Timeline: Destruction of the Mideast Roadmap

As we can see Israel took the first two actions....
How can we expect the Palestinians not to retaliate....
Are they suppose to sit back and watch????

For Details on the Number of People killed since the Intifada began, This includes innocent children on both sides:
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

A Palestinian State now so the Palestinian People can live in Peace and with freedom.....

For a Possible Solution where both sides can have their own State:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php

""""""Peace for the time being equals killing all "Palestinian" terrorists. Then we could get back to negotiations.""""""(Critical Thinker)

If we kill all the terrorist (Freedom Fighters) Israel can just go in and take all the land in the West Bank and Gaza and there will be no one to help or defend any of the Palestinian People......

We know this to be a possibility because while there was relative calm in the 1990s.......

The Population of the Settlements in the West Bank went from around 100,000 in the early 1990s to around 300,000 today, making it harder and harder for the Palestinian People to have their state with reasonable borders......If Israel was sincere about being a Peaceful Nation wanting Peace, the Population of these settlement would be going down, not to mention the fact, that you can check if you like, that the number of these Settlement increaced by over 40 in the same period of time.....

As we have seen in the Conference in Egypt and in Jordan many Arab Nation will recognize Israels Right to exist if Israel will allow the Palestinian People to have their Small Country free from Israeli Occupation and Oppression..
To end the resistance to the Occupation you have to end the Occupation that allows for the resistance….

What kind of people would just sit by and do nothing while their land was confiscated and their homes are demolished?????? Even you CT would sit by and let that happen to you....without some form of protest....

Now you did not answer me....Would you let your land and homes be taken from you???
I do not know where you are....
But if you were in Texas and People from Mexico came into Texas and started confiscating land in Texas and then they even went further and started demolishing Peoples homes and leaving them Homeless, are you saying they should do nothing and just sit there and watch....The Palestinians are people just like any other people, they do not like their land confiscated and homes demolished....I could go on and on, curfews, etc,etc, but I think you get the picture can you really expect them to do absolutely nothing????

you don't answer the question, "critical thinker", you only obfuscate as well. Would you let it happen?
Would you maintain a ceasefire with your citizen's christian militia after the occupying chinese army started "targeted killings" of your spokesmen? Would you tie yourself to bulldozers as they destroyed the home of your family doctor, your lawyer? You probably won't answer this, but i wonder what you would do. Probably run away.

Palestinians intentionally blow up entire buses of innocent people and celebrate it.

This is not civilized.

Uh, why are you demanding the "right" of muslims to get to return to their alleged homes in israel, but you aren't demanding the "right" of jews in israel to get to return (or be compensated for) their alleged homes in arab countries?

Why are you demanding that one set of refugees be compensated, but not the other?

There were hundreds of thousands of refugees on both sides. When arabs left israel, the government took land that had no owners and sold the homes over time to new jewish immigrants. Are you proposing that the jewish immigrants be kicked out of homes that they bought?

There were hundreds of thousands of jews who had to flee arab countries and lost their homes and weren't compensated, either. Just beacuse they moved on with their lives and built a new existence for themselves doesn't mean they should be penalized.

Doesn't it concern you that arab countries controlled palestinian areas from 1948 to 1967, and could have built a state on it and the palestinians could have gotten on with their lives, but all they did was kick all the jews out, prevent jews from visiting the #1 holy site on the planet, and keep attacking israel while NOT forming a palestinian state?

Furthermore, "zionism" is the support of a jewish nation-state's existence. Calling for justice for the palestinians is one thing. Being "anti-zionist" is much more than that, being "anti-zionist" means being against the existnece of a jewish nation-state. Hamas and islamic jihad are the anti-zionists in that region. You appear to not just be on the side of justice and fairness for everyone, but on the side of the people who are "anti-zionist," meaning, against israel's existence.

You can't undo history. If you try to, you need to fix things for both sides, not just one. ARab countries should have accepted palestinians as immigrants, and/or should have set up a palestinian state when they had full control to do so. Instead, they just kept attacking israel. And you want the jews of israel to suffer because of it.

You’re an apologist for the IDF, the single closest equivalent to the Wehrmacht in existence today.


>Being "anti-zionist" is much more than that, being "anti-zionist" means being against the existence of a jewish nation-state.

Being "anti-Nazi" means being against the existence of an Aryan nation-state.


>You can't undo history.

That’s what the Nazis thought. A "thousand years" they said their state would last. Israel, too, will one day lie on the trash heap of history, right along side their mentors, the Nazis. One day, all nation states will join them, and nationalism itself will be looked back on with the scorn and ridicule we now hold for feudalism.

nessie-nym: "Being "anti-Nazi" means being against the existence of an Aryan nation-state."

I once had a computer science prof who taught a not-particularly useful class on I/O, but one of his asides sticks with me almost twenty years later: "Of course, reasoning by analogy is not reasoning." You've given another splendid example of that. Bad analogy => bad conclusion.

@%<

""Being "anti-Nazi" means being against the existence of an Aryan nation-state." "

So your saying hes against the BJP in India? There really ia a large group (the RSS) promoting aryan supremecy that already has power over the government of India.

While people focus on Israel and the Palestinians, aryan supremecists have been massacring thousands in places like Gujarat.

Its about time that groups like the ADL etc.. stop focusing on a land issue concerning only several million in the Middle East and start focusing on neoNazis who have taken power over nearly a billion people in South Asia!!

http://indianterrorism.bravepages.com/fascism%20as%20hindutva.htm

It's Subhas Chandra Bose's revenge



>Its about time that groups like the ADL etc.. stop focusing on a land issue concerning only several million in the Middle East and start focusing on neoNazis who have taken power over nearly a billion people in South Asia!!

Now you're talking.

It's a very fine line between any militaristic, ethnic nationalist group and any other. They all preach the same things. They even get along sometimes. Witness the collaboration between the Zionists and the Nazis:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/04/120352_comment.php#120573

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/05/127448_comment.php#127704

http://members.tripod.com/~Bregava/qana.html

These are pictures of civilians masacred by the IDF in Lebanon. The IDF's attacks in The West Bank and Gaza are not quite on the same scale but over the years the result has probably b een even worse. Aside from murdering civilians the IDF also has the nasty habit of bulldozing homes of relatives of Palestinian bombers; while the bombers were guilty and the groups behind the bombers were guilty collective punishment due to blood relations on this scale is beyond what most dictators are capable of ....

Hahaha, these anti-israel idiots have their cute little set of past events, and when they can't speak realistically about something they have to continously drag out the ALLEGED past.

It's as if someone said "christians are generally good people" and the response was to dig up some photo 150 years ago of a massacre that "christians" allegedly committed, and then saying "THIS is GOOD?"

The IDF, at this point, SHOULD probably just wipe out 100% of hamas, which is tens of thousands of people. It's a miracle that they haven't. IT's a testiment to their restraint.

It's funny how if israel kills 2 people, the entire world yells about it. But other countries can kill 5, or 300, and it's not mentioned.

Oh gee, some guy posted a picture of something that may have occured decades ago, I guess that means we should all throw away facts, reason and an accurate, historical sense of balance and agree with him! (Sarcasm.)

in retaliation for killing a terrorist leader as completely justifiable - nay, even laudable...

Rather like trying to get good budgeting advice from a guy who's gone Chapt. 13 three times in eight years. Maybe you can learn what NOT to do by watching him...

