or other evidence thereof) of an asserted 'Jewish Holocaust' committed by Arabs or 'Arab Inquisition' against Jews. That would disprove that there weren't any such events. (You can disprove a negative by finding one positive.) If there is no known evidence of such an event, where anthropological, forensic, and/or written documentation would obviously exist, then you have reasonable proof that there were no such events (or at least one can prove that there are no such known events recorded in human history). But, then, Simple Scottie never excelled at logic.

Oh, there's that damn logic gettin' in the way of Zionist propaganda!

Baruch Goldstein was born in Brooklyn and raised as a Jewish fundamentalist.

Baruch Goldstein exploited his Judenstaat-sanctioned "birthright" to "return" to the "promised land". He then "massacred some 32 Muslim worshipers in the Tomb of the Patriarchs in 1994."

But Baruch was born in Brooklyn!

"a legitimate and non-racist organization"

some anti-CFB info here!

Your "anti Zionist" rabble rousing on this thread hasn't promoted tolerance.
You too have appealed to emotion, not only the other poster you tried to discredit. Deny it all you want, I've formed a negative opinion about you on this thread.

I'm not impressed with the link about the historic CFB, whose murder I'm aware of. Your distinctly "anti-Zionist" and pro-Palestinian bias disqualifies YOU yourself from being a peace mediator.

Tolerance is not what we're trying to promote. Justice is what we're trying to promote. First comes justice, then comes peace. Then tolerance will come on its own.

Israel won control of the west bank and gaza (which were under the control of egypt/jordan/syria/etc., NOT under palestinian control) decades ago. Regardless of how or why, right now a massive percentage of palestinians want israel to cease to exist, and a minor yet substantial percentage of them think that blowing themselves up along with jews in the process not only benefits their people but somehow impresses God. These people are out of their minds. Furthermore, it is a fact that each time these years that Israel has withdrawn from palestinian towns, terrorist attacks against israel have INCREASED. That is not the way you show israel that you are going to be nice and not insane anymore. To expect Israel to reward these terrorists by handing full control of the land over to the palestinians, who are still controlled by the likes of arafat and hamas and islamic jihad far more than they are controlled by the only moderate among them, abu mazen, is ridiculous.

First, the palestinian terrorist groups need to disappear, somehow.

Once israel isn't being attacked, and there are palestinian forces that aren't controlled by arafat or hamas or islamic jihad who can be given control of palestinian land so they can police their own people effectively, israel can and will hand land control over so the palestinians can form a state, something they could have done for NINETEEN YEARS back from 1948-1967 yet CHOSE to not do so, and CHOSE to just keep trying to make israel go away.

First, israel's neighbors become normal and civil, somehow, and israel's neighbors' leaders need to be moderate normal people who don't think allah will love them more for "martyring" themselves.

THEN, israel can turn land over on a permanent basis. Not before.

The longer people continue to attack israel, the more land israel should consider annexing on a permanent basis.

I do not like ariel sharon, but I don't see many alternatives other than maintaining military control until it's safe to no longer do so.

Hamas don't want israel to leave the west bank and gaza strip. Hamas want israel to cease to exist. For the jews, who are 1/3 of the jews on earth, to pack up and leave, or to die, whichever is quicker.

Your version of justice in this conflict is beyond reach. Anyway, you cannot force Israel to "behave", as you put it on another thread. Also, most Israelis disagree with you and you won't sway their opinions toward yours after what the Palestinians have done from 2000 onwards. Anti-Zionism has been in a constant retreat in Israeli society, and the education ministry has already begun reinstilling Zionist values to pupils in Israel's schools.

Of more importance, the conflict has proven that first we need tolerance between Israelis and Palestinians - and the Pallys are much more lacking in this department - then some sort of compromise can be achieved. Neither side will ever get its coveted justice to the fullest extent. It's high time you began realizing this.

>the education ministry has already begun reinstilling Zionist values to pupils in Israel's schools.

