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Jeffrey Blankfort: The Israel Lobby and the Left: Uneasy Questions
The movement’s fear of alienating American Jews still holds sway over defending the rights of Palestinians
It was 1991 and Noam Chomsky had just finished a lecture in Berkeley on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and was taking questions from the audience. An Arab-American asked him to explain his position regarding the influence of America’s Israel lobby.
Chomsky replied that its reputation was generally exaggerated and like other lobbies, it only appears to be powerful when its position lines up with that of the "elites" who determine policy in Washington. Earlier in the evening, he had asserted that Israel received support from the United States as a reward for the services it provides as the US’s "cop-on-the -beat" in the Middle East.
Chomsky’s response drew a warm round of applause from members of the audience who were no doubt pleased to have American Jews absolved from any blame for Israel’s oppression of the Palestinians, then in the fourth year of their first intifada.
What is noteworthy is that Chomsky’s explanation for the financial and political support that the U.S. has provided Israel over the years is shared by what is generically known as the Israel lobby, and almost no one else.
Well, not quite "almost no one." Among the exceptions are the overwhelming majority of both houses of Congress and the mainstream media, and what is equally noteworthy, virtually the entire American Left, both ideological and idealistic, including the organizations ostensibly in the forefront of the fight for Palestinian rights.
That there is a meeting of the minds on this issue between supporters of Israel and the Left may help explain why the Palestine support movement within the United States has been an utter failure.
Chomsky’s position on the lobby had been established well before that Berkeley evening. In The Fateful Triangle, published in 1983, he assigned it little weight.
"The ‘special relationship’ is often attributed to domestic political pressures, in particular, the effectiveness of the American Jewish community in political life and influencing opinion. While there is some truth to this…it underestimates the scope of the ‘support for Israel,’ and… it overestimates the role of political pressure groups in decision making." (P.13)
A year earlier, Congress had applauded Israel’s devastating invasion of Lebanon, and then appropriated millions in additional aid to pay for the shells the Israeli military had expended. How much of this support was due to the legislators’ "support for Israel" and how much was due to pressures from the Israel lobby? It was a question that should have been examined by the Left at the time, but wasn’t. Twenty years later, Chomsky’s view is still the "conventional wisdom."
In 2001, the midst of the second intifada, he went further, arguing that "it is improper—particularly in the United States--to condemn ‘Israeli atrocities,’" and that the "‘US/Israel-Palestine’ conflict" is the more correct term, comparable with placing the proper responsibility for "Russian- backed crimes in Eastern Europe [and] US-backed crimes in Central America." And, to emphasize the point, he wrote, "IDF helicopters are US helicopters with Israeli pilots."
Prof. Stephen Zunes, who might be described as a Chomsky acolyte, would not only relieve Israeli Jews from any responsibility for their actions, he would have us believe they are the victims.
In "Tinderbox, his widely praised (by Chomsky and others) new book on the Middle East, Zunes faults the Arabs for "blaming Israel, Zionism, or the Jews for their problems." According to Zunes, the Israelis have been forced to assume a role similar to that assigned to members of the Jewish ghettos of Eastern Europe who performed services, mainly tax collection, as middlemen between the feudal lords and the serfs in earlier times In fact, writes Zunes, "US policy today corresponds with this historic anti-Semitism." Anyone comparing the relative power of the Jewish community in centuries past with what we find in the US today will find that statement absurd.
Jewish power has, in fact, been trumpeted by a number of Jewish writers, including one, J.J. Goldberg, editor of the Jewish weekly Forward, who wrote a book by that name in 1996. Any attempt, however, to explore the issue from a critical standpoint, inevitably leads to accusations of anti-Semitism, as Bill and Kathy Christison pointed out in their article on the role of right wing Jewish neo-cons in orchestrating US Middle East policy, in Counterpunch (1/25/3):
"Anyone who has the temerity to suggest any Israeli instigation of, or even involvement in, Bush administration war planning is inevitably labelled somewhere along the way as an anti-Semite. Just whisper the word "domination" anywhere in the vicinity of the word "Israel," as in "U.S.-Israeli domination of the Middle East" or "the U.S. drive to assure global domination and guarantee security for Israel," and some Leftist who otherwise opposes going to war against Iraq will trot out charges of promoting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the old czarist forgery that asserted a Jewish plan for world domination."
Presumably, this is what Zunes would call an example of the "latent anti-Semitism which has come to the fore with wildly exaggerated claims of Jewish economic and political power." And that it "is a na?ve assumption to believe that foreign policy decision making in the US is pluralistic enough so that any one lobbying group…can have so much influence."
This is hardly the first time that Jews have been in the upper echelons of power as Benjamin Ginsberg points out in "The Fatal Embrace: Jews and the State, but there has never been a situation anything like the present. This was how Ginzberg began his book:
"Since the 1960s, Jews have come to wield considerable influence in American economic, cultural, intellectual and political life. Jews played a central role in American finance during the 1980s, and they were among the chief beneficiaries of that decade’s corporate mergers and reorganizations. Today, though barely 2 % of the nation’s population is Jewish, close to half its billionaires are Jews. The chief executive officers of the three major television networks and the four largest film studios are Jews, as are the owners of the nation’s largest newspaper chain and the most influential single newspaper, the New York Times".
That was written in 1993, Today, ten years later, ardently pro- Israel American Jews are in positions of unprecedented influence within the United States and have assumed or been given decision making positions over virtually every segment of our culture and body politic. This is no secret conspiracy. Regular readers of the New York Times business section, which reports the comings and goings of the media tycoons, are certainly aware of it. Does this mean that each and every one is a pro-Israel zealot? Not necessarily, but when one compares the US media with its European counterparts in their respective coverage of the Israel-Palestine conflict, the extreme bias in favour of Israel on the part of the US media is immediately apparent.
This might explain Nation Columnist Eric Alterman’s discovery that "Europeans and Americans… differ profoundly in their views of the Israel/Palestine issue at both the elite and popular levels.. with Americans being far more sympathetic to Israel and the Europeans to the Palestinian cause…"
An additional component of Chomsky’s analysis is his insistence that it is the US, more than Israel, that is the "rejectionist state," implying that were it not for the US, Israel might long ago have abandoned the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestinians for a mini- state.
Essential to his analysis is the notion that every US administration since that of Eisenhower has attempted to advance Israel’s interests in line with America’s global and regional agenda. This is a far more complex issue than Chomsky leads us believe. Knowledgeable insiders, both critical and supportive of Israel, have described in detail major conflicts that have taken place between US and Israeli administrations over the years in which Israel, thanks to the diligence of its domestic lobby, prevailed.
In particular, Chomsky ignores or misinterprets the efforts made by every US president beginning with Richard Nixon to curb Israel’s expansionism, halt its settlement building and to obtain its withdrawal from the Occupied Territories.
"What happened to all those nice plans?" asked Israeli journalist and peace activist Uri Avnery.
"Israel’s governments … mobilized the collective power of US Jewry—which dominates Congress and the media to a large degree—against them. Faced by this vigorous opposition, all the presidents; great and small, football players and movie stars—folded one after another."
Gerald Ford, angered that Israel had been reluctant to leave the Sinai following the 1973 war not only suspended aid for six months in 1975, but in March of that year made a speech, backed by Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, that called for a "reassessment" of the US-Israel relationship. Within weeks, AIPAC (American-Israel Public Affairs Committee), Israel’s Washington lobby secured a letter signed by 76 senators "confirming their support for Israel, and suggesting that the White House see fit to do the same. The language was tough, the tone almost bullying." Ford backed down.
We need to only look at the current Bush presidency to see that this phenomenon is still the rule. In 1991, the same year as Chomsky’s talk, Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir asked the first Bush administration for $10 billion in loan guarantees in order, he said, to provide for the resettlement of Russian Jews. Bush Sr. had earlier balked at a request from Congress to appropriate an additional $650 million dollars to compensate Israel for sitting out the Gulf War, but gave in when he realized that his veto would be overridden. But now he told Shamir that Israel could only have the guarantees if it would freeze settlement building and promised that no Russian Jews would be resettled in the West Bank.
An angry Shamir refused and called on AIPAC to mobilize Congress and the organized American Jewish community in support of the loan guarantees.
A letter, drafted by AIPAC was signed by more than 240 members of the House demanding that Bush approve them, and 77 senators signed on to supporting legislation.
On September 12, 1991, Jewish lobbyists descended on Washington in such numbers that Bush felt obliged to call a televised press conference in which he complained that "1000 Jewish lobbyists are on Capitol Hill against little old me." It would prove to be his epitaph.
Chomsky pointed to Bush’s statement, at the time, as proof that the vaunted Israel lobby was nothing more than "a paper tiger "It took scarcely more than a raised eyebrow for the lobby to collapse," he told readers of Z Magazine. He could not have been further from the truth.
The next day, Tom Dine, AIPAC’s Executive Director, declared that "September 12, 1991 is a day that will live in infamy," Similar comments were uttered by Jewish leaders who accused Bush of provoking anti-Semitism. What was more important, his friends in the mainstream media, like William Safire, George Will, and Charles Krauthammer, not only criticized him, they began to find fault with the economy and how he was running the country. It was all downhill from there. Bush’s Jewish vote, which has been estimated at 38% in 1988, dropped down to no more than 12%, with some estimates as low as 8%.
Bush’s opposition to the loan guarantees was the last straw for the Israel lobby. When he made disparaging comments about Jewish settlements in East Jerusalem in March, 1990, AIPAC had begun the attack (briefly halted during the the Gulf War). Dine wrote a critical op-ed in the New York Times and followed that with a vigorous speech to the United Jewish Appeal’s Young Leaders Conference. "Brothers and sisters," he told them as they prepared to go out and lobby Congress on the issue, "remember that Israel’s friends in this city reside on Capitol Hill." Months later, the loan guarantees were approved, but by then, Bush was dead meat.
Now, jump ahead to last Spring when Bush Jr. forthrightly demanded that Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon withdraw his troops from Jenin, saying "Enough is enough!" It made headlines all over the world, as did his backing down when Sharon refused. What happened? Harsh criticism boomed from within his own party in Congress and from his daddy’s old friends in the media. Will associated Dubya with Yasser Arafat and accused Bush of having lost his "moral clarity." The next day, Safire suggested that Bush was "being pushed into a minefield of mistakes" and that he had "become a wavering ally as Israel fights for survival." Junior got the message and within a week, declared Sharon to be "a man of peace." Since then, as journalist Robert Fisk and others have noted, Sharon seems to be writing Bush’s speeches.
There are some who believe that Bush Jr. and presidents before him made statements critical of Israel for appearances only, to convince the world, and the Arab countries, in particular, that the US can be an "honest broker" between the Israelis and the Palestinians. But it is difficult to make a case that any of them would put themselves in a position to be humiliated simply as a cover for US policy.
A better explanation was provided by Stephen Green, whose "Taking Sides, America’s Secret Relations with Militant Israel," was the first examination of State Department archives concerning US-Israel relations. Since the Eisenhower administration, wrote Green, in 1984, "Israel, and friends of Israel in America, have determined the broad outlines of US policy in the region. It has been left to American Presidents to implement that policy, with varying degrees of enthusiasm, and to deal with the tactical issues."
An exaggeration, perhaps, but former US Senator James Abourezk (D-South Dakota) echoed Green’s words in a speech before the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee last June:
"That is the state of American politics today. The Israeli lobby has put together so much money power that we are daily witnessing US senators and representatives bowing down low to Israel and its US lobby.
"Make no mistake. The votes and bows have nothing to do with the legislators’ love for Israel. They have everything to do with the money that is fed into their campaigns by members of the Israeli lobby. My estimate is that at least $6 billion flows from the American Treasury to Israel each year. That money, plus the political support the US gives Israel at the United Nations, is what allows Israel to conduct criminal operations in Palestine with impunity."
That is a reality that has been repeated many times in many forms by ex-members of Congress, usually speaking off the record. It is the reality that Chomsky and those who accept his analysis prefer to ignore.
The problem is not so much that Chomsky has been wrong. He has, after all, been right on many other things, particularly in describing the ways in which the media manipulates the public consciousness to serve the interests of the state. However, by explaining US support for Israel simply as a component of those interests, and ignoring the influence of the Israel lobby in determining that component, he appears to have made a major error that has had measurable consequences. By accepting Chomsky’s analysis, the Palestinian solidarity movement has failed to take the only political step that might have weakened the hold of Israel on Congress and the American electorate, namely, by challenging the billions of dollars in aid and tax breaks that the US provides Israel on an annual basis.
The questions that beg asking are why his argument has been so eagerly accepted by the movement and why the contrary position put forth by people of considerable stature such as Edward Said, Ed Herman, Uri Avnery, and more recently, Alexander Cockburn, has been ignored. There appear to be several reasons.
The people who make up the movement, Jews and non-Jews alike, have embraced Chomsky’s position because it is the message they want to hear; not feeling obligated to "blame the Jews" is reassuring. The fear of either provoking anti--Semitism or being called an anti-Semite (or a self-hating Jew) has become so ingrained into our culture and body politic that no one, including Chomsky or Zunes, is immune. This is reinforced by constant reminders of the Jewish Holocaust that, by no accident, appear in the movies and in major news media on a regular basis. Chomsky, in particular, has been heavily criticized by the Jewish establishment for decades for his criticism of Israeli policies, even to the point of being "excommunicated," a distinction he shares with the late Hannah Arendt. It may be fair to assume that at some level this history influences Chomsky’s analysis.
But the problems of the movement go beyond the fear of invoking anti-Semitism as Chomsky is aware and correctly noted in "The Fateful Triangle":
[T]he American Left and pacifist groups, apart from fringe elements, have quite generally been extremely supportive of Israel (contrary to many baseless allegations), some passionately so, and have turned a blind eye to practices that they would be quick to denounce elsewhere."
The issue of US aid to Israel provides a clear example. During the Reagan era, there was a major effort launched by the anti-intervention movement to block a $15 million annual appropriation destined for the Nicaraguan contras. People across the country were urged to call their Congressional representatives and get them to vote against the measure. That effort was not only successful; it forced the administration to engage in what became known as Contragate.
At the time, Israel was receiving the equivalent of that much money on a daily basis. Now, that amount "officially" is about $10 million a day and yet no major campaign has ever been launched to stem that flow or even call the public’s attention to it. When attempts were made they were stymied by the opposition of such key players (at the time) as the American Friends Service Committee which was anxious, apparently, not to alienate major Jewish contributors. (Recent efforts initiated on the internet to "suspend" military aid (but not economic!) until Israel ends the occupation have gone nowhere.)
The slogans that have been advanced by various sectors of the Palestinian solidarity movement, such as "End the Occupation," End Israeli Apartheid," "Zionism equals Racism," or "Two States for Two Peoples," while addressing key issues of the conflict, assume a level of awareness on the part of the American people for which no evidence exists. Concern for where their tax dollars are going, particularly at a time of massive cutbacks in social programs, certainly would have greater resonance. Initiating a serious campaign to halt aid would require focusing on the role of Congress and recognition of the role of the Israel lobby.
Chomsky’s evaluation of Israel’s position in the Middle East admittedly contains elements of truth, but nothing sufficient to explain what former Undersecretary of State George Ball described as America’s "passionate attachment" to the Jewish state. However, his attempt to portray the US-Israel relationship as mirroring that of the Washington’s relations to its client regimes in El Salvador, Guatemala, and Nicaragua, has no basis in reality.
US involvement in Central America was fairly simple. Arms and training were supplied to military dictatorships in order for their armies and their death squads to suppress the desires of their own citizens for land, civil rights, and economic justice, all of which would undermine US corporate interests. This was quite transparent. Does Israel fit into that category? Obviously not. Whatever one may say about Israel, its Jewish majority, at least, enjoys democratic rights.
Also, there were no Salvadoran, Nicaraguan or Guatemalan lobbies of any consequence in Washington to lavish millions of dollars wooing or intimidating members of Congress; no one in the House or Senate from any of those client countries with possible dual-loyalties approving multi-billion dollar appropriations on an annual basis; none owning major television networks, radio stations, newspapers, or movie studios, and no trade unions or state pension funds investing billions of dollars in their respective economies. The closest thing in the category of national lobbies is that of Miami’s Cuban exiles whose existence and power the Left is willing to acknowledge, even though its political clout is minuscule compared to that of Israel’s supporters.
What about Chomsky’s assertion that Israel is America’s cop-on- the-beat in the Middle East? There is, as yet, no record of a single Israeli soldier shedding a drop of blood in behalf of US interests, and there is little likelihood one will be asked to do so in the future. When US presidents have believed that a cop was necessary in the region, US troops were ordered to do the job.
When President Eisenhower believed that US interests were threatened in Lebanon in 1958, he sent in the Marines. In 1991, as mentioned, President Bush not only told Israel to sit on the sidelines, he further angered its military by refusing to allow Vice-President Dick Cheney to give the Israeli air force the coordinates it demanded in order to take to the air in response to Iraq’s Scud attacks. This left the Israeli pilots literally sitting in their planes, waiting for information that never came.
What Chomsky offers as proof of Israel’s role as a US gendarme was the warning that the Israel gave Syria not to intervene in King Hussein’s war on the Palestinian Liberation Organization in Jordan in September 1970.
Clearly this was done primarily to protect Israel’s interests. That it also served Washington’s agenda was a secondary consideration. For Chomsky, it was "another important service" for the US. What Chomsky ignores and most historians fail to mention is another reason that Syria failed to come to the rescue of the Palestinians at the time.
The commander of the Syrian air force, Hafez Al-Assad, had shown little sympathy with the Palestinian cause and was critical of the friendly relations that the PLO enjoyed with the Syrian government under President Atassi. When King Hussein launched his attack, Assad kept his planes on the ground.
Three months later, he staged a coup and installed himself as president. Among his first acts was the imprisonment of hundreds of Palestinians and their Syrian supporters. He then proceeded to gut the Syrian sponsored militia, Al-Saika, and eliminate the funds that Syria had been sending to Palestinian militia groups. In the ensuing years, Assad allowed groups opposed to Yasser Arafat to maintain offices and a radio station in Damascus, but little else. A year after Israel’s invasion of Lebanon, he sponsored a short, but bloody intra-Palestinian civil war in Northern Lebanon. This is history that has fallen through the cracks.
How much the presence of Israel has intimidated its weaker Arab neighbours from endangering US interests is at best a matter of conjecture. Clearly, Israel’s presence has been used by these reactionary regimes, most of them US allies, as an excuse for suppressing internal opposition movements. (One might argue that the CIA’s involvement in the overthrow of Mossadegh in Iran in 1953, and Abdel Karim Kassem in Iraq in 1963, had more of an impact on crushing progress movement in the region.)
What Israel has provided for the US to their mutual benefit have been a number of joint weapons programs, largely financed by US taxpayers and the use by the US of military equipment developed by Israeli technicians not the least of which were the "plows" that were used to bury alive fleeing Iraqi soldiers in the first Gulf War. Since high levels of US aid preceded these weapons programs, it is hard to argue that they form the basis of US support.
Another argument advanced by Chomsky has been Israel’s willingness to serve the US by taking on tasks which past US administrations were unable or unwilling to undertake due to specific US laws or public opinion, such as selling arms to unsavoury regimes or training death squads.
That Israel did this at the request of the US is an open question. A comment by Israeli minister Yakov Meridor’s comment in Ha'aretz, makes it unlikely.
"We shall say to the Americans: Don’t compete with us in Taiwan, "Don’t compete with us in South Africa, don’t compete with us in the Caribbean area, or in other areas in which we can sell weapons directly and where you can’t operate in the open. Give us the opportunity to do this and trust us with the sales of ammunition and hardware."
In fact, there was no time that the US stopped training death squads in Latin America or providing arms, with the exception of Guatemala where Carter halted US assistance because of its massive human rights violations, something that presented no problem for an Israeli military already steeped in such violations. In one situation we saw the reverse situation. Israel provided more than 80% of El Salvador’s weapons before the US moved in.
As for Israel’s trade and joint arms projects, including the development of nuclear weaponry, with South Africa, that was a natural alliance; two societies that had usurped someone else’s land and saw themselves in the same position, "a civilized people surrounded by threatening savages." The relationship became so close that South Africa’s Sun City became the resort of choice for vacationing Israelis.
The reason that Israeli officials gave for selling these weapons, when questioned, was it was the only way that Israel could keep its own arms industry functioning. Israel’s sales of sophisticated weaponry to China have drawn criticism from several administrations, but this has been tempered by Congressional pressure.
What Israel did benefit from was a blanket of silence from the US anti-intervention movement and anti-apartheid movements whose leadership was more comfortable criticizing US policies than those of Israel’s. Whether their behavior was due to their willingness to put Israel’s interests first, or whether they were concerned about provoking anti-Semitism, the result was the same.
A protest that I organized in 1985 against Israel’s ties to apartheid South Africa and its role as a US surrogate in Central America, provides a clear example. When I approached board members of the Nicaraguan Information Center (NIC) in the San Francisco Bay Area and asked for the group’s endorsement of the protest, I received no support.
NIC was the main Nicaraguan solidarity group, and despite Israel’s long and ugly history , first in aiding first Somoza, and at the time of the protest, the contras, the board voted..... well, they couldn't vote not to endorse, so they voted to make "no more endorsements," a position they reversed soon after our rally. NIC’s board was almost entirely Jewish.
I fared better with GNIB, the Guatemalan News and Information Bureau, but only after a considerable struggle. At the time, Israel was supplying 98% of the weaponry and all of the training to one of the most murderous regimes in modern times. One would think that an organization that claimed to be working in solidarity with the people of Guatemala would not only endorse the rally but be eager to participate.
Apparently, the GNIB board was deeply divided in the issue. Unwilling to accept another refusal, I harassed the board with phone calls until it voted to endorse. Oakland CISPES (Committee in Solidarity with the People of El Salvador) endorsed. The San Francisco chapter declined. (A year earlier, when I had been quoted in the San Francisco Weekly criticizing the influence of the Israel lobby on the Democratic Party, officials from the chapter wrote a letter to the editor claiming that I was provoking "anti-Semitism.") The leading anti-apartheid organizations endorsed the protest, but again, after lengthy internal debate.
The protest had been organized in response to the refusal of the San Francisco-based Mobilization for Peace, Jobs and Justice, (Mobe) a coalition of movement organizations, to include any mention of the Middle East among the demands that it was issuing for a march opposing South African apartheid and US intervention in Central America.
At an organizing meeting for the event, a handful of us asked that a plank calling for "No US Intervention in the Middle East" be added to the demands that had previously been decided. The vote was overwhelmingly against it. A Jewish trade unionist told us that "we could do more for the Palestinians by not mentioning them, then by mentioning them," a strange response which mirrored what President Reagan was then saying about ending apartheid in South Africa. We were privately told that if the Middle East was mentioned, "the unions would walk," recognition of the strong support for Israel that exists among the labor bureaucracy.
The timing of the Mobe’s refusal was significant. Two and a half years earlier, Israel had invaded Lebanon and its troops still remained there as we met on that evening in San Francisco. And yet, the leaders of the Mobe would not let Tina Naccache, a programmer for Berkeley’s KPFA, the only Lebanese in the large union hall, speak in behalf of the demand.
Three years later, the Mobe scheduled another mass march. The Palestinians were in the first full year of their intifada, and it seemed appropriate that a statement calling for an end to Israeli occupation be added to the demands. The organizers, the same ones from 1985, had already decided on what they would be behind closed doors: "No US Intervention in Central America or the Caribbean; End US Support for South African Apartheid; Freeze and Reverse the Nuclear Arms Race; Jobs and Justice, Not War."
This time the Mobe took no chances and cancelled a public meeting where our demand could be debated and voted on. An Emergency Coalition for Palestinian Rights in was formed in response. A petition was drawn up circulated supporting the demand. Close to 3,000 people signed it, including hundreds of from the Palestinian community. The Mobe leadership finally agreed to one concession. On the back of its official flyer, where it would be invisible when posted on a wall or tree, was the following sentence:
"Give peace a chance everywhere: The plight of the Palestinian people, as shown by the recent events in the West Bank and Gaza, remind us that we must support human rights everywhere. Let the nations of our world turn from building armies and death machines to spending their energy and resources on improving the quality of life- Peace, Jobs and Justice."
There was no mention of Israel or the atrocities its soldiers were committing. The flyer put out by the unions ignored the subject completely.
Fast forward to February, 2002, when a new and smaller version of the Mobe met to plan a march and rally to oppose the US war on Afghanistan. There was a different cast of characters but they produced the same result. The argument was that what was needed was a "broad" coalition and raising the issue of Palestine would prevent that from happening.
The national movement to oppose the extension of the Iraq war has been no different. As in 1991, at the time of the Gulf War, there were competing large marches, separately organized but with overlapping participants. Despite their other political differences, what the organizers of both marches agreed on was that there would be no mention of the Israel-Palestine conflict in any of the protest literature, even though its connections to the situation in Iraq were being made at virtually every other demonstration taking place throughout the world. The movement’s fear of alienating American Jews still holds sway over defending the rights of Palestinians
Last September, the slogan of "No War on Iraq-Justice for Palestine!" drew close to a half million protesters to Trafalgar Square. The difference was expressed by a Native American leader during the first intifada. "The problem with the movement," he told me, "is that there are too many liberal Zionists."
If there is one event that exposed their influence over of the movement, it is what occurred in the streets of New York on June 12, 1982 when 800,000 people gathered in front of the United Nations to call for a ban on nuclear weapons. Six days earlier, on June 6th, Israel had launched a devastating invasion of Lebanon. Its goal was to destroy the Palestine Liberation Organization then based in that country. Eighty thousand soldiers, backed by massive bombing from the air and from the sea were creating a level of death and destruction that dwarfed what Iraq would later do in Kuwait. Within a year there would be 20,000 Palestinians and Lebanese dead and tens of thousands more wounded.
And what was the response that day in New York? In recognition of the suffering then taking place in his homeland, a Lebanese man was allowed to sit on the stage, but he would not be introduced; not allowed to say a word. Nor was the subject mentioned by any of the speakers. Israel and its lobby couldn't have asked for anything more.
Twenty-one years later, Ariel Sharon, the architect of that invasion, is Israel’s Prime Minister, having been elected for the second time. As I write these lines, pro-Israel zealots within the Bush administration are about to savour their greatest triumph. After all, they have been the driving force for a war which they envision as the first stage in "redrawing the map of the Middle East" with the US-Israel alliance at its fore.
And the Left? Rabbi Arthur Waskow, a long-time activist with impeccable credentials, assured the Jewish weekly, Forward, that United for Peace and Justice, organizers of the February 15th anti-war rally in New York, "has done a great deal to make clear it is not involved in anti-Israel rhetoric. From the beginning there was nothing in United for Peace’s statements that dealt at all with the Israel-Palestine issue."
Chomsky replied that its reputation was generally exaggerated and like other lobbies, it only appears to be powerful when its position lines up with that of the "elites" who determine policy in Washington. Earlier in the evening, he had asserted that Israel received support from the United States as a reward for the services it provides as the US’s "cop-on-the -beat" in the Middle East.
Chomsky’s response drew a warm round of applause from members of the audience who were no doubt pleased to have American Jews absolved from any blame for Israel’s oppression of the Palestinians, then in the fourth year of their first intifada.
What is noteworthy is that Chomsky’s explanation for the financial and political support that the U.S. has provided Israel over the years is shared by what is generically known as the Israel lobby, and almost no one else.
Well, not quite "almost no one." Among the exceptions are the overwhelming majority of both houses of Congress and the mainstream media, and what is equally noteworthy, virtually the entire American Left, both ideological and idealistic, including the organizations ostensibly in the forefront of the fight for Palestinian rights.
That there is a meeting of the minds on this issue between supporters of Israel and the Left may help explain why the Palestine support movement within the United States has been an utter failure.
Chomsky’s position on the lobby had been established well before that Berkeley evening. In The Fateful Triangle, published in 1983, he assigned it little weight.
"The ‘special relationship’ is often attributed to domestic political pressures, in particular, the effectiveness of the American Jewish community in political life and influencing opinion. While there is some truth to this…it underestimates the scope of the ‘support for Israel,’ and… it overestimates the role of political pressure groups in decision making." (P.13)
A year earlier, Congress had applauded Israel’s devastating invasion of Lebanon, and then appropriated millions in additional aid to pay for the shells the Israeli military had expended. How much of this support was due to the legislators’ "support for Israel" and how much was due to pressures from the Israel lobby? It was a question that should have been examined by the Left at the time, but wasn’t. Twenty years later, Chomsky’s view is still the "conventional wisdom."
In 2001, the midst of the second intifada, he went further, arguing that "it is improper—particularly in the United States--to condemn ‘Israeli atrocities,’" and that the "‘US/Israel-Palestine’ conflict" is the more correct term, comparable with placing the proper responsibility for "Russian- backed crimes in Eastern Europe [and] US-backed crimes in Central America." And, to emphasize the point, he wrote, "IDF helicopters are US helicopters with Israeli pilots."
Prof. Stephen Zunes, who might be described as a Chomsky acolyte, would not only relieve Israeli Jews from any responsibility for their actions, he would have us believe they are the victims.
In "Tinderbox, his widely praised (by Chomsky and others) new book on the Middle East, Zunes faults the Arabs for "blaming Israel, Zionism, or the Jews for their problems." According to Zunes, the Israelis have been forced to assume a role similar to that assigned to members of the Jewish ghettos of Eastern Europe who performed services, mainly tax collection, as middlemen between the feudal lords and the serfs in earlier times In fact, writes Zunes, "US policy today corresponds with this historic anti-Semitism." Anyone comparing the relative power of the Jewish community in centuries past with what we find in the US today will find that statement absurd.
Jewish power has, in fact, been trumpeted by a number of Jewish writers, including one, J.J. Goldberg, editor of the Jewish weekly Forward, who wrote a book by that name in 1996. Any attempt, however, to explore the issue from a critical standpoint, inevitably leads to accusations of anti-Semitism, as Bill and Kathy Christison pointed out in their article on the role of right wing Jewish neo-cons in orchestrating US Middle East policy, in Counterpunch (1/25/3):
"Anyone who has the temerity to suggest any Israeli instigation of, or even involvement in, Bush administration war planning is inevitably labelled somewhere along the way as an anti-Semite. Just whisper the word "domination" anywhere in the vicinity of the word "Israel," as in "U.S.-Israeli domination of the Middle East" or "the U.S. drive to assure global domination and guarantee security for Israel," and some Leftist who otherwise opposes going to war against Iraq will trot out charges of promoting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the old czarist forgery that asserted a Jewish plan for world domination."
Presumably, this is what Zunes would call an example of the "latent anti-Semitism which has come to the fore with wildly exaggerated claims of Jewish economic and political power." And that it "is a na?ve assumption to believe that foreign policy decision making in the US is pluralistic enough so that any one lobbying group…can have so much influence."
This is hardly the first time that Jews have been in the upper echelons of power as Benjamin Ginsberg points out in "The Fatal Embrace: Jews and the State, but there has never been a situation anything like the present. This was how Ginzberg began his book:
"Since the 1960s, Jews have come to wield considerable influence in American economic, cultural, intellectual and political life. Jews played a central role in American finance during the 1980s, and they were among the chief beneficiaries of that decade’s corporate mergers and reorganizations. Today, though barely 2 % of the nation’s population is Jewish, close to half its billionaires are Jews. The chief executive officers of the three major television networks and the four largest film studios are Jews, as are the owners of the nation’s largest newspaper chain and the most influential single newspaper, the New York Times".