As can be seen from the above comments, many in Israel see nonwhite as subhumans who deserve to be killed. If the Nazi comparison isnt proven by fresca's comment ...

Jews in Germany... Palestinians in Israeli mass jails...

The scale is different but the treatment isnt that different

When the Israelies start tattooing the Palestinians, when the Israelies start deliberately targeting (and hitting) large quantities of civilians - and especially children - instead of taking out Hamas and other terror group leaders with as few outside casualties as possible...

Then your snarky and snide posts may have a point.

Until then, you look to me like folks who can look at what Israel did to the Hamas leader and what the bomber did to the busful of kids - and see the bomber targeting as many children as possible as the hero of the entire tragic piece.

Who cares about the kids - they're just jews anyway, right?

That bomber had every right to blow them up, right?

An evil act - even when done for 'good' - is still evil. Evil is deliberately getting on a bus full of kids and blowing yourself up, hoping to take as many as possible with you.

Or encouraging people who would do so.

The more I watch that whole mess, the less sympathy I've got for the Palestinians. Take out a Hamas leader, kill a busload of kids - which will inspire another strike - and then what? They gonna try for TWO busses of preschoolers next time? What sort of fucked-up moral calculus is that?

And it's not even new shit. Arafat's been pushing the Palestinians to be violent as hell for decades. They got pushed out of Jordan, they turned Lebanon into a damn disaster area. He knows that if the Palestinians ever GET a homeland, he'll be expendable and lose power. So why should he deal for 'peace'? He'll lipsynch the words, but he's worse than Milli-Vanilli when it comes to really singing the tune and meaning it. Peace, for him, would be worse than death.

You can't picture the Palestinians as evil? Okay, try to picture this.....

A white man, believing KKK crap, builds a backpack bomb and drops it off in the middle of a crowd of kids, some of whom are black, some white, some hispanic, some asian. He's got a grievance against blacks. He thinks he's perfectly justified in killing as many as possible.

The bomb goes off. Killing children of all colors, hurting scores more.

Is that act evil? Or good?

Is the MAN evil? Or good?

I know what I think.

hmm, you make it sound like for every one Palestinian killed a busload of Israelis are killed, but then who is it thatr the number of Palestinian dead far exceed the number of Israeli dead?

How many Palestinian chidlren were killed by teh IDF in the last week? You probably dont even know since it doesnt matter to you. Only the lives of Israelis matter.

That doesnt make a bus bombing right but when the number of Palestinian dead is greater than teh number of Israelis killed it is strange there is so much focus on the Israelis killed....

And was the Hamas leader killed responsible for the bus bomb? Was he in a faction opposed to the bus bomb? From what I can see in the news he didnt support the bus bombing so to call his murder an act of revenge is wrongheaded. Sharon's targeting of a leader of Hamas' nonmilitant faction was really a targetting of Abbas and the Peace Process.

"In the last month Palestinians have made many concessions and it looked like a long term truce could have been at hand... but an attack by Israel on a member of Islamic Jihad started a new round of blood letting."

Hmmm. Israel raided a bomb lab. Nice concession, I'm sure it was shut down already, and those guys firing back were the janitors.

In retaliation, Palestinians bombed civilians.

Israel killed a Jihad leader.

In return, a bomber kills as many children as possible.

So tell me - who should stop with the crap first? Who should accept the casualties and go "Okay - we're going to cease fire anyway"? Hell, news reports were blathering how Hamas was using the hudna to rearm for the NEXT round of fighting! They were really just being peaceful farmers, right?

Cease fire? Who derailed it? The Israelies who raided the bomb lab, or the Palestinians who built the lab in the first place?

--"Oh gee, some guy posted a picture of something that may have occured decades ago..."

The Qana massacre, in which Israelis bombed a UN compound full of Lebanese civilians occurred in 1996.

"How many Palestinian chidlren were killed by teh IDF in the last week? You probably dont even know since it doesnt matter to you. "

Wrong. Children SHOULD NEVER BE THE TARGETS! DELIBERATE TARGETING OF CHILDREN IS WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!

The way the media is - IF THERE WERE ANY CHILDREN KILLED BY THE IDF IT'D BE SPLATTERED ON THE FRONT PAGE!

And YOU know it just as well as I do!

So here's how I see it - not that you really care.

1. Palestinians target children deliberately as a policy of their 'resistance' - and bomb them and civilians when they can, indiscriminately. The more dead the better for them.

2. The IDF doesn't target children deliberately as a policy - and attempts to take out their targets with a minimum of casualties.

You may disagree - but if the positions were reversed, with the Palestinians having the men and tanks and aircraft, bullets and guns and bombs - and the Israelies were being 'displaced' - how long do you figure it would be before the Palestinians started carpet-bombing the Israeli refugee camps?

What hate!

What utter drivel/

What one-sided bias.

Reading this sure explains why "peace" is a rarity in the Middle East.

About 20 Palestinians (five of whom were children, see: http://www.whowillsavethechildren.com/children_remembered.html) were killed by Israelis during the so-called "period of calm" preceding this bombing. Two more Palestinian children were killed yesterday.

Palestinian deaths are almost always ignored by the media. So no one knows how many Palestinians were really killed without checking obscure sources (like human rights reports).

Since the beginning of the Intifada, 101 Israeli children and 460 Palestinian children have been killed. From listening to the media, you'd think it's the other way around.

Some of the deaths of the children were caused by bombs planted within toys and left in the streets of the refugee camps by Israeli soldiers. James B. Longley's "Gaza Strip" documentary showed an incident which is similar in which two Israeli tanks passing through dropped boxing gloves in the street and a boy who ran to pick it up got blown to bits.

Basically, Israelis leave booby trapped toys out for Palestinian children. Even though this has been documented on film, no one in the media dares mention it. Were Palestinians to do the same, the media would repeat it over and over in order to demonize them. But in this case (Israelis leaving booby-trapped toys out for Palestinian children), we have total silence...Were these incidents to be mentioned at all, they would be met with bitter denunciations and contemptous denials.

As P.T. Barnum said, there's a sucker born every minute.

So - got a valid link to these 'toys'? Something that isn't from the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, where they DID do crap like this?

Oh, wait. You've got an explanation for why you can't .....

Convenient, isn't it? You've got something that can't be proven to even exist - care to add the blood matzoh libel in just for some spice?

Real easy to sympathize with the thugs instead of the cops - until they start beating YOUR door down.

No, "the israelis" do not leave booby-trapped toys. Just become an ACCUSATION that AN israeli did doesn't mean that "THE ISRAELIS" do it.

The anti-israel lunatics are on an insane mission.

Well

we hear lots about the palistininan dead. All the time almost every reported event includes palistinians dying.
for example every suicide bombing thats at least one more palistinian for the statistics (particularly when they fail to kill anyone else which is pretty common since they are not well trained). every attack on a israeli soldier that is probably another handful of dead palistinians (because the IDF is just too good for their rag tag fighters).
Between that and people doing stupid things like waving sticks and throwing stones at tanks you have quite a few deaths.

Real easy to sympathize with the thugs instead of the cops - until they start beating YOUR door down.

Personally, I'm tired of seeing people give the Palestinians a pass on the crap they pull. "Oh, the Israelis did it first!"

Of ALL the countries in that area, can you tell me WHICH ONES (since 1970, when Jordan killed thousands of Palestinians EVICTING them) have even tried to negotiate a homeland with the Palestinians?