Children are being brainwashed into believing in racism.

> we need tolerance between Israelis and Palestinians

Israelis want Palestinians to tolerate being oppressed.

Your "translation" is your own unfounded anti-Zionist spin. You're a psychic?
So you're not a translator, unless you've translated that poster's claims into your delusional unfounded take on matters.

you are trying to up the level of proof to require a "holocaust" or an "inquisition" because you know the europeans used those two methods.
And yet the claim was that of oppression.

Anyway as for inquisitions/ opression

For example, decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Egypt & Syria (1014, 1293, 1301), Iraq (854, 1344) and Yemen (1676). Forced conversions (or death) in Morocco (1275, 1465, 1790) and Baghdad (1333, 1344). Even massacres (5000 Jews in Grenada in 1066, all but 11 Jews in Fez in 1465), Libya (1785), Algiers (1805, 1815, 1830) and Morocco (1864 and 1880).

from here
http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2003/04/40079.php

Your invited to start disproving these evvents one by one.
but this is only the very very beginning there are thousands more. And you could not reasonably be expected to have more than a tiny fraction of the incidents recorded in history

but there is no point as it is obvious that an invading muslim army would tend to use some form of opression upon other religions. That is a big reason why those countries converted to islam.
Everyone can see that.

"The very concept that the right to control territory should be determined by lineage is racist."

Tell that also to all the Arab and the majority of Muslim states.

"Why is anti-Semitism the only kind of racism I ever hear you object to? Don't you mind the other kinds? Don't they offend you, too? I guess not."

Who exactly were you talking to?
If you were addressing me, how do you know I've been using other screen names?
You find it very easy to utter bullshit but you won't be able to reply conclusively.

Scottie's cribbing from a master propagandist: "For example, decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Egypt & Syria (1014, 1293, 1301), Iraq (854, 1344) and Yemen (1676). Forced conversions (or death) in Morocco (1275, 1465, 1790) and Baghdad (1333, 1344). Even massacres (5000 Jews in Grenada in 1066, all but 11 Jews in Fez in 1465), Libya (1785), Algiers (1805, 1815, 1830) and Morocco (1864 and 1880)."

My reply:

The propagandist is engaged in (il)logical and moral diversion and 'justification', even reaching back to ancient history, the Dark Ages, and the Middle Ages. That is ridiculous! What does that have to do with what Israel is doing to the Palestinians today? His 'history' has no moral bearance with regard to Israel's brutal oppression of another people, the Palestinian Arabs. Ancient Jews attacked others too and commited atrocities (read the story of Dinah and Jacob's peace betrayal in the Old Testament), would that justify persecution of Jews since then?

Given that we have no idea of the real truth of the propagandist's typically contrived and twisted Zionist propaganda history, and given that it would be anti-Semitic for someone to say that Jews today should pay for the crimes of ancient Jewish atrocities and aggressions, so it would be "anti-Semitic"/racist to say that Palestinians (who are also Semites) today should pay for the 'crimes' of any other Arabs. After I came to the United States, I committed my life to anti-racism. Let us see what I had to say:


"Should we be unable to find a way to honest cooperation and honest pacts with the Arabs, then we have learned absolutely nothing during our 2,000 years of suffering and deserve ALL that will come to us.*

Albert Einstein

quote:
====================================
Your "anti Zionist" rabble rousing on this thread hasn't promoted tolerance.
====================================

a) Zero tolerance for racism = Zero tolerance for intolerance = Zero tolerance for Zionism.

b) rabble-rousing for Zion:


quote:
***********************************************
Forward - 1998
What the Jewish Community Might Accomplish

[...] A resident fellow at the A[merican] E[nterprise] I[nstitute], Richard Perle, is calling upon both Israel and the American Jewish community to support the INC. "Israel has not devoted the political or rhetorical time or energy to Saddam that they have to the Iranians. The case for the Iraqi opposition in Congress would be a lot more favorable with Israeli support," said Mr. Perle, who was assistant secretary of defense for international security policy during the Reagan administration.

