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Stop The Forced Removal Of Christians And Muslims In Hebron, Occupied Palestine
Avia Pasternak, a graduate student at Hebrew University, and a member of the Israeli-Palestinian peace group Taayush, wants enquiring minds to know what is actually going on in the Occupied Territories
Stop the transfer policy in the southern Hebron hills!
Solidarity and Harvest Convoy Against the Violence, June 14th 2003
The threat of expulsion still hangs over the Palestinian population of the southern Hebron hills. While the "big transfer" with trucks and bulldozers is still being discussed in the courts, on the ground a plan for "creeping transfer," in the style of Yanun, is taking place. This plan includes several components: preventing the farmers from working their land (by shooting at them, for example), attacking children on their way to school, a complete ban on all kinds of ! building or development, and nocturnal "visits" to isolated khirbehs with the aim of terrorizing their inhabitants. If in the past it was the settlers who were responsible for most of these activities, recently they have handed over such tasks to the army. For example, last week two jeeps of the "Lavi" brigade entered Twaneh village in the middle of the night and marched all the villagers into the nearby wadi, at the same time destroying property and behaving violently. The company commander then informed the villagers that they were forbidden to be in contact with Israeli peace activists. "Throw stones at them when they come," they were told.
The army of transfer does not want witnesses to its actions.
Even as the Sharon government says it no longer wants the occupation, in practice facts are being created on the ground. Palestine is being divided up into a series of Bantustans surrounded by fences, trenches, and roadblocks. Thousands are being deprived of their livelihood. A massive effort is under way to dispossess villagers in areas near the settlements. The situation in the southern Hebron hills, an area that the State of Israel has for years been trying to "cleanse" of its Arab population in order to annex it, is particularly bad.
Sharon's true plan is transparent. You have only to look at the fields that the army is preventing the villagers from harvesting.
In order to protest and not to be silent, we have gathered en masse on Saturday, June 14th 2003, and went to help with the harvest in the southern Hebron hills.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Unholy Alliance In the Occupied Territories
By: Avia Pasternak
Minutes after the Ta’ayush activists arrived at the wheat field together with the Palestinian villagers, a group of settlers, lead by the Rabbi of ‘Maon’ settlement, began running down the hill towards them. The settlers shouted at the harvesters, threatening them and demanding that they leave the field. Some of them had guns.
At that point the soldiers intervened. Instead of arresting the rioters, they stopped the harvest, denying the Palestinians access to their land. As is usually the case in South Hebron, they protected the violent law-breakers the Jewish settlers.
It all began several hours earlier. Saturday morning, not long after dawn, Ta’ayush activists from all over Israel left their homes in order to join the Palestinians from Twaneh, a small village located in South Hebron. We wanted to harvest a wheat field that is located near the Jewish settlement Maon.
Saturday marked the end of a gory week the terrorist bombing in the center of Jerusalem, two targeted assassinations in Gaza, and a long list of innocent Palestinian and Israeli victims. Especially at a time like this, it was important for us to demonstrate our solidarity with our Palestinian friends and to protest against the endless bloodshed. With black flags on every vehicle, we drove towards Twaneh.
Approximately one kilometer past the green line soldiers and the border police blocked our way with an improvised roadblock. They had been waiting for our arrival.
The commander declared the place a closed military zone and told us to turn around and leave immediately. We asked him to show us the legal order stating that this was indeed a closed military zone, yet he had no such order at hand. What was worse, while the soldiers at the roadblock did not allow Ta’ayush activists to enter the region with their cars, they enabled settlers’ cars to pass. South Hebron is closed only for peace activists.
Following repeated demands on our part to see the order, the commander announced that the ‘Lavi’ regiment commander, Lieutenant-Colonel Yehuda, would arrive shortly to show us the order. The Lavi is a regiment of conscript soldiers that is currently assigned to the area (and consists mostly of soldiers who are from Jewish settlements).
After waiting about half and hour we decided that while we were being blocked settler cars would not pass. We sat on the road thus blocking all cars from passing through.
At this point the roadblock commander allowed four activists to drive to the next checkpoint in order to talk to the regiment commander.
The regiment commander had a written order declaring the area a closed military zone, signed by the brigade commander, dating from the 14th of June, 8:00 AM, until the 15th of June. Clearly, the order was issued in ‘honor’ of our visit.
The commander also showed us other orders pertaining to different areas in South Hebron. All access roads had been blocked in order to ‘prevent a violent collision between Ta’ayush activists and settlers,’ as he put it. Although Ta’ayush activists clarified that they were interested only in harvesting the land together with the Palestinians, and that they would avoid on their part any contact with settlers, we were still treated as a threatening force.
After lengthy negotiations, the regiment commander permitted two Ta’ayush cars to pass through. He announced that there was no restriction on harvesting the field and even promised that his soldiers would secure the harvesters. Despite the fact that 150 activists had hoped to reach the village, meet the people, and help with the harvest, we decided to compromise hoping that the Palestinians would finally have an opportunity to harvest their field. They had been waiting a month and a half and in a few weeks it would be too late.
Two vehicles with Ta’ayush activists as well as authors David Grossman and Meir Shalev who had joined the convoy left for Twaneh. The rest of the cars drove to Jimba, a Palestinian cave dwellers community located further south. Settlers who reside in the outposts nearby also constantly harass the Jimba residents blocking their access to their water wells and fields.
Meanwhile, at Twaneh our Palestinian friends greeted the activists. The ‘Ta’ayush Tent’ where we gather every week was knocked down by soldiers from the Lavi regiment a week earlier during a violent attack on the village.
The villagers told the activists that they had been preparing for the harvest since early that morning, and that the soldiers together with the supervisor from the Civil Administration had limited the harvest to those patches of land furthest away from ‘Maon’ settlement. This order contradicted the promise made earlier by the regiment commander.
Within minutes after the Palestinians and activists began the harvest, a group of settlers came running down from Maon, led by the Rabbi of the settlement. They shouted at the activists and Palestinians, threatening them and demanding that they leave the field immediately. The soldiers, in turn, demanded that Ta’ayush activists leave the field; instead of arresting the rioters, they stopped the harvest.
Once again the violent settlers won the day. Once again the unholy alliance between the settlers, military, police and civil administration was exposed. This alliance is indeed the backbone of the cruel occupation.
Despite the frustration and disappointment, we plan to go back to South Hebron this coming Saturday. We plan to harvest the field. We will not succumb.
Avia Pasternak is a graduate student at Hebrew University and can be reached at aviap [at] mscc.huji.ac.il
Solidarity and Harvest Convoy Against the Violence, June 14th 2003
The threat of expulsion still hangs over the Palestinian population of the southern Hebron hills. While the "big transfer" with trucks and bulldozers is still being discussed in the courts, on the ground a plan for "creeping transfer," in the style of Yanun, is taking place. This plan includes several components: preventing the farmers from working their land (by shooting at them, for example), attacking children on their way to school, a complete ban on all kinds of ! building or development, and nocturnal "visits" to isolated khirbehs with the aim of terrorizing their inhabitants. If in the past it was the settlers who were responsible for most of these activities, recently they have handed over such tasks to the army. For example, last week two jeeps of the "Lavi" brigade entered Twaneh village in the middle of the night and marched all the villagers into the nearby wadi, at the same time destroying property and behaving violently. The company commander then informed the villagers that they were forbidden to be in contact with Israeli peace activists. "Throw stones at them when they come," they were told.
The army of transfer does not want witnesses to its actions.
Even as the Sharon government says it no longer wants the occupation, in practice facts are being created on the ground. Palestine is being divided up into a series of Bantustans surrounded by fences, trenches, and roadblocks. Thousands are being deprived of their livelihood. A massive effort is under way to dispossess villagers in areas near the settlements. The situation in the southern Hebron hills, an area that the State of Israel has for years been trying to "cleanse" of its Arab population in order to annex it, is particularly bad.
Sharon's true plan is transparent. You have only to look at the fields that the army is preventing the villagers from harvesting.
In order to protest and not to be silent, we have gathered en masse on Saturday, June 14th 2003, and went to help with the harvest in the southern Hebron hills.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Unholy Alliance In the Occupied Territories
By: Avia Pasternak
Minutes after the Ta’ayush activists arrived at the wheat field together with the Palestinian villagers, a group of settlers, lead by the Rabbi of ‘Maon’ settlement, began running down the hill towards them. The settlers shouted at the harvesters, threatening them and demanding that they leave the field. Some of them had guns.
At that point the soldiers intervened. Instead of arresting the rioters, they stopped the harvest, denying the Palestinians access to their land. As is usually the case in South Hebron, they protected the violent law-breakers the Jewish settlers.