Israel is fighting insane organizations who think that jihad, intifada and martyering themselves is smarter than agreeing to land-for-peace offers and no longer trying to murder the jews.

Israelis, in general, are normal, like your average educated american.

Palestinians, in general, are also normal in that they want a nice existence, but they're uneducated in that they're brainwashed from arafat spending 35 years telling them that the only way to prosperity is to get rid of israel, and now brainwashed from insane islamic extremist hamas and islamic jihad lunatics telling them that murdering jews is an honor that god rewards.

Israel = generally the good guys.

Palestinians = led by sick lunatic scumbags who drag them all down

Israeli jerk: "So - got a valid link to these 'toys'? Something that isn't from the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, where they DID do crap like this? Oh, wait. You've got an explanation for why you can't .....Convenient, isn't it? You've got something that can't be proven to even exist - care to add the blood matzoh libel in just for some spice?"

This was documented in James B. Longley's "Gaza Strip."

You can purchase a copy here:
http://www.arabfilm.com/item/202/

If you still don't believe me, I will copy that video excerpt into MPG format and post it hear.

Falling all over each other in your attempts to villify myself and at the same time convince the rest of the world that Israel is a good little democracy, sitting here minding its own business, its army never shooting a Palestinian youngster or a journalist or a peace activist in its existence.

Oh, you wish, idiots! How you wish! Too bad we know better. Too bad for your little charade that EVERYONE WITH A BRAIN KNOWS BETTER.

Please do that.

I will post that video excerpt showing the boy who was killed by booby trapped boxing gloves left by Israeli tanks.

I'll have it up here within an hour.

It is graphic, but if you're an activist, it's nothing you're not used to.

If Israel really wanted a just and fair Peace...
They would let the 3,500,000 or so Palestinians have their small State on the West Bank and Gaza, which is only 22% of what is today Israel, West Bank and Gaza..

To end the resistance to the Occupation you have to end the Occupation that allows for the resistance….

2,427 Palestinians* and 820 Israelis** have been killed since September 29, 2000. This includes 93 Israeil Children and 475 Palestinian Children and why, Just because Israel wants to confiscate Palestinian land and demolish Palestinian homes and they think they should be able to do it with the Palestinian People just sitting there and watching instead of fighting for their freedom....
The U.S. believes in freedom for all, Why are they forgetting freedom for the Palestinian People???
For Details on death since the Intafada Began:
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

This video clip is from James B. Longley's "Gaza Strip."

It shows the Palestinian victim of an Israeli booby trapped toy.

There is an excerpt of this with the filmographer. I'll upload that as well.

"Israel is a good little democracy, sitting here minding its own business, its army never shooting a Palestinian youngster or a journalist or a peace activist in its existence.
Oh, you wish, idiots! How you wish! Too bad we know better. Too bad for your little charade that EVERYONE WITH A BRAIN KNOWS BETTER."

No one that I know of is claiming the above statement therefore it is what is called a "straw man" Either that or you are arguing with someone who doesnt even come to this board.
What we would say is that "sometimes palistinians get shot most of these are by accident. sometimes israelis get bombed mostly on purpose."
Or somthing similar to that. if you disagree with that then argue with that as opposed to the straw man.

ANGEL
The israelis prime objective is not "being fair" it is "not getting blown up" or "not getting driven into the sea". their secondary objective is "being fair" they understandably have major trust issues with the PLO hamas etc and that explains most of the problems.

ANGEL's rhetoric is amusing. First palestinians need to get it in their heads that murdering jews won't help them. Once they transform from brainwashed religious-crazed lunatics who think god rewards them if they kill jews into normal people, then everyone will see about giving them a state FOR THE FIRST TIME.

As for the guy above, no one knows who is in that video, where it takes place, or who is responsible for it, so it's more or less useless.

Furthermore, even if that video was true, it's not a normal event. It's an exception to the rule, and therefore stupid to highlight.

In the above video, filmographer James B. Longley discusses what he heard from eyewitnesses about this atrocity (which is not considered an atrocity because it was never shown or mentioned in the mainstream media and therefore "never happened").

Among the Palestinian children killed this month, two were killed by "Israeli explosive device[s]" left behind by Israeli soldiers in or near Palestinian towns according to Who Will Save the Children.

It doesn't specifically say they were booby trapped toys, but given the fact that this is documented in this video, it's a safe bet that was the case.

From:
http://www.whowillsavethechildren.com/children_remembered.html

"2 August 2003
Ahmad Hindi, 13,
of Deir el Balah,
killed by an Israeli explosive device he found near the refugee camp and carried home.

5 August 2003
Munir Abu Hayn, 14,
of Gaza,
killed by an explosive device left by Israeli forces which exploded in his hands after he took it home."

Cease Fire...
Go back to the top and read the article:
All provocation should have stopped so negotiations could take place and then August 6 and 8 happened (see article at the top) Israel really does want a fair and just peace.

To end the resistance to the Occupation you have to end the Occupation that allows for the resistance….

kill the chicken or break the egg

So the Israeli troops are there on vacation, then, eh?

>troops are there controlling land that they won in a defensive war in 1967,

"won in . . . war" = stole


>land that was not actually an established country or state.

That's totally irrelevant. A solid case can be made that before the West bank was occupied by Israel, it was occupied bu Hashemite Jordanian imperialists, against who the Palestinians also fought a war of resistance.


>When the assholes who live on it aren't intent on killing jews,

When Israelis withdraw, and start treating their neighbors like fellow human beings, people wont want to kill them any more.


>You fucking anti-israel people are really revealing yourselves to be sick, sick bastards.

You pro-Israeli people are really revealing yourselves as devotees of ethnically based, militaristic, expansionist nationalism that differs from that of your Nazi mentors in only one minor detail. The Nazis weren't Jewish. Outside of that, you're two peas in a pod.

Israelis negotiate for more land for them, Palestinian 'incidents' increase.

Look at Palestinian history - they were told by their neighbors to evacuate in '67, and when the war was over (and Israel destroyed) they'd have everything.

So they evacuated - and Israel didn't lose - and gained ground. That's called the spoils of war - when an aggressor loses, the victor takes territory. With any luck, it'd serve as a reminder to not try that sort of stuff again - but usually it just causes resentment that festers.

But what's the victor supposed to do? Give it back and tell them not to try it again? (Yeah, like THAT'S gonna work...)

And their 'friends' got tired of the Palestinian presence - to the point where Jordan killed tens of thousands when the PA tried to take over that country and they were evicted by the Jordanian army. To this day, there's not a country in the area that'll even TALK about a Palestinian homeland, though most of them (like Egypt) have more crappy land than they can use. Jordan won't do it - they know what the Palestinian leadersip would do if given half a chance again.

Israel's negotiations have been the closest thing to a homeland that the Palestinians have had in the last 30+ years - and the PA screwed up THAT deal when they withdrew from the negotiations. Not surprising, when you consider that if they DID get a homeland, Arafat and the PA would essentially become powerless.

Who but a racist would say something like that?

You certainly got that right!!!

and call someone asking a good question a racist...

Is that supposed to win support for the Palestinians? Call someone racist - that means you can completely ignore the question, right?

Okay, let's try again. Think you could actually answer the question this time?

"The IDF is protecting it's own land. Land which has rightfully been theirs since 1967.

After all, if Israel was to decide to give these territories away, who would they give them to Back to Egypt, Jordan and Syria. As what? As a reward for attacking them in the first place.