That was written in 1993, Today, ten years later, ardently pro- Israel American Jews are in positions of unprecedented influence within the United States and have assumed or been given decision making positions over virtually every segment of our culture and body politic. This is no secret conspiracy. Regular readers of the New York Times business section, which reports the comings and goings of the media tycoons, are certainly aware of it. Does this mean that each and every one is a pro-Israel zealot? Not necessarily, but when one compares the US media with its European counterparts in their respective coverage of the Israel-Palestine conflict, the extreme bias in favour of Israel on the part of the US media is immediately apparent.
This might explain Nation Columnist Eric Alterman’s discovery that "Europeans and Americans… differ profoundly in their views of the Israel/Palestine issue at both the elite and popular levels.. with Americans being far more sympathetic to Israel and the Europeans to the Palestinian cause…"
An additional component of Chomsky’s analysis is his insistence that it is the US, more than Israel, that is the "rejectionist state," implying that were it not for the US, Israel might long ago have abandoned the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestinians for a mini- state.
Essential to his analysis is the notion that every US administration since that of Eisenhower has attempted to advance Israel’s interests in line with America’s global and regional agenda. This is a far more complex issue than Chomsky leads us believe. Knowledgeable insiders, both critical and supportive of Israel, have described in detail major conflicts that have taken place between US and Israeli administrations over the years in which Israel, thanks to the diligence of its domestic lobby, prevailed.
In particular, Chomsky ignores or misinterprets the efforts made by every US president beginning with Richard Nixon to curb Israel’s expansionism, halt its settlement building and to obtain its withdrawal from the Occupied Territories.
"What happened to all those nice plans?" asked Israeli journalist and peace activist Uri Avnery.
"Israel’s governments … mobilized the collective power of US Jewry—which dominates Congress and the media to a large degree—against them. Faced by this vigorous opposition, all the presidents; great and small, football players and movie stars—folded one after another."
Gerald Ford, angered that Israel had been reluctant to leave the Sinai following the 1973 war not only suspended aid for six months in 1975, but in March of that year made a speech, backed by Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, that called for a "reassessment" of the US-Israel relationship. Within weeks, AIPAC (American-Israel Public Affairs Committee), Israel’s Washington lobby secured a letter signed by 76 senators "confirming their support for Israel, and suggesting that the White House see fit to do the same. The language was tough, the tone almost bullying." Ford backed down.
We need to only look at the current Bush presidency to see that this phenomenon is still the rule. In 1991, the same year as Chomsky’s talk, Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir asked the first Bush administration for $10 billion in loan guarantees in order, he said, to provide for the resettlement of Russian Jews. Bush Sr. had earlier balked at a request from Congress to appropriate an additional $650 million dollars to compensate Israel for sitting out the Gulf War, but gave in when he realized that his veto would be overridden. But now he told Shamir that Israel could only have the guarantees if it would freeze settlement building and promised that no Russian Jews would be resettled in the West Bank.
An angry Shamir refused and called on AIPAC to mobilize Congress and the organized American Jewish community in support of the loan guarantees.
A letter, drafted by AIPAC was signed by more than 240 members of the House demanding that Bush approve them, and 77 senators signed on to supporting legislation.
On September 12, 1991, Jewish lobbyists descended on Washington in such numbers that Bush felt obliged to call a televised press conference in which he complained that "1000 Jewish lobbyists are on Capitol Hill against little old me." It would prove to be his epitaph.
Chomsky pointed to Bush’s statement, at the time, as proof that the vaunted Israel lobby was nothing more than "a paper tiger "It took scarcely more than a raised eyebrow for the lobby to collapse," he told readers of Z Magazine. He could not have been further from the truth.
The next day, Tom Dine, AIPAC’s Executive Director, declared that "September 12, 1991 is a day that will live in infamy," Similar comments were uttered by Jewish leaders who accused Bush of provoking anti-Semitism. What was more important, his friends in the mainstream media, like William Safire, George Will, and Charles Krauthammer, not only criticized him, they began to find fault with the economy and how he was running the country. It was all downhill from there. Bush’s Jewish vote, which has been estimated at 38% in 1988, dropped down to no more than 12%, with some estimates as low as 8%.
Bush’s opposition to the loan guarantees was the last straw for the Israel lobby. When he made disparaging comments about Jewish settlements in East Jerusalem in March, 1990, AIPAC had begun the attack (briefly halted during the the Gulf War). Dine wrote a critical op-ed in the New York Times and followed that with a vigorous speech to the United Jewish Appeal’s Young Leaders Conference. "Brothers and sisters," he told them as they prepared to go out and lobby Congress on the issue, "remember that Israel’s friends in this city reside on Capitol Hill." Months later, the loan guarantees were approved, but by then, Bush was dead meat.
Now, jump ahead to last Spring when Bush Jr. forthrightly demanded that Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon withdraw his troops from Jenin, saying "Enough is enough!" It made headlines all over the world, as did his backing down when Sharon refused. What happened? Harsh criticism boomed from within his own party in Congress and from his daddy’s old friends in the media. Will associated Dubya with Yasser Arafat and accused Bush of having lost his "moral clarity." The next day, Safire suggested that Bush was "being pushed into a minefield of mistakes" and that he had "become a wavering ally as Israel fights for survival." Junior got the message and within a week, declared Sharon to be "a man of peace." Since then, as journalist Robert Fisk and others have noted, Sharon seems to be writing Bush’s speeches.
There are some who believe that Bush Jr. and presidents before him made statements critical of Israel for appearances only, to convince the world, and the Arab countries, in particular, that the US can be an "honest broker" between the Israelis and the Palestinians. But it is difficult to make a case that any of them would put themselves in a position to be humiliated simply as a cover for US policy.
A better explanation was provided by Stephen Green, whose "Taking Sides, America’s Secret Relations with Militant Israel," was the first examination of State Department archives concerning US-Israel relations. Since the Eisenhower administration, wrote Green, in 1984, "Israel, and friends of Israel in America, have determined the broad outlines of US policy in the region. It has been left to American Presidents to implement that policy, with varying degrees of enthusiasm, and to deal with the tactical issues."
An exaggeration, perhaps, but former US Senator James Abourezk (D-South Dakota) echoed Green’s words in a speech before the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee last June:
"That is the state of American politics today. The Israeli lobby has put together so much money power that we are daily witnessing US senators and representatives bowing down low to Israel and its US lobby.
"Make no mistake. The votes and bows have nothing to do with the legislators’ love for Israel. They have everything to do with the money that is fed into their campaigns by members of the Israeli lobby. My estimate is that at least $6 billion flows from the American Treasury to Israel each year. That money, plus the political support the US gives Israel at the United Nations, is what allows Israel to conduct criminal operations in Palestine with impunity."
That is a reality that has been repeated many times in many forms by ex-members of Congress, usually speaking off the record. It is the reality that Chomsky and those who accept his analysis prefer to ignore.
The problem is not so much that Chomsky has been wrong. He has, after all, been right on many other things, particularly in describing the ways in which the media manipulates the public consciousness to serve the interests of the state. However, by explaining US support for Israel simply as a component of those interests, and ignoring the influence of the Israel lobby in determining that component, he appears to have made a major error that has had measurable consequences. By accepting Chomsky’s analysis, the Palestinian solidarity movement has failed to take the only political step that might have weakened the hold of Israel on Congress and the American electorate, namely, by challenging the billions of dollars in aid and tax breaks that the US provides Israel on an annual basis.
The questions that beg asking are why his argument has been so eagerly accepted by the movement and why the contrary position put forth by people of considerable stature such as Edward Said, Ed Herman, Uri Avnery, and more recently, Alexander Cockburn, has been ignored. There appear to be several reasons.
The people who make up the movement, Jews and non-Jews alike, have embraced Chomsky’s position because it is the message they want to hear; not feeling obligated to "blame the Jews" is reassuring. The fear of either provoking anti--Semitism or being called an anti-Semite (or a self-hating Jew) has become so ingrained into our culture and body politic that no one, including Chomsky or Zunes, is immune. This is reinforced by constant reminders of the Jewish Holocaust that, by no accident, appear in the movies and in major news media on a regular basis. Chomsky, in particular, has been heavily criticized by the Jewish establishment for decades for his criticism of Israeli policies, even to the point of being "excommunicated," a distinction he shares with the late Hannah Arendt. It may be fair to assume that at some level this history influences Chomsky’s analysis.
But the problems of the movement go beyond the fear of invoking anti-Semitism as Chomsky is aware and correctly noted in "The Fateful Triangle":
[T]he American Left and pacifist groups, apart from fringe elements, have quite generally been extremely supportive of Israel (contrary to many baseless allegations), some passionately so, and have turned a blind eye to practices that they would be quick to denounce elsewhere."
The issue of US aid to Israel provides a clear example. During the Reagan era, there was a major effort launched by the anti-intervention movement to block a $15 million annual appropriation destined for the Nicaraguan contras. People across the country were urged to call their Congressional representatives and get them to vote against the measure. That effort was not only successful; it forced the administration to engage in what became known as Contragate.
At the time, Israel was receiving the equivalent of that much money on a daily basis. Now, that amount "officially" is about $10 million a day and yet no major campaign has ever been launched to stem that flow or even call the public’s attention to it. When attempts were made they were stymied by the opposition of such key players (at the time) as the American Friends Service Committee which was anxious, apparently, not to alienate major Jewish contributors. (Recent efforts initiated on the internet to "suspend" military aid (but not economic!) until Israel ends the occupation have gone nowhere.)
The slogans that have been advanced by various sectors of the Palestinian solidarity movement, such as "End the Occupation," End Israeli Apartheid," "Zionism equals Racism," or "Two States for Two Peoples," while addressing key issues of the conflict, assume a level of awareness on the part of the American people for which no evidence exists. Concern for where their tax dollars are going, particularly at a time of massive cutbacks in social programs, certainly would have greater resonance. Initiating a serious campaign to halt aid would require focusing on the role of Congress and recognition of the role of the Israel lobby.
Chomsky’s evaluation of Israel’s position in the Middle East admittedly contains elements of truth, but nothing sufficient to explain what former Undersecretary of State George Ball described as America’s "passionate attachment" to the Jewish state. However, his attempt to portray the US-Israel relationship as mirroring that of the Washington’s relations to its client regimes in El Salvador, Guatemala, and Nicaragua, has no basis in reality.
US involvement in Central America was fairly simple. Arms and training were supplied to military dictatorships in order for their armies and their death squads to suppress the desires of their own citizens for land, civil rights, and economic justice, all of which would undermine US corporate interests. This was quite transparent. Does Israel fit into that category? Obviously not. Whatever one may say about Israel, its Jewish majority, at least, enjoys democratic rights.
Also, there were no Salvadoran, Nicaraguan or Guatemalan lobbies of any consequence in Washington to lavish millions of dollars wooing or intimidating members of Congress; no one in the House or Senate from any of those client countries with possible dual-loyalties approving multi-billion dollar appropriations on an annual basis; none owning major television networks, radio stations, newspapers, or movie studios, and no trade unions or state pension funds investing billions of dollars in their respective economies. The closest thing in the category of national lobbies is that of Miami’s Cuban exiles whose existence and power the Left is willing to acknowledge, even though its political clout is minuscule compared to that of Israel’s supporters.
What about Chomsky’s assertion that Israel is America’s cop-on- the-beat in the Middle East? There is, as yet, no record of a single Israeli soldier shedding a drop of blood in behalf of US interests, and there is little likelihood one will be asked to do so in the future. When US presidents have believed that a cop was necessary in the region, US troops were ordered to do the job.
When President Eisenhower believed that US interests were threatened in Lebanon in 1958, he sent in the Marines. In 1991, as mentioned, President Bush not only told Israel to sit on the sidelines, he further angered its military by refusing to allow Vice-President Dick Cheney to give the Israeli air force the coordinates it demanded in order to take to the air in response to Iraq’s Scud attacks. This left the Israeli pilots literally sitting in their planes, waiting for information that never came.
What Chomsky offers as proof of Israel’s role as a US gendarme was the warning that the Israel gave Syria not to intervene in King Hussein’s war on the Palestinian Liberation Organization in Jordan in September 1970.
Clearly this was done primarily to protect Israel’s interests. That it also served Washington’s agenda was a secondary consideration. For Chomsky, it was "another important service" for the US. What Chomsky ignores and most historians fail to mention is another reason that Syria failed to come to the rescue of the Palestinians at the time.
The commander of the Syrian air force, Hafez Al-Assad, had shown little sympathy with the Palestinian cause and was critical of the friendly relations that the PLO enjoyed with the Syrian government under President Atassi. When King Hussein launched his attack, Assad kept his planes on the ground.
Three months later, he staged a coup and installed himself as president. Among his first acts was the imprisonment of hundreds of Palestinians and their Syrian supporters. He then proceeded to gut the Syrian sponsored militia, Al-Saika, and eliminate the funds that Syria had been sending to Palestinian militia groups. In the ensuing years, Assad allowed groups opposed to Yasser Arafat to maintain offices and a radio station in Damascus, but little else. A year after Israel’s invasion of Lebanon, he sponsored a short, but bloody intra-Palestinian civil war in Northern Lebanon. This is history that has fallen through the cracks.
How much the presence of Israel has intimidated its weaker Arab neighbours from endangering US interests is at best a matter of conjecture. Clearly, Israel’s presence has been used by these reactionary regimes, most of them US allies, as an excuse for suppressing internal opposition movements. (One might argue that the CIA’s involvement in the overthrow of Mossadegh in Iran in 1953, and Abdel Karim Kassem in Iraq in 1963, had more of an impact on crushing progress movement in the region.)
What Israel has provided for the US to their mutual benefit have been a number of joint weapons programs, largely financed by US taxpayers and the use by the US of military equipment developed by Israeli technicians not the least of which were the "plows" that were used to bury alive fleeing Iraqi soldiers in the first Gulf War. Since high levels of US aid preceded these weapons programs, it is hard to argue that they form the basis of US support.
Another argument advanced by Chomsky has been Israel’s willingness to serve the US by taking on tasks which past US administrations were unable or unwilling to undertake due to specific US laws or public opinion, such as selling arms to unsavoury regimes or training death squads.
That Israel did this at the request of the US is an open question. A comment by Israeli minister Yakov Meridor’s comment in Ha'aretz, makes it unlikely.
"We shall say to the Americans: Don’t compete with us in Taiwan, "Don’t compete with us in South Africa, don’t compete with us in the Caribbean area, or in other areas in which we can sell weapons directly and where you can’t operate in the open. Give us the opportunity to do this and trust us with the sales of ammunition and hardware."
In fact, there was no time that the US stopped training death squads in Latin America or providing arms, with the exception of Guatemala where Carter halted US assistance because of its massive human rights violations, something that presented no problem for an Israeli military already steeped in such violations. In one situation we saw the reverse situation. Israel provided more than 80% of El Salvador’s weapons before the US moved in.
As for Israel’s trade and joint arms projects, including the development of nuclear weaponry, with South Africa, that was a natural alliance; two societies that had usurped someone else’s land and saw themselves in the same position, "a civilized people surrounded by threatening savages." The relationship became so close that South Africa’s Sun City became the resort of choice for vacationing Israelis.
The reason that Israeli officials gave for selling these weapons, when questioned, was it was the only way that Israel could keep its own arms industry functioning. Israel’s sales of sophisticated weaponry to China have drawn criticism from several administrations, but this has been tempered by Congressional pressure.
What Israel did benefit from was a blanket of silence from the US anti-intervention movement and anti-apartheid movements whose leadership was more comfortable criticizing US policies than those of Israel’s. Whether their behavior was due to their willingness to put Israel’s interests first, or whether they were concerned about provoking anti-Semitism, the result was the same.
A protest that I organized in 1985 against Israel’s ties to apartheid South Africa and its role as a US surrogate in Central America, provides a clear example. When I approached board members of the Nicaraguan Information Center (NIC) in the San Francisco Bay Area and asked for the group’s endorsement of the protest, I received no support.
NIC was the main Nicaraguan solidarity group, and despite Israel’s long and ugly history , first in aiding first Somoza, and at the time of the protest, the contras, the board voted..... well, they couldn't vote not to endorse, so they voted to make "no more endorsements," a position they reversed soon after our rally. NIC’s board was almost entirely Jewish.
I fared better with GNIB, the Guatemalan News and Information Bureau, but only after a considerable struggle. At the time, Israel was supplying 98% of the weaponry and all of the training to one of the most murderous regimes in modern times. One would think that an organization that claimed to be working in solidarity with the people of Guatemala would not only endorse the rally but be eager to participate.
Apparently, the GNIB board was deeply divided in the issue. Unwilling to accept another refusal, I harassed the board with phone calls until it voted to endorse. Oakland CISPES (Committee in Solidarity with the People of El Salvador) endorsed. The San Francisco chapter declined. (A year earlier, when I had been quoted in the San Francisco Weekly criticizing the influence of the Israel lobby on the Democratic Party, officials from the chapter wrote a letter to the editor claiming that I was provoking "anti-Semitism.") The leading anti-apartheid organizations endorsed the protest, but again, after lengthy internal debate.
The protest had been organized in response to the refusal of the San Francisco-based Mobilization for Peace, Jobs and Justice, (Mobe) a coalition of movement organizations, to include any mention of the Middle East among the demands that it was issuing for a march opposing South African apartheid and US intervention in Central America.
At an organizing meeting for the event, a handful of us asked that a plank calling for "No US Intervention in the Middle East" be added to the demands that had previously been decided. The vote was overwhelmingly against it. A Jewish trade unionist told us that "we could do more for the Palestinians by not mentioning them, then by mentioning them," a strange response which mirrored what President Reagan was then saying about ending apartheid in South Africa. We were privately told that if the Middle East was mentioned, "the unions would walk," recognition of the strong support for Israel that exists among the labor bureaucracy.
The timing of the Mobe’s refusal was significant. Two and a half years earlier, Israel had invaded Lebanon and its troops still remained there as we met on that evening in San Francisco. And yet, the leaders of the Mobe would not let Tina Naccache, a programmer for Berkeley’s KPFA, the only Lebanese in the large union hall, speak in behalf of the demand.
Three years later, the Mobe scheduled another mass march. The Palestinians were in the first full year of their intifada, and it seemed appropriate that a statement calling for an end to Israeli occupation be added to the demands. The organizers, the same ones from 1985, had already decided on what they would be behind closed doors: "No US Intervention in Central America or the Caribbean; End US Support for South African Apartheid; Freeze and Reverse the Nuclear Arms Race; Jobs and Justice, Not War."
This time the Mobe took no chances and cancelled a public meeting where our demand could be debated and voted on. An Emergency Coalition for Palestinian Rights in was formed in response. A petition was drawn up circulated supporting the demand. Close to 3,000 people signed it, including hundreds of from the Palestinian community. The Mobe leadership finally agreed to one concession. On the back of its official flyer, where it would be invisible when posted on a wall or tree, was the following sentence:
"Give peace a chance everywhere: The plight of the Palestinian people, as shown by the recent events in the West Bank and Gaza, remind us that we must support human rights everywhere. Let the nations of our world turn from building armies and death machines to spending their energy and resources on improving the quality of life- Peace, Jobs and Justice."
There was no mention of Israel or the atrocities its soldiers were committing. The flyer put out by the unions ignored the subject completely.
Fast forward to February, 2002, when a new and smaller version of the Mobe met to plan a march and rally to oppose the US war on Afghanistan. There was a different cast of characters but they produced the same result. The argument was that what was needed was a "broad" coalition and raising the issue of Palestine would prevent that from happening.
The national movement to oppose the extension of the Iraq war has been no different. As in 1991, at the time of the Gulf War, there were competing large marches, separately organized but with overlapping participants. Despite their other political differences, what the organizers of both marches agreed on was that there would be no mention of the Israel-Palestine conflict in any of the protest literature, even though its connections to the situation in Iraq were being made at virtually every other demonstration taking place throughout the world. The movement’s fear of alienating American Jews still holds sway over defending the rights of Palestinians
Last September, the slogan of "No War on Iraq-Justice for Palestine!" drew close to a half million protesters to Trafalgar Square. The difference was expressed by a Native American leader during the first intifada. "The problem with the movement," he told me, "is that there are too many liberal Zionists."
If there is one event that exposed their influence over of the movement, it is what occurred in the streets of New York on June 12, 1982 when 800,000 people gathered in front of the United Nations to call for a ban on nuclear weapons. Six days earlier, on June 6th, Israel had launched a devastating invasion of Lebanon. Its goal was to destroy the Palestine Liberation Organization then based in that country. Eighty thousand soldiers, backed by massive bombing from the air and from the sea were creating a level of death and destruction that dwarfed what Iraq would later do in Kuwait. Within a year there would be 20,000 Palestinians and Lebanese dead and tens of thousands more wounded.
And what was the response that day in New York? In recognition of the suffering then taking place in his homeland, a Lebanese man was allowed to sit on the stage, but he would not be introduced; not allowed to say a word. Nor was the subject mentioned by any of the speakers. Israel and its lobby couldn't have asked for anything more.
Twenty-one years later, Ariel Sharon, the architect of that invasion, is Israel’s Prime Minister, having been elected for the second time. As I write these lines, pro-Israel zealots within the Bush administration are about to savour their greatest triumph. After all, they have been the driving force for a war which they envision as the first stage in "redrawing the map of the Middle East" with the US-Israel alliance at its fore.
And the Left? Rabbi Arthur Waskow, a long-time activist with impeccable credentials, assured the Jewish weekly, Forward, that United for Peace and Justice, organizers of the February 15th anti-war rally in New York, "has done a great deal to make clear it is not involved in anti-Israel rhetoric. From the beginning there was nothing in United for Peace’s statements that dealt at all with the Israel-Palestine issue."
For more information:
http://desip.igc.org/IsraelLobby.html
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As usual, Jeff Blankfort's article is amazing in its depth of knowledge and the fact that he pulls no punches in articulating his arguments.
He is truly a gift to the left and to politics in America. It's too bad he is not given more prominence to shape our foreign policy.
What I found particularly enlightening was his insight into Hafez Al Assad's anti-Palestinian policy and the "coincidental" coup which got him into power in Syria a couple months after refusing to help Palestinians as ordered by Syrian president Ataffi.
From what I can gather, Blankfort is venerable and it is very important to document his extensive knowledge. He is just a treasure trove of facts...
He is truly a gift to the left and to politics in America. It's too bad he is not given more prominence to shape our foreign policy.
What I found particularly enlightening was his insight into Hafez Al Assad's anti-Palestinian policy and the "coincidental" coup which got him into power in Syria a couple months after refusing to help Palestinians as ordered by Syrian president Ataffi.
From what I can gather, Blankfort is venerable and it is very important to document his extensive knowledge. He is just a treasure trove of facts...
"The movement’s fear of alienating American Jews still holds sway over defending the rights of Palestinians"
"The movement" has lots of fish to fry (many issues, almost all of which are "closer to home" than "the rights of Palestinians").
So the question is (for the movement) what happens if "the movement" makes a big deal about THIS one issue. In other words, what will happen if "the movement" polarizes the situation and forces the American Jews to make a choice "are you progressive movement members or are you Jews?"
Do you really doubt that in this conflict "tribal solidarity" would win out? You are living in a dream world if you imagine that the movement can take a strongly "pro-Palestinian" position and still retain Jewish support for it's other issues. Surely you would expect the opponents on all the other issues to make the "price" of THEIR position/support with regard to Israel (something they don't care about very much, thus an easy price for them) being the American Jews' position/support in exchange.
"The movement" has lots of fish to fry (many issues, almost all of which are "closer to home" than "the rights of Palestinians").
So the question is (for the movement) what happens if "the movement" makes a big deal about THIS one issue. In other words, what will happen if "the movement" polarizes the situation and forces the American Jews to make a choice "are you progressive movement members or are you Jews?"
Do you really doubt that in this conflict "tribal solidarity" would win out? You are living in a dream world if you imagine that the movement can take a strongly "pro-Palestinian" position and still retain Jewish support for it's other issues. Surely you would expect the opponents on all the other issues to make the "price" of THEIR position/support with regard to Israel (something they don't care about very much, thus an easy price for them) being the American Jews' position/support in exchange.
My tribe, right or wrong.
--"You are living in a dream world if you imagine that the movement can take a strongly "pro-Palestinian" position and still retain Jewish support for it's other issues."
Actually, there are many American Jews who are opposed to the injustices heaped on Palestinians.
Some of them include Noam Chomsky, Jeffrey Blankfort (whose article is above), Stanley Cohen, Alfred Lilienthal, Dennis Bernstein, Tim Wise and many others.
What the peace movement does not need are fake progressives who espouse the "My country, right or wrong" mentality.
Actually, there are many American Jews who are opposed to the injustices heaped on Palestinians.
Some of them include Noam Chomsky, Jeffrey Blankfort (whose article is above), Stanley Cohen, Alfred Lilienthal, Dennis Bernstein, Tim Wise and many others.
What the peace movement does not need are fake progressives who espouse the "My country, right or wrong" mentality.
Hahaha, "Many American Christians support justice."
(MOCK-IMPLYING that this is some sort of surprising thing.)
The above poster is an idiot.
The vast majority of American jews want peace in both israel and the west bank and gaza, but in the battle between the israeli army and the palestinian terrorist groups, naturally they side with israel.
See, idiots, it's one thing to support the safety of the jews of israel and of israel as a country yet be against various policies of the government or actions the army takes. MANY people are like that. The average jew has a problem with these people who are not only "pro-palestinian" but also "anti-israel" and go out of their way to INTENTIONALLY EXAGGERATE israeli wrongdoings, lie about zionism and demonize every aspect of it, and basically try to push the message that israel shoudn't even exist.
Those are the sick bastards that we average everyday jews are against. Because they're singling the jewish nation out and intentionally spewing lies about it while not even coming close to applying the same standards and balance to anyone else.
(MOCK-IMPLYING that this is some sort of surprising thing.)
The above poster is an idiot.
The vast majority of American jews want peace in both israel and the west bank and gaza, but in the battle between the israeli army and the palestinian terrorist groups, naturally they side with israel.
See, idiots, it's one thing to support the safety of the jews of israel and of israel as a country yet be against various policies of the government or actions the army takes. MANY people are like that. The average jew has a problem with these people who are not only "pro-palestinian" but also "anti-israel" and go out of their way to INTENTIONALLY EXAGGERATE israeli wrongdoings, lie about zionism and demonize every aspect of it, and basically try to push the message that israel shoudn't even exist.
Those are the sick bastards that we average everyday jews are against. Because they're singling the jewish nation out and intentionally spewing lies about it while not even coming close to applying the same standards and balance to anyone else.
Jews are not about "we support israel, right or wrong."
Well some might be but the vast majority don't think that way.
The vast majority understand that israel's main goal is self-preservation, and that hte main goal with palestinians is figuring out how to get palestinians to not attack israel. What educated people understand ist hat for 35 years, the powers that be who controlled the palestinians cared more about attacking jewish israelis than about ending this nonsense, and that israel does not WANT to hurt anyone, but as long as people are trying to hurt Israel, the situation sucks.
The problem is that a lot of these so-called "pro-palestinian" groups and people (1) don't seem to get that palestinians have been real fucking assholes for decades and have fought with jordan and lebanon as well as israel, (2) are "anti-zionist" as well, meaning, they want palestinians to get a state, but also are against the jews having a state, (3) really don't give a crap about the survival of the middle east jews or israel being secure, they just want the arabs to take over and are fine with muslims having 20something states and jews having 0.
Well some might be but the vast majority don't think that way.
The vast majority understand that israel's main goal is self-preservation, and that hte main goal with palestinians is figuring out how to get palestinians to not attack israel. What educated people understand ist hat for 35 years, the powers that be who controlled the palestinians cared more about attacking jewish israelis than about ending this nonsense, and that israel does not WANT to hurt anyone, but as long as people are trying to hurt Israel, the situation sucks.
The problem is that a lot of these so-called "pro-palestinian" groups and people (1) don't seem to get that palestinians have been real fucking assholes for decades and have fought with jordan and lebanon as well as israel, (2) are "anti-zionist" as well, meaning, they want palestinians to get a state, but also are against the jews having a state, (3) really don't give a crap about the survival of the middle east jews or israel being secure, they just want the arabs to take over and are fine with muslims having 20something states and jews having 0.
Peace without justice is not possible.
Justice is only possible in a secular society in which *all* Palestinians, Jewish, Christian, Muslim or whatever, have equal rights and treat each other with equal respect.
Justice is only possible in a secular society in which *all* Palestinians, Jewish, Christian, Muslim or whatever, have equal rights and treat each other with equal respect.
No matter how many Jewish lives it costs.
"In addition to his sin of being a pacifist and a Jew, Einstein was recruited by Chaim Wiezmann to help raise money for the World Zionist Organization. Together with Weizmann, Einstein toured the States and was a valuable instrument to raise money for the building of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. Through Weizmann, he became a Zionist a cause to which he was willing to help until the end of his life.
He was offered to become the head of the Hebrew University, but he refused because he did not like Dr. Judah Magnes concepts of the University. His outspokenness in this matter caused Weizmann much distress. Einstein was a political innocent and expressed himself in a straight manner accusing Magnes who had control over the American money, but could not properly understand the atmosphere that was necessary for an intellectually free environment for proper scholarly development. Never the less, with the continuing Nazi persecution, he proposed that the Hebrew University become a haven for the many German-Jewish scientists that were ousted from their positions.
Einstein's view of Arab-Israeli problems was based on concessions. This put him at odds with many other Zionist leaders. Yet as anti-Semitism increased in Germany and Europe, he began to realize the need for a Jewish homeland with a national sovereignty. In the 1930's he began to take pride in being a Jew and even appeared in a synagogue playing his violin and wearing a black skullcap.
"
http://www.jewishmag.co.il/59mag/einstein/einstein.htm
Ok, you will probably see that as a biased source, but its worth remembering that people's views changed over time. At many points in his life Einstein would have called himself a Zionist and most of the quotes against aspects of the state of Israel seem to be taken from the point in his life when he would have called himself a Zionist.
Since Einstein was opposed to ideas of racial supremecy one can guess that he probably would oppose many aspects of modern Israel (like the latest law against Palestinian marriages). Its hard to know... trying to put words and ideas about modern events into the mouths of the dead just isnt a great way to argue; its basically the same a rightwingers asking "what would jesus do". Jesus is dead, he doesn't believe anything anymore, and the same is true about Einstein.
He was offered to become the head of the Hebrew University, but he refused because he did not like Dr. Judah Magnes concepts of the University. His outspokenness in this matter caused Weizmann much distress. Einstein was a political innocent and expressed himself in a straight manner accusing Magnes who had control over the American money, but could not properly understand the atmosphere that was necessary for an intellectually free environment for proper scholarly development. Never the less, with the continuing Nazi persecution, he proposed that the Hebrew University become a haven for the many German-Jewish scientists that were ousted from their positions.
Einstein's view of Arab-Israeli problems was based on concessions. This put him at odds with many other Zionist leaders. Yet as anti-Semitism increased in Germany and Europe, he began to realize the need for a Jewish homeland with a national sovereignty. In the 1930's he began to take pride in being a Jew and even appeared in a synagogue playing his violin and wearing a black skullcap.
"
http://www.jewishmag.co.il/59mag/einstein/einstein.htm
Ok, you will probably see that as a biased source, but its worth remembering that people's views changed over time. At many points in his life Einstein would have called himself a Zionist and most of the quotes against aspects of the state of Israel seem to be taken from the point in his life when he would have called himself a Zionist.
Since Einstein was opposed to ideas of racial supremecy one can guess that he probably would oppose many aspects of modern Israel (like the latest law against Palestinian marriages). Its hard to know... trying to put words and ideas about modern events into the mouths of the dead just isnt a great way to argue; its basically the same a rightwingers asking "what would jesus do". Jesus is dead, he doesn't believe anything anymore, and the same is true about Einstein.