It all began several hours earlier. Saturday morning, not long after dawn, Ta’ayush activists from all over Israel left their homes in order to join the Palestinians from Twaneh, a small village located in South Hebron. We wanted to harvest a wheat field that is located near the Jewish settlement Maon.
Saturday marked the end of a gory week the terrorist bombing in the center of Jerusalem, two targeted assassinations in Gaza, and a long list of innocent Palestinian and Israeli victims. Especially at a time like this, it was important for us to demonstrate our solidarity with our Palestinian friends and to protest against the endless bloodshed. With black flags on every vehicle, we drove towards Twaneh.
Approximately one kilometer past the green line soldiers and the border police blocked our way with an improvised roadblock. They had been waiting for our arrival.
The commander declared the place a closed military zone and told us to turn around and leave immediately. We asked him to show us the legal order stating that this was indeed a closed military zone, yet he had no such order at hand. What was worse, while the soldiers at the roadblock did not allow Ta’ayush activists to enter the region with their cars, they enabled settlers’ cars to pass. South Hebron is closed only for peace activists.
Following repeated demands on our part to see the order, the commander announced that the ‘Lavi’ regiment commander, Lieutenant-Colonel Yehuda, would arrive shortly to show us the order. The Lavi is a regiment of conscript soldiers that is currently assigned to the area (and consists mostly of soldiers who are from Jewish settlements).
After waiting about half and hour we decided that while we were being blocked settler cars would not pass. We sat on the road thus blocking all cars from passing through.
At this point the roadblock commander allowed four activists to drive to the next checkpoint in order to talk to the regiment commander.
The regiment commander had a written order declaring the area a closed military zone, signed by the brigade commander, dating from the 14th of June, 8:00 AM, until the 15th of June. Clearly, the order was issued in ‘honor’ of our visit.
The commander also showed us other orders pertaining to different areas in South Hebron. All access roads had been blocked in order to ‘prevent a violent collision between Ta’ayush activists and settlers,’ as he put it. Although Ta’ayush activists clarified that they were interested only in harvesting the land together with the Palestinians, and that they would avoid on their part any contact with settlers, we were still treated as a threatening force.
After lengthy negotiations, the regiment commander permitted two Ta’ayush cars to pass through. He announced that there was no restriction on harvesting the field and even promised that his soldiers would secure the harvesters. Despite the fact that 150 activists had hoped to reach the village, meet the people, and help with the harvest, we decided to compromise hoping that the Palestinians would finally have an opportunity to harvest their field. They had been waiting a month and a half and in a few weeks it would be too late.
Two vehicles with Ta’ayush activists as well as authors David Grossman and Meir Shalev who had joined the convoy left for Twaneh. The rest of the cars drove to Jimba, a Palestinian cave dwellers community located further south. Settlers who reside in the outposts nearby also constantly harass the Jimba residents blocking their access to their water wells and fields.
Meanwhile, at Twaneh our Palestinian friends greeted the activists. The ‘Ta’ayush Tent’ where we gather every week was knocked down by soldiers from the Lavi regiment a week earlier during a violent attack on the village.
The villagers told the activists that they had been preparing for the harvest since early that morning, and that the soldiers together with the supervisor from the Civil Administration had limited the harvest to those patches of land furthest away from ‘Maon’ settlement. This order contradicted the promise made earlier by the regiment commander.
Within minutes after the Palestinians and activists began the harvest, a group of settlers came running down from Maon, led by the Rabbi of the settlement. They shouted at the activists and Palestinians, threatening them and demanding that they leave the field immediately. The soldiers, in turn, demanded that Ta’ayush activists leave the field; instead of arresting the rioters, they stopped the harvest.
Once again the violent settlers won the day. Once again the unholy alliance between the settlers, military, police and civil administration was exposed. This alliance is indeed the backbone of the cruel occupation.
Despite the frustration and disappointment, we plan to go back to South Hebron this coming Saturday. We plan to harvest the field. We will not succumb.
Avia Pasternak is a graduate student at Hebrew University and can be reached at aviap [at] mscc.huji.ac.il
For more information:
http://taayush.tripod.com/new/20030614-sh-...
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End these atrocities...
Palestinian State Now with reasonable borders...
Open your eyes World and see what the Israeli Government is doing....
For a possible solution to this on going conflict:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
For more Details on this possible solution:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=311985&group=webcast
Palestinian State Now with reasonable borders...
Open your eyes World and see what the Israeli Government is doing....
For a possible solution to this on going conflict:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
For more Details on this possible solution:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=311985&group=webcast
You are pretty damn quick to jump all over Angel's plan for peace.
I haven't seen anything from you being offered as a solution to the so-called problem.
I note you've been pouncing on Angel quite a lot since you returned to the Board here in a flourish. Could that be because the plan put forth by Angel makes sense to the intelligent out here?
Let's see you come up with something.
I haven't seen anything from you being offered as a solution to the so-called problem.
I note you've been pouncing on Angel quite a lot since you returned to the Board here in a flourish. Could that be because the plan put forth by Angel makes sense to the intelligent out here?
Let's see you come up with something.
If you think you can move 3,500,000 people over to Jordan, does it not make sense to move 300,000 or so settlers to Israel...
Just because Jordan has people living there who are Palestinian does not mean the Palestinian People who were born in the West Bank and Gaza and whose parents and grandparents probably were born in the same area whatever it happened to be called at the time in when they lived there, some even before 1948 when Israel became a Country, Should give up their land and just leave the place where they live.....
Try telling an American landowner you have to leave your land because you are Irish or Italian and you Must go back to Ireland or Italy even though you were born on that land in the U.S., How much co-operation would you get???
Which is why the U.S., U.N., E.U., and Russia are trying to work on this Road Map, even with all its flaws...
Because no one with any common sense in todays world would not think that transferring 3,500,000 Palestinian from the land where they were born is not considered ethnic cleansing...
And again for a possible solution where both sides can have their State:
Click Here > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
For Details on this Solution:
Click Here > http://dc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=64554&group=webcast
Just because Jordan has people living there who are Palestinian does not mean the Palestinian People who were born in the West Bank and Gaza and whose parents and grandparents probably were born in the same area whatever it happened to be called at the time in when they lived there, some even before 1948 when Israel became a Country, Should give up their land and just leave the place where they live.....
Try telling an American landowner you have to leave your land because you are Irish or Italian and you Must go back to Ireland or Italy even though you were born on that land in the U.S., How much co-operation would you get???
Which is why the U.S., U.N., E.U., and Russia are trying to work on this Road Map, even with all its flaws...
Because no one with any common sense in todays world would not think that transferring 3,500,000 Palestinian from the land where they were born is not considered ethnic cleansing...
And again for a possible solution where both sides can have their State:
Click Here > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
For Details on this Solution:
Click Here > http://dc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=64554&group=webcast
Here is a tough one to organize but would be the best way if you could force everyone to agree to it.
Draw a best line between Israel and the other countries to put the most jews on one side and the most muslims on the other side. Then create a finiancial incentive structure for migration in the direction which makes this easier.
Then give the excess land to whatever country wants it or whatever country its people would like to be part of ... hopefully a smart palistinian would realise being part of jordan (for example) is a better bet than being part of a unviable palistinian state..
then get a security guarantee between these countries and Israel.
And get a guarantee of the rights of any remaining jews in those countries (I expect this to be a major problem)
Oh yes and the dismantling of any structure which systematically incites hatred of jews in those regions
Draw a best line between Israel and the other countries to put the most jews on one side and the most muslims on the other side. Then create a finiancial incentive structure for migration in the direction which makes this easier.
Then give the excess land to whatever country wants it or whatever country its people would like to be part of ... hopefully a smart palistinian would realise being part of jordan (for example) is a better bet than being part of a unviable palistinian state..
then get a security guarantee between these countries and Israel.
And get a guarantee of the rights of any remaining jews in those countries (I expect this to be a major problem)
Oh yes and the dismantling of any structure which systematically incites hatred of jews in those regions
""And uprooting some 300,000 Jews isn't ethnic cleansing???
Many Jews there would probably violently object to a transfer back to Israel. (I don't know if you're aware of the violent resistence by the residents of Yamit when the Israeli military came to move them back to Israel before the Sinai was given back to Egypt in April 1982. )""(Critical Thinker)
Unlike your plan to transfer 3,500,000 Palestinians to Jordan, In My possible solution the 300,000 Israelis could choose to stay in the new Palestinian State or leave, and the 1,300,000 Arabs living in Israel could choose to either stay or leave Israel.