And another thing. How is it that the Egyptians living in Gaza in 1968 and the Jordanians living in the West Bank in 1968 are now, AS IF BY MAGIC, both "palestinians". At what point did their heritage change so dramatically."

(I won't even mention about the Jordainian 'Palestinians' who staged a coup and damn near stole the country in '69 - and who died in the tens of thousands when the King of Jordan decided - "No more!" - and sent his army to evict them.

""""And another thing. How is it that the Egyptians living in Gaza in 1968 and the Jordanians living in the West Bank in 1968 are now, AS IF BY MAGIC, both "palestinians". At what point did their heritage change so dramatically.""""(by fresca)

Before 1948 there was no Country of Israel..
How did people from Germany, Russia and othe European Nations becom Israeli?????

When Israel became a Nation in 1948, they did so with only 650,000 Jewish people living there.

Number taken from the Book:
Original Sins (page 201)
Reflection on the History of Zionism and Israel
By Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi
Olive Branch Press, New York, N.Y.

But 3,500,000 people can not have a State now in West Bank and Gaza that is only 22% of what is Today Israel, West Bank and Gaza.....

Everyone knows that the Holocaust was wrong....
But why should the Palestinian People be punished, They had nothing to do with that Holocaust.....

Are you saying that you should just get rid of 3,500,000 people, that would be as bad as the Holocaust, maybe even worst since everyone should know better in todays world.

Who is Killing whom???
To Find out:
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

Palestinians have repeatedly rejected land to choose war, and have lost additional land in the process. It isn't Israel's fault. Eventually, when Palestinians figure out that murdering Jews doesn't help them, perhaps they can have a little state of their own.

(Well, Palestinians already have a state, it's called JORDAN. Jordan is on 80% of what was "historic Palestine" the territory. I mean the remaining Palestinians, the ones led by losers like Arafat and Hamas.)

In the 1990s there was relative calm in the hopes of an Up coming Palestinian State with Reasonable borders, in return, what the Palestinian got was an increase in the Settler Population in the West Bank from around 100,000 in the early 1990s to around 300,000 thousand today,,,If Israel was trying to do the right thing and work toward this Palestinian State the Population of the settlers should have been going down not up....On top of this the number of settlement increased by about 40 or more...All this can be easily verified....
Land Confiscation and Home demolistions and loss of freedom is not a good reason to fight for ones freedom???

To end the resistance to the Occupation you have to end the Occupation that allows for the resistance….

For a way that both sides can have their States:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php

The following is a video clip from a Lebanese documentary on the Qana massacre of 1996 which shows footage of the victims before they were killed.

All the people that you see in the above clip were killed in the bombing of the UN compound which was supposed to protect them. They went there for shelter because Israel was randomly bombing their village.

Why did Israel bomb Qana?
Because a few Israeli soldiers inside Lebanon were killed by the Lebanese resistance. The Israeli soldiers had been planting mines near Lebanese villages one of which killed a teenage Lebanese girl a few weeks earlier.

So, as revenge for their soldiers killed (inside another people's country, Lebanon), Israel bombed Lebanese civilians. Shimon Peres called it an accident...

In all, 106 innocent civilians were massacred there.

The video in the post above shows the victims before they were killed. Often, when one just sees mangled bodies, one disassociates those images from actual human beings. Seeing the eyes and images of the people before they are killed (a rare occurrence) helps underscore why war is horrible and should never be undertaken lightly -- certainly not for territorial ambitions.

Robert Fisk describes the massacre and the events which led up to it in the following articles:
http://www.robert-fisk.com/articles18.htm
http://www.robert-fisk.com/articles14.htm

"The decision of the Palestinians to repeatedly reject...blah blah blah...blah blah blah"

Take a look at the two posts preceding the above post by "Steve" to see what this pro-ethnic cleansing activist is trying to hide.

Shimon Peres declared this was "an accident".

Like bloody hell. We know that the IDF had been using a drone, and thus knew exactly where their shells were landing.

We know the Norweigan soldier who was filming an amateur video of the shelling, had filmed the drone, and this film was given to correspondent , Robert Fisk, whose Independent covered the massacre extensively.

True to form, the US media didn't show the film, despite it having been distributed to all the major media outlets. CNN did give it a little time, and that was the extent of that.

So to call this an "accident", like every other murderous event carried out by Israel, is utter and blatant lying.

Steve is a pro-ethnic cleansing activist. He actively supports the Israeli settlers' "rights" (illegal under international law) to steal Palestinians' lands in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and lies for them saying they are doing it for "security."

Furthermore, Steve cares not a wit that there is institutionalized discrimination against the 22% of Israelis who are Christian and Muslim Arabs. Their rights are trampled upon every day. They are treated as inferiors. They routinely have their homes and land confiscated -- which is legal under Israeli law -- so that that property can be given to Jews and Jews only.

The last country to do things like that was called Apartheid South Africa. Israel is not a state of all its citizens but one which gives preferential treatment to Jews at the expense of its Christian and Muslim population.

If you support Israel's existence as an exclusionary Jewish state which gives superior rights to its Jewish citizens over its non-Jewish citizens than you are a racist. If you support the settlers' continuing theft of the remaining Palestinians' lands, then you are a racist and a pro-ethnic cleansing activist.

I just wonder if "Steve" considers himself a progressive -- that would be the clincher.

Zionists lie and lie and talk your head off.

Refuting every lie they spew (which is just about everything that drips off their keyboard) would be a full time job.

"Israel is not taking away homes legally owned by non-Jews in the state of Israel and keeping them for Jews"

So where did all the Palestinians who used to live in Israel go? People who deny the expulsion of the Palestinians are similar to people who deny the Holocaust; revisionism and denial dont make the attrocities any less real, they just reveals the depth to which peopel will sink to promote failed ideas.

The 22% of Israeli citizens who are Christian and Muslim Arabs now own less than 3% of the land in Israel.

This is due to direct confiscation (aka theft) of their homes and land by the Jewish Agency which holds it in trust for Jews and Jews only. And this is legal under Israeli law.

The following video shows Palestinians who have had their homes destroyed or confiscated.

The beginning shows a home demolition so the land could be deemed not used and confiscated for Jewish use.

8 minutes and 38 seconds into the video, a Palestinian man describes how his home was confiscated with all the property in it and now Jews live in their and own his property as though it were theirs (they even stole his horses which were in his family's stable).

? said the following: ""Israel is not taking away homes legally owned by non-Jews in the state of Israel and keeping them for Jews"

So where did all the Palestinians who used to live in Israel go? People who deny the expulsion of the Palestinians are similar to people who deny the Holocaust; revisionism and denial dont make the attrocities any less real, they just reveals the depth to which peopel will sink to promote failed ideas."

Hey "?" you should consider learning the difference between present tense and past tense.

In the past, during wars, there were lots of arab refugees (and lots of jewish refugees from other places).

Someone made a claim that currently, Israel is taking homes away from non-Jews in Israel.
That is a false, unsubstantiated claim.

Steve said nothing about supporting "ethnic cleansing" of any kind. You guys are weird, making stuff up like that.

--"Steve said nothing about supporting 'ethnic cleansing'..."

In one of his posts, Steve stated that Israel was right to settle the Occupied Territories in order to bring security to Israel. I'm paraphrasing, but that is what he said.

--"Someone made a claim that currently, Israel is taking homes away from non-Jews in Israel.
That is a false, unsubstantiated claim."

