Israel's Prison Wall Around The West Bank

Just one More Reason we need that Palestinian State with reasonable borders now....
What is happening to that ROAD MAP????

West Bank and Gaza are only 22% of what is TODAY, Israel, West Bank and Gaza.
PLEASE LOOK AT THE MAP IN THE FOLLOWING WEB PAGE:
The Orange areas are Israeli settlements in the already small 22% that is West Bank and Gaza. What kind of carved up mess will the Palestinian State be unless all the settlements are removed (which will probably never happen) or just make the settlements part of the New Palestinian State (which can happen right now)??
CLICK HERE > http://mondediplo.com/maps/IMG/artoff3260.jpg

For there to be Peace and for there to be a reason for the Palestinian People to stop their fight for Freedom:
We need a Palestinian State with Reasonable Border NOW, If the Road Map that is backed by the U.S., U.N., E.U., and Russia is to work...
Send in a Joint, U.S., U.N. Peace keeping Force to the West Bank and Gaza for the sole purpose of trying to avoid conflicts between the Palestinian and the settlers..
Then have the Biased (biased because they will always be on the side of the settlers) Israeli Military retreat to the pre 1967 Israeli Borders, They can then concentrate their effort on guarding this Border..
(MAHMOUD ABBAS HAS SAID MORE THEN ONCE THAT HE WANTS U.S. OBSERVERS THERE, THAT IS THE ONLY WAY, THAT THE TRUTH OF WHAT IS REALLY OCCURRING WILL BE BELIEVED BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.)
Example of a possible solution:
SET THE BORDERS BACK TO 1967...
In return the Refugees have no Right of Return inside the 1967 Israeli Borders..
One complaint that Israel has is that the Right of Return will result in two Palestinian States, (The Right of return is almost impossible any way because the land and homes they lost are now built up with Jewish homes businesses etc…)
The Refugees can be helped to settle somewhere in the new Palestinian State..
The Settlements are now part of Palestine...
If the some 300,000 Israeli Settlers living in Palestine do not like living there, they can move to Israel...
If the 1,000,000 or so Palestinians who now live in Israel do not like living in Israel, they can move to Palestine...
If 1,000,000 or so Palestinians can live in Israel, then some 300,000 Israeli Settlers can live in Palestine if they choose to stay..
If you take Israel, West Bank and Gaza, West Bank and Gaza is only 22% of the total area in Question, This small amount is not too much to ask for millions of Palestinians who must have their freedom to have a peaceful life.
If this solution was implemented there is a good chance the so called terrorist (seen as freedom fighters by the oppressed Palestinian People) would stop their fight, if not they would be very foolish because then Israel would have a just cause to fight back and the U.S. would have a just cause to help Israel fight back.
Otherwise we will continue to have:
Israel: We have to confiscate Palestinian land and demolish Palestinian homes because there are suicide bombers???
Palestine: We have to defend ourselves because Israel is slowly confiscating all our land and demolishing our homes. We have no military to defend ourselves and our land. If we do nothing, we will soon have nothing at all???
The era of colonization is past,. We can not expect to oppress millions of Palestinian People and still have peace.

How many people are dying because of this on going conflict???
Deaths on both sides since this Intifada began in September of 2000:

CLICK HERE > http://westbynorthwest.org/artman/publish/article_454.shtml

Israel's self-defense wall is surrounding Israel. It is not surrounding the west bank. When palestinains don't celebrate the murder of innocent jews on buses, as they did today, israel won't have to worry quite so much about surrounding itself with a wall. The West bank borders Jordan, there's no wall there. Only where israel is. You israel-hating nuts need mental help, you're so obsessed that you are willing to lie to make your inaccurate, absurd points.

Palestinian bomber was an Islamic cleric from Hebron. Wife proud. (english)
Palestinian death cult 5:03pm Tue Aug 19 '03 (Modified on 10:55pm Tue Aug 19 '03)

Article at:

http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=339481&group=webcast

"""Hamas released Mesk's farewell video. The plump man with the bushy beard said he was a member of the Hamas military wing, Izzedine al Qassam, accused Israel of violating the cease-fire offered by Hamas.