Other than this two State Solution the only other reasonable option would be One State with a new neutral name like the Country of Seaside or whatever, where everyone including the Palestinians have equal rights, where there is a Constitution similer to that of the U.S.A. There fore a country where there are Jews, Christians and Muslims or even Athiest, and where you could have a Synagogue on one corner of a street a Christian Church on another Corner and a Mosque on a third where freedom of and from religion could be practiced.
Many Jews there would probably violently object to a transfer back to Israel. (I don't know if you're aware of the violent resistence by the residents of Yamit when the Israeli military came to move them back to Israel before the Sinai was given back to Egypt in April 1982. )""(Critical Thinker)
Unlike your plan to transfer 3,500,000 Palestinians to Jordan, In My possible solution the 300,000 Israelis could choose to stay in the new Palestinian State or leave, and the 1,300,000 Arabs living in Israel could choose to either stay or leave Israel.
Other than this two State Solution the only other reasonable option would be One State with a new neutral name like the Country of Seaside or whatever, where everyone including the Palestinians have equal rights, where there is a Constitution similer to that of the U.S.A. There fore a country where there are Jews, Christians and Muslims or even Athiest, and where you could have a Synagogue on one corner of a street a Christian Church on another Corner and a Mosque on a third where freedom of and from religion could be practiced.
"""I think another component must be added though: an ongoing concerted massive educational and propaganda effort to convince the "Palestinians" the idea of "Palestinian" statehood was a grave mistake to begin with."""(Critical Thinker)
Why is the idea of a Palestinian statehood a grave mistake for around 3,500,000. on 22% of the Land that is Today Israel, West Bank and Gaza and not a Mistake for a New Jewish State in 1948 for only 650,000 Jewish People (This number was taken from the Book:
Original Sins (page 201)
Reflections on the History of Zionism and Israel
By Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi
Olive Branch Press, New York, N.Y.)
And for Scottie's Solution the closest that I agree with that is if The West Bank becomes part of Jordan and Gaza becomes part of Egypt.
Therefore approx. 2,000,000 Palestinians become citizens of Jordan and the approx 300,000 Settlers either become citizens of Jordan or immigrate to Israel or live in Jordan on work visas with an Israeli Passport.
and the same for Gaza, Egypt....
Important Nations and People all over the World are for a Two State Solution where a Peaceful Israel and a Peaceful Palestine can live side by side, Just like other Small Nations.....Kuwait, Bahrain and Oman just to name a few.
Why is the idea of a Palestinian statehood a grave mistake for around 3,500,000. on 22% of the Land that is Today Israel, West Bank and Gaza and not a Mistake for a New Jewish State in 1948 for only 650,000 Jewish People (This number was taken from the Book:
Original Sins (page 201)
Reflections on the History of Zionism and Israel
By Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi
Olive Branch Press, New York, N.Y.)
And for Scottie's Solution the closest that I agree with that is if The West Bank becomes part of Jordan and Gaza becomes part of Egypt.
Therefore approx. 2,000,000 Palestinians become citizens of Jordan and the approx 300,000 Settlers either become citizens of Jordan or immigrate to Israel or live in Jordan on work visas with an Israeli Passport.
and the same for Gaza, Egypt....
Important Nations and People all over the World are for a Two State Solution where a Peaceful Israel and a Peaceful Palestine can live side by side, Just like other Small Nations.....Kuwait, Bahrain and Oman just to name a few.
Critical Thinker
"Scottie, I assume you meant a best line between Israel *proper* and other countries, right?"
As in excluding most of the west bank and Gaza? yes. In the long run you don’t want to have to make all the hamas members etc etc citizens of your country and unless it is in the face of an all out war moving the Palestinians out is going to be a hard sell to the UN or the general public. (read Israel as an international pariah.)
ANGEL
"And for Scottie's Solution the closest that I agree with that is if The West Bank becomes part of Jordan and Gaza becomes part of Egypt."
- Hmm geographically speaking unless we are going to redraw Jordan’s boarders that would be the most practical. but then again its not as if west bank and Gaza were going to be properly joined together.
"Therefore approx. 2,000,000 Palestinians become citizens of Jordan and the approx 300,000 Settlers either become citizens of Jordan or immigrate to Israel or live in Jordan on work visas with an Israeli Passport."
Yes exactly. Although I might want to shift the boarders a little so as to minimize the problem related to that. Maybe a period in which people are encouraged to move themselves by policy or money etc there are lots of ways this could be minimized. Then all Jordan has to do is to keep the terrorists under control and make sure any jews that are left have their human rights protected.
"Scottie, I assume you meant a best line between Israel *proper* and other countries, right?"
As in excluding most of the west bank and Gaza? yes. In the long run you don’t want to have to make all the hamas members etc etc citizens of your country and unless it is in the face of an all out war moving the Palestinians out is going to be a hard sell to the UN or the general public. (read Israel as an international pariah.)
ANGEL
"And for Scottie's Solution the closest that I agree with that is if The West Bank becomes part of Jordan and Gaza becomes part of Egypt."
- Hmm geographically speaking unless we are going to redraw Jordan’s boarders that would be the most practical. but then again its not as if west bank and Gaza were going to be properly joined together.
"Therefore approx. 2,000,000 Palestinians become citizens of Jordan and the approx 300,000 Settlers either become citizens of Jordan or immigrate to Israel or live in Jordan on work visas with an Israeli Passport."
Yes exactly. Although I might want to shift the boarders a little so as to minimize the problem related to that. Maybe a period in which people are encouraged to move themselves by policy or money etc there are lots of ways this could be minimized. Then all Jordan has to do is to keep the terrorists under control and make sure any jews that are left have their human rights protected.
"" Hmm geographically speaking unless we are going to redraw Jordan’s boarders that would be the most practical. but then again its not as if west bank and Gaza were going to be properly joined together.""(Scottie)
For West Bank to be Part of Jordan and Gaza to be Part of Egypt would be my THIRD choice on a Solution.
West Bank and Gaza would not need to be joined...
WestBank is already next to Jordan
Gaza is already next to Egypt, but I do not think either Jordan or Egypt would agree to this, which is why I am for the Two State Solution (The Wonderful Road Map with flaws)....
Possible Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
My SECOND choice for a reasonable option would be One State with a new neutral name like the Country of Seaside or whatever, where everyone including the Palestinians have equal rights, where there is a Constitution similer to that of the U.S.A. There fore a country where there are Jews, Christians and Muslims or even Athiest, and where you could have a Synagogue on one corner of a street a Christian Church on another Corner and a Mosque on a third where freedom of and from religion could be practiced.
""you have no case for Palestinian statehood other than trite comparisons to cases of other countries and nations, which cannot alter the inability of a prospective Palestinian state to sustain itself.""(Critical Thinker)
If Israel can just decide to become a State in 1948 with only 650,000 Jewish People (This number was taken from the Book:
Original Sins (page 201)
Reflections on the History of Zionism and Israel
By Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi
Olive Branch Press, New York, N.Y.)
Why is it that the Palestine cannot become a State with some 3,500,000 People in 2003???
And I have said more than once that I am not the only person in this world for the Two State Solution...Therefore the Road Map endorsed by the U.S., U.N., E.U., and Russia not exactly unimportant entities........
For West Bank to be Part of Jordan and Gaza to be Part of Egypt would be my THIRD choice on a Solution.
West Bank and Gaza would not need to be joined...
WestBank is already next to Jordan
Gaza is already next to Egypt, but I do not think either Jordan or Egypt would agree to this, which is why I am for the Two State Solution (The Wonderful Road Map with flaws)....
Possible Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
My SECOND choice for a reasonable option would be One State with a new neutral name like the Country of Seaside or whatever, where everyone including the Palestinians have equal rights, where there is a Constitution similer to that of the U.S.A. There fore a country where there are Jews, Christians and Muslims or even Athiest, and where you could have a Synagogue on one corner of a street a Christian Church on another Corner and a Mosque on a third where freedom of and from religion could be practiced.
""you have no case for Palestinian statehood other than trite comparisons to cases of other countries and nations, which cannot alter the inability of a prospective Palestinian state to sustain itself.""(Critical Thinker)
If Israel can just decide to become a State in 1948 with only 650,000 Jewish People (This number was taken from the Book:
Original Sins (page 201)
Reflections on the History of Zionism and Israel
By Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi
Olive Branch Press, New York, N.Y.)
Why is it that the Palestine cannot become a State with some 3,500,000 People in 2003???
And I have said more than once that I am not the only person in this world for the Two State Solution...Therefore the Road Map endorsed by the U.S., U.N., E.U., and Russia not exactly unimportant entities........
Of course, Angel wants a two-state solution quickly. I mean, the people of Palestine have been waiting, oh, hell, what? Fifty plus years?