Actually, Israel's main goal is expansionism masquerading as self-preservation.
Palestine's goal is self-preservation. Palestine's existence is threatened not Israel's as Zionists love to tell us.
Palestine's goal is self-preservation. Palestine's existence is threatened not Israel's as Zionists love to tell us.
http://www.counterpunch.org/chuckman04042003.html
Israel's Bloody Excesses
Was Einstein Right?
By JOHN CHUCKMAN
"My awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power, no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain -- especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our own ranks, against which we have already had to fight strongly, even without a Jewish state."
Albert Einstein
Einstein is one of my favorite twentieth-century characters. He was remarkable, and I don't mean only for his profound contributions to our understanding of the physical world. He was someone who drove authoritarians like J. Edgar Hoover mad. He was one of those rare souls, like George Orwell, who despite mistakes and flaws, consciously worked to direct his actions, and redirect them after missteps, by principles of decency, humanity, and rational thought. He never subscribed to menacing slogans like "My country, right or wrong" or "You're either with us or against us." Quite the opposite, he knew any country was capable of being wrong at times and did not deserve blind allegiance when it was.
Einstein's was one of the most important names lent to the cause of Zionism. His name and visits and letters raised a great deal of money towards establishing universities and resettling European Jews suffering under violent anti-Semitism long before the founding of Israel.
But even in a cause so dear to his heart, Einstein never stopped thinking for himself. He not only opposed the establishment of a formal Israeli state--he was after all a great internationalist--but he always advocated treating the Arabic people of Palestine with generosity and understanding.
Clearly Einstein's Zionist path was not the one followed. The actual path chosen by Israel has been pretty much that of "the iron wall," a phrase put forward by Ze'ev Jabotinsky in the 1920s as the appropriate posture for Zionists to adopt towards Arabs in Palestine.
Charles de Gaulle, up until the Six Day War, demonstrated great understanding and support for Israel. This thoughtful and highly individualistic statesman felt an instinctive sympathy for the struggle of the Jews, but the Six Day War caused him to alter France's policies towards the Jewish state.
The Six Day War was a much darker and more complex affair than it is portrayed in official Israeli myths. The war was not simply an attack by a gang of Arab states against Israel--a description which suggests not just Goliath, but the entire tribe of Philistines, attacking little David with his slingshot. While this is an appealing image, naturally arousing great sympathy in American Puritans raised on the Old Testament, it is not an accurate one. A fine Jewish scholar like Avi Shlaim, a specialist in the first half century of Israeli policy, recognizing that not all important documents bearing on the matter have been released, agrees there are doubts and ambiguities here rather than light and darkness.
Before the Six Day War, David Ben Gurion made it clear to de Gaulle and other western leaders that Israel wanted more land to absorb migrants. Before the war, Israel also high-handedly diverted water from the Jordan river, a hostile act in a water-short region and the kind of thing that caused more than one "range war" in America's Southwest.
A very tense situation arose with a surge in Soviet armaments to Arab states, although any knowledgeable observer understood that Israel continued to hold the upper hand in any potential conflict. A major diplomatic mission was undertaken by Abba Eban to gather support for Israel's intended violent response to Egypt's blockade of the Straits of Tiran. Just as we now have Bush's obdurate, hasty demand for war with Iraq, Eban made it clear that Israel had no stomach for diplomacy to end the blockade. The blockade meant war.
De Gaulle made a remarkably prescient observation to the Israeli government: "If Israel is attacked, we shall not let her be destroyed, but if you attack, we shall condemn your initiative. Of course, I have no doubt that you will have military successes in the event of war, but afterwards, you would find yourself committed on the terrain, and from the international point of view, in increasing difficulties, especially as war in the East cannot fail to increase a deplorable tension in the world, so that it will be you, having become the conquerors, who will gradually be blamed for the inconveniences."
De Gaulle also understood that Israel's behavior was nourishing nationalistic aspirations on the part of the Palestinians, a development Israel either greatly underestimated or chose to ignore, perhaps reflecting the arrogance of those supported by great power towards those without power. De Gaulle's advice was, of course, ignored. Israel managed easily to overwhelm the Arab states, as its leaders had known it would, and it has occupied a good portion of the territories seized ever since. It has ignored many quiet diplomatic voices on this matter. It has stood in contempt of UN resolutions for years. It has suffered innumerable guerilla attacks and launched innumerable reprisals, even starting a bloody war in Lebanon complete with atrocities. Israel finally came to toy with the notion of a Palestinian state but never made the genuine effort or concessions necessary to see this become a reality. It has, in short, fulfilled de Gaulle's warning of trouble more than thirty years ago.
The 9/11 attack on America, coming under the administration of perhaps the most aimless, blundering, and least informed president in American history, was a godsend for Israel's belligerent policy. The people Israel has occupied and mistreated for a third of a century are regarded by this American president as something akin to al Qaeda. We have even had trial balloons released by Republican figures like Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Armey concerning Israel's right to hold the land and drive out its people, although it is possible these represent pre-assault softening-up by Washington to make Palestinians grateful for a second pathetic offer of statehood now in the works, pathetic because it is impossible to imagine anything else being blessed by both Bush and Sharon.
Perhaps most revealing of the moral state to which Israel has been reduced since the Six Day War were preparations for Mr. Bush's war on Iraq. All Israeli citizens were issued gas masks. A debate and legal moves centered around whether foreign workers, of which there are large numbers, should also receive gas masks. If they wanted gas masks, they must rent or buy them, and the masks available for rental were those considered as expired and unsuitable for Israelis. In families of mixed marriages, apparently spouses who remain unregistered under Israel's now more restrictive registration requirements, do not receive gas masks. Most Palestinians under Israeli occupation are not issued gas masks, it being considered the responsibility of the broken Palestinian Authority, almost without resources, to look after this.
There is something especially repugnant in establishing a hierarchy of people whose safety should be the responsibility of the state, and the various adjustments made to this hierarchy in the face of criticism hardly reflect humane policies.
In recent months, not a week passes in which Israel's army does not kill fifteen or twenty Palestinians. Often, this many are killed in a day or two. These killings are generally reported as the deaths of "militants," although we have no way of determining the legitimacy of that term. We do know that quite a number of people who cannot possibly be characterized as militants, including women and children and peaceful foreign observers, have been killed by Israeli soldiers. Of course, even those who might justifiably be called militants are in their view only putting up a pathetic defense of their homes against Merkava tanks and Apache helicopters.
The assassination of suspected terrorists is now an accepted, ordinary event in Palestine, and Mr. Bush has granted Israel the right to extend this violence to America territory. Mr. Sharon's secret services have conducted scores of assassinations. Perhaps assassination is the wrong word since it is generally used to describe the killing of a high-level political opponent. Mr. Sharon's bloody work is precisely that of a police force murdering, instead of arresting, criminal suspects by the score.
At this writing, as America bombs and burns its way through Iraq, Israel has again rolled out its bulldozers and tanks into Gaza--killing, wrecking, and making many improper arrests. Most horrifying is what Israel is doing to Bedouin farmers in the Negev desert. Israel has used crop dusters spraying poisonous chemicals to destroy the Bedouin crops. The charge is that they are illegal squatters--a remarkable accusation coming from those who still hold lands seized in 1967 and regularly build new settlements on them for brand-new, heavily-armed immigrants.
Defenders of Israel's excesses in the United States have been driven to advocate policies as chilling as creating a legal framework for torturing terrorist suspects in the United States and Israel's undertaking the cold-blooded reprisal killing of the families of desperate suicide bombers. These are powerful measures of the corrupting long-term effects of the Six Day War and Israel's determination to retain control over much or all of the seized land.
Regrettably, Einstein appears to have been right about what Israel had the potential for becoming. No person of principle can support Israel's present policies, and I believe there is little doubt that would include Einstein had he lived. Perhaps it is just as well he did not.
John Chuckman lives in Canada. He can be reached at: chuckman [at] counterpunch.org
Israel's Bloody Excesses
Was Einstein Right?
By JOHN CHUCKMAN
"My awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power, no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain -- especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our own ranks, against which we have already had to fight strongly, even without a Jewish state."
Albert Einstein
Einstein is one of my favorite twentieth-century characters. He was remarkable, and I don't mean only for his profound contributions to our understanding of the physical world. He was someone who drove authoritarians like J. Edgar Hoover mad. He was one of those rare souls, like George Orwell, who despite mistakes and flaws, consciously worked to direct his actions, and redirect them after missteps, by principles of decency, humanity, and rational thought. He never subscribed to menacing slogans like "My country, right or wrong" or "You're either with us or against us." Quite the opposite, he knew any country was capable of being wrong at times and did not deserve blind allegiance when it was.
Einstein's was one of the most important names lent to the cause of Zionism. His name and visits and letters raised a great deal of money towards establishing universities and resettling European Jews suffering under violent anti-Semitism long before the founding of Israel.
But even in a cause so dear to his heart, Einstein never stopped thinking for himself. He not only opposed the establishment of a formal Israeli state--he was after all a great internationalist--but he always advocated treating the Arabic people of Palestine with generosity and understanding.
Clearly Einstein's Zionist path was not the one followed. The actual path chosen by Israel has been pretty much that of "the iron wall," a phrase put forward by Ze'ev Jabotinsky in the 1920s as the appropriate posture for Zionists to adopt towards Arabs in Palestine.
Charles de Gaulle, up until the Six Day War, demonstrated great understanding and support for Israel. This thoughtful and highly individualistic statesman felt an instinctive sympathy for the struggle of the Jews, but the Six Day War caused him to alter France's policies towards the Jewish state.
The Six Day War was a much darker and more complex affair than it is portrayed in official Israeli myths. The war was not simply an attack by a gang of Arab states against Israel--a description which suggests not just Goliath, but the entire tribe of Philistines, attacking little David with his slingshot. While this is an appealing image, naturally arousing great sympathy in American Puritans raised on the Old Testament, it is not an accurate one. A fine Jewish scholar like Avi Shlaim, a specialist in the first half century of Israeli policy, recognizing that not all important documents bearing on the matter have been released, agrees there are doubts and ambiguities here rather than light and darkness.
Before the Six Day War, David Ben Gurion made it clear to de Gaulle and other western leaders that Israel wanted more land to absorb migrants. Before the war, Israel also high-handedly diverted water from the Jordan river, a hostile act in a water-short region and the kind of thing that caused more than one "range war" in America's Southwest.
A very tense situation arose with a surge in Soviet armaments to Arab states, although any knowledgeable observer understood that Israel continued to hold the upper hand in any potential conflict. A major diplomatic mission was undertaken by Abba Eban to gather support for Israel's intended violent response to Egypt's blockade of the Straits of Tiran. Just as we now have Bush's obdurate, hasty demand for war with Iraq, Eban made it clear that Israel had no stomach for diplomacy to end the blockade. The blockade meant war.
De Gaulle made a remarkably prescient observation to the Israeli government: "If Israel is attacked, we shall not let her be destroyed, but if you attack, we shall condemn your initiative. Of course, I have no doubt that you will have military successes in the event of war, but afterwards, you would find yourself committed on the terrain, and from the international point of view, in increasing difficulties, especially as war in the East cannot fail to increase a deplorable tension in the world, so that it will be you, having become the conquerors, who will gradually be blamed for the inconveniences."
De Gaulle also understood that Israel's behavior was nourishing nationalistic aspirations on the part of the Palestinians, a development Israel either greatly underestimated or chose to ignore, perhaps reflecting the arrogance of those supported by great power towards those without power. De Gaulle's advice was, of course, ignored. Israel managed easily to overwhelm the Arab states, as its leaders had known it would, and it has occupied a good portion of the territories seized ever since. It has ignored many quiet diplomatic voices on this matter. It has stood in contempt of UN resolutions for years. It has suffered innumerable guerilla attacks and launched innumerable reprisals, even starting a bloody war in Lebanon complete with atrocities. Israel finally came to toy with the notion of a Palestinian state but never made the genuine effort or concessions necessary to see this become a reality. It has, in short, fulfilled de Gaulle's warning of trouble more than thirty years ago.
The 9/11 attack on America, coming under the administration of perhaps the most aimless, blundering, and least informed president in American history, was a godsend for Israel's belligerent policy. The people Israel has occupied and mistreated for a third of a century are regarded by this American president as something akin to al Qaeda. We have even had trial balloons released by Republican figures like Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Armey concerning Israel's right to hold the land and drive out its people, although it is possible these represent pre-assault softening-up by Washington to make Palestinians grateful for a second pathetic offer of statehood now in the works, pathetic because it is impossible to imagine anything else being blessed by both Bush and Sharon.
Perhaps most revealing of the moral state to which Israel has been reduced since the Six Day War were preparations for Mr. Bush's war on Iraq. All Israeli citizens were issued gas masks. A debate and legal moves centered around whether foreign workers, of which there are large numbers, should also receive gas masks. If they wanted gas masks, they must rent or buy them, and the masks available for rental were those considered as expired and unsuitable for Israelis. In families of mixed marriages, apparently spouses who remain unregistered under Israel's now more restrictive registration requirements, do not receive gas masks. Most Palestinians under Israeli occupation are not issued gas masks, it being considered the responsibility of the broken Palestinian Authority, almost without resources, to look after this.
There is something especially repugnant in establishing a hierarchy of people whose safety should be the responsibility of the state, and the various adjustments made to this hierarchy in the face of criticism hardly reflect humane policies.
In recent months, not a week passes in which Israel's army does not kill fifteen or twenty Palestinians. Often, this many are killed in a day or two. These killings are generally reported as the deaths of "militants," although we have no way of determining the legitimacy of that term. We do know that quite a number of people who cannot possibly be characterized as militants, including women and children and peaceful foreign observers, have been killed by Israeli soldiers. Of course, even those who might justifiably be called militants are in their view only putting up a pathetic defense of their homes against Merkava tanks and Apache helicopters.
The assassination of suspected terrorists is now an accepted, ordinary event in Palestine, and Mr. Bush has granted Israel the right to extend this violence to America territory. Mr. Sharon's secret services have conducted scores of assassinations. Perhaps assassination is the wrong word since it is generally used to describe the killing of a high-level political opponent. Mr. Sharon's bloody work is precisely that of a police force murdering, instead of arresting, criminal suspects by the score.
At this writing, as America bombs and burns its way through Iraq, Israel has again rolled out its bulldozers and tanks into Gaza--killing, wrecking, and making many improper arrests. Most horrifying is what Israel is doing to Bedouin farmers in the Negev desert. Israel has used crop dusters spraying poisonous chemicals to destroy the Bedouin crops. The charge is that they are illegal squatters--a remarkable accusation coming from those who still hold lands seized in 1967 and regularly build new settlements on them for brand-new, heavily-armed immigrants.
Defenders of Israel's excesses in the United States have been driven to advocate policies as chilling as creating a legal framework for torturing terrorist suspects in the United States and Israel's undertaking the cold-blooded reprisal killing of the families of desperate suicide bombers. These are powerful measures of the corrupting long-term effects of the Six Day War and Israel's determination to retain control over much or all of the seized land.
Regrettably, Einstein appears to have been right about what Israel had the potential for becoming. No person of principle can support Israel's present policies, and I believe there is little doubt that would include Einstein had he lived. Perhaps it is just as well he did not.
John Chuckman lives in Canada. He can be reached at: chuckman [at] counterpunch.org
We are not communicating.
Let's leave aside for the moment the peculiar use being made of the word "racism" to cover ethnic and/or tribal identification where there masy be no racial component whatsoever (people SEEM to be using the word the same way the Nazis did -- or most Europeans in the 19th century).
It is irrelevant to the point I am trying to make whether you consider "tribalism" good or bad. In other words, there is no usefulness to the "my tribe right or wrong" statement. It doesn't matter that you and I put different values upon MY survival and/or the survival of MY tribe. It doesn't matter that you think it wrong that I would rule out a "solution" to some problem that didn't include our survival as a people -- I don't give a damn about whethert you think I am being selfish.
I am simply trying to tell you that's how it is. I am telling you that IF you polarize the situation, IF you force me to choose between the "the progressive agenda" and my own survival I will choose to live and the agenda be damned. I am simply telling you (well all progressives) to keep this in mind when making YOUR decisions. ALL I am saying is make your choices with eyes open and based upon what is, not upon what should be (in your opinion).
If I didn't care about the progressive agenda I wouldn't bother writing this. Think about that a little. I'm not saying that it'd be a happy decision if forced to choose. Just trying to pass on a "warning" that push come to shove, "tribal solidarity" will win out .
Let's leave aside for the moment the peculiar use being made of the word "racism" to cover ethnic and/or tribal identification where there masy be no racial component whatsoever (people SEEM to be using the word the same way the Nazis did -- or most Europeans in the 19th century).
It is irrelevant to the point I am trying to make whether you consider "tribalism" good or bad. In other words, there is no usefulness to the "my tribe right or wrong" statement. It doesn't matter that you and I put different values upon MY survival and/or the survival of MY tribe. It doesn't matter that you think it wrong that I would rule out a "solution" to some problem that didn't include our survival as a people -- I don't give a damn about whethert you think I am being selfish.
I am simply trying to tell you that's how it is. I am telling you that IF you polarize the situation, IF you force me to choose between the "the progressive agenda" and my own survival I will choose to live and the agenda be damned. I am simply telling you (well all progressives) to keep this in mind when making YOUR decisions. ALL I am saying is make your choices with eyes open and based upon what is, not upon what should be (in your opinion).
If I didn't care about the progressive agenda I wouldn't bother writing this. Think about that a little. I'm not saying that it'd be a happy decision if forced to choose. Just trying to pass on a "warning" that push come to shove, "tribal solidarity" will win out .
--"...IF you force me to choose between the "the progressive agenda" and my own survival I will choose to live..."
That's just it though. This has nothing to do with your "survival." It has to do with right and wrong.
Most people on here may be white christians but they don't subscribe to the idea of white separatists who also think their "survival" is at stake.
That whites or Jews survival is at stake is a hysterical concept put forth in order to make everyone sympathize with an injustice that one could not normally sympathize with. For whites, that is obvious.
In the real world, if anyone's "survival" is at stake, it is the Arabs who have a nuclear armed Israel which is not finished expanding its borders as a neighbor (not to mention the Palestinians who are being ethnically cleansed or the Iraqis who have faced genocidal sanctions, bombings, and anarchy). And thanks to Zionist influenced news and movies, many in the US (the most powerful country in the world) have been duped into believing the ugly stereotypes and horrible portrayals of Arabs and are ready to accept using nuclear weapons against them.
In any case, anti-Zionists are talking about *equality for all* in what is now Israel/Palestine. Zionists refer to this as the destruction of Israel -- they live in morbid fear of the "demographic timebomb" (Palestinian people) and of equality and one man one vote (aka real democracy).
So, "the destruction of Israel" as Zionists hysterically call it is really just Equality for ALL which most people in the world would agree with. But this is unacceptable to Zionists who prefer a state in which they have superior rights (even to others peoples' homes and property). This is no different than white supremacists who claim that their survival is at stake but have as a real agenda superior rights for whites only.
That's just it though. This has nothing to do with your "survival." It has to do with right and wrong.
Most people on here may be white christians but they don't subscribe to the idea of white separatists who also think their "survival" is at stake.
That whites or Jews survival is at stake is a hysterical concept put forth in order to make everyone sympathize with an injustice that one could not normally sympathize with. For whites, that is obvious.
In the real world, if anyone's "survival" is at stake, it is the Arabs who have a nuclear armed Israel which is not finished expanding its borders as a neighbor (not to mention the Palestinians who are being ethnically cleansed or the Iraqis who have faced genocidal sanctions, bombings, and anarchy). And thanks to Zionist influenced news and movies, many in the US (the most powerful country in the world) have been duped into believing the ugly stereotypes and horrible portrayals of Arabs and are ready to accept using nuclear weapons against them.
In any case, anti-Zionists are talking about *equality for all* in what is now Israel/Palestine. Zionists refer to this as the destruction of Israel -- they live in morbid fear of the "demographic timebomb" (Palestinian people) and of equality and one man one vote (aka real democracy).
So, "the destruction of Israel" as Zionists hysterically call it is really just Equality for ALL which most people in the world would agree with. But this is unacceptable to Zionists who prefer a state in which they have superior rights (even to others peoples' homes and property). This is no different than white supremacists who claim that their survival is at stake but have as a real agenda superior rights for whites only.
"It has to do with right and wrong."
Rather, it has to do with those in the progressive movement who have arrogated upon themselves the right to declare via fiat what the True Dogma shall be -- as you do here, when you speak of right and wrong as if you could define them on a case by case basis and you were the 21st century Solomon -- and then condemn those they alienate for their failure to adhere to the True Dogma.
Remember, folks -- Palestine good, Israel baa-aa-aad. That's all you need to know.
@%<
Rather, it has to do with those in the progressive movement who have arrogated upon themselves the right to declare via fiat what the True Dogma shall be -- as you do here, when you speak of right and wrong as if you could define them on a case by case basis and you were the 21st century Solomon -- and then condemn those they alienate for their failure to adhere to the True Dogma.
Remember, folks -- Palestine good, Israel baa-aa-aad. That's all you need to know.
@%<
As I recall from history in the bible, David's son did not turn out very good. Was he not responsible for building many of the high places for idol worship. If he really got wisdom from God, he must have suppressed it.
Just food for thought
Just food for thought
There are basic human norms which dictate right and wrong.
For instance, stealing people's homes along with their belongings and living in them as though they were yours is wrong. Israelis do this even today to Christian and Muslim Palestinians within because it is sanctioned under Israeli law. Paying for one group of people's ability to do that (as we taxpayers here in the US do) is wrong.
For instance, stealing people's homes along with their belongings and living in them as though they were yours is wrong. Israelis do this even today to Christian and Muslim Palestinians within because it is sanctioned under Israeli law. Paying for one group of people's ability to do that (as we taxpayers here in the US do) is wrong.
You have a VERY narrow concept of what it means to be human. Universal norms indeed. Why I could list many human cultures and many periods in history of our own culture (that is YOURS/MINE) which did not recognize anything wrong with dispossessing a weaker neighboring people of their property --- if you were an American Indian you would know that.
"Norms" are what people do (not how you imagine they SHOULD do). I would argue that most humans throughout most of human history have not followed this "norm" of yours. PLEASE -- I am not saying that wise people, ethical teachers, religious teachers, etc. have not been telling us to act better, to "do what is right", etc. Just that by and large we have been doing a damned poor job of following this instruction. Or at least the "strong" do. The weak claim to be following this "norm" of yours by I am rather cynical about that (those grapes surely were sour).
"Norms" are what people do (not how you imagine they SHOULD do). I would argue that most humans throughout most of human history have not followed this "norm" of yours. PLEASE -- I am not saying that wise people, ethical teachers, religious teachers, etc. have not been telling us to act better, to "do what is right", etc. Just that by and large we have been doing a damned poor job of following this instruction. Or at least the "strong" do. The weak claim to be following this "norm" of yours by I am rather cynical about that (those grapes surely were sour).
Funny how Zionists almost invariably defend what they've done to Palestinians by bringing up some of the worst episodes in human history -- like the ethnic cleansing of native Americans.
It would seem like anyone trying to defend their country would try to distance themselves from some of these worst moments in history, yet they embrace it as a way of justifying what they are currently doing today in modern times.
Israel is still in this day and age, ethnically cleansing Palestinians from their ancestral homeland and they've got us flipping their bills so they can do it. That's the reason for bringing up American Indians -- it's a way of saying "your forefathers did it too, so shut up about our genocide and just keep giving us your tax dollars so we can do the same."
I for one don't want to keep paying their bills so they can do this to the Palestinian indigenous people. A good argument against aiding Israel, in fact, is what we did to the native Indians. To make sure this doesn't happen again with our consent, we should give that tax money and weapons to Palestinians instead so that they can finally defend themselves from this colonial settler society.
It would seem like anyone trying to defend their country would try to distance themselves from some of these worst moments in history, yet they embrace it as a way of justifying what they are currently doing today in modern times.
Israel is still in this day and age, ethnically cleansing Palestinians from their ancestral homeland and they've got us flipping their bills so they can do it. That's the reason for bringing up American Indians -- it's a way of saying "your forefathers did it too, so shut up about our genocide and just keep giving us your tax dollars so we can do the same."
I for one don't want to keep paying their bills so they can do this to the Palestinian indigenous people. A good argument against aiding Israel, in fact, is what we did to the native Indians. To make sure this doesn't happen again with our consent, we should give that tax money and weapons to Palestinians instead so that they can finally defend themselves from this colonial settler society.
We now have an opportunity to make amends for what we did to Native Americans by helping another native people (Palestinians) against a similarly brutal colonial settler society (Israel) intent on robbing them of what little land they have left.
I was clearly objecting to your use of the term "norms".
I was not arguing "two wrongs make a right".
But take a CLOSE look at what YOU just said. You want to make it up for "your" having stolen the land of the American Indians by helping a different indigenous people against those you see as foreign invaders dispossessing them? (I might challenge the idea that the "invaders" aren't also indigenous).
UH -- last time I looked those Indians whom "you" disposessed still had survivors around. Ever occurred to you that before you talk about somebody else needing to give back what they stole you might need to do that yourself. And if you don't feel that incumbent upon yourself why the heck should I consider your argument that I do so incumbent upon me. In other words, I call you a hypocrite. You DON'T actually believe in this "norm" you claim to be universal, don't believe it applies to yourself, only to those whom you do not at the moment care for.
I was not arguing "two wrongs make a right".
But take a CLOSE look at what YOU just said. You want to make it up for "your" having stolen the land of the American Indians by helping a different indigenous people against those you see as foreign invaders dispossessing them? (I might challenge the idea that the "invaders" aren't also indigenous).
UH -- last time I looked those Indians whom "you" disposessed still had survivors around. Ever occurred to you that before you talk about somebody else needing to give back what they stole you might need to do that yourself. And if you don't feel that incumbent upon yourself why the heck should I consider your argument that I do so incumbent upon me. In other words, I call you a hypocrite. You DON'T actually believe in this "norm" you claim to be universal, don't believe it applies to yourself, only to those whom you do not at the moment care for.
Just like usual, Zionists love to create diversions and misdirection to justify their own atrocities.
Israelis are still robbing Palestinians of their land and we are paying for it. We should at least stop paying for it or better yet, help the Palestinians -- the people whose survival is really at stake against the latest colonial settlers (the Israelis).
I definitely believe reparations ought to be made to native Americans as well as African Americans. I also think Israel ought to be forced by the international community to pay reparations to the Palestinians for all the damage it has caused their society.
The ideal solution is one state where both peoples have equal rights and in which those dispossessed are compensated. That also applies here.
Israelis are still robbing Palestinians of their land and we are paying for it. We should at least stop paying for it or better yet, help the Palestinians -- the people whose survival is really at stake against the latest colonial settlers (the Israelis).
I definitely believe reparations ought to be made to native Americans as well as African Americans. I also think Israel ought to be forced by the international community to pay reparations to the Palestinians for all the damage it has caused their society.
The ideal solution is one state where both peoples have equal rights and in which those dispossessed are compensated. That also applies here.
Imagine what type of "human being" intentionally blows up a bus full of innocent people, and imagine what type of sick bastard organization proudly takes credit for doing it.
That's the type of sick fiends israel is up against.
JERUSALEM, Aug. 19 - A Palestinian suicide bomber killed at least 18 people, including children, when he detonated an explosive packed with ball bearings tonight aboard a city bus crowded with families, some of them returning from Judaism's holiest site, the Western Wall.
The blast resounded across Jerusalem as it peeled up the roof of the bus and blew out its windows, smearing human remains on a preceding tour bus and opening a deep wound in the American-backed peace effort.
More than 100 people were reported hurt, many seriously, in one of the deadliest attacks in almost three years of conflict. Men carrying blood-spattered children raced toward approaching ambulances. On a street strewn with broken glass and bloodied sheet metal, a man knelt near the shattered bus to perform mouth-to-mouth resuscitation on a toddler.
Later, in a hospital here, Yaacov Bahar, 35, held his hands in the air in front of him, as though he were still carrying an infant, as he described helping bring four children from the bus.
``In my eyes, I'm still seeing the nightmare,'' said Mr. Bahar, who was being treated for shock.
Breaking off security talks tonight, Israel froze all contacts with the Palestinian leadership after the bombing.
A senior Israeli official said Israel would probably seal Palestinians into their cities and towns again on Wednesday, re-imposing tight travel restrictions that had been loosened somewhat as the peace effort took hold in recent weeks.
The attack tonight was claimed by members of both Hamas and Islamic Jihad. The Israeli police said the bomber was from Hamas.
Palestinian and Israeli officers had been discussing how Palestinian forces would assume responsibility from Israel for policing two West Bank cities, continuing an exchange of control called for by the peace plan, known as the road map.
But Israeli officials reacted to the bombing with fury tonight, and expressed frustration toward a peace plan they said was endangering their security.
``Israel cannot be the perpetual testing ground for peace proposals that the Palestinians fail to implement,'' said Dore Gold, an adviser to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.
In Gaza City, the Palestinian prime minister, Mahmoud Abbas, told reporters, ``I declare my strong condemnation of this horrible act that doesn't serve the interests of the Palestinian people.'' Mr. Abbas said he offered ``my real sorrow'' to the families of the victims. sv29,1if,,v29 Israeli officials noted that Israel had recently softened its own demands on the Palestinian leadership, insisting only that it supervise the people Israel considers terrorists and prevent them from committing new attacks, rather than putting them in jail. The bombing tonight appeared certain to renew Israeli and American pressure on Mr. Abbas, to take more forceful action against militant groups.
Mr. Abbas said he had ordered his minister of security, Muhammad Dahlan, ``to immediately investigate this attack and to take the necessary measures regarding its perpetrators.''
Mr. Abbas and Mr. Dahlan have resisted taking action against militants, seeking instead to persuade them to abide by a unilateral suspension of attacks on Israelis declared on June 29. The bombing tonight occurred as Mr. Abbas was meeting in Gaza City with leaders of Islamic Jihad in an attempt to extend the cease-fire, which was to last three months.
Mr. Abbas was scheduled to meet on Wednesday with leaders of Hamas, but he canceled that meeting after the bombing.
Since June 29, Hamas has claimed responsibility for only one other lethal suicide bombing, killing one Israeli a week ago in stated retaliation for Israel's killing days earlier of two Hamas militants. Saying that terrorists are using their declared cease-fire to re-arm, Israel has continued to raid Palestinian towns and cities in recent weeks for what it says are wanted terrorists.
In a videotaped statement, the bomber who committed the attack tonight attributed it primarily to an incident that took place before the cease-fire was declared, the army's killing in June of a local Hamas leader in Hebron.
Fireworks burst over Hebron tonight as Palestinians there celebrated the bombing.
Militants from Islamic Jihad and the Hamas submitted competing claims of responsibility for the attack. Although political leaders of Hamas in the Gaza Strip denied any link to the bombing, the Israeli police, which recovered an identity card of the bomber at the scene, said that he was connected to Hamas. ``He's identified as Hamas,'' said Superintendent Gil Kleiman, a police spokesman. He said that it was possible the two groups were acting together.
In the West Bank city of Hebron, a Hamas cell released a printed statement claiming the attack, as well as a videotape of the man that Israel said carried it out.
In the videotape, the man identified as the bomber, Raed Abdul Hamid Misk, 29, appeared with a rifle in one hand and a Koran in the other. ``We are proud to offer ourselves and our lives and our houses as a present to this religion,'' he said in Arabic. Switching to English, he said, ``The people of Palestine commit themselves to cease-fire, but the criminal Sharon refused this commitment and killed many people in Palestine.''