Mesk's wife Arij began clearing belongings out of her home late Tuesday, in expectation that it would be demolished by Israeli troops. The army routinely destroys the homes of suicide bombers, hoping it will act as a deterrent.""" (from article at above link)

What happened on that bus was horrific and I feel sadness for all the people hurt and the families of the people killed.
It is too bad that the killing of Palestinian People led to this retaliation, and why am I not surprised???
Now of course Israel will have to retaliate again and then of course the Palestinians will have to retaliate again and on and on.....
So to end all of these atrocities:

We have to pick a moment in time and have that Palestinian State where the Palestinians can live in Peace and Israel can have their State at its pre 1967 borders where they can live in Peace.

Details on Deaths since the Iftifada began (both Israeli and Palestinian:
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

As long as the numbers of Palestinians killed by the Israelis is higher then the numbers of Israelis killed by the Palestinians we cannot say the Palestinian are worse then the Israel (or the other way around if that were the case.) I truly feel sorry for the children on both side because they have nothing to do with this conflict..
But if you look at the site about these deaths the Number of Palestinian Children out number the number of Israeli Children..

For a Peaceful Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://dc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=64554&group=webcast

"Critical Thinker" (the post above) sounds a lot like the departed KL. Has he reinvented himself/herself under an assumed name (if "critical thinker" can be called a "name"?)

You know, the "you are a moron" or "you are a liar" etc. Interesting.

The entire premise of this article is a lie.

Israel's self-defense wall intends to surround israel. It is not surrounding the west bank.

As the second anniversary of 9/11 approaches, it is worth recalling that it arrives on the heels of another second anniversary, one that will get far less attention, but one that should not be forgotten.

I speak of the UN World Conference Against Racism in Durban, South Africa, which concluded on September 7, 2001. Ignoring its own name, this conference offered a global stage to those promoting a vile new version of anti-Semitic, racist hatred. Just days before September 11th would leave Americans numb with rage, Jews were alarmed by news from Durban, where global do-gooders mingled with pro-Palestinian fanatics whose leaflets depicted Jews as Nazis, Jews as fanged beasts, Jews as bloodsucking money-hungry parasites. This gathering of transnational trendsetters and savage anti-Semites was a sight not seen before, at least not by the many millions who read about and watched this international hate-fest unfold.

The specific content of the anti-Semitic imagery at Durban was not new, but the political and ideological context that gave it meaning was. Not enough people have yet come to grips with this new anti-Semitism. Instead, Americans liberals oppose public displays of Christmas scenes, call for yet more “tolerance” education in the schools, or, to take a current example, protest Mel Gibson’s depiction of the Jews of Jerusalem in his forthcoming film on the Crucifixion.

Perhaps this is to be expected. For centuries, anti-Semitism in the West was the deformed offspring of internal disputes within the Judeo-Christian tradition. The blood libel, charges of deicide, stereotypes about Shylock and money-grubbing Jewish merchants became the stuff of anti-Semitic mythology. Even Hitler’s anti-Semitic imagery drew on this tradition and integrated it into a racialist worldview in which Aryan purity was endangered by Jewish corruption and deformity.

The new version of anti-Semitism, that of the Muslims and leftists, integrate these images into a new paradigm, depicting Jews not as outcasts within Western society but new world-class oppressors of the poor and downtrodden. This is an appeal far more likely to disarm liberals and leftists and even win their sympathy than the older forms of anti-Semitism that presumed a Jewish community of marginalized victims. As a result, the new anti-Semitism is much harder to counter by traditional methods that rely on exposure, education and shame.

This new anti-Semitism is strongest in the Middle East, where it has mushroomed out of control in recent decades, and especially since the second Intifada began in 2000. It draws on certain passage in the Koran. More importantly, it then builds on these passages by directly incorporating all the details of Nazi racialist imagery — leering and lecherous Jews with hooked noses, Jews snatching and sacrificing children, Jews as deceitful parasites secretively plotting the destruction of the world. Needless to say, such Islamofascist Nazi-style hatred is not amenable to appeals to basic Judeo-Christian principles, the actual details of Biblical stories, or the pseudo-scientific nature of nineteenth century racial theories. It arises out of an entirely different context, one that makes it far less open to reasoned criticism.

Hizballah’s senior cleric Sheik Husayn Fadlallah, puts it this way:

“The Jews want to be a world superpower. This racist circle of Jews wants to take vengeance on the whole world for their history of persecution and humiliation. In this light, the Jews will work on the basis that Jewish interests are above all world interests.”