With regard to the American Jewish community, Mr. Perle said: "There's NO QUESTION that the Jewish community's been at the forefront with the legislation with regard to Iran. One can only speculate what it might accomplish if it decided to focus its attention on Saddam Hussein."

http://www.forward.com/BACK/1998/98.07.31/news.html
***************************************************


re Baruch's Birthright Pixelry:


quote:
=========================================
You too have appealed to emotion, not only the other poster you tried to discredit.
=========================================

Any emotions felt resulted from the individual discriminator's interpretation of the factual evidence presented. Contrary to the presentation of your unsubstantiated assertions, I delivered no insults, no ad hominem abuse, and no appeals to popularity, belief, opinion or authority.


Baruch Goldstein WAS born in Brooklyn.
Baruch Goldstein DID exploit his Judenstaat-sanctioned "birthright" to "return" to the "promised land"

The information presented in my 27k flash was merely designed to expose racist double-standards.


Care to talk discuss the Palestinian right to return?


quote:
========================================
Deny it all you want, I've formed a negative opinion about you on this thread.
========================================


I suppose that means you didn't like my pixelry... :(

Did you press the buttons?


quote:
=========================================
I'm not impressed with the link about the historic CFB,
=========================================

- you can rate the page for accuracy if you wish - it isn't mine.


care to discuss the role of the Irgun Zvai Leumi in the assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte?

quote:
========================================
Your distinctly "anti-Zionist" and pro-Palestinian bias disqualifies YOU yourself from being a peace mediator.
=========================================

care to discuss the CONTENT of US President Woodrow Wilson's amazingly prophetic 1919 King-Crane Commission Report on Zionism?


I'm yet to find ANY Zionist ANYWHERE who will...

"Zero tolerance for racism = Zero tolerance for intolerance = Zero tolerance for Zionism".

Zionism in and of itself isn't a form of intolerance.
For proof, try reading Ahad Ha'am's (conceiver of spiritual Zionism) writing's; Jabotinsky (conciever of Revisionist Zionism) envisioned in a song he penned a state where the ""son of Arabia" (Arabs), Son of Nazareth (Christians) and my own (Jews)" would all saturate themselves in happiness and bounty."

These are just examples.
More often than not, it's much more justified to establish:
Zero tolerance for racism = Zero tolerance for intolerance = Zero tolerance for anti-Zionism.

Second person plural. I'm talking to all of the people who come on to this site under all their different names and whine about anti-Semitism every time somebody criticizes Israel, but never, never, never say an unkind word about any other kind of racism. I don't know your names or how many of you there really are, and I don't care, either. Whoever you are, you're racist scum. Die off and quit wasting air.

Ezra Pound wrote poetry, too. So what? Just because you write a poem or two doesn't make you not a fascist. People should be judged by their actions, not their words. Jabotinsky sowed death and oppression. The wise and the just all spit on his grave.

"never, never, never say an unkind word about any other kind of racism. "

I don't answer to that definition, yet am afraid nearly ALL anti-Zionists on this site never condemn Arab or Muslim racism, and it would seem that includes you as well.

"Whoever you are, you're racist scum. Die off and quit wasting air."

No, you're tha racist lowlife.
Die off? You first.

Wrong.
He sowed life and liberty.

Fyi, he and his movement were much more democratic than were Ben-Gurion and Mapai (the precursor of Labor). Had he not died in 1940 and come to power, the course of Israel's history could have beem much different till 1967.
He even espoused having an Arab deputy prime minister under himself or whatever Herut PM.
The wise and the just all should rever him every bit as BG is revered.

Get all your facts straight before you start ranting.

re-peat:
=======================
care to discuss the CONTENT of US President Woodrow Wilson's amazingly prophetic 1919 King-Crane Commission Report on Zionism?