Mr. Misk was working toward a master's degree from A-Najah university in the West Bank city of Nablus, his family said.
Mr. Misk left behind two children and a wife, Arij Joubeh, in the sixth month of pregnancy. She said of her husband, ``All his life he was saying, `Oh God, I wish to be a martyr.'''
Members of Mr. Misk's extended family were hastily removing possessions from their family home tonight in anticipation of its demolition by Israeli forces, a standard Israeli reprisal for suicide attacks.
Mr. Misk detonated his explosive about 9:15 p.m. near the middle of the articulated No. 2 bus. The bus had just crossed the boundary from east Jerusalem, which Israel occupied in the 1967 war, and had entered the west Jerusalem neighborhood of Shmuel Hanavi, home to devoutly religious Jews.
On March 2, 2002, a suicide bomber struck about a block away, killing nine Israelis, including six children.
There were many children aboard the bus this evening, survivors said. Zvi Weiss, 18, a seminary student from Borough Park, Brooklyn, said he was sitting in the second row, squeezed in with three children. One of the children had been left in a vacant seat by his mother, who then pushed the baby carriage toward the back of the bus, he said.
``His mother was in the back, so I think - I don't know what to think,'' Mr. Weiss said. He said he leaped through a window and ran as the explosion enveloped him in ``smoke, noise, the smell of fire.'' He was being treated in Bikur Holim hospital for shrapnel wounds to his arms, which had stained his white shirtsleeves crimson. He was having trouble hearing, a common difficulty of bombing victims.
Yehiya Luria, 38, said the bus was ``so full that you couldn't have put a pin in there.'' He said he was seated at the far back, and also escaped through a window. ``There was a lot of blood on me - blood, bits of flesh, teeth, hair,'' he said. He was being treated for shock.
``It was a miracle,'' he said of his survival. ``I prayed at the Western Wall today.''
Nearby, a 2-year-old boy lay in another hospital bed, holding a white blanket and a foil bag of snacks as he sucked on a red pacifier and silently watched the bustling ward. His aunt said he had been riding in a sedan that smashed into the back of the bus, and that he was slightly wounded. She said his name was Abraham.
Initial reports by the authorities were that five children were among the dead. The police reported removing 18 bodies from the bus. The bodies and body parts were enclosed in black or white plastic bags, which were placed in a traffic circle among three small trees. Investigators opened the bags to take photographs of the dead to identify them.
Generators hummed as emergency workers in the harsh white glare of portable lamps scoured the red-and-white bus for the remains of the dead. In the shadows, hundreds of young men in the white shirts and broad-brimmed black hats of the devoutly religious gathered on the sidewalks and rooftops, outside a police cordon, to survey the scene.
Three hours after the bombing, a spokeswoman for another hospital, Haddassah Ein-Kerem, said no one had claimed a month-old baby boy brought from the scene, raising the possibility that his parents had been killed.
``He is a very sweet 4-week-old baby boy,'' the spokeswoman, Yael Bosem-Levy, told Israel Radio. ``He has light injuries. He has impact wounds to his stomach, and the entire time he has been here he didn't cry even once.''
That's the type of sick fiends israel is up against.
JERUSALEM, Aug. 19 - A Palestinian suicide bomber killed at least 18 people, including children, when he detonated an explosive packed with ball bearings tonight aboard a city bus crowded with families, some of them returning from Judaism's holiest site, the Western Wall.
The blast resounded across Jerusalem as it peeled up the roof of the bus and blew out its windows, smearing human remains on a preceding tour bus and opening a deep wound in the American-backed peace effort.
More than 100 people were reported hurt, many seriously, in one of the deadliest attacks in almost three years of conflict. Men carrying blood-spattered children raced toward approaching ambulances. On a street strewn with broken glass and bloodied sheet metal, a man knelt near the shattered bus to perform mouth-to-mouth resuscitation on a toddler.
Later, in a hospital here, Yaacov Bahar, 35, held his hands in the air in front of him, as though he were still carrying an infant, as he described helping bring four children from the bus.
``In my eyes, I'm still seeing the nightmare,'' said Mr. Bahar, who was being treated for shock.
Breaking off security talks tonight, Israel froze all contacts with the Palestinian leadership after the bombing.
A senior Israeli official said Israel would probably seal Palestinians into their cities and towns again on Wednesday, re-imposing tight travel restrictions that had been loosened somewhat as the peace effort took hold in recent weeks.
The attack tonight was claimed by members of both Hamas and Islamic Jihad. The Israeli police said the bomber was from Hamas.
Palestinian and Israeli officers had been discussing how Palestinian forces would assume responsibility from Israel for policing two West Bank cities, continuing an exchange of control called for by the peace plan, known as the road map.
But Israeli officials reacted to the bombing with fury tonight, and expressed frustration toward a peace plan they said was endangering their security.
``Israel cannot be the perpetual testing ground for peace proposals that the Palestinians fail to implement,'' said Dore Gold, an adviser to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.
In Gaza City, the Palestinian prime minister, Mahmoud Abbas, told reporters, ``I declare my strong condemnation of this horrible act that doesn't serve the interests of the Palestinian people.'' Mr. Abbas said he offered ``my real sorrow'' to the families of the victims. sv29,1if,,v29 Israeli officials noted that Israel had recently softened its own demands on the Palestinian leadership, insisting only that it supervise the people Israel considers terrorists and prevent them from committing new attacks, rather than putting them in jail. The bombing tonight appeared certain to renew Israeli and American pressure on Mr. Abbas, to take more forceful action against militant groups.
Mr. Abbas said he had ordered his minister of security, Muhammad Dahlan, ``to immediately investigate this attack and to take the necessary measures regarding its perpetrators.''
Mr. Abbas and Mr. Dahlan have resisted taking action against militants, seeking instead to persuade them to abide by a unilateral suspension of attacks on Israelis declared on June 29. The bombing tonight occurred as Mr. Abbas was meeting in Gaza City with leaders of Islamic Jihad in an attempt to extend the cease-fire, which was to last three months.
Mr. Abbas was scheduled to meet on Wednesday with leaders of Hamas, but he canceled that meeting after the bombing.
Since June 29, Hamas has claimed responsibility for only one other lethal suicide bombing, killing one Israeli a week ago in stated retaliation for Israel's killing days earlier of two Hamas militants. Saying that terrorists are using their declared cease-fire to re-arm, Israel has continued to raid Palestinian towns and cities in recent weeks for what it says are wanted terrorists.
In a videotaped statement, the bomber who committed the attack tonight attributed it primarily to an incident that took place before the cease-fire was declared, the army's killing in June of a local Hamas leader in Hebron.
Fireworks burst over Hebron tonight as Palestinians there celebrated the bombing.
Militants from Islamic Jihad and the Hamas submitted competing claims of responsibility for the attack. Although political leaders of Hamas in the Gaza Strip denied any link to the bombing, the Israeli police, which recovered an identity card of the bomber at the scene, said that he was connected to Hamas. ``He's identified as Hamas,'' said Superintendent Gil Kleiman, a police spokesman. He said that it was possible the two groups were acting together.
In the West Bank city of Hebron, a Hamas cell released a printed statement claiming the attack, as well as a videotape of the man that Israel said carried it out.
In the videotape, the man identified as the bomber, Raed Abdul Hamid Misk, 29, appeared with a rifle in one hand and a Koran in the other. ``We are proud to offer ourselves and our lives and our houses as a present to this religion,'' he said in Arabic. Switching to English, he said, ``The people of Palestine commit themselves to cease-fire, but the criminal Sharon refused this commitment and killed many people in Palestine.''
Mr. Misk was working toward a master's degree from A-Najah university in the West Bank city of Nablus, his family said.
Mr. Misk left behind two children and a wife, Arij Joubeh, in the sixth month of pregnancy. She said of her husband, ``All his life he was saying, `Oh God, I wish to be a martyr.'''
Members of Mr. Misk's extended family were hastily removing possessions from their family home tonight in anticipation of its demolition by Israeli forces, a standard Israeli reprisal for suicide attacks.
Mr. Misk detonated his explosive about 9:15 p.m. near the middle of the articulated No. 2 bus. The bus had just crossed the boundary from east Jerusalem, which Israel occupied in the 1967 war, and had entered the west Jerusalem neighborhood of Shmuel Hanavi, home to devoutly religious Jews.
On March 2, 2002, a suicide bomber struck about a block away, killing nine Israelis, including six children.
There were many children aboard the bus this evening, survivors said. Zvi Weiss, 18, a seminary student from Borough Park, Brooklyn, said he was sitting in the second row, squeezed in with three children. One of the children had been left in a vacant seat by his mother, who then pushed the baby carriage toward the back of the bus, he said.
``His mother was in the back, so I think - I don't know what to think,'' Mr. Weiss said. He said he leaped through a window and ran as the explosion enveloped him in ``smoke, noise, the smell of fire.'' He was being treated in Bikur Holim hospital for shrapnel wounds to his arms, which had stained his white shirtsleeves crimson. He was having trouble hearing, a common difficulty of bombing victims.
Yehiya Luria, 38, said the bus was ``so full that you couldn't have put a pin in there.'' He said he was seated at the far back, and also escaped through a window. ``There was a lot of blood on me - blood, bits of flesh, teeth, hair,'' he said. He was being treated for shock.
``It was a miracle,'' he said of his survival. ``I prayed at the Western Wall today.''
Nearby, a 2-year-old boy lay in another hospital bed, holding a white blanket and a foil bag of snacks as he sucked on a red pacifier and silently watched the bustling ward. His aunt said he had been riding in a sedan that smashed into the back of the bus, and that he was slightly wounded. She said his name was Abraham.
Initial reports by the authorities were that five children were among the dead. The police reported removing 18 bodies from the bus. The bodies and body parts were enclosed in black or white plastic bags, which were placed in a traffic circle among three small trees. Investigators opened the bags to take photographs of the dead to identify them.
Generators hummed as emergency workers in the harsh white glare of portable lamps scoured the red-and-white bus for the remains of the dead. In the shadows, hundreds of young men in the white shirts and broad-brimmed black hats of the devoutly religious gathered on the sidewalks and rooftops, outside a police cordon, to survey the scene.
Three hours after the bombing, a spokeswoman for another hospital, Haddassah Ein-Kerem, said no one had claimed a month-old baby boy brought from the scene, raising the possibility that his parents had been killed.
``He is a very sweet 4-week-old baby boy,'' the spokeswoman, Yael Bosem-Levy, told Israel Radio. ``He has light injuries. He has impact wounds to his stomach, and the entire time he has been here he didn't cry even once.''
I want to send ALL the Jews to Israel!
Imagine what type of so-called "human beings" intentionally push a savage lunatic ideology that required the expulsion of between three-quarters-of-a-million to a million Palestinians from their lands, and then lied about it, claiming there had been no such people to begin with (as with Golda Meir's infamous quip), and imagine what type of sick bastard ideology (a bastard of Nazism) and sick nation proudly takes credit for doing it: Zionism and Israel. A nation that drops bombs from helicopter gunships and advanced fighter aircraft to kill civilians (women, children, babies, the elderly, and innocent men), in Nazi-style "collective punishment", even in UN refugee camps. (Partly paraphrased from Tim Wise: "Reflections on Zionism from a Dissident Jew", available online.)
That's the type of sick fiends Palestinians are up against. Zionists, ironically (after the Nazis and the Holocaust), Jews who terrorized, massacred, exterminated and ethnically cleansed their way into a state.
That's the type of sick fiends Palestinians are up against. Zionists, ironically (after the Nazis and the Holocaust), Jews who terrorized, massacred, exterminated and ethnically cleansed their way into a state.
After perusing over the thought of Gehrig, I conclude that he has a certain literary affinity with the famed literary figure,Samuel Johnson. However, that is not to conclude that he tends to illustrate his point as well as Johnson did. I only begin to state this similarity because of the fabulous sentence in which Mr. Gehrig concludes his thought about a previous post. It is wrong on behalf of Mr. Gehrig to suggest that just because a post differs from his well established viewpoint that anohter viewpoint does not have credence. Where does Mr. Gehrig obtain his orthodox view? It is my contention that because a belief is popular, it does not follow that it is true.
There are several sides to the situation that currently exists in Israel( or occupied Palestine)
There are several sides to the situation that currently exists in Israel( or occupied Palestine)
The land of Palestine is occupied. Whether our not it is or was a state is irrelevent.
Israel is going to make damn sure there won't be a Palestinian state just as it has ensured same for the past fifty plus years.
By the way, CT, in case my head improves any, where is your "solution"? I can't seem to remembe which thread it is under, and I did promise I'd deal with it today.
The next thing you'll be coming on here saying that the Palestinians were the ones who committed the holacaust.
Read what you said, man. You are, indeed, a bit vicious to say the least. I'm not impressed. No one should be impressed.
Anyway I will find out where your "solution" is on my own.
Non-Critical Thinkifier: ""Palestine" (the disputed territories) is not occupied per international law."
JA: Even Sharon recently admitted that it was "Occupied Territories".
I guess that NCT doesn't get TV in his bunker.
JA: Even Sharon recently admitted that it was "Occupied Territories".
I guess that NCT doesn't get TV in his bunker.
There is a decent question regarding why gaza and west bank (for example) are grouped together unless the reason is "they both happen to have been captured by Israel." and as a result are bound by some sort of a "we hate israel" pact.
Same thing for the terrorist or militant groups.
Same thing for the terrorist or militant groups.
I watch BBC News World from London, England, not Canada, and if BBC is biased, it's biased in favour of Israel. Of course, if it weren't, it wouldn't take long for someone to start yelling "anti semitic" (as has happened so often not only with BBC but all international news outlets). Sooner or later it happens to everyone. A marvellous way to keep TV and print media from exposing the realities of life in the occupied territories.
Tonight, for instance, everyone was prattling on about what Abbas should do, etc. Not one word was said about what Israel should do. It's this kind of utter one-sidedness that sickens me.
And there was GWBush going on about freezing Hamas' assets; no mention, of course, of the 3 billioin a year (or more) the US provides Israel so it can get its weapons to annililate Palestinians. Why doesn't Europe freeze the assets of Israel, pray tell, so it can't continue adding to its deathly arsenal.
Certainly our CBC has come under criticism from the Friends of Israel (or whatever they're calling themselves these days). Poor Neil MacDonald, former correspondent for five years, was constantly vilified because he dared report on a dead Palestinian body that he had to step over in the street close to a Palestinian hovel.
What about us, they'd wail. The fact that Neil did a masterful job covering both sides of this nasty mess went unnoticed by the Friends of Israel however, and they used to flood the CBC with complaints. Again, the norm!
Blessedly for those of us who want honest reporting, the CBC refused to remove him from his post for which we give thanks indeed.. But can you believe the nerve? Telling our own national news station what to do? Who to hire? This is not the US, for heavens sakes.
After all, it is OUR tv network, the people of Canada as a whole not a few.
Just once, however, I'd love to see a news cast with no coverage of this hell hole.. When you consider the horrors of the world in general the coverage given this conflict is totally disproportionate.
Maybe some of the intelligent folk on the board can tell us why is this so.
Wow, Angie's really fallen off the deep end.
It's worse than I thought.
It's not anti-semitic to make valid political criticisms of Israel. However, there are tons of anti-semites out there who single Israel out in absurd, excessive fashion while intentionally not applying the same standards of criticism to other countries who are blatantly far more guilty of the accusations. And, people who demonize every aspect of what "zionism" means, and people who exaggerate everything wrong that Israel does do, are usually anti-semites who don't have the guts to come out and admit it.
Obviously some people, jewish or not, anti-semitic or not, are insane, or ignorant. But in general, the average person who takes what the little jewish nation does and intentionally lies or exaggerates and obsessively demonizes it without any sense of reason or reality usually turns out to be a closet anti-semite. And closet anti-semites are often the loudest in complaining about the "anti-semitic" label.
Valid criticism of Israel's government or politics is fine.
Insane ranting and exaggeration and lies about israel and zionism is usually committed by ignorant morons, or anti-semites who are singling Israel out because it's jewish.
King Hussein of JOrdan killed more palestinians in ONE MONTH ("black september" 1970) then Israel has in the last 20 years.
Why did Jordan kill all those palestinians? Because palesitnians, while terrorizing Israel, were also trying to take over Jordan (which should really be called "Palestine" since 80% of "historic palsetine" is now Jordan).
It's worse than I thought.
It's not anti-semitic to make valid political criticisms of Israel. However, there are tons of anti-semites out there who single Israel out in absurd, excessive fashion while intentionally not applying the same standards of criticism to other countries who are blatantly far more guilty of the accusations. And, people who demonize every aspect of what "zionism" means, and people who exaggerate everything wrong that Israel does do, are usually anti-semites who don't have the guts to come out and admit it.
Obviously some people, jewish or not, anti-semitic or not, are insane, or ignorant. But in general, the average person who takes what the little jewish nation does and intentionally lies or exaggerates and obsessively demonizes it without any sense of reason or reality usually turns out to be a closet anti-semite. And closet anti-semites are often the loudest in complaining about the "anti-semitic" label.
Valid criticism of Israel's government or politics is fine.
Insane ranting and exaggeration and lies about israel and zionism is usually committed by ignorant morons, or anti-semites who are singling Israel out because it's jewish.
King Hussein of JOrdan killed more palestinians in ONE MONTH ("black september" 1970) then Israel has in the last 20 years.
Why did Jordan kill all those palestinians? Because palesitnians, while terrorizing Israel, were also trying to take over Jordan (which should really be called "Palestine" since 80% of "historic palsetine" is now Jordan).
Angie, what motivates you to LIE and say bad things about Israel that aren't true?
Angie said: "US provides Israel so it can get its weapons to annililate Palestinians."
FACT: Israel is not "anniliating" Palestinians. In several years of the idiotic self-destructive palestinian intifada, only around 2200 have died.
The death totals in new york and los angeles in any given 2.5-year period equal that.
Hardly "anniliation."
Why, angie, do you intentionally lie about israel this way? What motivates you to demonize Israel for what Israel DOESN'T do?
Hmmmmmmm....
Angie said: "US provides Israel so it can get its weapons to annililate Palestinians."
FACT: Israel is not "anniliating" Palestinians. In several years of the idiotic self-destructive palestinian intifada, only around 2200 have died.
The death totals in new york and los angeles in any given 2.5-year period equal that.
Hardly "anniliation."
Why, angie, do you intentionally lie about israel this way? What motivates you to demonize Israel for what Israel DOESN'T do?
Hmmmmmmm....
Haha the BBC is even biased against Britain.
"Tonight, for instance, everyone was prattling on about what Abbas should do, etc. Not one word was said about what Israel should do. It's this kind of utter one-sidedness that sickens me."
The people on the left think its one sided against Abas and co the people on the right think its one sided against israel. ...
"And there was GWBush going on about freezing Hamas' assets; no mention, of course, of the 3 billioin a year (or more) the US provides Israel "
If the US was to freeze israel's assets for fighting terrorist groups to avoid hypocracy it would have to freeze its own assets.
can get its weapons to annililate Palestinians.
- I can just imagine it the US goes ok israel we will give you this loan guarantee but its a specific "killing palistinian loan guarantee" you have to meet your quota! we will also sell you weapons but they all have palistinians names written on the side make sure you get them....... yeh... sound about right? ahah
And the israelis sitting there going.. bio weapons or rubber bullets bio weapons or rubber bullets.. *rolls the dice* dam its bulllets again maybe we will get the bio weapons tomorrow.. its just a matter of time....
" Why doesn't Europe freeze the assets of Israel, pray tell, so it can't continue adding to its deathly arsenal."
Then Europe can freeze the assets of the USA because well you wouldnt want the USA to add to its arsenal. hmm and then china yup how about that.
Or maybe Europe will decide not to act like an idiot..
"Just once, however, I'd love to see a news cast with no coverage of this hell hole.. When you consider the horrors of the world in general the coverage given this conflict is totally disproportionate."
Yes indeed on that we can agree
"Maybe some of the intelligent folk on the board can tell us why is this so."
ngghhh... small democracy surrounded by lots of non democratic states that keep sponsoring terrorism..... must... defend...... arrgghhh....
and from the other side
"strong army of religious people and weak people who want own country... must... become... human sheild arrgghhh"
"Tonight, for instance, everyone was prattling on about what Abbas should do, etc. Not one word was said about what Israel should do. It's this kind of utter one-sidedness that sickens me."
The people on the left think its one sided against Abas and co the people on the right think its one sided against israel. ...
"And there was GWBush going on about freezing Hamas' assets; no mention, of course, of the 3 billioin a year (or more) the US provides Israel "
If the US was to freeze israel's assets for fighting terrorist groups to avoid hypocracy it would have to freeze its own assets.
can get its weapons to annililate Palestinians.
- I can just imagine it the US goes ok israel we will give you this loan guarantee but its a specific "killing palistinian loan guarantee" you have to meet your quota! we will also sell you weapons but they all have palistinians names written on the side make sure you get them....... yeh... sound about right? ahah
And the israelis sitting there going.. bio weapons or rubber bullets bio weapons or rubber bullets.. *rolls the dice* dam its bulllets again maybe we will get the bio weapons tomorrow.. its just a matter of time....
" Why doesn't Europe freeze the assets of Israel, pray tell, so it can't continue adding to its deathly arsenal."
Then Europe can freeze the assets of the USA because well you wouldnt want the USA to add to its arsenal. hmm and then china yup how about that.
Or maybe Europe will decide not to act like an idiot..
"Just once, however, I'd love to see a news cast with no coverage of this hell hole.. When you consider the horrors of the world in general the coverage given this conflict is totally disproportionate."
Yes indeed on that we can agree
"Maybe some of the intelligent folk on the board can tell us why is this so."
ngghhh... small democracy surrounded by lots of non democratic states that keep sponsoring terrorism..... must... defend...... arrgghhh....
and from the other side
"strong army of religious people and weak people who want own country... must... become... human sheild arrgghhh"
Lies? Everything is lies with you poor deluded, brainwashed contributors to this board. Everything is lies.
As if anything you say is the truth. If, and when, your precious little terrorist state becomes the "democracy" it's supposed to be, stops its daily killing of Palestinians, demolition of homes, theft of lands, re-routing of water, targeted killings - must I go on? - we who care about justice and honesty will be more than happy to applaud Israel.
Maybe you can tell us when we might expect that to happen.
You might recall that CT brought up the BBC World and CBC Canada.
But the minute I, or anyone else, steps up to the Board to point out obvious fallacies we're the worst in the world.
You can check for yourselves and see the yelling about removing Neil MacDonald from the Mid East; you can check and see the ongoing vilification of John Pilger, Gwynne Dyer, Robert Fisk, even Israel Shamir and Uri Avnery.
We haven't all fallen off the turnip truck yesterday, you know. We can read, and we can hear, and we can see. If stating the truth makes us (or me in this case) be accused of falling off the deep end or whatever, so be it.
I'm just grateful to have an independent mind.
Next time you don't want anything truthful said about BBC or CBC perhaps you'll leave it your own views unsaid.
Angie does not have an "independent" mind. She's totally fallen off the deep end and basically speaks like a hamas member at this point, minus the Allah/God stuff.
Furthermore, Israel is a democracy. 100% of Israel's citizens, regardless of race or religion, have an equal vote.
Just because you don't like how Israel handles it's NEIGHBORS, the guys who live OUTSIDe of Israel and are NOT Israeli citizens, does not mean Israel is no longer a democracy. It is.
I'm sorry that angie has fallen off the deep end to the point of now considering facts, reality and balance her enemy. I had hope for her. Oh well.
Furthermore, Israel is a democracy. 100% of Israel's citizens, regardless of race or religion, have an equal vote.
Just because you don't like how Israel handles it's NEIGHBORS, the guys who live OUTSIDe of Israel and are NOT Israeli citizens, does not mean Israel is no longer a democracy. It is.
I'm sorry that angie has fallen off the deep end to the point of now considering facts, reality and balance her enemy. I had hope for her. Oh well.
I was going to say "hi hahaha" (is there just three ha's), but it looked rather silly, yu know, hi hahaha.
Anyway a little frivolity.
Frankly, hahaha (aren't you part of the Hi/Ugh gang??) I have, and never had, "any hope for you". You've never entered my mind unless I see you address me here. Oh, I had "hoped" on occasion that you'd find yourself a "real" name as opposed to many unreal ones. However, that's minor. One can cope with all of you, I suppose.
How about if you go "off the deep end" too? You might see things from a different perspective, and who knows? A change of scene might do you a world of good!
So am I going to be hearing from "ugh" soon? Sigh!
Non-Critical Thinkifier: "But there was the pre-WWII grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin al-Husseini, who ACTIVELY collaborated with the Nazis in that "enterprize"... "
JA: Well, I guess that ONE person (and the "FEW" other Palestinians) was in FINE company with all those leading so-called "Jewish"/Khazar ZIONISTS!!:
REF.: "51 DOCUMENTS: *ZIONIST* COLLABORATION WITH THE NAZIS", by Lenni Brenner, 2002, Barricade Books (http://www.barricadebooks.com).
(THIS DOESN'T EVEN INCLUDE ALL THOSE OTHER "JEWS" WHO COLLABORATED WITH THE NAZIS TO RUN THE GHETTOS, THE DEATH TRAINS, AND EVEN CO-OPERATED IN THE DEATH CAMPS THEMSELVES!)
NCThinkifier: "Sharon said Israel's control over the "Palestinian" population was "occupation"; he didn't refer to the status of the disputed territories whatsoever."
JA: Well that's even a STRONGER comment from that "Khazar" so-called "Jew". Not even that the Territories are "occupied", but that the very CONTROL over the Palestinians is--according to Sharon--"occupation".
NCThinkifier: "AND EVEN IF HE [THE VERY PRIME MINISTER, AND FORMER WAR MINISTER, OF ISRAEL ITSELF] *DID*..."
JA: Uh-oh! NCT is *back-peddling* ALREADY!! I GUESS HE'S NOT SO SURE OF HIMSELF, AFTER ALL!!
JA: Well, I guess that ONE person (and the "FEW" other Palestinians) was in FINE company with all those leading so-called "Jewish"/Khazar ZIONISTS!!:
REF.: "51 DOCUMENTS: *ZIONIST* COLLABORATION WITH THE NAZIS", by Lenni Brenner, 2002, Barricade Books (http://www.barricadebooks.com).
(THIS DOESN'T EVEN INCLUDE ALL THOSE OTHER "JEWS" WHO COLLABORATED WITH THE NAZIS TO RUN THE GHETTOS, THE DEATH TRAINS, AND EVEN CO-OPERATED IN THE DEATH CAMPS THEMSELVES!)
NCThinkifier: "Sharon said Israel's control over the "Palestinian" population was "occupation"; he didn't refer to the status of the disputed territories whatsoever."
JA: Well that's even a STRONGER comment from that "Khazar" so-called "Jew". Not even that the Territories are "occupied", but that the very CONTROL over the Palestinians is--according to Sharon--"occupation".
NCThinkifier: "AND EVEN IF HE [THE VERY PRIME MINISTER, AND FORMER WAR MINISTER, OF ISRAEL ITSELF] *DID*..."
JA: Uh-oh! NCT is *back-peddling* ALREADY!! I GUESS HE'S NOT SO SURE OF HIMSELF, AFTER ALL!!
Angie: "Tonight, for instance, everyone was prattling on about what Abbas should do, etc. Not one word was said about what Israel should do. It's this kind of utter one-sidedness..."
JA: AND the BBC World News I listened to today on my TV band radio had U.S. Zionist Dennis Ross--*ONLY*!--commenting about Palestine/Israel for about 5-10 minutes in only just over a 25 minute news program --AND *NO* PALESTINIAN SPOKESPERSON/ANALYST WHATSOEVER. (Of course, on American news--and I guess on BBC too--they never explicitly point out when the analysts are even celebrated Zioinsts. They never say, "And for the Zionist perspective..." )
But for Zionists, if Western news even reports a cloudy day in Israel, the Zionists *SSSCRRREEEEMMM* "ANTI-SEMITE!!!!!"
Yawwwwn...
The Zionists would'nt be satisfied until Sharon himself is anchoring the Western news and his cabinet are all the reporters!
Hi Angie!
JA
JA: AND the BBC World News I listened to today on my TV band radio had U.S. Zionist Dennis Ross--*ONLY*!--commenting about Palestine/Israel for about 5-10 minutes in only just over a 25 minute news program --AND *NO* PALESTINIAN SPOKESPERSON/ANALYST WHATSOEVER. (Of course, on American news--and I guess on BBC too--they never explicitly point out when the analysts are even celebrated Zioinsts. They never say, "And for the Zionist perspective..." )
But for Zionists, if Western news even reports a cloudy day in Israel, the Zionists *SSSCRRREEEEMMM* "ANTI-SEMITE!!!!!"
Yawwwwn...
The Zionists would'nt be satisfied until Sharon himself is anchoring the Western news and his cabinet are all the reporters!
Hi Angie!
JA
Actually it was Dennis Ross, identified as a "former Middle East envoy", who sat there for about five to ten minutes on BBC TV, praising Bush's "freezing Hamas' assets" spiel, among other things. I was totally disbelieving.
Why this "conflict" would be a lead story when yet today two other US soldiers were killed in Iraq is beyond my comprehension.
Oh, and "Chemical Ali" has been "captured". Funny, a few months ago the US declared they'd killed him. A timely resurrection.
Oh, and hello, yourself, JA!!!
Good to see you here again!
NCThinkifier: "It's not anti-semitic to make valid political criticisms of Israel. However, there are tons of anti-semites out there who single Israel out in absurd, excessive fashion while intentionally not applying the same standards of criticism to other countries who are blatantly far more guilty of the accusations."
JA: YAWWWWWNNNN....!!!!!
THE ZIONISTS CONSTANTLY RECYCLE THE SAME OLD *TIRED*, *RRREEEEAL* LONG-IN-THE-TOOTH, DEBUNKED ARGUMENTS!
NCThinkifier: "Obviously some people, jewish or not, anti-semitic or not, are insane, or ignorant."
JA: You see! Here on indymedia we've made some important progress!! Even the hardcore arch-Zionists now have to now admit that thee are non-hypocritical MORAL Jews (like Jeffrey Blankfort himself, above, as well as others) and *NON*-anti-Semites who oppose that racist ideology of Jewish-supremacy in Palestine, Zionism.
Of course, I'd love to see NCThinkifier go debate Blankfort at one of Blankfort's lectures. NCThinkifier, Scottie, gehrig, and all their cohorts FIRST OF ALL WOULDN'T EVEN SHOW UP!!!
(OH, THEY SHOUT AND SHOUT ON INDYMEDIA, BUT THEY NEVER SHOW UP FOR A LENNI BRENNER, JEFFREY BLANKFORT, NORMAN FINKLESTEIN, ETC., LECTURE!)
AND THEN, IF THEY EVEN INTELLECTUALLY *DARED* TO SHOW UP, THEY'D GET THEIR ZIONIST ASSES INTELLECTUALLY *WHOOPED* SO FAST AND SO HARD THAT THEY'D SLINK OUT WITH THEIR TALES BETWEEN THEIR LEGS, JUST LIKE SOME ARCH-ZIONISTS DID AT THE LAST S.F. LENNI BRENNER LECTURE!!!
NCThinkifier: "And closet anti-semites are often the loudest in complaining about the "anti-semitic" label."
JA: But, of course, they still backslide and try to hang onto their "EVERYBODY's-out-to-exterminate-us" and "they-ALL-hate-us-'cause-we're-'JEWS' " attitude -- as Lenni Brenner says, "the most affluent, most powerful minority" on the face of the earth, in the richest, most powerful nation on earth."
JA: YAWWWWWNNNN....!!!!!