I thought that Zionists were just irrational. I didn't realize they were also deaf, dumb, and blind. I not only provided evidence of Israeli ethnic cleansing and theft of Palestinian homes and land IN MODERN TIMES, it also happened to be a video documentary. So I'm just dumbfounded that he would say the above.

To see Israelis ethnically cleansing Palestinians, take a look at the beginning of this documentary:
VIDEO STREAM:
http://www.freespeech.org/fsitv/ramfiles/jerusalem.ram

The 22% of Israeli citizens who are Christian and Muslim Arabs now own less than 3% of the land in Israel due to Zionist confiscations of their land.

8 minutes and 38 seconds into the video, a Palestinian man describes how his family's home was stolen along with all the property in it and is now "owned" by unapologetic Zionists (they even stole his horses which were in his stable).

The defense establishment's consensus

By Ze'ev Schiff

It is only natural that in such a complex and cruel
war like the one being waged against Palestinian
terror that differences of opinion sometimes arise
among the security branches in regard to war
tactics and the way various events should be
interpreted. For example, there is an argument
about the preventive anti-terror measures taken by
Mohammed Dahlan following the assassination of the
senior Hamas leader Ismail Abu Shanab in Gaza on
August 21.

The IDF contends that for the
first time, the steps taken by
the Palestinians go beyond
those included in the plan
Dahlan presented earlier for
Yasser Arafat's approval. This
time, Dahlan arrested several
arms dealers, sent forces into
the northern Gaza Strip to
prevent the firing of Qassam


rockets, stepped up patrols in Bethlehem and
plugged up the openings of tunnels in Rafah
used to smuggle weapons (though some of the
tunnels had not been used for quite a while.)
The effort was not directed at the real terror
infrastructure - such as seizing workshops used
to produce rockets or arresting suspects.

A different view, heard more often in the Shin
Bet, is that all of the measures taken by the
Palestinians in recent days were intended for
public relations purposes. According to this
view, these steps had only a marginal impact on
the security situation and some of them have
already been implemented in the past. There is
still no real war on the terror infrastructure.
Thus, terrorist organizations like Hamas and
Islamic Jihad, and especially the groups
affiliated with Fatah, do not feel threatened
by the Palestinian preventive security forces.

But there are some matters on which there is no
argument and on which the conclusions are
clear. There is an unequivocal decision not to
return to the same type of cease-fire as
before. This same mistake has been made several
times in the past and the Palestinians, led by
Arafat, have fooled Israel and various
mediators time and again. Therefore, the new
proposal by Palestinian Foreign Minister Nabil
Sha'ath for a comprehensive cease-fire will be
rejected out of hand. This time, they say,
there will be no discussion of a cease-fire if
it does not include from the outset direct
Palestinian action against the terror
infrastructure.

The various branches of the defense
establishment also agree that higher-ranking
targets should be selected for liquidation if
no cease-fire is achieved. (That is, those who
orchestrate terrorist activity should be hit
directly through various means.) Following the
murderous attacks conducted by Hamas and
Islamic Jihad, as well as Fatah gangs, during
the cease-fire, targets are now also being
selected that are intended to deter and pose a
threat to the terrorist organizations and their
leaders. This approach was rarely adopted in
the past and it will expand the list of targets
to include members of the top leadership who
encourage and approve acts of terror.

At the same time, there is a consensus that an
effort must be made to cause minimal hardship
for the civilian population while focusing on
those involved in terrorism. An example of this
was the blocking of the road running through
the Gaza Strip (the north-south Tancher Road).
A day after it was blocked, a decision was made
to adopt a different approach and open it
again, while conducting some searches along the
route. In places where serious steps are taken
against the terror infrastructure, restrictions
on the population will also be eased in other
areas.

While potential Fatah targets are all present in
the territories, there are leaders of Hamas and
Islamic Jihad living in neighboring Arab
countries who are involved in terrorism. As the
investigation of the bus bombing in Jerusalem
progresses, it is becoming more apparent that
the Hamas leadership abroad was involved. The
action was carried out by the Hamas branch in
Hebron, which is known for its secret
activities and slow and thorough planning. This
branch maintains contacts with leaders of the
organization abroad, including those in
Jordan.

It seems that that the Hamas leadership in the
Gaza Strip did not have advance knowledge about
the Jerusalem bus bombing. Hamas leaders in
Gaza, like members of Islamic Jihad, were sure
that it was an operation carried out by Islamic
Jihad. When the Hamas leaders in Gaza learned
that its Hebron branch was responsible, they
immediately adopted the action and praised it,
thus making themselves direct partners in the
attack.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=333210&contrassID=2&subContrassID=4&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

>Who but a racist would say something like that?

This refers to a comment that was removed. No, we will not allow you people to call each other "savages" on this site. Of you insist on doing stuff like that, go start your own sites.

I am for the 300,000 or so settlers being allowed to stay where they are if they chose to..
But I am for A Palestinian State with the Israeli Borders set back to pre 1967....

To end the resistance to the Occupation you have to end the Occupation that allows for the resistance….

est Bank and Gaza are only 22% of what is TODAY, Israel, West Bank and Gaza.
PLEASE LOOK AT THE MAP IN THE FOLLOWING WEB PAGE:
The Orange areas are Israeli settlements in the already small 22% that is West Bank and Gaza. What kind of carved up mess will the Palestinian State be unless all the settlements are removed (which will probably never happen) or just make the settlements part of the New Palestinian State (which can happen right now)??
CLICK HERE > http://mondediplo.com/maps/IMG/artoff3260.jpg

For there to be Peace and for there to be a reason for the Palestinian People to stop their fight for Freedom:
We need a Palestinian State with Reasonable Border NOW, If the Road Map that is backed by the U.S., U.N., E.U., and Russia is to work...
Send in a Joint, U.S., U.N. Peace keeping Force to the West Bank and Gaza for the sole purpose of trying to avoid conflicts between the Palestinian and the settlers..
Then have the Biased (biased because they will always be on the side of the settlers) Israeli Military retreat to the pre 1967 Israeli Borders, They can then concentrate their effort on guarding this Border..
(MAHMOUD ABBAS HAS SAID MORE THEN ONCE THAT HE WANTS U.S. OBSERVERS THERE, THAT IS THE ONLY WAY, THAT THE TRUTH OF WHAT IS REALLY OCCURRING WILL BE BELIEVED BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.)
Example of a possible solution:
SET THE BORDERS BACK TO 1967...
In return the Refugees have no Right of Return inside the 1967 Israeli Borders..
One complaint that Israel has is that the Right of Return will result in two Palestinian States, (The Right of return is almost impossible any way because the land and homes they lost are now built up with Jewish homes businesses etc…)
The Refugees can be helped to settle somewhere in the new Palestinian State..
The Settlements are now part of Palestine...
If the some 300,000 Israeli Settlers living in Palestine do not like living there, they can move to Israel...
If the 1,000,000 or so Palestinians who now live in Israel do not like living in Israel, they can move to Palestine...
If 1,000,000 or so Palestinians can live in Israel, then some 300,000 Israeli Settlers can live in Palestine if they choose to stay..
If you take Israel, West Bank and Gaza, West Bank and Gaza is only 22% of the total area in Question, This small amount is not too much to ask for millions of Palestinians who must have their freedom to have a peaceful life.
If this solution was implemented there is a good chance the so called terrorist (seen as freedom fighters by the oppressed Palestinian People) would stop their fight, if not they would be very foolish because then Israel would have a just cause to fight back and the U.S. would have a just cause to help Israel fight back.
Otherwise we will continue to have:
Israel: We have to confiscate Palestinian land and demolish Palestinian homes because there are suicide bombers???
Palestine: We have to defend ourselves because Israel is slowly confiscating all our land and demolishing our homes. We have no military to defend ourselves and our land. If we do nothing, we will soon have nothing at all???
The era of colonization

Does anyone care about who is being killed in this conflict???
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

I am for the 300,000 or so settlers being allowed to stay where they are if they chose to..
But I am for A Palestinian State with the Israeli Borders set back to pre 1967....even though the presence of the settlers would wreck the viability of the Palestinian state prior to its creation.