,
In 1947 when the UN partitioned the part of the Palestinian mandate that was no already Trans Jordan, the Arabs refused to create their state, the Jews did. So "waiting 50 years" is not quite accurate.
still waiting for your visit...
as the time passes my anticipation builds, when will I hear from him? as I watch my curser slowly pulsing on the screen my mind drifts the conversations of past
and the forbidden topics we explored.........
the anticipation is almost too much!
as the time passes my anticipation builds, when will I hear from him? as I watch my curser slowly pulsing on the screen my mind drifts the conversations of past
and the forbidden topics we explored.........
the anticipation is almost too much!
Amused, yes. Impressed, no. This was not posted by me.
Who are the Palestinians?
Who are the Palestinians?
~By Hal Lindsey
© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com
One of the most misunderstood issues today is the question of "Who are the Palestinians"? The truth about this matter has been so deliberately obscured that even to raise the question will seem strange to most readers.
In my book, "The Everlasting Hatred, the Roots of Jihad," I trace the history of the people now being called the "Palestinians." The land of Israel became known as Palestine after the Roman destruction of Israel in A.D. 70. It was ruled by many different invaders for the following 19 centuries.
In the 7th century, the Muslims took control of Palestine for the first time. From A.D. 635 until 1917, the Muslims ruled it, with only a few interruptions by the European Crusaders. During that span of time, the land was reduced to total desolation. Many people who traveled the land in the 19th century remarked on the fact that Palestine was as desolate as the moon and very few people lived there.
In 1867, Mark Twain remarked about his visit to the Holy Land in his book, "The Innocents Abroad." He lamented, "Stirring scenes occur in the valley [of Jezreel] no more. There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent – not for 30 miles in either direction. There are two or three small clusters of Bedouin tents, but not a single permanent habitation. One may ride 10 miles hereabouts and not see 10 human beings."
By all eyewitness accounts of that era, Palestine was a total desolation. There were virtually no trees and no people. Because of lack of trees, the weather changed and it rarely ever rained. The irrigation systems of the once fertile valleys were all destroyed, rendering most areas into malaria-ridden swamps. The terraces of the mountainsides were torn down, causing terrible erosion that left only barren rocks. This was the condition of Palestine by the beginning of the 19th century.
It was at this time that Jews began to flee severe persecutions in Russia and Eastern Europe. In the mid-1800s, some Jews came to Palestine and, with the generous aid of some successful Jews like the Rothschilds, began to buy property from Muslim Ottoman Turks. The Muslims thought the land was worthless anyway, so they sold it to the "dumb Jews" for extremely inflated prices.
To everyone's amazement, the Jews were very successful at reclaiming the land. Many of them died from malaria and the rigorous life the work demanded, but they performed an agricultural miracle that made the land very productive again. As a result of their success, poor migrant workers from the surrounding Muslim countries began to flood in to work for the Jews. The Jews literally became victims of their own success – almost all of the people calling themselves "Palestinians" today are the descendants of those migrant workers.
Much more is said and documented on this subject in my book. But the main point is this: The Muslims have repeatedly shown they understand these things. Since they know that the so-called "Palestinians" are not a homogeneous people, but rather a mixed conglomerate of workers with no cohesive organizational or political skills, they have repeatedly not given them a state.
When the Hashemite Tribe, who were rulers over Mecca and Medina for centuries, were driven out by the Saudis, the British gave them control over the vastly greater numbers of "migrant workers" in Trans Jordan. The British said this would be, in effect, "The State of Palestine." Instead, the Hashemites, who make up only about 20 percent of the population, turned it into their own kingdom and called it the Kingdom of Jordan.
When the Jordanians and Egyptians controlled the so-called West Bank and the Gaza Strip for 19 years (1948 to 1967), there was never a thought of giving the disorganized mass of "migrant workers" a state. Why? Because they knew there was no cohesive, homogeneous people known as "Palestinians."
The current efforts of Jordan and Egypt (and all the rest of the Muslim Middle East nations) to give these same people a state is clearly a ploy to get a foothold inside Israel. It is a strategic accommodation to establish a base from which the final assault against Israel can be made. What they couldn't do militarily is now being facilitated through the United States and the E.U.
Muslims will never accept a permanent presence of infidels in what they claim is sacred Islamic soil. Especially Jewish infidels for which the Koran reserves its most vehement condemnations. In their minds, the Koran and Allah will not let them accept Jews in what they view as their third holiest site.
The United States had better learn these things, or we will find ourselves guilty of facilitating the destruction of God's people, to whom the Word of God says the land belongs forever. God will not let that happen, but He will certainly judge those who have any part in trying to do it.
God warned: "Therefore thus says the Lord God: 'Surely I have spoken in My burning jealousy against the rest of the nations and against all Edom [Arabs], who took MY LAND to themselves as a possession, with whole-hearted joy and spiteful minds, in order to plunder its open country ... But you, O mountains of Israel, you shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to MY PEOPLE ISRAEL, for they are about to come.'"
Who are the Palestinians?
~By Hal Lindsey
© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com
One of the most misunderstood issues today is the question of "Who are the Palestinians"? The truth about this matter has been so deliberately obscured that even to raise the question will seem strange to most readers.
In my book, "The Everlasting Hatred, the Roots of Jihad," I trace the history of the people now being called the "Palestinians." The land of Israel became known as Palestine after the Roman destruction of Israel in A.D. 70. It was ruled by many different invaders for the following 19 centuries.
In the 7th century, the Muslims took control of Palestine for the first time. From A.D. 635 until 1917, the Muslims ruled it, with only a few interruptions by the European Crusaders. During that span of time, the land was reduced to total desolation. Many people who traveled the land in the 19th century remarked on the fact that Palestine was as desolate as the moon and very few people lived there.
In 1867, Mark Twain remarked about his visit to the Holy Land in his book, "The Innocents Abroad." He lamented, "Stirring scenes occur in the valley [of Jezreel] no more. There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent – not for 30 miles in either direction. There are two or three small clusters of Bedouin tents, but not a single permanent habitation. One may ride 10 miles hereabouts and not see 10 human beings."
By all eyewitness accounts of that era, Palestine was a total desolation. There were virtually no trees and no people. Because of lack of trees, the weather changed and it rarely ever rained. The irrigation systems of the once fertile valleys were all destroyed, rendering most areas into malaria-ridden swamps. The terraces of the mountainsides were torn down, causing terrible erosion that left only barren rocks. This was the condition of Palestine by the beginning of the 19th century.
It was at this time that Jews began to flee severe persecutions in Russia and Eastern Europe. In the mid-1800s, some Jews came to Palestine and, with the generous aid of some successful Jews like the Rothschilds, began to buy property from Muslim Ottoman Turks. The Muslims thought the land was worthless anyway, so they sold it to the "dumb Jews" for extremely inflated prices.
To everyone's amazement, the Jews were very successful at reclaiming the land. Many of them died from malaria and the rigorous life the work demanded, but they performed an agricultural miracle that made the land very productive again. As a result of their success, poor migrant workers from the surrounding Muslim countries began to flood in to work for the Jews. The Jews literally became victims of their own success – almost all of the people calling themselves "Palestinians" today are the descendants of those migrant workers.
Much more is said and documented on this subject in my book. But the main point is this: The Muslims have repeatedly shown they understand these things. Since they know that the so-called "Palestinians" are not a homogeneous people, but rather a mixed conglomerate of workers with no cohesive organizational or political skills, they have repeatedly not given them a state.
When the Hashemite Tribe, who were rulers over Mecca and Medina for centuries, were driven out by the Saudis, the British gave them control over the vastly greater numbers of "migrant workers" in Trans Jordan. The British said this would be, in effect, "The State of Palestine." Instead, the Hashemites, who make up only about 20 percent of the population, turned it into their own kingdom and called it the Kingdom of Jordan.
When the Jordanians and Egyptians controlled the so-called West Bank and the Gaza Strip for 19 years (1948 to 1967), there was never a thought of giving the disorganized mass of "migrant workers" a state. Why? Because they knew there was no cohesive, homogeneous people known as "Palestinians."
The current efforts of Jordan and Egypt (and all the rest of the Muslim Middle East nations) to give these same people a state is clearly a ploy to get a foothold inside Israel. It is a strategic accommodation to establish a base from which the final assault against Israel can be made. What they couldn't do militarily is now being facilitated through the United States and the E.U.
Muslims will never accept a permanent presence of infidels in what they claim is sacred Islamic soil. Especially Jewish infidels for which the Koran reserves its most vehement condemnations. In their minds, the Koran and Allah will not let them accept Jews in what they view as their third holiest site.