I'm yet to find ANY Zionist ANYWHERE who will...
======================

... that according to my Concerned Zionist pal in other threads here, none of them can read that well. Perhaps if you put it on audio??

In March, 1994, an angry and crazed Dr. Baruch Goldstein supposedly walked into the Hebron Mosque within the Cave of the Patriarchs and shot 29 worshipers dead, while wounding another 60. A reexamination of the evidence more than indicates that Dr. Goldstein was, in fact, a completely innocent victim of a Shabak (General Security Services) sting operation.

I had suspected something like that back in April 1994, when I published the article, Goldstein's Accomplices in my newsletter Inside Israel, but I didn't have enough evidence to reach this conclusion until an Israeli researcher, Avraham Yosef, provided me the smoking guns this week.

My suspicions were based on the following facts:


* On the very day of the massacre, an Arab reporter for the news magazine Yerushalayim, Khalad Abu-Tuama interviewed 25 survivors from age nine to eighty in six different hospitals and all said there was either two or three shooters.


* A dozen of these survivors testified that there was more than one shooter at the Shamgar Commission Of Inquiry Into The Hebron Massacre headed by Meir Shamgar, the same former Chief Justice of the Israeli Supreme Court who later presided over the government inquiry which whitewashed the Rabin assassination. Three soldiers on duty also testified that seconds after Goldstein entered the mosque, another Jew carrying a Galil assault weapon followed him in. Shamgar ruled that all the Arab witnesses perjured themselves and that the soldiers were mistaken. Only by doing so could he reach the desirable finding that Goldstein was a lone gunman.

* The Israel Defence Forces (IDF) originally announced that Goldstein had arrived in uniform at the mosque in his civilian Subaru. The Shamgar Comission heard very different evidence. Dr. Goldstein's wife Miriam was surprised to discover a note informing her that Baruch was called to reserve duty. She phoned the IDF duty commander for Kiryat Araba, Shmuel Eidelstein to ask if he knew where her husband was. He said he didn't. And yet, evidence presented at the Shamgar Commission proved that Goldstein arrived in Eidelstein's IDF jeep.

* Orders were issued by the IDF to soldiers at the mosque to prevent all women from entering. No such order had ever been previously given in the soldiers' service.

* The IDF ruled that Goldstein shot 111 rounds in a minute and a half. Ballistics experts such as Mustafa Adawi of the Palestinian police force denied that was possible. All victims of the massacre said the shooting went on for five minutes at least.

* The IDF denied that any of the victims died outside the mosque. In fact, six Arabs, including the mosque iman, were shot by IDF soldiers at an exit door. Shamgar ruled the soldiers shot into an unruly mob in self-defence.

* Police, normally on duty at the mosque, were called away to investigate the shooting of one Muhmad Ibrahim Ayat in Kiryat Arba a few minutes before Goldstein arrived at the mosque.

In the wake of the Rabin assassination, another fact proved most bothersome. The Shabak ran a creepy division in Hebron called the Jewish Department. Its duty was supposedly to surveil "radicals" but in fact, it entrapped young people opposed to the Oslo Agreement in a series of sting operations. Until the Rabin assassination sting, the most serious incident was the entrapment and subsequent long imprisonment of the Kahalani brothers, two innocents set up for planning a "massacre of Arabs." The full details of this sting are found in Chapter Seven of my Feral House book Who Murdered Yitzhak Rabin (cult [at] feralhouse.com).

The head of the Jewish Department at the time of the Hebron massacre was Carmi Gillon. Though it was his duty to surveil a "radical" like Goldstein, he was not called to testify at the commission of inquiry. This was faciliated because his brother Ilan Gillon was the registrar of the court, responsible for witness registration.

Nor was Gillon demoted for the Hebron fiasco. In fact, he was appointed head of the Shabak shortly after, a position he held until a second Shamgar Commission ruled he was guilty of sloppiness in the Rabin assassination.