THE ZIONISTS CONSTANTLY RECYCLE THE SAME OLD *TIRED*, *RRREEEEAL* LONG-IN-THE-TOOTH, DEBUNKED ARGUMENTS!
NCThinkifier: "Obviously some people, jewish or not, anti-semitic or not, are insane, or ignorant."
JA: You see! Here on indymedia we've made some important progress!! Even the hardcore arch-Zionists now have to now admit that thee are non-hypocritical MORAL Jews (like Jeffrey Blankfort himself, above, as well as others) and *NON*-anti-Semites who oppose that racist ideology of Jewish-supremacy in Palestine, Zionism.
Of course, I'd love to see NCThinkifier go debate Blankfort at one of Blankfort's lectures. NCThinkifier, Scottie, gehrig, and all their cohorts FIRST OF ALL WOULDN'T EVEN SHOW UP!!!
(OH, THEY SHOUT AND SHOUT ON INDYMEDIA, BUT THEY NEVER SHOW UP FOR A LENNI BRENNER, JEFFREY BLANKFORT, NORMAN FINKLESTEIN, ETC., LECTURE!)
AND THEN, IF THEY EVEN INTELLECTUALLY *DARED* TO SHOW UP, THEY'D GET THEIR ZIONIST ASSES INTELLECTUALLY *WHOOPED* SO FAST AND SO HARD THAT THEY'D SLINK OUT WITH THEIR TALES BETWEEN THEIR LEGS, JUST LIKE SOME ARCH-ZIONISTS DID AT THE LAST S.F. LENNI BRENNER LECTURE!!!
NCThinkifier: "And closet anti-semites are often the loudest in complaining about the "anti-semitic" label."
JA: But, of course, they still backslide and try to hang onto their "EVERYBODY's-out-to-exterminate-us" and "they-ALL-hate-us-'cause-we're-'JEWS' " attitude -- as Lenni Brenner says, "the most affluent, most powerful minority" on the face of the earth, in the richest, most powerful nation on earth."
.> there was . . . Hajj Amin al-Husseini, who ACTIVELY collaborated with the Nazis
And there was Fieval Polkes, a commander of the militant Zionist organization Haganah, who also actively collaborated with the Nazis.
See:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/04/120352_comment.php#120573
http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/05/127448_comment.php#127704
And there was Fieval Polkes, a commander of the militant Zionist organization Haganah, who also actively collaborated with the Nazis.
See:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/04/120352_comment.php#120573
http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/05/127448_comment.php#127704
history buff (nessie) is good at taking exceptions to the rule (ALLEGED) ones at that and pretending they are as common as the NORM of another side.
It's dishonst and sickening.
It's dishonst and sickening.
Angie: "Oh, and hello, yourself, JA!!!
Good to see you here again!"
Hiya, Angie!!
I see that you're still gettin' PROPS [rap language for "proper respects"] from these arch-Zionists here: if they aren't all ganging up on you, and/or especially calling you nasty names, THEN YOU KNOW THAT YOU'RE JUST *NOT* DOING YOUR JOB!!! HaHaHa!!
(Yeah, I was really surprised at how awful the coverage on Israel was tonight -- at least how blatantly one-sided it was. It was as awful/one-sided as the U.S. TV news!! And *STILL* these arch-Zionists krekhtz!)
I'm watching the TV news (sound down) and listening to a friend of mine's *VERY COOL* radio program on Berkeley Liberation Radio, "Slave Revolt Radio" program!! (Which is also rebroadcast on San Francisco Liberatoin Radio, SFLR, http://www.sflr.org, and a station in Santa Cruz, and in a few cities across the country.) I've just been called about a party tonight at a counterculture place called "The Bat Cave"! Haha!
I got another phone call, just now.
Gotta run.
Take care,
JA
Good to see you here again!"
Hiya, Angie!!
I see that you're still gettin' PROPS [rap language for "proper respects"] from these arch-Zionists here: if they aren't all ganging up on you, and/or especially calling you nasty names, THEN YOU KNOW THAT YOU'RE JUST *NOT* DOING YOUR JOB!!! HaHaHa!!
(Yeah, I was really surprised at how awful the coverage on Israel was tonight -- at least how blatantly one-sided it was. It was as awful/one-sided as the U.S. TV news!! And *STILL* these arch-Zionists krekhtz!)
I'm watching the TV news (sound down) and listening to a friend of mine's *VERY COOL* radio program on Berkeley Liberation Radio, "Slave Revolt Radio" program!! (Which is also rebroadcast on San Francisco Liberatoin Radio, SFLR, http://www.sflr.org, and a station in Santa Cruz, and in a few cities across the country.) I've just been called about a party tonight at a counterculture place called "The Bat Cave"! Haha!
I got another phone call, just now.
Gotta run.
Take care,
JA
JA: "FAR LESS THAN THE NUMBER OF SO-CALLED "JEWS"/KHAZARS WHO"
No comment necessary. It was only a matter of time anyway, wasn't it.
@%<
No comment necessary. It was only a matter of time anyway, wasn't it.
@%<
You can tell the delluded people from the sane people quite easily the delluded people make absolute statements
For example below
" If, and when, your precious little terrorist state becomes the "democracy" it's supposed to be, stops its daily killing of Palestinians, demolition of homes, theft of lands, re-routing of water, targeted killings - must I go on? - we who care about justice and honesty will be more than happy to applaud Israel."
is filled with lies amopngst which Israel is not "my precious" its not a terrorist state (due amongst other things to the definition of the word) it is the democracy that it is (everyone knows what a democracy is, it happens that israel is one and most of hte other countries in the area are not), and the worst lie we.... will be more than happy to applaud israel" who is this infamous "we" why should we care what that "we" think and why should we trust them to change their mind ?
Maybe you can tell us when we might expect that to happen.
For the "we" to applaud israel? Never.
"You can check for yourselves and see the yelling about removing Neil MacDonald from the Mid East; you can check and see the ongoing vilification of John Pilger, Gwynne Dyer, Robert Fisk, even Israel Shamir and Uri Avnery."
I have told you about Pilger and Fisk etc before if they are villified for bad reporting misleading facts conspiricy to hide bad news about desopts or whatever else then they should be fair game for critisism just like the people who they attack.
It would be a strange world if the press was above critical analysis.
"I'm just grateful to have an independent mind."
- there is a fair bit of diversity on both sides of the debate here. So I dont think you have a monopoly on having an independant mind.
JA
": Well, I guess that ONE person (and the "FEW" other Palestinians) was in FINE company with all those leading so-called "Jewish"/Khazar ZIONISTS!!:
REF.: "51 DOCUMENTS: *ZIONIST* COLLABORATION WITH THE NAZIS", by Lenni Brenner, 2002, Barricade Books (http://www.barricadebooks.com).
(THIS DOESN'T EVEN INCLUDE ALL THOSE OTHER "JEWS" WHO COLLABORATED WITH THE NAZIS TO RUN THE GHETTOS, THE DEATH TRAINS, AND EVEN CO-OPERATED IN THE DEATH CAMPS THEMSELVES!)"
- So are you saying that white slave traders have no responsibility for slavery of black people because there were heaps of black people helping them.
Sound stupid? that because both that and the argument about zionists helping the nazi are both stupid.
Even to whatever extent you can prove your claim it is meaningless.
Besides collective blame for a "belief" is even stupider than collective blame for a race. Shall I now blame you for the crimes of stalin or Mao just because they believed some things similar to you?
"JA: Well that's even a STRONGER comment from that "Khazar" so-called "Jew"."
Are we jews? If not then why are you going to such lengths to make a distinction between a race "khazars" and a religion "Judeism"
maybe you mean semites or hebrews. Anyway unless your a jew or a muslim the issue of religion particularly its heritability should be beside the point.
"Of course, I'd love to see NCThinkifier go debate Blankfort at one of Blankfort's lectures. NCThinkifier, Scottie, gehrig, and all their cohorts FIRST OF ALL WOULDN'T EVEN SHOW UP!!!"
Strangly the guys who hold lectures like that turn into ranting lunatics soon as you start questioning them. Then they go all red in the face and even the people who helped them organize it start to look embarrassed.
For example below
" If, and when, your precious little terrorist state becomes the "democracy" it's supposed to be, stops its daily killing of Palestinians, demolition of homes, theft of lands, re-routing of water, targeted killings - must I go on? - we who care about justice and honesty will be more than happy to applaud Israel."
is filled with lies amopngst which Israel is not "my precious" its not a terrorist state (due amongst other things to the definition of the word) it is the democracy that it is (everyone knows what a democracy is, it happens that israel is one and most of hte other countries in the area are not), and the worst lie we.... will be more than happy to applaud israel" who is this infamous "we" why should we care what that "we" think and why should we trust them to change their mind ?
Maybe you can tell us when we might expect that to happen.
For the "we" to applaud israel? Never.
"You can check for yourselves and see the yelling about removing Neil MacDonald from the Mid East; you can check and see the ongoing vilification of John Pilger, Gwynne Dyer, Robert Fisk, even Israel Shamir and Uri Avnery."
I have told you about Pilger and Fisk etc before if they are villified for bad reporting misleading facts conspiricy to hide bad news about desopts or whatever else then they should be fair game for critisism just like the people who they attack.
It would be a strange world if the press was above critical analysis.
"I'm just grateful to have an independent mind."
- there is a fair bit of diversity on both sides of the debate here. So I dont think you have a monopoly on having an independant mind.
JA
": Well, I guess that ONE person (and the "FEW" other Palestinians) was in FINE company with all those leading so-called "Jewish"/Khazar ZIONISTS!!:
REF.: "51 DOCUMENTS: *ZIONIST* COLLABORATION WITH THE NAZIS", by Lenni Brenner, 2002, Barricade Books (http://www.barricadebooks.com).
(THIS DOESN'T EVEN INCLUDE ALL THOSE OTHER "JEWS" WHO COLLABORATED WITH THE NAZIS TO RUN THE GHETTOS, THE DEATH TRAINS, AND EVEN CO-OPERATED IN THE DEATH CAMPS THEMSELVES!)"
- So are you saying that white slave traders have no responsibility for slavery of black people because there were heaps of black people helping them.
Sound stupid? that because both that and the argument about zionists helping the nazi are both stupid.
Even to whatever extent you can prove your claim it is meaningless.
Besides collective blame for a "belief" is even stupider than collective blame for a race. Shall I now blame you for the crimes of stalin or Mao just because they believed some things similar to you?
"JA: Well that's even a STRONGER comment from that "Khazar" so-called "Jew"."
Are we jews? If not then why are you going to such lengths to make a distinction between a race "khazars" and a religion "Judeism"
maybe you mean semites or hebrews. Anyway unless your a jew or a muslim the issue of religion particularly its heritability should be beside the point.
"Of course, I'd love to see NCThinkifier go debate Blankfort at one of Blankfort's lectures. NCThinkifier, Scottie, gehrig, and all their cohorts FIRST OF ALL WOULDN'T EVEN SHOW UP!!!"
Strangly the guys who hold lectures like that turn into ranting lunatics soon as you start questioning them. Then they go all red in the face and even the people who helped them organize it start to look embarrassed.
The pot calls the kettle black.
by history buff.
Thanks for droppin' some science, "history buff"!
Actually, the Mufti was just trying to limit the mass influx of European Jews to Palestine -- THE VERY SAME THING(!) that the *U.S. AND BRITAIN* were trying (with far more space, especially in the U.S.) to do in their own, respective, countries!! And it's not like he was 'the pope of the Palestinians'. What did the U.S. do?: send a whole shipload of Jewish refugees back to their probable deaths!! So, *now*, *who's* got blood on their hands? And, unlike the U.S. and Britain, the Mufti was not even the sovereign of Palestine -- UNDER BRITISH POLITICAL CONTROL TOO!
by history buff.
Thanks for droppin' some science, "history buff"!
Actually, the Mufti was just trying to limit the mass influx of European Jews to Palestine -- THE VERY SAME THING(!) that the *U.S. AND BRITAIN* were trying (with far more space, especially in the U.S.) to do in their own, respective, countries!! And it's not like he was 'the pope of the Palestinians'. What did the U.S. do?: send a whole shipload of Jewish refugees back to their probable deaths!! So, *now*, *who's* got blood on their hands? And, unlike the U.S. and Britain, the Mufti was not even the sovereign of Palestine -- UNDER BRITISH POLITICAL CONTROL TOO!
Where, exactly, did history buff say that? Be specific.
and who's embraced the canard now?
by gehrig Friday August 22, 2003 at 07:50 PM
JA: "FAR LESS THAN THE NUMBER OF SO-CALLED "JEWS"/KHAZARS WHO"
No comment necessary. It was only a matter of time anyway, wasn't it.
by gehrig Friday August 22, 2003 at 07:50 PM
JA: "FAR LESS THAN THE NUMBER OF SO-CALLED "JEWS"/KHAZARS WHO"
No comment necessary. It was only a matter of time anyway, wasn't it.
My post was not addressed to you. For the hundredth time just because it showed up underneath yours doesn't mean it was meant for you. I was addressing someone above that. Geez!
Thinkifier: "Both BBC and CNN International are biased in favor of the Arabs and the "Palestinians". This has been proven and observed time and time again."
JA: While Angie and I at least provided a *SPECIFIC* instance of a news report when a Zionist, Dennis Ross, was consulted extensively for his Zionist propaganda lines, but *NO* Palestinian was even briefly interviewed, Thinkifier provides *NO* documentation for his claim by fiat. So, we can just *IGNORE* his *EMPTY* claim.
Then Thinkifier goes on with more RECYCLED PROPGANDA -- which indymedia arch-Zionists (since they have no friends and no life outside of their paid propaganda profession) have all the time in the world for -- that has already been debunked at length about U.S. aid to Israel. So, we can *IGNORE* his debunked claims here too. I wish that indymedia had a way for debunked Zionist propaganda cliams to be numbered in a permanent reference, so that we can jus refer newbies to the appropriate rebuttal.
Thinkifier: "not caring about the anti-Semitic contents of the textbooks at the PA schools..."
JA: Booohooo...!! More propaganda.This is from a RACIST group, Zionists, that have and do consistently lie to the world and manipulate the Western media--and try to censor others--for about the past 80 years! Gee, I wonder what *Israeli* textbooks* teach and say. We already know what these Zionist Jewish racists say on indymedia.
Thinkifier: " "Terrorist state"? You're either totally brainwashed against Israel or lying through your teeth."
JA: Can you believe this, not only Jewish RACISTS complaining about 'anti-Semitism', but a state incepted by JEWISH TERRORISTS complaining about terrorism. IT IS TO LAUGH!!
Again, booohooo...!!
Thinkifier: " >>>"even Israel Shamir and Uri Avnery. "<<<
These two are liars."
JA: SPECIFICS? DOCUMENTATION/? Thinkifier has 'never' been caught in an *egregious* lie, has he? At least we know who they are. The only SCARED, PUSILLANIMOUS, *COWARDS*, who *never* use their real names, or a moniker where we know who they are, on sf.indymedia are ZIONISTS.
Thinkifier: "[to Angie] I guess you're starting to face up to some unpleasant facts about your anti-Israeli bias."
JA: Another EMPTY and POLEMICAL juvenile-level claim. And how devoid of attempted 'wit'! You *were* trying to be 'witty', weren't you, Thinkifier. You know, it takes a certain minimal level of intelligence to do so, so you better not try that again.
Thinkifier: "[the Palestinians] they shed real (or crocodile) tears about the Jewish Holocaust..."
JA: Oh we're *ALL* shedding tears about the Jewish holocaust! How can we avoid it? You Zionists cynically and politically EXPLOIT the suffering and death of your 'own' people every other night on TV with seemingly infinite movies --from infinitely different angles -- every time about the Jewish holocaust! Nobody else's holocaust (the Native American holocaust, the Black holocaust, the Philippino holocaust, the Armenian holocaust, the Aboriginal holocaust, the Cambodian holocaust, the women's witch hunt holocaust, the Hawai'ian holocaust, etc., al-Nakba) ever gets that kind of TV coverage. You Zionists think that Jews are the only people in the world that really matter. You're ***NAUSEATING*** us--including other Jews!! Last night it was "Sylvia's Path" for yet *ANOTHER* Jewish holocaust movie. Fortunately, I had a party to go to.
JA: While Angie and I at least provided a *SPECIFIC* instance of a news report when a Zionist, Dennis Ross, was consulted extensively for his Zionist propaganda lines, but *NO* Palestinian was even briefly interviewed, Thinkifier provides *NO* documentation for his claim by fiat. So, we can just *IGNORE* his *EMPTY* claim.
Then Thinkifier goes on with more RECYCLED PROPGANDA -- which indymedia arch-Zionists (since they have no friends and no life outside of their paid propaganda profession) have all the time in the world for -- that has already been debunked at length about U.S. aid to Israel. So, we can *IGNORE* his debunked claims here too. I wish that indymedia had a way for debunked Zionist propaganda cliams to be numbered in a permanent reference, so that we can jus refer newbies to the appropriate rebuttal.
Thinkifier: "not caring about the anti-Semitic contents of the textbooks at the PA schools..."
JA: Booohooo...!! More propaganda.This is from a RACIST group, Zionists, that have and do consistently lie to the world and manipulate the Western media--and try to censor others--for about the past 80 years! Gee, I wonder what *Israeli* textbooks* teach and say. We already know what these Zionist Jewish racists say on indymedia.
Thinkifier: " "Terrorist state"? You're either totally brainwashed against Israel or lying through your teeth."
JA: Can you believe this, not only Jewish RACISTS complaining about 'anti-Semitism', but a state incepted by JEWISH TERRORISTS complaining about terrorism. IT IS TO LAUGH!!
Again, booohooo...!!
Thinkifier: " >>>"even Israel Shamir and Uri Avnery. "<<<
These two are liars."
JA: SPECIFICS? DOCUMENTATION/? Thinkifier has 'never' been caught in an *egregious* lie, has he? At least we know who they are. The only SCARED, PUSILLANIMOUS, *COWARDS*, who *never* use their real names, or a moniker where we know who they are, on sf.indymedia are ZIONISTS.
Thinkifier: "[to Angie] I guess you're starting to face up to some unpleasant facts about your anti-Israeli bias."
JA: Another EMPTY and POLEMICAL juvenile-level claim. And how devoid of attempted 'wit'! You *were* trying to be 'witty', weren't you, Thinkifier. You know, it takes a certain minimal level of intelligence to do so, so you better not try that again.
Thinkifier: "[the Palestinians] they shed real (or crocodile) tears about the Jewish Holocaust..."
JA: Oh we're *ALL* shedding tears about the Jewish holocaust! How can we avoid it? You Zionists cynically and politically EXPLOIT the suffering and death of your 'own' people every other night on TV with seemingly infinite movies --from infinitely different angles -- every time about the Jewish holocaust! Nobody else's holocaust (the Native American holocaust, the Black holocaust, the Philippino holocaust, the Armenian holocaust, the Aboriginal holocaust, the Cambodian holocaust, the women's witch hunt holocaust, the Hawai'ian holocaust, etc., al-Nakba) ever gets that kind of TV coverage. You Zionists think that Jews are the only people in the world that really matter. You're ***NAUSEATING*** us--including other Jews!! Last night it was "Sylvia's Path" for yet *ANOTHER* Jewish holocaust movie. Fortunately, I had a party to go to.
You see, all we EVER hear about--all the time!--on TV is about the Jewish holocaust, so even I forgot (above) to mention one of the biggest--and probably most sheerly viscious--holocausts the world has ever known: THE BELGIAN CONGO HOLOCAUST!! FAR FAR MORE VISCIOUS THAN THE JEWISH HOLOCAUST!
Look it up.
(And then, in WWI, the Allies had the nerve to come up with the slogan "Poor Little Belgium", about the German sweep through Belgium.)
Look it up.
(And then, in WWI, the Allies had the nerve to come up with the slogan "Poor Little Belgium", about the German sweep through Belgium.)
And, of course, Zionists *NEVER* talk--in all their infinite Jewish holocaust movies--about THE "GYPSIE"/ROMA HOLOCAUST, even though Hitler tried to exterminate the Roma RIGHT ALONG WITH the Jews. But, as I mentioned before in indymedia, the Jews who run the Jewish holocaust museums won't even permit a little corner devoted for the "Gypsie" Holocaust--or any other--by the Nazis. The conservative Jewish establisment--including that ole anti-Arab racist, Ellie Wiesel--has always wanted a monopoly on victimhood, *true* suffering, and holocausts. Hitler also tried to exterminate gays (even though many Nazis were closet gays) and before the Jews, he tried to exterminate the handicapped, especially the mentally/neurologically handicapped (who didn't quite fit in with his theories of Aryan supremacy).
Thinkifier: " >>>"REF.: "51 DOCUMENTS: *ZIONIST* COLLABORATION WITH THE NAZIS", by Lenni Brenner, 2002, Barricade Books (http://www.barricadebooks.com).
(THIS DOESN'T EVEN INCLUDE ALL THOSE OTHER "JEWS" WHO COLLABORATED WITH THE NAZIS TO RUN THE GHETTOS, THE DEATH TRAINS, AND EVEN CO-OPERATED IN THE DEATH CAMPS THEMSELVES!) "<<<
This reeks of a calculated attempt of malevolent JA to blame the Jews for their own Holocaust "
JA: Take it up with Lenni.
Thinkifier: "This is JA's favorite wishful thinking at action here. Dream on loser, the territories in question are DISPUTED and you are a LIAR."
JA: *Heyyyyyy*....., *Thinkifier*....., don't get in a HUFF!!! Don't start "*RRRANTING* and RRRAVING*"!!! HAHAHAHA!!
Well, anyway, now we'll all believe it -- just 'cause *YOU* said so!! We'll even take *your* word over *Sharon's*! Is that what you want?
Thinkifier: ">>>"JA: Uh-oh! NCT is *back-peddling* ALREADY!! I GUESS HE'S NOT SO SURE OF HIMSELF, AFTER ALL!! "<<<
When a anti-Israeli/anti-Semitic discredited cretin"
JA: Speaking of *discredited* cretins: backpeddler! Hahaha!
Thinkifier: "JA's a liar what else is new."
JA: Such sandbox name-calling, coming from *YOU*?: now we ALL believe it!
Thinkifier: " >>>"Of course, I'd love to see NCThinkifier go debate Blankfort at one of Blankfort's lectures. NCThinkifier, Scottie, gehrig, and all their cohorts FIRST OF ALL WOULDN'T EVEN SHOW UP!!! "<<<
Take it as you wish, I don't care to waste even a split second on publicly (or privately) debating fellows like Tim Wise and his ilk. "
JA: OH, THESE ZIONIST COWARDS ARE SO *EASY* TO PREDICT!!! WHAT DID I TELL EVERYONE!!?
OH, THESE *ARCH*-ZIONISTS CAN *WOOF* 'N *WOOF* HERE IN INDYMEDIA, BUT WHEN IT COMES TIME TO PUT UP OR SHUT UP IN FRONT OF *REAL* AUTHORITIES, THEY SCAMPER OFF LIKE LITTLE CHIHUAHUAS.
(NO OFFENSE TO LITTLE CHIHUAHUA'S -- HAHAHA!!)
Thinkifier: " >>>"AND THEN, IF THEY EVEN INTELLECTUALLY *DARED* TO SHOW UP, THEY'D GET THEIR ZIONIST ASSES INTELLECTUALLY *WHOOPED* SO FAST AND SO HARD THAT THEY'D SLINK OUT WITH THEIR TALES BETWEEN THEIR LEGS, JUST LIKE SOME ARCH-ZIONISTS DID AT THE LAST S.F. LENNI BRENNER LECTURE!!! "<<<
This is more likely the fate which would befall our miserable JA if I'm forced ay gun point to show up and debate HIM. "
JA: At gunpoint, hypothetically, is the only way you *would* show up to debate me!! And I'ld love it. I'd do to you what I did to your little racist arch-Zionist buddy David Horowitz: I'd have you scampering out of the room with your tail between your legs with my first question/comment.
Or as a local newspaper put it, regarding me: "The third questioner came prepared and got right to the point, forcing Horowitz to admit that he [Horowitz] was *WRONG*."[!!!]
That's how I'd summarily *cream* you! Brush my hands together and leave!! -- with you looking like the fool that you are. Wanna meet at high noon at a public debate? We can even hold it over the radio (I have friends who have public affairs programs.) Or do I smell *CHIC-KEN*!!!
HAHAHAHAHA...!!!
Thinkifier: " >>>"JA: But, of course, they still backslide and try to hang onto their "EVERYBODY's-out-to-exterminate-us" and "they-ALL-hate-us-'cause-we're-'JEWS' " attitude..."<<<
Yawwwwwwwwwwwn. "
JA: Oh, everyone's against us! We're *soooo* OPPRESSED!!! Everyone hates us and will hate us ***FOREVER*** 'cause we're JEWS!!!
For a hearty laugh, see!!:
We're oppressed in America too!
by Zionist Jew Saturday August 16, 2003 at 08:10 PM:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/08/1635249_comment.php#1635578
AUDIO: Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey Blankfort on anti-Semitism. Israel threatens Iran
by Dennis Bernstein's flashpoints.net Friday August 15, 2003 at 10:53 PM
Thinkifier: " >>>"Actually, the Mufti was just trying to limit the mass influx of European Jews to Palestine -- THE VERY SAME THING(!) that the *U.S. AND BRITAIN* were trying (with far more space, especially in the U.S.) to do in their own, respective, countries!! " Blah blah blah...<<<
JA is trying to whitewash al-Husseini. [WHO ORIGINALLY SOUGHT GERMAN HELP LONG BEFORE THE HOLOCAUST AND WHO ALSO KNEW THAT ZIONISTS WERE COMING--FULLY AND OBVIOUSLY INTENDING--TO MASS DISPOSSESS AND TURN PALESTINIANS INTO A MINORITY IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY AND SET UP THEIR (ZIONISTS) OWN ZIONIST STATE THERE -- WHICH THE U.S. OR BRITAIN -- OR ANY OTHER COUNTRY WOULD HAVE ***NEVER*** TOLERATED EITHER!!!] I've come to expect this too from nutcases like JA. "
JA: TRANSLATION: "*Ooops*!! He's got us *here*, my arch-Zionist cohorts! What are we doing living in a country, the U.S., that sent a whole shipload of us Jews back to Nazi Europe, WHEN THERE WERE U.S. STATES WITH EVER MORE SPACE THAN PEOPLE!? Why couldn't the U.S. let us into Montana or the Dakotas or Nebraska or Idaho or Arizona or Iowa or Missouri or Colorado or Utah or Kansas or Maine or Vermont or Minnesota or Washington state or Upper Michigan? Man, the U.S. wouldn't let us into or have part o' ***NOTHIN'***!!! ***THAT'S COLLLD!!!*** Since we wanted to settle in the desert anyway, the U.S. could have at least given us Nevada or New Mexico? We're *obviously* *self-hating*, *hypocritical*, *no* self-respecting Jews to be ranting about the Mufti, while we're living in a country that condemned a whole shipload of us! How can we even respect ourselves as 'decent' Arab-hating Zionists and LIVE in a country like the U.S.!!!??? Man, we must be *SHIT*!!!"
(THIS DOESN'T EVEN INCLUDE ALL THOSE OTHER "JEWS" WHO COLLABORATED WITH THE NAZIS TO RUN THE GHETTOS, THE DEATH TRAINS, AND EVEN CO-OPERATED IN THE DEATH CAMPS THEMSELVES!) "<<<
This reeks of a calculated attempt of malevolent JA to blame the Jews for their own Holocaust "
JA: Take it up with Lenni.
Thinkifier: "This is JA's favorite wishful thinking at action here. Dream on loser, the territories in question are DISPUTED and you are a LIAR."
JA: *Heyyyyyy*....., *Thinkifier*....., don't get in a HUFF!!! Don't start "*RRRANTING* and RRRAVING*"!!! HAHAHAHA!!
Well, anyway, now we'll all believe it -- just 'cause *YOU* said so!! We'll even take *your* word over *Sharon's*! Is that what you want?
Thinkifier: ">>>"JA: Uh-oh! NCT is *back-peddling* ALREADY!! I GUESS HE'S NOT SO SURE OF HIMSELF, AFTER ALL!! "<<<
When a anti-Israeli/anti-Semitic discredited cretin"
JA: Speaking of *discredited* cretins: backpeddler! Hahaha!
Thinkifier: "JA's a liar what else is new."
JA: Such sandbox name-calling, coming from *YOU*?: now we ALL believe it!
Thinkifier: " >>>"Of course, I'd love to see NCThinkifier go debate Blankfort at one of Blankfort's lectures. NCThinkifier, Scottie, gehrig, and all their cohorts FIRST OF ALL WOULDN'T EVEN SHOW UP!!! "<<<
Take it as you wish, I don't care to waste even a split second on publicly (or privately) debating fellows like Tim Wise and his ilk. "
JA: OH, THESE ZIONIST COWARDS ARE SO *EASY* TO PREDICT!!! WHAT DID I TELL EVERYONE!!?
OH, THESE *ARCH*-ZIONISTS CAN *WOOF* 'N *WOOF* HERE IN INDYMEDIA, BUT WHEN IT COMES TIME TO PUT UP OR SHUT UP IN FRONT OF *REAL* AUTHORITIES, THEY SCAMPER OFF LIKE LITTLE CHIHUAHUAS.
(NO OFFENSE TO LITTLE CHIHUAHUA'S -- HAHAHA!!)
Thinkifier: " >>>"AND THEN, IF THEY EVEN INTELLECTUALLY *DARED* TO SHOW UP, THEY'D GET THEIR ZIONIST ASSES INTELLECTUALLY *WHOOPED* SO FAST AND SO HARD THAT THEY'D SLINK OUT WITH THEIR TALES BETWEEN THEIR LEGS, JUST LIKE SOME ARCH-ZIONISTS DID AT THE LAST S.F. LENNI BRENNER LECTURE!!! "<<<
This is more likely the fate which would befall our miserable JA if I'm forced ay gun point to show up and debate HIM. "
JA: At gunpoint, hypothetically, is the only way you *would* show up to debate me!! And I'ld love it. I'd do to you what I did to your little racist arch-Zionist buddy David Horowitz: I'd have you scampering out of the room with your tail between your legs with my first question/comment.
Or as a local newspaper put it, regarding me: "The third questioner came prepared and got right to the point, forcing Horowitz to admit that he [Horowitz] was *WRONG*."[!!!]
That's how I'd summarily *cream* you! Brush my hands together and leave!! -- with you looking like the fool that you are. Wanna meet at high noon at a public debate? We can even hold it over the radio (I have friends who have public affairs programs.) Or do I smell *CHIC-KEN*!!!
HAHAHAHAHA...!!!
Thinkifier: " >>>"JA: But, of course, they still backslide and try to hang onto their "EVERYBODY's-out-to-exterminate-us" and "they-ALL-hate-us-'cause-we're-'JEWS' " attitude..."<<<
Yawwwwwwwwwwwn. "
JA: Oh, everyone's against us! We're *soooo* OPPRESSED!!! Everyone hates us and will hate us ***FOREVER*** 'cause we're JEWS!!!