The United States had better learn these things, or we will find ourselves guilty of facilitating the destruction of God's people, to whom the Word of God says the land belongs forever. God will not let that happen, but He will certainly judge those who have any part in trying to do it.
God warned: "Therefore thus says the Lord God: 'Surely I have spoken in My burning jealousy against the rest of the nations and against all Edom [Arabs], who took MY LAND to themselves as a possession, with whole-hearted joy and spiteful minds, in order to plunder its open country ... But you, O mountains of Israel, you shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to MY PEOPLE ISRAEL, for they are about to come.'"
So the grandparents of the Jews living in the Israel that became a State in 1948 came from Russia, Germany and other European Nations…..even though most of the people living in Israel now have been born there….
So the grandparents of the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and Israel were worker who came from surrounding areas, but like the Jews the Palestinians who are living there now were born their and know this area as their homes..
For that matter the Grandparent of some of the People living in the U.S. now came from all around the world, but the children and grandchildren of these people were born and now live in the U.S…..Are we going to send some of them back to where their grandparents came from because some insane people in the U.S. may say they should be sent back from where their grandparents came from????
The Jews who were Russian, or German, etc decided to call themselves Israelis, That is fine!!!
The Arabs both Christians and Muslim who live in the region decided to call themselves Palestinians, Nothing wrong with that is there???
If Israel can decide to become a state in 1948 with only around 650,000 Jewish People in 1948….
What is wrong with the Palestinians having a State for their approx. 3,500,000 People in 2003?? And on only 22% of the land that is now Israel, West Bank and Gaza???
Some common sense Please!!!
Who do we blame for this conflict???
Who is killing Whom, to find out: and please read the statement under the graph...
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
For a Possible Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
For Details to this Possible Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=56156&group=webcast
So the grandparents of the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and Israel were worker who came from surrounding areas, but like the Jews the Palestinians who are living there now were born their and know this area as their homes..
For that matter the Grandparent of some of the People living in the U.S. now came from all around the world, but the children and grandchildren of these people were born and now live in the U.S…..Are we going to send some of them back to where their grandparents came from because some insane people in the U.S. may say they should be sent back from where their grandparents came from????
The Jews who were Russian, or German, etc decided to call themselves Israelis, That is fine!!!
The Arabs both Christians and Muslim who live in the region decided to call themselves Palestinians, Nothing wrong with that is there???
If Israel can decide to become a state in 1948 with only around 650,000 Jewish People in 1948….
What is wrong with the Palestinians having a State for their approx. 3,500,000 People in 2003?? And on only 22% of the land that is now Israel, West Bank and Gaza???
Some common sense Please!!!
Who do we blame for this conflict???
Who is killing Whom, to find out: and please read the statement under the graph...
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
For a Possible Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
For Details to this Possible Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=56156&group=webcast
Exactly the blame game gets us nowhere.
and if your born there I dont care where your grandparents are from.
and if your born there I dont care where your grandparents are from.
So the grandparents of the Jews living in the Israel that became a State in 1948 came from Russia, Germany and other Nations…..even though many or most of the people living in Israel now have been born there….
So the grandparents of many of the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and Israel were worker who came from surrounding areas, but like the Jews, many of the Palestinians who are living there now were born their and know this area as their homes..
For that matter the Grandparents of some of the People living in the U.S. now came from all around the world, but the children and grandchildren of these people were born and now live in the U.S…..Are we going to send some of them back to where their grandparents came from because some insane people in the U.S. may say they should be sent back from where their grandparents came from????
The Jews who were Russian, or German, etc. decided to MOVE TO ISRAEL AND CREATE OR BUTRESS THEIR RENEWED POLITICAL INDEPENDENCE WHICH WAS REGAINED AFTER HAVING LOST IT SOME 2000 YEARS BEFORE, so it was appropreate for them to call themselves Israelis, that is fine!!!
The Arabs both Christians and Muslim who live in the region decided to call themselves Palestinians, that's wrong alright!!!
If Israel can decide to become a state in 1948 with only around 650,000 Jewish People in 1948….
What is wrong with the Palestinians having a State for their approx. 3,500,000 People in 2003?? And on only 22% of the land that is now Israel, West Bank and Gaza???
It's very wrong and I know why!!! Some common sense Please!!!
Who do we blame for this conflict???
Who is murdering Whom, to find out: and please read the statement under the graph...
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html The Palestinians murder Jews, the Jews hardly murder Palestinians...
For an Impossible Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
For Details on this Impossible Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=56156&group=webcast
So the grandparents of many of the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and Israel were worker who came from surrounding areas, but like the Jews, many of the Palestinians who are living there now were born their and know this area as their homes..
For that matter the Grandparents of some of the People living in the U.S. now came from all around the world, but the children and grandchildren of these people were born and now live in the U.S…..Are we going to send some of them back to where their grandparents came from because some insane people in the U.S. may say they should be sent back from where their grandparents came from????
The Jews who were Russian, or German, etc. decided to MOVE TO ISRAEL AND CREATE OR BUTRESS THEIR RENEWED POLITICAL INDEPENDENCE WHICH WAS REGAINED AFTER HAVING LOST IT SOME 2000 YEARS BEFORE, so it was appropreate for them to call themselves Israelis, that is fine!!!
The Arabs both Christians and Muslim who live in the region decided to call themselves Palestinians, that's wrong alright!!!
If Israel can decide to become a state in 1948 with only around 650,000 Jewish People in 1948….
What is wrong with the Palestinians having a State for their approx. 3,500,000 People in 2003?? And on only 22% of the land that is now Israel, West Bank and Gaza???
It's very wrong and I know why!!! Some common sense Please!!!
Who do we blame for this conflict???
Who is murdering Whom, to find out: and please read the statement under the graph...
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html The Palestinians murder Jews, the Jews hardly murder Palestinians...
For an Impossible Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
For Details on this Impossible Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=56156&group=webcast
to all.
I didn't post the message above.
Forgive me, I'm having a rough time lately.
I'm aware I have no monopoly on the truth, nor am I always capable of facing "the truth".
I didn't post the message above.
Forgive me, I'm having a rough time lately.
I'm aware I have no monopoly on the truth, nor am I always capable of facing "the truth".
>to all.
>I didn't post the message above.
This refers to a comment that was removed. Stop forging other people's names. They will only be removed as soon as we hear about it.
If somebody forges your name on a comment, tell us immediately. We'll remove it. We can be reached at:
imc-sf-editorial [at] lists.indymedia.org
>I didn't post the message above.
This refers to a comment that was removed. Stop forging other people's names. They will only be removed as soon as we hear about it.
If somebody forges your name on a comment, tell us immediately. We'll remove it. We can be reached at:
imc-sf-editorial [at] lists.indymedia.org
""Peace doesn't equal a Palestinian State now..
by ANGEL Tuesday August 26, 2003 at 05:16 AM
I apologize
by ANGEL Wednesday August 27, 2003 at 12:08 AM""(not the real ANGEL, posted by a coward who is afraid to use his/her own handle)
Correction:
Peace equals a Palestinian State now..
by ANGEL Sunday August 24, 2003 at 09:56 PM
So the grandparents of the Jews living in the Israel that became a State in 1948 came from Russia, Germany and other European Nations…..even though most of the people living in Israel now have been born there….
So the grandparents of the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and Israel were worker who came from surrounding areas, but like the Jews the Palestinians who are living there now were born their and know this area as their homes..
For that matter the Grandparent of some of the People living in the U.S. now came from all around the world, but the children and grandchildren of these people were born and now live in the U.S…..Are we going to send some of them back to where their grandparents came from because some insane people in the U.S. may say they should be sent back from where their grandparents came from????
The Jews who were Russian, or German, etc decided to call themselves Israelis, That is fine!!!
The Arabs both Christians and Muslim who live in the region decided to call themselves Palestinians, Nothing wrong with that is there???
If Israel can decide to become a state in 1948 with only around 650,000 Jewish People in 1948….
What is wrong with the Palestinians having a State for their approx. 3,500,000 People in 2003?? And on only 22% of the land that is now Israel, West Bank and Gaza???
Some common sense Please!!!
Who do we blame for this conflict???
Who is killing Whom, to find out: and please read the statement under the graph...
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
For a Possible Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
For Details to this Possible Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=56156&group=webcast
by ANGEL Tuesday August 26, 2003 at 05:16 AM
I apologize
by ANGEL Wednesday August 27, 2003 at 12:08 AM""(not the real ANGEL, posted by a coward who is afraid to use his/her own handle)
Correction:
Peace equals a Palestinian State now..
by ANGEL Sunday August 24, 2003 at 09:56 PM
So the grandparents of the Jews living in the Israel that became a State in 1948 came from Russia, Germany and other European Nations…..even though most of the people living in Israel now have been born there….