I add that a few months ago, a source, well placed high in Israel's security and political circles, informed me the real goal of the massacre was to uprise the Arabs into conducting some massacres of Jews in retaliation, forcing the IDF to remove the settlers from Hebron and other sensitive areas in the territories for their own protection. After that, it would be much simpler to fulfill the full terms of the Oslo Agreement with the PLO.

Yet with all these facts and suspicions, I still did not have enough to conclude that Goldstein was just another patsy of peace. One fact stood out for many people; Dr. Goldstein was a mild-mannered, highly educated doctor and a major in the IDF. His transformation into mass murderer did not fit his personality. To bridge the reality gap, Jewish right wing writers have come up with the unlikely theory that calls for a massacre of Jews on Purim from the mosque drove Dr. Goldstein into a sudden, maniacal fit. As psychologically improbable as this thesis is, worse is the justification claimed by some desperate extremists that he slaughtered Arabs to prevent the slaughter of Jews and thus died a hero.

Thanks to the research of Avraham Yosef, we see that Goldstein died as a fall guy. He never intended to shoot anyone.

Mr. Yosef begins his article, The Murder Of Baruch Goldstein with an explanation of how he gathered evidence. Simply, he read every word of the Shamgar Commission report on the Hebron massacre. He notes that even though Dr. Goldstein wasn't there to defend himself, a great deal of evidence on his behalf was unintentionally offered, which was all, very intentionally, dismissed by Shamgar.

The following evidence, taken directly from the Shamgar Commission's Final Report, points to a very different massacre than the one Shamgar described to the public in his findings. Point by point:

* Although the 60 people wounded were of varying ages, all 29 dead were old. Although complete medical reports of the wounded were written, not one full report was prepared for the dead.

* While some of the wounded were shot by bullets, most were hit by shrapnel, the vast majority in their legs.

* A soldier in a booth had the duty of watching the mosque from three TV cameras within the prayer hall. One camera was broken that day and the shooter(s) stood within its lens field. Yosef asks if the shooter(s) was told where to be out of camera range beforehand.

* Dr. Goldstein arrived in IDF unform. The guards asked him if he was on reserve duty and he calmly answered that he was. They reported no change from his normal behaviour. He left before his wife woke up and she knew nothing of a call to serve in the reserves. Yosef asks why he would have bothered putting on a uniform when he could have just as easily entered the mosque in everyday clothing.

* The soldier guarding the prayer hall entrance within the mosque testified that Dr. Goldstein did not pass by him. That means he could have only entered through one of the two locked side entrances and since he didn't have a key, that would have required help.

* An Arab witness who got a close look at Dr. Goldstein described him as being tall and wearing black ear protectors. Goldstein was short and his ear protectors were found in his gun belt unused and colored off white. According to this man's testimony, writes Yosef, Dr. Goldstein wasn't the shooter the man saw.

* Numerous Arabs saw Dr. Goldstein subdued by up to twenty men armed with the same metal nightsticks. The IDF soldier watching the events on his tv monitor, saw three such men armed with iron batons subdue Dr. Goldstein. One Arab witness told the police he saw a man open a storage closet and hand out the nightsticks to the worshipers. Yosef concludes that such a collection of weapons would not likely have been stored inside the mosque unless planted there to be later distributed by an agent provocateur.

* All witnesses, Arab and Jew, heard two explosions before the shooting. Yet no grenade shrapnel was found in the prayer hall. Shamgar concluded that the explosions were caused by the imam Sheikh Jamal Natsha, twice slapping his hand in fear on his microphone, which was broadcast loudly as booms in the speaker system after the shooting began. As Yosef notes, the explosions were heard BEFORE the shooting began "but we will never know the truth since the imam was shot to death while leaving the mosque."

Yosef paints the following scenario. Since he was on standby duty, Dr. Goldstein would not have thought it unusual to be called into the reserves in the middle of the night. He was driven to the mosque and escorted to a side door. He entered with his two unintended accomplices. They threw two stun grenades into the crowd and shot blank bullets. Then they left the prayer hall, locking the door behind them. Goldstein was alone and armed facing the mob.