Then there are the views of the Syrian defense minister Mustafa Tlas introducing his insane book The Matzo of Zion: “The Jew can kill you and take your blood in order to make his Zionist bread.” Similar views were once common in the West, but at a time when the Jews were weak and downtrodden. What gives such notions more resonance and a different significance in the Middle East is that the Jews there have a state of their own. It is a powerful and successful state, a constant humiliating reminder of the failed states and societies of just about every other nation in the region. To the traumatized and angry Muslim masses, it is Israel that enables the Jews to carry out on a larger scale than ever the unspeakable acts of which fanatics like Fadlallah and Tlas accuse them.

Lest these views be seen as confined to extremists, recall that Egyptian television recently aired a 41-part series presenting The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as the plain truth. The Protocols are a vile Czarist forgery depicting a Jewish conspiracy to control the world. The paranoid delusion this forgery promotes is widely accepted throughout the Middle East. Along with Hitler’s Mein Kampf, it is one of the most popular books in the region now. However, despite the efforts of a few Jewish organizations, no well-publicized campaign against the Egyptian television series was ever mounted in the West, certainly nothing like the one gathering now against Mel Gibson’s film.

Historian Robert Wistrich , in a recent report for the American Jewish Committee, says this about the prevailing indifference toward this new anti-Semitism:

“The seemingly endless parade of grotesque falsehoods exhibited in Arab and Muslim defamations of Jews and the Jewish state scarcely seem to impinge on Western consciousness…. Not even the rampant Arab claims that the Holocaust was a fabrication invented by Zionists and Jews (which attracts much attention in the European media when made by neo-Nazis or far rightists) stir more than the faintest of responses in the West.”


Meanwhile, millions of Muslim immigrants from the Middle East have flooded into Europe in recent years. Islamic radicals among them have brought along their region’s version of anti-Semitism. In addition, both the so-called right and the anti-Israel extreme Left have joined their own versions of the disease to this repulsive Islamist stream. The result has been a terrifying upsurge of synagogue burnings, attacks on Jews in the streets, slurs and jokes in the media — along with silence or even snickering approval from the continent’s political elites.

The only anti-Semitism these elites energetically oppose is the supposedly "right-wing" form. These groups base their hatred of Jews on pseudo-scientific racial theories and a violent defense of perceived racial and national superiority. It is every bit as vicious and violent toward Turkish and Algerian immigrants as it is toward the Jews. In its extreme xenophobia, it represents all that embarrasses enlightened opinion in Europe about the continent’s own sordid past. As a result, liberal elites there are only too happy to condemn this form of anti-Semitism.

The anti-Semitism of the Left itself is another matter. Like all the Left’s hatreds, its version of anti-Semitism derives from its relentless politicization of life. Its transnational hopes (regarding Europe, in any case) prevent it from sympathizing with neo-Nazi anti-Semitism. Nor does it draw on the Christian varieties. Much of the left in Europe is contemptuous of all religious views, Christianity in particular. Its deepest obsession is Israel, not the Crucifixion. It is focused on recent Jewish history, not on Biblical stories. The Left does occasionally twists Biblical themes to fit its political and secular anti-Semitic focus.

At Davos, Switzerland, last January, for example, a group of anti-globalization activists wearing yellow stars of David carted around a golden calf in protest against Israel. In the past, Muslim societies and the Nazis alike forced Jews to wear similar yellow stars as badges of humiliation. Why the protesters would have openly reproduced such colossal bigotry is hard to fathom. As for the golden calf, is it plausible to think that an accurate account of Genesis would have disabused the protesters of their obtuse and anti-Semitic use of this symbol? It’s not likely they would have cared. Their real focus was on Israel and its alleged crimes, not on the Bible.

The same is true of the now infamous cartoon appearing in the Italian newspaper La Stampa during the Palestinian take over of the Church of the Nativity in 2002. The cartoon depicted a baby Jesus looking up from the manger at an Israeli tank, saying, "Don't tell me they want to kill me again." Obviously, the cartoon does restate the ancient charge of deicide against the Jews. However, it’s hard to believe that La Stampa, a liberal newspaper, or its readers actually give much thought to the Crucifixion. Far more significant is the way the cartoon equates the entire Jewish people and its long history with the state of Israel. In so doing, it unmasks the left’s standard claim that its stance is merely anti-Israel, not anti-Semitic. The Left’s deep and abiding anti-Semitic animus toward Israel is what should most concern us, not an occasional crude reference to Christ and the Crucifixion. In fact, far more common now than images of the golden calf or the baby Jesus are the many grotesque caricatures equating Israeli leaders and their policies with those of the Nazis. This bizarre linkage exposes the current anti-Semitic obsessions of the left. Devotion to Christ or Christianity is not on its agenda.