So the grandparents of the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and Israel were worker who came from surrounding areas, but like the Jews the Palestinians who are living there now were born their and know this area as their homes..
For that matter the Grandparent of some of the People living in the U.S. now came from all around the world, but the children and grandchildren of these people were born and now live in the U.S…..Are we going to send some of them back to where their grandparents came from because some insane people in the U.S. may say they should be sent back from where their grandparents came from????
The Jews who were Russian, or German, etc decided to call themselves Israelis, That is fine!!!
The Arabs both Christians and Muslim who live in the region decided to call themselves Palestinians, Nothing wrong with that is there???
If Israel can decide to become a state in 1948 with only around 650,000 Jewish People in 1948….
What is wrong with the Palestinians having a State for their approx. 3,500,000 People in 2003?? And on only 22% of the land that is now Israel, West Bank and Gaza???
Some common sense Please!!!
Who do we blame for this conflict???
Who is killing Whom, to find out: and please read the statement under the graph...
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
For a Possible Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
For Details to this Possible Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=56156&group=webcast
""Peace equals a Palestinian State now..
by ANGEL Sunday August 24, 2003 at 09:56 PM
ANGEL Correction
by ANGEL Thursday August 28, 2003 at 12:26 AM ""(not the real ANGEL, posted by a coward who is afraid to use his/her own handle)
Correction:
Peace doesn't equal a Palestinian State now..
by ANGEL Tuesday August 26, 2003 at 05:16 AM
So the grandparents of the Jews living in the Israel that became a State in 1948 came from Russia, Germany and other Nations…..even though many or most of the people living in Israel now have been born there….
So the grandparents of many of the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and Israel were worker who came from surrounding areas, but like the Jews, many of the Palestinians who are living there now were born their and know this area as their homes..
For that matter the Grandparents of some of the People living in the U.S. now came from all around the world, but the children and grandchildren of these people were born and now live in the U.S…..Are we going to send some of them back to where their grandparents came from because some insane people in the U.S. may say they should be sent back from where their grandparents came from????
The Jews who were Russian, or German, etc. decided to MOVE TO ISRAEL AND CREATE OR BUTRESS THEIR RENEWED POLITICAL INDEPENDENCE WHICH WAS REGAINED AFTER HAVING LOST IT SOME 2000 YEARS BEFORE, so it was appropreate for them to call themselves Israelis, that is fine!!!
The Arabs both Christians and Muslim who live in the region decided to call themselves Palestinians, that's wrong alright!!!
If Israel can decide to become a state in 1948 with only around 650,000 Jewish People in 1948….
What is wrong with the Palestinians having a State for their approx. 3,500,000 People in 2003?? And on only 22% of the land that is now Israel, West Bank and Gaza???
It's very wrong and I know why!!! Some common sense Please!!!
Who do we blame for this conflict???
Who is murdering Whom, to find out: and please read the statement under the graph...
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
The Palestinians murder Jews, the Jews almost never murder Palestinians...
For an Impossible Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
For Details on this Impossible Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=56156&group=webcast
by ANGEL Sunday August 24, 2003 at 09:56 PM
ANGEL Correction
by ANGEL Thursday August 28, 2003 at 12:26 AM ""(not the real ANGEL, posted by a coward who is afraid to use his/her own handle)
Correction:
Peace doesn't equal a Palestinian State now..
by ANGEL Tuesday August 26, 2003 at 05:16 AM
So the grandparents of the Jews living in the Israel that became a State in 1948 came from Russia, Germany and other Nations…..even though many or most of the people living in Israel now have been born there….
So the grandparents of many of the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and Israel were worker who came from surrounding areas, but like the Jews, many of the Palestinians who are living there now were born their and know this area as their homes..
For that matter the Grandparents of some of the People living in the U.S. now came from all around the world, but the children and grandchildren of these people were born and now live in the U.S…..Are we going to send some of them back to where their grandparents came from because some insane people in the U.S. may say they should be sent back from where their grandparents came from????
The Jews who were Russian, or German, etc. decided to MOVE TO ISRAEL AND CREATE OR BUTRESS THEIR RENEWED POLITICAL INDEPENDENCE WHICH WAS REGAINED AFTER HAVING LOST IT SOME 2000 YEARS BEFORE, so it was appropreate for them to call themselves Israelis, that is fine!!!
The Arabs both Christians and Muslim who live in the region decided to call themselves Palestinians, that's wrong alright!!!
If Israel can decide to become a state in 1948 with only around 650,000 Jewish People in 1948….
What is wrong with the Palestinians having a State for their approx. 3,500,000 People in 2003?? And on only 22% of the land that is now Israel, West Bank and Gaza???
It's very wrong and I know why!!! Some common sense Please!!!
Who do we blame for this conflict???
Who is murdering Whom, to find out: and please read the statement under the graph...
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
The Palestinians murder Jews, the Jews almost never murder Palestinians...
For an Impossible Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
For Details on this Impossible Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=56156&group=webcast
-- If you are so sure that "Palestine, the country, goes back through most of recorded history", I expect you to be able to answer a few basic questions about that country of Palestine:
When was it founded and by whom?
What were its borders?
What was its capital?
What were its major cities?
What constituted the basis of its economy?
What was its form of government?
Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat?
Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?
What was the language of the country of Palestine?
What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine?
What was the name of its currency? Choose any date in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, Japanese yen, or Chinese yuan on that date.
And, finally, since there is no such country today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?
You are lamenting the "low sinking" of "once proud" nation. Please tell me, when exactly was that "nation" proud and what was it so proud of?
And here is the least sarcastic question of all: If the people you mistakenly call "Palestinians" are anything but generic Arabs collected from all over -- or thrown out of -- the Arab world, if they really have a genuine ethnic identity that gives them right for self-determination, why did they never try to become independent until Arabs suffered their devastating defeat in the Six Day War?
I hope you avoid the temptation to trace the modern day "Palestinians" to the Biblical Philistines: substituting etymology* for history won't work here. The truth should be obvious to everyone who wants to know it. Arab countries have never abandoned the dream of destroying Israel; they still cherish it today. Having time and again failed to achieve their evil goal with military means, they decided to fight Israel by proxy. For that purpose, they created a terrorist organization, cynically called it "Palestinian people" and installed it in Gaza, Judea, and Samaria. How else can you explain the refusal by Jordan and Egypt to unconditionally accept back the "West Bank" and Gaza, respectively?
The fact is, Arabs populating Gaza, Judea, and Samaria have much less claim to nationhood than that Indian tribe that successfully emerged in Connecticut with the purpose of starting a tax-exempt casino: at least that tribe had a constructive goal that motivated them. The so-called "Palestinians" have only one motivation: the destruction of Israel, and in my book that is not sufficient to consider them a "nation" -- or anything else except what they really are: a terrorist organization that will one day be dismantled.
In fact, there is only one way to achieve piece in the Middle East. Arab countries must acknowledge and accept their defeat in their war against Israel and, as the losing side should, pay Israel reparations for the more than 50 years of devastation they have visited on it. The most appropriate form of such reparations would be the removal of their terrorist organization from the land of Israel and accepting Israel's ancient sovereignty over Gaza, Judea, and Samaria.
That will mark the end of the Palestinian people. What are you saying again was its beginning?
When was it founded and by whom?
What were its borders?
What was its capital?
What were its major cities?
What constituted the basis of its economy?
What was its form of government?
Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat?
Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?
What was the language of the country of Palestine?
What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine?
What was the name of its currency? Choose any date in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, Japanese yen, or Chinese yuan on that date.
And, finally, since there is no such country today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?
You are lamenting the "low sinking" of "once proud" nation. Please tell me, when exactly was that "nation" proud and what was it so proud of?
And here is the least sarcastic question of all: If the people you mistakenly call "Palestinians" are anything but generic Arabs collected from all over -- or thrown out of -- the Arab world, if they really have a genuine ethnic identity that gives them right for self-determination, why did they never try to become independent until Arabs suffered their devastating defeat in the Six Day War?
I hope you avoid the temptation to trace the modern day "Palestinians" to the Biblical Philistines: substituting etymology* for history won't work here. The truth should be obvious to everyone who wants to know it. Arab countries have never abandoned the dream of destroying Israel; they still cherish it today. Having time and again failed to achieve their evil goal with military means, they decided to fight Israel by proxy. For that purpose, they created a terrorist organization, cynically called it "Palestinian people" and installed it in Gaza, Judea, and Samaria. How else can you explain the refusal by Jordan and Egypt to unconditionally accept back the "West Bank" and Gaza, respectively?