For a hearty laugh, see!!:
We're oppressed in America too!
by Zionist Jew Saturday August 16, 2003 at 08:10 PM:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/08/1635249_comment.php#1635578
AUDIO: Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey Blankfort on anti-Semitism. Israel threatens Iran
by Dennis Bernstein's flashpoints.net Friday August 15, 2003 at 10:53 PM
Thinkifier: " >>>"Actually, the Mufti was just trying to limit the mass influx of European Jews to Palestine -- THE VERY SAME THING(!) that the *U.S. AND BRITAIN* were trying (with far more space, especially in the U.S.) to do in their own, respective, countries!! " Blah blah blah...<<<
JA is trying to whitewash al-Husseini. [WHO ORIGINALLY SOUGHT GERMAN HELP LONG BEFORE THE HOLOCAUST AND WHO ALSO KNEW THAT ZIONISTS WERE COMING--FULLY AND OBVIOUSLY INTENDING--TO MASS DISPOSSESS AND TURN PALESTINIANS INTO A MINORITY IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY AND SET UP THEIR (ZIONISTS) OWN ZIONIST STATE THERE -- WHICH THE U.S. OR BRITAIN -- OR ANY OTHER COUNTRY WOULD HAVE ***NEVER*** TOLERATED EITHER!!!] I've come to expect this too from nutcases like JA. "
JA: TRANSLATION: "*Ooops*!! He's got us *here*, my arch-Zionist cohorts! What are we doing living in a country, the U.S., that sent a whole shipload of us Jews back to Nazi Europe, WHEN THERE WERE U.S. STATES WITH EVER MORE SPACE THAN PEOPLE!? Why couldn't the U.S. let us into Montana or the Dakotas or Nebraska or Idaho or Arizona or Iowa or Missouri or Colorado or Utah or Kansas or Maine or Vermont or Minnesota or Washington state or Upper Michigan? Man, the U.S. wouldn't let us into or have part o' ***NOTHIN'***!!! ***THAT'S COLLLD!!!*** Since we wanted to settle in the desert anyway, the U.S. could have at least given us Nevada or New Mexico? We're *obviously* *self-hating*, *hypocritical*, *no* self-respecting Jews to be ranting about the Mufti, while we're living in a country that condemned a whole shipload of us! How can we even respect ourselves as 'decent' Arab-hating Zionists and LIVE in a country like the U.S.!!!??? Man, we must be *SHIT*!!!"
Thinkifier: " [More empty thoughts... with such*witty*, 'intellectual' gems and sandbox come-backs like...] ... By now we know JA credibility with outside Indymedia is less than 0..., Go to a mirror and you'll look at a juvee clown..., Make your mind up, buffoon..., you nutcase..., Besides, where does the fuckwit..., other laughable poltroons haven't posted here hiding their own names [my point is that you Zionists *ALWAYS* do, when you're not "IM-PER-SO-NI-FY-ING" others, *Thinkifier*], [and, ultimately, THE *REAL* 'INTELLECTUAL' GEM!!--OHHH, THIS IS RRRICH!!...THE VERY *HEIGHT* OF 'INTELLECTUAL' AND 'WITTY' COMBACKS!!!:] ...Kiss my ass, you wanker!! "
JA: ***TADAHHHH....****!!! [ ...***TSHHHHH....***!!!]
HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA...!!!!!
...Look, my life is *FULL*!! I've got another PARTY to get ready for!!
*Bye*!!
HAHAHAHAHA...!!!
JA: ***TADAHHHH....****!!! [ ...***TSHHHHH....***!!!]
HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA...!!!!!
...Look, my life is *FULL*!! I've got another PARTY to get ready for!!
*Bye*!!
HAHAHAHAHA...!!!
I wish I could moon you now
by Critical Thinker Saturday August 23, 2003 at 03:27 PM.
JA: *THAT'S* ABOUT YOUR LEVEL!!!
HAHAHAHAHA...!!!
*THANK YOU* FOR THAT COMMENT!!: YOU *EXACTLY* MAKE MY POINT!!!
(Are you sure you're not working for us *anti*-Zionists, but I just didn't get the memo???)
HA-HA-HA-HA-HA...!!!
ROTFL!!!
by Critical Thinker Saturday August 23, 2003 at 03:27 PM.
JA: *THAT'S* ABOUT YOUR LEVEL!!!
HAHAHAHAHA...!!!
*THANK YOU* FOR THAT COMMENT!!: YOU *EXACTLY* MAKE MY POINT!!!
(Are you sure you're not working for us *anti*-Zionists, but I just didn't get the memo???)
HA-HA-HA-HA-HA...!!!
ROTFL!!!
Hi, my friend,
Note you've been BUSY!
I noticed CT's spiel addressed to myself earlier, but I didn't have time to respond as it was supper time; then there was BBC World News; and now I'm off to the corner store.
So when I return CT can expect to hear from me. God, it's bloody humid here. We can barely breathe.
Enjoy your party!
Angie
Why don't you slither back under your bleeding rock, you pathetic excuse for a human being.
You' ve been keeping busy today/tonight. I note your signature throughout the Board. Are you ready for our wee chat? Good! Here we go, then. No "cut and paste" for me.
1) My problem with BBC World News is an intermittent one. Adding a Washinton anchor is totally unnecessary, and has caused a deterioration in its objectivity.
It was the Washington portion of the evening news yesterday that so angered us. I mean, a child in kindergarten would have asked what's going on here? I have never seen such blatent bias in BBC's news coverage, and I've sent them an email to address this. It was totally uncalled for, and a bloody disgrace.
Oh, yes, I'm also well aware of the expected reaction of Israeli supporters when BBC aired the brilliant documentary "The Accused" by award winning journalist, Ireland's Fergal Keane. It brought out all the same drivel we see here in abundance.
When John Pilger's "Palestine is Still the Issue" was broadcast on BBC, the same reaction. The fact that the peoples of the world have a right to watch whatever they wish seems to have been forgotten in these two instances.
I do not watch CNN. .
2) It's the hypocrisy of Bush that angered me yesterday evening. He's standing there talking about freezing the assets of senior Hamas members while at the same time expending funds in HUGE amounts to Israel. Whether it's 3 billion or a mere 2.7 billion matters nil. One side in this 'conflict" is expected to lie down and die and let the other side with its weapons of mass destruction roll over them. Not nice at all. Not even-handed either. People everywhere have a right to defend their homes and property, their families against an invading force. The Palesetinians are no exceptions.
It's a well known and much criticized fact that the US has been supporting Israel from its inception. I don't recall BBC telling me that.
3) It's a bit paradoxical here, CT. You imply it's okay for GWB to freeze the assets of Hamas, but Europe does "not have a moral right" to do the same to Israel. Why is that, hmm? And surely you, well read individual that you are, are already aware of the hatred of Palestinians that's being taught in Israel schools? Yes, I knew you were!
4) Re less coverage of this "conflict", yes, we agree on something, I see.
5) I happen to firmly believe that the Israeli government and its army are, without a doubt, state terrorists of the highest degree. Apart from all the other roles the IDF perform - you know, bulldozer operators, home demolition experts, killers of pre-teens throwing stones, and we could go on, but why waste space here - are you aware that Israel practices torture on a "medieval scale"? I'll quote from Israel Shamir:
"The Jewish state is the only place in the world possessing legitimate killer squads, embracing a policy of assassinations, and practicing torture on a medevial level, but don't worry, dear Jewish readers. We only torture and assassinate Gentiles only".
6) You're rather confused here, CT. Are you stating the Palestinians are demolishing Israeli homes, stealing Israeli water? And that Israel is simply appropriating the land for "security purposes"? Do you believe that, really? I don't. Israel has been re-routing Palestinian water for years, a known fact. As well it's trying to steal little Lebanon's water supply as well. Tut, tut, tut. I wouldn't count on your being able to sell those fallacies of yours very easily.
7) Dear Uri Avnery and Israel Shamir. "These two are liars". Noooooo! You don't say! Yes, I remember you mentioning dear Uri being a "liar" somewhere else here. So now I'm asking you to tell me what you consider to be a "lie" and what you did about it.
Because you see, dear Uri answers his email, or at least he answers mine, and once you tell me what he's supposedly lied about, well, then, we can go to the source.
8) Explain your: "I guess you're starting to face up to some unpleasant facts about your anti-Israeli bias".
This should be interesting -- or not.
9) I have nothing to add re your last sentence. It really doesn't warrant a reply.
So now I'm going to head on over to the thread containing your "plan" and deal with that. Expect a brief critique tomorrow.
Could it be you're related to Ariel Sharon?
He wants to see "the savages" killed too, every last one of them, every last savage two year old, every last pre-teen. Need I go on?
Way to go, "Critical Thinker"!!!!! .
I'm so glad for your sake that the like-minded "Fresca" has dropped by our Board (funny, however, how familiar he/she sounds, another reinvention perhaps??) You two should have a lot of fun, and judging from the comments we've seen to date, so should we.
If you read my spiel above and then CTs response, it is simply astonishing. He says:
"I won't engage debate with your vile lies, anti Israeli propaganda propelled dogma and otherwise pathetic musings as referenced in clauses 2-3, 5-7, 8-9 of your venomous diatribe".
"Venomous diatribe"? My wee spiel? Hell, that's not just curious. It's the stuff giggles are made of! Venomous diatribe! Well, well, well!
I note, however, he didn't bother to tell us where Uri Avnery lied; nor Israel Shamir. And he didn't tell us where I "lied" either, of course.
But at least now I won't have to respond to 'the plan".
Poor Angie! Poor Israel Shamir! Poor Uri Avnery. All three of us in the space of a few hours have been tossed out into the cold because we tell the truth. At least I'm in good company!!!
That the likes of you, so mentally challenged although pretending to be "educated", and so totally unable to step out from behind the cluster of outrageous aliases, can sit here and call me a "liar" is an indication of your pathetic little non-life.
You have never uttered a damn thing on this board yet that didn't sound like something a child might say to another during a playground squabble.
You're programmed to erupt with your little pathetic "I hate Angie and Nessie" or "I wish you had been in the WTC when your Arab friends flew by", or "I hope you get cancer and die and go to hell", and that's only the good stuff.
That really adds a lot to a discussion board, doesn't it?
You wouldn't know the truth if it slapped you in the face, you narrow-minded, brainwashed dolt.
Stay out of my space.
I don't care how two guys, Critical Thinker and Hi, have sex! As long as they only do it with other Zionist men, not Hamas guys.
Thinker, Hi, I'm "gay curious" myself. We should get together sometime.
Thinker, Hi, I'm "gay curious" myself. We should get together sometime.
Who the hell said "Fresca" was your alias? I sure as hell didn't. I merely said he/she sounds like someone else who used to be on this board. Or maybe it's just that you all sound alike after a while.
You suggested I read your "plan".
Now run along. I've nothing more to say to you or anyone else here this early morning. You' (plural) have wasted enough of my time and contributed nothing.
You suggested I read your "plan".
Now run along. I've nothing more to say to you or anyone else here this early morning. You' (plural) have wasted enough of my time and contributed nothing.
I don't care which of you, Critical Thinker, Hi, Scottie, is doing who, or in which orifice you're doing it in! You're making all us Zionists look bad! So, cut out the sex talk on SF-IMC!
"Who the hell said "Fresca" was your alias? I sure as hell didn't. I merely said he/she sounds like someone else who used to be on this board. Or maybe it's just that you all sound alike after a while."
Sounds like Critical Thinker's guilty conscience too me, Angie!
So, fuck you back, Critical Thinker!
Wait until you read what I'll have to write about you in some of the other threads, Critical Thinker. So there!
Sounds like Critical Thinker's guilty conscience too me, Angie!
So, fuck you back, Critical Thinker!
Wait until you read what I'll have to write about you in some of the other threads, Critical Thinker. So there!
"When anti-Semites are trounced even on the battlefield of derision, they try dehumanizing their opponents by utilizing their doomsday weapon: pornography."
But Critical Thinker, that was one of us Zionists who wrote that pornography regarding Angie.
Aren't you gay? I mean, it sure sounded like you. Do you want to get together and talk about it? There's no reason to deny it. Do you want to really get together?
But Critical Thinker, that was one of us Zionists who wrote that pornography regarding Angie.
Aren't you gay? I mean, it sure sounded like you. Do you want to get together and talk about it? There's no reason to deny it. Do you want to really get together?
Who's lying, you fuckwit?
You've got gehrig mad. He's been posting stuff about you in other threads now! Check the comments page. Why don't you let gehrig deal with Angie? You're not really doing such a good job against her. Your tactics do fall rather short. Your tactics are rather transparent too. Maybe if you did more than just call people names all the time... You know that Isreal Shamir and Uri Avnery are pretty prominent people in Israel. I don't think that arguing your words over theirs is going to get you anywhere, except with yourself. You did your best, but you're not really cut out to effectively handle someone like Angie. So, let gehrig. Anyway, I'd still like to get together with you, really, if you live in the area?
You wait until I get finished with you. You'll be sorry that you ever said that!
Look, you didn't have to spell it out, but I'm glad you finally admitted it. Don't you ffeel better now? You still want to meet, with Hi...? You know.
I'd start checking out the other threads if I were you. Two can play that name-calling shit, fucktard. Why don't you go over to Hamas? You're such an asswipe yourself that I think that you're working for them anyway.
"...are trying to drive wedges between the members of the sane and truly enlightened camp on this site."
Who is?
Who is?
You're the biggest moron on SF-IMC! And when I get finished with you, everybody will know it! Go over to Hamas, you scumbag! You'll wish you never crossed me.
>>>"You know that Isreal Shamir and Uri Avnery are pretty prominent people in Israel. I don't think that arguing your words over theirs is going to get you anywhere, except with yourself. You did your best, but you're not really cut out to effectively handle someone like Angie."<<<
I'm sorry, but it's true. Common, you're really overplaying your hand! It's not the best way to argue. You're not really fooling anyone but yourself. Let gehrig handle Angie, okay? I've been following your arguments with Angie and, my friend, you don't look too good.
I'm sorry, but it's true. Common, you're really overplaying your hand! It's not the best way to argue. You're not really fooling anyone but yourself. Let gehrig handle Angie, okay? I've been following your arguments with Angie and, my friend, you don't look too good.
I tried to be nice to you. Fuck you asswipe!
Strange i havent posted for a while and here we are with a handful of recent posts from me.
I thought of replying to some of them but on second thought none of it deserved a reply.
However this one...
"but you're not really cut out to effectively handle someone like Angie."
Well that is a classic Im rolling on the floor laughing.
This faker is amusing even when he isnt trying to be.
I thought of replying to some of them but on second thought none of it deserved a reply.
However this one...
"but you're not really cut out to effectively handle someone like Angie."
Well that is a classic Im rolling on the floor laughing.
This faker is amusing even when he isnt trying to be.
Scottie, that wasn't you?
... none of the posts forged in my name above were actually me.
Somebody obviously has a rich fantasy life.
@%<
Somebody obviously has a rich fantasy life.
@%<
Let me refresh your recall ability (which obviously is very limited and very selective).
Angie: 20 August 03 @ 8:44 a.m.
"Let's see you come up with something".
CT: 20 August 03 @ 8:54 a.m.
"Sorry, I must go to work now. But I'll be back with the plan tomorrow. Expect it".
CT: 20 August 03 @ 11:23 p.m.
"Okay, Angie. So here is my plan, imperfect as it is, warts and all".
If you weren't asking me, or suggesting to me, that I read your "plan" what did you want me to do with it? Have it for breakfast?
I'd be hardpressed to respond to your 11:23 post, directed to myself, had I not read same, now, wouldn't I?
Well, I've done my part. I read it. You asked (no, ordered is more like it) that I not comment on same, so being the obedient wee lass that I am, I will abide by your wishes.
Good day to you.
Angie: 20 August 03 @ 8:44 a.m.
"Let's see you come up with something".
CT: 20 August 03 @ 8:54 a.m.
"Sorry, I must go to work now. But I'll be back with the plan tomorrow. Expect it".
CT: 20 August 03 @ 11:23 p.m.
"Okay, Angie. So here is my plan, imperfect as it is, warts and all".
If you weren't asking me, or suggesting to me, that I read your "plan" what did you want me to do with it? Have it for breakfast?
I'd be hardpressed to respond to your 11:23 post, directed to myself, had I not read same, now, wouldn't I?
Well, I've done my part. I read it. You asked (no, ordered is more like it) that I not comment on same, so being the obedient wee lass that I am, I will abide by your wishes.
Good day to you.
Some anti-zionist pornographer is forging posts with people's screen names.
I say he's anti-zionist, because he's using the names of the people on the board who defend Israel: Gehrig, Critical Thinker, and Scottie.
"One of the Editors", who often claims people like Gehrig forge posts, has not removed this insulting pornography.
Why is that?
I say he's anti-zionist, because he's using the names of the people on the board who defend Israel: Gehrig, Critical Thinker, and Scottie.
"One of the Editors", who often claims people like Gehrig forge posts, has not removed this insulting pornography.
Why is that?
Poor thing!!
I didn't notice you complaining when one of the "Zionists" started this trend by coughing up a rather filthy piece signed by "Angie".
Are you saying that it's okay for some to print filth with respect to myself, but not if it applies to your pals, Scotie et al?
Pretty damn hypocritical, isn't it?
When I read what had been printed under my name, I was shocked into tears of horror, rage, and disbelief.
But "Someone", you didn't come running on to the Board to state your concern, then, did you?..
Why is that, I wonder? Unless, of course, you feel, as you obviously do, that when something like this is attributed to me, it matters not, other than as a source of your own amusement..
You make me sick.
I just love these posts. The educational system in
the US is superior. I come here to read and to relax. It is better than satellite televsion, or the glass toilet.
Most of the adherents of Israel are hilarious. Do you think
native indians in what is now the US were terrorists?
After all they did fight a much superior force, the settlers. I think they must have had road maps to peace. Bloody terrorist indians. Poxy vermin.
the US is superior. I come here to read and to relax. It is better than satellite televsion, or the glass toilet.
Most of the adherents of Israel are hilarious. Do you think
native indians in what is now the US were terrorists?
After all they did fight a much superior force, the settlers. I think they must have had road maps to peace. Bloody terrorist indians. Poxy vermin.
>"One of the Editors", who often claims people like Gehrig forge posts, has not removed this insulting pornography.
>Why is that?
I don't know what's forged and what's not. If your name has been forged, notify us by email. Include the URL. We'll deal with it.
Our address is:
imc-sf-editorial [at] lists.indymedia.org
What has been removed today is all posts by fresca, hi, and Critical Thinker. We apologize for any non sequiturs this has produced.
For an explanation, see:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/08/1637374.php
>Why is that?
I don't know what's forged and what's not. If your name has been forged, notify us by email. Include the URL. We'll deal with it.
Our address is:
imc-sf-editorial [at] lists.indymedia.org
What has been removed today is all posts by fresca, hi, and Critical Thinker. We apologize for any non sequiturs this has produced.
For an explanation, see:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/08/1637374.php
Suitable for removal is exactly how I feel about Zionists on SF-IMC, with your constant pornographic impersonations and juvenile, misogynist, pornographic slurs.
Ever hear?: You reap what you sow.
I'll bet there will be more!
HAMAS
Ever hear?: You reap what you sow.
I'll bet there will be more!
HAMAS
" Well, it's obvious now.
by Someone Sunday August 24, 2003 at 12:54 PM:
Some anti-zionist pornographer is forging posts with people's screen names. I say he's anti-zionist, because he's using the names of the people on the board who defend Israel: Gehrig, Critical Thinker, and Scottie. "One of the Editors", who often claims people like Gehrig forge posts, has not removed this insulting pornography. "
*WHATSAMATTER* ZIONIST *CRYBABIES*...?
*BOOO-HOOO*...!!!
WHY AREN'T WE HEARING FROM YOU GUYS ANYMORE HERE?
YOU CAN DISH IT OUT, BUT LIKE THE ZIONIST *CRYBABIES* THAT YOU ARE, YOU *CAN'T* TAKE IT!
NOT SO FUNNY *NOW*, HUH?
by Someone Sunday August 24, 2003 at 12:54 PM:
Some anti-zionist pornographer is forging posts with people's screen names. I say he's anti-zionist, because he's using the names of the people on the board who defend Israel: Gehrig, Critical Thinker, and Scottie. "One of the Editors", who often claims people like Gehrig forge posts, has not removed this insulting pornography. "
*WHATSAMATTER* ZIONIST *CRYBABIES*...?
*BOOO-HOOO*...!!!
WHY AREN'T WE HEARING FROM YOU GUYS ANYMORE HERE?
YOU CAN DISH IT OUT, BUT LIKE THE ZIONIST *CRYBABIES* THAT YOU ARE, YOU *CAN'T* TAKE IT!
NOT SO FUNNY *NOW*, HUH?
Unless your trying to say that there is one leftwing and one right wing person here and we are just "pretending" to have a multi person debate then you are faced with the fact that there is probably no more than about 1 0r 2 people on each side who are actually doing any faking. That means that most of us are not "dishing it out".
...I'd keep a look out for other "Scotties" in all the other threads if I were you. Although who coud tell the difference between what someone could make up on you and your own post. You say pretty stupid stuff all the time anyway. For someone who is posting from another time zone (Israel?) you sure don't add much to the conversation: even less than the other Zionist nuts. I don't even bother to read your posts anymore, they're so simpleminded, vapid and inane. This is saying quite a bit, since the normal looney Zionists in SF-IMC are quite quite insipid and doltish themselves, but at least they say something pointed enough to grab onto. You're the kind of nothing dolt that was probably the last to be picked (even by your own 'friends' that you were the hanger-on to) for anybody's team (on the playground or in the classroom) in gradeschool. Is your real name Millhouse?
What is this? I got as far as:
"Israel supporters (in other words, normal people) tend to speak facts, with a sense of reality and balance" blah, blah.
I had to stop before I laughed myself into a stupor.
This coming from those poor souls whose only defence to the atrocities being carried out by its terrorist state is to yell loudly (and often) at anyone who DARES utter a comment that might even be misconstrued as criticizing Israel that "you're lying", or "you liar", or the infamous "moron" tag. And much else besides.
Oh, well. Delusional doesn't begin to cover it, as it may be that your (plural) sole purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.
"Israel supporters (in other words, normal people) tend to speak facts, with a sense of reality and balance" blah, blah.
I had to stop before I laughed myself into a stupor.
This coming from those poor souls whose only defence to the atrocities being carried out by its terrorist state is to yell loudly (and often) at anyone who DARES utter a comment that might even be misconstrued as criticizing Israel that "you're lying", or "you liar", or the infamous "moron" tag. And much else besides.
Oh, well. Delusional doesn't begin to cover it, as it may be that your (plural) sole purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.
This assumes that Jews *have* the right to self determination. Jews have no more right to self determination than do Aryans. No ethnic group has the right to self determination. Self determination by ethnic groups is racism.
Angie, you DODGE facts, you AVOID reality, and you just deal in stupid exaggerations and generalizations, and then you have the gall to accuse others of doing the same.
" Actually, the "zionists" on this board (by "zionists" do you mean us normal people who don't want Israel to be destroyed?) "
That's right. Zionists are (centrally) Jews who ideologically believe in "a Jewish(-supremacist) state" who don't want that Jewish white-supremacist state to be politically destroyed. And you're right, Zionists are completely normal--all too normal--in that we have had white-supremacists of various kinds since Europe went into the world colonization business (in various places at various times) for Europeans of various kinds to get what they couldn't get in Europe. Zionists are all too normal in that they represent the human predicament: the ethnocentric desire for ethnic conquest and subordination. Anti-racists anti-Zionists are people who have evolved to a higher global justice and social consciousness. We enjoy and desire muliticultural societies with equal rights for all people. We're not afraid of people who don't look like us and who don't have the same accent or same native language. And, yes, I morally hate Zionists. And so do many Jews.
" Running around yelling "zionists!" is something that only islamic groups and white supremecists or neo-nazis tend to do. "
Aside from the fact that Zionism is just Jewish neo-Nazism, are you Zionists now afraid to even call yourselves that, because you have acquired such a nasty connotation in most of the world? We're gonna make the word "Zionism" just as odious as the word "Apartheid" was for white-South Africans, or just as odious as the word "Segregationist" was for white Southerners. You see, already you want to distance youself from that very word, "Zionist". So, what we anti-racists are doing has already been succeeding. What, now you don't even have the guts to own up to the name yourself?
"That's like running around yelling "colonialists!" at Americans."
Nope, most of the people of the world already have a word for what the U.S. does: "neo-colonialism" or "imperialism".
"...99% of human beings who support Israel's existence..."
Document your claim. Put up or shut up.
Most of the people of the world do NOT support ethnic-supremacist states. In fact, most socially and morally evolved people realize that that anachronism is what has caused most of history's problems. If you like ethnic-supremacist states, then you Zionists should stop haranguing us about the Nazis and you should stop grousing all the time about anti-Semitism.
" 99% of human beings who support Israel's existence, and are therefore "zionists," will have no idea what you're talking about and brand you a crazy person. "
You WISH that I were "crazy". And your greatest Zionist fear is that you know I'm NOT. Well, I guess that I am as "crazy" as Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, and other human rights icons who oppose(d) Zionism, as well as numerous prominent Jews, including Jewish holocaust survivors or their families.
"What "zionists" like to point out is that it is ABSURD and UNFAIR to single out the little jewish state of 7 million people or whatever and demand that "zionism" is wrong and that jews should not get to have a jewish state, while NOT spending a PROPORTIONATE amount of time yelling about the TWENTY-SOMETHING MUSLIM STATES with HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of people and demand that they too be broken up. You are singling out the jews for exercising their right to self-determination, while not doing the same to muslims for their states, or hindus for india, or anyplace else."
OHHH..., *BOOO-HOOO*!!
*POOR* LITTLE ISRAEL!!
OH 'YEAH', WE'RE ALL PICKING ON YOU 'CAUSE YOU'RE JEWISH. *BOOO-HOOO*!!
AND YOU CAN TAKE THE REST OF THAT PROPGANDA APOLOGISM SOMEWHERE *ESLE*!
WE'RE *TIRED* OF HEARING IT ON SF-IMC.
"That is unfair and dishonest."
YEAH, WHY CAN'T WE LET YOU BE BRUTAL OPPRESSORS TOO, LIKE THE BRUTAL ARAB GOVERNMENTS THAT THE U.S. ALSO SUPPORTS!?
*BOOO-HOOO*...!! IT TAKES A LOT TO MAKE ME CRY!!
YOU KNOW WHAT? WHEN WE SEE A STATE THAT SO PERVASIVELY OPPRESSES AN ENTIRE POPULATION OF JEWS, EVEN WITH BILLIONS *PER YEAR* OF OUR TAX MONEY, WE ANTI-RACIST ANTI-ZIONISTS WILL BE VIGOROUSLY CONDEMNING THAT STATE -- RIGHT ALONG WITH ISRAEL -- TOO.
BUT WHEN WE DO, I DON'T WANT YOU, AND OTHER ZIONISTS, AROUND US!
In the meantime, go be a hypocritical *CRYBABY* somewhere else.
That's right. Zionists are (centrally) Jews who ideologically believe in "a Jewish(-supremacist) state" who don't want that Jewish white-supremacist state to be politically destroyed. And you're right, Zionists are completely normal--all too normal--in that we have had white-supremacists of various kinds since Europe went into the world colonization business (in various places at various times) for Europeans of various kinds to get what they couldn't get in Europe. Zionists are all too normal in that they represent the human predicament: the ethnocentric desire for ethnic conquest and subordination. Anti-racists anti-Zionists are people who have evolved to a higher global justice and social consciousness. We enjoy and desire muliticultural societies with equal rights for all people. We're not afraid of people who don't look like us and who don't have the same accent or same native language. And, yes, I morally hate Zionists. And so do many Jews.
" Running around yelling "zionists!" is something that only islamic groups and white supremecists or neo-nazis tend to do. "
Aside from the fact that Zionism is just Jewish neo-Nazism, are you Zionists now afraid to even call yourselves that, because you have acquired such a nasty connotation in most of the world? We're gonna make the word "Zionism" just as odious as the word "Apartheid" was for white-South Africans, or just as odious as the word "Segregationist" was for white Southerners. You see, already you want to distance youself from that very word, "Zionist". So, what we anti-racists are doing has already been succeeding. What, now you don't even have the guts to own up to the name yourself?
"That's like running around yelling "colonialists!" at Americans."
Nope, most of the people of the world already have a word for what the U.S. does: "neo-colonialism" or "imperialism".
"...99% of human beings who support Israel's existence..."
Document your claim. Put up or shut up.
Most of the people of the world do NOT support ethnic-supremacist states. In fact, most socially and morally evolved people realize that that anachronism is what has caused most of history's problems. If you like ethnic-supremacist states, then you Zionists should stop haranguing us about the Nazis and you should stop grousing all the time about anti-Semitism.
" 99% of human beings who support Israel's existence, and are therefore "zionists," will have no idea what you're talking about and brand you a crazy person. "
You WISH that I were "crazy". And your greatest Zionist fear is that you know I'm NOT. Well, I guess that I am as "crazy" as Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, and other human rights icons who oppose(d) Zionism, as well as numerous prominent Jews, including Jewish holocaust survivors or their families.
"What "zionists" like to point out is that it is ABSURD and UNFAIR to single out the little jewish state of 7 million people or whatever and demand that "zionism" is wrong and that jews should not get to have a jewish state, while NOT spending a PROPORTIONATE amount of time yelling about the TWENTY-SOMETHING MUSLIM STATES with HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of people and demand that they too be broken up. You are singling out the jews for exercising their right to self-determination, while not doing the same to muslims for their states, or hindus for india, or anyplace else."
OHHH..., *BOOO-HOOO*!!
*POOR* LITTLE ISRAEL!!
OH 'YEAH', WE'RE ALL PICKING ON YOU 'CAUSE YOU'RE JEWISH. *BOOO-HOOO*!!
AND YOU CAN TAKE THE REST OF THAT PROPGANDA APOLOGISM SOMEWHERE *ESLE*!
WE'RE *TIRED* OF HEARING IT ON SF-IMC.
"That is unfair and dishonest."
YEAH, WHY CAN'T WE LET YOU BE BRUTAL OPPRESSORS TOO, LIKE THE BRUTAL ARAB GOVERNMENTS THAT THE U.S. ALSO SUPPORTS!?
*BOOO-HOOO*...!! IT TAKES A LOT TO MAKE ME CRY!!
YOU KNOW WHAT? WHEN WE SEE A STATE THAT SO PERVASIVELY OPPRESSES AN ENTIRE POPULATION OF JEWS, EVEN WITH BILLIONS *PER YEAR* OF OUR TAX MONEY, WE ANTI-RACIST ANTI-ZIONISTS WILL BE VIGOROUSLY CONDEMNING THAT STATE -- RIGHT ALONG WITH ISRAEL -- TOO.
BUT WHEN WE DO, I DON'T WANT YOU, AND OTHER ZIONISTS, AROUND US!
In the meantime, go be a hypocritical *CRYBABY* somewhere else.
Poor hapless little Israel. Always the victim, never the victimizer.
--"...while NOT spending a PROPORTIONATE amount of time yelling about the TWENTY-SOMETHING MUSLIM STATES with HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of people and demand that they too be broken up..."
Actually, all Arab countries are states of their citizens not states in which Muslims have superior rights. Most have Islam as there official religion but there are no laws which discriminate against non-Muslims as there are laws in Israel which discriminate against non-Jews (just like South Africa was not a state of its citizens but a state with superior rights for its white citizens).
Israel exists today as the only state not for its citizens but has legalized discrimination enshrined in law against it's non-Jewish citizens.
Also, Arab countries *have* been broken up by the historic Western Imperialist nations: Britain and France. And now the US and Israel are maintaining that status quo.
Most Arabs wanted one Arab nation without borders but this is an Israeli and American nightmare scenario because they might actually then be able to defend themselves from slaughter and use their resources for their own benefit.
Most knowledgable activists also oppose the US supported regimes in Arab countries which repress their own people. But none of those regimes receives the $6 Billion in annual aid that Israel receives from our tax money. It is this aid that necessitates we address this issue because it is being done in our names.