To end the resistance to the Occupation it's not even enough to end the Occupation that ostensibly allows for the resistance….

West Bank and Gaza are only 22% of what is TODAY, Israel, West Bank and Gaza.
PLEASE LOOK AT THE MAP IN THE FOLLOWING WEB PAGE:
The Orange areas are Israeli settlements in the already small 22% that is West Bank and Gaza. What kind of carved up mess will the Palestinian State be unless all the settlements are removed (which will probably never happen) or just make the settlements part of the New Palestinian State (which CAN'T happen right now)??
CLICK HERE > http://mondediplo.com/maps/IMG/artoff3260.jpg So if I am for letting the settlements stay, my conclusion is there should be no Palestinian state!!!

For there to be Peace and for there to be a reason for the Palestinian People to stop their fight for Freedom:
We should NOT have a Palestinian State with Unreasonable Borders NOW, If the Road Map that is backed by the U.S., U.N., E.U., and Russia is to work...
Send in a Joint, U.S., U.N. Peace keeping Force to the West Bank and Gaza for the sole purpose of trying to avoid conflicts between the Palestinian and the settlers...even though this is doomed to failure from the outset...
Then have the Biased (biased because they will always be on the side of the settlers) Israeli Military retreat to the pre 1967 Israeli Borders, They can then concentrate their effort on guarding this Border..
(MAHMOUD ABBAS HAS SAID MORE THEN ONCE THAT HE WANTS U.S. OBSERVERS THERE, THAT IS THE ONLY WAY, THAT THE TRUTH OF WHAT IS REALLY OCCURRING WILL BE BELIEVED BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT...BUT I KNOW I'M WRONG...)
Example of an impossible solution:
SET THE BORDERS BACK TO 1967...
In return the Refugees have no Right of Return inside the 1967 Israeli Borders..
One complaint that Israel has is that the Right of Return will result in two Palestinian States, (The Right of return is almost impossible any way because the land and homes they lost are now built up with Jewish homes businesses etc…)
The Refugees can be helped to settle somewhere in the new Palestinian State..
The Settlements are now part of Palestine...
If the some 300,000 Israeli Settlers living in Palestine do not like living there, they can move to Israel...
If the 1,000,000 or so Palestinians who now live in Israel do not like living in Israel, they can move to Palestine...
If 1,000,000 or so Palestinians can live in Israel, then some 300,000 Israeli Settlers can live in Palestine if they choose to stay...even though that makes it an impossible mission to carve up a Palestinian state with Reasonable Borders...
If you take Israel, West Bank and Gaza, West Bank and Gaza is only 22% of the total area in Question, This small amount is not too much to ask for millions of Palestinians who must have their freedom to have a peaceful life.
Even If this non-solution were implemented there is a NO chance the so called freedom fighters (in reality, terrorists) would stop their fight, because they are very foolish, as they want a Palestinian state on more than the West Bank and Gaza...because then Israel would have a just cause to fight back and the U.S. would have a just cause to help Israel fight back.
Still, having implemented the so-called solution, we will continue to have: Israel: We have to confiscate Palestinian land and demolish Palestinian homes because there are suicide bombers???
Palestine: We have to defend ourselves because Israel is slowly confiscating all our land and demolishing our homes. We have no military to defend ourselves and our land. If we do nothing, we will soon have nothing at all???

Does anyone care about who is being murdered in this conflict??? The Palestinians murder Jews while Jews hardly murder Palestinians...
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html (Timeline: Destruction of the Mideast Roadmap)

Curious how WTF above and his like minded friends are forever prattling on about not having an objection to a Palestinian state as long as it's "not now".

And how it's okay as long as it's not being governed by "Hamas" et al but some "decent" person.

Let me ask on behalf of all the decent people suffering and dying in the Occupied Territories for decades why it is that they must have "decent" (as defined by whom?) people leading them, but Israel can continue to have its war criminals (Sharon) and terrorist PMs like Shamir and Begin?

Curious doesn't begin to cover it.
Hypocrisy does.

Boy is your question moronic.

Begin resigned 20 years ago and has been gone 11 years; Shamir stopped running for leadership once he was defeated in 1992 and quit politics altogether after Netanyahu became PM in 1996.
Moreover, Shamir and Begin had been elected PMs looooong after their underground carries ended.
This is not the case with Arafat and nearly everyone else in the PA.
Even those "not compromised by terror" within any realm of influence among the Palestinians aren't unconditionally accepting Israel's right to exist within secure borders and renouncing the "right of return" (which if enabled would make Israel another Palestinian state).

Sharon...a war criminal? From God's mouth to your ear?
You may believe he was directly responsible for Sabra & Shatilla from here to eternity, but the facts won't change madam.
Besides, contrast Israel's governing system with that of the Palestinians; even if war criminals were leading Israel now or in the future, there would be checks and balances on his executive powers, not least of them public opinion and the press.

It appears you get an immense delight from analyzing history with such shallowness.

One of the most curious things I've noticed since dropping by this Board back in April is the astonishing denial of people supporting the terrorist state of Israel, and its long line of terrorist prime ministers, and its current (and perhaps always) murderous army.

I don't much care if Shamir and Begin have been dead a thousand years or are still living. Their terrorist activity is documented, well documented, and as Jewish author, Israel Shamir, once wrote with respect to the Deir Yassin massacre carried out by Israel that if you want to become Prime Minister of Israel "it helps to have a massacre in your name".

However, to read the likes of the above post directed to myself, one would be hard pressed to believe that there is a single solitary flaw in the Israeli government.and/or army.

We have all read the usual denials. Oh, Israel is not stealing land belonging to the Palestinians because it is not their land, it's Israel's; Israel is not shooting Palestinian children, they are put in the line of fire by their parents; Israel is not re-routing water from palestinian towns and villages, it is the Palestinians who are stealing Israel's water. The only "terrorists" in this mix are Palestinians (sometimes one is led to believe that the entire population of the Occupied Territories are "terrorists")

Never do we see you and your supporters of Israel admitting that the IDF is a bloody terrorist army, and that your beloved Israel is practicing state terror on a scale unheard of in civilized times.

Making excuses for the likes of Ariel Sharon really leaves the intellect, if any, of the above poster in grave danger of being dismissed with disbelief and amusement.

Actually, you can go back beyond Sabra and Shatilla to the 1954 activities of Sharon, and you can follow his career on through to the present day. It is not myself and others who believe in freedom and justice for the Palestinian peoples who are vilifying Sharon. He's done a marvellous job of it himself.

We don't care at all about all your attempts to pull the discussion back to the past, nor your Israel Shamir (Israel is practicing torture on a mideival scale and other fairy tales? Yeah right) aided spin on it. Btw, I saw CT discrediting some of Shamir's other lies.