The fact is, Arabs populating Gaza, Judea, and Samaria have much less claim to nationhood than that Indian tribe that successfully emerged in Connecticut with the purpose of starting a tax-exempt casino: at least that tribe had a constructive goal that motivated them. The so-called "Palestinians" have only one motivation: the destruction of Israel, and in my book that is not sufficient to consider them a "nation" -- or anything else except what they really are: a terrorist organization that will one day be dismantled.
In fact, there is only one way to achieve piece in the Middle East. Arab countries must acknowledge and accept their defeat in their war against Israel and, as the losing side should, pay Israel reparations for the more than 50 years of devastation they have visited on it. The most appropriate form of such reparations would be the removal of their terrorist organization from the land of Israel and accepting Israel's ancient sovereignty over Gaza, Judea, and Samaria.
That will mark the end of the Palestinian people. What are you saying again was its beginning?
"When was it founded and by whom?
What were its borders?
What was its capital?
What were its major cities?
What constituted the basis of its economy?
What was its form of government? "
You sound like some neo-nazi denying the Holocaust. OF COURSE PALESTINIANS EXIST.
Even Saddam Hussein would not have made such racist statements about the Kurds. What's the capital of Kurdistan, when was it founded etc... Just because a people have always been under foreign rule doesn’t mean that they don’t exist!!!! Next thing I know you will be saying that the Kurds couldn’t have been gassed by Saddam since Kurdistan has never existed!!
The part that makes racist statements like those presented above work is the fact that before 150 years ago, nationalism didn’t really exist in its present form. Before 150 years ago, there was no Germany, no Italy and the Middle East and even places like Greece and Yugoslavia were under Ottoman rule.
Does the lack of the existence of Italy as a united state before the 1860 mean that Italians don’t exist? I mean who the hell are Italian Americans? I mean many came to the US after 1860 but many didn’t, so they never really were Italian I guess. And you can’t even claim that the commonality was the language since many dialects were spoken in the kingdoms that eventually became Italy. Same goes for Serbs, Chechs etc.. Serbia exited very briefly hundreds of years ago before it fell under Ottoman rule, but it hadn’t existed that long before the Ottomans took it over.
History is strange. Before the printing press groups broke apart and new languages formed at a very fast rate. Empires existed in various areas but you could never really call the empires nations (although sometimes an Empire would be named after some local tribe that ruled it) Only a small percentage of those living in the Ottoman Empire (or even modern Turkey) were Ottoman Turks. Even a small area like Italy is a conglomeration of groups that can trace some ancestry back to the Etruscans but can also trace ancestry back to Lombards, Greeks, Huns, and other various groups that invaded and left behind population.
What is now Israel, the West Bank and Gaza is an area that has been populated for thousands of years. Large cities have exited in this area longer than most other parts of the planet (except for Iraq and Egypt). Cities like Jerusalem, Nablus, Gaza… have been on maps continuously from the time of the ancient Greeks to the present. Different rulers took over the area and various groups mixed and changed religions. Some Palestinians are probably descendents of the Jews mentioned in the Bible, others could have moved into the area under Greek rule, or Roman rule or under the various Sultanates etc… Would the great great great grandfather of a Palestinian have considered themselves a Palestinian? Maybe but it doesn’t really matter, if they had called themselves a Gazan or Arab what does that have to do with anything? Many Lithuanians or Latvians might have called themselves Soviets when the USSR existed but that doesn’t mean one can ethically cleanse Lithuania or Latvia.
Palestinians exist. There are several million people who consider themselves Palestinian. Many are now living under an occupation that denies them the right to vote or live securely. Many Palestinians were kicked out of their houses in the late 1940s and have been living in refugee camps since that time (Israels refusal to let them return while accepting millions of emigrants from Europe and Russia is a violation of the laws of war and resembles Molosovics ethnic cleansing policies). People want to return home and have some sense of self rule (perhaps one multiethnic state perhaps two), it’s a rather simple demand but one that Israel refuses to grant.
The strange rhetoric about Palestinians not existing or how Israel was not populated (“A Land Without A People For A People Without A Land”) is a sick racist form of propaganda intended to dehumanize Palestinians and justify ethnic cleansing. Denying the existence of those one wishes to disappear is a tactic reminiscent of Goebbels .
What were its borders?
What was its capital?
What were its major cities?
What constituted the basis of its economy?
What was its form of government? "
You sound like some neo-nazi denying the Holocaust. OF COURSE PALESTINIANS EXIST.
Even Saddam Hussein would not have made such racist statements about the Kurds. What's the capital of Kurdistan, when was it founded etc... Just because a people have always been under foreign rule doesn’t mean that they don’t exist!!!! Next thing I know you will be saying that the Kurds couldn’t have been gassed by Saddam since Kurdistan has never existed!!
The part that makes racist statements like those presented above work is the fact that before 150 years ago, nationalism didn’t really exist in its present form. Before 150 years ago, there was no Germany, no Italy and the Middle East and even places like Greece and Yugoslavia were under Ottoman rule.
Does the lack of the existence of Italy as a united state before the 1860 mean that Italians don’t exist? I mean who the hell are Italian Americans? I mean many came to the US after 1860 but many didn’t, so they never really were Italian I guess. And you can’t even claim that the commonality was the language since many dialects were spoken in the kingdoms that eventually became Italy. Same goes for Serbs, Chechs etc.. Serbia exited very briefly hundreds of years ago before it fell under Ottoman rule, but it hadn’t existed that long before the Ottomans took it over.
History is strange. Before the printing press groups broke apart and new languages formed at a very fast rate. Empires existed in various areas but you could never really call the empires nations (although sometimes an Empire would be named after some local tribe that ruled it) Only a small percentage of those living in the Ottoman Empire (or even modern Turkey) were Ottoman Turks. Even a small area like Italy is a conglomeration of groups that can trace some ancestry back to the Etruscans but can also trace ancestry back to Lombards, Greeks, Huns, and other various groups that invaded and left behind population.
What is now Israel, the West Bank and Gaza is an area that has been populated for thousands of years. Large cities have exited in this area longer than most other parts of the planet (except for Iraq and Egypt). Cities like Jerusalem, Nablus, Gaza… have been on maps continuously from the time of the ancient Greeks to the present. Different rulers took over the area and various groups mixed and changed religions. Some Palestinians are probably descendents of the Jews mentioned in the Bible, others could have moved into the area under Greek rule, or Roman rule or under the various Sultanates etc… Would the great great great grandfather of a Palestinian have considered themselves a Palestinian? Maybe but it doesn’t really matter, if they had called themselves a Gazan or Arab what does that have to do with anything? Many Lithuanians or Latvians might have called themselves Soviets when the USSR existed but that doesn’t mean one can ethically cleanse Lithuania or Latvia.
Palestinians exist. There are several million people who consider themselves Palestinian. Many are now living under an occupation that denies them the right to vote or live securely. Many Palestinians were kicked out of their houses in the late 1940s and have been living in refugee camps since that time (Israels refusal to let them return while accepting millions of emigrants from Europe and Russia is a violation of the laws of war and resembles Molosovics ethnic cleansing policies). People want to return home and have some sense of self rule (perhaps one multiethnic state perhaps two), it’s a rather simple demand but one that Israel refuses to grant.
The strange rhetoric about Palestinians not existing or how Israel was not populated (“A Land Without A People For A People Without A Land”) is a sick racist form of propaganda intended to dehumanize Palestinians and justify ethnic cleansing. Denying the existence of those one wishes to disappear is a tactic reminiscent of Goebbels .
Alex asks some very interesting questions.
The next poster responds with numerous paragraphs and answers not a single question.
Alex: 1
IMC Israel bashers: 0
The next poster responds with numerous paragraphs and answers not a single question.
Alex: 1
IMC Israel bashers: 0
Alex asked questions that are far too LOGICAL and to-the-point. The guy who responded did so like a little child with lousy reading comprehension.
You can always tell the rabid Israel-haters from normal edcuated progress-wanting people, because they either (1) rant insane garbage about "the zionists," and also usually (2) Either intentionally miss points, or just change the subject, or make claims they're totally unable to back up, or take EXCEPTIONS to the rule and pretend that they just pointed out the rule.
You can always tell the rabid Israel-haters from normal edcuated progress-wanting people, because they either (1) rant insane garbage about "the zionists," and also usually (2) Either intentionally miss points, or just change the subject, or make claims they're totally unable to back up, or take EXCEPTIONS to the rule and pretend that they just pointed out the rule.
Angel, each thread now has the same paragraphs from you cut-and-pasted multiple times. It's really annoying.