The old people were trampled by the mob and they were the only ones to die. Notes Yosef, "Dr. Goldstein wasn't capable of killing people so he followed regulations and shot at their feet to keep the crowd at bay. Many bullets ricocheted off the floor, explaining the sharpnel wounds in the legs of most victims."

NAZISM AND ZIONISM

A comparison in pictures:

http://www.iap.org/jewspal.htm

When peace activist, journalist, ex member of Knesset, etc., URI AVNERY, was almost stabbed to death in 1975, it's interesting to note that his attacker was described as "mad".

I remember reading about the the above massacre, and, sure enough, there they were, telling us he was "mad" too.

Now we have an even better explanation. He didn't kill anyone. What will they think of next?

baruch goldstein was a nutcase.

Not sure what more needs to be said.

There, I saved everyone a lot of time.

baruch goldstein was a nutcase.

Not sure what more needs to be said.

There, I saved everyone a lot of time.

As for the idiotic zionism/nazism thing, there's no basis for it. No honest, educated person should even waste time debating such nonsense. Israel is fighting against people who are not israeli citizens and live outside of israel and refuse to even recognize israel's official existence, and refuse to stop murdering israeli citizens. Nazis wanted to exterminate an entire religion of people and take over the entire continent. It's an amazing waste of time to even say this, as anyone who isn't totally off their rocker already knows it.

THis is why nothing progresses. People claiming to want to "help make things better" seem to be the people who just want to make everyone hate one side, while making totally absurd, practically impossible suggestions for a solution.

One is an ethnic based, expansionist, militaristic nationalism. The other is, well, pretty much the same thing. The ethnic group is different, but that's about it.

No wonder they got along so well, back in the day:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/04/120352_comment.php#120573

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/05/127448_comment.php#127704

You're fooling no one but cretins.

"As for the idiotic zionism/nazism thing, there's no basis for it. No honest, educated person should even waste time debating such nonsense."

Numerous morally conscious, prominent Jews have made the comparison - even some Holocaust survivors.

It would be my greatest sadness to see Jews do to [Palestinian] Arabs much of what Nazis did to Jews. -- Albert Einstein (Was he an idiot, not honest, not educated, or off his rocker?)

"Israel is fighting against people who are not israeli citizens and live outside of israel..."

Oh, you mean after they were driven out? Or will you dare let me demolish you when you try to deny it? Otherwise, that makes it okay, huh?

"refuse to even recognize israel's official existence."

Any moral person would refuse to recognize Israel's existence as, racistly, "a Jewish state", just as they would refuse to recognize Germany's existence as "an Aryan state", or South Africa's existence as "an Apartheid state."

"the people who just want to make everyone hate one side"

You mean, the side that brutally oppresses? The side that came from Europe toting their scriptures that said "God" gave them Palestine. And with a basic doctrine of racial superiority similar to that of the Nazis? You mean the side that committed the atrocities, assassinated the prominent people, and started the wars/invasions outlined in the chronology in?:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/08/1638742_comment.php#1642325

ISRAELI HISTORY 101: ISRAELI MILITARY AGGRESSION:
by UH NO Wednesday September 03, 2003 at 03:40 PM


and

Addendum:
by UH NO Wednesday September 03, 2003 at 04:07 PM

and

More "Poor little Israel" !
by gehrig: more history of Israeli aggression! Monday September 08, 2003 at 09:27 PM .

"making totally absurd, practically impossible suggestions for a solution."

You mean, like a secular democratic state with equal national, civil, legal, and human rights for ALL people regardless of ethnicity, religion or sex? That "ABSURD...solution"? Like the country YOU live in?

[Oh no, now he's going to start talking about U.S.-supported Arab dictators in order to change the subject. Watch!