But most pro-Israeli ethnic cleansing activists (aka Zionists) would prefer everyone just shut up about what they're doing in Palestine and keep paying Israel's bills and providing it diplomatic cover (without which, Israel's ethnic cleansing could not continue and Israelis might actually have security because the conflict would have ended).
But increasing their borders come what may, damn the consequences, is all Zionists seem to care about.
--"...while NOT spending a PROPORTIONATE amount of time yelling about the TWENTY-SOMETHING MUSLIM STATES with HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of people and demand that they too be broken up..."
Actually, all Arab countries are states of their citizens not states in which Muslims have superior rights. Most have Islam as there official religion but there are no laws which discriminate against non-Muslims as there are laws in Israel which discriminate against non-Jews (just like South Africa was not a state of its citizens but a state with superior rights for its white citizens).
Israel exists today as the only state not for its citizens but has legalized discrimination enshrined in law against it's non-Jewish citizens.
Also, Arab countries *have* been broken up by the historic Western Imperialist nations: Britain and France. And now the US and Israel are maintaining that status quo.
Most Arabs wanted one Arab nation without borders but this is an Israeli and American nightmare scenario because they might actually then be able to defend themselves from slaughter and use their resources for their own benefit.
Most knowledgable activists also oppose the US supported regimes in Arab countries which repress their own people. But none of those regimes receives the $6 Billion in annual aid that Israel receives from our tax money. It is this aid that necessitates we address this issue because it is being done in our names.
But most pro-Israeli ethnic cleansing activists (aka Zionists) would prefer everyone just shut up about what they're doing in Palestine and keep paying Israel's bills and providing it diplomatic cover (without which, Israel's ethnic cleansing could not continue and Israelis might actually have security because the conflict would have ended).
But increasing their borders come what may, damn the consequences, is all Zionists seem to care about.
Apart from bellowing "liar", "lying", and the wee "moron"
bit I note Israel supporters (such as Steve above) are also constantly suggesting that everyone who disagrees with them seek mental help.
And sure enough, there's Steve telling "Zionists: You Reap What you Sow" to seek psychotherapy. Talk about predictability! In fact, boring predictability!
Incidentally, "Zionists: You Reap what you Sow", this was quite the piece! Learned, emphatic, insightful, at times amusing, and highly readable. Hope to hear more from you here.
Oh, and, Steve, I note you dragged me into the Iraqi thread specifically by name just now.
Let me tell you something. If I'm staying on this Board, and I intend to if the editors have no objections, then I shall abide by the rules. A thread dealing with Iraq has nothing to do with "the conflict".
So if you're waiting for a response, you can wait 'til the cows come home, along with everything else.
>INDIA is about 100 times bigger than Israel, so you should be spending 100X of your time ranting that hindus must break up their hindu state
The key factor, at least to we American taxpayers, is not Israel's size, vis a vis India, the extent to which our tax dollars pay for each's atrocities. That determines the amount of our personal guilt.
The key factor, at least to we American taxpayers, is not Israel's size, vis a vis India, the extent to which our tax dollars pay for each's atrocities. That determines the amount of our personal guilt.
*BOOO-HOOO-HOOO*...!!
' WE'RE PICKIN' ON 'EM 'CAUSE THEY'RE *JEWS*...!! '
*BOOO-HOOO*...!!
"India, Pakistan..."? Well, Israel gets about 1,000 times more money from our government and gets a 1,000 times more news & entertainment media airtime, thanks to its propanganda dissemination and censorship lobby. If anything, we should be complaining MORE!
*BOOO-HOOO*...!!
[squeezing out tear-drenched beach towel into oversized bucket!]
' WE'RE PICKIN' ON 'EM 'CAUSE THEY'RE *JEWS*...!! '
*BOOO-HOOO*...!!
"India, Pakistan..."? Well, Israel gets about 1,000 times more money from our government and gets a 1,000 times more news & entertainment media airtime, thanks to its propanganda dissemination and censorship lobby. If anything, we should be complaining MORE!
*BOOO-HOOO*...!!
[squeezing out tear-drenched beach towel into oversized bucket!]
Yelling and screaming and dragging David Duke into the piece (naturally) and whatever else you can think of is not impressing anyone.
If anyone is lying here, mister, it is not myself.
And you know what? I bet you a damn I care more about jews than you do. And I care more about non jews, and peoples of any and all cultures and religions. People are people first, and strange as this may be for you to swallow, no one is any more important in the scheme of things than the other. We are, after all, created equal.
I would expect you to be upset with the comments of "Zionists: You reap what you sow" because he is letting you know how totally brainwashed you are, and how far removed your nonsensical ramblings are from reality.
Uri Avnery is a jew living in Israel, and for the past many many decades he's been vilified, attacked, had his newspaper offices destroyed by arson, was branded a liar, a traitor and barely escaped with his life following an assassination attempt back in the mid seventies. He even had both his hands broken because he dared to criticize the Kibieh massacre for heaven's sakes.
The peoples of Palestine were not responsible for this criminal behaviour against Uri Avnery. No, it was the jews in Israel beating up on one of their own.
And you have the nerve to come on here and prattle about your precious little terrorist state. Prattle about keeping jews safe. From whom? Where? In the US?
I would like to think that there are a lot more people like Uri Avnery and Israel Shamir, jewish people, living in Israel with a sense of decency, a vision of peace with justice and honour.
That is something no one will ever say about you and your cohorts who are trying to rewrite history and toss out the much used anti-semitism bit whenever people offer a different and more realistic view. This attitude is not going to change anything.
So why don't you take up needle point or something equally innocous, something that you can do without having to open your mouth and let us all see how biased you are.
There are a lot of facts surrounding the 1967 Israeli attack on Syria and Egypt than you're stating here. Considering up until recent history Israel and its supporters were accusing Egypt and Syria (and anyone else) of starting said war. Now we hear from you and your pals that it was a "pre-emptive" strike. Give it another decade and hopefully the truth will be known.
Oh, and while you're about it, go talk to Scottie or someone. If you think I'm going to be responding to you for the rest of the evening, NOT!
If anyone is lying here, mister, it is not myself.
And you know what? I bet you a damn I care more about jews than you do. And I care more about non jews, and peoples of any and all cultures and religions. People are people first, and strange as this may be for you to swallow, no one is any more important in the scheme of things than the other. We are, after all, created equal.
I would expect you to be upset with the comments of "Zionists: You reap what you sow" because he is letting you know how totally brainwashed you are, and how far removed your nonsensical ramblings are from reality.
Uri Avnery is a jew living in Israel, and for the past many many decades he's been vilified, attacked, had his newspaper offices destroyed by arson, was branded a liar, a traitor and barely escaped with his life following an assassination attempt back in the mid seventies. He even had both his hands broken because he dared to criticize the Kibieh massacre for heaven's sakes.
The peoples of Palestine were not responsible for this criminal behaviour against Uri Avnery. No, it was the jews in Israel beating up on one of their own.
And you have the nerve to come on here and prattle about your precious little terrorist state. Prattle about keeping jews safe. From whom? Where? In the US?
I would like to think that there are a lot more people like Uri Avnery and Israel Shamir, jewish people, living in Israel with a sense of decency, a vision of peace with justice and honour.
That is something no one will ever say about you and your cohorts who are trying to rewrite history and toss out the much used anti-semitism bit whenever people offer a different and more realistic view. This attitude is not going to change anything.
So why don't you take up needle point or something equally innocous, something that you can do without having to open your mouth and let us all see how biased you are.
There are a lot of facts surrounding the 1967 Israeli attack on Syria and Egypt than you're stating here. Considering up until recent history Israel and its supporters were accusing Egypt and Syria (and anyone else) of starting said war. Now we hear from you and your pals that it was a "pre-emptive" strike. Give it another decade and hopefully the truth will be known.
Oh, and while you're about it, go talk to Scottie or someone. If you think I'm going to be responding to you for the rest of the evening, NOT!
Steve: "To read the EXACT SAME VIEWS...DIRECTLY IN LINE...on this topic go to david duke's official website. ...I know you wish Israel had lost and [***]the jews[***] been wiped out, but IT DIDN"T HAPPEN! YOu're a liar!"
(C'mon, Steve! Don't start RANTING!! Poor guy is *LOSING* it. He's becoming a total *wackjob*. I'm sorry that he's so bitter about the Palestinians not being wiped out--and even non-Palestinians in the West standing up for and with them--that he intentionally spread lies about every aspect of the situation. You can see above that he's like an *insane* CRAZED RANTING dog, which is why he is moving further and further away from a rational view He's obviously in need of psychotherapy. ...Wow, the guy really needs to seek some mental help! Crouched down in his basement, lights dim so "THE **JEW-HATERS**" can't see him, drooling on himself, eyes tight, shaking back and forth in a FURIOUS rage, occasionally stopping his typing to yell at imaginary monsters--***JEW-HATERS***--***EVERYWHERE***--flying all around the room?)
OHHH.... **BOOO-HOOO-HOOO**...!! I'M *STILLL* CRYING!!!
I *TOLD* YOU! ' WE'RE PICKIN' ON 'EM 'CAUSE THEY'RE **JEWS**!! '
(To read the "EXACT SAME" parallel views on Zionism--substitute Zionist for Aryan--go to Mein Kampf.
[After all, Nazism was just "self-determination" and "a homeland of their own" for ethnic Germans, "Apartheid" was just "self-determination" and "a homeland of their own" for Afrikaner whites, "Jim Crow" was just "self-determination" and "a nation of and for their own" for white-American Segregationists, etc...]
That's why Jews like Jeffrey Blankfort, Norman Finkelstein, Lenni Brenner, Stanford Professor Joel Beinin, Middle East Children's Alliance Director Barbara Lubin, radio journalist Dennis Bernstein, Bay Area labor activist Steve Zeltzer, activist-attorney and peace activist Osha Neumann, Jewish anti-Nazi Holocaust survivor and resistance fighter Luara Richek, and numerous other morally evolved, nationally and locally pominent Jews *OPPOSE* ZIONISM.)
Angie, hold Steve's hand..., you can see he's really just scared, paranoid and neurotic! Don't make any inadvertant sudden moves or loud noises around him. Put a soft, warm, snuggly blanket around him... Tell him it'll be alright... Tell him that Jews in Israel can live like normal decent human beings without a supremacist "Jewish state" 'to protect them', 'yeah'. They can ride the buses and commuter trains..., go to the movies, the discos, have coffee at cafes, go to outdoor pedestrian shopping malls, with their *entire* family(and all return home alive!)..., live in equality..., even with Arabs and Muslims all around them! Just like Jews do in the U.S. and Canada and, especially, the Bay Area! (And, shhhh..., Angie..., qui-et-ly get Steve some mental help. [Snicker, snicker, snicker...!])
(C'mon, Steve! Don't start RANTING!! Poor guy is *LOSING* it. He's becoming a total *wackjob*. I'm sorry that he's so bitter about the Palestinians not being wiped out--and even non-Palestinians in the West standing up for and with them--that he intentionally spread lies about every aspect of the situation. You can see above that he's like an *insane* CRAZED RANTING dog, which is why he is moving further and further away from a rational view He's obviously in need of psychotherapy. ...Wow, the guy really needs to seek some mental help! Crouched down in his basement, lights dim so "THE **JEW-HATERS**" can't see him, drooling on himself, eyes tight, shaking back and forth in a FURIOUS rage, occasionally stopping his typing to yell at imaginary monsters--***JEW-HATERS***--***EVERYWHERE***--flying all around the room?)
OHHH.... **BOOO-HOOO-HOOO**...!! I'M *STILLL* CRYING!!!
I *TOLD* YOU! ' WE'RE PICKIN' ON 'EM 'CAUSE THEY'RE **JEWS**!! '
(To read the "EXACT SAME" parallel views on Zionism--substitute Zionist for Aryan--go to Mein Kampf.
[After all, Nazism was just "self-determination" and "a homeland of their own" for ethnic Germans, "Apartheid" was just "self-determination" and "a homeland of their own" for Afrikaner whites, "Jim Crow" was just "self-determination" and "a nation of and for their own" for white-American Segregationists, etc...]
That's why Jews like Jeffrey Blankfort, Norman Finkelstein, Lenni Brenner, Stanford Professor Joel Beinin, Middle East Children's Alliance Director Barbara Lubin, radio journalist Dennis Bernstein, Bay Area labor activist Steve Zeltzer, activist-attorney and peace activist Osha Neumann, Jewish anti-Nazi Holocaust survivor and resistance fighter Luara Richek, and numerous other morally evolved, nationally and locally pominent Jews *OPPOSE* ZIONISM.)
Angie, hold Steve's hand..., you can see he's really just scared, paranoid and neurotic! Don't make any inadvertant sudden moves or loud noises around him. Put a soft, warm, snuggly blanket around him... Tell him it'll be alright... Tell him that Jews in Israel can live like normal decent human beings without a supremacist "Jewish state" 'to protect them', 'yeah'. They can ride the buses and commuter trains..., go to the movies, the discos, have coffee at cafes, go to outdoor pedestrian shopping malls, with their *entire* family(and all return home alive!)..., live in equality..., even with Arabs and Muslims all around them! Just like Jews do in the U.S. and Canada and, especially, the Bay Area! (And, shhhh..., Angie..., qui-et-ly get Steve some mental help. [Snicker, snicker, snicker...!])
Angie: [To Zionists, Steve]"That is something no one will ever say about you and your cohorts who are trying to rewrite history"
--You mean "who are trying to [sadly] **REPEAT** history"!
--This time with, ironically and sadly, Zionist Jews as the oppressors.
Unfortunately, the human moral lesson is that being oppressed *per se*--alone--doesn't guarantee one an evolved moral consciousness. It could also mean that one *could* become so intensely self-preoccupied and self-centered, so calcified to the suffering of others, that they, in turn, scorn or oppress others. It could also mean that those among the oppressed want to perpetuate the cycle of ethnic conquest of, ethnic supremacy over, and ethnic subjugation of others. The same old tragic cycle of history, but with a new people. It could mean that they too can again fall victim to those among them--who like all-too-fallible or morally-deficient humans of any ethnicity--were always out for cynical, crass political power and wealth of their own, were always out to get--LITERALLY--what other conquerers had (the whole nine yards, as we say), and who were willing to cynically exploit the suffering of even their own people to get it.
( *Hi-i*...!! How's the weather out there? We're having another hot day today here. Wish I could be at the beach! Wasn't my previous post above to Steve funny!? Hope it gave you a good, evening chuckle! Haha! xox! )
:-)
--You mean "who are trying to [sadly] **REPEAT** history"!
--This time with, ironically and sadly, Zionist Jews as the oppressors.
Unfortunately, the human moral lesson is that being oppressed *per se*--alone--doesn't guarantee one an evolved moral consciousness. It could also mean that one *could* become so intensely self-preoccupied and self-centered, so calcified to the suffering of others, that they, in turn, scorn or oppress others. It could also mean that those among the oppressed want to perpetuate the cycle of ethnic conquest of, ethnic supremacy over, and ethnic subjugation of others. The same old tragic cycle of history, but with a new people. It could mean that they too can again fall victim to those among them--who like all-too-fallible or morally-deficient humans of any ethnicity--were always out for cynical, crass political power and wealth of their own, were always out to get--LITERALLY--what other conquerers had (the whole nine yards, as we say), and who were willing to cynically exploit the suffering of even their own people to get it.
( *Hi-i*...!! How's the weather out there? We're having another hot day today here. Wish I could be at the beach! Wasn't my previous post above to Steve funny!? Hope it gave you a good, evening chuckle! Haha! xox! )
:-)
Cut & Paste:
Steve: "To read the EXACT SAME VIEWS...DIRECTLY IN LINE...on this topic go to david duke's official website. ...I know you wish Israel had lost and [***]the jews[***] been wiped out, but IT DIDN"T HAPPEN! YOu're a liar!"
Steve: Look at the guy above, still yelling and ranting like a crazed lunatic. Yet still being dishonest and making absurd comparisons.
?: Steve, are you talking to yourself? Again?
Steve: "To read the EXACT SAME VIEWS...DIRECTLY IN LINE...on this topic go to david duke's official website. ...I know you wish Israel had lost and [***]the jews[***] been wiped out, but IT DIDN"T HAPPEN! YOu're a liar!"
Steve: Look at the guy above, still yelling and ranting like a crazed lunatic. Yet still being dishonest and making absurd comparisons.
?: Steve, are you talking to yourself? Again?
Steve: "Look at them. They can't respond."
?: May be you just can't hear.
?: May be you just can't hear.
" Unfortunately, the human moral lesson is that being oppressed *per se*--alone--doesn't guarantee one an evolved moral consciousness. It could also mean that one *could* become so intensely self-preoccupied and self-centered, so calcified to the suffering of others, that they, in turn, scorn or oppress others. "
That is very true. Not only is that what sometimes happens it is what USUALLY happens.
So if you see an opressed people the solution is not to give them power and hope that they can in turn return their opression. Depending on the opressor they are often worst than their oppressors given the chance.
for example hamas and co would certainly be worse than israel if you gave them control. You have to be pretty desperate to pick someone driven insane by revenge as an oppressed person as your next president.
Therefore mindlyesly suppporting the oppressed is a bad straegy
That is very true. Not only is that what sometimes happens it is what USUALLY happens.
So if you see an opressed people the solution is not to give them power and hope that they can in turn return their opression. Depending on the opressor they are often worst than their oppressors given the chance.
for example hamas and co would certainly be worse than israel if you gave them control. You have to be pretty desperate to pick someone driven insane by revenge as an oppressed person as your next president.
Therefore mindlyesly suppporting the oppressed is a bad straegy
Scottie: "So if you see an opressed people the solution is not to give them power and hope that they can in turn return their opression. Depending on the opressor they are often worst than their oppressors given the chance. ...Therefore mindlyesly suppporting the oppressed is a bad straegy."
Response: REMEMBER THIS ALL YOU ZIONISTS! *SCOTTIE* SAID THIS!
And Scottie, are you also making the anti-Semitic argument that we should have let Hitler finish off the Jews, because there were those, the Begins, the Itzshak Shamirs, the Ben Gurions, the Sharons, etc., among them, the oppressed, driven by an insane avenging desire to hold the gun and conquer and oppress others?
[Also, anti-Jewish anti-Semitism: Zionists are Not Equal To all Jews; anti-Arab anti-Semitism: HAMAS is Not Equal To all Palestinians.]
HAMAS
Response: REMEMBER THIS ALL YOU ZIONISTS! *SCOTTIE* SAID THIS!
And Scottie, are you also making the anti-Semitic argument that we should have let Hitler finish off the Jews, because there were those, the Begins, the Itzshak Shamirs, the Ben Gurions, the Sharons, etc., among them, the oppressed, driven by an insane avenging desire to hold the gun and conquer and oppress others?
[Also, anti-Jewish anti-Semitism: Zionists are Not Equal To all Jews; anti-Arab anti-Semitism: HAMAS is Not Equal To all Palestinians.]
HAMAS
We appologize for any non sequiturs this has caused. If you are a different "Steve" and you feel your post has been removed unfairly, please write to us at:
imc-sf-editorial [at] lists.indymedia.org
Include the URL. We will review on a case by case basis. Sometimes collateral damage does occur.
See:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/01/1556221_comment.php#1556637
We appologize for any collateral damage.
imc-sf-editorial [at] lists.indymedia.org
Include the URL. We will review on a case by case basis. Sometimes collateral damage does occur.
See:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/01/1556221_comment.php#1556637
We appologize for any collateral damage.
RE: [Also, anti-Jewish anti-Semitism: Zionists are Not Equal To all Jews; anti-Arab anti-Semitism: HAMAS is Not Equal To all Palestinians.]
The syntax may have been misleading. Of course I meant to connote that to believe that Zionists equals all Jews or that HAMAS equals all Palestinians is anti-Jewish or anti-Palestinian anti-Semitism.
I hope this is clearer.
(Btw, poor Steve.)
The syntax may have been misleading. Of course I meant to connote that to believe that Zionists equals all Jews or that HAMAS equals all Palestinians is anti-Jewish or anti-Palestinian anti-Semitism.
I hope this is clearer.
(Btw, poor Steve.)
"See, it's "racist" of jews to want their own state, yet it's for some reason not "racist" for muslims to want 20-something muslim states, or for hindus to have a hindu state, etc."
Those of us who are more informed are tired of hearing you Zionists spout this same LAME 'argument' over and over and over.
LET'S SEE IF YOU CAN GET THIS INTO YOUR HEAD:
THERE IS NO STATE THAT POLITICALLY AND LEGALLY DEFINES ITSELF ON THE BASIS OF ONE ETHNIC GROUP ALONE (THAT'S ETHNIC-SUPREMCACY) AND DEFINES ITSELF AS THE STATE OF ALL IT'S ETHNICITIES THROUGHOUT THE WORLD FOR ALL TIME ETERNAL, RATHER THAN THE STATE OF ALL THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN IT!
(NOT EVEN IRELAND, ETC., DEFINES ITSELF AS THE STATE OF ALL ETHNIC IRISH PEOPLE IN IRELAND AND THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.)
DID I SAY THAT CLEARLY ENOUGH FOR YOU NOT TO TRY TO SQUIGGLE OUT OF IT?
IF SO, THEN TAKE YOUR ZIONIST CRYBABY ASS SOMEWHERE ELSE!
Those of us who are more informed are tired of hearing you Zionists spout this same LAME 'argument' over and over and over.
LET'S SEE IF YOU CAN GET THIS INTO YOUR HEAD:
THERE IS NO STATE THAT POLITICALLY AND LEGALLY DEFINES ITSELF ON THE BASIS OF ONE ETHNIC GROUP ALONE (THAT'S ETHNIC-SUPREMCACY) AND DEFINES ITSELF AS THE STATE OF ALL IT'S ETHNICITIES THROUGHOUT THE WORLD FOR ALL TIME ETERNAL, RATHER THAN THE STATE OF ALL THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN IT!
(NOT EVEN IRELAND, ETC., DEFINES ITSELF AS THE STATE OF ALL ETHNIC IRISH PEOPLE IN IRELAND AND THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.)
DID I SAY THAT CLEARLY ENOUGH FOR YOU NOT TO TRY TO SQUIGGLE OUT OF IT?
IF SO, THEN TAKE YOUR ZIONIST CRYBABY ASS SOMEWHERE ELSE!
Those of us who are REALLY informed are tired of hearing you antisemites spout this same LAME 'argument' over and over and over.
LET'S SEE IF YOU CAN GET THIS INTO YOUR HEAD:
THERE **IS** AT LEAST ONE ARAB STATE THAT POLITICALLY AND LEGALLY DEFINES ITSELF ON THE BASIS OF ***ONE*** ETHNIC GROUP ALONE (THAT'S ETHNIC-SUPREMCACY)!!! ##### IT'S CALLED S-A-U-D-I A-R-A-B-I-A ###### !!!!!!!!!
(EVEN IRELAND GIVES ALL ETHNIC GERMANS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD A *PREFERENCIAL*, **DISCRIMINATORY**, ***RACIST*** "RIGHT" TO SETTLE IN IT!!!)
DID I SAY THAT CLEARLY ENOUGH FOR YOU NOT TO TRY TO SQUIGGLE OUT OF IT?!?!?!
IF SO, THEN TAKE YOUR ANTISEMITIC CRYBABY ASS SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!!
LET'S SEE IF YOU CAN GET THIS INTO YOUR HEAD:
THERE **IS** AT LEAST ONE ARAB STATE THAT POLITICALLY AND LEGALLY DEFINES ITSELF ON THE BASIS OF ***ONE*** ETHNIC GROUP ALONE (THAT'S ETHNIC-SUPREMCACY)!!! ##### IT'S CALLED S-A-U-D-I A-R-A-B-I-A ###### !!!!!!!!!
(EVEN IRELAND GIVES ALL ETHNIC GERMANS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD A *PREFERENCIAL*, **DISCRIMINATORY**, ***RACIST*** "RIGHT" TO SETTLE IN IT!!!)
DID I SAY THAT CLEARLY ENOUGH FOR YOU NOT TO TRY TO SQUIGGLE OUT OF IT?!?!?!
IF SO, THEN TAKE YOUR ANTISEMITIC CRYBABY ASS SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!!
Response: REMEMBER THIS ALL YOU ZIONISTS! *SCOTTIE* SAID THIS!
Yes, so? remember it applies more so to the palistinians than it does to the jews.
And Scottie, are you also making the anti-Semitic argument that we should have let Hitler finish off the Jews, because there were those, the Begins, the Itzshak Shamirs, the Ben Gurions, the Sharons, etc., among them, the oppressed, driven by an insane avenging desire to hold the gun and conquer and oppress others?
- No I am not.. moron.
You are kind of stupid aren't you.
Why dont you read what I said REALLY slowly....
"[Also, anti-Jewish anti-Semitism: Zionists are Not Equal To all Jews; anti-Arab anti-Semitism: HAMAS is Not Equal To all Palestinians.]"
- If you set up a new country you never hand over power to the "people" as a whole you hand it over to a certain group of people in that country. The lefties on here would surely understand that situation of power not being in the hands of the average person particularly in a place like palestine.
So your point is based on a false assumption and is therefore irrelevant so I need not adress it further.
Yes, so? remember it applies more so to the palistinians than it does to the jews.
And Scottie, are you also making the anti-Semitic argument that we should have let Hitler finish off the Jews, because there were those, the Begins, the Itzshak Shamirs, the Ben Gurions, the Sharons, etc., among them, the oppressed, driven by an insane avenging desire to hold the gun and conquer and oppress others?
- No I am not.. moron.
You are kind of stupid aren't you.
Why dont you read what I said REALLY slowly....
"[Also, anti-Jewish anti-Semitism: Zionists are Not Equal To all Jews; anti-Arab anti-Semitism: HAMAS is Not Equal To all Palestinians.]"
- If you set up a new country you never hand over power to the "people" as a whole you hand it over to a certain group of people in that country. The lefties on here would surely understand that situation of power not being in the hands of the average person particularly in a place like palestine.
So your point is based on a false assumption and is therefore irrelevant so I need not adress it further.
"THERE **IS** AT LEAST ONE ARAB STATE THAT POLITICALLY AND LEGALLY DEFINES ITSELF ON THE BASIS OF ***ONE*** ETHNIC GROUP ALONE (THAT'S ETHNIC-SUPREMCACY)!!! ##### IT'S CALLED S-A-U-D-I A-R-A-B-I-A ###### !!!!!!!!! "
Oh *dummmmy* ...(another Zionist dummy who boldly and proudly displays it)...., Saudi Arabia is named after a FAMILY, not an ethnic group.
(Also "?", a very adamant ant-Zionist, already exists. Maybe you should choose another screen symbol, unless you have finally gotten some brains and some moral consciousness and have become an adamant anti-Zionist too.)
Speaking of dummy, I see that Scottie is driveling on...
Oh *dummmmy* ...(another Zionist dummy who boldly and proudly displays it)...., Saudi Arabia is named after a FAMILY, not an ethnic group.
(Also "?", a very adamant ant-Zionist, already exists. Maybe you should choose another screen symbol, unless you have finally gotten some brains and some moral consciousness and have become an adamant anti-Zionist too.)
Speaking of dummy, I see that Scottie is driveling on...
Your 'intellect' underwhelms us.
(Have you ever noticed that when these Zionist knuckleheads lose an argument and make utter absolute fools of themselves, like the absolutely *ridiculous* argument that Saudi Arabia was named after--get this!--an *ethnic* group(!), then these self-centered, fist-waving, foot-stomping Zionist sandbox crybabies throw yet another fit, like: "anti-israel people...crazed, ranting idiots, frothing at the mouth...MORONS..., blah, blah, blah..."? Zionist crybabies can't stand to be wrong, can they? If anti-Zionists are "frothing", I guess that Zionist crybabies are positively *foaming* at the mouth! It's always amazing that these Zionists can't see the very behavior they accuse others of as flagrantly exhibited in their own.)
(Have you ever noticed that when these Zionist knuckleheads lose an argument and make utter absolute fools of themselves, like the absolutely *ridiculous* argument that Saudi Arabia was named after--get this!--an *ethnic* group(!), then these self-centered, fist-waving, foot-stomping Zionist sandbox crybabies throw yet another fit, like: "anti-israel people...crazed, ranting idiots, frothing at the mouth...MORONS..., blah, blah, blah..."? Zionist crybabies can't stand to be wrong, can they? If anti-Zionists are "frothing", I guess that Zionist crybabies are positively *foaming* at the mouth! It's always amazing that these Zionists can't see the very behavior they accuse others of as flagrantly exhibited in their own.)
WTF: "MEMO TO YOU MORONS: Your lives won't improve should your dream of taking Israel away from the Jews become a reality. Neither will the lives of 99% of the [Palestinian] Arabs."
Response: Oh no? I think that the $6-10+ billion dollars *per year*--*every year*--that we sent to support a Jewish-supremacist, apartheid state for "the Jews" (as though there weren't non-Jewish indigenous people already living there, now over 1million Palestinians in Israel 'itself' and another 3 or so million in the rest of Palestine, 'Greater Israel'), oppressing others, could be better spent here at home. (Plus the additional billions upon billions of dollars on our military presence there to protect and prop up that, by definition, racist state.) Or if we spent it helping a multicultural Palestine with equal national, civil, political, legal and ethnic rights for ALL establish itself as an economically flowering country. Or as MLK said about all the billions upon billions of dollars spent on the Vietnam War (over half-a-*trillion* dollars by the end of the war), "Oh what lives we could transform, if we spent that money on the poor at home [or, I'd also say, in a multicultural Palestine]."
And ALL our lives will improve by eliminating the resentment, and the danger from that resentment, that Israel as "a Jewish state" rightfully (if, debatably, not all the methods employed) causes. Global justice improves ALL our lives as both a moral and a practical matter. 9-11 shows what happens when we let Western injustices, racism and arrogance run roughshod over the world.
But when your Zionist attitude is so clinically, pathologically self-centered on (Israeli) Jews alone and "a Jewish state", then I can understand why you can't see that.
'Sorry', WTF, you Zionists are spectacularly *wrong* again!
Response: Oh no? I think that the $6-10+ billion dollars *per year*--*every year*--that we sent to support a Jewish-supremacist, apartheid state for "the Jews" (as though there weren't non-Jewish indigenous people already living there, now over 1million Palestinians in Israel 'itself' and another 3 or so million in the rest of Palestine, 'Greater Israel'), oppressing others, could be better spent here at home. (Plus the additional billions upon billions of dollars on our military presence there to protect and prop up that, by definition, racist state.) Or if we spent it helping a multicultural Palestine with equal national, civil, political, legal and ethnic rights for ALL establish itself as an economically flowering country. Or as MLK said about all the billions upon billions of dollars spent on the Vietnam War (over half-a-*trillion* dollars by the end of the war), "Oh what lives we could transform, if we spent that money on the poor at home [or, I'd also say, in a multicultural Palestine]."
And ALL our lives will improve by eliminating the resentment, and the danger from that resentment, that Israel as "a Jewish state" rightfully (if, debatably, not all the methods employed) causes. Global justice improves ALL our lives as both a moral and a practical matter. 9-11 shows what happens when we let Western injustices, racism and arrogance run roughshod over the world.
But when your Zionist attitude is so clinically, pathologically self-centered on (Israeli) Jews alone and "a Jewish state", then I can understand why you can't see that.
'Sorry', WTF, you Zionists are spectacularly *wrong* again!
Response: REMEMBER THIS ALL YOU ZIONISTS! *SCOTTIE* SAID THIS! (ref. Aug 25, 6:27pm).
Scottie: "Yes, so? remember it applies more so to the *palistinians* than it does to the jews."