""Sorry...ANGEL, The Real Correction
by ANGEL Thursday August 28, 2003 at 12:42 AM""(not the real Angel, was posted by a Coward who is afraid to use his/her own handle or How sad that he/she must be mentally deficient and cannot compose his/her own rebuttal to a posting.)
Correction:
Peace doesn't equal a Palestinian State now..
by ANGEL Tuesday August 26, 2003 at 05:16 AM
So the grandparents of the Jews living in the Israel that became a State in 1948 came from Russia, Germany and other Nations…..even though many or most of the people living in Israel now have been born there….
So the grandparents of many of the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and Israel were worker who came from surrounding areas, but like the Jews, many of the Palestinians who are living there now were born their and know this area as their homes..
For that matter the Grandparents of some of the People living in the U.S. now came from all around the world, but the children and grandchildren of these people were born and now live in the U.S…..Are we going to send some of them back to where their grandparents came from because some insane people in the U.S. may say they should be sent back from where their grandparents came from????
The Jews who were Russian, or German, etc. decided to MOVE TO ISRAEL AND CREATE OR BUTRESS THEIR RENEWED POLITICAL INDEPENDENCE WHICH WAS REGAINED AFTER HAVING LOST IT SOME 2000 YEARS BEFORE, so it was appropreate for them to call themselves Israelis, that is fine!!!
The Arabs both Christians and Muslim who live in the region decided to call themselves Palestinians, that's wrong alright!!!
If Israel can decide to become a state in 1948 with only around 650,000 Jewish People in 1948….
What is wrong with the Palestinians having a State for their approx. 3,500,000 People in 2003?? And on only 22% of the land that is now Israel, West Bank and Gaza???
It's very wrong and I know why!!! Some common sense Please!!!
Who do we blame for this conflict???
Who is murdering Whom, to find out: and please read the statement under the graph...
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html The Palestinians murder Jews, the Jews hardly murder Palestinians...
For an Impossible Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
For Details on this Impossible Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=56156&group=webcast
Before 1948 there was no modern day State of Israel.
If the Jewish People living in this area can choose to have a State in 1948...
Then why can The Palestinian People not be able to choose to have a State in 2003???
by ANGEL Thursday August 28, 2003 at 12:42 AM""(not the real Angel, was posted by a Coward who is afraid to use his/her own handle or How sad that he/she must be mentally deficient and cannot compose his/her own rebuttal to a posting.)
Correction:
Peace doesn't equal a Palestinian State now..
by ANGEL Tuesday August 26, 2003 at 05:16 AM
So the grandparents of the Jews living in the Israel that became a State in 1948 came from Russia, Germany and other Nations…..even though many or most of the people living in Israel now have been born there….
So the grandparents of many of the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and Israel were worker who came from surrounding areas, but like the Jews, many of the Palestinians who are living there now were born their and know this area as their homes..
For that matter the Grandparents of some of the People living in the U.S. now came from all around the world, but the children and grandchildren of these people were born and now live in the U.S…..Are we going to send some of them back to where their grandparents came from because some insane people in the U.S. may say they should be sent back from where their grandparents came from????
The Jews who were Russian, or German, etc. decided to MOVE TO ISRAEL AND CREATE OR BUTRESS THEIR RENEWED POLITICAL INDEPENDENCE WHICH WAS REGAINED AFTER HAVING LOST IT SOME 2000 YEARS BEFORE, so it was appropreate for them to call themselves Israelis, that is fine!!!
The Arabs both Christians and Muslim who live in the region decided to call themselves Palestinians, that's wrong alright!!!
If Israel can decide to become a state in 1948 with only around 650,000 Jewish People in 1948….
What is wrong with the Palestinians having a State for their approx. 3,500,000 People in 2003?? And on only 22% of the land that is now Israel, West Bank and Gaza???
It's very wrong and I know why!!! Some common sense Please!!!
Who do we blame for this conflict???
Who is murdering Whom, to find out: and please read the statement under the graph...
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html The Palestinians murder Jews, the Jews hardly murder Palestinians...
For an Impossible Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
For Details on this Impossible Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=56156&group=webcast
Before 1948 there was no modern day State of Israel.
If the Jewish People living in this area can choose to have a State in 1948...
Then why can The Palestinian People not be able to choose to have a State in 2003???
Sorry that an ANGEL Imposter insist on changing my posts so that they do not reflect my views and than uses my name....A solution would be a private pin added to the comment entry page that does not show in the articles and if the pin is not added to the entry page the Comment should not be posted because it is probably a hoax This would be a good idea for some other obvious reasons......
Preface: I did not post the above message. My imposture did...
""ANGEL Correction
by ANGEL Friday August 29, 2003 at 12:05 AM""(not the real Angel, was posted by a Coward who is afraid to use his/her own handle or How sad that he/she must be mentally deficient and cannot compose his/her own rebuttal to a posting.)
Correction:
Peace doesn't equal a Palestinian State now..
by ANGEL Tuesday August 26, 2003 at 05:16 AM
So the grandparents of the Jews living in the Israel that became a State in 1948 came from Russia, Germany and other Nations…..even though many or most of the people living in Israel now have been born there….
So the grandparents of many of the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and Israel were worker who came from surrounding areas, but like the Jews, many of the Palestinians who are living there now were born their and know this area as their homes..
For that matter the Grandparents of some of the People living in the U.S. now came from all around the world, but the children and grandchildren of these people were born and now live in the U.S…..Are we going to send some of them back to where their grandparents came from because some insane people in the U.S. may say they should be sent back from where their grandparents came from????
The Jews who were Russian, or German, etc. decided to move to Israel and create or butress their renewed political independence which was regained after having lost it some 2000 years before, so it was appropreate for them to call themselves Israelis, that is fine!!!
The Arabs both Christians and Muslim who live in the region decided to call themselves Palestinians, that's wrong alright!!!
If Israel can decide to become a state in 1948 with only around 650,000 Jewish People in 1948….
What is wrong with the Palestinians having a State for their approx. 3,500,000 People in 2003?? And on only 22% of the land that is now Israel, West Bank and Gaza???
It's very wrong and I know why!!! Some common sense Please!!!
Who do we blame for this conflict???
Who is murdering Whom, to find out: and please read the statement under the graph...
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
The Palestinians murder Jews, the Jews almost never murder Palestinians...
For an Impossible Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
For Details on this Impossible Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=56156&group=webcast
Before 1948 there was no modern day State of Israel.
If the Jewish People living in this area can choose to have a State in 1948...
Then why can The Palestinian People not be able to choose to have a State in 2003??? I know exavtly why they shouldn't have one!!!
""ANGEL Correction
by ANGEL Friday August 29, 2003 at 12:05 AM""(not the real Angel, was posted by a Coward who is afraid to use his/her own handle or How sad that he/she must be mentally deficient and cannot compose his/her own rebuttal to a posting.)
Correction:
Peace doesn't equal a Palestinian State now..
by ANGEL Tuesday August 26, 2003 at 05:16 AM
So the grandparents of the Jews living in the Israel that became a State in 1948 came from Russia, Germany and other Nations…..even though many or most of the people living in Israel now have been born there….
So the grandparents of many of the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and Israel were worker who came from surrounding areas, but like the Jews, many of the Palestinians who are living there now were born their and know this area as their homes..
For that matter the Grandparents of some of the People living in the U.S. now came from all around the world, but the children and grandchildren of these people were born and now live in the U.S…..Are we going to send some of them back to where their grandparents came from because some insane people in the U.S. may say they should be sent back from where their grandparents came from????
The Jews who were Russian, or German, etc. decided to move to Israel and create or butress their renewed political independence which was regained after having lost it some 2000 years before, so it was appropreate for them to call themselves Israelis, that is fine!!!
The Arabs both Christians and Muslim who live in the region decided to call themselves Palestinians, that's wrong alright!!!
If Israel can decide to become a state in 1948 with only around 650,000 Jewish People in 1948….
What is wrong with the Palestinians having a State for their approx. 3,500,000 People in 2003?? And on only 22% of the land that is now Israel, West Bank and Gaza???
It's very wrong and I know why!!! Some common sense Please!!!
Who do we blame for this conflict???
Who is murdering Whom, to find out: and please read the statement under the graph...
CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
The Palestinians murder Jews, the Jews almost never murder Palestinians...
For an Impossible Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1618616.php
For Details on this Impossible Solution:
CLICK HERE > http://nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=56156&group=webcast
Before 1948 there was no modern day State of Israel.
If the Jewish People living in this area can choose to have a State in 1948...
Then why can The Palestinian People not be able to choose to have a State in 2003??? I know exavtly why they shouldn't have one!!!
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