Since "the Jews" already have a state now, maybe we should just declare the U.S. to officially, politically, and legally be "a Christian, Muslim and Buddhist state" with superior rights and special privileges for all but Jews. Then we can take away Jewish property (land) in the U.S., since they won't have a right to own any here anymore, among other rights that will be taken away. How would you like *that* "abnormal Jewish Zionist"?]

"Nazis wanted to exterminate an entire religion of people and take over the entire continent."

Zionists exterminated or drove out entire villages of people based on religion and took over the entire country (claiming it was "a land without a people" - a propaganda line that would have made Geobbels blush - or awe!).

You mean [get ready folks, his head might EXPLODE over this fact], like the Jewish Zionist terrorist gang - THE STERN GANG - who's leader later became a prime minister of Israel (Itzhak Shamir) WHO EVEN OFFERED TO GO TO WAR ON THE SIDE OF THE NAZIS IN 1940!!!

Can't imagine WHY anyone would make comparisons of Zionism to Nazism.

Angie, re: King-Crane Commision Report content:
======================
...according to my Concerned Zionist pal in other threads here, none of them can read that well. Perhaps if you put it on audio??
======================

I like audio extracts -
eg: http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/09/1643303.php
[app 240k]

- but I don't have an audio version of the King-Crane Commission report, Angie.

sorry :(


For the readers in our midst, here's the full text:
http://www.ku.edu/~kansite/ww_one/docs/kncr.htm
(282k)

Hi,

Of course, you don't have an audio of the King-Crane Commission report. I was merely suggesting a reason why no one jumped up to debate same with you - their poor reading and comprehension skills.

I've just skimmed down through it. I will say one thing for it - it's thorough. I'm glad to note it is not strictly devoted to the Palestine question, but covers extensively other areas in the region.

Good luck with finding a debate partner!

Okay, I' sorry. This is the evil "28th day", if you know what I mean, and I'm feeling a little cranky. Sorry I blew up at people who are only trying to help.

Well, look at this! The vacant head is out here again unable to do anything but forge other people's names. It's only what one expects.

That admittedly SEXIST, MISOGYNIST IMPERSONATION of you was really me, Angie. I hate women. Especially really smart women like you. I hate really smart women like you because smart girls never paid any attention to me ever since I was a kid. I especially hated the smart girls that could stand up to arrogant, but ignorant, dweebs like me! But, one problem, those were the girls I was always attracted to. I know you find that previous sentence disgusting, but I had to say it. Oh Angie, please forgive me? I can't help myself. That's why I decided to become a loudmouth boor. That's the only way I could get attention from any girl. THAT'S REALLY WHAT MOTIVATES ALL OF US LOUDMOUTH ZIONISTS HERE ON INDYMEDIA! WE COULDN'T GET GIRLS!

is some naughty anti-Zionist impersonating "history buff is a retard". It doesn't take a rocket scientist to establish that. "history buff is a retard" has never addressed anyone or anything other than HB (nessie) and his "intellectual" output.

If "history buff is a retard" gets you to like him, then I want my chance too. "History buff is a retard" *IS* a RETARD himself! I'm the one you want. I'm a bigger dweeb than retard and I even had a harder time getting smart girls like you to like me! Yes, I became a Zionist because it was the only way I could get smart girls/women like you to even pay any attention to me. Certainly the only way I could EVER get any girl/women like you to ever talk to me! This ZIONIST CRAP was the only way I had. So ignore that "history buff is a retard" RETARD. You don't think I really believe the Zionist shit that I was dishing out, do you? One would REALLY have to be some psycho nutcase to believe that crap!! I'm the one you want! *PLEASE*!!!

It appears some anti-Zionist is intent on impersonating every poster who doesn't belong to his extreme anti-Zionist camp.
Seems to me the impersonater may be "A concerned Zionist" - someone who impersonates Zionists him/herself - since s/he has suffered lately from a slew of posts using his/her style to convey rather pro-Israeli messages.
I'm familiar with the style and themes the poster "a normal Jewish person" employs, so it's obvious s/he didn't post the above.