WTF was focusing on here and now, while you are trying to cut the Palestinians every possible slack by harkening back to the pre-Israeli independence workings of Begin and Shamir, or Sharon's military carrier (which ended in 1973). This won't bring your point of view any salvation.

You and your ilk are the ones trying to make excuses for the Palestinians, partly by tarnishing Israel, its military and leadership, charging them with absurd accusations.

"Never do we see you and your supporters of Israel admitting that the IDF is a bloody terrorist army, and that your beloved Israel is practicing state terror on a scale unheard of in civilized times. "

- Just because you'd have all of us believe this is so, doesn't make it true. We won't admit to false accusations just to please you and your ilk.

You expect the world at large to believe the outrageous crap you and your ilk throw at us?

NOT!!!

That your fellow Israel and IDF supporter could discredit Israel Shamir's "lies" is an astonishing piece of fiction if ever there was one. He also tried to convince us that Uri Avnery was "lying" and that he showed him up too. In his dreams. In your dreams too, poor soul.

Certainly I will make one definite point before wandering on to my work and perchance later today finding a more interesting topic on the Board; for instance, what may be happening at the Hutton Inquiry.

Had Uri Avnery become Prime Minister of Israel at any time over the past forty-five years, there would be a Palestinian state a LONG time ago. There would have been peace a LONG time ago. There would be PEACE today.

Sadly, dear Uri is not a terrorist with a massacre named after him.

He's merely a decent human being who believes in a just and dignified peace. "Just" and "dignified" being the operative words here.

Look them up. Send them along to Sharon and the IDF. Oh, and send along someone to explain what these words mean.

We don't terribly care what you and your sorry ilk (what you brand "the world at large") believe.
You people care very little about truth, facts and logic. That also explains your deep denial regarding CT's exposure of the lies by Avneri and Israel Shamir.
Avneri wants "peace" at Israel's expense; to you this is just and dignified.
~"Sadly, dear Uri is not a terrorist with a massacre named after him."
You know where you can shove your sarcasm and Israel Shamir's.

"Had Uri Avnery become Prime Minister of Israel at any time over the past forty-five years, there would be a Palestinian state a LONG time ago. There would have been peace a LONG time ago. There would be PEACE today."

Nope, little wee lass.
All your above assertions have no evidence to support them.
For one, Avneri would become PM only if most Israeli Jews didn't mind dismantling Israel proper, for Avneri has been believing the Pals deserve the "right of return".
Furthermore, the Pals don't want peace other than in the dismantlement of Israel, and all but a handful of Israeli Jews wouldn't let that happen.

We certainly don't take your dung seriously.
But we count on you and your friends to carry on with your favorite past-time: posting comments rife with denial, slanderous charges and delusions ad infinitum.

Angel may be a good person (I disagree), yet what really matters is s/he refuses to realize there can't be a Palestinian state now and in the 1967 borders. The reasons have been discussed at length.

Start memorizing: the Palestinians (especially their leaders) are their own greatest enemy. They have always sabotaged - and still do - all efforts at peace making.

"We don't terribly care what..."

Who's "we?" The voices in your head? Seek professional help immediately, you PSYCHO.

I couldn't care less, you reprobate.

"Anti-Angie"? Giggle!

Forgive this wee lass if she is unable to stifle a giggle or two here. I've not seen this before. But that's the joy of being part of this Board. We are constantly astonished at what we see/read. And sometimes greatly amused.

Is everyone who supports Israel and its IDF, like, out there in class somewhere studying ways and means of being as obnoxious as their beloved army? Or are you all born that way?

And why is it that you all sound exactly the same? Read one "rant", and you've read them all. Hell, talk about originality!! Nah, let's not. There isn't any.

And while you're about it (in your spare time away from the Board if you have any) why don't you look up the meaning of "sarcasm".

Simply stating an obvious fact that dear Uri isn't a terrorist nor does he have a massacre named after him is a fact. And it's not a sarcastic fact, sir. Just a fact.

Oooh, but "facts" wouldn't be anything you're famililar with. Darn, forgot! Facts just get in the way of a good rant, don't they?

And let me also state this, sir. Angel's determination and intelligence with respect to a peace plan sure as hell makes more sense and is more interesting reading than anything you may cough up on this Board.

.

Poor lad! All you can come up with is a suggestion that I am a "psycho" in need of help. Now that leaves you where?

Ah, don't you like poor little me bravely battling your friends here on our beloved SF Indymedia Board almost daily? You don't? Waaaah!!! (Crying giant tears)

In that case, you are not engaging in constructive dialog. You are engaged in mindless heckling. Mindless heckling is not allowed. Stop it now, or your comments will be removed.

You poor thing. I care about what people on this board think? Hahaha.

Oh, I may have several months ago, but I've been blessed by being given great advice from people here who matter.

I don't expect you and your friends to pat me on the back, nor would I want to.

As an example of my point: I came across one of my tapes last night from April of 2002 (yes, after Jenin), and a TV reporter was interviewing somebody from Israel (whose name I can't recall, but it's there on the tape, and it's not all that important).

When the reporter prefaced a question by saying "And with the ongoing violence on both sides" ---- the chap representing Israel became highly offended. "We do not commit violence", he anapped, while I thought, yep, that's the mentality of the Israel supporters all right. I don't think I need to say more.

because he engaged in mindless heckling. All his comments have been removed. We appologize for any non sequiturs this has caused. If you see any WTF comments that we missed, or anything else that annoys you, please notify us by email. We'll deal with it ASAP.

If you are a different WTF, not the foul mouthed, narrow minded, Zionist bigot, and feel that one of your comments has been removed unfairly, we appologize. Please contact us and we'll deal with each comment on an individual basis.

We can be reached at:

imc-sf-editorial [at] lists.indymedia.org

Take the hint, people. Contructive criticism and dialog among progressive minded individuals is welcome here. Racism, homophbia, war mongering, mindless heckling, spam, links to enemy websites and anything else that annoys any of the editors, or annoys any of their friends, allies or potential friends and allies, is not. It will be removed. Those who post it will be banned.

I may owe you an apology.

I've just read your post again, and it's entirely possible you were not talking to me at all.

If that is so, please forgive and ignore my - yes - nasty response. Early morning is not a good time for me to respond to anything. I'm sorry.

If you were referring to me, well, so be it.

""Palestinian State now????
by ANGEL to WTF Wednesday August 27, 2003 at 12:40 AM""(Not the real ANGEL, posted by a coward who is afraid to use his/her own handle)

Correction:

Palestinian State now....
by ANGEL to WTF Tuesday August 26, 2003 at 09:48 PM

I am for the 300,000 or so settlers being allowed to stay where they are if they chose to..
But I am for A Palestinian State with the Israeli Borders set back to pre 1967....