Antagonism toward Israel is widespread in Europe now. This makes it easy to cloak anti-Semitism as anti-Zionism. It is this cover that allows so many intellectuals, members of the media, even government officials to look the other way, remain indifferent, or even voice their own contempt for Jews and for Israel. It is this that makes it easy for those who otherwise oppose racist xenophobia to ignore its ugly manifestations among Arabs and Muslims — or even to endorse these as nationalist resistance to colonial oppression.

As one honest leftist recently acknowledged in this spring’s Dissent:

“Sneering chatter of a powerful international Jewish lobby, once the stock and trade of fascist propaganda, has now become a staple of left-wing comment on Israel in the British and European press. By contrast, the activities of Arab, Muslim, and pro-Palestinian advocacy groups in the media and public discussion of the Middle East have gone largely unremarked.”

Yet the problem is not simply with Europe. America’s multicultural mania leads to a similar tone-deafness with regard to the new anti-Semitism. For example, take my own field, K-12 history and social studies education. In recent years, all of the major annual national teachers conferences have regularly include dozens of sessions on the Holocaust. Most of these sessions draw from the Holocaust all sorts of politically correct lessons about the need for tolerance toward racial, religious and gender subgroups here at home. Yet in my many years of attending these conferences, I have yet to see even one session on anti-Semitism in the Middle East or Europe. Instead, the newest mantra in the field is the need to counter prejudice and negative stereotyping of Muslims and Arabs — to the point of ignoring, or even excusing, the new totalitarian forms of anti-Semitism among them.

This stress on “tolerance” leads to efforts to monitor expression, sanitize textbooks, and remove all offensive references from stories and films. The approach trivializes anti-Semitism and underestimates its deeply irrational nature. This is naïve in the extreme. It suggests that anti-Semitism is little more than a big misunderstanding, an error in reasoning that better reasoning can correct.

Such an approach underestimates the emotional and intellectual appeal of the new anti-Semitism. The new forms of anti-Semitism are ultimately not based on mistaken notions about the Crucifixion, or about the racial or national characteristics of the Jewish people. And they are not amenable to reason at all. In the Middle East, the new anti-Semitism is rooted in a profound and traumatic sense of helplessness in the face of the forces of modernity. It offers its adherents a totalitarian fantasy of bloody vengeance and ultimate triumph. In the West, among both the left and right, it appeals to people deeply alienated from their own civilization, so alienated that they have turned in hatred against both its Christian and Judaic traditions. Containing and countering these new forms of anti-Semitism will demand a far tougher, more aggressive fight than we have seen so far against deeply entrenched ideas and determined foes.

Click here:

http://www.ism-london.org/accounts/one-big-prison.html

To the person above who posted the outrageous comment about Israel's "defense wall" (that's stretching the truth more than a little) I suggest you take the time to read:

"The Evil Wall" by Uri Avnery, dated 3 May 03.

You can find it at the following location:

http:///http://www.avnery-news.cp.il/english/index.htlm

Uri lives in Israel and knows what's happening there as his article above will attest. Are you living in Israel?

That should be:

http://www.avnery-news.co.il/english/index.html

Anyone who has read or seen a map of the wall and/or fence knows that some of it is being build inside (West Bank) the Green Line (pre 1967 borders).
If Israel was committed to a fair and Just Peace it would build this wall and/or fence on the Green Line, It would then be easier for Israel to control and Guard its borders.
Then the Palestinians can have their State (Road Map Again) with reasonable Borders.
The Israeli settlers who do not like living in this new Palestinian State can choose to move to Israel Proper.
Having the Palestinian State now would probably end much of the on going conflict and therefore allowing the details to be worked out..
As we all can see what is happening right now is not leading to Peace..
For Possible Solution:
Click Here >

If she means to say you are similar to KL you can take it as a compliment (although she probably did not mean it that way). KL is a intelligent person who argues with facts.
I expect he got called a "zionist" a few times like anyone else who takes a sensible view around here.

the river jordan is plenty fine to separate the murdering terrorist child killing scum arabs from the civilized jews -- put them on nice A/C conditioned buses and drop them off "in historic Palestine" -- Jordan -- let the Hashemites deal with their scum brothers.

People with intelligence do not resort to labelling anyone with differing viewpoints a "liar".

Angie -
that would depend on if they lie or not.

People who call everyone else liars do so because they are so familiar with the word having taken it to an art form themselves.

It is quite hard not to lie at least a little bit.
some people dont even try.