Now now my Zionist friends: if Angie is going to like anyone, it's going to be me. Lately I have been trying NOT to be the asshole jerk I was in the past to her. Clearly my past behavior has been motivated by my desire to get the attention that NO ONE gave me when I was a kid. Ever since then I've been out to impress the bullies and the other assholes as a way to be one of them and get people to 'respect' me. Well, to at least get some attention. That's why I became a Zionist too. I wanted to be with the people who were getting attention, even if they were a bunch of Nazis. Yes, I didn't care if it was "Zieg Heil!!" or "Zieg Sharon!!", as long as I get to be with the people who are pushing other people around. But, I'm going to not be such a ZioNazi asshole anymore and see if that works with someone like Angie! Maybe she'll at least talk to me more. Few other people do.

GOSH ANGIE IS *SO* SMART!!!

who speaks like that other MORON *BUSH* and doesn't know that "IMPERSONIFICATION" is *NOT* a word! *IDIOT*!

I guess it's ZIOBONICS!!

Why don't you ZIONIST MORONS at least GO TO SCHOOL(!) to learn how to talk and write and "EDUMICATE" yourselves before you LUMPEN MORONS come to these boards and show everyone, as someone once said here, just how *STOOOPPPID* you all are!!

"IMPERSONIFICATION" is not a real word?

I beat another Zionist friend of mine in Scrabble last week with that word! (Heehee! He STILL doesn't realize!)

@%<

Hey guys, why are you after that anti-Zionist shikse Angie, when you can have me! At least I'm kosher!

Ooops, I guess that shikse is both RACIST and MISOGYNIST against Gentile females. (You know it comes from a word that means "dirty".) I hope that none of the anti-Zionists find out that some of us Jews also have RACIST, MISOGYNIST EPITHETS. I mean, besides what we call the Palestinians. We Zionists have been trying to convince others that ALL of us Jews are so morally pure that we can get away with ANYTHING!

You guys wanna hear something? The first time Zionists were anti-CFB (Count Folke Bernadotte) was when we ASSASSINATED him! He was the member of the Swedish royal family who we Zionists assassinated back in 1948 - the very same year that Israel declared itself a state - because he dared to say that if Jews who never had any familial connection to Palestine had "a right to return", then Palesitnian refugees who were born in Palestine ought to have a right to return to their homes too.

So *what*!: that Bernadotte, as a member of the Swedish royal family, and head of the Swedish Red Cross, later an official of the United Nations, used his position to save the lives of many Jews during WWII! Once he said that Palestinian refugees should have the right to return too, WE ZIONISTS BLEW HIM THE FUCK *AWAY*!!

We Zionists don't give a damn about anyone but ourselves. So *what*!!

And that's why I took the screen name "ANTI-CFB"!

SO WHAT!!?

So we Zionists are STUPID, we're IMMORAL, we're PIGS, and when we can't mentally compete with someone like Angie, we resort to IMPERSONIFICATION!!

I EVEN *ADMITTED* ABOVE THAT WE ZIONISTS *HAVE* BEEN IM-PER-SO-NI-FI-CA-TION-I-FYING (GEE, THAT'S A BIG WORD; I COULD HARDLY SAY IT) OTHERS!!

SO WHAT!!?

Anyway, I know that "a normal Jewish zionist" *knows* that he's too stupid to ever appeal to someone as really REALLY smart as Angie. I know *ALL* us zionists are: scottie, gehrig, retard, anti-CFB, anti-Angie, and "??" .

What is the correct term for a Zionist who pretends to be an anti-Zionist impersonating a Zionist, in order to make anti-Zionists look like impersonaters?

if you mean "anti impersonator" you've only got a double score. But your getting lots of points from the use of Z's
Note the use of capitals asterix etc etc. Now who writes just like that?

OH, YOU'VE *GOT* TO WAKE UP PRETTY ***EARLY*** IN THE MORNING TO ***FOOL*** OLE *****SCOTTIE*****!!!