To end the resistance to the Occupation you have to end the Occupation that allows for the resistance….

est Bank and Gaza are only 22% of what is TODAY, Israel, West Bank and Gaza.
PLEASE LOOK AT THE MAP IN THE FOLLOWING WEB PAGE:
The Orange areas are Israeli settlements in the already small 22% that is West Bank and Gaza. What kind of carved up mess will the Palestinian State be unless all the settlements are removed (which will probably never happen) or just make the settlements part of the New Palestinian State (which can happen right now)??
CLICK HERE > http://mondediplo.com/maps/IMG/artoff3260.jpg

For there to be Peace and for there to be a reason for the Palestinian People to stop their fight for Freedom:
We need a Palestinian State with Reasonable Border NOW, If the Road Map that is backed by the U.S., U.N., E.U., and Russia is to work...
Send in a Joint, U.S., U.N. Peace keeping Force to the West Bank and Gaza for the sole purpose of trying to avoid conflicts between the Palestinian and the settlers..
Then have the Biased (biased because they will always be on the side of the settlers) Israeli Military retreat to the pre 1967 Israeli Borders, They can then concentrate their effort on guarding this Border..
(MAHMOUD ABBAS HAS SAID MORE THEN ONCE THAT HE WANTS U.S. OBSERVERS THERE, THAT IS THE ONLY WAY, THAT THE TRUTH OF WHAT IS REALLY OCCURRING WILL BE BELIEVED BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.)
Example of a possible solution:
SET THE BORDERS BACK TO 1967...
In return the Refugees have no Right of Return inside the 1967 Israeli Borders..
One complaint that Israel has is that the Right of Return will result in two Palestinian States, (The Right of return is almost impossible any way because the land and homes they lost are now built up with Jewish homes businesses etc…)
The Refugees can be helped to settle somewhere in the new Palestinian State..
The Settlements are now part of Palestine...
If the some 300,000 Israeli Settlers living in Palestine do not like living there, they can move to Israel...
If the 1,000,000 or so Palestinians who now live in Israel do not like living in Israel, they can move to Palestine...
If 1,000,000 or so Palestinians can live in Israel, then some 300,000 Israeli Settlers can live in Palestine if they choose to stay..
If you take Israel, West Bank and Gaza, West Bank and Gaza is only 22% of the total area in Question, This small amount is not too much to ask for millions of Palestinians who must have their freedom to have a peaceful life.
If this solution was implemented there is a good chance the so called terrorist (seen as freedom fighters by the oppressed Palestinian People) would stop their fight, if not they would be very foolish because then Israel would have a just cause to fight back and the U.S. would have a just cause to help Israel fight back.
Otherwise we will continue to have:
Israel: We have to confiscate Palestinian land and demolish Palestinian homes because there are suicide bombers???
Palestine: We have to defend ourselves because Israel is slowly confiscating all our land and demolishing our homes. We have no military to defend ourselves and and our land. If we do nothing, we will soon have nothing at all???
The era of colonization is past,. We can not expect to oppress millions of Palestinian People and still have peace.

Palestinian State now....
by ANGEL to WTF Tuesday August 26, 2003 at 09:48 PM
(Not the real ANGEL, posted by a coward who is afraid to use his/her own handle...)

Correction:

Palestinian State now???
by ANGEL to WTF

I am for the 300,000 or so settlers being allowed to stay where they are if they chose to..
But I am for A Palestinian State with the Israeli Borders set back to pre 1967....even though the presence of the settlers would wreck the viability of the Palestinian state prior to its creation.

To end the Resistance to the Occupation it's not even enough to end the Occupation that ostensibly allows for the Resistance….

West Bank and Gaza are only 22% of what is TODAY, Israel, West Bank and Gaza.
PLEASE LOOK AT THE MAP IN THE FOLLOWING WEB PAGE:
The Orange areas are Israeli settlements in the already small 22% that is West Bank and Gaza. What kind of carved up mess will the Palestinian State be unless all the settlements are removed (which will probably never happen) or just make the settlements part of the New Palestinian State (which CAN'T happen right now)??
CLICK HERE > http://mondediplo.com/maps/IMG/artoff3260.jpg
So if I am for letting the settlements stay, my conclusion is there should be no Palestinian state!!!

For there to be Peace and for there to be a reason for the Palestinian People to stop their fight for Freedom:
We should NOT have a Palestinian State with Unreasonable Borders NOW, If the Road Map that is backed by the U.S., U.N., E.U., and Russia is to work...
Send in a Joint, U.S., U.N. Peace keeping Force to the West Bank and Gaza for the sole purpose of trying to avoid conflicts between the Palestinian and the settlers...even though this is doomed to failure from the outset...
Then have the Biased (biased because they will always be on the side of the settlers) Israeli Military retreat to the pre 1967 Israeli Borders, They can then concentrate their effort on guarding this Border..
(MAHMOUD ABBAS HAS SAID MORE THEN ONCE THAT HE WANTS U.S. OBSERVERS THERE, THAT IS THE ONLY WAY, THAT THE TRUTH OF WHAT IS REALLY OCCURRING WILL BE BELIEVED BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT...BUT I KNOW I'M WRONG...)
Example of an impossible solution:
SET THE BORDERS BACK TO 1967...
In return the Refugees have no Right of Return inside the 1967 Israeli Borders..
One complaint that Israel has is that the Right of Return will result in two Palestinian States, (The Right of return is almost impossible any way because the land and homes they lost are now built up with Jewish homes businesses etc…)
The Refugees can be helped to settle somewhere in the new Palestinian State..
The Settlements are now part of Palestine...
If the some 300,000 Israeli Settlers living in Palestine do not like living there, they can move to Israel...
If the 1,000,000 or so Palestinians who now live in Israel do not like living in Israel, they can move to Palestine...
If 1,000,000 or so Palestinians can live in Israel, then some 300,000 Israeli Settlers can live in Palestine if they choose to stay...even though that makes it an impossible mission to carve up a Palestinian state with Reasonable Borders...
If you take Israel, West Bank and Gaza, West Bank and Gaza is only 22% of the total area in Question, This small amount is not too much to ask for millions of Palestinians who must have their freedom to have a peaceful life.
Even If this non-solution were implemented there is a NO chance the so called freedom fighters (in reality, terrorists) would stop their fight, because they are very foolish, as they want a Palestinian state on more than the West Bank and Gaza...because then Israel would have a just cause to fight back and the U.S. would have a just cause to help Israel fight back.
Still, having implemented the so-called solution, we will continue to have: Israel: We have to confiscate Palestinian land and demolish Palestinian homes because there are suicide bombers???
Palestine: We have to defend ourselves because Israel is slowly confiscating all our land and demolishing our homes. We have no military to defend ourselves and our land. If we do nothing, we will soon have nothing at all???

Does anyone care about who is being murdered in this conflict???
The Palestinians murder Jews while Jews almost never murder Palestinians...
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

Ang was unable to debunk my response. Nothing she had to say was to the points WTF and I made.

It also was quite amusing to see her lash out at that "anti-psycho" (someone who inadvertently added "anti" to his/her screen name) trying to come to her defense.
Angie seems like a basketcase. Even after having read the "anti-psycho" post again, she's still not sure it wasn't addressed to her!!
Therefore it cannot be claimed the heated debate got the best of her...

It's my opinion Angie should seek mental aid, the sooner the better.

Don't think that by invoking God, you're going to make an impression, sir. God, if no one else, knows where you're coming from and where you'll go.

The only flaw in my mental health is responding to idiots like you, but blessedly that can be dealt with easly enough.

Curious that the only other person on this board who ever referred to me as '"Ang" was the late departed Fresca. A connection, perhaps?

That the only other person to disparage my mental health was also "Fresca". I wonder??

I'm not fresca, nor am I related to him.

P.S. : hope you've learned your leasons...

What lessons am I supposed to learn, pray tell? Don't patronize me, mister. Who do you think you are anyway?

If you're not "Fresca", I can only assume that you went to the same school for obnoxious behaviour.

Now run along and be "Anti" someone else. I'm bored with your garbage, and I'm out of here.