Response: And that's why you're a racist Jew.
(Prediction: Although like all racists, I'm sure that you have your racist 'justifications' that you will try to come up with for this.)
Scottie: "Yes, so? remember it applies more so to the *palistinians* than it does to the jews."
Response: And that's why you're a racist Jew.
(Prediction: Although like all racists, I'm sure that you have your racist 'justifications' that you will try to come up with for this.)
Scottie: "- If you set up a new country you never hand over power to the "people" as a whole you hand it over to a certain group of people in that country."
So, Israel wasn't handed over to even Jews - as a whole - or to all the people of Palestine as a whole (that's obvious): just to "a certain group of people [to *certain* Jews]". You mean, the overtly racist Jewish terrorists - the Irgun, the Stern gang, Begin, Shamir, Ben Gurion, etc.
Now, I understand. Especially because I know that *not* even all Jews (the 6% indigenous ones) who lived in, or others who immigrated to, Palestine were in favor of setting up "a Jewish state". They believed in, at least, a more equal society and couldn't be used by the Western imperialists (Britain, France, and the U.S.). So, that's why Palestine wasn't handed over to them, right Scottie?
So, Israel wasn't handed over to even Jews - as a whole - or to all the people of Palestine as a whole (that's obvious): just to "a certain group of people [to *certain* Jews]". You mean, the overtly racist Jewish terrorists - the Irgun, the Stern gang, Begin, Shamir, Ben Gurion, etc.
Now, I understand. Especially because I know that *not* even all Jews (the 6% indigenous ones) who lived in, or others who immigrated to, Palestine were in favor of setting up "a Jewish state". They believed in, at least, a more equal society and couldn't be used by the Western imperialists (Britain, France, and the U.S.). So, that's why Palestine wasn't handed over to them, right Scottie?
"Response: And that's why you're a racist Jew. "
OK shall I explain it to you then. israel has existed for 50 odd years therefore the argument is no longer relevant. I could also adress other issues related to that but that in itself explains my comment.
"So, that's why Palestine wasn't handed over to them, right Scottie? "
You have not made a logical connection between your points please try harder next time.
OK shall I explain it to you then. israel has existed for 50 odd years therefore the argument is no longer relevant. I could also adress other issues related to that but that in itself explains my comment.
"So, that's why Palestine wasn't handed over to them, right Scottie? "
You have not made a logical connection between your points please try harder next time.
Zionists: You REAP what you SOW! & now i understand
You are projecting a racist person who exists within your head onto me and then trying to argue with him.
You really should try and get over your own self hatred.
for example why did you artificially add the "jews are always right" assumption to my argument and then try to argue with it?
You are projecting a racist person who exists within your head onto me and then trying to argue with him.
You really should try and get over your own self hatred.
for example why did you artificially add the "jews are always right" assumption to my argument and then try to argue with it?
Scottie: "OK shall I explain it to you then. israel has existed for 50 odd years therefore the argument is no longer relevant."
No longer relevant to a racist Jew like *YOU*.
(*Prediction*: Although like all racists, I'm sure that you have your racist 'justifications' that you will try to come up with for this.)
And that's why YOU, SCOTTIE, ARE A RACIST JEW.
Scottie [to N.I.U.]: "You have not made a logical connection between your points please try harder next time."
That's because you don't have a logical connection in your brain.
No longer relevant to a racist Jew like *YOU*.
(*Prediction*: Although like all racists, I'm sure that you have your racist 'justifications' that you will try to come up with for this.)
And that's why YOU, SCOTTIE, ARE A RACIST JEW.
Scottie [to N.I.U.]: "You have not made a logical connection between your points please try harder next time."
That's because you don't have a logical connection in your brain.
No longer relevant to a racist Jew like *YOU*.
- A) I am not a jew..
B) please come up with a better argument than that ..you arent even making a logical point
"That's because you don't have a logical connection in your brain. "
care to share some proof of why you are a super logical being with the ability to read the minds of people 8000 odd kilometers away over the net?
- A) I am not a jew..
B) please come up with a better argument than that ..you arent even making a logical point
"That's because you don't have a logical connection in your brain. "
care to share some proof of why you are a super logical being with the ability to read the minds of people 8000 odd kilometers away over the net?
>No longer relevant to a racist Jew like *YOU*.
Scottie: "I am not a jew.."
I see: you're just a NUT!
Scottie: "I am not a jew.."
I see: you're just a NUT!
...by definition.
THERE **IS** AT LEAST ONE ARAB STATE THAT POLITICALLY AND LEGALLY DEFINES ITSELF ON THE BASIS OF ***ONE*** ETHNIC GROUP ALONE (THAT'S ETHNIC-SUPREMCACY)!!! ##### IT'S CALLED S-A-U-D-I A-R-A-B-I-A ###### !!!!!!!!!
Idiooooot!
So what if that country is named after the House of Saud?
You are too moronic to grasp Saudi Arabia POLITICALLY AND LEGALLY DEFINES ITSELF ON THE BASIS OF ***ONE*** ETHNIC GROUP ALONE - MUSLIM ARABS????!!!!
This fact pokes a big hole in your "anti-Zionist" propaganda shield and it won't go away no matter how much you continue to lob shit at the "Zionists".
Furthermore, (correction of what seems to have been a typing error on "?" behalf)
[JUST LIKE ISRAEL] EVEN GERMANY GIVES ALL ETHNIC GERMANS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD A *PREFERENCIAL*, **DISCRIMINATORY**, ***RACIST*** "RIGHT" TO SETTLE IN IT!!!
As for "?" posting a "Zionist" message, perhaps s/he momentarily strayed from the loony fact-denying "anti-Zionist" path. Anyway, that was an intriguing moment of witnessing him/her admitting a true fact at odds with his/her crazed anti-Israeli bias.
Idiooooot!
So what if that country is named after the House of Saud?
You are too moronic to grasp Saudi Arabia POLITICALLY AND LEGALLY DEFINES ITSELF ON THE BASIS OF ***ONE*** ETHNIC GROUP ALONE - MUSLIM ARABS????!!!!
This fact pokes a big hole in your "anti-Zionist" propaganda shield and it won't go away no matter how much you continue to lob shit at the "Zionists".
Furthermore, (correction of what seems to have been a typing error on "?" behalf)
[JUST LIKE ISRAEL] EVEN GERMANY GIVES ALL ETHNIC GERMANS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD A *PREFERENCIAL*, **DISCRIMINATORY**, ***RACIST*** "RIGHT" TO SETTLE IN IT!!!
As for "?" posting a "Zionist" message, perhaps s/he momentarily strayed from the loony fact-denying "anti-Zionist" path. Anyway, that was an intriguing moment of witnessing him/her admitting a true fact at odds with his/her crazed anti-Israeli bias.
Hey bevie -- rhymes with *DUMMY*!
YOU JUST GO ON THINKING THAT "THE IBN SAUDS", ' LONG FOR "SAUD" ', IS THE NAME OF AN ETHNIC GROUP.
BE SURE AND TELL EVERYONE YOU MEET!
(especially any world history teachers, Mideast professors or Arab scholars that you know)
HAHAHA...!!
YOU JUST GO ON THINKING THAT "THE IBN SAUDS", ' LONG FOR "SAUD" ', IS THE NAME OF AN ETHNIC GROUP.
BE SURE AND TELL EVERYONE YOU MEET!
(especially any world history teachers, Mideast professors or Arab scholars that you know)
HAHAHA...!!
I was looking back up at the original Zionist HUGE mental BLOOPER (and the response) on this matter...
I guess to be consistent with that post...
YOU JUST GO ON THINKING THAT "THE SAUDIS" IS THE NAME OF AN ETHNIC GROUP -- THE ONE THAT LIVES IN SAUDI ARABIA!
BE SURE AND TELL EVERYONE YOU MEET! *EVERYONE*!
(especially any world history teachers, Mideast professors or Arab scholars that you know)
So, you've got the ethnic Germans, the ethnic Italians, the ethnic Irish, AND THE ETHNIC SAUDIS!
TELL IT *JUST* *LIKE* *THAT*!
HAHAHA...!!
I guess to be consistent with that post...
YOU JUST GO ON THINKING THAT "THE SAUDIS" IS THE NAME OF AN ETHNIC GROUP -- THE ONE THAT LIVES IN SAUDI ARABIA!
BE SURE AND TELL EVERYONE YOU MEET! *EVERYONE*!
(especially any world history teachers, Mideast professors or Arab scholars that you know)
So, you've got the ethnic Germans, the ethnic Italians, the ethnic Irish, AND THE ETHNIC SAUDIS!
TELL IT *JUST* *LIKE* *THAT*!
HAHAHA...!!
YOU JUST KEEP ***DENYING*** REALITIES WHICH ARE TOO PAINFUL FOR YOU TO FACE UP TO, WHILE ATTRIBUTING ME SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAN I CLAIMED.
I WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED IF YOU HAVE LEARNED THIS DIVERSIONARY TACTIC FROM THE WAHABBI ARAB MIDEAST PROFESSORS AND OTHER SCHOLARS YOU KNOW!!
I WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED IF YOU HAVE LEARNED THIS DIVERSIONARY TACTIC FROM THE WAHABBI ARAB MIDEAST PROFESSORS AND OTHER SCHOLARS YOU KNOW!!
"bevie": " [JUST LIKE ISRAEL] EVEN GERMANY GIVES ALL ETHNIC GERMANS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD A *PREFERENCIAL*, **DISCRIMINATORY**, ***RACIST*** "RIGHT" TO SETTLE IN IT!!! "
Ironic, isn't it?
Ironic, isn't it?
Debate coach: "An ad hominem is not a rebuttal."
Boy, remember the days when "debate coach" used to at least have the _pretext_ of objectivity? Count the ad hominems in JA's recent rounds of spew, and then count the number of times "debate coach" has called him out on it.
But that Indybay editorial policy is egregiously one-sided -- that's far from being news.
@%<
Boy, remember the days when "debate coach" used to at least have the _pretext_ of objectivity? Count the ad hominems in JA's recent rounds of spew, and then count the number of times "debate coach" has called him out on it.
But that Indybay editorial policy is egregiously one-sided -- that's far from being news.
@%<
To the "anti-Zionist" lunatic above
by bevie Wednesday August 27, 2003 at 02:41 AM:
"I WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED IF YOU HAVE LEARNED THIS DIVERSIONARY TACTIC FROM THE WAHABBI ARAB MIDEAST PROFESSORS AND OTHER SCHOLARS YOU KNOW!!"
Translation:
*DAMMMN*...!! HE COUNTERED WITH *FACTS* AND SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE!!
THAT'S A *DIVERSION* ALL RIGHT -- FROM MY FALLACIOUS ELISIONS [I WISH I KNEW WHAT "ELISIONS", AND "FALLACIOUS", MEAN], POLEMICAL TWISTS [I WISH I KNEW WHAT "POLEMICAL" MEANS], AND SQUIGGLY ZIONIST PURPOSE [AT LEAST I KNOW WHAT "SQUIGGLY" MEANS - WE ZIONISTS LIKE TO ENGAGE IN SQUIGGLY LOGIC ALL THE TIME (I WISH I KNEW WHAT "LOGIC" MEANS)]!
NOW [SPEAKING OF DIVERSIONS AND AD HOMINEMS (ALL THE ONES *ONLY* WE ZIONISTS, LIKE "CRITICAL 'THINKER' " (now banned), USUALLY USE, LIKE "ASSWIPE", "FUCKTARD", *"CRETIN"*, ETC.)] I BETTER ACCUSE HIM OF BEING THE STUDENT OF WAHABBI PROFESSORS!
I JUST HATE IT WHEN ANT-ZIONISTS CAN THROW IT RIGHT BACK - *TWICE* AS EFFECTIVELY - AND REALLY FUNNY - RIGHT IN OUR FACES - MAKING MAJOR *FOOLS* OF US - IN FRONT OF *EVERYBODY* - WITHOUT EVEN BEING SCATOLOGICAL OR PORNOGRAPHIC LIKE WE ZIONISTS ARE. [I WISH I KNEW WHAT "SCATOLGICAL" MEANS, ALTHOUGH YOU'D THINK I NATURALLY WOULD.]
by bevie Wednesday August 27, 2003 at 02:41 AM:
"I WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED IF YOU HAVE LEARNED THIS DIVERSIONARY TACTIC FROM THE WAHABBI ARAB MIDEAST PROFESSORS AND OTHER SCHOLARS YOU KNOW!!"
Translation:
*DAMMMN*...!! HE COUNTERED WITH *FACTS* AND SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE!!
THAT'S A *DIVERSION* ALL RIGHT -- FROM MY FALLACIOUS ELISIONS [I WISH I KNEW WHAT "ELISIONS", AND "FALLACIOUS", MEAN], POLEMICAL TWISTS [I WISH I KNEW WHAT "POLEMICAL" MEANS], AND SQUIGGLY ZIONIST PURPOSE [AT LEAST I KNOW WHAT "SQUIGGLY" MEANS - WE ZIONISTS LIKE TO ENGAGE IN SQUIGGLY LOGIC ALL THE TIME (I WISH I KNEW WHAT "LOGIC" MEANS)]!
NOW [SPEAKING OF DIVERSIONS AND AD HOMINEMS (ALL THE ONES *ONLY* WE ZIONISTS, LIKE "CRITICAL 'THINKER' " (now banned), USUALLY USE, LIKE "ASSWIPE", "FUCKTARD", *"CRETIN"*, ETC.)] I BETTER ACCUSE HIM OF BEING THE STUDENT OF WAHABBI PROFESSORS!
I JUST HATE IT WHEN ANT-ZIONISTS CAN THROW IT RIGHT BACK - *TWICE* AS EFFECTIVELY - AND REALLY FUNNY - RIGHT IN OUR FACES - MAKING MAJOR *FOOLS* OF US - IN FRONT OF *EVERYBODY* - WITHOUT EVEN BEING SCATOLOGICAL OR PORNOGRAPHIC LIKE WE ZIONISTS ARE. [I WISH I KNEW WHAT "SCATOLGICAL" MEANS, ALTHOUGH YOU'D THINK I NATURALLY WOULD.]
To the "anti-Zionist" lunatic above
by bevie Wednesday August 27, 2003 at 02:41 AM:
"I WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED IF YOU HAVE LEARNED THIS DIVERSIONARY TACTIC FROM THE WAHABBI ARAB MIDEAST PROFESSORS AND OTHER SCHOLARS YOU KNOW!!"
Translation:
*DAMMMN*...!! HE COUNTERED WITH *FACTS* AND SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE!!
THAT'S A *DIVERSION* ALL RIGHT -- FROM MY FALLACIOUS ELISIONS [I WISH I KNEW WHAT "ELISIONS", AND "FALLACIOUS", MEAN], POLEMICAL TWISTS [I WISH I KNEW WHAT "POLEMICAL" MEANS], AND SQUIGGLY ZIONIST PURPOSE [AT LEAST I KNOW WHAT "SQUIGGLY" MEANS - WE ZIONISTS LIKE TO ENGAGE IN SQUIGGLY LOGIC ALL THE TIME (I WISH I KNEW WHAT "LOGIC" MEANS)]!
NOW [SPEAKING OF DIVERSIONS AND AD HOMINEMS (ALL THE ONES *ONLY* WE ZIONISTS, LIKE "CRITICAL 'THINKER' " (now banned), USUALLY USE, LIKE "ASSWIPE", "FUCKTARD", *"CRETIN"*, ETC.)] I BETTER ACCUSE HIM OF BEING THE STUDENT OF WAHABBI PROFESSORS!
I JUST HATE IT WHEN ANT-ZIONISTS CAN THROW IT RIGHT BACK - *TWICE* AS EFFECTIVELY - AND REALLY FUNNY - RIGHT IN OUR FACES - MAKING MAJOR *FOOLS* OF US - IN FRONT OF *EVERYBODY* - WITHOUT EVEN BEING SCATOLOGICAL OR PORNOGRAPHIC LIKE WE ZIONISTS ARE. [I WISH I KNEW WHAT "SCATOLGICAL" MEANS, ALTHOUGH YOU'D THINK I NATURALLY WOULD.]
by bevie Wednesday August 27, 2003 at 02:41 AM:
"I WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED IF YOU HAVE LEARNED THIS DIVERSIONARY TACTIC FROM THE WAHABBI ARAB MIDEAST PROFESSORS AND OTHER SCHOLARS YOU KNOW!!"
Translation:
*DAMMMN*...!! HE COUNTERED WITH *FACTS* AND SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE!!
THAT'S A *DIVERSION* ALL RIGHT -- FROM MY FALLACIOUS ELISIONS [I WISH I KNEW WHAT "ELISIONS", AND "FALLACIOUS", MEAN], POLEMICAL TWISTS [I WISH I KNEW WHAT "POLEMICAL" MEANS], AND SQUIGGLY ZIONIST PURPOSE [AT LEAST I KNOW WHAT "SQUIGGLY" MEANS - WE ZIONISTS LIKE TO ENGAGE IN SQUIGGLY LOGIC ALL THE TIME (I WISH I KNEW WHAT "LOGIC" MEANS)]!
NOW [SPEAKING OF DIVERSIONS AND AD HOMINEMS (ALL THE ONES *ONLY* WE ZIONISTS, LIKE "CRITICAL 'THINKER' " (now banned), USUALLY USE, LIKE "ASSWIPE", "FUCKTARD", *"CRETIN"*, ETC.)] I BETTER ACCUSE HIM OF BEING THE STUDENT OF WAHABBI PROFESSORS!
I JUST HATE IT WHEN ANT-ZIONISTS CAN THROW IT RIGHT BACK - *TWICE* AS EFFECTIVELY - AND REALLY FUNNY - RIGHT IN OUR FACES - MAKING MAJOR *FOOLS* OF US - IN FRONT OF *EVERYBODY* - WITHOUT EVEN BEING SCATOLOGICAL OR PORNOGRAPHIC LIKE WE ZIONISTS ARE. [I WISH I KNEW WHAT "SCATOLGICAL" MEANS, ALTHOUGH YOU'D THINK I NATURALLY WOULD.]
Maybe this is of some interest.
http://www.islamic-state.org/saudi/racism.shtml
"Saudi Arabia is not an Islamic State -
The civil code is based on racism and nationalism
The civil code of Saudi Arabia discriminates according to national origin. Local customs and traditions have been mixed with the social fabric to produce a mutated social order full of stifling customs and double standards that turn many Muslims away from Islam, particularly women and youth."
elsewhere on the site (to show it isnt an israeli propoganda site)
"Today the Muslims are earnestly working and eagerly waiting for a day in the very near future when the non-Islamic systems of ruling occupying the Muslim lands are removed, to be replaced by the re-establishment of the Khilafah, by the will of Allah (swt)."
Amnesty international says
"Everyone in Saudi Arabia is at risk of human rights violations. However, foreign nationals, particularly those from poorer countries in the Middle East, Africa and Asia, are especially vulnerable to abuse.
Many migrant workers suffer at the hands of their employers, on whom they are completely dependent. Some are not paid. Some are beaten. Some are raped. If arrested, foreign nationals may be deceived or coerced into signing a confession in Arabic, a language they may not understand. They are frequently tortured and ill-treated. They are more likely than Saudi Arabians to be sentenced to death and the judicial punishments of flogging and amputation.
They are forced to suffer in silence and solitude. They are given no information about the system that will decide their fate and sometimes no clue as to the nature of that fate, even if it is the death penalty. They are usually denied prompt contact with their friends, family or consular officials, and are never allowed legal representation in court. Almost all of them lack the support, influence or money to seek pardon, commutation or reduction of their sentence."
""Abdullah Orders Saudization of 21 More Sectors"
Arab News
"In a significant move aimed at creating at least 200,000 jobs for Saudis, Crown Prince Abdullah, deputy premier and commander of the National Guard, has ordered a government committee to work out the modalities for replacing foreign workers in 21 different job sectors with Saudis."
"They include retail jobs in such areas as readymade clothing, children’s toys, furniture, electrical and household appliances, car showrooms, auto spare parts, construction materials and mobile phones."
"The Arabic newspaper said Labor and Social Affairs Minister Dr. Ali Al-Namlah had already proposed a gradual replacement of expatriate workers employed in these jobs over the next three years."
Oh wait "anti-zionist" says there is no racism in Saudi Arabia because the country is named after a family talk about logic!
http://www.islamic-state.org/saudi/racism.shtml
"Saudi Arabia is not an Islamic State -
The civil code is based on racism and nationalism
The civil code of Saudi Arabia discriminates according to national origin. Local customs and traditions have been mixed with the social fabric to produce a mutated social order full of stifling customs and double standards that turn many Muslims away from Islam, particularly women and youth."
elsewhere on the site (to show it isnt an israeli propoganda site)
"Today the Muslims are earnestly working and eagerly waiting for a day in the very near future when the non-Islamic systems of ruling occupying the Muslim lands are removed, to be replaced by the re-establishment of the Khilafah, by the will of Allah (swt)."
Amnesty international says
"Everyone in Saudi Arabia is at risk of human rights violations. However, foreign nationals, particularly those from poorer countries in the Middle East, Africa and Asia, are especially vulnerable to abuse.
Many migrant workers suffer at the hands of their employers, on whom they are completely dependent. Some are not paid. Some are beaten. Some are raped. If arrested, foreign nationals may be deceived or coerced into signing a confession in Arabic, a language they may not understand. They are frequently tortured and ill-treated. They are more likely than Saudi Arabians to be sentenced to death and the judicial punishments of flogging and amputation.
They are forced to suffer in silence and solitude. They are given no information about the system that will decide their fate and sometimes no clue as to the nature of that fate, even if it is the death penalty. They are usually denied prompt contact with their friends, family or consular officials, and are never allowed legal representation in court. Almost all of them lack the support, influence or money to seek pardon, commutation or reduction of their sentence."
""Abdullah Orders Saudization of 21 More Sectors"
Arab News
"In a significant move aimed at creating at least 200,000 jobs for Saudis, Crown Prince Abdullah, deputy premier and commander of the National Guard, has ordered a government committee to work out the modalities for replacing foreign workers in 21 different job sectors with Saudis."
"They include retail jobs in such areas as readymade clothing, children’s toys, furniture, electrical and household appliances, car showrooms, auto spare parts, construction materials and mobile phones."
"The Arabic newspaper said Labor and Social Affairs Minister Dr. Ali Al-Namlah had already proposed a gradual replacement of expatriate workers employed in these jobs over the next three years."
Oh wait "anti-zionist" says there is no racism in Saudi Arabia because the country is named after a family talk about logic!
...the big Zionist cretins pile!
They can't help themselves.
So now Scottie supports the utterly ridiculous, absolutely ignorant, cretinous Zionist claim that Saudi Arabia is named after the ethnic "Saudis". Is that so, Scottie boy?
ARE YOU, SCOTTIE, GOING TO *AGREE*, OR *DISAGREE*, WITH YOUR IGNORANT ZIONIST COHORTS ABOVE, LIKE "bevie"?
(I guess that he/she won't be using *that* screen name again! But then blatant ignorance has never stopped Scottie from using his.)
AND HOW ABOUT THIS ZIONIST GEM?:
" (EVEN *IRELAND* -- [*?*?*?*?*?*] -- GIVES ALL ETHNIC GERMANS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD A *PREFERENCIAL*, **DISCRIMINATORY**, ***RACIST*** "RIGHT" TO SETTLE IN IT!!!) " (by ? Tuesday August 26, 2003 at 12:05 AM)
[Also "?", a very adamant ant-Zionist, already exists. Maybe you should choose another screen symbol, unless you have finally gotten some brains and some moral consciousness and have become an adamant anti-Zionist too.]
Scottie: "Maybe this is of some interest." [Scottie's lengthy cut & paste screed -- and *what* 'surprising' information! Hey Scottie, what does Amnesty Int'l say about *Israel*?]
(Scottie, nothing you write "is of [any] interest" -- especially when it's a *non sequitur*.)
They can't help themselves.
So now Scottie supports the utterly ridiculous, absolutely ignorant, cretinous Zionist claim that Saudi Arabia is named after the ethnic "Saudis". Is that so, Scottie boy?
ARE YOU, SCOTTIE, GOING TO *AGREE*, OR *DISAGREE*, WITH YOUR IGNORANT ZIONIST COHORTS ABOVE, LIKE "bevie"?
(I guess that he/she won't be using *that* screen name again! But then blatant ignorance has never stopped Scottie from using his.)
AND HOW ABOUT THIS ZIONIST GEM?:
" (EVEN *IRELAND* -- [*?*?*?*?*?*] -- GIVES ALL ETHNIC GERMANS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD A *PREFERENCIAL*, **DISCRIMINATORY**, ***RACIST*** "RIGHT" TO SETTLE IN IT!!!) " (by ? Tuesday August 26, 2003 at 12:05 AM)
[Also "?", a very adamant ant-Zionist, already exists. Maybe you should choose another screen symbol, unless you have finally gotten some brains and some moral consciousness and have become an adamant anti-Zionist too.]
Scottie: "Maybe this is of some interest." [Scottie's lengthy cut & paste screed -- and *what* 'surprising' information! Hey Scottie, what does Amnesty Int'l say about *Israel*?]
(Scottie, nothing you write "is of [any] interest" -- especially when it's a *non sequitur*.)
Go back and show us where anyone besides yourself said "Saudi Arabia is named after the ethnic "Sauds""?
Seems to me you are using a tactic known as a STRAW MAN argument.
then you spend several posts trying to point out how saudi is not a race.
"ARE YOU, SCOTTIE, GOING TO *AGREE*, OR *DISAGREE*, WITH YOUR IGNORANT ZIONIST COHORTS ABOVE, LIKE "bevie"?"
It seems you dont have a clear grasp on what they said so you really need to deal with your issues there before we move on. If you can construct a meaningful argument we will proceed from there.
"" (EVEN *IRELAND* -- [*?*?*?*?*?*] -- GIVES ALL ETHNIC GERMANS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD A *PREFERENCIAL*, **DISCRIMINATORY**, ***RACIST*** "RIGHT" TO SETTLE IN IT!!!) " (by ? Tuesday August 26, 2003 at 12:05 AM)"
I dont know and dont really care abourt Irelands immigration policies but if you want to prove him wrong please do, otherwise what point are you making here?
"Hey Scottie, what does Amnesty Int'l say about *Israel*?]"
And what does arab news say about israel? see you missed one there.. you must be getting slow.
...You fail to realise the reason why I quoted from those particular sources. the reason was that I have to choose the most anti american etc sources that I can so that you cannot accuse them of being tools of bush etc.
Therefore If I am to argue against you valid sources from your perspective would be arab news fisk pilger or some socialist newsletter. If you are going to use the same sort of evidence against my points you need to use sources like Fox TV CNN etc etc..
Seems to me you are using a tactic known as a STRAW MAN argument.
then you spend several posts trying to point out how saudi is not a race.
"ARE YOU, SCOTTIE, GOING TO *AGREE*, OR *DISAGREE*, WITH YOUR IGNORANT ZIONIST COHORTS ABOVE, LIKE "bevie"?"
It seems you dont have a clear grasp on what they said so you really need to deal with your issues there before we move on. If you can construct a meaningful argument we will proceed from there.
"" (EVEN *IRELAND* -- [*?*?*?*?*?*] -- GIVES ALL ETHNIC GERMANS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD A *PREFERENCIAL*, **DISCRIMINATORY**, ***RACIST*** "RIGHT" TO SETTLE IN IT!!!) " (by ? Tuesday August 26, 2003 at 12:05 AM)"
I dont know and dont really care abourt Irelands immigration policies but if you want to prove him wrong please do, otherwise what point are you making here?
"Hey Scottie, what does Amnesty Int'l say about *Israel*?]"
And what does arab news say about israel? see you missed one there.. you must be getting slow.
...You fail to realise the reason why I quoted from those particular sources. the reason was that I have to choose the most anti american etc sources that I can so that you cannot accuse them of being tools of bush etc.
Therefore If I am to argue against you valid sources from your perspective would be arab news fisk pilger or some socialist newsletter. If you are going to use the same sort of evidence against my points you need to use sources like Fox TV CNN etc etc..
>"ARE YOU, SCOTTIE, GOING TO *AGREE*, OR *DISAGREE*, WITH YOUR IGNORANT ZIONIST COHORTS ABOVE, LIKE "bevie"?"
Scottie: "It seems you dont have a clear grasp on what they said so you really need to deal with your issues there before we move on. If you can construct a meaningful argument we will proceed from there."
Response: C'MON, SCOTTIE BOY...! INSTEAD OF *DODGING* THE QUESTION, WHY *WON'T* YOU *AGREE* WITH YOUR ZIONIST COHORTS? I'M *SURE* THAT "BEVIE" AND THAT OTHER ZIONIST WOULD LOVE FOR YOU TO AGREE WITH HIM/HER! YOU KNOW!: YOUR ZIONIST BRETHREN/SISTEREN?
AREN'T YOU *GONNA*???
AREN'T YOU GONNA SUPPORT "BEVIE" AND THE OTHER ZIONIST IDIOT?
OR ARE YOU AFRAID THAT IT'S GOING TO MAKE YOU LOOK AS *IDIOTIC* (EVEN MORESO THAN USUAL) AS IT MAKES THEM LOOK?
Scottie: "It seems you dont have a clear grasp on what they said so you really need to deal with your issues there before we move on. If you can construct a meaningful argument we will proceed from there."
Response: C'MON, SCOTTIE BOY...! INSTEAD OF *DODGING* THE QUESTION, WHY *WON'T* YOU *AGREE* WITH YOUR ZIONIST COHORTS? I'M *SURE* THAT "BEVIE" AND THAT OTHER ZIONIST WOULD LOVE FOR YOU TO AGREE WITH HIM/HER! YOU KNOW!: YOUR ZIONIST BRETHREN/SISTEREN?
AREN'T YOU *GONNA*???
AREN'T YOU GONNA SUPPORT "BEVIE" AND THE OTHER ZIONIST IDIOT?
OR ARE YOU AFRAID THAT IT'S GOING TO MAKE YOU LOOK AS *IDIOTIC* (EVEN MORESO THAN USUAL) AS IT MAKES THEM LOOK?
"Response: C'MON, SCOTTIE BOY...! INSTEAD OF *DODGING* THE QUESTION"
Speaking of doging the question...Your question appears to have a contradiction in it. Are you asking me to comment on what he actually said or what YOU *think* he said? Answer that and I can answer yours..
Speaking of doging the question...Your question appears to have a contradiction in it. Are you asking me to comment on what he actually said or what YOU *think* he said? Answer that and I can answer yours..
...has left his Zionist fool chums ASS OUT!
GET IT? HE'S **NOT** GOING TO AGREE WITH YOU "BEVIE" & ilk!
'Cause he doesn't want to make a bigger FOOL of himself than he already is!
Scottie, I'm not going to debate you on your dodge. You can answer my question about whether you agree with "bevie" and chum that "Saudis" is the name of an ethnic(!) group or forget it.
So sor', Zios! Looks like you chum Scottie has BAILED!
GET IT? HE'S **NOT** GOING TO AGREE WITH YOU "BEVIE" & ilk!
'Cause he doesn't want to make a bigger FOOL of himself than he already is!
Scottie, I'm not going to debate you on your dodge. You can answer my question about whether you agree with "bevie" and chum that "Saudis" is the name of an ethnic(!) group or forget it.
So sor', Zios! Looks like you chum Scottie has BAILED!
" Scottie, I'm not going to debate you on your dodge. You can answer my question about whether you agree with "bevie" and chum that "Saudis" is the name of an ethnic(!) group or forget it. "
OK then Where did he say that?
or are you LIEING? (again)
OK then Where did he say that?
or are you LIEING? (again)
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